140. Stage 2 Series: Stage 2 Rehab-What to Do When Deep Work Falls Apart

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 140: Stage 2 Series: Stage 2 Rehab—What to Do When Deep Work Falls Apart
Date: May 22, 2026
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Raina

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina explore what to do when deep, transformative work in Stage 2 of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) breaks down. The hosts focus on practical strategies for 'rehabbing' sessions when partners can’t stay with vulnerability, when the process derails, or when therapists themselves lose their clinical footing. The conversation is dedicated to helping EFT therapists navigate setbacks and foster resilience in both their clients and themselves.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reframing Mistakes in Therapy (05:12, 06:43)

• Mistakes as Learning Opportunities:
  • Ryan shares a quote: “Good decision making comes from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions, which means you got to make mistakes to get enough experience to learn to get good at something.” (05:22)
  • James reframes the challenge, suggesting it's less about immediate mastery and more about keeping “your exploratory system open” (06:56).
• Therapist Vulnerability:
  • Both hosts encourage embracing difficult cases as necessary for growth, paralleling skill-building in therapy to learning a new sport.

2. When Stage 2 Work Goes Wrong—What Happens? (07:51)

• Common Blocks:

  • Clients resist depth, staying surface-level or unable to access negative views of self or reveal deep vulnerabilities.
  • Caregiving system blocks where one partner becomes flooded or cannot meet their partner’s emotional needs.

• James' Clinical Reset Strategy:

  • “I back up to just the fear. Either the fear of allowing yourself to be seen, the fear of revealing yourself, the fear of reaching, or the fear of being open to another person’s need. The fear is my go back to place to reset.” (09:02)
  • Ryan analogizes this to solving algebra problems: “Don’t start all over. Just erase back to the place where you were last right.” (09:48)

3. Practical Rehab Moves

A. Return to Fear as Anchor (09:47 - 10:58)

• “If you're stuck, go back to what they can do, which is—they've been doing fear.” (10:29)
• Anchor interventions in the most accessible affect (usually fear) and build forward again.
• Use enactments with fear to restore a sense of success and security.

B. Therapist Self-Regulation (14:16 - 16:50)

• “If our clients are already struggling and we're putting our anxious energy in the system… it puts more panic in the system.” (16:13)
• Reset your own nervous system—slow down, avoid forcing agendas or timelines.

C. Structurally ‘Backing Up’ (14:16 - 15:49)

• If stuck at the start of Stage 2, recognize: “There's a pretty good chance your couples' tolerance windows are just still a little bit too narrow for that deep of work, and you just gotta be okay with that.” (15:18)
• “I work here… My job is just to show up and be with them.” (15:33)

D. Stage 2 Relapse & Muscle Memory (17:07 - 21:45)

• Even couples who’ve built “stage 2 muscles” can regress dramatically;
• Example: After 100 sessions, a couple regresses, but with therapist support, can “rehab themselves back” in a single session. “Just because we go backwards doesn’t mean we’re going to stay backwards.” (21:33)

E. Organization and Nervous System Reset (22:05)

• “Organize, organize, organize. Sometimes… it resets their nervous system.”
• Use grounding statements and clear summaries to ‘set the table’ for deep re-engagement.

F. Seeding Longing When Pain is Unreachable (22:38 - 24:16)

• From Gayle Palmer: If someone won’t access pain, highlight or ‘prime’ their longing—often the other side of the same coin.
  • “Longing and pain are two sides of the same coin. If they won’t let me have their pain, I’ll go and I’ll prime their longing.” (22:40)
• BUT: Be mindful—when clients are highly reactive, therapists should do more ‘priming’ vs. pushing for explicit longing.

4. Supporting the Caregiving System (28:20 - 34:19)

• Disoriented Caregivers:

  • When one partner’s deep sharing destabilizes the caregiving partner (“I’d throw a book at [the abuser]”), therapists must help reset the caregiving sequence.
    • “The order of the caregiving system can be something to rehab.” (31:51)
    • “I’ve got to first be with you before I can protect you. That’s a big line.” (33:05)

• Be Explicit About the Why:

  • Remind clients why deep laps are necessary, offer clarity and a consistent “platform” they can rest on before going back into depth (26:46).

• Handling Misattunement

  • “For a couple who’s been misattuned… the chances that they’re going to be out of order are really high. Even in stage two.” (32:49)

5. The ‘Ladder’ Model (34:34 - 36:44)

• Working Up and Down the Ladder:
  • It’s normal to cycle back up from deepest vulnerability (need, longing) to fear or even shallower, depending on the couple’s capacity.
  • “If fear is kind of halfway down the ladder… at any point, you can climb back up the ladder as the couple needs to rehab.” (36:44)
  • “If all you’re doing is having them pass an enactment about their fear in stage 2, you just did a really good stage one enactment.” (35:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You gotta be willing to have that awkward moment if you’re gonna also have the victory.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins (05:44)

• “Embrace the suck.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina (06:43)

• "It's not so much about mastery of the skill, but it's really more mastery of your ability to keep your exploratory system open."
  — Dr. James Hawkins (06:56)

• “Erase back to the last time you know you were right.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina (10:12)

• “If their bodies need a little more time… a little more tolerance window, a little more success in the fear and the vulnerability to have the new muscles to go do stage two work.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina (10:32)

• “Longing and pain are two sides of the same coin. If they won’t let me have their pain, I’ll go and I’ll prime their longing.”
  — Attributed to Gayle Palmer by Dr. James Hawkins (22:40)

• “We’re making laps in people’s pain. We’re not dipping down there once for an enactment. We’re walking laps.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina (26:04)

• “I've got to first be with you before I can protect you.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins (33:05)

• “Just because we go backwards doesn’t mean we’re going to stay backwards.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina (21:33)

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Practical Takeaways & Therapist Reminders

• Therapist composure and pace are critical: Stay grounded and keep urgency out of the therapy space, especially when sessions collapse.
• When in doubt, return to fear: It is a ‘reset button’ and a place of success for most clients.
• Explicitly clarify the structure and purpose of deep work: This provides orientation and safety for dysregulated clients.
• Be flexible: Use the “ladder” metaphor to know it’s normal to move up and down affective depth according to the clients’ in-the-moment window.
• Honor the necessary repetitions: Deep work often requires looping back— don’t rush, and normalize ‘laps’ for clients.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:12 | Embracing mistakes and the reality of therapeutic growth
• 09:47-10:58 | “Erase back to the last time you were right”—returning to fear
• 14:16-15:49 | Structural clarity and not rushing the process
• 17:07-21:45 | Rehab case study: major regression and return to Stage 2
• 22:38-24:16 | Seeding longing when pain is inaccessible
• 26:04 | Walking laps in pain—normalizing repetitive deep work
• 31:51-33:05 | Rehabilitating the caregiving sequence and explicit order
• 34:34-36:44 | The “ladder” model: moving flexibly between affective depths

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Coming Up

• The hosts tease the next episode, featuring Dr. Marlene Best, Jim Furrow, and Catherine Ream, focusing on process research and the finer details of Stage 2 EFT (38:24-38:49).

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For more, follow the hosts at:

• Dr. Ryan Raina: ryanrainatraining.com
• Dr. James Hawkins: dochawklpc.com

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Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, we want to start off with a couple of announcements. First, we want to let you know about the EFT World Summit 2027 that is coming up in Vancouver on May 9th to 11th of 2027 and we would love to see you there. The Summit is the flagship gathering of the global EFT community, the moment when practitioners from over 40 countries come together in one place. You'll be in the room with researchers and clinicians that have shaped your practice and and you'll participate in conversations that are writing the next chapter of this work. The lineup of plenary speakers include Gail Palmer, leeann Campbell, Jim Cone, Mark Soames and Gordon neufeld alongside your four choices of 12 hands on workshops across all three modalities hosted by leaders in the EFT community. All sessions are eligible for CEU credits so you can fulfill your continuing education requirements while connecting with practitioners who speak your clinical language. I myself will be leading a particular breakout, talking about blocks in the caregiving

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

system and George and I are presenting.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, so you will be able to make it?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I think so.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, that'll be cool, man. Looking forward to that. So come join us in Vancouver. You can visit eftsummit2027.com once again. That's EFT summit2027.com to register today and take your place in the gathering of this community has been waiting for. Also on a personal note, you can go to my website. I'll be doing two externships coming up in August, one in Alaska and another in Ohio. And then coming up in September I'll be co training with Cindy Zane in the Las Vegas EFT community. The title of it is Meeting People in the Extremes of Protection, where for two days Cindy and I will be looking at kind of like the really ramped up, kind of big energy in the room, but the still kind of escalated shutting down energy in the room. That'll be September 18th and 19th.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. And you can also join me my website ryanrayna training.com if you're listening to this in the spring or summer of 2026, I'd love to join ask you to join me or let your friends and colleagues know about three externships I have coming up first week of August, Arkansas EFT Center Externship, the Mothership, the one that we do so much brainstorming on. We give discounts for repeaters. First week of September I'll be in Scottsdale, Arizona, out with Rachel and her awesome community. Would be great to see you there. And then I'm excited about September 15th through the 18th. Virginia Beach, Virginia. We'll be doing externship on the beach. Come join us.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, so today, Ryan, you know, many people say, what if I get in the stage two and we get there, then all of a sudden we just can' do it. Today we're going to be talking about how to do stage two rehab type work. Love to hear y' all join in with us.

[Podcast Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application to of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, so as we always like to start off, we like to start off with our thank yous. Of course. I feel like I'm fresh back off the road. I was just up in main community and if I'm hearing them correctly, which I didn't go back and do all the research, it's their first externship.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Wow.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

At least definitely. That anyone up there can remember or knows of.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's always cool to be a part of that ground floor.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It is. And I just want to give a big shout out to the main EFT board. They did a phenomenal job coming together as a community. I've seen many of them in trainings in the Boston area. And shout out, you know, I think they also, between, you know, them, Massachusetts eft, Seacoast eft, they model what it looks like for communities that are in close proximity, what it's like to work together for the overall mission of eft, to be able to win and not let like that infighting kind of thing take over. So shout out to them, shout out to the participants and the sacrifices that they made to come out and learn eft. Yeah, it was just a moving time, so appreciate it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. Lucky to have you, man. That's great. Great person to get started with. Yeah. I would say thank you. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do a stage one. Thank you. Even though we're in our stage two series, I want to say thank you for your cases that go bad.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I've had a few of those myself in the last few weeks. And, you know, it doesn't happen to me as much as it used to. If I'm honest or maybe I'm just more ready for it, I don't know. But when I. When I do everything I can and it still doesn't Quote work. I've got my. My hands in quotation marks here. When it doesn't work, I still leave just as tired, maybe more. And so. So I want to say thank you for being willing to do that. I was. I passed on a. A phrase I got from a military help, military helicopter training, to James and George this week, and it was, I'm going to mess this quote up. But something about good decision making comes from experience.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Experience comes from bad decisions, which means you got to make mistakes to get enough experience to learn to get good at something.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And this is a hard profession to have that happen to you on. So thank you for your work when your cases go bad and being willing to go in there and fail, which is going to happen. So thank you for that. You're seen. You're appreciated.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I agree. Ryan. I know we got to get onto the topic, but that one hit me even in Maine, you know, to think that you. I mean, there, I can't think. Maybe you can. Tell me something, Ryan. You've done many sports and activities. I can't think of anything that you do that you just get to walk into it and completely from the first time you try, just be a natural at it. Like, you have to be willing to go through a few rounds of making a mistake looking silly. I'm thinking about in sports. Sports, especially when you're learning a sport, like, you can get embarrassed really quick, you know, like, I'm thinking about stepping up in the batter's box and getting completely swung, spinned around by the pitcher, you know, but you gotta be willing to have that awkward moment if you're gonna also have the victory. Right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You do. And if it wasn't hard, it'd be boring. Honestly, every. Every recreational hobby that's really popular, it's actually kind of hard.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yep.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Because that's, you know, that's what makes you want to come back. So if you can embrace that. Embrace the suck.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Race the challenges, then. Then it allows your. That exploratory attachment system to open up and. And continue to practice and work and have the joy of seeing when you're taking incremental steps.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Wow. That might even be a reframe there. It's not so much about mastery of the skill, but it's really more mastery of your ability to keep your exploratory system open.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Absolutely.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because if you can keep that open, then you have a chance to win. But that. That shuts down. Your odds of winning have gone down exponentially.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yep, exactly.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, well, we won't that's not the topic today. You're right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

It is.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That is right. So here's the emphasis. So when Ryan came in, of course I just got done doing externship. But you know, of course you end externship. You're close to, you know, stage two is close to the end of it. And so that's just fresh on my mind. And I hear so many, you know, I was one of them. But we get worried about what if we go into stage two and they're not ready. Well, that's very common. You don't. I mean, that could easily happen. So what Ryan and I are going to talk about is how you kind of rehab these moments or kind of. How would you word that?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Stage two rehab.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Stage two rehab.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

What happens when it goes wrong?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay, so here's what's in my mind if I'm gonna give it clinical setting if it helps anyone. I mean, there's several ones when I think about going into stage two, maybe first you go in and they just can't handle that, that level of depth. Their body just keeps wanting to kind of stay out, go back up to the surface kind of thing. Especially like they don't let you. They don't let you move from fear to negative view of self. That's one way they can block and push up. Then maybe there's. They don't want to reveal the negative ufelf to their partner or they don't allow themselves to open up for the reach. Now those are all the attachment system ones. Then I think there can be caregiver system blocks to where they just can't stay with their partner because maybe they're getting flooded out and like either shame or they're being taken, they feel like to care for their partner, they're going outside their window of tolerance. Or once again, I think even in maybe supplying the need, it can take them outside their window of tolerance. And so I think of each one of those and my main thing that I go back to, Ryan, you tell me, jump in here. It's. I will allow them to kind of recover. And what I go back to is I back up to just the fear. Either the fear of allowing yourself to be seen, the fear of revealing yourself, the fear of reaching, or the fear of being open to another person's need. The fear is my go back to place to reset.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I don't know.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's. I'm writing that down over here. That's pretty good stuff. Yeah, I like that. That's brilliant.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And it reminds me of Mrs. Brown. You know Mrs. Brown?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Tell me more.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

She's my ninth grade algebra two. Algebra two teacher. I should have known was not a good year. I don't understand algebra. No, but I did. I had some problems in Mrs. Brown's class and she would teach me. She goes like, look, if you get down here at the bottom of this problem, you know, algebra problems are like in old days, at least for like a page long.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, man.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You get down there and I like, I wrote down three. And you're like, you know that's not right. It's like, don't start all over. Just erase back to the place where you were last. Right. So if, if half your problem, you know you were right, just erase back to there and then find your errors from there. So I love what you just did. That's brilliant. Dot Cawkins.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Whoa. Erase back to your era.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. No, erase back to the last time

[Dr. James Hawkins]

you know you were right the last time. You know you're right. There you go.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So if, if stage. Because stage one is so much about fear.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

It is. Attachment, fears. It's, it's. I don't want to say it's what the model is all about, but it's a big deal.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Big deal.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And so if you're like, hey, they can't go do this really advanced stuff, like, well, then go back to what

[Dr. James Hawkins]

they can do, which is they've been doing fear.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

They can show up with each other in fear. If they haven't been showing up on each side with each other in fear. You never were supposed to be in stage two. Oh, so we can erase back to there. And we can make the assumption that their bodies need a little more time. That's a little more tolerance window, a little, little more success in the fear and the vulnerability to, to have the new muscles to go do stage two work. I like it. That's a great way to think about James.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, because. And so here, if somebody's listening, so you might be going for view of self, and they just won't go there. Camp out in their fear for a while. Help them have some rounds of success with that. Even if it does feel like some of those same stage one enactments. By the way, if they're not lent to the view of the self, it doesn't feel completely new to their body. So don't worry about it being redundant. So that's one that sticks out to me is go back and work with the fear. So, hey, even right now, I Just want to appreciate, I noticed what's even happening here. Each time we try and kind of explore what this means for you, your body just keeps taking us to this spot. This is really scary. When I'm trying my very best and it's not working, I get really afraid. All right, that's cool. Can you even just share that much? And you might do enactments with it? To me, like have them do an enactment with the fear sometimes. One the reason why I do that is it helps them feel a little bit of success because the other person comes in and maybe normalizes it or whatever. Or even if they do share it, it gives their body a little rep of getting that energy out. And then we can come right reset, back, and go back for the view of self. I like it, like it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I like it. And I think it matters a lot. I'm going to add some structure to this after the break. I'll. I'll jump in here, but I think it depends on where you are in stage two, when you got stuck. Let's talk more about that after the break.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It's an honor for Ryan and I to get to come to you on these airwaves to meet you, where you are, with you and your clients who are pushing the leading edge, your clinical work. And we're thankful for this opportunity and for the work that you do. And we want to invite you that if you believe in the concepts of this podcast and you find them helpful as we do, we just invite you to be able to invest and to help keep this mission and this project going. You can support us by going on Venmo and looking for At Left Podcast. That's at left P O D C A S T Left Podcast. And you can show your support once again if you yourself are in a hard position or you serve maybe less resource population and therefore affects your fees, please don't worry about giving, just continue to enjoy. But if you can, we invite you to help support this mission and keep it going. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And by the way, thanks for folks for giving to us. I know when we first started this, we were trying to decide are we going to try to monetize this podcast. Everyone tells us to. Who knows, Maybe we will someday. But when we first did a commercial to let people support us, I'm like, no one's ever going to do that. But they do. Yeah, people give on a, on a semi regular basis. So we appreciate you.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, really do.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

We actually appreciate you even if you don't. But it's nice of you I like structure. I like. I like. You know, some people get irritated by how much structure I like, but for me, with eft, the more structurally clear I am, the less I have to focus on structure. So if I really have a clear idea where I am and what I'm doing, then I just get to be more emotionally present. So to me, those two don't compete. They. They advance one another. So in the name of that, if I think about stage two rehab, if. If you're in withdrawal, re engagement, which is where we start. Stage two.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

If you're in the first session or two of that and you. And you start to go, man, I can't get depth. I can't get the view of self. I'm stuck there in stage two. Here's. Here's the negative message. You're just not in stage two or you are. You just don't have clients coming with you. And I've seen. I've seen a few certification attempts where the therapist is doing some stage two stuff. They just don't have any clients. Clients are back there in step two, you know, or tango one, you know, and that's okay. That's not. That's not an indictment on the therapist. It's just. It's usually the therapist who's just being a little excited and wants the couple to be further than they are. So if you're stuck right off the bat, there's a pretty good chance your couples tolerance windows are just still a little bit too narrow for that deep of work, and you just got to be okay with that. And it says, let me appeal to you. I just got finished with a session, and I commented on that. You know, it's like, it doesn't sound very empathic. And I was joking in my last session. I forget what the client said, but I'm like, hey, man, take your time. I work here. I just work here. And he laughed and. But it's true. I work here. And so what difference does it make to me whether you're in stage two? You know, today's May 12th when we're recording this. What difference does it make to me if you're in stage two? May 12th versus September 12th. I work here. I'm going to probably show up each day. So I just want you to adopt that stance like it's okay. Wherever they are, my job is just to show up and be with them.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I start trying to push them with agendas, and I'm trying to get the stages. That's. Which is why I don't over teach eft in the first place.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I don't want my clients to feel like they're behind. They are. They got enough pressure from the. From the pressure of the cycle. So. But yeah. So if you're stuck really early on, if you're trying to rehab stage two, you're probably just trying to rehab stage one. Got to be okay with that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Can. I love that. So even what Ryan's giving you all is the first place to help rehab stage two is reset your heart and mind. It goes back to. Ryan tells the story about put the baby to sleep energy when you're working with a withdrawer. But I do think if our clients are already struggling and we're putting our anxious energy in the system, the strong if the stronger, wiser other is panicked, I think it puts more panic in the system. So I love what you're saying there, Ryan. Just the ability to even slow yourself down, whether you know it or not. One, it helps put you back in the driver's seat, but I also think it can reestablish some safety in the room.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. And again, that's not really the topic today, but couples, I think, have taught me, again, don't train them to be therapists. You don't have to hide eft, but they don't need to know all the details of this model. That's too much for them. So I even stopped using those terms. I'll just say the next section of work.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So again, if a couple stays in section one of the work or stage one for two years, I don't want them to feel like they're failing me. I don't need them to perform for me. So I know I'm being redundant there, but it's important. So if someone's struggling at the very first of stage two, oftentimes the couple's bodies are just saying, need a little more time. Need a little more, you know, focus and tolerance. I think later on for me, as a true stage two rehab. So I was in during COVID I don't know what year that was. I think I have Covid memory loss. It would have been probably 21 or 22 for me. I've got a legit stage two couple. I saw them for like a hundred sessions or more. They had lots of trauma, and we had to work through contraindications that continued to occur during session. So we're rehabbing stage one and coming back. And so finally they went over the scale. We finished withdrawal re engagement. I think we did eight sessions with our withdrawer. We got into pursuer softening session two. By this time now, we're fully online with Pandemic. And so it feels like we're done, right? I'm just like, continuing to do deep dives, but it feels like we're doing deep dives from such a secure base. Now I'm getting indicators in my body that the work is starting to. I. I feel like we're three or four sessions from being done. I hit the button to let them in and I mean, they are screaming. I'm like, oh, what? I was. I didn't. I didn't do my job here, which is to prepare my nervous system at all times for a reactive cycle. That's what I should do before every couple session. So it caught me off guard. I had to kind of catch my breath. I never do this, but I literally got a notepad out and like, I literally wrote tempo down the middle of it. I never do that, but I'm like, I needed something to secure myself to. So. So as sue said on our podcast a few years ago, you know, like, breathe. Don't get in a hurry. Don't start jumping in there and trying to give them solutions. They're not even present there. It's just reactivity, right? And so for me, stage two rehab was like, okay, I'm going to go back from stage two into old school step two, right? Which would be kind of the space at the top of Tango two, if you're a tango person, or late Tango one. Like, I'm going to go back and redo the affect assembly. Even though we've done that a hundred times with them, and maybe not a hundred, but a lot. Right? And I've got to be okay with that. I've got to find a way to ground myself and not panic. Shout out to the triage conference coming up in spring of 26. I'm going to speak on that maybe twice. Actually, I think I'm speaking twice on that topic. When it goes into chaos, or bleed outs, as Lisa calls it, I got to find a way to catch my breath and not get into a reactive place with them, but also be with them. And that's not easy, but that's what we did. We went, right. I just. The soon as I could find a vivid somatic trigger, I can see themselves. And more importantly, I can start to, like, come back into my body. Like, because for me, once I have a really good attachment danger cue, I start to be confident in my own skill set. Then I can start to assemble things like deadly attachment messages, like D, like attachment fears, like. Like tracking their action tendencies. Now we're doing summary statements. And it was 30 minutes of really, really hard work. Okay. Again, this couple is a hundred and something sessions in. We're in pursuer softening session two, major relapse. And they were back in stage two at minute 38.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There we go.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

By one session, they just needed to go back and reorganize some. Reorganize some and have my presence. And then they. Because they had all those stage two muscles. And muscle stays with you. Your body has muscle memory. So if I'm a weightlifter and I haven't lifted in a long time, yes, I have to go back and get in shape again. But the muscle's still there for the most part. And so that's something to remember. Just because we go backwards doesn't mean we're going to stay backwards. So you're going to do some stage one work with this stage two couple, and they will sort of naturally rehab their self back to where they were most of the time.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Wow, I like that. So I like. So what we've gotten so far about rehabbing the stage two is go back to the last thing that you had. Right. Which is erased back to it, which is usually their fear, because you've already been swimming in their fear. And that is the place you can go back to. Then also slow the self of the therapist down.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And regulate.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, and regulate. And then the other one was right now, I love how you talking about organize, organize, organize, organize. That sometimes I like to call it, that resets the table. It resets their nervous system. Okay, all right. And then another one I want to give. I got this one from Gayle Palmer. And what Gayle would do, like, if the person couldn't maybe let them into their pain and fear, Gayle would switch off of that and start highlighting or seeding their longing. And I was like, gayle, what happened there? Why did you make that choice?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

She's like, james, can't be separated.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go. Longing and pain are two sides of the same coin. If they won't let me have their pain, I'll go and I'll prime their longing. Because right on the other side of that longing is the pain of the longing not coming true. So sometimes even if the person really won't let you in to say, hey, I really appreciate, like, I see how much energy you put into trying to keep this relationship in a safe place. You don't want to let things blow up. You want things to be kind of calm. You want to be cool. You want to be able to talk to your person, and y' all can have laughs and have these good times. So I really appreciate that. Am I really getting close to kind of what your hope and longing is there? Or maybe is there a little bit more that maybe we don't even understand that you're really looking for and hoping in the outcome of this situation? And sometimes they'll be willing to give you that. Stay with it, stay with it, stay with it. And then after point. But yet and still, even though this is almost like where we keep talking about the fray, but yet and still, what we notice is every time you try your very best, you get the opposite. So that's using the longing and the pain kind of switching back for. Of highlighting both of those, which, by the way, just to make another plug, we're gonna be having Dr. Marlene Best, who's probably. I would say she's one of the people I know for sure. First her, like, pioneering that kind of move of highlighting longings and pain in stage two.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And I want to. I want to clarify something that you just did. You did it really well. So if they're in a reactive place, be careful trying to get them to own the longing. You use the key word, which is prime it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yep.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So the therapist is doing most of the work. It's seeding attachment. Right. When they're in a reactive place, it's. It's a common eft mistake for beginners and sometimes not so beginners when they're in a reactive, defensive place. You can really miss a tune with. With a yes, but. Yeah. Yes, but is therapeutic language for no, I don't. I don't hear you.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Which is like three complaints. I'm like, yes, but. But don't you really miss them?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So. So that's not what we mean by going for longings.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

No.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So I'm not trying to get the client to admit. I'm not trying to get them to say, I'm not really upset. I'm just really sad because I miss my partner. That's just way ahead of them. Right. I know it sounds silly, but it's easy to do when. When the bullets are flying really fast. So. But going for those seating attachments. What sue caught it. Going for those longings. Said by me.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Activates the pain as well and activates the vulnerability. So that's. That's. That's beautiful work.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right. You have any of your rehab moves for You?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah, I think one of them. That happens fairly commonly in stage two. I'll go two real fast. One is just. They can go deep, but it can be disorienting to stay deep as long as I want them to. So in my core skills three, I do goofy stuff. For one thing, it's their long training. So I have the group walk the room four, five, six times a day. So I put them in dyads and I have them make laps around the room. And they're. Look, you know, the assignment will be, I want you to find three things in this room that you didn't know were here. I'll be like, how many hours have you been in this room? They're like 16.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

All right, so find me three things you didn't. And every time they can. They can endlessly make laps in this room and find things they didn't know were there. Oh, there's a. There's a piece of tape on the wall. I just didn't notice. I'm like, this is a great metaphor for stage two work. We're making laps in people's pain. We're not dipping down there once for an enactment. We're walking laps. And so that can be disorienting for people. Sometimes I have to rehab that some by going back to that platform. Hey, here's what we're doing. Here's why. You deserve to have someone show up for you in this place. And so that's a way to rehab, to be explicit about the why of what we're doing here.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I like that. Keep going back to the why, using it like a platform. Like, almost like they've been swimming and they get tired, but they can go rest on the platform, catch their breath, and we're gonna go swim again.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I know. You're okay. In fact, you're too okay. You've managed this. You. You've auto regulated. I wouldn't use that term with the client. But you've differentiated so heavily here. But now we have scar tissue because you're not used to inviting someone else into this place with you, which, again, I'm really glad that you can do that. But now we've overdone that, right? So now this is where the cycle gets you. Because even though you're strong, you're also really alone. And humans don't do well when they're left alone in pain. So here's why we're doing this. So to me, that's one rehab place. And people. People tend to do what James is doing right now, which Is shaking their head. Yes. Like, all right, all right, I get it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. I'm not saying that you're in some. Some kind of horrible place here. You deserve to have somebody show up. And when you were growing up and when the years in the cycle life hurt you this bad, you had no choice but to handle it yourself. I'm so glad that you can. But you deserve better. And your partner deserves to have an invite. And. And I don't want to finish my work with you without this. This matters. And this is what makes the work stick, guys. So would you stay with me for five more minutes?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Wow. I like that frame. It's. It is. It is compassionately firm. Yeah, that's why I see that one.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, that's good.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right. You said you had two. Was that both of them?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Well, just this doesn't happen very often with me in stage two. It happens all the time in stage one. And that is the caregiver disorients. Right. So we're one. Partner A is going really, really deep. And sometimes they surprise me, even with where they go. I'm like, oh, I didn't know you'd been through that. You know, like a. Like a child sexual assault or, you know, I was kidnapped or something horrible that I. That they didn't even know or they didn't. They didn't associate it with what we're working on. So the nervous system, if you surf it, it's like a wave. And if you can attune and create that safety and that. That vibe, that resonance, the wave will just take you to whatever is there. And sometimes whatever is there is pretty horrific. And so sometimes the person who's sharing with me destabilizes a little because they weren't. They didn't know they were going to talk about that that day. I'm surprised, which is my fault, by the way. My job is to be ready for the darkest moment because we go to hard things. And then the partner, though, when it's time for the blue hat, when it's time for the caregiving response, they're just like, whoa, I'm disoriented, or I'm so pissed at that stepdad, I want to kill him. Which I appreciate, actually, but it's a little. A little not so attuned. It's not so comfort oriented. So I think being ready for that at all times, you know, making sure I get that tourniquet on, the person who just did this deep, deep share, making sure they're double affirmed, and then me Being ready to go, to go do my parts, work with that caregiver and really, really validate the hesitation. And you know how this happened to me a month ago at a hetero couple and the male went to a first grade memory of what I would call an abusive teacher. Verbally abusive, you know, and the. And then the partner was just like, I would. I was like, I think I asked the question, if you could show up right now and little so and so is hidden in the corner behind that desk, and you see those big tears, what would you go do? So I'm, I'm. I'm prepping this person to be like, you know, I would pull them in my lap or something, you know, and love on them. And that's not what they said. She's like, I would kill that teacher. I think I would throw a book at her, you know, and it's appropriate. I kind of like, yeah, I kind of want to also, but it doesn't land right. So I've got to, like, reorder that and find that nurturing sort of side to the partner or at least invite that nurturing instinct to be there. And then I actually didn't mind at the end after the comfort and the contact and. Can you take this in? We sort of finished a mission and I kind of liked being like, you know what? That was not okay. And, man, I'm so sorry you went through that. I wish we could go fight for you. You did not deserve that. Like, as we're zooming back out, so the order, the order of the caregiving system can be something to rehab.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There we go. I like that, Ryan. That's a good one. Helping reset the order. And that is something sometimes I do have. You do have to speak to it sometimes directly. Like, I so appreciate and love that, you know, that you. You want to make sure that they're not misunderstanding you and they're not misunderstanding your intentions. Beautiful thing. Just not right now.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. And I remember. It's funny that you say that. I remember. I remember watching his eyes. He being the client who was doing the deep work in first grade. And. And as his partner was saying something like, I would throw a book at her or something. I mean, it was. It was kind of appreciated.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

But the eyes were definitely not, like, in a resonant. You're. You're. You're showing up for me way.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Gotcha.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So when I reordered her, she was like, oh, yeah. And then she reaches for contact.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And there's the touch. Then she's soothing. And they're the eyes. Take in the like, okay, somebody's got my back. Somebody's with me. Right. And so then we want to finish that moment before we go back to wanting to defend him. But that is so easy to do.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I think we all do it. I do it with my kids all the time. I respond with that. Protect and want to protect you.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Energy. The problem is.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

It's just out of order, man. I know I got to be with you before I can do anything. Solution or protection oriented. And so for a couple who's been misattuned like this one has for 40 years, the chances that they're going to be out of order are really high. Even in stage two.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. I know that there's. I don't want to speak into gender norms, but what you just said, ran, I think is. Is a powerful line for people typically like that have been socialized as men and cisgender. Cisgender heterosexual relationships. I've got to first be with you before I can protect you. That's a big line because you'll have them. Like, they want to. They're wanting to move to the. I just had this case a couple days ago, like, where it's like they want to move to the practical that they sometimes dismiss and miss the power of being present.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. And it robs that person their protector.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

It robs that person of the. Of the opportunity to even say why they're protecting.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go. Exactly right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I love you. You're valuable. You mean you're worth. That doesn't even get said because they skip so ahead to the fight or to the solution. So we also need to make sure we don't do that as eft clinicians.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I like. Another part of rehab is sometimes we just gotta make work more explicitly with the caregiving component in order. In order.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Hey, I like that, Ryan. That even helps me with the stuff we've been talking about with caregiver stuff in stage one.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Working more explicitly with the caregiver in order.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And speaking of rehab, I want to circle back to your point earlier, which I think is really great. I don't know if you credited somebody else or what, but, you know, in a stage two rehab moment, it's a nice thought to be like, well, let me rehab back to where I know we were on. That's good because that gives you an orientation. You know, if I know that they can show up in fear. Fear's a great thing. To go back to.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Or if affect assembly is really where they were making progress and then you get stuck. Well, take. Go back to what was working. I like. That's good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I give Lisa some credit. I mean, I remember one time before alive estate, my estate shoe live. I was at least. What would you say to me? And she got on. She just got on and made a video. And pretty much she was using Jim Furrow's stage two pursuer softening map. And what she said to me that day has always stuck with me. Follow the fear in stage two. Follow the fear. It'll get you home. Just follow the fear. Keep following the fear. So even for me, if I'm trying to negative you a self and it doesn't work, there's fear. Just follow the fear back up to the fear and it'll get you there. If I try and get them to reveal, they're blocking me on the reveal because the fear is too overwhelming. Go talk about the fear and you shrink the block. If they can't reach is because there's a fear that's taking over. Deal with the fear. You shrink the block, and then they can reach.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I like it. It gives you a clear structure, a clear ladder.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You know, we don't want to stay in the fear forever.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

No.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Because below the fear is really important stuff.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Good catch, Ryan. Because that's another thing me and Ryan have been talking about on certification tapes. Hear me out, y'. All Talking about fear in stage two. Absolutely necessary. But you've been doing that in stage one. So I would make a hard case of if all you're doing is having them pass an enactment about their fear in stage two. You just did a really good stage one enactment. We want. I mean, you've heard us saying it, but it is that important. Because even I was showing this tape in Maine, and they saw when the pursuer had to slow down and actually say, they're negative yourself, it was a different pause. She could talk about her fear without even pausing because she's had reps at that. But when she had to turn and say, and I believe I'm too much, her body was like, don't say that.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So anyway.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And so I think that's a takeaway for me is, you know, if you think about a ladder. Right. It's okay to go up and down that ladder based on what's happening right now.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

No matter where you are in this stage, I mean, you can go too deep too early, but besides that, you could always go back up the ladder. So if. If fear is kind of halfway down the ladder, we know below that is view of self, we know below that is deepest attachment fears, fear of reaching for comfort. And then the very base of the ladder is most vulnerable attachment need. At any point, you can climb back up the ladder as the couple needs to. To. To rehab some. Some work that's maybe a little bit less risky, you know. So I think about Marlene. We're going to bring her on. I just watched her video last week for the 100th time, and she's doing pursuer softening. And she asked this lady, I forget her name. She asked like 19 times in a row. So if you imagined, even right now reaching out for Sean in your worst moment and you were to reach out for him, what would that be like for you? Just over and over and over and helping this lady process, that would be terrifying, right? And so the, the more often she said it, the less terrifying it became, right? Which then set the partner up to come in with a certainty, you know, and she goes to him in stage two and says, what would it be like if you were invited? And he's like, I would love that. I would love that opportunity. And I mean, that pursuer looks at him like he had three heads. That is not what the cycle's been telling her for all those years. So. So that's that deep stage two stuff we're trying to go for. But if a couple. If you're in the middle of some of that and the couple can't do it, it's, nope, just climb back up the ladder to what they can do.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go. All right, y', all, thank you so much for letting us talk about it. So hopefully we'll have that episode recorded soon with our guests that we've told you about. Dr. Marlene Best, Jim Furrow and Catherine Ream. Just giving like the kind of like some of the three leading minds of the process, research and maybe process kind of focus in stage two. Really appreciate you.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

We're recording it next week. Stay tuned.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, thank you so much.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at pushtheleadingedge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com youm can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website, dochawklpc.com.