The Problem with People Pleasing ft Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond - CHIT CHAT WEDNESDAY

Summary

The JTrain Podcast – Chit Chat Wednesday

Episode: The Problem with People Pleasing ft Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond

Host: Jared Freid
Guest: Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond
Date: December 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Chit Chat Wednesday features psychologist Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond, author of Toxic Striving. Jared and Dr. Paula delve into the often misunderstood subject of people-pleasing—what it really means, why we do it, and how it sabotages authentic connections and self-fulfillment. Through humor and relatable personal anecdotes, the duo explores relationship and dating challenges, the obstacles to asserting one’s needs, how technology and modern culture exacerbate these tendencies, and practical advice for cultivating healthier emotional boundaries.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin Story and Book Background

• Dr. Paula shares how her husband reached out to get her on the podcast, highlighting her own struggle with self-promotion despite writing a book on living authentically.
  • [02:16] “I was really good at the writing of the book ... I suck at the, like, promotion part of it.” – Dr. Paula
• She recounts how releasing her book Toxic Striving coincided with a complicated pregnancy, which derailed her planned book tour.
  • [06:33] “I had to live in the hospital for, like, a month before my baby was born ... the hype moment kind of, like slipped through my fingers at the time.” – Dr. Paula

2. What is People Pleasing, Really?

• Both host and guest identify as people-pleasers but clarify the popular misconceptions:
  • [09:57] “It's not like a diagnosis. It's more like, you know, a self-described thing. ... It’s a ME problem. ... I don't like how I feel when someone's disappointed.” – Dr. Paula
• Jared admits he tries to avoid conflict and keep everyone happy, reflecting the self-serving aspect of people-pleasing.
  • [10:30] “I'm really trying to protect my own self. So I'm a huge piece of shit who doesn't want to feel badly.” – Jared

3. Consequences and Patterns

• People-pleasing can block intimacy and authenticity, particularly in dating and relationships.
  • [13:04] “People pleasing blocks intimacy ... I notice in my own relationships ... the more you want to, like, never upset anyone, you end up behaving in ways that are just like, not really true to you.” – Dr. Paula
• Different 'flavors' of people-pleasing in relationships: Dr. Paula people-pleases until resentful; her husband suppresses his preferences until he explodes.
  • [14:29] “He, like, holds back, holds back, holds back, and then, like, explodes out of nowhere one day when he, like, can't stand it anymore.” – Dr. Paula

4. Dating Dynamics: Single vs. Relationship

• Jared wonders if being single makes people-pleasing harder due to less certainty about the other’s reactions, realizing it's just “different flavors of the same mess.”
  • [14:15] “At least in a relationship, you know their level of anger ... as a single person ... everyone reacts to disappointment in different ways.” – Jared
• Dr. Paula observes that many people-pleasers end up dating selfish partners, but some, like her and her husband, attract fellow people-pleasers.
  • [17:08] “What I see more of is ... people-pleasers who date ... selfish people who ... expect to be catered to.” – Dr. Paula

5. Avoidance and Lack of Intimacy

• Avoiding honest conversations blocks opportunities for growth or actual closeness:
  • [18:16] “You're not giving the other person a chance to prove you wrong ... maybe they can handle being disappointed.” – Dr. Paula
• Jared recognizes that keeping relationships “light and fun” is a way to avoid messiness but also to his detriment:
  • [21:12] “Light and fun is, like, literally my nickname in a relationship ... but light fun doesn't get you close to someone.” – Jared & Dr. Paula

6. Modern Pressures: Technology, Social Media, and Impression Management

• The pressure to manage others' impressions is magnified by technology and “curated” digital lives.
  • [28:39] “So much of your energy gets sucked up into trying to control what you can't control ... Technology and AI and all of this ... is making it worse for us.” – Dr. Paula
• The fear of being recorded/judged affects even kids at events, and adults carry a sense of “being watched”:
  • [33:02] “My parents ... their reaction to a guy falling is so natural. And then mine is, like, I'm being watched by the police.” – Jared
  • [34:14] “They were afraid someone’s gonna video them dancing and spread it ... so they just don’t do it.” – Dr. Paula

7. Decision-Making in the Age of Labels

• The tendency to over-identify people by single labels in dating app culture, leading to snap judgments and self-censorship.
  • [36:34] “We get attached to labels and descriptions, and I think the Internet, I think like social media makes it worse ... there’s no flexibility.” – Dr. Paula
• Jared remarks on the pressure to “do a breakup press conference” and explain or justify choices to one’s social group.
  • [38:42] “You have to do a press conference ... knowing it’s not true, but feeling it is totally different.” – Jared

8. Acceptance & Commitment Therapy – A Path Forward

• Dr. Paula’s book leans on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy:
  • [27:21] “It’s about going back to your values ... You can’t control your thoughts, you can’t control your feelings. ... But you have control over your behavior.” – Dr. Paula
  • [28:38] “Can’t control how someone feels. Can control telling them how I feel and where I’m coming from.” – Jared

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [09:57] Dr. Paula: “No, it’s a me problem. It’s a—I don’t like how I feel when you’re upset with me … So it’s really kind of self-serving, you know, it’s like, how do I—I want to feel good inside.”
• [14:29] Dr. Paula: “My friend says it’s like a different flavor of the same sandwich.”
• [21:12] Jared: “Light and fun is, like, literally my nickname in a relationship ... but light fun doesn’t get you close to someone.”
• [33:02] Jared: “My parents live in this world where there’s no, like, camera shooting them.”
• [34:14] Dr. Paula: “One of the girls was like, ‘They’re afraid someone’s gonna video them dancing and like, spread it around ... so, like, they just don’t do it.’”
• [28:39] Dr. Paula: “I think the modern world ... is making it worse for us. I think it’s making us believe we can control everything.”
• [38:42] Jared: “You have to do a press conference ... knowing it’s not true, but feeling it is totally different.”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – 05:23: Introduction, guest bio, backstory of book and promotion woes
• 09:29 – 13:02: Defining people-pleasing; the real motivations behind it
• 14:15 – 16:34: Differences and similarities in people-pleasing for singles and couples; how it blocks intimacy
• 18:16 – 21:15: Avoidance, impression management, and why light/fun limits relationships
• 27:21 – 30:13: Acceptance & Commitment Therapy—focusing on controllable behaviors and values
• 32:09 – 34:50: Social media’s impact on authenticity and spontaneous living
• 36:34 – 40:17: The pitfalls of labeling and rigid identity in dating and relationships
• 44:00 – 49:37: “People Pleaser or Good Partner?”: A game exploring healthy boundaries versus self-abandonment

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“People Pleaser or Just a Good Partner?” Game (44:02–51:43)

Jared and Dr. Paula play a lighthearted game testing real-world scenarios:

• Always deferring dinner choices: People-pleaser when it’s chronic avoidance.
• Giving up food without wanting a taste back: If it’s a test, it’s people-pleasing.
• Acts of service (e.g., driving to the airport): Not people-pleasing if genuinely done without resentment.
• Intimacy favors (e.g., sexual acts): Good partner if motivated by desire, people-pleasing if motivated by fear or guilt.
• Airplane upgrade controversy: Jared shares a story of accepting a first-class upgrade solo and later feeling regret about the optics and fairness, sparking a real talk about fairness, boundaries, and consideration in relationships.

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Practical Takeaways

• Not all “nice” behaviors are people-pleasing; intention matters—are you acting out of genuine care, or out of fear/discomfort?
• Building tolerance to discomfort is like building a muscle: practice, allow imperfection, and focus on controllable actions.
• Authentic relationships grow through honest (sometimes uncomfortable) self-disclosure and boundary-setting.
• Modern life and technology both increase the urge to self-censor, but also make courage and authenticity more vital than ever.

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For More:

• Toxic Striving by Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond (Link in show notes and episode description)

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Chit Chat Wednesday for you to listen to. I have a guess who will be your new boo. You're gonna love them, too. Chit Chat Wednesday. I hope you're having a good day today. I hope it's gonna be a perfect week, too. I hope you have a nice poo. It's a ch Chat Wednesday, too. Hello, and welcome to the J Train Podcast. This is J Train Jared Free coming to live from Delray Beach, Florida. That's right, every Wednesday is a Chit Chat Wednesday where I sit with a comedian, a friend, an expert today. A rare one out of three, but I'm sure by the end we'll be a friends. Just meeting them now. And they are an expert. They are absolutely an expert. They are an expert. They're. They're. They're so much of an expert that they're an actual doctor. That's right. Credited. They. They have actual diplomas. Not like me talking out of my ass. Very excited. They are the author of Toxic Striving, and they are a psychologist. Is that is. Am I given the right doctor?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Everyone always gets mixed up. Psychologist, psychiatrist. And no one calls me a doctor anyway, so doesn't really matter.

[A]

Well, I'm gonna call you Dr. Dr. Paula Friedman. Diamond. Thank you for coming on the show.

[B]

Thanks for having me. This will be fun.

[A]

Well, hold on. We have to start with one thing. And there. There's a. You know, there's only one way to start this. You're on this show. Cause your husband reached out.

[B]

Yeah, he shot my shot on my behalf. It was like, oh, successful.

[A]

Do you want to sell your old book or not? What's going on?

[B]

I do. I do.

[A]

What's wrong with you? Why aren't you reaching out? That was my first question. I said. I said, I'm happy to have her on. Boo. This husband, he has his own job. Doesn't he have his own or. Unless he works in pr. What's going on here?

[B]

Yeah, no, he works in sales. I'm so. I kind of got shafted. Not to make this about, like, oh, poor me, but. So I was really good at the writing of the book. Like, I was good at the, like, holing up in my apartment and, like, writing and absorbing myself in my craft or whatever. And I've been. I suck at the, like, promotion part of it. I'm like. Just not. I was.

[A]

Yeah, listen, I have to. I have comedian friends who say stuff like this all the time, and it's something I. I have no empathy for. I have, like. I'm like, yeah, because I'm like, I'm sitting here and listen, you're the doctor. You, we're going talk about people pleasing. I'm a people pleaser, self diagnosed. So I. Oh, yeah. So this is, this is one of those things where it's like, you know, the teacher becomes the student. Because I'm like, almost like, because comedians say this all the time. A great comedian and I'm like, well, if you think your shit's so great, it should be easy to say, hey, asshole, have me on your fucking podcast.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I wrote this book for me, basically. It's like I, I had, I had a professor once who was like, all research is me search. I feel like it's kind of like how you always say, like, everything's in the key of me.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, I struggle with this. Like, I'm not, I guess I'm an expert. I am an expert. I've treated.

[A]

You're a doctor. What am I? Your parents? I have to, I have to.

[B]

I don't. Like you gotta gas me up. Well, listen, my parents didn't do it enough, so here we are, I guess so. Years later.

[A]

Well, it's funny because like, I'm, I'm like, you know, for me, I'm, I'm sitting here, I'm like, well, it probably means that you're really good at what you do. If you wrote about something that was personal to you and, and that you cared about, and you cared about it so much you didn't even care who read it. You're like, you know, I just can't imagine putting the pen down and being like, okay, and done. We'll see, you know, and shipping it off to see. Like, I, I, I'm like, I'm, I'm so annoying with this shit where I like call people. I'm like, I'm like, I got this great thing, you gotta put me on your podcast. You know, like, I'm, I'm on that shit. So that's why it's hard for me to see.

[B]

Yeah, well, okay, so the full story is I wrote this book. It's honestly, like been inside me for a long time. I'm like, the world needs this. This message has helped so many people I've worked with for 10 years. It's helped.

[A]

It's called toxic driving.

[B]

It's called toxic striving. I'm going to hold it up for the YouTube people.

[A]

It's on, it's in the link to. You can go buy it. The link is in. I'll promote for You. The link is the bio of this episode. What is the singular message of the book so people know when they buy it? Right now you can get it. The link is in the YouTube description as well as all podcast descriptions where you're listening to this. So what's the message of this book? Toxins Driving?

[B]

The message is how to stop living for the outside world and doing what society wants or doing what you think you're supposed to do and start living on your own terms and pursuing the stuff that you actually care about that's going to make a good life for you.

[A]

So maybe you are living by the book. You didn't. You were like, I just wanted to make a book. And who gives?

[B]

No, no, no. I want it. I want. I want everyone in the world and their mom and their dad and their kids to read it. I want the world to have it. I had a whole. I got screwed a little bit, and I'm trying to, like, find my. Yeah, so I wrote this book. I got pregnant. I had kind of a long journey there took, so I was not planning to do both at the same time. I was. So I wrote the book toward the end, got pregnant. My due date was right around the release date. It was supposed to come out, like, in January, and I was due, like, the same week. So I. I went to my publisher and I was like, hey, is there any way we can change this? I have a conflict. And she was like, can you change your conflict? And I'm like, not really. You can't really control when the baby's born. So we pushed the release date back, like, by two months. And then I had. So I'm like, all right, I'm ready. Like, put me in coach. I had all this, like, book tour stuff scheduled for November of last year, and then I had a bunch of pregnancy complications. I ended up in the hospital. I had to live in the hospital for, like, a month before my baby was born, and I had to cancel all my book shit. So the book came out, and I'm in the hospital, like, trying to keep the baby in longer so that you wouldn't be born too early. And then obviously, that became my focus. And then she was born, and then she was in the nicu. And then I have a newborn. And so it was just sort of like. Like the. The kind of. The hype moment kind of, like slipped through my fingers at the time.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And then.

[A]

And there is, like, a run up. There is, like, a moment.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, the people you really need, the OGs. The people that, like, really care about your stuff to be the ones that, like, push it first. So if you lose that, like, kind of momentum, it's. I can understand why that would be tough. I mean, right. What? A husband reaching out on your. Did you know emailing me?

[B]

I did. So. Yeah. So we.

[A]

You were. You were zero. You were whispering in his ear.

[B]

I was pulling the strings behind the. Yeah, I was. I was like, the girl behind the curtain. No, so we went to your show, and last time we saw you in Chicago, he DMed you because he was. He hadn't really wasn't familiar with your work. I brought him along, and then he was like, oh, this guy's great. Like, I'm gonna DM him and just say, like, great show. Like. And he know. He. He is a comedy aficionado. You could say, like, Seinfeld is his whole personality. Our dog was named Kramer. Like, he. He, like, lives and breathes a lot of this stuff. So he, like, I would say, has a good eye for talent.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Trust me. So he was moved enough to DM you. You answered, and then after this show, he sent another one and saw the timestamp on the last one and was like, oh, that was three years ago. See you in three years at the Chicago theater. Because your venues here are getting bigger and bigger every time you come back. Yeah, listen, God, like, we'll. We'll speak it into existence. Yeah, so. Or the United Center. Who knows what's next? Anyway, so you answered him, and I was like, all I've ever gotten on a DM to Jared is a heart. So I was like, shoot. He was like, let's shoot our shot. So he did it on my behalf. But I was aware that you were probably going to read his message over mine.

[A]

Yeah, I've been trying to fuck your husband for, like, five years now. It's crazy.

[B]

He plays hard to get. He plays hard to get.

[A]

Must have a great marriage. It's crazy. No, that's very sweet. Thank you for coming to the show. I'm so happy you guys. Listen, I write back messages. If someone posts a picture, I'll heart it. Like, if someone writes a note, I'm always like, yeah, I'm on the plane. Of course I'm gonna write back and say thank you. It's really nice. I'm happy you guys had fun, and I'm happy he messaged me, because the subject of people pleaser is something I want to talk about, and that's a.

[B]

Part of your late. Right. Huh. So. So you're you self identify as a people pleaser? So like how do I.

[A]

Well, that's kind of my first question. I don't even. I'm saying it because I do avoid conflict by trying to make someone happy. Is that the definition? How would you describe it?

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's one of those like kind. I feel like it's like a pop psychology term. Like I don't, I don't know that I ever was like sitting in school in class and they're like, we're going to talk about people pleasing today.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's not like a diagnosis. It's more like, you know, a self described thing. But basically that the way I think about it, I think a lot of people think of it as like, oh, they're a people pleaser. They care so much about protecting everyone's feelings. They just want everyone to be happy. No, it's a me problem. It's a. I don't like how I feel when you're upset with me. I don't like how I feel when someone's disappointed. I don't like the feeling I get when I let someone down. So it's really kind of like self serving, you know, it's like, how do I, I want to feel good inside.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think there's a way to soften everything, to make it about everyone and then there's a way to like really look at and go, shit, I'm looking in the mirror right now. And no, but. And I would agree with that. When I do that, when I try to like kind of avoid the conflict, it's like, yeah, I don't want that stomach ache, you know, like, yeah, I get it.

[B]

It gets me. It's like it guts me if I think someone's mad at me or if I actually know, like even worse if I like confirm it because they're like, yeah, I'm pissed. Oh my God. It like eats me alive. It's. It's awful. I hate it.

[A]

So I mean like what, what does someone do? You know? Like what do you know if you were to give like a real world like and is there a real world action plan or is it like just tough it out? Like that's a crazy thing to me is like, yeah, do I just. You, you know, like what do you do? Like, yeah, suck it up and you're gonna have to deal with it. People aren't gonna like you and that's okay. Is that kind of the. What do you tell people?

[B]

Kind of. I mean, I think that there's ways. And like my book Toxic Driving by it helps you do that is like there's. There are ways you can build tolerance. It's kind of like building a muscle. Like, you work out a muscle, it's sore the first few times or it's sore whenever you have like a hard workout. And then it like gets stronger and then you build that resilience and that ability to like handle a heavier weight. You kind of can do the same thing with a emotions. So like, you can develop the ability to handle that feeling without it like consuming you, ruining your day, like destroying your life, like making you. Because like what happens is like these avoidance things we do, they, they like you kind of can like build your whole life around them. Like it. So like, the more you want to like, never upset anyone, you end up behaving in ways that are just like, not really true to you. And that also usually like, don't really get you any closer to the things you want in life. Like, you. They're getting you closer, but they're really not, you know, because you're like, well, I can't, I can't say that to that guy because then he might like, not like me or he might think that I'm, you know, coming on too strong or whatever. So then I just don't say how I really feel. And then I just like keep living my life in a way that isn't really that satisfying and like I'm kind of. You know what I mean?

[A]

Well, it's. You make. Not to make this about me, but it is called the J Train.

[B]

No, make it, make it about you.

[A]

I. And I am a people pleaser, which means I, I'm really trying to protect my own self. So I'm a huge piece of who doesn't want to feel badly.

[B]

So am I. Hello.

[A]

Well, I, he. I, you know, I noticed what you're saying and me, you know, you. I read something, you know, in your kind of bio in the, in. In the information I had about your book. And it said like, people pleasing blocks intimacy. And I'm noticing in my own relationships as I, you know, and I like, I think, you know, as a single person dealing, I, I kind of think like, I, I wonder how this is different for single people and how it's different for people in relationships. Because as a single person, I'm like dealing with like, you're like, just tough it out and build the muscle. But in my mind I'm like, everyone reacts to disappointment in different ways. If I'm dating one person this week, and I have to cancel a date. And I'm, like, annoyed at that feeling of canceling a date for someone. Yeah, that's different than, like, hey, I have to break up with someone, and that's a different person. Like, at least in a relationship, you're like, I know their level of anger, disappointment. You know, how they react. You know what I mean? Like, I know the answers to the quiz a little bit more in a relationship, but I would also understand that, like, getting ahead like, that with someone, you know, is a bad thing, too. Like, I'm not saying. I guess I was. Yeah, I was starting at it's harder being single, but now I'm coming to the terms that, like, maybe not different flavors of the same mess.

[B]

Yeah, my. My friend says it's like a different flavor, the same sandwich. Because it's like, it really is, like, intimacy and, like, these. These, like, I've run into this. I've been with my husband for a long time, and, like, he's a people pleaser, too, but it just kind of shows up in different ways for us. Like, for me, I. People please until I'm, like, resentful and depressed and, like, go into, like, a dark, deep hole of, like, oh, my God, what have I, like, my. My life sucks, and all I do is I live to serve others, you know? And, like, I just have this. I, like, carry it internally. He, like, holds back, holds back, holds back, and then, like, explodes out of nowhere one day when he, like, can't stand it anymore. So, like, he, like, for a long time, every time, it'd be like, the little things. What do you want for dinner? He'd always be like, whatever you want. Whatever, whatever. I don't care. I don't care. And I'd be like, does this guy have opinions? And then out of nowhere, like, every three months, he'd just. Like, one day, it'd be like, I'd be like, let's do, like, let's have Chinese. And he'd be like, of course we're gonna. Like, we. You always get what you want. Like, we always do what you want. And I'd be like, first of all, that destroys me to hear as a people pleaser myself, like, you're telling me that I'm like, I always get my way. That's like, the opposite. Like, I try to live my life by giving everyone else their way. So first of all, like, ouch. Second of all, like, dude, you've never said you wanted something else. How am I to know that? Like, that's not so, like, he's married to a shrink. He has no choice but to, like, talk through some. I'll be like, what's really going on under there? That reaction was, you know, whatever. So he knows what he signed up for. But, like, we kind of came to realize that he was a, he would say like, whatever you want, even when he had a preference, because it's like, easier to just keep the peace. He didn't want to disappoint me. He didn't want to, like, let me down. And so he would feel bad letting me down if, like, something as simple as dinner. But it would be with other stuff too, you know, like, and, and it's like, you gotta let me down sometimes so that you don't, like, hold it in and then explode over. Like you can only sweep under the rug so long it's going to come out the other side.

[A]

Right? I, I, it's funny because I notice in myself the, a lot of what you're saying, first of all, that I date people pleasers. Is that a thing? Is that, Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

We found each other. We're, I'm like, in maybe a sample size of one or two, I guess, if you count him. But like, yeah, we, we were drawn to each other. So maybe it is a thing.

[A]

Is. Well, I actually had that written down. I'm like, why do, do, do you meet with people pleasers who tend to date people pleasers? Or is it like, am I, are we just two people that, you know, have a similar experience?

[B]

Maybe? I mean, what I, what I see more of is like the opposite. Like, people pleasers who date, like, kind of selfish people who, like, don't have tolerance for someone else having, like, their own preferences or whatever. Like, people who like, are a little bit more like, they expect to be catered to. Like, I guess I dated assholes until my husband.

[A]

Well, maybe, well, maybe I expect to be catered to it. I don't even know it. I'm calling myself a people pleaser.

[B]

Maybe it's just, well, well, where do you see it the most for yourself? Like, what, what's like, your worst fear when you're.

[A]

Well, I guess, I guess when I, when I, when I hear the thing I relate to most is like, keeping it inside and like, debating something on my own and not really including the other person that I'm dating. Like, and I'm like, yeah, I'm basically sitting there being like. And then I get to the point where I'm deciding in my head, like, I'm Saying all the right things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My head. I'm going, I'm not sure if I see a future here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I keep that snowballing to the point where I'm like, I got to get out of this. And I'm, like, miserable. I have to get out of this.

[B]

Wait, can I. All right. Sorry if I'm, like, therapizing you, but do you think that, like, you're not giving the other person a chance to prove you wrong? Like, if you don't ever say, like, if you're so sure if I say this, it's gonna upset them, or if I say this, they're gonna, like, freak out on me that you just don't do it. It's like, you never give yourself a chance to find out that maybe they can handle being disappointed. And, like, it just becomes a fruitful conversation, you know?

[A]

Right. And I do think on the other side of that, I, I, I agree with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't. If I don't say it, then they can't fix it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, you know, like, because what if I say it and then they go, oh, my bad, and then they fix it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And now I have.

[B]

It's a normal, like, mature, adult thing to, like, be able to handle someone being like, hey, it bothers me when you do this, or, hey, I don't really want to go to this restaurant or whatever to be able to be like, oh, all right. Like, maybe that sucks, but I can handle it. Let's talk about it.

[A]

You know, like, well, I'm not even bothered by much. That's the other thing. Like, I, I'm trying to think of, like, things that annoy, you know, I, I, I go on this podcast and I talk about how annoyed I am at everything every day. But, you know, a lot of that's for sport. Like, I don't. Yeah, I don't really have that issue in my, like, when I'm dating someone, when I'm with someone, or when I'm, like, interacting with them, I generally enjoy them. But, like, you know, the intimacy thing, like, I don't find anything that I'm like, that's wrong. That's wrong. It's more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I get in too deep, the climb out is way harder.

[B]

And. Yeah. So you go in deep.

[A]

Right. And I mean, that's. I'm calling it a people pleaser, but I'm not. That's not even what I'm, I'm doing. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I wonder if it's, like, because I, I do this Too, where it's like. It's like impression management. Like, I want you to think that I'm great and that I'm, like, charming and that I'm fun to be around and I'm smart and all those things. So, like, I'm gonna just sort of, like, only show you that stuff. And, like, if there's ever any opportunity to show you something else, like an insecurity or a fear or something kind of like dark and gross to. To have to, like, show someone that you want to impress or that you, like, even. Not even someone you want to impress. Like, maybe you want to impress everyone. I do. It's like you kind of get into that territory, and it's like you have, like, a. I feel like it happens subconsciously most of the time, you know, you're, like, at a crossroads in this moment where it's like, I could be real with them or I could just kind of, like, keep it. Keep it light and fun, you know?

[A]

Right. I mean, that's. Light and fun is, like, literally my nickname in a relationship. Like, light and fun. Jared. Light and fun. Free is kind of. How. Is kind of like, my. My default set. Because, like, yeah.

[B]

Light fun doesn't get you close to someone light and fun.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And is, like, friends.

[A]

I know that.

[B]

Like, surface friends. Yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, then I get in this thing. I'm like, how is this any different? You know, I'm a little bit like. A little bit like a Passover Seder. How is this relationship different than.

[B]

Different from all others?

[A]

Yeah, Like, I kind of.

[B]

But it's like, you're the common denominator, my friend. Right. Because it's like, you're not. Maybe that. Maybe that's how you find out if it's different is like, you. You let it go to, like, something a little bit more, like, vulnerable and, like, messy and, you know, and, like, see, I mean, to get personal, like, I dated these assholes where, like, every time I'd be, like, open up about something, whether it's, like, something from my past or just something that happened that wasn't this, like, I'm so great and chill and cool, which was like, that's, like my mo. I want everyone to think I'm, like, the chill girl who, like, can just go with the flow and do whatever, you know? I think a lot of. A lot of people are like that. And, like, anytime I would show that, it'd be like, you're being dramatic or you're overreacting and, you know, and then I'd Be like, oh, all right. Better keep it under wraps. Like, this guy that I'm dating thinks I'm overreacting. So, like, maybe I am. And then with my husband, it was different. I would, like, sometimes get. And. But I would, like, try to get ahead of it. I'd be like, you probably think I'm crazy. I'm gonna be too much for you eventually. Like, usually when I was drunk, these things would come out. Like, and then one day he was like, paula, like, don't let. Like, kind of hurts my feelings when you say, like, he didn't say it.

[A]

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[B]

No, so, so he was like, you gotta stop saying that because, like, I'm not phased by. I don't. Like, you're just telling me how you feel, like, I can handle it. And I was like, oh, my God, who is this person that can handle me having feelings besides just, like, happiness, you know?

[A]

Is there an example of, like, what you thought was being too dramatic? Like.

[B]

I gotta think about. I feel like it happens a lot.

[A]

Cause I, I, I think that is something, you know, sometimes with the podcast and with this podcast, when I'm sent emails or send questions. Yeah, it is like this basically, like, they're doing, like, a dramatic check. You know, they're like, checking with me. Is this too much to. Yeah, I'm like, that. Well, don't you operate in a world where, like, there's no such thing as too much, like, because generally, like, like, it's not like, there's coming up to you being like, I went to my boyfriend's house, I took a shit on the floor because want to be me. Like, that's not how it generally goes.

[B]

I know. I hear, I hear. Because I, I, I listen to multiple of your podcasts, and, and there's always people running in, and it's like they're, they're, they're like, they're asking, like, is it okay to feel this way about this thing? And it's like, well, you do feel this way, so who's to say? Like, there. It's not even, like, why? I think the problem is the question. It's not. We shouldn't be asking ourselves, is it okay to feel this way? It's just like, I do feel this way. So, like, what do I need now that I know I feel this? You know, like, what's my response gonna be? Or, like, accept. You don't choose your feelings. They just happen, you know?

[A]

Now, the book, which is called toxic Toxic striving, does it have, like, what's the, Is there a main, like, device that you're using? Is there, like a, Is there, like, yeah. Thing you Tell people, like, here, kind of, here's how to, like, kind of center yourself. What would that be?

[B]

So I, I, I don't want to get, like, jargony too much, but it's like. And so there's this theory that I love that I'm, like, obsessed with called acceptance and commitment therapy. And it's basically all about that. It's about, like, going back to your values and, like, letting that be in the, the guide for how you handle things. You can't control your thoughts, you can't control your feelings. They just come and go. They're gonna do their thing, you know, and, like, we create suffering for ourselves when we try to control that stuff. If I don't, like, if I think I'm overreacting, so how do I not react so much? It's like, I can't, I can't. Like, you, you don't have control, but you have control over your behavior. So it's like, I don't choose if I get, like, pissed off at someone. I choose if I, like, punch them in the face or if I speak to them like an adult, you know, like, so it's like channeling your energy. The book is, teaches you how to channel your energy towards the stuff you can control and stop getting stuck on the stuff you can't control. Does that make sense?

[A]

So I'm like, no, it makes, it makes sense. Like, I'm like, I'm putting this into my own life.

[B]

Like, yeah, can't control.

[A]

Can't control. Can't control how someone feels. Can control telling them how I feel and where I'm coming from. Like, if I'm to, like, make two columns for something can control.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Text.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

All the reaction to the text.

[B]

Exactly like that. There's literally in the book I, like, made on Canva, like, a chart of, like, things you can't control and things you can control. And it's like, do a little check for yourself. Like, which column am I in right now? Because so much of your energy gets sucked up into, like, trying to control. You can't control. And I think that, like, the modern world, like, technology and AI and all of this, not to go sound crazy, but, like, I think it's making it worse for us. I think it's making us believe we can control everything. Like, I believe that, like, we can curate and we can. Like, I can. There's, there's a world where I can, like, always feel good or I can.

[A]

Like, Is there an example of that? Is that, like, curated profile to make it look a certain way like everything's okay. Yeah, that.

[B]

It's like, okay. I saw this thing. I got served this something on Instagram. I get served all this parenting content now I have a one year old. So it's. It's always like to like make you feel terrible about like that you're like up your kid in every way. But like there's. There was this. Yeah, I know. I'm like, I'm throwing my phone out the window. But like I got served this thing about these AI toys. Have you heard about these toys that are like. I think they're in like Japan. I. They will be in the US soon, I'm sure. It's. It's making its way around the world. But they're like. It's like having a robot. It's like a Tamagotchi, but it's like to so much more sophisticated and they like learn about the child, they learn about their personality and they learn about.

[A]

Like their like that movie, like the Megan movie.

[B]

It's. It's so scary. It's. Yeah, it's like a black mirror episode. Literally. Like they learn about you and then they always have the perfect thing to say to you. So like kids are talking to their AI friend instead. Like and I think it's going to like lead people to sort of like expect to always be kind of like not coddled but like that there is such a thing as like someone being able to like always have the perfect thing to say. Always respond well to your feelings. And it's like that's not real life, you know, like real relationships. You piss each other off, you upset each other. That's also how you like learn about each other, you know, and get closer and like get through challenges.

[A]

Well and also kind of, you know, the world of the Internet. The response from the Internet is yeah, if you mess up a little and I that you're gonna get feedback from someone who has nothing to lose from giving you that feedback. They don't have to make eye contact with you. They don't have like. I. I'm thinking of. I have this commenters right. Well I have this story and. And you know the winner on the Internet is the most morally when. Right. Whoever sits on top of moral mountain.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Gets to feel the best about themselves. And yeah, I had this story and this will be on cough coffee with J Train this week. I'll tell the full version of this but I went to a premiere of the movie. I'm in. I'm in this movie and it's a Jewish rom com. And I brought my parents and a guy behind us fell and that says, I'll give the full story on Patreon. And it's really sad that he fell. Like again I, but the way I, my mom and dad live in this world where there's no, like, there's no camera shooting them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And their reaction to guy falling is so natural. And then mine is like, like I'm being watched by the police a little bit. Like, I'm like, I'm like making sure my mom, I'm like, she's gotta calm down. She doesn't look good. I'm laughing at my mom. But I could see how someone would think I'm laughing at this guy falling. I don't look good. And, and I, I think this is heightened probably that I put myself out there on social media, but I think we all, I don't think I'm that different from, you know, you or I or anyone that's listening because yeah, I think we kind of operate this different world of like, you know, consider. Yeah. Considering the Internet, like our parents and I kind of jealous of my parents. They have no consideration.

[B]

Right. They get to just like, ignorance is bliss. Like go through life reacting and thinking it's going to be like blasted on social media for everyone, like the police to come get you and be like, you're a horrible person because of this one split second moment where you were like, not being perfect, you know? And like I went to my, my, my cousin's kids bat mitzvah a few months ago and I haven't been around like a bunch of 12 year olds anytime recently. So it was like, I'm surrounded by 12 year olds and like none of them were dancing. And like it was like, amazing. DJ and we're tearing up the dance, all the millennials are out there and I'm like, what are these kids doing? They were like standing in her, like, awkward. And one of the girls was like, they're afraid someone's gonna video them dancing and like spread it around and like embarrass them so like, they just don't do it. And I'm like, oh my God. When I was at a, when I was like that age, I did all kinds of stupid. I, I did look like an idiot because I, I didn't have this fear constantly of like, of what you're saying where it's like anyone can capture anything and then like make up a story about you that goes along with it that like, it gets attached to your character like forever.

[A]

You know, that makes me so, like, it makes me sad that I. Yeah. To that so much. It makes. Yeah. They're not getting to, like, play Coke and Pepsi, you know, like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They didn't even do that.

[A]

Weird. You know, like, instead of, like. And. And it used to be you'd be like, I think I run weird. And then one guy would make fun of you for running weird. And it was like, well, it's your word versus theirs. Now it's like, now it's like, now.

[B]

The Internet can all weigh in. Everyone in from their couch can, like, weigh in on whether you're, like, dancing like an idiot or not.

[A]

How. You know? So I'll give one more example. I was watching tick tocks from BravoCon, and Bravo Con is happening in Vegas, and I get, I guess, like, the biggest. Bravo fans travel to Vegas and all the Bravo liberties go and do panels and answer questions and, you know, in the same way they do it, you know, at Comic Con. And there. There are events like this that exist for other fandoms. So it's not actually that weird that brought. It actually makes more sense that Bravo would have this than not. And this woman who went. She was just, like, a woman who bought a ticket, and now she's on TikTok reporting on who's cool, who's not cool, like, of the Bravo celebrities. And she's saying she went up to Shep in the airport. Shep from Southern Charm. I don't know Shep. But she just goes up to him, is like, hey, can I take a picture? And he's like, that's what I'm here for. And it's like, I'm sure Shep doesn't want to come off as miserable dude who's like, that's what I'm here for. He doesn't want to be Eeyore, Right. But I also, like, he's at the airport. He's off of a flight. Like, whatever. I don't know when she caught him. Like, I. And then she's, like, telling the story, and I felt bad for him. And then I'm like, she could have just made this up, but no one's even seeing it that way because they're like. Because the Internet lies in this, you know, this, like, hierarchy. If you're on TV and you have a following, then you get no complaints at all. And, yeah, because she's a normal person with no following, we just trust. Why would she, you know, like, she.

[B]

Make up a story or. So this is. I actually. This is part. I Talk about this in, in the book how like, we get, we get attached to labels and like descriptions and I think the Internet, I think like social media makes it worse and dating app profiles make it worse and then there's no flexibility and we do it inside ourselves. Like if, if you're like, I don't know if you get this because you're a comedian that like, that's the most important thing about you. So like, if you're ever not being funny or not on, like, people don't know what to do with that because they're like, what. What's going on? Like, this is your defining feature. And it's like, we do this, we make like split second judgments like that based on like one word or one description and someone's like, dating app or whatever. It's like, I, we. I was talking to this girl at a party. She's like 26, and she was like, I've given up on dating. Like, dating guys my age, it is like, it's just like too abysmal because like all of the men my age are like so far right and all the women are so, or like, they're all like, so conservative and all the women are so liberal that like, we just like can't stand each other. And I'm like, I think that that's part of like, I think this, that's. This that's like getting so attached to like someone's political, like, affiliation or whatever's on their profile or whatever like this one word that they, that like now you think you know everything about their whole character. And it's like, my husband and I, we don't always vote the same and like, okay, you know, like.

[A]

Right. And it's also like, it goes both ways. It's the men identifying themselves more that way because they got to say something about themselves. It's the, you know, the people on the app identifying you because you identified yourself that way. You know, like, it all becomes.

[B]

And then there's like the audience of like, like, I can't date this person because what will people think if they find out this thing about them? Or, you know, and so it's like, maybe you even like, maybe you like this person, but he says he's conservative, so you're like, well, I could never, I could never.

[A]

I know. And I've always said that like, when you end something with someone, you know, you do have to do a press, a press conference. So, so it is like, like, like it is a reality that we do feel even though we know it's not true. Knowing it's not true, but feeling it is totally different. Right. I would assume, you know, in my opinion. But I, because you, you know, no one gives a shit about you, but you feel like you have to say something. So it goes for your breakup, it goes for your. I'm introducing him to my friends. Okay, what's he like, what's his, what's his, his deal? Okay, well, what if they find out he has this political meaning that I don't even know if he cares about as much as I would put on someone for saying that. You know, it goes, it goes, it.

[B]

Goes all down it gets. And even, just that, even like when you describe someone to someone, it's like that's not really capturing them, you know, Like, I think we, that, that's part of, I think that gets in the way a lot of times with, with dating and with relationships is like, you get too stuck on like the list of things that either the boxes you're trying to check because it's like, I want someone, you know, I want someone Jewish, I want someone who's this tall. I want someone, whatever down the list that it's like. And then even when someone asks you about like, oh, you're dating someone, what are they like? You, you give the list, you don't say, like, well, we both find this same meme hilarious. And like, you know, like, we, like, you don't really capture like, what's it like to be in the room with the person, you know?

[A]

Well, to personalize, you know, And I'm sure you know this being a psychologist is that I'm a psychologist means a million different things to a million different people. I'm a comedian. Means a million different things to a million different people. I have a show when I have a show. I remember when I first started going around and I'm a stand up. I've been doing stand up every day for 15 years. You know, people would think, well, I don't, you know, I, they all had different ideas of what I did, you know, like they'd get to a stand up show and they'd think, well, he's going to ask questions, he's going to make fun of the audience, he's gonna do this. And I'm like, I don't do any of those things. Like I, if they come up, they come up. But like, I come with an act. Like, but like if someone like has no idea they have a different thing until they see it and experience it. So it's, it's the Same thing for dating. It's the same thing for, you know, again, to go back to my problem of not saying anything to someone. Like, I, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I say, like, what do you not say to that? You, that you're like, oh, I could say this, but I'm choosing not to. You.

[A]

I don't know. I, I, I think it's more, Well, I had a, I had a, a specific instance where I was like starting to talk with someone. Totally, you know, talking. And then we're dating, going on dates here and there and then. But I'm holding off on the physical stuff. Yeah. And that was like my version of like giving me time to think things through. Yeah. And I'm not. And I, that feels like what we're talking about because I'm like, if I hold out on the physical, I can't really, I, I've said with my actions that I'm not here for that. And I know matchmaker Maria has the 12 date rule and she kind of like tells women to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know, for a guy, if I'm holding off on, like, if I'm just trying to make the out easier for myself and really not getting intimate. That's.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know, maybe that.

[A]

But I think this is, I, I think that's kind of the thing I'm noticing lately where I'm like, well, if I don't have this, like, if, if it's going that way, where we're going on day one, day two, day three, and holding on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Physical, you know, am I doing that to like, I, I am doing that out of self service. Like, I understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For them, I could, I could paint it in a way where I'm doing.

[B]

It for them, but it's not them as much later. But it's like, you, you don't know that. Like, I, I hear, I feel like you and Jordana talk a lot about this too. About how like the same action gets interpreted by different people different ways. Right. So like you not sleeping with them. To you, you're trying to communicate like, hey, I'm trying to go slow and I'm trying to like, kind of see if I see how I feel about you and not go to that level. But to them it might be like, oh, he's not that into me. Or like, who knows what they're thinking because everyone's different.

[A]

Or they're thinking I'm, he's so into me that I'm. Oh yeah, he's like special, you know?

[B]

Yeah. That this is a big deal or. Yeah, exactly so. Or he has some like weird thing going on with his like, you know, like his penis is weird.

[A]

Sure. I'm into. Yeah, no, I all could be again, I'm a comedian. Means a billion different things to different.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Let's play a game before we go. We want everyone to go buy the book. Toxic striving. It is a pleasure to have. There's the book. Dr. Paula Friedman diamond here. And we want you. The link is in the bio of this episode. Wherever you're listening or watching, I'm gonna play this game. It's called people pleaser or just a good Partner. Okay.

[B]

All right, let's go.

[A]

You're gonna tell me if this action makes this person a people pleaser or like. And people pleaser meaning, I guess like there's something here going on.

[B]

The kind of self serving thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

People pleaser or good partner. Always says whatever you want when it comes to dinner.

[B]

Oh, wait, have you been spying on me?

[A]

So if it's you, you're like, great partner. I'm killing it.

[B]

It's me. No.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

I think it depends. I feel like I'm gonna say it depends. I'm gonna be that annoying. Probably people pleaser though would be my guess because it's like you never have an opinion. You never like have taste and what you want to eat, ever.

[A]

I don't answer what. What would be a better answer?

[B]

Yeah, like I'm not really good. You could say, like, I don't really have anything specific. Like I'm not in the mood for anything specific. Like, like, you know, that's better.

[A]

That would drive me crazy too.

[B]

Yeah, that it's honestly, it drives me. It's like I would say 80 of the time. I love that my husband is like, whatever you want because I get to call the shots. And like I do have opinions about food. But then it's like there's that 20 where I'm like, I'm gonna smack you. Give me something. Throw out a restaurant, I don't care. I just can't make another decision. Like, I need you to like work with me. I need to like riff, you know.

[A]

Is there an answer that's better? Like, is like, is there a suggestion you would give? Like that's like, I don't care what we have. Is there a better one to say? Like, can we eliminate one right genre of food? Like that?

[B]

Yeah, like what? I would say like, what don't you want? Because I feel like that's the other. I mean We. I do this too, myself, where it's like, I don't know. I'm not really in the mood for any. Like, I don't know what I want, whatever. And then, like, the other person said suggests something. I'm like, oh, not that. Like, so it's like, sometimes you just.

[A]

Want to be pitched.

[B]

Yeah, I just want to be pitched. So, like, give me your, Give me your best idea, and we'll workshop it together. And like, that's also. I feel like that's the fun of a relationship, too, is like, you know, workshopping stuff together.

[A]

Right. Okay. People pleaser. A good partner gives their partner some of their dinner and asks for no taste in return.

[B]

Oh, I do this, but I'm secretly testing him to see if he'll offer. So I would say, yeah, So I would say, people, please. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, I, I guess I would. If I offered someone part of my dinner and I was like, I don't need to try yours.

[B]

If you say that, like, I don't need to try yours. That's different than, like, here, you want to, like, I, the way I do it, which I don't think I, I'm, I don't claim to be better than anyone else at this stuff. Like, I'll offer a bite, and then, like, he won't offer one in return. I'm like, I'll be like, do you have anything that you want to say to me?

[A]

Like, right, so, I mean, so you're doing the offer for the, this test for the.

[B]

It's an exchange. Yeah. Or like, hey, I'll give you a bite of mine. Or just ask for what you buy. I do.

[A]

I mean, when I go out to dinner with my family, my dad and I pretty much understood a quarter is getting exchanged of each of our.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. I, I, I should have screened for that when I was looking for partner.

[A]

Okay. People pleaser or good partner goes down on their partner no matter what the sexual situation. Oh, are they just doing that? The partner, please. Okay.

[B]

I think that's a good partner. Unless you're doing it because, like, you feel like you have to.

[A]

Or like, it's like, I guess I'll do it again. I can't say that this is the.

[B]

Only way they get off. So whatever. Like, but I don't know.

[A]

So the commentary might ruin it.

[B]

What'd you say?

[A]

So the commentary we want, you can do it, but just no commentary on.

[B]

How you all want genuine. Yeah, yeah, do it. Do it with a smile on your face. If you really want to do It.

[A]

I guess it's my turn again. Every time. I'll do it. But you know, I do it a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Do you have anything you would like to like? It's like.

[A]

Last one, people pleaser. A good partner drives their partner to the airport no matter what time of day or night.

[B]

I think that's a good partner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't know if I'm judging it based on the action, like, because the things you're saying. I'm like, well, I want someone to do that for me all the time. So that's a good partner.

[A]

But Right. If I was asked to drive. So I guess, yeah, people, please, can you drive me to the airport? If someone said that to me that I was seeing and I was like, and it was five o' clock and I had nothing to do the rest of the day, I would like to think it would be no problem. It'll make them happy. That's a nice thing for me to do. I can listen to a podcast on the way home. If I had a 7pm place to be. It's 5pm I knew I'd make it to my place on time, but it would really kind of annoy me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I still went, would that be me people pleasing or.

[B]

Because my preference against your. True. But I think, I don't know, man. Because it's like, it's complicated. Because, like, maybe part of you is people pleasing and then part of you also is like, I care about this person. And like, I'm gonna, I think a good question to ask yourself too is like, how am I gonna feel about myself later if I do this thing or if I don't do this thing? You know?

[A]

You know, it's funny. I had a, I was dating someone and I went to the airport. We went on a flight together. I got bumped up and they did not. And I was like, well, see you later.

[B]

See you later.

[A]

They were really upset about it. They were like, I kind of thought you would, you know, stay, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, on the flight with me. And I was like, I can't even understand that at the time. Like, I was like, how would you.

[B]

Feel if the roles were reversed and, and she took the upgrade and left you with.

[A]

I guess I'd be cool with it. Yeah. I, I'd like to think I, I, I like that they're getting their thing. Like, I liked it got. But I don't know. It's, it's hard. It depends because looking back, I wish I had done it differently. Now I feel embarrassed that I did that.

[B]

What, you wish you gave it to her?

[A]

I wish I didn't do it. I wish I take it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I saw another couple do it, and I watched him go to first and her go back, and I was like, this just. I mean, I'm, like, watching it from afar. I'm like, oh, this looked bad. Worse than I thought it looked.

[B]

But I don't know, it probably depends on the situation and the person. This happened to me and my husband, but we had our baby and he got upgraded and I didn't. And I was like, if you go, you're taking the baby. So, like, right, you can have it, but it comes at a price, you know? Like, I'm not sitting in coach with a screaming baby.

[A]

Like, what happened?

[B]

More comfortably. Yeah. So he just didn't take it, really? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

He turns into Billy Zane from Titanic. He takes the baby out of your hand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We need to be in first class, please, children. Right. Well, Dr. Paula Frank and Diamond, thank you for coming on. This was fantastic. Everyone go buy the book. Toxic Striving the Link episode.

[B]

You don't even have to read it. Just buy it. Just buy it.

[A]

Just buy it. Make it a paperweight or something like that. Thank you so much. This was fantastic. Back next week, boom.