143. Stage 2 Series: “When Every Path Hurts: Getting the Most from You in Stage 2 EFT”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 143: “When Every Path Hurts: Getting the Most from You in Stage 2 EFT”

Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Reyna
Air Date: July 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the therapist's inner world and presence during challenging Stage 2 EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) work. Drs. Hawkins and Reyna explore what it means to be the "stronger, wiser other" for clients in moments when every available path brings pain, and how therapists can resource and regulate themselves to facilitate deep emotional work. The hosts draw on personal stories, supervision insights, and practical metaphors, emphasizing the importance of confidence, relentless empathy, and attuned use of self.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Consistency and Therapist Dedication

• [01:53–03:18] The episode opens with appreciation for therapists' commitment to showing up every day, paralleling the relentless practice of Navy SEALs.
• Dr. Reyna: “We come in the office, get our tissues ready, get our coffee and water bottles, and we face the cycle session after session... So thank you for your consistency.”
• Dr. Hawkins: “Thank you for how many hours you spend on your craft. We appreciate you.”

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2. Introduction to the Episode’s Theme: Therapist Confidence in Stage 2

• [03:18–04:33] The central theme is the therapist’s internal regulation and ability to project confidence during Stage 2.
• Distinction between “being the stronger, wiser other” (a la Bowlby) not as hierarchical, but as a grounding, steady presence for clients venturing into difficult emotions.
• Dr. Reyna: “You have to have an ability to say, I see the fear, I see the good reasons why we would want to avoid this. But I believe in you. We can do this. We’re staying here. And you have to have that in you.”

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3. Metaphor & Confidence: The “Been Through the Haunted House” Story

• [04:33–06:41] Dr. Hawkins uses a childhood story about haunted houses to illustrate how clients need therapists to embody calm, informed confidence:
  • Dr. Hawkins: “Occasionally a friend would come along who’d been through the house already, and that changed everything... That’s us in Stage 2. That confidence... is second to none because your clients are looking at you. They don’t know what Stage 2 is.”
  • Confidence matters more than explanation—clients need safety, not a technical guide.

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4. The Therapist’s Internal Dialogue & Motivation

• [06:46–08:59]
  • What mantras, memories, mentors, or values can therapists draw on to remain present in the hardest moments?
  • Dr. Hawkins: “You have to find some way to speak to yourself... What would you need to hear in that moment that would help give you the courage to stay there and help walk the client through it?”
  • Dr. Hawkins describes imagining himself as a medic on a battlefield—no one gets left behind—a metaphor for empathic determination and seeing clients’ pain as human and worthy of engagement.

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5. Navigating the “Stuck Spots” of Stage 2

• [09:08–11:46]
  • There is no “pain-free” path in these moments: either avoid and cause deferred pain, or enter and cause immediate, healing pain.
  • Dr. Hawkins: “There is not an answer that does not involve pain in that moment.” [10:21]
  • The task is to ready the therapist’s nervous system to choose the pain that moves toward healing, not further harm.

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6. Empathy vs. Necessary Challenge

• [11:46–14:14]
  • Empathy can sometimes pull therapists away from helpful challenge, especially if over-used.
  • Dr. Reyna: “Sometimes a good therapist’s empathy can get in the way of their attunement... I can have empathy for your discomfort, but I also have empathy for what happens if we keep repeating this.”
  • Use of “we” language and transparency (“My body even wants to let you out of this, but my body also feels concerned...”) helps share the emotional load.

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7. The Function of Pain: Two Types

• [14:46–15:14]
  • Dr. Hawkins: “The two pain options that we’re stuck in are not the same pain. If your eyes tell me, ‘Don’t make me do this,’ and I go away, I’ve made you happy now, but hurt you later. Or I can hurt you some now, but move towards healing later.”

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8. Staying in the Process: Relentlessness and Repetition

• [16:22–18:39]
  • Dr. Reyna uses the metaphor of a surgeon removing a tumor, emphasizing the importance of thoroughness in emotional work, despite discomfort for both client and therapist.
  • Dr. Hawkins: “I’m relentlessly fighting for that person and for that relationship. Because if, again, if we leave a bunch of unregulated... pain... that’s much more likely to show up later and do harm.”
  • Stage 2 is about repeat exposures to vulnerable emotions to create new, lasting patterns.

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9. Therapist Self-Regulation and Use of Intensity

• [19:04–21:53]
  • Each therapist has individual strengths and tendencies—knowing when and how to dial up or down intensity matters.
  • Dr. Reyna: “It was your intensity. You fought for us even more than we were fighting for us, and that became contagious.”
  • Dr. Hawkins: “Our clients are not fragile. They’re vulnerable, but not fragile. So you can be assertive as long as you’re paying attention to safety and alliance and repair if it goes too far.”
  • Both discuss using their natural presence and even personal competitiveness (in Hawkins’ case) to fuel persistence for the client’s sake.

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10. The Dangers of Over-Validation

• [21:53–24:41]
  • Using celebration or validation at the wrong time can undermine depth:
  • Dr. Reyna: "I found myself doing that sometimes with validation, and I would celebrate, celebrate, celebrate, and lift them right up out of the paddy... Good idea. Wrong timing, wrong timing, wrong dose."
  • Validation is powerful but must be intentional—not a reflex to soothe therapist nerves or retreat from discomfort.

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11. Therapist Self-Reflection & “Homework” for Listeners

• [24:41–26:01]
  • Hosts encourage listeners to reflect on their own process:
    • What are you doing when you’re at your best in depth work?
    • How do you regulate yourself?
    • How can you accentuate your strengths and be honest about your growing edges?
  • Dr. Reyna: “How do you find what you’re already doing well and... accentuate the things that you’re doing well?... And what is it you’re trying to get better at?”

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12. The Structure and Value of Practice

• [26:01–29:07]
  • Practice and repeated exposure are key. Don’t be afraid to “go back into the torture pit” with clients even after a successful emotional moment—it’s the repetition that creates real change.
  • Dr. Hawkins: “You can’t want to be strong. You gotta practice it, right? ... You give them a structure to go through life’s hardest things. But that takes confidence on our part to continue to go, even when things are really good, right back into darkness.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Reyna [04:33]: “As the therapist, you have to have an ability to say, I see the fear... But I believe in you. We can do this. We’re staying here.”
• Dr. Hawkins [05:55]: “They’re looking at you with eyes like, what are we doing here? ... They need confidence. They need to know that this is a hard place, but a place that you have a plan.”
• Dr. Hawkins [10:21]: “There is not an answer that does not involve pain in that moment.”
• Dr. Reyna [12:49]: “Because every time you go away, it just makes the voice of the cycle even louder... Because I also see in your eyes you really want this to be different. You really want to do it. It just gets really hard and scary. So we’ll do it together.”
• Dr. Hawkins [14:52]: “If your eyes tell me, don't make me do this, and I go away, I've made you happy now, but hurt you later. Or I can hurt you some now, but move towards healing later.”
• Dr. Hawkins [18:40]: “I'm relentlessly fighting for that person and for that relationship.”
• Dr. Reyna [24:49]: “What are you doing with you? How are you regulating you?... And how can you continue to implement that more?”
• Dr. Hawkins [27:24]: “Great job. Unbelievable. Here we go again, right? Because the body needs so many reps. That’s what can’t be cheated in life.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:53] – Opening gratitude and therapist consistency
• [03:18] – Introduction to today’s topic: therapist confidence in Stage 2
• [04:33] – Haunted house metaphor and “stronger, wiser other”
• [06:46] – The therapist’s internal dialogue and mantras
• [09:08] – Stuck points: choosing the path of pain that heals
• [11:46] – Empathy vs. necessary challenge
• [14:46] – The two pains: immediate vs. deferred
• [16:22] – The metaphor of surgical thoroughness, relentless advocacy
• [19:04] – Intensity, personal style, and self-regulation
• [21:53] – Dangers of over-validation and celebratory interventions
• [24:41] – Self-reflection “homework” for listeners
• [26:01] – The value of repetition in deep change
• [27:24] – “Back into the torture pit”: practice and lasting transformation

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Summary Takeaways

• Therapists in Stage 2 EFT must cultivate deep self-awareness, confidence, and a calm, regulating presence—clients need to feel their therapist “has been there before.”
• Effective use of self involves finding and using personal metaphors, internal mantras, and relational strengths—while steering clear of over-soothing or over-validating as an escape.
• There is no path that doesn’t involve pain at this stage, but the therapist’s job is to help clients experience the pain that heals, not the pain that entrenches.
• Repetition and lingering in depth, even when it’s tempting to “wrap up,” is crucial for lasting change—building new pathways in clients’ nervous systems.
• Therapists are encouraged to reflect on what resources and strengths they bring into the room and intentionally implement them more often.

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For listeners new and seasoned, this episode is a masterclass in the nuanced, courageous, and often invisible “work beneath the work” of advanced EFT.

Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. If you're listening to this in 2026, I'd love to invite you to three externships. First week of August, 2026 is Arkansas EFT Center. We offer discounts for repeaters. Come train with us first week of September. I'll be out in Arizona, Scottsdale, Phoenix area with Rachel and the crew. The three day externship. I know we have some seats available. And then September 15th to the 18th, Virginia Beach, Virginia on the Beach, Hampton Road, ZFT. We have some seats as well. Come join us. Send a friend or come and repeat with us. Love to see you.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

All right. And I've got a couple externships too. I'll be in Ohio at the, at the Ohio State University August 5th through the 8th. Also I'll be in Alaska in the beautiful city of Anchorage, August 26th through 29th. And I have a specialty training that I'll be doing with Cindy Zane. And it's on meeting clients in the extremes of protection. That'll be in Las Vegas on September 18th through the 19th. And of course the big event, the EFT World Summit coming up in Vancouver where you'll get to hear from some of the leading experts in attachment science and eft. With so many pre workshops and breakouts, and then you just get to see what EFT looks like in the various EFT communities around the world that will be held May 9 through the 11.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

All right, y', all, glad to be back here with you. And as always, we like to start off with some thank yous. I, you know, as I jump into this, I just, I think it's, I just thank you for the consistency, you know, that's been in my workout journey when, you know, you could think about all these goals of running times, weight lifting, pounds loss. But the big thing that everyone talks about is consistency. And I think about that for therapists. Like, we know every time we show up, we have no idea what the cycle's gonna be like. We have no idea. But every day we show up as therapists. We come in the office, we get our tissues ready, we get our coffee and water bottles and we, and we face the cycle session after session with individuals, with couples and with family. So thank you for your Consistency.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I'm similar. I wanna say thank you for the number of hours. I was reading yet another book on Navy Seals. They spend about 300 days a year either deployed or in training, which is one of the highest in the military, which is why they're. Which is why their precision is kind of second to none or right there with Delta, anyway. But, you know, therapists do that too.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

We practice and practice and then when we don't practice, we attend trainings and attend trainings, and it's relentless. So if you're listening to this, I bet I'm talking to you. Thank you for how many hours you spend on your craft. We appreciate you.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Which leads right into the topic we want to talk about today. And I'm not good at titling things. Ryan's better with titles, but I think today is really about, you know, getting the most out of you as a therapist or regulating you in Stage two is the thought that went through my mind. And I think the part here, it's Jim. Also. Jim. I want to give Jim Furrow credit. If you haven't watched the episode where we had Jim and.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Or listened.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Or. That's right. Or. Or. Or listen to it with Jim. With Dr. Jim Furrow, Marlene Best and Katherine Ream.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It was a good one.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah, go check it out. And in it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Sorry that my sound was terrible on that episode, but. Oh, well, that's my fault.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

It's all good, man. Look, I was glad that you were willing to do it while you were on the road, you know, appreciate you and so. But Jim said something about talking about the confidence of the therapist to do Stage two or. And I know sometimes this, you know, in our. In society, like this phrase gets a little bit of pushback, but Bolby talks about being the stronger, wiser other. And that's not hierarchical in a sense, but what it is saying is, as the therapist, you have to have an ability to say, I see the fear, I see the good reasons why we would want to avoid this. But I believe in you. We can do this. We're staying here. And you have to have that in you.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Two images come to mind for me. One, when I. In my growing up years, I was an 80s kid, all right, And Halloween was a really big deal, probably too much. I look back and go, that's a little crazy how much we did there. But those were the days of Thriller, right? Michael Jackson, it was huge. And so we would go to haunted houses in my little small town in Arkansas. And that wasn't My favorite gig, because it get a little out of hand at times. You know, folks would jump out of the rafters and, like, tackle people and, you know, and you think it's going to be fun. Then you kind of get there and you're like, I don't know. There's chainsaw noise over here. And I remember putting my hands. They'd make you put your hands in a bowl, and it had grapes in there that looked like eyeballs. You know, they're trying to scare you.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But occasionally a friend would come along who'd been through the house already, and that changed everything, because I'm like, oh, Charlie, he's already been through this. Like, he knows where the surprises are. And so if I could just follow Charlie, man, that would change everything. Right. So the surprise element was key, and that's us in stage two. That confidence that Jim's talking about is second to none because your clients are looking at you. They don't know what stage two is. I personally don't tell them about. I don't go through extensive details on eft that. To me, that's not helpful and might even be harmful to them to give them too much detail.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Wow.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right? So they're looking at you with eyes like, what are we doing here? Right. Or. Or. And it's not like they need an explanation. They need confidence. They need to know that this is a deep. A hard place, but a place that you have a plan. Like, you have enough structure here. You're not just firing wildly at deep emotion for no apparent reason.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. So that's really key. That stronger, wiser, other.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Wow. Okay. That's good. And it's not just. How do you say?

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

It's. They need confidence. Not a lot of explanation, just confidence.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Here we go. I know where we're going. We can do this together.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Like, even. Even the tone of that voice, it's not. It's not directive like I'm making you do it, but it's like, hey, I've been here before.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

This is.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

This is important, what we're doing. I have a plan.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I'm not making this up on the spot kind of thing. And their bodies can then start to feel safer with the process, and that's

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

everything, and that is big. I honestly do believe that Ryan. So I want to go catch what Ryan's saying to make this practical and useful. So you have to find some way to speak to yourself, I think. What. What. How are you going to coach yourself As a therapist, if you're listening to this, what is it like? If you were to maybe, let's do this with you. If you were to see yourself in that session and you can see the discomfort in your client, you can see that there's this moment of possible breakthrough, but their body is hesitant, they're scared, and their shame is coming in. But then we turn and we look at you and you can see all this. You see the moment playing out, but even you feel a little bit hesitant. What would you need to hear in that moment that would help give you the courage to stay there and help walk the client through it? I don't know what that is. If it's like a phrase that you need to remember from a training, if there's been someone that's been like a coach or a mentor to you, if there's some attachment figure from your life, if you are somehow connected to a higher power, divine figure in some way, if there's some kind of mantra or phrase like, what is it you're going to do? And I'll tell you, even for me, what I had to say to myself, I had to take. Almost like it takes me back to my days as an airman in the military. And I would have to say, no one gets left behind on the battlefield. This person is on the battlefield of life. They've been hurt, they've been dropped. Because what I do a lot of rent. I walk myself into their story. So when they start telling me their story of their childhood, I picture myself as someone who's like an observer in the movie with them. And it helps evoke empathy in me for my client. And that empathy helps me hang in there. Because I also picture what does life look like if we all keep staying afraid and going away from this? What would my client's life look like? And I'm like, ah, that's not what they paid me for. I'm going to fight for them today.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And almost in a way, it's like, you know, and I'll tell you this, it helps me too. It's like I'm going to fight for them in a way. I wish somebody would have fought for me in those places. That's what kind of helps hold me in there in a way. So I think that's the first part is what do you need to find that motivates you to say, this is scary, but it's necessary.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's good. You said a lot of really good stuff there. Like five things that come to mind. I think. I think we often need someone to believe in us more than we do.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You know, and I don't. I don't love the. The notion that we're in the leadership chair with eft, but in some ways we are that stronger, wiser. Other, we're in their protective, sort of slightly leading place. And I think back to coaches who, you know, pushed me more than I thought I could do. Right. Like you, you can usually do way more than you think you can. And I know for me, I've evolved over the years. I'm still growing. But I remember when I was a trainer in training, being in some live sessions with a lot of pressure. You know, Sue Johnson's going to watch whatever happened. She's watching. That's. That's a funny thing. Not to mention a hundred other people watching. And I remember being, especially with the withdraw or three, and we're right on the edge. They got tears in their eyes and what they're looking at me to say, come on, man, don't do this to me.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And so the empathy moment is really tricky right there.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because part of me says, hey, I'm not gonna make you do this. Another part of me goes, I know what's gonna happen to you if you don't.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So it's a hard moment. It's a stuck spot. And I think we have to have our nervous systems ready for those stuck spots. Cause there's not an answer that doesn't involve pain.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Ooh, hold on. There is not an answer that does not involve pain in that moment.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. Either go with you saying, don't make me do this, and I'm going to get you hurt, because we're going to leave a bunch of painful things unregulated, which we know what happens if someone walks away with tons of unregulated pain, it manifests itself at the next cycle and they get hurt and they're lonely. Right. Which is why they called me in the first place. So now I've been too accommodating and I left too much room for the cycle to do harm. So I'm causing pain in that way. Or they look at me with those big eyes to say, come on, man, don't make me do this. And I'm like, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm with you. We're doing it together. But here we go, another push, which is also painful. Right. So either way, we're working with pain. We're going to cause some pain. So how do I get my nervous system to be more ready in that moment to move to that second option, which is what I want to do probably every time in stage two.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Maybe most of the time in stage one, but not always in stage one. Sometimes it might be okay to go back up and do more cycle framing and help them get clarity and de escalate. But in stage two, that's rarely the best move. Stage two, it's usually green light go. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And I want to stay with the image you're giving Ryan because. So I think I love what you said because it reminds me of quote you used to always say sometimes, sometimes a good therapist, empathy can get in the way of their attunement or some kind of funny phrase you used to say.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Like that that's big.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And that's a big one. Because I could have empathy for. Yeah, you don't want to do this. This is horribly uncomfortable. I can see how much shame this. This makes you feel so helpless and hopeless. It's going to make you feel really small.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And I can have empathy for that. But what I'm talking. And I like what you get, but I also have empathy for if we keep repeating. Because every time you get to go away, it just. I'll tell my clients this one too. Because every time you go away, it just makes the voice of the cycle even louder because not only now have you gone away, you're a person who gives up. You're a person who quits. You're a person who can overcome this. So I get it. So that's why I'm staying here. Because that's not fair to you. Because I also see in your eyes you really want this to be different. You really want to do it. It just gets really hard and scary.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

So we'll do it together. Right? So one, I want to give what happened there was. I think it is. I'll use a little bit of Leanne into influence there. I'll. I'll resource them with the we. I'll go there with you and I'll start using a lot of. We can do this. We can face this. And then I'll. I've used some of you if they're partner like, because you do a good job. Like, and I even see in your partner's eyes. I see your partner's body here with you. Like they're taking. It's like almost like, you know what? You don't have enough in your limbic system. I'll use my limbic system I'll use the part. I'll use Ryan's. Like, I'll grab whatever I can in here, Right?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And then I want to give Lisa Palmer Olson some credit. And then just transparency. So I see it even right now, I think I see in your eyes that you would love nothing more than for me to go away from this if we could just get out of this spot. But I also see if we do that, I see where that could leave us. So I'm being transparent. I'm speaking what's in the room. And my body even wants to let you out of this, but my body also feels concerned that if I don't do this, I see where it will leave you in the same place all over again. So several things. I'm expressing my empathy for the stuck place. I'm expressing my empathy for if they don't. I'm trying. I'm. I'm being transparent with the moment, which helps regulate my body. Right. Is why I do that one. It slows me down. And I'm bringing my client into the knowing with me and that I see the moment and validating the good reasons. But also it's like, but we got to stay here.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And you say and we. So you're sharing your limbic energy and. Or the partners.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's a whole different thing. If I've got a heavy load and three people are helping me lift it, that's it. I mean, it really changes it. It literally changes the blood in the brain. So. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But by the end of that, what it really does. I know this sounds funny. Like, what I notice, it does. It orients me and it keeps me focused. But I also see that it does something to the client. But the big thing I'm harping on, on this, this episode is I'm doing all of that framing to help nail me down and keep me focused on the target of the moment.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because the two pain options that we're stuck in are not the same pain.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yes.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

If you. If your eyes tell me, don't make me do this, and I go away. I've made you happy now, but hurt you later.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Ooh.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Or I can hurt you some now, but move towards healing later. And so that's the confidence and the clarity the therapist has to have in these moments in stage two to go deep. So we'll talk more about that after the break.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yes. So let's Talk about the SV Focus Lab coming up October 1st through the 3rd of 2026, right here in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Or you can stay right where you are because it'll also be online as a hybrid option. And right now, we're still dialing it in. But the theme this year is, over the three days, we're going to look at each behavioral system of the adult romantic bond. And what we're gonna set up is, in each day, how do you find the opening to go into the caregiving system, into the attachment system, into the sexual system of maybe longings, fears, and blocks? So I'm really excited about that. This kind of total focus in these three days.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I'm excited. We're gonna have themes of the day, so I think that's really cool. Like, day one, we're gonna be focused on that emotional system from multiple angles, and day two will be completely focused on that caregiving system. Day three will be completely or mostly focused on the sexual system. So really gonna lay out things we don't normally lay out. Come join us at the lab.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

All right. All right. Welcome back, Ryan. So let's get back into that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. So I was just thinking, you know, you. I love your metaphor that you think about of being a combat medic and not leaving someone on the field. That's a great one. I think about it a little bit differently, but similarly, we're staying medical here, I guess. And I'm thinking, first of all, I'm thinking about a very specific situation. So I don't want to apply this to all of eft, but I flashback to my last two or three cases that completed the process, terminated, did good stage two work, where I really have both people who are pretty undefended now. As Sylvina says, they've laid down the swords, then they've laid down the shields, and that's great, but now you got to know what to do with it. Right. And so I'm thinking about that withdrawal re engagement process, which is the drip by drip. Right. That's what they talked about on our episode. Like, withdrawal reengagement is drip by drip. Pursuer softening is the deep dive. Right. So drip by drip meanings a series of deep dives. I actually think of it like an on. What would it be? Oncological surgeon. Yeah, I have no idea what that actually is like, but I would imagine, you know, if you. If you're doing a procedure on someone to remove a tumor, like they're being really diligent to get as much of the tumor as possible. The worst case scenario would be they get half the tumor, sew somebody up, Right. And then that tumor expands or whatever. And I'm sorry to use a, you know, potentially morbid image there, but that's literally what kind of how it feels. I'm like, I don't want to leave a bunch of wounds and trauma memories and unregulated pain and shame in here. Like, I've got. I've got the body cavity open. Let's go get it. Come on. Even if it makes them uncomfortable. Right? And so whether this is trauma memories, whether this is negative use of self deepest attachment, fear, shame, right? Those kind of painful things to me, and they're not tumors. It's not a perfect metaphor because that kind of pain has a function, and it's just very human of them. But that's what motivates me to keep coming. Oftentimes the withdrawal is like, really? Again? I'm like, yeah, here we go again, right? And here we go again. And here we go again. And there's a relentlessness about that.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right, that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That I get feedback on from all the way to sue, to other trainers, to people who are watching me, they're like, man, you're relentless. I'm like, I'm relentlessly fighting for that person and for that relationship. Because if, again, if we leave a bunch of unregulated, unresponsive, unresponded to painful aspects, we. We know that that's much more likely to show up later in a cycle and do harm.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

What's motivating? Like, what cues you in, Ryan, to even mount up that fighting for the client? Like, what. What cues you in? And how do you best metabolize that energy to finish the mission?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's a good question. Ask that again. What cues me?

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah, let's go with that. I break it because it was two questions, kind of like one, what do you mean? Like, what do you notice? Like, what's the last little thing that Ryan notices that maybe even brings it? And that, like, I'm gonna fight for you energy.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's interesting because, you know, feedback from me over the years with clients, if you know me, I'm not Leanne. And so presence is still the thing, but there's hundreds of ways to do that. So my best clients over the years, when I'm getting feedback, I try to do follow ups a year, 18 months after, you know, and what they'll say is, it was your intensity. Like, you fought for us even more than we were fighting for us, and that became contagious. And so I think that gets into. I don't know.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Well, that leads me to my next question then. How have you. Because I know you're and also know, Ryan, you're very responsible and thoughtful of your intensity in your everyday life. So how have you learned how to use your intensity in eft in a way that you feel like. I think I've dialed it in.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. I'm always trying to look at my client's eyes. I think eyes tell the story, you know, and as my intensity a little too much right now, dial that back. You know, especially in stage one, I'm always moving to repair. You know, I love to use the phrase, you deserve to have a better form of love. Honestly, you deserve this. And yet here's the work we have to do to go get it. So just moving back and forth with repairing alliance movements if the intensity gets too much and just seeing what my clients can do, but it's also remembering this is an experiential model. Our clients are not fragile. They're vulnerable, but not fragile. And so usually they're too stable in the cycle. So you can be assertive as long as you're paying attention to safety and alliance and repair if it goes too far.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But again, I. I'm not trying. I would love to be better in ways like Leanne, and maybe I will as I get older. Maybe I can just have more of a natural, nurturing presence, but as it is, I don't. So I have to win in other ways. And I will be honest with this is something I'm not super proud of, is I get competitive. You know, as a former athlete, I don't like to lose. And so, you know, I know that if I, if I stop short with this withdrawal shame, I'm probably going to lose. And I don't like that feeling. And again, that's the part I'm not proud of. At the same time, you know, you're paying a lot of money and a lot of time, and this matters a lot. Maybe you want someone who's going to go to bat for you and compete, and I'm that person.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

As long as it doesn't make you get lost in egotism, it's on the behalf of the client. I'm like, keep that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I mean, it's what happens.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I don't. I mean, because we don't want therapists that just give in to the negative cycle and let it wins. So anyway, I think, you know, and mine was on the reverse round, you know, where I had to learn to get the most out of me is let's see how one, I think you helped me with using me to deepen and like, even just my nonverbal things that I do, it's not always. It's like the way I breathe my hand to the chest moment. The way I just, like, I literally. Like, when they say something deep, I fall back on my chair. Sometimes I notice I'll be like, so hold on. Whoa. Okay. I think I'm starting to see it here now, because I really. I like, I let the scene knock me back, and I found that that has an impact on clients. But also, here's one round I had to learn was how to appropriately use celebration and validation in stage two. I didn't realize I was. It's almost like. So I remember me and Ryan were talking about this one time. Like, we both do cold plunges, but there's a time when it's best to use cold plunges and a time when not to. If you just did a huge pump workout where you've been lifting weights, not the best time to use cold plunge after that, because you did that in order to create inflammation that creates muscle growth and strength. The cold plunge is meant to take away the inflammation, so it's going to counteract the work you just did. I found myself doing that sometimes with validation, and I would celebrate, celebrate, celebrate, and lift them right up out of the paddy.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's good.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And I'm like, james, good idea. Wrong timing. Wrong timing, wrong dose.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's good stuff right there.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That was a huge lesson. And I go back to that. I learned that one really quick. When we had to certify back in the whole day, we had to transcribe tapes. Oh, my goodness. I was like, why did you do that, James? You lifted them right out of it and had to reset the table.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's deep stuff, listeners. I hope you caught that. If you're. If you're halfway asleep on the treadmill, wake up. Because validation is such a powerful thing, but we need to be intentional with it and start to realize how am I affecting the energy in the room. And you can validate so much that you. You sort of get the pain out of the room. And now we are really not. We're not very focused on our target. I had the same problem with Jim Furrow giving me that feedback when I was doing demonstration lives. He's like, man, you are constantly encouraging them. Why are you doing that? It's like, because I'm nervous. Do you do that at home? Like, no. I mean, not that much, but. But I. And I will defend myself slightly. They're doing a very vulnerable thing for me. Being watched by a hundred people. So I'm constantly trying to say, hey, you're doing good. That's awesome. Good job. But you got to be careful with that because it can take you out of depth.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, you know, I hope so. Here's what I want to give y' all some homework. We don't normally give y' all homework on this podcast.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I'm writing it down.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But I do want you to think about, like, in moments of depth of, like, when, you know, you're just on your A game, not it's like, what you're doing to the client, but what are you doing with you? How are you regulating you? How are you being aware of your presence, of your interventions, of your thoughts, like, what are you doing when you're on your A game? And all I'm trying to push you all for here is. And how can you continue to implement that more? How do you find what you're already doing well and, like, almost, I would say, accentuate the things that you're doing well and maybe say, well, James, I have no idea. You know, I just feel like I keep making mistakes. That's okay. And what is it you're trying to get better at? What is it you're trying to do? What is it you need to change? So I guess it's just more. It's like the hope of this episode is, I know we've done a lot of stage two, you know, focus stuff, but we, you know, Ryan and I, while we teach you all this, like, very practical stuff, we also recognize that you are the tool in the room. That EFT is a model that was built for us to be able to use as human beings. I think that's something sue did very well. She didn't try and make the model and make the model seem like it is the thing. She built a model for people that had to be implemented by people, and I think she did a very good job at that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I like it. I want to make one more comment on the previous. If it's okay, we're out of order a little bit. But when I'm thinking through, what's hard for me is if it's going too well. Right. So I'm thinking about withdraw re engagement session three, which to me is about halfway through usually the work. And, you know, by this point, everybody gets what we're doing here. So we. I start with my summary. You know, I use a platform maybe, and we go insane. I do most of my stage two sessions in a scene which could be anything. In this person's life that's very activated with things like shame and deep fear. And we go do it. And by now, this person does it. And we got big depth and big tears. And the pursuer interrupts in an appropriate way with a big caregiving reach, which is beautiful. And then I work with that. And then I work with, can you take that in? Can you close your eyes even now and breathe this in? What do you notice in your body? They give you the cue of like, I feel so much better. I feel peaceful. I feel relief. They look at each other for 30 seconds and I just shut up. Because attachment's happening. It's this beautiful moment. They both got tears in their eyes. You're holding hands. And they take a deep breath and look at me. And we go through a summary. And guess what we do then go right back into the torture pit.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And they're like, really? I'm like, yeah, really? Great job. Unbelievable. Here we go again, right? Because the body needs so many reps. That's what can't be cheated in life. You can't wanna be strong. You gotta practice it, right? And so that's where that confidence comes in of like, hey, I could easily take this win and be done for the day. But we got 30 minutes left. We're going back and doing this again, potentially two more times. And so that is a tricky thing that is not just intuitive. Like, this is why we train. This is why we have a tested map that reps and reps and reps and reps and reps in withdrawal. Re engagement in these torture chambers of deepest attachment fears and negative view of self and fear and all the pain, like going there multiple times and practicing, that's what creates the lasting. No relapse. Because life is going to hurt that withdrawer again at a similar depth that's in this torture room. And if we've built so many bridges where they're whoever, whatever gender they are, where their body goes, oh, I don't have to do this alone anymore. I can get a signal out. I know my partner's gonna come fight for me and come find me. You change that person's everything. You change their view of self, you change their view of other. And maybe even more importantly than that, you give them a structure to go through life's hardest things. But that takes confidence on our part to continue to go, even when things are really good, right back into darkness. So I think that's a key point, that if you're listening to this and maybe you're new to the process. It's going to feel weird.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And I think that's our last word, y'. All. Thank y' all so much for helping us, for allowing us to be on your leading edge with you as you help us also push our leading edge so we can help clients push their leading edge so they can have success and vulnerability.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his website, ryanraynatraining.com youm can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website, dochawklpc.com.