101. Get your mind right: Examining your inner dialogue before/in your hardest cases; the light and shadow side

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Get Your Mind Right: Examining Your Inner Dialogue Before/In Your Hardest Cases; the Light and Shadow Side"

Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Episode: 101
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins (“A”) & Dr. Ryan Raina (“C”)
Release Date: October 30, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode inaugurates a new series exploring how therapists mentally prepare for their hardest client cases—particularly the essential self-dialogue that happens before and during emotionally charged sessions. Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina candidly share their personal inner scripts, the "light and shadow" sides of therapists’ motivation, and practical rituals to help clinicians stay grounded, resilient, and effective with difficult caseloads. The conversation is rich in real-world examples and emphasizes self-of-the-therapist work within the framework of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crucial Inner Conversation Before Session

• The hosts emphasize the importance of the moments just before seeing a challenging client, describing the self-talk and emotional check-in that occurs walking from the car to the office (or before starting an online session).

  • “What's the conversation you have with yourself going from your car to your office door? That’s probably the most important moment of your day.” – Dr. James Hawkins [01:20]

• The emotional and physical response to seeing a “hard” client on the schedule is universal among therapists; self-awareness here is key to effective practice.

  • “Sometimes we all have it… you see that client on your schedule and your body goes, ‘ohhh.’” – Dr. James Hawkins [02:00]

2. Owning Therapist Vulnerability & Avoiding Self-Shame

• The inner dialogue can turn negative, either blaming the client or oneself for the difficulty; both patterns were explored openly.

  • Dr. Hawkins described moments of self-doubt: “I must be a horrible therapist. I'm not as good as my peers. I'm a fraud. I'm an imposter.” [06:00]
  • The team normalizes these thoughts and reframes them as learning opportunities, not grounds for shame.

• Dr. Raina referenced Alfred Adler: “There are very few ways you can learn most about yourself than paying attention to the people who bother you.” [04:00]

  • Challenging clients are “a great way to study and learn and improve—maybe the greatest way.” [05:23]

3. The Light and Shadow of Therapist Inner Dialogue

• Every inner narrative has both helpful (“light”) and potentially harmful (“shadow”) dimensions.
  • “Whatever comes to mind probably has a great function and a shadow function.” – Dr. Ryan Raina [10:27]
  • Example: “Getting out in front of” difficult cases is proactive, but can unleash overactivity or cause loss of therapeutic presence if left unchecked. [12:56]

Exercise for Listeners:

• Consider a hard client. What is your inner dialogue before session?
  • “What’s the good part? What’s the shadow side that could cause you issues?” [11:04]

4. Rituals & Resets: Crafting Intentional Self-Talk

• The power of intentional phrases or creeds to orient and reset between sessions was discussed.

  • The “EFT Therapist Creed” by Chad:

    “I'm an EFT therapist. I'm a stronger, wiser other who has a therapeutic map and understands attachment. I meet people where they are and guide them towards comfort and connection with themselves and others. My mission is to use my humanity to help people succeed in their vulnerability.” [15:00]

  • Chad’s Reset Ritual: Between clients, say “Thank you for the opportunity to help that couple the best that I could for those 50 minutes… Let me offer the best I have for the next 50 minutes.” [16:12]

• Regular “cleansing statements” or end-of-day rituals are highly recommended.

  • “Having some formal cleansing that you even say between sessions or at a minimum at the end of your day… I can't tell you how big that is.” – Dr. Ryan Raina [17:17]

5. Grounding Practices & the “GOT” Process

• The podcast references guest insights (e.g., Dr. Sue Johnson) and introduces the “GOT this” model:
  • Ground yourself
  • Orient yourself
  • Take Tempo (notice your triggers, meanings, protective moves)
    [18:29–19:18]

6. Trust the Process: Presence over Information Overload

• Over-preparation is a common reaction to anxiety; however, presence is more impactful than possessing endless details.
  • “Everything that you need for second order change is right in front of you.” – Dr. Ryan Raina [20:25]
  • “The hardest cases… we usually have way too much information about them… and the more anxious the therapist is, we go get more information, as if another 16 pages in the folder are going to change what you do in the moment.” [20:58]

7. Security, Resilience, and Grace

• Therapists need both internal resilience (“I do hard things”—inspired by Jocko Willink’s “Good” meme [25:00]) and profound grace (Kathryn Rehm’s mantra: “These people are going to need extra grace today.” [26:30])

  • “Having this incredibly graceful side where we’re going to be patient and loving and attuning and validating. And when you got both of those and you got something.” – Dr. Ryan Raina [27:37]

• Quoting Leanne Campbell for those moments of escalated emotion:

  “Turn it towards me. Turn all your fear and your anger towards me. I can absorb it.” [28:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Self-Reflection:
  “What does this reveal about me? And as an opportunity—not to shame you, but as an opportunity.” – Dr. James Hawkins [05:31]

• On the Shadow Side:
  “Don’t hold that by yourself. That's a great thing to find a colleague, to find a supervisor and just walk around in that shadow side… If we can co-regulate there, then we’re again moving towards safety.” – Dr. Ryan Raina [30:08]

• On Trusting Yourself in the Room:
  “My nervous system said, this is where I needed to stay. And that’s what I chose. I had access to the best parts of me that day… and that's what I trusted and what I went with in that moment.” – Dr. James Hawkins [24:03]

• On Therapist Community:
  “You’re not the only one. I just hope that… it dispels that lie, that somehow you’re the only one who’s struggling, that has couples that are difficult… We're all going through it.” – Dr. James Hawkins [28:56]

• On Emotional Resilience:
  “You can do it. You can do hard things.” – Dr. Ryan Raina [29:33]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–02:00: Introduction to the episode; framing the self-of-the-therapist focus
• 04:00–06:00: Exploring what difficult clients reveal about ourselves
• 10:15–11:40: The inner dialogue exercise—identifying both the light and shadow functions
• 12:46–13:21: Real session examples and the risks of over-preparedness
• 15:00–17:17: The power of creeds and reset rituals
• 18:29–19:18: The "GOT this" sequence for grounding
• 20:25–21:19: Presence over information; trusting the process
• 25:00–28:10: Resilience and grace: balancing strong resolve with compassion
• 29:23–30:13: Practical takeaways; sharing your shadow with others for co-regulation

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Practical Takeaways for Therapists

• Pay attention to your pre-session self-talk: Identify both aspects that empower and those that undermine you.
• Adopt rituals or creeds: Short, intentional mantras can ground and reset you between sessions.
• Understand and utilize the “shadow” side: Recognize unhelpful patterns and process them with peers or supervisors.
• Remember: presence is key: Everything you need for meaningful therapeutic change is available in-session.
• Balance resilience with grace: Grit and patience are both essential in working through the toughest client dynamics.

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Closing Message:
You are not alone on the “leading edge” of practice. All therapists experience apprehension and self-doubt with difficult cases. The goal is not perfection, but meeting each session with self-awareness, presence, and compassion—for yourself and your clients.

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For more resources and connection, follow the hosts on social media or at their respective websites as shared at the end of the episode.

Transcript

[A]

So you see that couple or that client, you see their name on your schedule. What happens inside of you, how do you pay attention to that, and how do you help get your mind set and ready for session? That's what we're going to be talking about today.

[B]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[A]

All right, welcome back. And we're in a new series. This is episode 101. I can remember that just because last one was 100 and we're in our series. So last time, Ryan and I did a overview of kind of this new series, get yout Mind Right. Just really trying to support you as therapists. Really. Like, we hear so much about how this podcast helps you. And so we said, you know what, how do we keep meeting these people who are just needing to even just do the airwaves to say, hey, like there's some other people who are in this journey with me? And so that's what today's topic is going to be, is self of the therapist. And particularly a big thing where Ryan and I work. One of the things in the culture here is we say, what's the conversation you have with yourself going from your car to your office door? That that's an important. That's probably the most important moment of your day. Like, how do you talk to you? How do you resource yourself, whether it's some higher power or faith, attachment figure. But how do you get yourself as a therapist ready for a day? I know we focus a lot on this podcast about the skills and, and focus with clients, but you're important who you are as a human being, your heart, your mind, your body is so integral to this part. None of the interventions and all the nuance we talk about matters without a human being who can implement that. So that's what we're talking about here today. Yeah. And particularly to set the scene in this one, it's. I want you to even take a moment. If you're driving, keep your eyes open. If you're jogging, keep your eyes open. But you know, to think about those sessions, where is. Sometimes we all have it right. Where you see that client on your schedule and your body goes, oh. In that moment, how do you begin to talk to yourself? What's the conversation you have that's important we know some cycles are just harder than others. And some couples have just been on a lot of trauma, a lot of reactivity, and the cycle just does horrible things. But what do you start to talk? What's the conversation you have with yourself as the therapist in those moments? Is kind of how we want to focus. And I'll kind of share some scripts that I have for myself and kind of talking myself through these ones I've heard from other clinicians, and that's what we'll do. But, Ryan, kind of, where's your mind at with this topic?

[C]

That's a good topic. I think it's. I like the idea of focusing on or what you think about when you close your car door and walk towards wherever you're gonna work with people, even if it's down the hall online.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

It's. It's a great thing to evaluate. You know, it's like, what's really driving me? And that's what you. That's what emotion actually means is modus or motivation. It's made to move us. And so that's part of why I like eft. And, you know, sometimes the answers are better than others. That's okay. You know, sometimes you may find yourself going, I'm just getting through this day, or I just doing this for the money. I need it. And I make you a bad person or a therapist. It does make you a therapist who needs a reset, you know, so I don't even. I even want to do my. Thank you there. I thank you for working with these hard folks when. When you're having trouble wanting to and you show up and you do it anyway and you grind and. Or, you know, you got to wait months and months for breakthroughs. That feels the worst for you. But that's what I'm most appreciative of you. So thank you for working hard. Yeah, I jumps to mind. To me, I think it's. I think it was Alfred Adler who first talked about this. I could be wrong. If you're a psychology professor or counseling professor, get ready to send. Ready to send me a mean email. I think it was Adler who talked about there's very few ways you can learn most about yourself than paying attention to the people who bother you.

[A]

Whoa.

[C]

Right? So if you're in school, who's the person in your class that irritates you in your office? Maybe there's someone that just bothers you, you don't like, and that reveals you. Right. And so I think it was Adler. I think maybe several people have talked about that. I think it's right. And I think it's true of your clients too. If you think about your career. My career. Somewhere between 40 and 41,000 clients in my career. Most of them have not really bothered me, but occasionally one does. And that speaks about me, not them. And that's where we have to start. It's to me another piece of sort of that cultural humility. Because it's easy to blame them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I think. I think some people's. Some. Some protection systems have a unique way of grabbing ours.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

You know. Right. And activating us.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so those are. Most of us just want rid of them, honestly. But it's a great. It's a great way to study and learn and improve. Maybe the greatest way.

[A]

I like that, Ryan. Thank you for that. And thank you for even just. I'd a reframe. We can. I mean, don't get me wrong, you know, every human being has things that are going on with our client. But I liked how you can like. But wait, what does this reveal about me? And as an opera, not to shame you, but as an opportunity, you know, kind of thing. The reason why this topic matters to me as well, Ryan, it's I. I want to be careful. And I guess this is the transparent moment. Right. It's when I do beat up on myself for needing a reset. Like. Like I'm just so tired, man. I bet all my other colleagues have their acts together today going to show up and they're going to do great things for their clients. I just don't got it in me. And it's okay to be truthful. But then. Or it's like whether I start telling myself a horrible story about the client and putting all the blame on them, or I do the other reverse way and I put it all on me. Like they don't have a negative cycle that's getting in the way and I just start beating up on myself. I must be horrible therapist. I'm not as good as my peers. I'm a fraud. I'm an imposter. Well then that begins to then because I think with experiential therapies like eft, it does require us to do something. I don't know. This is a thought I have. I'm getting ready for another training and I was thinking through Stephen Porges polyvagal theory, like the green brain, yellow brain, red brain. You tell me what you think about this, Ryan. This feeling I'm putting a new idea out there that I'm thinking about, but I think EFT puts us in a lot as therapists, where I feel like we even push this therapist to maybe work in that yellow brain area where we're working, where there's a little. In the. In Stephen Porges, there's like a little bit of a caution area. EFT calls the EFT therapist to walk in an area of risk. And so it does kind of by every, I think, most experiential therapy models, it calls our nervous system to kind of go into the unknown, not only just for the client, but even for the therapist. And so knowing that it's my way of normalizing, hey, the fact that I'm picking up on a risk in the room or that things are kind of hard, that means we're probably on the leading edge. You like how I work that in there, right? But what do I tell myself? Here's the key to this episode. I feel like it's locking in some more. But how do I talk to myself when I'm on the leading edge with my client is a big thing. How do I talk to myself? And I found sometimes if I'm being transparent again, I talk myself out of it. I beat up on myself for it, and I start saying, like, oh, I'm not good enough at this. I don't have this. I don't have that. The problem with that is, is while there might be things I need to grow at, I'm also not entertaining. But what do I have to bring into this moment to bring the best of me? Yeah. So here's why I want to take a moment. We're going to get ready to go to break and we're going to come back and start just getting into this episode. Probably won't be very long, but the series, we hope they aren't long because we, we just want you to be able to listen to quick snippets before you go in. But for right now, let's take a break and we'll come back. It's an honor for Ryan and I to get to come to you on these airwaves, to meet you where you are, with you and your clients who are pushing the leading edge in your clinical work. And we're thankful for this opportunity and for the work that you do. And we want to invite you that if you believe in the concepts of this podcast and you find them helpful, as we do, we just invite you to be able to invest and to help keep this mission in this project going, you can support us by going on Venmo and Looking for at left Podcast. That's at le F T P O D C A S T Left Podcast and you can show your support once again. If you yourself are in a hard position or you serve maybe less resource population and therefore affects your fees, please don't worry about giving, just continue to enjoy. But if you can, we invite you to help support this mission and keep it going. Thank you so much. All right, so coming back about the conversation you have with yourself, before we get into kind of like that script, I do want to ask you a question, though, to think for a moment. I want you to picture that client or couple on your schedule. That's kind of hard. Like, you know, going in, your body gets activated. Take a moment, if you can, think about them and let that kind of wash over your body as you see them on your schedule. Whether It's Tuesday at 2, I'm only saying, or Wednesday at 2. That's because that's when we're recording. But anyway. But what's the kind of. What's the conversation when you see their name on the schedule, what starts. What's the conversation you start? What's the inner dialog in your mind? Pay attention to that. What's the inner dialogue and what's the. Maybe the redemptive parts of that, you know, you could use. Or what's the parts of that. That sometimes that inner dialogue that blocks you in being able to join them. I just want you to think about that for a moment.

[C]

I like that. That's a good frame. I think whatever comes to mind probably has a great function and a shadow function. I think probably no matter what answer you have, there's a good reason and there's even merit to it. But they all have a shadow side too. And I think we owe our clients, especially the toughest clients, to know both those parts. So that's what I would just extending to James Challenge there. Spend a little bit of time going, hey, what are the good reasons I have and what are the good benefits of whatever thought just came to mind? What's the shadow I gotta be careful with?

[A]

There we go. That's a great exercise to be doing. Like, what are the. What is the inner dialogue and what's the good part so we can redeem it? And what's the shadow part that could cause us issues?

[C]

Shadow or harmful shadow or.

[A]

I like that. And how would you even define, like, shadow? Like, is it like you calling it shadow because it, like, kind of like darkens our ability to see or be aware or.

[C]

I don't Know where I got that term? I think, I think that's from some personality theory stuff like your enneagram number, whatever the shadow part of being a seven or something. I don't know, something like that. That's how I'm using it.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But I'll be, I'll try, I'll be transparent with mine. If an illustration will be helpful.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

My first thought is get out in front of it. Right. So. So two couples I have right now flash to mind. They're difficult. They're in a difficult place. I don't want to say they are difficult. Or maybe I'm in a difficult place. Maybe it's me, maybe they're not that difficult. And one or both of their protection systems, it just locks into mine. But I think about get out in front of it. I'm not sorry for that. You know, I had a difficult, but I think an important session yesterday with one of them where I led the session and I went right to the entrenched things in their relationship that won't let the process work. And I even did pre session work, which I almost never do, honestly. And I had my phrasings ready. I even did a unique thing where I asked to meet with them each separately for five minutes and just sort of said, hey, here's what's coming next. I want to check in with you. I want, you know, I care about you. This is hard. These next 10 minutes are going to be hard and here's why. So I think there's some good with that, you know, because I think if there's something entrenched that won't let the process work, why keep waiting for it to beat you? Every session we've had that. I don't know what episode that was.

[A]

But we've get out ahead of the negative side.

[C]

Yeah. Get in front of it. The negative of that is there can be lots of negatives. You know, we can be overly active. We can. I can over talk it. I can. It can turn into too much psychiatry. A couple times yesterday I found myself going, all right, all right, hold on, calm down, reset yourself, come back to present process. You can lose presence. I think is what comes to mind is the shadow side of that.

[A]

That's a good frame, Ryan. Thank you for that. That's a great exercise for us to do. And now just thinking about that, you know, I think a good way to think about in our profession. For me, it's a good thing for me to remind myself, you know, who are you, James? And I know that's a Big philosophical question. But it does have, like, some merit to me from my view as a person of faith and my place in the world and. And serving, like a kind of like almost like a filial vision. Like, this bigger vision of, like, how do I put good out there in the world? Like, I'd like to. I have to remind myself of that in this profession. I think, like, why do you do this? Why? Like, kind of like, like, what's keeping you from quitting this and going and being. You want to hear about my latest career? That I wanted to. I thought about. So I was at my daughter's volleyball tournament, and I found out that the referees get paid, like, and that one's like $70 per game. And then I started counting, like, how many games did they referee? Then I started thinking, like, hey, maybe this could be a retirement profession.

[C]

I'll buy you one of those little flags.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no. See, I want to be an up Ra.

[C]

Oh, up Ralph.

[A]

They just. They just put the whistle in their mouth. They don't even have to talk. They just blow a whistle net. And they do hand motions. That's all they do. But. But seriously, I'm joking here.

[C]

I wouldn't even have to stand up on the ladder. I just be the right height.

[A]

But it is like, you know, seriously, though, but why do you do this? Like, I talk myself through that. Like, I really care about people. I care about seeing people restored. I care about people breaking free from the grips of negative cycles. And that's. That's one way I talk myself up into why I do what I do. And why does what I do matter in the world? Even though I might see one client or one couple at a time, it's still I do. Picture. I remember it was one time, George, when I was first starting aft, and at the end of a stage two, George made this reference, and he's like, I appreciate what you did here, because you're not only changing things for the two of you, but you're changing things for all the generations behind you. And that stuck with me. And that's something that motivates me. I think about their kids. I think about the communities that they're a part of. I think about even some people who maybe are married and don't have kids, but they. Their marriage, they might be part of work organizations or do other community. I'm like, when they're thriving as individuals emotionally and relationally, it's better for my community. So particularly here in Arkansas, like, one couple at a time. I'm Helping making my community better. So that's something that motivates me to keep going. And I like this one. Chad. One time he wrote, we did a training together, and I told Chad about the Air Force creed. Like, I am an airman fighting for freedom. And so Chad wrote what he called the. The EFT therapist creed. I'm gonna read it to y'. All. It's good. I think it says, I'm an EFT therapist. I'm a stronger, wiser other who has a therapeutic map and understands attachment. I meet people where they are and guide them towards comfort and connection with themselves and others. My mission is to use my humanity to help people succeed in their vulnerability. And he's using that as a reference of, this is why I do what I do. This is what keeps me going. And because in the military, we use those creeds as a way to motivate us. One if we get captured as a powder, it's like we keep. They teach us to recite those things to keep. So when you don't lose track of who you are and that you belong to something that's bigger than yourself. And. And I think that's what we do as therapists, too. So I love that. The fact that that's something Chad uses. Another one I got from Chad is because Chad sees a lot of people in the day. Sometimes I'm like, chad, how do you keep resetting your nervous system from client to client to client? How do you not like. Like, have this residue from each one? And he kind of has like, this before session thing, and like, after, he just. In the middle, he'll say something like, thank you for the opportunity to help that couple the best that I could for those 50 minutes today. And I gotta let that go and help me get ready for the next 50 minutes with the next couple and do let me offer the best that I have for the next 50 minutes. And he just says that phrase in between each. Each client. And that's how he keeps resetting.

[C]

A cleansing process. I highly recommend that having some formal cleansing that you even say between sessions or at a minimum at the end of your day. I can't tell you how big that is.

[A]

So think about that seriously. What would your kind of cleansing statement be? I want to go before. Think about walking out to get that couple that's difficult, or client or family. As you walk out, what would you want to say to yourself to motivate yourselves to meet them in their distress? Then after you're done with the session and you walk them out, what is the thing you need to the conversation you need to have to help kind of cleanse your heart and wash away that session to reset your nervous system for the next session. Maybe. Sounds so simple, but I think it can make a powerful difference in your day. You got anything on that, Ryan?

[C]

Well, it moves it from where that is. I think that's a really good point. I don't want to just speak over it. Yeah, yeah. So you're talking about that reset process and.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Refining your integrity. That's what sue said when she was on here, if you remember that. We asked her a slightly different question, but it's similar. You know, when it's really, really hard, what do you do? And she goes, breathe, Take a deep breath. You got to find your balance. That's not easy to do.

[A]

Did you. Me and. Right. Me and Chad took that and turned that into another acronym. You probably haven't heard it yet. So me and Chad. I even have a T shirt for it. We call it. It's because sue did. Sue answered that question. We asked it to Lee and Campbell on here in a different way. And Catherine DeBrain, all three brilliant people, by the way. And the fact that they all gave similar answers told me that we're on to something. And all three of them gave this formula of ground yourself, orient yourself to where you are and then kind of track back into the process. And so we call it the got this process. Ground yourself, orient yourself to where you are. And then the way me and Chad, kind of the way I'm calling it now in another training is and then take tempo of the therapist. What triggers you? What is what? How does your body pick up on what's the meaning you make? And then what's the protective move you go to? And that helps get reorient it back and ground yourself so you can rejoin the client.

[C]

I like it.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, all right, you had some. You had other points you want to hit.

[C]

I was just thinking, you know, when I was trained years and years ago, way before EFT actually is one of the brief models, they said something that is really, really accurate 99% of the time. But it's also incredibly challenging, you know, so if you're listening to our podcast, a lot of folks do in their first five, 10 years, it's especially challenging for you, but it never gets really easy. And that is everything that you need for second order change is right in front of you. Right. Everything that you need, everything that plays out in front of you is all you need. Right. And that's really Hard to believe, you know, so our, as we've said on here before, our hardest cases, we usually have way too much information about them. And the harder the case is and the more anxious the therapist is, we go get more information as if another, you know, 16 pages in the folder are going to change what you do in the moment. Right. And so really that's, I think, the hardest part of this, at least maybe I'm speaking for me, is to hold that presence and to trust the map. When it's really, really hard and hard things are being said or it's chaos or, you know, different sort of unsafe things are happening, is can I keep my body right there and can I continue to go one move at a time attuning with them? Whether it's live emotion or working with blocks or whatever I'm doing. And that's what I find with those, with those really tough couples is I get into chaos and I can lose where I am. So but just remembering I don't have to, you don't have to go get a new model every time a case is hard. That's really tempting to do, but that speaks, that's about the therapist. That's about us when we're doing that. And so to stay present and to trust that what's happening right in front of me playing out is what I need. I think that is the growth edge at some level for all of us.

[A]

I like that. I've kind of burned out all my points, Ryan, so we can empty out all your points.

[C]

Well, I just. The next question that goes along with this, George does a beautiful job of doing this. You know, I'm about to head out for a seasoned therapist nuance, you know, training. And, and I got this from one of his first ones. You know, at the first time, that was like a two or three day, people were flying from all over to train with him and, and he's like, what questions do you have? And everyone asks content or topical questions. How do you work with substance abuse? You know, how do you work with this? How do you work with, you know, narcissists? How do you work with that? And so he, you know, you can't really answer those questions. There is no answer to those questions. And what he came back, came back with is, how does that show up in session?

[A]

There we go.

[C]

Right. So if you have the double narcissist, substance abuse, you know, whatever. I'm not making light of those, except to say those are just titles. Those are words we put on what is actually a sophisticated dynamic that's good. But. But the answer is, so how does it show up in your session that throws you off? And the answer is, usually it's a block. Right. And so something about that block is scaring the therapist. And next thing you know, we. We abandoned the map.

[A]

Yep. Even today, like, we just. We say today, like everything. But we had an SV live today, and I was showing a stage too, and one of the clients said something that was just like. It was a loaded with. Like it could. And obviously loaded. It could have so much meaning to it. But in the moment when the client said the thing, we were on the trail of real vulnerable emotion. We were in the withdrawer's negative U of self in stage two. And so someone said, well, why didn't you go and work with that and reflect that? I was like, well, because his. His negative view of self was right there to change the process. That's what I need to stay with. If I. If I. I'm not saying the person was wrong, but my concern was if I leave that and go chase that, do I begin to lose this? And I could get it back. But to me, if I deal with this, it takes care of that. So going with what was happening in front of me was more important than maybe what was happening ancillary to the process.

[C]

And then trusting that what's happening in front of you is. Yeah, it. It is playing out in front of you right now.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[C]

Right. Well, our brains try to control where we're going or where we've been.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or what. What else is scary.

[A]

Yeah. And I may be. I missed. And some of the self of the therapist was I told the person, I wish I had probably a more technical answer, but here's the best answer I have. That day I was feeling pretty good, and my nervous system said, this is where I needed to stay. And that's what I chose. I. But I, in the one going to. I had access to the best parts of me that day, at least in that way, in that moment. And that's what I trusted and what I went with in that moment.

[C]

Yeah. I think about sort of two points of security. Just trying to think about how to join people right in that place.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

You know, whether you look at your schedule and your first thought is, oh, no, not them today, you know, or you're right in session and you're feeling pretty bad. And so that's good. I think what comes to mind for me, I wrote down. I don't know if this makes any sense or Not. But if you know me, I've worked with several Navy SEALs, and. And I've been out to train sort of with them and. And whatever. And so there's one. There's one SEAL who does a podcast, Jocko Willink, and he's got this pretty famous video that I think makes. Makes half of the security attitude that we're looking for. Then I'm going to give Kathryn Rehm the other half, you know, and if we can find the balance of those two, then we have that secure base, stronger, wiser, other that Chad's talking about. So, anyway, Jocko Willock, it's a famous little meme or video. It's called Good. You should look it up and it'll come across a little macho to you. But it's when he was a. A CEO, commanding officer with a SEAL platoon. I think he was the CEO of Chris Kyle. But anyway, I can't remember. That would be Seal Team 3 a long time ago. Anyway, and he would just talk about how his other officers would come to him with bad news. You know, we didn't get this equipment request. And he'd always say, good, you know, or someone got hurt, he'd say, good, right? And so no matter what they brought to him, you know, we're not going to make this mission. He'd say, good. And he goes into. In all those situations is an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to grow, opportunity to get stronger, right? And so he would say, good. It's not the most attuned response in the world, but there's. There's a lot of. There is some wisdom to this. You know, you gotta. You gotta. As we used to say in high school, you gotta want to want it. So, you know, you gotta. You gotta have a piece of you that goes, okay, this is hard, all right, I'm gonna stick my head in there, you know, and it's like, I do hard things, so there's that strong sort of mentality there. And it's like, this is the hardest case. All right, good. Here we go. We'll see. We'll see if. If this work I've been training myself in can show up in my. In my mouth and my behavior in this moment. So it's that kind of, like, resilient, like, I'm going to do hard things. Right? So there's. There's Jocko Eft.

[A]

I want to hear the Catherine Green one now.

[C]

Well, she just said. I thought it was really compelling. She said when she gets her day planner, however she keeps her schedule, I still Do a paper. And she scrolls down, all right, who I got today? And she sees that one o', clock, and it's this severely escalated, traumatized couple. She goes, I literally sit down in my chair, I lean back, I close my eyes, I take deep breaths, and I tell myself, these people are going to need extra grace today. Which got into her trauma training, that one of the worst things that we can do with very difficult couples is to expect them to be able to work at the same speed as other couples. Like, that's the therapist's fault. The therapist has to slice it thinner for themself and work with lots and lots and lots of extra space to expect interruptions, to not let that phase you. So both of those speak to safety on. On sort of not opposite, but just counterbalancing, really. That. That. That tough. That mental toughness that we don't talk enough about in the eft. You got to be a pretty tough therapist.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Leanne Campbell has one of the. The softest dispositions I've ever met, but she's tough as nails.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

She goes right into it. She puts her face in it. I think about. I think about high school football for me. Like, sticking your face mask in a tackle and learning what it's like to get that kind of compression on you. And then you, like, I can do it. Right. And it's like, I'll do it again. Right? And so you can learn that muscle. Right. But also having this incredibly graceful side where we're going to be patient and loving and attuning and validating. And when you got both of those and you got something.

[A]

Yeah, you're right about Leanne. We had her on this podcast. We asked, like, in these moments when people are really mad and reactive, what's your kind of. What do you say to yourself? Turn it towards me. Turn all your fear and your anger towards me. I can absorb it.

[C]

She just said, good, right?

[A]

What? I'm like, no, don't. Don't yell at me. My day is hard enough already.

[C]

Ain't my fault you do your homework, right?

[A]

Anyway. But, yeah, man, thank y'. All. You know, Ryan, thank you for this episode. I know, like, this is probably a little bit different than some of our typical format, but I hope some of the examples and stories we told on this one just normalize things for you. And, like, you're not the only one. I just hope that one. It dispels that lie, that somehow you're the only one who's struggling, that has couples that are difficult or Whatever, you know, we're all going through it, but it's like, so how do we resource ourselves? How do we talk to ourselves in a way to help bring ourselves or, or invite our attachment figures that maybe can't physically be with us, but they're with us in our hearts and our minds that we can resource ourselves in those moments to meet the challenge, you know. So just thank you for that and thank you, Ryan, for joining me on this episode. I was like, I was having a hard time kind of locking in telling Ryan where we were going. But I like, I like what came out of it though, in a way. So hopefully it helps you all.

[C]

This is a part of it, man. It's, I mean, really being a therapist at all. But especially if you're gonna, if you're gonna be brave enough to have more than one person in your session at a time, whether it's family or couple, you gotta be ready for these pieces. And I think sometimes we can feel like we're out on an island or exposed almost by these really tub. And this is part of it. You're feeling it, I'm feeling it. We're all feeling it together. And you can do it. You can do hard things.

[A]

Yeah. And the practical thing, I think that if you say what can I take from this episode? What's your inner dialogue? What's the good part of the inner dialog and what's the shadow side and how do you pull from both of those to help? Just do the best you can because not every session is going to be beautiful but how do you give the best of you can each time?

[C]

Yeah. And last thing, I'll stop talking. But with that shadow side, don't hold that by yourself.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

That's a great thing to find a colleague, to find a supervisor and just like walk around in that. The shadow side of that. Get curious, you know, because if we can co regulate there, then we're again moving towards safety.

[B]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and On his website ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website dochawklpc.com.