Longest Gaining Phase Ever - Steve & Mike

Summary

---

The Improvement Season Podcast: Longest Gaining Phase Ever – Steve & Mike

Date: July 6, 2026
Hosts: Steve Hall & Mike
Episode Summary by Revive Stronger

---

Overview

In this episode, Steve and Mike dive into the realities of experiencing their longest uninterrupted gaining (muscle-building) phase ever in their bodybuilding careers. They provide candid updates about physical and mental states, reflect on evolving training philosophies, managing injuries, lessons from client experiences, and look ahead to future competition preps—all while maintaining their signature friendly banter. If you've ever wondered what advanced natural bodybuilders encounter during extended off-seasons, this episode will resonate, challenge, and encourage you.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life Updates & Pre-Bali Jitters

• Both hosts share how pre-travel tasks are piling up, causing stress and minor anxiety.
  • Steve admits to being meticulous with planning and lists, sharing packing worries and the desire to finish tasks early ([01:59], [03:21]).
  • Mike confesses to sometimes being more laid back but understands the tension of a burgeoning to-do list ([02:29], [05:33]).
  • Quote: "I want to tick it all off...I way prefer to be ahead of schedule than anywhere close to being behind." – Steve ([01:59])
• They joke about needing travel adapters and laugh about the little things that can go wrong.

2. Dealing with Anxiety & Overthinking

• Honest discussion around stress manifesting inside and outside the gym, especially as they get older.
  • Steve describes his increased anxiety and over-awareness with age, often ruminating during workouts ([06:02]).
  • Mike draws parallels to the classic ‘shower thoughts’ effect—the mind wandering when focused on non-work tasks ([08:59]).
  • Quote: "As a child, it's quite nice to just be, like, this blissfully ignorant thing...as I've got older, like, you talked about anxiety, and I think I've become a more anxious person." — Steve ([06:02])
  • They touch briefly on differences in how men and women process stress, referencing Chris Williamson’s podcast ([12:29]).
  • Steve points out the difficulty in knowing what someone else is going through, referencing a mental health commercial ([10:39]).

3. Training Progress & Adaptations

• Both hosts share micro-updates on their gym sessions, noting the unpredictable relationship between how you feel and performance.
  • Steve recounts surpassing an RDL (Romanian Deadlift) plateau and the challenge of matching intensity each week, while being cautious about injury ([07:05]).
  • Mike highlights a hack squat win even after a rough night’s sleep ([13:41]).
  • Quote: "It's just the ebbs and flows of hard training, man. And it's a good reminder also that how your body, how you feel, isn't always recognizing your performance." — Steve ([15:03])
  • Both agree: Long-term success is about patience and managing expectations, especially with injuries.

4. Injury Management & Program Adjustments

• Steve discusses dealing with patellar tendonitis/TFL issues and explains his decision to modify leg training—switching from the pendulum squat to high-rep extensions and then Smith squats to manage pain ([15:03]).
  • Quote: "I know for a fact that Watson pendulum squat...is very harsh on the knees. I just didn't want to put myself through that or even give myself the opportunity to push through some discomfort." — Steve ([17:29])
• Mike encourages patience and realistic timelines for healing, sharing his own broader-than-expected recovery from shoulder surgery ([18:23]).
  • Mike to listeners: "We're always better off setting the expectation that it's going to take longer...doesn't mean we're not going to be doing anything, but we just...expect it to hang around for longer than we think." ([18:23])
• Both appreciate that bodybuilding allows massive flexibility in exercise selection, which helps with longevity ([19:58]).

5. The Philosophy & Benefits of Long Gaining Phases

• Steve reflects on having his longest single-phase of gaining ever (no mini-cuts, consistent surplus for over a year and a half). This represents a big mindset shift from previous years of frequent dieting ([31:58]).
  • Quote: "This has been the longest gaining phase I've ever had in my entire lifting career...just wild." — Steve ([31:58])
• They agree that sustained training + calorie surplus is crucial for advanced progress, and frequent mini-cuts may not be necessary or even optimal ([32:43]).
  • Steve connects the dots: their series “First Principles of Bodybuilding” boils down to hard training and staying out of deficit ([32:43]).
• Mike applauds the open-mindedness required to update approaches after years in the sport ([33:20]).
• Appetite, workout motivation, and overall enjoyment have been better in this longer gaining phase ([33:44]).

6. Looking Forward: Prep, Coaching, & Competition Timelines

• Steve is weighing up bringing coach Cliff back for his 2027 prep, appreciating the value of familiarity and data, despite small process differences ([24:15], [27:51]).
  • Quote: "There's a lot of benefit if they're a good coach to sticking with them and giving them time to be able to get the most from you." — Steve ([27:51])
• Both plan to cut after their Bali trip, excited to reveal the hard-won muscle under a fresh diet phase ([22:36]).
• Timeline talk: Both are aiming for WNBF Supernaturals (~1 year away), highlighting how far in advance natural competitors need to plan ([23:47], [30:26]).
  • Steve notes it’s “weird” that his off-season is ending already and how quickly time passes ([30:26]).

7. Client Highlights & Coaching Lessons

• Mike shouts out his client Aaron for finishing his first competitive season at PCA Naturals, highlighting incredible condition and composure, regardless of placing ([41:24]).
  • Quote: "The thing I'm most proud of is just how he handled the process... he made my life really easy." — Mike ([42:48])
  • Steve adds that Aaron is an example of how first-timers can set themselves up for big improvements with the right mindset and coach feedback ([42:48]).
• Both recognize coaching is a two-way street: as the coach learns the athlete, the athlete learns the coach, improving outcomes (Steve, [27:51], Mike, [44:28]).

8. Injury Knowledge Tidbit: Tendon Pain & Recovery

• Quick discussion on tendon pain patterns, what happens during sleep/inactivity, and the process of "thixotropy" (stiffness from inactivity, relieved by movement) ([36:54]).
  • Steve shares personal struggles with knee pain after sleep.
  • Mike offers practical advice: isometric holds can help, especially on flights ([39:28]).
  • Encouragement: tendon issues can resolve over time, regardless of how chronic they feel ([40:19]).

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Progress and Patience:
  "It's okay, actually, for weeks on end to just be grooving with a lift...the risk of injury and everything is just not worth trying to take reps that maybe you haven't earned yet." – Steve ([07:05])

• On Injury & Adaptation:
  "I just didn't want to put myself through that or even give myself the opportunity to push through some discomfort...I needed to kind of take some time away." – Steve ([17:29])

• On Advanced Training:
  "It's a good reminder also that how your body, how you feel, isn't always recognizing your performance...you could feel terrible and you might perform great." – Steve ([15:03])

• On The Value of Coaching:
  "There's a lot of benefit if they're a good coach to sticking with them and giving them, like, time to be able to get the most from you." – Steve ([27:51])

• Mike on Client Success:
  "He did everything he possibly could have. You know, he didn't put a foot wrong. He asked questions. He nailed everything to the 'T'. He made my life really easy." – Mike ([42:48])

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:46–04:18 | Bali trip prep & stress discussion | | 06:02–12:29 | Anxiety, mental health & coping as bodybuilders | | 13:41–22:36 | Training progress, surprising good/bad days, injuries| | 15:03–19:58 | Injury modifications, gratefulness for training | | 22:36–25:17 | Dieting excitement, body part talk, pre-prep plans | | 27:51–30:26 | Coaching philosophy, timeline for contest prep | | 31:58–33:44 | Longest gaining phase ever – reflections | | 36:54–40:49 | Tendon pain at night, thixotropy, practical advice | | 41:24–44:59 | Client shout out (Aaron), lessons for coaches |

---

Closing Thoughts

This episode offers a genuine window into the headspace of advanced natural bodybuilders navigating long off-seasons, the patience required for both building muscle and injury management, and the value of openness—both in personal growth and coaching. Steve and Mike’s discussions are honest, practical, and relatable for bodybuilders at any stage.

---

Listener Engagement

• Hosts invite listeners to share if they watched the recent England football game and to send any comments/questions about the episode ([45:42], [45:52]).

---

Next Episode: Focused Q&A – stay tuned as the duo answers listener questions in a special episode, recorded in advance during their trip.

---

Transcript

[A]

As soccer takes center stage this summer, Comcast helps bring the experience home to America. As the exclusive Spanish language home of the tournament in the US Telemundo is set to present its most expansive coverage ever. 700 hours of programming, live on site presence at all 104 matches and with multi view and real time 4K Xfinity will deliver the most innovative and immersive sports viewing experience for fans watching on Telemundo, Peacock, Fox and FS1.

[B]

Learn more at ComcastCorporation.com Happy Magic Monday guys. You are back. Tuned in. Tuning in to your favorite natty BB boys, Super Steve and Magic Mike for another episode. And Steve, how you doing?

[A]

I am not going to say I'm tired, I'm beat up, I'm unwell, I'm doing amazing. I couldn't be better.

[B]

Mike, just given say that because I'd never believe you.

[A]

My normal response, no, I'm good. No, I feel good today. Uh, it's been an amount of stress over the last weeks and I think it's all building into our trip to Bali, which probably the listeners are sick of hearing about. So we'll probably end up talking about it much more. But yeah, I'm, I'm gen genuinely feeling pretty good as of right this moment. Uh, how are you?

[B]

I'm, I'm good. And do you know what? It was quite weird actually because I actually had Monday and Tuesday off for the start of this week. But weirdly, I also felt quite a bit of could call it anxiety or just like a lot of thoughts. Like I knew I had a lot of stuff that I wanted to do as well, which was great. But I could kind of relate a little, just a little bit to kind of some of the stuff that you must be feeling because it was just like, oh, I've got to, got to do this and I've got to sort that out. And you know, again it just, it's so easy for the, the thoughts to escalate quite a lot Overwhelm is the

[A]

feeling that I get is just like this to do. List of just like I got to do this, this, this, but I can't do this till then. And I just want to tick it all off. And I'm don't know about you Mike, but when I was at university for my dissertation, I think on the average person I would talk to, they basically handed in their dissertation at the last minute. Like on the day it was due for me, I think I handed in like two weeks early because I'm not the guy that's just like, I way prefer to be ahead of schedule than anywhere close to being behind.

[B]

I'm. I'm exactly the same as you. I'd always prefer to have my coursework handed in, like weeks, months in advance, so I don't have to worry about it. I'm exactly the same.

[A]

So I think for Bali, I'm going to try and pack most things this weekend so then I don't have to think about it during the week because I'm already. I've got stuff on that Friday where I'm like, I really wish I had that Friday off, but I've got either. Either a podcast with Martin Ruffalo, which is great because I want to record Martin, but that. Or I'm taking Ada to get her scan. It depends if what I can move around and justify and that sort of thing, because they're at the same time, so I can't do both. Physically impossible, was it.

[B]

Oh, you kind of almost wish, like out of invincible or something, you could like astral project your body and be in two places at once or something.

[A]

Yeah, if I could do that, I mean, that would be great because then I wouldn't need to fly to Bali. I could just literally just. I could just fly back and forth myself and just get all the stuff I needed. But yeah, I. I've made a bit of a packing list, but I'm like, I'm gonna forget something. I keep thinking of things like, oh, I need like the. What's it called? The plug that converts. I don't know if I've got what they're called. Adapter. That's the one. Yeah, the adapter. I need to have the right adapter, but I think the one I've got is right. I think. I think so.

[B]

You're so conceived. Because I didn't even think of that until you just mentioned it. I'm like, oh, shit, I haven't probably got a right adapter now. And like, oh, God, like, right, writing it down.

[A]

Write it down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I am that person that tries to think of every little thing I could possibly need and want, probably to the point of excess. But yeah, it's those little things that will catch you out and you'll be like, fuck, why didn't I think of that happen to me? I know it.

[B]

I. The other thing, which I thought because last night, obviously they. Not obviously, but Rascal have been doing a sale and you were saying, like, hey, you can use your code stronger to get 20 off. Obviously that would be. Sadly, yeah, I'm sorry.

[A]

But if you missed out, you need to be following me on social media, on Instagram.

[B]

Exactly. But I. I thought, right, okay, gonna take advantage of the sale. So I bought a few items of clothing, but then I realized, oh, it's not gonna arrive in time before Bali. So I was a bit gutted about that.

[A]

It might do.

[B]

It's always depends, like three to four weeks even from Europe.

[A]

Does it take that long for you?

[B]

It takes a long time.

[A]

I think my. Because I bought some stuff not that long ago, I feel like it came within a week. So you might get lucky and it arrive before you leave because, yeah, that'll be annoying if it arrives whilst you're. These are the sort of things I'm doing. I have on Amazon, some things on subscription, and I'm like, I need to cancel anything that's going to come during the time I'm away. It's like. And it's just this infinite thought of just all these things that I need to potentially try and take care of that I know I'm not going to be able to cover everything. Oh, dear. Such is life.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Again, like, sometimes I just don't even think about that stuff. I would just be like, oh, they're arriving. What will be? What will be? I kind of. Sometimes it's a. It was a bit of a weird one because at the same time I was similar to you, where I'd like to submit coursework far in advance, but then there's other stuff where I kind of. Either don't think about it, I forget, or I just kind of. I'm just a bit happy. Go lucky. I'm just ignorant. Yeah, I know. Naive and ignorant and all of those. All of those things.

[A]

Honestly, I think that's a good thing. I think as I've got older, like, you talked about anxiety and I think I've become a more anxious person as I've got older because I am more aware of life and the things that go on. Whereas as a child, it's quite nice to just be like this blissfully ignorant thing that was just like, yeah, I'm made of plastic and rubber and I can't break and life is great, no one's dying and all of this. It's just. Anyway, I know. What did you train today, Mike?

[B]

Yeah, I trained upper. Well, pretty much every day's upper. Anyway, I still do pull. But one thing, because I had a look at your stories before we jumped on the podcast just now and I saw that you were doing RDLs and that you'd Made a bit of a progression, which I thought was so interesting. It was so interesting, though, because literally this time last week you had that funny episode with the hamstring and it kind of being tingly, and I thought, ah. And yeah, so I don't know what you thought.

[A]

I was aware of that that had happened, but I didn't feel it on warming up. So I was just like, I feel good, I feel strong. Let's go through this. But I'm definitely at that. You know when you've got, like, when you've been training as long as we have and you're doing like a lift that you've done a lot and you're pushing to 0rar. Like, I know. I'm like, I got an extra rep on my last set from last week and from two weeks ago. Like, I'd been holding the same reps, 11, 10, 9, 11, 10, 9. And this week I got 11, 10, 10. I was just. I just wanted that repeat. And I think it was. I think I took it okay. I think I deserved that repetition. But I. Sometimes I have to remind myself to just be patient. It's okay, actually for weeks on end to just be grooving with a lift, especially something like an rdl, something that's a big compound lower body lift. Like, the risk of injury and everything is just not worth trying to take reps that maybe you haven't earned yet. So, yeah, it's just a reminder to me. But also I wonder if I might quite like lowering the rep average rep range that I'm in for it. I just. It was something about going above 10 reps that just started to feel. I was like. I feel like I could keep going, but also I'm like, not gassed out, but I'm just. I'd like maybe lower reps with that. I also have been finding, as I said last week, feeling a bit anxious in the gym for whatever reason, it's the time when all my thoughts come to my head and I like, it's not productive. I got quite anxious within the set for itself. Like, you know when. I don't know, you get a bit tingly almost, and you get like those just your heart's racing a little bit. I was like that. I just built it up in my head a little bit. So I think that threw me off. It's just. I don't know, my brain at the moment is not aligning with my body and how I want my body to go. So it's just frustrating. But, yeah, they. They went fine.

[B]

Do you think. Do you think there's also. Because I was kind of almost thinking, you know that situation where, you know, your thoughts come to you when you're in the shower and those sites of things. Do you think it's because maybe during the day when you're doing, like, client check, you're focused on that, and then because you're in the gym and you give your chance for your brain to kind of, like, empty, that's when actually all the thoughts then come to the forefront.

[A]

I think it is that I think it ends up allowing me to ruminate because I think a lot of people like the gym because it's their time and they can kind of switch off to the world and stressors. That happens for me, but only when I'm like, in the last four reps of a set. But the reps are for that because they're like loads of reps in reserve. Like, my head and my mind, unfortunately, can wander. So the good news is I'm still performing. I'm still in a good place. It's just. Yeah, I've been finding more often when I've got. We talk about all the time. Stress is. Stress is stress. Outside life. Stress is starting to come into the gym for me, which is just unfortunate. And I'm hoping I get better at dealing with these things. And also once the big trip, that is Bali and everything that's going on for that, once we get home and I have nothing for a while, I'll be able to just like, decompress a little bit and chill out because, yeah, it's not good for me. I know it. I know it's not good for me. And that doesn't help, though. Like, it's not something I can just switch off, you know, I wish I could.

[B]

Yeah. I. I think one thing that, again, is similar with flying, you do you hide it well, if. If that makes sense. Because, like, I think to the outside eye you'd think, oh, nothing wrong with Steve. But you don't realize that all of this stuff is, you know, going on underneath. So. Yeah.

[A]

Have you seen that advert? I forget what it's for, but it's like those two guys that every week they meet up at a football match and they kind of talk to one another and they're like, oh, how are you? And there's one guy there, he's always there, and he's not really saying anything much. So you think something's not quite right with him mentally. He's going through something, but I think I'm remembering It. Right. But then there's one week where that guy's there, the guy that mentally you think something's not quite right, and he's like, oh, where's the guy who always comes and says hello to me and like, how are you? He's not turning up because I don't know if he committed suicide or something along those lines. He's now no longer around because he was going through something that no one could see. So you're right. Like, people are going through things and you just don't know. It's tough. I'm. And I feel like I'm one of the people that's better at vocalizing it. Like, I kind of wear my heart on my sleeve. I don't kind of keep things to myself too much, but even I. Yeah. Hold some stuff in, I guess.

[B]

Yeah. I would say it reminds me of. I've heard that how there's a difference maybe between how males and females kind of support each other and vocalize things. Like, I've heard, like, typically males will. They prefer to, like, process things via tasks. So I've heard of like, man groups where they'll do things like build a shed. And it's through that building of a shed or doing something hands on that they kind of bond and then maybe after a few sessions they start to kind of like, open up and talk about things. Whereas maybe with females it's kind of they're happy just like sitting, having a drink and then chatting about stuff. So I don't know if there's much truth to that or whether that's just a very stereotypical thing, but something I've heard of. And I thought, oh, that's kind of interesting.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I really don't know. But I have heard something similar. I think it was on Chris Williamson's podcast where they talked about our men need to go to therapy more and, like, take care of themselves. It was almost like putting the blame on men. It's like. But therapy that he was making the case. I'm not saying this is correct, but he was making the case that, like, therapy for women works. Therapy for men often isn't what they need. And I think that speaks to what you're saying. So I don't know, but it's one of those. It's not an area of dime expert in at all. And I'm not trying to say, like, I've got mental health issues, so on and so forth. I've just seen how I feel like just being very honest. Like, I'VE been getting some of that, but today was better than yesterday. And yeah, I just, I, like I said, I think it's just this build up and I build stuff up in my head. It's the same with the, the vaccination and the needles and like this thing coming into my body. I just start thinking about all the things that could go wrong and the next step, the next step, the next step. And being out of control seems to be the big thing of it. So. But yeah, I know once we've got our way to Bali landed and like we're there, chill out completely. I just know it always happens.

[B]

Definitely one thing coming back to training for a second as well. I actually had a bit of a similar week as well because I think listeners will remember last week I, on the hack squats, I had a set where I just like really got quite aroused and I got quite stimulated and I only matched reps. But then again, similarly this week I some, I just beat performance. Like it was really weird because I, when I got into the set I was like, you know when you sometimes second guess yourself and you think, have I loaded this right? And I was kind of almost thought, thinking that for the first few reps and then I got 13 and I checked the weight and stuff. I was like, oh, it's the same. And it's just, it's amazing how when your body just adapts and it's just like someone has just flipped a switch and you just go. And interestingly as well, on the day that that happened, I woke up that morning and I felt quite shit, to be honest with you. I woke up and I was like, I feel like, I feel like I've been hit by a bus type thing. I could sleep for like another hour if I wanted to. So it was just, I found it so interest interesting how that happened this week again and again. It just, that's why when I saw your story earlier, just a second ago, that I thought, Steve looks like Steve's had a slightly similar week to me. Maybe in some senses, maybe not quite,

[A]

not as good as that, not, not quite as good as that. But it's a good reminder. It's just the ebbs and flows of hard training, man. It's. And it's a good reminder also that how your body, how you feel, isn't always recognizing your performance. So you could feel amazing, you might not perform amazing, you could feel terrible and you might perform great. It's just you set the conditions for allowing the body to perform with what it's got for that day. And you don't like, set unnecessary expectations on yourself. I think it is a good way to go about things. One thing I will mention about my training that I had to be smart about modification today is I just felt my patellar tendonitis and the TFL had been regressing. Really unfortunate. I don't know what happened. I think I kind of did it to myself somehow. When I spoke out and said, hey, I haven't felt my TFL for a while. And then that started to get worse and then my potential, I was like, oh, my knees are feeling better. And then they started to get worse. So I'm not entirely sure what happened, but I just felt that I had been maybe pushing through some things that hasn't been productive for me. So I made a quite a big modification today where after my rdls, I would just go into my pendulum squats. I was just like, I know for a fact that Watson pendulum squat that I've got people notoriously say it's like very harsh on the knees. And I just didn't want to put myself through that or even give myself the opportunity to push through some discomfort my knees. So I decided, right, what would I do with a client? I would get them pre fatiguing the quads. So I moved to leg extension, did high rep. It was disgusting. I haven't done like high rep, like really high rep leg extensions first, where you have to like pushing through that burn. Like, I, it's horrible. Anyway, they, they were just. Every set I was like jumping out of the seat, like, this is so painful. So that was fun. But they felt good. Like, it felt really good. It felt good to get my knees warm. And I was like, I'm just gonna move away from the pendulum for a bit because I don't feel similar to when I moved away from the hack. It just wasn't feeling like it was a good relationship anymore. I needed to kind of take some time away. But for whatever reason, as I've said before, the hack squat was, seemed to irritate my tfl, so I didn't want to go to that. And then I tried the lying leg press. And I don't know if I, I, I'm not sure if that's even a go as well. So I was like, what actually allow. What's the next degree of freedom I can give myself still with stability and not knowing back squats? All right, I can do a Smith machine squat. So I did like a quad bias Smith machine squat. Now fingers crossed. They felt good in the moment. And I could only go really light on them and they almost turn into a bit of a lengthened partial or soft lockout because of when your hips are set forward, like more under you and your feet are forward. It just naturally, you don't really feel like coming up and locking out. It just. Anyone who's done them, if you remember doing them yourself, Mike, it just. You get into a position where it's like, it's naturally. Doesn't make sense to come all the way up. Anyway, I. They felt good, so hopefully they continue to feel good and I can start progressing with them because I'm cognizant that I've like. There's bits of my program that have stayed very stable with leg training, but I've made a number of swaps recently. I'm like, it's annoying me that I can't like, set and progress. And that's why I want to get back to. Because, yeah, it's. We know the issue with switching things all the time.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. It's. Yeah, it is so frustrating. Hopefully it's something. I mean, fingers crossed over the next 24, 48 hours, there's no negative responses and you can just build on this moving forwards. And again, it. It was. It's a message that I feel has just come up a lot. I think I was having a lot of conversations with patients in the clinic on Wednesday where it was just setting that expectation that things are going to take longer than you think. And I had a. I've got a client, Megan, who's been on the podcast. She. She's recently had dental surgery, so she's has a wisdom teeth removed and she's had like a bone graft and stuff. And I think it just kind of hit her how long, you know, the recovery, the process was longer than she thought it might be. And also similarly, unfortunately, she's had a bit of an infection and stuff as well, which is not great, but it's just. I think we're always better off setting the expectation that it's going to take longer. And again, me with my shoulder. There was me in the hospital when it first happened and they said, hey, this could be like three months of healing. And I'm like, no way. I'm going to come back faster than that. Lo and behold, nine to 10 months later, I'm out of, you know, I'm kind of back to full training like nine to ten months later. And I think it's just. It's horrible. It's so shit thinking like, this could take A while. But we've got to just keep reminding ourselves that that doesn't mean we're not going to be doing anything but we just, hey, expect it to hang around for longer than we think.

[A]

I'm just grateful I can still train.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why I'm really great. The fact I can still stimulate and that's why I'm so grateful that bodybuilding is just such a permissive endeavor in regards to I don't have to barbell, back squat. I can do anything that can tax my quads and there's so many routes to stimulating the quads. So I'm just grateful that at the moment, fingers crossed it maintains that way. But I would like to see things get better again because I felt like I was on that road and it feels like it's taken a step. But I know patellar tendonitis, like there's probably listeners who have got it and like I knew people that had it and they chronically have it and I've obviously chronically had it now too. Part of that is my own problem because I don't ever back off. Right. It would probably be helped if I backed off a little bit. Like I drive a lot of volume through them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if it was enough where I needed to do that, like I did for a period of time. But that was more. My TFL was doing the blood flow restriction training for an extended period of time. I think coming back to Bali, Bali will for both of us be a bit of a deload because. Not that we won't be training and training really hard, especially for the camp itself, but volume will be stripped in half probably. Yeah. I imagine. At least just because we won't have the time to do our typical sessions which I think will probably be good for both of us. Not that I think there's like if I think it would be good for us, why wouldn't I say do that? It's like I wouldn't program that because I don't think that's the best route to growth. I just think it long term is going to set us up nicely for returning and yeah, when you're always pushing, sometimes being forced to pull back is. Can be beneficial for you and it will just be an opportunity to learn as well. Like hey, really refining things, coming back to lower amounts of volume. There was something I was going to say in response to what you said there and I couldn't think what it was as well. It's gone out of my head. Oh, the thing I've been Thinking about it recently, Mike, I don't know if you feel about this at all for yourself, but I guess you don't share your physique progress as often as me. But I get a lot of compliments on my arms. And the thing I'm really eager for for myself, just as like a personal thing that I want is stripping back the fat to unveil the hard work I've actually put through the legs because I just thinking about how much time and effort and pain I've gone through to kind of try and grow them, I know they're going to be so much better. So I just can't wait to, like, unveil that because unfortunately, they don't. I don't have the shape of the legs and they're not as flashy a muscle as arms and they obviously, a lot of us hold more body fat there, so you don't see the separation and things. So, yeah, I'm just kind of excited for that. I don't know if you've thought about your diet at all and you're excited at all for stripping back.

[B]

Do you know what? It's so weird you said that, actually, because I think I literally was thinking of it last night and I was thinking of how I'm just excited to see what's underneath. Unfortunately, I think it's kind of. We've got problems in reverse. Like, I sometimes feel like my arms just. Like I just see no progress. Sometimes I look at them and I go like, I've got noodles for arms. What's going on? I'm trying so hard here, you know, but, you know, but fortunately, I've got, like, little meat stumps of legs, so I've got, like little cocktail sausages for legs. So I don't have as much, you know, space to fill them out. So it's not so bad. But. But no, I'm really excited and actually I'm going to take some progress pictures this weekend, so I'll have that banked for, like, pre Bali, and then obviously I'm going into a cut when we get back, so. So, yeah, no, I'm super excited because also, I think the thing is, time's going to fly by so quickly. We're both on, like, similar timelines now, I think. So we'll finish the cut and then it'll be, what, like maybe four or five months before going into a prep?

[A]

Something like that. Yeah, my timeline's a little different because we're both aiming for at the moment, I only have that one show in my. My Calendar and I think that's the main show you're aiming for too is the Supernaturals with the wnbf. But because I'm a bit closer to stage weight, my timeline is a little different to yours but pretty similar to be honest. Yeah, it's. And I have to think about. Because we spoke about. Actually we got a question, didn't we, about coaching. I have to start thinking about bringing someone into my corner if I am going to do that. And I think again Bali will be a good opportunity for me to just think about that and like how I want that to go because I'm almost certain I will bring in a coach and I'm, I'm fairly confident it will be Cliff. Like I don't see why. I don't. I really enjoyed working with Cliff as we've said and my only hesitancy is part of the check in process with Cliff isn't how we do it And I actually think I quite like and benefit from that. But I also really appreciate myself having time with clients and I also know Cliff now knows me very well and I trust him completely and we got a really good result last time. So like I also don't want to like I'm like I've already invested that time and like into Cliff and I know we'll get a good result. So I'm fairly certain I will go with Cliff but I just have those small reservations just due to like he has his own processes as you know.

[B]

But yeah, yeah, I mean still time. I mean stay open at the moment like you said, see what happens over Bali, keep being open and then yeah, you can kind of make the call.

[A]

I've thought about self coaching but I'm just like it sounds good in the moment but I'm just like it's just another stressor. It's just another thing to think about. And I have to say I so appreciate just sending Cliff my stuff and following orders. It's just nice. Oh and also I could probably talk to Cliff about it. I'll talk to him. But some of the peaking stuff, I just don't know how much the stress of it all is worth it for me. There's some of that water loading and the depletion. I think the first like yeah and some of it I didn't really mind the waterloading is the worst thing. I just hate it and I'm just not convinced of the benefits. But he might convince me otherwise. I might end up, I bet you I'll try it once and I'll be like I don't know. I hate this.

[B]

I think your bladder will have, like, post traumatic stress disorder.

[A]

Thinking about it again, I don't know if you've noticed, Mike, but when we do these. How often have I not been taking my little break that.

[B]

That I used to do a pee

[A]

break all the time, but the last few months, no pee breaks. Wow.

[B]

That is a sign of recovery. I did. Yeah. Now that you say it, maybe like the last time or two, like. Yeah, that's very good.

[A]

I think it's been longer than you think as well. And it's been a while I haven't had my pee break, which I. Has been nice for me as well, because I'm not thinking out of the back of my head like, I need to go pee constantly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I haven't modified how I drink. I just. My body's like, hey, you don't need to go pee as often anymore.

[B]

That's impressive. Only two years, nearly two years later.

[A]

No.

[B]

Took a lot.

[A]

That's. Yeah. So my bladder was traumatized. I think there's also maybe something to. I don't know if there's something to the story of carbohydrates and like, obviously the associated water and fluid dynamics. I think it is just a sign of recovery more generally.

[B]

Yeah, I can. I can definitely see that. But coming back to what you were saying about, you know, the peak week and stuff, that is another reason, like, you and Cliff would have learned that now. And so you can try just a different method. So, again, lends credence to what you said about, you know, spending time with a coach and. And just investing that time and letting them get to know you because he knows you now, and so he'll be able to have. He'll know kind of like. Yeah. How to better manage things. For sure. Yeah.

[A]

And also, you learn the coach. Right. So you kind of learn to know the things they're picking up on, maybe the things you feel like, oh, you haven't picked up on this. So I need to be doubly on top of that or need to tell you that you start to learn their process and ways of doing things. So there's just a lot of benefit if. If they're a good coach to sticking with them and giving them, like, time to be able to get the most from you. And. Yeah. So that's why. Where I probably am. So I. I said I would reach out to him. I probably have to. Oh, I think I will end up doing the pre prep stuff myself. Like just that first initial diet that we're going to do post Bali and then like reach out to him when I'm in that. More like slow gain, kind of feeling things out so that we can kind of kick prep off and everything. And then I. Then you can focus on. Because there's a lot to think about with prep in regards to, like doing it yourself if you're self coaching, that you also have to think about accommodation, flights, potentially, like what competitions you want to do. So if you're taking on that and you're taking yourself through the prep and the peak week, there's so many actual things to a contest prep. There's quite a lot, especially if you are competing abroad or you're doing lots of different shows and.

[B]

Yeah, and I think, no doubt you'll. You'll obviously have me competing, but I think you'll have Andrew, I think will be competing and you'll no doubt have quite a lot of other people competing. So to have all of that client management that you've got, you know, plus, you know, your own, it's. Yeah, it's just a plus, you know, like you said, all the competition stuff, it's just a lot to have on your plate.

[A]

Yeah, especially the way we coach, like, thankfully. And we would have to. I haven't had to, but I would have to set like a limit on the number of clients that I take on to compete. Especially if I was self coaching, actually. Especially if I was self coaching and competing. And then it's a layer back once you're competing but not self coaching. But even then it's still like you're not functioning like 100 and you haven't got the bandwidth as you normally do. But yeah, thankfully I have not got to that point, which is nice. But, yeah, I will have you, I will have Andrew nicely. He'll probably be doing. I imagine he'll be doing the Supernaturals as well. So he's got his timeline in place and it's. It's weird thinking it's July now and we're talking about competing next year, but these are the timelines that Natural Bodybuilding is on and that you need to be aware of. So, yeah, it's even weird to think that, like, my offseason is coming to a bit of a close. Like, that's just weird to me to even think about. Like, how is it already that time?

[B]

Oh, it doesn't seem like that long ago that we're in New York. It's wild to think that it was almost. Yes. Coming up to nearly two years since we were there. It's mad.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely mad. And it's also. It was funny. I was speaking, I had a consultation with. I, I work with him on a monthly consultation, basic basis, basically. And he was talking about, he liked the heat wave that we're having because he was like, he felt like his physique looked better. And I was like, that's because you're so lean. He was like, yeah, I was just like super vascular when I took like my work trousers off. Like, veins all through my legs. He's like 10 or below body fat at the moment. Like he, he got super lean. And I was then thinking the last time I had that was like when I was in the Maldives, which was quite close post show where I was like, Jesus. Like, my legs as. I haven't had that level of like separation and detail for a long time. That's. That just small layer of fat has just slowly accumulated over time. So I'm quite excited to, to peel it back. And it feels like the right time too because, like, there's just been some small signs where it's like, I am really well recovered from any sort of prep. Like starting a diet tomorrow would not fill me with any concerns or anxiety at all, which is nice and I should be there. Right. It's been a long time since competing, but, like, it does take a while to recover too.

[B]

And amazing to think that you haven't had any mini cuts, no breaks in your surplus in, in that time. It's been incredible in some sense. It's been awesome.

[A]

Yeah. It's actually crazy to reflect on that. I don't think I. I think the. I think this might actually be the longest gaining phase I've ever had in my entire lifting career. Because I know I had like a year of gaining. I can remember like one, one time where I had basically a year. But yeah, I think this, I mean, this has been the longest I've ever gained and not had a diet phase, which is wild.

[B]

And can you imagine, like the Steve of like maybe five years ago or something is like, what, you know, the future me is not. Is going to be, you know, in a, in a surplus for like, you know, a year and a half and he's going to have trained continuously for months and months and months and months without a deload. Like, that would have blown his. That would blow his mind.

[A]

Yeah. And when you put those two things into perspective, and I think about the series I've been in, First Principles bodybuilding, like, what leads to growth is continuous hard training and being in a spike out of a deficit, essentially. And those are the two things I can tell myself I've truly maximized during this off season phase. So you had to think a number of years ago I was mini cutting every like four months. Basically. I do like four months of gaining one month mini cut. Four months of gaining one month of mini cut. And it's not to say that can't, that route can't work. I'm just, I don't think it's. That turbulence is worth it definitely.

[B]

And I think that's also a credit. I can't remember whether you, where you mentioned it, whether it was us on this podcast or whether it was in one of your vlogs, but just the benefits of always staying open minded to learning like the open minded that you've taken on information that you've been willing to say like, oh, why don't we try just keep training, you know, and all of those things because now you've, you've rolled with it and you're reaping the benefits.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And it's just tough. Again, coming back to, we've been training for decades. We're very advanced gains, really slow. So it's like if someone promises this is a better path or this is a better path, it's really hard until you've invested ages down that path to know if it's paying off because the gains are so small. So at the very least I can say this has been no worse. And it's like, well, if I've enjoyed it more, which I mean not deloading every few months and not having to go into a diet very often, like my appetite's the best. It's been in a gaining phase. Like it's only now where I'm like, I could skip a meal. It's not a big deal. But it's been a long time. I've been like, every meal. Yeah, bring it on, bring it on. Like everything's delicious. And that's been really nice too because it's not nice force feeding food down at all. So yeah, it's been a good fun ride. The probably the worst of it is the injuries. I can at least say that, that and I think part of that was my own fault for being stubborn and just pushing things and trying to force progress in some cases and also not listening to my body well enough. But as you always say, Mike, or we always say, like, there's no failures, it's just a lesson. And now I'm like, I have been this week. I could have gone and Done Pendulum squats. But I'm just adapting now. I've thought of the question I wanted to ask you. Mike. Hey, have you ever heard of people like going to bed and waking up with joint pain? This episode is brought to you by Google Health. Stop chasing someone else's definition of health. What matters is what's healthy for you. Google Health offers a new kind of coach built with Gemini for everybody. Effortless tracking, sleep insights and holistic coaching tailored to you. Visit googlestore.com to learn more and start a new relationship with your health. Requires Google account, Google Health app Internet and Google Health Premium subscription. Features subject to change Availability and results vary. Not intended for medical purposes. Works independently of Gemini Apps Check responses for accuracy.

[B]

So will be. There will be specific types of things like some, some problems will be more like we'll have a, what they call like a 24 hour pattern. So things like plantar fasciitis, like you wake up and that first step that you put on the floor, that is worse. And plantar fasciitis is in the morning. So there will be definitely some things that have that, what we call like a diurnal pattern, like a 24 hour cycle.

[A]

Just because I get it. I, I think I've said it here before, but I had it one and this was part of my reason for pulling. Changing my leg training a little bit. A couple of nights ago I woke up and I was like, my knee, one knee was just in agony. I was just. And I guess the patella tendon doesn't like being in a certain position for an extended period of time and maybe that's what it like stiffened up. So. Yeah, I don't know if any. I've never had that before. It's like I've had it a few times with my knees recently but I've never had it in like elbows or other joints ever. And it's like, wow, this is weird. Like I'm not loading this joint or tissue at all and I'm getting like severe like it feels like stabbing pain that's waking me up.

[B]

Well, tissues have got this property called a thixotropic property. Have you heard of the word thixotropy?

[A]

I have.

[B]

It's basically where when you are still for a long period of time, if you imagine a pot of paint and you've had the pot of paint sitting in the shed for like a year, it's re. It separates and it's really like gloopy and stiff. Whereas if you then mix it up and you put A lot of energy into it. It then gets a bit more runny and everything kind of comes together and tissues are like. Yeah, exactly. Nut butters. I should have used the nut butter example.

[A]

The paint works great. It's just because I've recently opened a nut butter and I had to do exactly what you said.

[B]

It bloody. It requires some elbow. You've got to get your elbow into it.

[A]

So annoying.

[B]

But with tissues, when they've been static for a long period of time, when they're cold, they will be very stiff. But obviously as soon as you start to move them, they lubricate and they get more pliable and tendons are like that. Which is why often when you're exercising, tendons feel fine because they're warm and they've got. They're kind of moving up. But I think that's also why when you're in bed, you know, that probably lends itself to that. But the other key thing relevant to knee tendinopathy is that when you are. Because of how the tendon wraps over the patella, the kneecap, if you are in greater degrees of knee flexion, there's more compression on the tendon and if it's sensitive, if it's sort of tendinopathic, it hates it. So that combination of knee flexion plus for a long period of time could have just aggravated it, maybe got you.

[A]

Okay, that helps because I now think I haven't tried, like moving it quite a bit and like warming it a little bit, which I think would help relieve it. But I think straightening my legs had helped. I can't really remember. I'm so tired when it happens. I'm just like, oh my God, I'm in pain. And try and get back to sleep. But the thing you've mentioned here is I had already been thinking about this. The flight being. I think I've quoted 17 hours. 17 hours total. It's 13 hours to Singapore. I said it wrong, which was a big relief when I recognized it was just 13 hours to Singapore. But I think I'm going to have to get up and walk like semi frequently just to like avoid the discomfort and pain because, yeah, I can. I think it was when we went and watched Naruto, the Symphonic Experience and we're sat. I was like having to shove my legs out to like straighten them a bit because they were getting uncomfortable. So. Oh, dear.

[B]

Yeah, the tip I give to patients. So if I. If a patient was in that scenario, I often advise them to perform like an isometric leg extension either with. With their other foot. So if you imagine you've got your dodgy knee there, you wrap your other knee there, and you perform, like, a little isometric leg extension. Because isometrics have been shown to be useful for tendons. So just doing that or against the seat in front of you, that isometric, when we're on the plane could be helpful. Just relieve. Provide a bit of relief from the discomfort.

[A]

Nice. Yeah. I have been. Whenever I train legs now, I do a good couple of sets of just those, like, heavy isometrics where I think people must look at me and be like, what's this guy doing? Because I, like, sit there and my legs are, like, shaky, and I'm just not moving. I'm just like, oh, this is. This is helping. I know it, and it does help.

[B]

I did also quickly want to say something to you, which you reminded me of. So from the research that they've done in tennis elbow lateral elbow tendinopathy is so how long you've had the problem for does not correlate with the prognosis. So just because you've had a problem for longer doesn't mean that the prognosis is poorer, which is something that I want you to be reassured by, because even though you've had it a long time, it doesn't mean that it won't get better.

[A]

That's awesome. Before we leave because. Yeah, so the listeners know we're going away, Right. So we're not going to be able to record our weekly episodes, but we don't want to leave you without an episode. So we're splitting these ones up. So no Q A this episode. There'll be one next episode. But before we leave, I know you want to give one person a shout out, and so I'm gonna. I don't want to leave if you're not sure who that is.

[B]

I was gonna say, I hope I get this person right. This is where I say the wrong person. But I. My head's gonna go to Aaron Naturals. Okay.

[A]

I just wanted to make sure we covered that.

[B]

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. No, I just want to give a massive shout out to my client, Aaron. So Aaron capped off his first ever season last weekend at the PCA Naturals. It was a good show. Aaron came six out of, I think, eight or nine competitors. But the great thing was that Aaron looked his best ever. He looked much better than the WNBF first timers. He brought a fuller physique. He was the most conditioned on stage, and it was just. Yeah, it was fantastic. And the thing, obviously, Aaron Was a little bit disappointed with the placings because again, it's always nice when you look better. You want to do better. But ultimately it's a great benchmark for him to move forwards. Like the conditioning that he brought, he showcased a lot of potential. He's got a really nice kind of shape, I think, to his physique. And if it can. If he has a good improvement season behind him and fills out, it'll be great. So, yeah, super proud of Aaron. And the thing that I'm most proud of is just how he handled the process, you know, because literally he did everything that he possibly could have. You know, he didn't put a foot wrong. He asked questions. You know, he nailed everything to the te. And he made my life really easy. So, yeah, very, very lucky. And Aaron did awesome.

[A]

Yeah, he needs to do an upper body specialization like you, because his legs are. He's got some very well developed legs, especially the quads. So if he brings up his upper body to match that impressive lower body, as I said to him, I've said to him at the wnbf, he's going to be very impressive. And the fact that he got into that condition for his first time is. I take. If I had my metaphorical hat, I would take it off because it's hard to get to that level of condition. Like, he had glutes through from the rear. He got as conditioned as you possibly can. He did everything that he could have. I know. Also posing was challenging for him because of some asymmetries and things. And he did a really good job on improving that. So to just. It's great to. I know it might not feel great in the moment for Aaron if he. I know he'll listen to this, but to be on the cusp of like placing in competitive shows like, that's a great place to be for a first season because you'll be so hungry to improve upon that for next time. And I'm really great to hear that he looked even better this next show because that's always the way you want it to go. From the pitch I saw because I haven't seen professional pictures and I've only seen, like little bits but look like he wasn't like. This is a weird way to say it because I know he didn't like lose body fat into that. I don't think. I don't think he pushed for more body fat loss because I think he was already as lean as he needed to be. But he definitely showed the condition better. He looked sharper. Not as much like, I don't know, like maybe stress or whatever it is within the physique from what I saw at least, obviously you were there. So he, it sounds like that extra time of feeding in really helped reveal the condition he had. So it's great that you got to bring that together.

[B]

Yeah, it was, it was a really good lesson for me as a coach and I said this to Aaron in our check in today because we kind of had a bit of a reflection in our check in about the whole thing and you know, it was nice for me to learn as a coach, like, hey, I can actually feed your body more essentially, you know, so I can be more aggressive. If we were doing a peak week again, I can be more aggressive. I equally, you know, feeding you up, I can be a bit more aggressive there. So it was great learning for me for sure.

[A]

Yeah. Sometimes it surprises me when I work like some people, I'm like, I can't spill you. And then other people are like, oh my gosh, we barely had anything. You're spilled. It takes time to learn that. Which comes back to the whole reason of keeping Cliff in my corner is like, yeah, he's got that data and so that's going to help him make better decisions quicker. But yeah, we should round this one off because we've been 45 minutes and we're going to get to a Q and A, guys. So we appreciate your patience with these. I hope you still tune in to the shorter episodes and appreciate your questions as well. But thought better to rather than just skip a bunch of weeks, have some shorter but episodes available to you each week and so look forward to the next episode coming out to be all your questions.

[B]

And Steve, did you want the listeners to write, send us anything in the comments from what we've talked about today.

[A]

Did you watch the England game? Because we didn't mention it because it was on at 5pm Mike, you could have watched.

[B]

I have no excuse.

[A]

Do you. You don't know the score. Do you know if we beat whoever we played? So we played Congo. We. Harry Kane scored two goals. It was 2:1. It was a show as in they. We were one nail down within like the first 10 minutes. And so we were like, this is Congo. We should be freezing them. We've got Mexico next. And so that's that. I think I'm not going to be watching that one. It's on Sunday at like 1:00am so. Okay, yeah, definitely not going to be watching that one. Charlotte probably will.

[B]

Will it still be on whilst we're

[A]

in Bali, I think. I think it is. I don't know. I think it ends before we're back. So I think the final is sometime whilst we're in Bali, which could be really cool to actually go to, like a bar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Watch it. I don't think England will be in that final, but. No, probably Argentina and France or something like that.

[B]

Well, there you go. That could be something if it. If it does happen.

[A]

Yes, guys, thank you so much. We'll catch you in the next episode.

[B]

See you later.