138. Stage 2 Series: “Social Trauma in Stage 2: Inviting Every Part of Our Clients into the Room”

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 138 – Stage 2 Series: “Social Trauma in Stage 2: Inviting Every Part of Our Clients into the Room”
Date: April 27, 2026
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Reyna

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Episode Theme

This episode explores the nuanced challenges and opportunities therapists face in Stage 2 of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), specifically around social trauma, systemic oppression, and the importance of “inviting every part” of client identity into the therapeutic process. Through personal stories and clinical examples, Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Reyna discuss how marginalization, internalized societal messages, and cultural identity shape core attachment wounds and affect clients’ abilities to be fully seen and healed in therapy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Social Trauma Belongs in Stage 2 Work

• Stage 2 is where “real depth” happens: clients and therapists explore vulnerable places and the innermost parts of identity and self-perception ([03:48]).
• Social trauma isn't just abstract; it gets “written on the body,” influencing a person’s emotional world, attachment fears, and strategies ([04:29]).
• Dr. Hawkins cites Dr. Ken Hardy’s work on internalized racism as a key lens for understanding how marginalized identities internalize negative social messages ([06:04]).

The Complexity of Marginalization and Identity

• Intersectionality: The podcast highlights the varied forms of social trauma—race, gender, ability, religion, adoption, and more ([04:29], [11:21]).
• Personal Examples:
  • Dr. Hawkins shares his experience as a large Black man managing others' perceptions and aggression responses ([07:04]).
  • A client, also a large man, felt seen and relieved to hear these struggles named ([07:44]).

“It felt like you put words to something I knew, but I hadn't heard anyone talk about in that way.”
—Dr. Hawkins relays a client's response ([07:53])

• Avoiding Assumptions: Sandra Taylor’s wisdom is quoted—don’t “automatically load the data files” about a client’s experience based on observed identity marks. Instead, stay open and curious ([08:25]).

“We need to learn to look at our clients with openness and curiosity, because the moment we start automatically loading the data files, we could almost, in a way, impose an idea on them...”
—Dr. Hawkins ([08:25])

Inviting All of the Client into the Room (Stage 2 Practice)

• Broaching & Contextual Inquiry: Sometimes, aspects of a person’s social experience don’t surface until deep into therapy, especially after safety is established ([13:13]).
  • Dr. Hawkins shares a story of a biracial, hearing-impaired client who revealed, only in Stage 2, the pain of intersecting marginalizations ([12:10]).

“There’s never enough of my flesh that I can rip off to where I'll ever feel like I'm acceptable by other people.”
—Client quoted by Dr. Hawkins ([13:40])

• Context is Not Just Optional: If social, cultural, and identity wounds are excluded from the room, therapy becomes incomplete ([13:13]).
  • Therapists should invite clients’ full identities—gender, race, ability, etc.—into the “deep” exploration of self and attachment.

“If we don’t broach it and make it comfortable and welcome the whole client into the room, we’re only working with part of a client and that’s a bad day.”
—Dr. Hawkins, echoing Dr. Reyna ([14:32])

Attachment Wounds, Societal Messages, and Stage 2 Exploration

• Universal but Unequal: While all humans fear being rejected for their differences, societal consequences (danger, exclusion, even threat to life) are more severe for some identities ([16:03], [29:27]).
• Practical Examples and Language:
  • Inviting reflection: “What taught you in life that you shouldn’t reach out here? That maybe this is an unsafe place?” ([16:35])
  • Exploring with clients: “Is there anything else that’s essential to you as a human being that still makes it hard for you to feel safe showing up as your true authentic self?” ([22:49])
  • Checking in: “That very thing that protects you in society—does it ever run into a place where it gets in the way of your bond here, in this relationship?” ([19:02])

Therapist’s Role & Stance in Stage 2

• Active Curiosity: Therapists must “walk around” in the client’s deeper spaces, searching for what society has done to them—even things neither therapist nor client is fully aware of ([23:22], [24:26]).
  • “You’re spending a lot of time walking around looking for something that neither you nor your client even knows is there.” —Dr. Reyna ([24:00])
• Empowerment over Assumptions: Therapists should prompt but not prescribe which oppression wounds are important for each client ([22:49]).
• Contextual Models: The "CARE" model (Context, Attachment, Relationship, Emotional capacity) is referenced as a tool for holistic cultural attunement ([11:21]).

The Power—and Limits—of Belonging and Repair

• Social Messaging: Kids internalize what is modeled (e.g., black daughters trying to “make their hair flow” like their white friends due to lack of representation) ([28:50]).
• Encouragement to the Field: EFT’s “expansive” foundation allows space for therapists and clients to keep learning, growing, and fully applying attachment theory to all humanity ([30:00]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Stage 2 Discomfort:

  “If you’re doing stage two, you are uncomfortable. If you’re not a little uncomfortable, you’re probably in stage one.”
  —Dr. Reyna ([02:30])

• On Internalized Oppression:

  “Some of the work for Black people particularly is finding the internalized racism that they maybe have adopted from society, where they begin to look down on themselves and maybe even belittle themselves...”
  —Dr. Hawkins ([05:27])

• On Complete Inclusion:

  “We’re only working with part of a client, and that’s a bad day.”
  —Dr. Hawkins, echoing Dr. Reyna ([14:32])

• On the Universal Nature of These Wounds but Different Stakes:

  “Probably everyone has some societal trauma in one way or another. But... there are differences. There's different forms of danger and death...a percentage of our clients, their societal cumulative messages could have literally taken their life.”
  —Dr. Reyna ([28:51])

• On Therapy’s Healing Potential:

  “While I put the armor on [in society], can I come home and take the armor off with you?”
  —Dr. Hawkins ([19:02])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro to Culture in Stage 2 — [02:59]
• Defining Social Trauma and Identity Betrayal — [04:29]
• Personal Stories: Size & Race — [07:04]
• Marginalization & Curiosity (Sandra Taylor story) — [08:17]
• Broaching Culture in Stage 2 — [11:13]
• Client Example: Intersectional Struggles — [12:10]
• Inviting All of Identity in Stage 2 — [14:32]
• Attachment Fear & Societal Rejection — [16:03]
• Therapy Language & Examples — [16:35], [19:02], [22:49]
• Therapist Stance & Practical Attunement — [23:22], [24:26]
• Societal Messages and Representation — [28:50]
• Differences in Social Trauma — [29:27]
• Final Reflections & Gratitude for EFT’s Flexibility — [30:00]

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Practical Takeaways for Therapists

• Keep an active, open, and curious stance: Experience and “walk around” the whole client’s world—including the social messages they’ve received—even those you may not instinctively consider.
• Don’t assume which identities carry wounds for your clients—invite, don’t impose.
• Explicitly ask about identity and safety in the therapy room, especially as clients go deeper.
• Acknowledge that while everyone carries social trauma, the content, danger, and depth of these wounds vary and deserve specific sensitivity.
• Remember the healing potential: Therapy should be a place where armor can finally come off.

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Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, Well, I want to kick it off by talking about the EFT World Summit 2027. The theme is Growing through Connection. It will be held in Vancouver, Canada, May 9th through 11th of 2027. Come out and join colleagues from around the world for two days of keynotes, hands on workshops, clinical dialogue and panel discussions with the leading voices in emotionally focused therapy and attachment science. And on top of sharpening your skills, you're going to get to make some lifelong connections with efters from around that will last far until after the summit. So that's a big deal. We'd love to see you at the EFT World Summit 2027 growing through connection. You can find out more at the EFT summit2027.com Once again, eftsummit2027.com it's going to be great.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Oh and by the way, if we're still in 2026, when you're listening, I'd like to tell you about three externships I have coming up and I'd love for you to come out and repeat. If you've done an externship before and want to review, be a big discount for that and I would consider it a personal favor if you would share about these three externships with your colleagues. So first week of August externship and the mothership in Arkansas with George, myself. James is sometimes there if we can get him. And that's the first week of August, Arkansas eft.com first week of September I'll be joining Rachel out in Scottsdale, Arizona. A Z E F T.com and then September 15th through the 18th. I'm especially excited about an externship, Hampton Roads, EFT and Virginia Beach, Virginia. An externship literally on the beach. Please come join me.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And I have three externships coming up in August, myself one in Alaska. Beautiful place to be and to do that Ohio and also Fort Collins, Colorado.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah. So today an exciting topic. We get to talk about culture in stage two. Let's get it going.

[Podcast Host/Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of the of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Man, it's good to be with you. Thanks for being here. I want to thank you for how hard you work for your clients, how you're willing to go deep anytime we're talking about stage two, we're talking about journeying into uncomfortable places. If you're doing stage two, you are uncomfortable. If you're not a little uncomfortable, you're probably in stage one. I don't know, maybe couples are always uncomfortable. But thank you for being willing to go deep. We're glad that you have chosen this profession and are sticking with it. Thanks for being with us.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. And thank you for sticking with us. I know this sounds weird, like me and Ryan were just talking through some other creative ideas. And Ryan said something that took me back to the first day we set up over in that office with me, you, George and Charlie. And we started off, it was after the murder of George Floyd, and we were talking about a lot of things going on, society and culture. And so today's episode is going to kind of go almost back to the beginnings in a way.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah. And, you know, there's this huge intersection, many intersections, but between psychotherapy and culture. Inequality, discrimination, oppression, marginalization. Today we're going to talk about that at a stage two level. So I'm excited to hear from your thoughts. James is, as we're recording this, he's got a PowerPoint that he's working on. I'm jealous I can't be there.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Next week in California, I'm looking at this. I'm like, I'm trying to steal that as I'm getting your good ideas. So, you know, for me, what, what I leap off with, and I'll kind of turn it to you, is one of the. One of the grounding concepts, for sure. I don't want to say the. But one of the grounding concepts in EFT Stage two is that really next level of vulnerability that we're not just talking about how we feel, we're talking about how we really experience ourselves. A working negative model of self and how that intersects with some painful wounds, traumas, bruises, injuries that happen in culture as a whole. So take it away. James, what do you think about that?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, Ryan, thank you for that. You know, you are right. And that was a perfect segue in because that's what I want to talk about this. I mean, I've been researching this concept a little bit lately, talking about social trauma or trauma around identity, because just another plug. Give a shout out to the EFT triage conference that Lisa Palmer Olson is putting on me. I believe it'll be me, Jim and Fion. We're going to talk about as one of it, because the theme of this, this year's triage conference is About Trip betrayal.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Jim Furrow.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, Jim Furrow, we're going to be talking about betrayal. Dr. Fion Viotis, another great EFT therapist, We're going to be talking about. But I wanted to talk about social betrayal. And that's a betrayal which I want to be careful. I know there's a lot of language, but it's where for whatever reason a particular group or person's type of their identity or things central to who they are as a person or a group becomes where it's attacked or betrayed, oppressed or marginalized in a sense by larger society. And when I think about that, I definitely think about racism, slavery. Those are clear indicators of things where it's like we took someone's ethnicity and we put all these negative meanings and stereotypes and we inflicted a lot of wounds around that particular identity factor. Now, you could go there with things around gender, sexual orientation, religion, I think as well can fall into that way in some ways. But the concept here is thinking about because those factors of identity when they've been marginalized and oppressed, it's not like you just wounded my ethnicity. It begins to send a message to me about my view of self. And then sometimes I definitely want to give credit to Dr. Ken Hardy where he talks about internalized racism. And some of the work for black people particularly is finding the internalized racism that they maybe have adopted from society, where they begin to look down on themselves and maybe even belittle themselves and to do healing work from some of that internalized racism. And so for me, in eft, we do need to be able to look at is how are these factors and in the context and that's the key part to this you all is the context in which they begin to form a person's view of self, view of other and their emotional regulation strategies that can be impacted by all of these things. And I know this is a small one.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

How could it not? Right?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. Because ivren, I think about, I told your story at a training about even being a law larger size male and how in society how people can respond that they are already ramping up aggression or when you say things that they can move away in fear and that has. That's something which I don't. When you know Ryan, it's like, oh, you can see why, like he makes sure he controls his voice volume, he tries not to stand up over people. These are all things he's watching and working on because of something that he's experienced in society. And when I said that another large he came up to me almost with tears in his eyes, he's like, thank you. I felt so seen. It felt like you put words to something I knew, but I hadn't heard anyone talk about in that way. Interesting. So you never know what kind of identity factor that people could experience harm and fear around, in a way.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And he's just showing you how. He's sat alone with that for a long time.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And that's not the same. I'm not suggesting someone should spend time grieving for me, this really big white guy. But it doesn't mean that's not true.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

You know, and. And the. And so marginalization has a lot of legs. It goes a lot of places.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And, Ryan, that's a key statement that we as therapists, and I think even Sam, I want to give Sandra Taylor some credit. We want to get her on the podcast.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

She's great.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But one of this. What you just said reminded me of something Sandra said to me that was so wise at one of the trainers retreats. And she just points to a table, and she said, james, what is that object? I said, a table. What is that table for? And what she was getting me on is like, we can make all these quick assumptions. Is it a table? Is it a footrest? What is it meant to put your foot on? Is it meant to put your. How do we know? And so she would. She would even say, we need to learn to look at our clients with openness and curiosity, because the moment we start automatically loading the data files, we could almost, in a way, impose an idea on them that we're projecting onto the client versus asking. Because somebody could look at you and say, oh, Ryan, you're a tall white guy. You were an athlete. Life was probably so easy. This and that. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Christian, you're this, you're that. Like, whoa, hold on.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You must have never, ever went through anything difficult in your life. But we don't know that in my. My, my, my. Pre coding could cut off some of that work. But let me get back into this idea.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But then just one more shout out for Sandra. Then she says, it's this active stance of being open to an identity you may not have even heard of before.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There we go.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

So it's that curious, active posture. That's beautiful.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I love that. Thank you for bringing that one back around. That was a good one. Being open to something that you didn't even consider. Yes. We definitely got to get her on here. So anyway. All right, so back into this idea of social trauma, because the reason why I'm placing it here in stage two, I want to give shout out to Lisa Palmer Olson as well on this, because I remember back when I first came into eft, we were being very intentional, like, we've got to do better at this. That while emotions and attachment are universal to all mammals, that based upon other people's context and lived experiences, it can manifest differently in some ways. And so one thing Lisa talked about in the broaching section is we could broach these ideas early in stage one, but also leave room. That one, the client might not feel safe enough to tell us everything or not even that. They also might not be aware of it themselves because at the beginning of treatment, remember, part of where they're stuck at is the negative cycle is not only ruining their bond between them and their significant other or others, it's also sometimes detaching them from themselves. And sometimes through the stage one work, when you begin to do step three in accessing underlying emotion. I think I got this one from you, Ryan. It's almost like a good fish, like a fishing lure. It might have several hooks on it. And then when you pull that line up, everything that gets hooked on that, on those hooks is gonna come up with it. And sometimes I think of as emotion as having a hook, and it has all the memories and experiences, and when you start pulling on emotion, it pulls up all the stories and narratives associated sometimes around those emotional experiences.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But you don't always know until it's pulled. Exactly, which is why the therapist has to constantly be listening for and ready for.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Bingo. Ryan, you nailed it exactly right there. So, one, in stage one, we should be doing the care model or some form of. And if you don't know about the care model that was formed by Dr. Fian Viotis Zemed Berhi, Jim Furrow, and Leanne Campbell. And it was just their way of being intentional in the EFT framework to say, are we seeing our client through a context of holistic care? Meaning, do we think about the contextual variables that they come from and how those contextual variables contribute to who they are while we're doing. Because care, by the way, is an acronym, C is context, A is attachment, like we've already been doing in eft, R is relationship, like the therapeutic relationship, and E is emotional capacity and strategies, particularly, I think C. All of them can be impacted by culture, but the C is the one where they're getting very specific about culture and context. But in stage one, we might not always get parts of that to come out, but in stage two. And I think I found this. It does. Towards the end of stage one, beginning of stage two, sometimes parts about context and culture come out. Ryan, that I had never heard my clients talk about ever. I'll never forget one client, and I've got a commercial release for this one. But she had never really talked to me about how her adoption really impacted. Never really came up much. We saw it in the attachment history. But then all of a sudden we're in stage two and she goes into her identity as an adopted daughter and how she always felt this message around unlovableness and maybe not enough. And she's always been working her whole life to prove that she's lovable and worth being kept around. Or I had this one client, she herself is biracial. But then also all of a sudden we talked about her hearing impairment at the beginning. We don't have issues with it. Thankfully, they have a therapist with a pretty big voice, so they hear me pretty clear. But all of a sudden in stage two, she starts going into this description and by the way, this session is on sv.com, and Angela and Julia Conroy, Dr. Conroy, they do a good commentary on it and what happens for her even in stage two, all of a sudden she talks about being from Jersey, living in the south. Then she talks about being a black woman living in the south. Then she talks about having a hearing impairment. And then she hits me with this line and she says, there's never enough of my flesh that I can rip off to where I'll ever feel like I'm acceptable by other people.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Wow.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Woo. I'm like, I never heard her talk like it by that before. But in stage two, what happens? We slow down, we go down into the basement of her pain and of her trauma and we start walking around in it. And then all of a sudden we keep opening boxes. And these are some of the stories and experiences around marginalization and oppression or identity that starts coming out of those boxes. And we need to welcome that in because something you said to me years ago, I don't know if you remember this, you said, if we don't broach it and make it comfortable and make it and welcome the whole client into the room. We're only working with part of a client and that's a bad day. So I think the main thing I'm taking here is in stage two, I want to make sure when I'm going for depth of experience, I am inviting the whole client to go into that depth of experience, whether it's gender, gender kind of things around that, religion, maybe abilities, ethnicity. I want to invite all of those to be a part of the holistic story when I'm building out those scenes.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's beautiful stuff, man. I want to make a comment question after this break.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Do you like the content that you're hearing on this podcast? Well, we invite you to join us on successandvulnerability.com along with George Fowler and other EFT therapists and supervisors, where you get to get more thorough insight into these concepts and actually get to see it done. Once again, join us on successandvulnerability.com that's

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

educational for me, and I guess I kind of knew that. But as is common with these cultural conversations, there's knowing and there's operationally knowing. Yeah. You know, so I think if, if you ask me, like, what are the four main concepts of stage two, like, I would just throw out, you know, eventually. Deepest attachment need. You know, caregiving systems need to work. Deep negative model of self, which is where we started. But that last illustration really highlights that, that other, the last one for me, which is just how human it is of us to carry Deep, deep, deep fear that anything that's different about me may make the herd not want me.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And it's just, I think it is universal and yet it's. It's not equal and it's carried out in different ways. Right. So if I have a hearing issue, my body carries these deep attachment fears that maybe this disables me from being lovable, from. From the herd, from the safe, other people in the world, or that I fit in, that I matter. So that deep attachment fears is one of the main material pieces in stage two. So that was beautiful. Kind of connecting the dots for me there.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And that could even be the practical way to get into it. It's like when you're in that stage, too, because that's what we're already looking for. And when you find yourself in that place, what keeps you from letting your partner see you when that deep, dark pit just starts enveloping you and closing in around you? What happened? What's happening there that makes you feel like you can't reach out to them? Or maybe like, what's taught you in life that you shouldn't reach out here that maybe taught you that this is an unsafe place? And by the way, this is stage two. So you know, these clients you maybe have visited, these conversations, or maybe you broached these conversations in the early assessment period, and you can't say hey, can I just check here? Cause I just want to make sure. And I don't even know, like, you've had to adopt these strategies even in life at times as a black man, James to. Whereas you don't know if the world will receive these parts of you, so you just learn how to put them away. And then you even do it at home. But I just want to check, like, I don't know, like, does that feel like a true part of your story? That even here, that's where you start getting these messages that maybe I shouldn't do it because if I do, something really bad could happen. No one wants to see these parts of me.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I like it. I think about Marlene, best seminole. You know, I think she was the first one or one of the first ones to put a stage two tape out, like, I don't know, 30 years ago. And what she does is for like 25 minutes, just kind of walk around in a circle around a pursuer's deepest attachment. And she just used lots of hypotheticals. So I can imagine her and Marlene's beautiful way of being in the world introducing also these concepts. Right. So. So what would it be like to not have to be strong? What would it be like to let your partner see, if you were to rely on them, that you didn't have to be the smartest one or the fastest one, or the. If you didn't have to look more attractive if they saw you just as you are, or even in your worst day, what would it be like to let them see you? Right? So to evoke that pain seems paradoxical, but this is your chance.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

To take love into that deepest attachment fear, which is really the only way to start to resolve it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I love that example, Ryan. And that. Because that is a big deal. Because even one way I've learned to. And I don't know where I picked this up at, hey, I totally get it. You can't do this in, like, this would not be safe or wise for you to do this in society. And I totally get that. So I'm not even asking you to do that right now. I remember one time, Ryan, we were doing. I don't know if it was for sv, you said, hey, you know what? Life is full of yellow lights. We always walking through life with a little bit of caution. And I've said that to my clients. So I totally get you having that caution out in the world in society. But what I'm trying to make sure different today though, is, is there a place where sometimes that armor that suits you in society sometimes feels like it betrays you and it gets in the way of you making the bond that you want in your personal relationship. That's an important distinction. You all like that very thing that protects you in society. Does it ever run into a place where it gets in the way of your bond here in this relationship where you learn to shut down and not reach for people out there. But then because I want their body to know that, to have discerned difference with their protection that the protection I might use in the world, I don't have to use with my partner because I want my partner to be able to be that safe, trusted other that yes. While I put the armor on, can I come home and take the armor off with you? And that's a big deal.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Good stuff.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And can I make a plug here? We hope it'll happen. Me and Ryan are trying to pull it off a stage two all star lineup of some of the key, the people who have done some of the key research and training. We're hoping to all get them on the podcast at the same time. So that's why you might feel some of these stage two of episodes drag out for a while because we're trying to end with that big all star lineup. So anyway, something just a teaser. Keep listening. Hopefully it'll be out in May.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Looking forward to it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

So give us some practicals here. Yeah, give us some practicals here. If I've got a case that I'm going to drop into stage two next week or maybe I'm halfway through stage two, are there things I can be checking on, be thinking about as I kind of pre session plan to, you know, become aware or to have my eyes open? Am I doing really culturally attuned stage two work in eft?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, that's good. Ryan, I think what came to my mind when you first asked this, and this is just a big jump in, I think it's to say, so you could say something like to your clients like, hey, so we've done some work here with and I don't use withdraw and pursuer labels with my client. But I like I'm gesturing, I'm in the studio. Like I might go to the withdrawal and say, hey, let's say if it's me, like we have an example on sv. I don't know if we ever used it. But there was one time Chad was a therapist, I was the male partner and I was a withdrawing male partner as a black man. And Angela, who's a white woman, is a pursuing partner, wife. And as I picture that example, if we're doing some stage two work, you could say, well, James, I just want to kind of come back over to you. I know we've helped you kind of learn to come forward with your heart, but I just want to make sure, James, especially in today's time, and here you are in this interracial relationship. I just want to check one more time, but how about for you, even right now, as a person that identifies as a black man, what is it like for you when you, maybe you have some protests in this relationship? Maybe the way Angela is coming at you is just overwhelming for you. But then there's a part of you, I just want to check, what is it like for you to stand up and maybe protest? Like say, hey, hold on, this doesn't feel fair here. This doesn't feel right. I just want to check how does that, what is that like for you to speak up in that moment? You know, it could be that because, you know, there could be fear around, you know, what happens if she gets mad and the police are called or whatever kind of thing. So I think it just could be. Let me just check one more time. Is there anything else that's important to who you are as a person? I'm stealing from Cindy on this question. Is there anything else that you really feel that's essential to you as a human being that maybe still makes it hard for you to feel safe showing up in your true authentic self? And if so, I just want to explore what that is to see if we can help you have a different experience around that.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's a big broach and lead in. But it is a way to just make sure. Because what I, this is how I do it is particularly for me, I want the client to identify. I don't want to pick it for them. I don't mind mentioning some things that could stand out, but I want the client to feel empowered.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's good. That's good. I'm, you know, as you know, I'm up next week in Baltimore. D.C. i say that, right?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Okay. EFT Community Teaching Stage.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Or some people say the DMV.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

The DMV?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

What does that mean?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

D.C. maryland, Maryland, Virginia.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Got it, Got it. I was thinking about where you get your driver's license. So trauma there? No, but when I teach stage two, I get, I ask the people if they're able bodied to get up and walk the room a lot, like two or three times a day to experientially Feel what it's like to walk around in people's deepest places looking for things that they don't know are there and the client doesn't even know are there. Right. Because we survive many times by not paying attention to or disowning our needs, disowning our hope to survive a broken world. Right? So when you're in stage two, you're spending a lot of time walking around looking for something that neither you nor your client even knows is there. I do think the therapist can be. Can have an active stance that when you're making these laps in someone's story, listening for what the world, what inequity has done.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There we go.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

You know, in every way. I don't want to discriminate, ironically, with that word about what should have affected them, but rather just what has. You just never know.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. I had one client, Ryan, he's like, James, I know, I know. I was born on third base. That doesn't mean he doesn't have hardship. Now he's talking about financial third base. Okay, but even in the financial third base, that does it. Like if. I know this sounds weird, but if he was born on financial third base, but the group his family hung around was all at home on home plate because they hit the grand slam in life, that could feel weird to his nervous system.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

You feel shame over that 100%.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And by the way, some of my friends who are doing well in life, they talk about that. It's like, it's weird. It's a weird phenomenon to be someone with $10 million hanging out with. With the person with $100 million, because then they want to go do things that you can't do, and it feels weird that you're a millionaire and you can't do what they're doing.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I've never had either those problems.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I haven't had experience that problem personally,

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I've not had that problem. But I like that man, because I'm like, I. I can get so sucked into. What's the shame? You know, what's that sense of unlovable? Where are you feeling weak? Where do you just not like you?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Which is good. But then I. I can sometimes disorient myself to going, hey, what are the messages?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There we go, right?

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

What. What does that inner critic say to you? Or what did those kids say to you in fifth grade? Or, you know what, what were these discrimination discriminating voices that happen to you in society and do they now live in your head? That internalized.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There we go.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I Think he said Ken Hardy.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, yeah, that.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That should be. We should have a stance. Looking for that, I would think in stage two, 100%.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I remember the quote Sue. I heard sue say about. I think she got it from Irving. Y', all, we're always interacting with the cast of characters. Now then this one said that our clients carry around our heads. But guess what? Our clients are always interacting. And sometimes society or people in society, it feels like society as a whole are those characters. It might be clergy members in civic government, school systems employing organizations that sometimes you have these different wounds with people in them. But. But it feels really big because it feels like. But the collective system also backs this and it could feel make a person feel even in a more one down, kind of small position.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah. On day one coming up next week, I actually stop and do a journaling exercise in the middle of day one, which I never do that, but I'm actually having them personalize a stage two process in one of their painful memories just to kind of try it on. And they don't share it with the group, but I just want them to try it on in their body before they get to talking about clients. And now it makes me want to add a question to that. You know, something around, what's the cumulative messages that your body's taken in from the world?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's it.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That. That maybe you're not good enough or there's something they don't like about you? Right. Something like that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's exactly it.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's a very good, clear question. Y' all remember, that's the good question to ask right there in stage two, around some of this social trauma, because

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

it's impossible to separate negative model of self and deepest fear, deepest attachment fears from the accumulation of those messages societally.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. Because, I mean, part of what society does, it does kind of send messages about maybe who's valuable, what's valuable, who isn't, what isn't. Even if we're not intentionally doing it, sometimes just the people we put up as leaders and as faces and on tv, it sends messages. I mean, I have a house full of black daughters, and I remember them as little black girls trying to do things to make their hair flow like their white friends. Because that's all they saw, all of their leaders, every Barbie, everything that they had. I'm like, so I'm like, wait, hey. I did start telling them like, hey, your hair is beautiful as it is too. Even though, I'm sorry that you don't see these messages and you don't see it now. Now I see more natural black hair on TV now. But that was not the case when my daughters were little. You know, going back as far as 20 years ago, there was one type. And so that begins to. Even for my daughters, they are saying, like, am I welcomed here? Am I beautiful here? Am I desired here? Like, they are already trying to work at, like, finding meaning and making meaning about themselves and their place in the world.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah. And I do want to say, and I think we've. I feel like I'll have to listen to this episode, but I think we've done a good job of universalizing the fact that probably everyone has some societal trauma in one way or another. But I do want to just say, for the record, there are differences. There's different forms of danger and death. Right. I mean, there's. There's danger and death in smaller ways. For me being too big and getting tons of messages that I need to shrink. But I've never feared for my life because I'm too tall. Right. It's different. It is different.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Except maybe on a plane.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

When Ryan hits his head on the top of it.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But a percentage of our clients, their societal cumulative messages could have literally taken their life.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And that, and that does bury deeper, I think, in the nervous system and makes it harder to come forward and, and hope and rely that if I put my real heart out there, someone's going to catch me and love me. That it's a different level of risk.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

100%. That is it. Yeah. I mean, I know I don't have a whole lot on this and I'm sure we could go into more, deeper and more places. You know, I am doing, doing a version of this shout out to the North California EFT community. I'll be talking to the Portland community morning Portland Community tomorrow morning about it as well. And I'm doing a few versions of it. And so, yeah, hopefully I hope to keep refining it, because I do. I am so thankful to sue and to the team that she built a model and a culture that created a place to be expansive, to make more room, to continue to learn and to grow and to truly apply attachment theory in this model to all human beings in different ways.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

It's good. I think it's excellent stuff, man. Thank you for sharing it with our community.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate you and hope this helps you all push your leading edge and push the leading edge of your clients.

[Podcast Host/Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his Website Ryan Raina Training.com youm can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website doc hawklpc.com.