15. Working Cross Culturally

Summary

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The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 15: Working Cross Culturally
Release Date: January 28, 2021
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rayner

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the challenges and growth opportunities therapists face when working cross-culturally, particularly through the lens of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Rayner discuss how therapists can deepen their fluency in addressing the complexities of identity, marginalization, and cultural difference in the therapy room. A strong emphasis is placed on humility, ongoing self-awareness, and intentional alliance-building for effective cross-cultural therapeutic practice.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Challenge and Privilege of Cross-Cultural Work

• Opening Question: How do therapists effectively join with clients from backgrounds very different from their own? (00:00)
• Motivation: There's widespread desire among therapists of all backgrounds to improve cross-cultural practice.
  • “To change a system, we have to work together. There has to be multiple people moving and seeing problems and doing this together.” – Dr. Rayner (01:08)

2. The Importance of Self-Awareness

• Village Mentality: Dr. Hawkins emphasizes the value of learning from a broad, diverse ‘village’ of therapists and mentors (02:22).
• Self as Instrument:
  • Therapists must assess what they are bringing into the room—including their identity, history, and biases.
  • Dr. Hawkins shares mentors’ advice on understanding presence:
    • “I want to be aware of what I bring to the room...how I see the world and how it impacts how I view other people...so it’s not leaking out onto my client in ways that...can become blocks in therapy.” (03:11)

3. Cultural Identity and Emotional Experience

• Analogy of Accents:

  • “It seems like other people are the ones that have an accent...The fact is, all of us have an accent. So I think recognizing your accent, recognizing where you’re coming from, is absolutely essential to being fluent.” – Dr. Rayner (05:51)

• Case Example:

  • When a client brought up racial trauma, her therapist’s inability to engage with this part led the client to stop sharing, showing the negative impact of therapist unawareness (06:11–07:51).
  • “We’re not really winning in therapy when our clients have to begin to make those choices.” – Dr. Hawkins (07:32)

4. Marginalization, Therapy, and Attachment

• Not Just Content: Marginalization and cultural identity are not just “content” or “blocks”—they are central to attachment and emotional strategies (08:20)
  • “This is not content. This is attachment. Important material.” – Dr. Rayner (08:51)

5. The Role of Training and Resources

• Historical Gaps:
  • Training often overlooks these cross-cultural dynamics, but current and upcoming resources (e.g., Paul Guillory's book) are addressing this gap (09:03).
• Personal Reflection:
  • Dr. Hawkins: “How has your ethnic identity impacted your experience and your expression of your own emotion?” (09:18)
• Discussion at Home:
  • Dr. Hawkins describes asking his wife about emotional norms in her Caribbean culture to highlight that, while cultural differences exist, some emotional rules are universal. (10:06)

6. White Therapists and Identity Privilege

• Frequency of Racial Self-Reflection:
  • “How often do you think about your own race? ... My answer is, I never think about it. ... The problem with that is just because it doesn’t register with me, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t register with others.” – Dr. Rayner (11:21)

7. Initiating Cross-Cultural Dialogue in Therapy

• Bringing It Up:
  • Therapists, especially from majority groups, should proactively raise cultural topics in assessment and throughout therapy, rather than waiting for clients to do so. (12:16–13:22)
  • “It’s important that we take the risk to initiate conversations and open up that space, suggesting that we’re comfortable with it. We want to know.” – Dr. Rayner (13:13)

8. Alliance, Pacing, and Earning Trust

• From Lisa Palmer Olson:
  • Start with general cultural assessment but focus on building trust before addressing deeper issues of cultural trauma (13:27–14:51).
  • “Letting my humanity connect with their humanity, proving to them that I’m worthy of their trust.... sometimes I need to earn a little bit more trust before I go for those deeper level questions.” – paraphrased from Lisa via Dr. Hawkins (13:39)

9. The Extra Labor of Marginalized Clients

• Measuring and Adapting:
  • Dr. Hawkins shares the ongoing effort he and others from marginalized backgrounds expend to measure how much of their identity they can safely show in different contexts (15:00–17:21).
  • “That takes a whole lot of energy to do that day in and day out... That’s extra energy that I don’t have to put out as a white male.” – Dr. Rayner acknowledging privilege (16:37)

10. Integrating, Not Isolating, Cultural Attunement

• Throughout the EFT Process:

  • Attunement to cultural identity is not a one-time assessment but a continuous process (18:08).
  • “Attunement and alliance are things that you...always check...with your clients.” – Dr. Rayner (18:36)

• Points for Inquiry:

  • In assessment
  • When emotional cycles take hold
  • During deep therapeutic work and repair (19:00–20:19)

11. Clinical Illustration: Validation vs. Coaching

• Validation:
  • Validating a client’s learned self-protective strategies (even if costly) is crucial, especially when these are rooted in cultural pain (20:19–23:10).
• Restoring Fluency:
  • “We don’t develop fluency until we’re responded to. So if life has taught me...that part of me is unacceptable...that part of me never gets responded to...now we’ve divided self again. What an opportunity we have to be with people in a way that helps them bring all of themselves back together.” – Dr. Rayner (23:10)

12. The Therapist's Responsibility: Intentional Curiosity and Alliance

• Active Exploration:
  • Therapists must be intentionally curious and willing to risk discomfort to create corrective emotional experiences for clients. (25:54–26:53)
  • Notable Story:
    • "There is no way in the world I thought you as a white therapist would get that. But it's good to hear that you do." – Client to George Fowler, as shared by Dr. Hawkins (26:30)

13. Integration without Stereotyping

• Attunement, Not Overcorrection:

  • Over-focusing or essentializing cultural identity is as problematic as ignoring it. Every client’s cultural experience is unique (28:47–29:52).

• Cultural Assessment Question:

  • "I'm just wondering how has your ethnic identity impacted your experience of your emotions and of the world? And how is that impacting the current relationship that we're coming in with today?" – Question developed with Dr. Kathryn Rehm (30:13)

14. Applicability to Other Marginalized Identities

• Beyond Race:
  • These principles apply to therapy with clients marginalized due to sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. (31:31)
  • “It’s heartbreaking...that someone’s experience of life is that some part of me is so awful, I can’t even have it in the room with you.” – Dr. Rayner (31:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Ryan Rayner (02:58): "You can’t change a system linearly. To change a system, we have to work together."
• Dr. James Hawkins (06:55): "We’re not really winning in therapy when our clients have to begin to make those choices [about what parts of self are safe to bring]."
• Dr. Ryan Rayner (08:51): "This is not content. This is attachment. Important material."
• Dr. James Hawkins (13:21): "As therapists, we set the tone of creating safety and for vulnerability to happen in the session."
• Dr. James Hawkins (16:20): "I measure my surroundings all the time...are they threatened by my body presence? ... That takes a whole lot of energy."
• Dr. Ryan Rayner (17:21): "It is a privilege of mine and people like me. ... I don’t ever have to factor my race in."
• Dr. James Hawkins (23:10): "Sometimes these are cultural adaptations that people make as a protection because they’re just not quite sure if I can let these parts of me be seen."
• Dr. Ryan Rayner (26:30): "[Client says:] 'There is no way in the world I thought you as a white therapist would get that. But it's good to hear that you do.'"
• Dr. James Hawkins (32:23): "No client has to take a part of themselves and put it into the closet...we want to invite their full humanity to be involved in the experience, because for EFT, it is an experiential change model."
• Dr. Ryan Rayner (32:59): "We go into the closet with them...so we change the room. No, it doesn’t have to be a closet anymore."

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Practical Application & Takeaways

• Regularly reflect: Examine how your own cultural background and identity affect your work.
• Proactively ask: Don’t wait for clients to raise issues of identity—invite discussion early and repeatedly, but pace based on trust-building.
• Validate and honor: Recognize culturally-learned strategies as adaptive and protectively motivated.
• Avoid assumptions: Don’t stereotype; let clients tell you what is salient for them.
• Integrate curiosity: Make cultural attunement a seamless, ongoing part of therapeutic work, not a special topic.

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Resources & Recommended Colleagues

• Dr. Paul Guillory: “Emotionally Focused Therapy with African American Couples” (Book, 2021, Routledge)
• Dr. Catherine McKay, Dr. Kathryn Rehm, Alana Katz, Lisa Palmer Olson, George Fowler, Joy & Dustin McGowan, Zamed Berhe, Fayon Villa: Mentioned as important voices and resources across diverse backgrounds (02:22, 13:27, 30:13, 33:18)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00: Opening question about joining across cultures
• 03:10: Importance of self-awareness as therapist
• 06:11: Case of cultural trauma missed in therapy
• 08:51: Marginalization as attachment, not "content"
• 13:21: Setting the tone for safety and vulnerability
• 15:00: "Measuring" – being vigilant about identity in the room
• 18:08: Integrating cultural attunement throughout therapy
• 23:10: Clinical examples of cultural adaptation
• 26:30: Impactful story about a client feeling seen by a white therapist
• 30:13: Key assessment question for cultural identity
• 32:23: The therapist's responsibility to invite "full humanity" into therapy

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This episode provides a heartfelt, practical, and nuanced discussion of cultural attunement in EFT and psychotherapy broadly, blending vulnerability, professional wisdom, and real-world applicability for listeners aiming to grow on their own leading edge of learning and healing.

Transcript

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

How do you join people who you may not understand, whose background and life experiences are maybe very different than yourself? We have a great opportunity today to access what is great motivation where therapists of all ethnicities want to get better at working cross culturally.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rayna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Welcome back. We're so glad to be back with you. Sorry for our delay. A lot going on in the world, but we're looking back to. Looking forward to getting back in a rhythm with you. We're broadcasting today from a snowy northwest Arkansas, which is fun for me, and we have a great topic. Working cross culturally, developing fluency, to working with people who may have different backgrounds than ourselves. I can't tell you how much of an honor it is for me to work with Dr. James Hawkins, our host here today. I literally think he's one of the best people in the world at this topic. Yeah. Little pressure. All right. And I'm not just saying that because James has a unique gift to. To talk about these hard topics in a way that is heartfelt and personal, but also not reactive, and in a way that really opens up space where more people can join the discussion and have a meaningful dialogue that can make a difference. You can't change a system linearly. To change a system, we have to work together. There has to be multiple people moving and seeing problems and doing this together. So just our topic comes from some questions we've gotten. So we'll just start with kind of a general one.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay, go ahead.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

You know, for a therapist from the majority culture, what are the most important points to working with people maybe from a marginalized system? And, you know, I know you've been doing a lot of great work with a lot of people on this, James, and so I'm just excited for you to join us here and share what you've been learning with our podcast.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And I just even I do want to give a shout out to some of those people that I've been able to work with because I really believe in the African proverb that it takes a village. You know, even just yesterday, I got to do a training with a great supervisor out of the Tampa area, Dr. Catherine McKay. If you're looking for an EFT supervisor to help you, I think she's great.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

She's excellent.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes, she is. And I definitely got to shout out my friend, Dr. Paul Gilleroy, who's a trainer in training and I think just recently named to the ISF board. Thankful for Paul. He actually has a book coming out here in May, and his book is called Emotionally Focused Therapy with African American Couples. And that'll be with the Rutledge Company.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So you want to. You want to learn from someone that as. As soon as he starts talking, you're like, whoa, wisdom. That's Paul. He's a fantastic resource.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Very much. I mean, he has an extensive history of work. So once again, I look forward to that book coming out in May 2021. Once again, that is Emotionally Focused Therapy with African American Couples by Dr. Paul Guillory. Him and there's so many others I think about my. My friend that's Jewish in New York, Alana Katz, a great trainer up there in the New York area. My friend, Dr. Catherine Ream. You, Ryan, too, George Fowler. And so what I'm saying all that is I'm naming out these people, and I don't name everyone's ethnicity or religious or just different backgrounds, but I'm learning in a village of people who are contributing. So, but back to that question. You're kind of saying, Dr. McKay, she said something that was interesting to me. We were doing a training for facilitators in an EFT externship. She's like, we have to be able to be aware of what we even bring into the room. So even for that, that, that therapist that maybe is white or from the majority group, and that could be even the majority, where maybe I might be in the room and there is another male in the room and then there's a female or whatever that could be, right? What is what I want to be aware of what I bring to the room and how, especially for the therapist, because we have such a responsibility and our presence in some ways already can be. Carry a greater weight in a way, because we're kind of setting the tone and the pace in the environment. So I want to know how what I bring into the room affects the dynamics. And so that's knowing about me what are some of the things and ways and how that shaped how I see the world and how it impacts how I view other people. I want to be very aware of that. So in some ways, it's not leaking out onto my client in ways that are. That can become blocks in therapy. So I even asked that therapist to say, you know, what are some key indicators about things that are important to you about how you identify yourself and how they impact how you show up with other clients. One of our mentors, George Fowler, I love what he said. In another externship we just had, George, he is about keeping focus in therapy and not letting kind of interruptions take over. And so George is okay with asking for permission to say, I'm sorry, I need to jump in here. Sorry for interrupting you. And you're good at that one too, Ryan. But George called. He said, you know, I recognize how that's different for me as a white male to do that than maybe for other clinicians, maybe for a female therapist, or for a client that maybe is from a minority ethnic group to show up. George is catching how his presence affects how he might show up in the room. And so that. I just thought that was great awareness on his part.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah, I like what you're saying. I think sometimes that doesn't get enough conversation because, you know, really identifying yourself and what you bring to the table can be missed. It's kind of like accents when you talk.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Right. The people that you are around, most of the time, you don't notice that they have an accent. Right. So it seems like other people are the ones that have an accent. The fact is, all of us have an accent. So I think recognizing your accent, recognizing where you're coming from, is. Is absolutely essential to being fluent, to work with people who might be different.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. Especially in this area, Ryan, because this is when I got to learn from my. One of my friends, and I really appreciate her vulnerability and authenticity. But she was talking about working with. With her therapist around some trauma issues from her past, and she. And she was like, my therapist is doing a great job. She's really doing a great job. But then when some things happen in society, it hit on another part of her in her own ethnic and cultural identity. And so because she had built this bond with her therapist, she's like, you know what? I need to bring this forward to her because she's helped me with this other piece of my trauma. I think she can really help me here. And she went to go bring it forward, and the therapist was not able to meet her there and blocked him. And that kind of sucks. Right. And so what my friend decided to do was she then said, you know what? To protect my other trauma work, I'll leave this part of me out of the therapeutic process. We're not really winning in therapy when our clients have to begin to make those choices. Now let me come over to the side of her therapist, though, to help her. Right. Because in your question, I don't think she's a bad person. What I think that might have happened to her, and it sucks for her, but it's part of what we're trying to heal in society. She might not have even recognized what she was bringing into the room. And so her client brought up something that confronted a part of her that she might not have explored yet. I don't know if when my client brought that up, did it bring up some stories from her family that she maybe felt bad about, some guilt and maybe actually her shutdown was an attempt to try and protect her client because it hurt her own heart and she didn't want to hurt her client more. Right. So it's all kinds of things, good reasons why that might have happened. It just sucks for how it landed for the client, though.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Right. I like that's a really rich discussion I'm sitting there sorting through. Have I made mistakes like that? Probably have. Probably have. Which I think is important. That's where we got to start. Right. None of us have this fluency. Perfect. I think it could be self with a therapist. In that case, I'm also thinking, is it possible that our training could make this happen?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

It could be that that therapist saw this as content or saw this as a block.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And you know, in previous episodes and future episodes, we're going to be talking about recognizing blocks, but it's important in this episode and in our practice to recognize this kind of conversation is not a block. When it comes to marginalization, racial issues, groupings where that have not been equal, that's not content. This is so closely tied to people's identity. It we know that it drastically affects people's attachment strategies, meaning if they're a pursuer or withdraw, the intensity at which they operate in those stances are directly impacted by cultural issues. So this is not content. This is attachment. Important material.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. And Ryan, I want to offer up, you know, I am a very hopeful person. And that's why I do think this moment in time, why I want to even mention Paul's book, is because you're right in training, even in a way, because of the effects of maybe systemic racism, things from the past, we in even our graduate level training have not had opportunity to learn these things and study these things together. And so now we have these people. And so I'm thankful for Paul who's done this work. He's a professional, an academian himself. Right. He's and now he's coming in and offering his voice and his peace. So now we're getting to learn how to all do this together. And so I just think that that's something that's so hopeful, in a way, to look at this too. Right? So part of. So even with that question, so how can. For a white therapist, one question I always say is, you know, I said it already. One is, how is your ethnic identity impacted your experience and your expression of your own emotion? And also, how does it impact how you interact with other people? Like, you know, that's even looking at your own life. Who are the people, like, maybe for you in your own life that have impacted your view of the world, how you learn to understand therapy. And so I encourage that person to get consultation. I do, though. You know, we do that here definitely within our own practice, in our own EFT community. Just talking about different cultural elements. You know, I go home sometimes, and I'm like, hey, I just did it the other night. I said, honey, help me understand. In your Caribbean culture, what did you learn about emotion? Or what were some spoken or unspoken rules that you learned within your cultural context about the expression of emotion? And what my wife shared was not very unique just to Caribbean culture. Actually, what I ended up finding out, oh, that's pretty normal to just humanity, where it's like she says, pretty much what I learned, not that this is true for everybody, was that we could express things like anger and frustration, but we didn't really do soft emotions. I'm like, oh, that's the issue in America, too, right? So that's something that I definitely. I learned. Did you have another question?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

No, I just. I really want to stay centered on your voice. You're the expert here. But I just. I'll make a quick comment. I have two other names I think are great. Dustin and Joy McGowan in our offices. Dustin is a Facebook friend of mine. You know, that means you really know each other when you're on Facebook now. He's a great voice in this conversation, too, locally. And he. He asked a question. I don't know exactly how he was saying it, but basically, how often do you think about your own race? I think my answer, this is maybe a year or two ago is. Is potentially a problem for us as white therapists. And my answer is, I never think about it. I don't identify myself as white per se. I don't defend whiteness. Like, I don't. That doesn't really register with me. The problem with that is just because it doesn't register with me, doesn't mean that it doesn't register with others. And if I don't pay attention to how I land, it can put me in a parallel. A paralyzed sort of neutralized state where I don't engage and don't recognize that I have a role here. And I think that's what's really, really key, is to pay attention to that 100%.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So since you're centering my voice, one thing I learned from my friend Paul is he talks about. So even as a white therapist or from the majority, is being able to recognize that this is something that you do need to bring up an assessment. Right. And what he means is just even at the beginning, asking some general questions, like, hey, I do want to know. Like, you know, we've done. We do things like family histories. We do attachment histories. Right. Hey, I'm just kind of curious here, and this might not be something that's big for you, but I do want to know maybe how much does your cultural location affect your presenting issue or, you know, how much do you want that to be a part of your therapeutic process? He didn't really give me that one. But that's something you and I have learned even from our own clients here in our. In our clinic, right?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah. And I've seen Paul in session, just sort of in. In midstream, you know, bring up the presenting problem and saying, as a person of color.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

How does this factor in?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Right. So it's important that we take the risk to initiate conversations and open up that space, suggesting that we're comfortable with it. We want to know.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

To not have the marginalization person have the responsibility to educate us 100%.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

As therapists, we always. We set the tone of creating safety and for. For vulnerability to happen in the session. Another one I learned from my friend and colleague out in California, Lisa Palmer Olson. And one of the things that Lisa said, and she is a white therapist, that's why I'm bringing it up, because she's doing her own work around this, too. And she said, james, one thing I'm learning, it's also about what's important is alliance and pacing. I said, all right, help me understand what you're saying, Lisa. She says, one, I do need to do the general cultural assessment in my initial assessment, but I might not always just be able to go for all of their racial trauma and pain right away. What I found is sometimes I need to work and get closer to them. So let my, like Letting my humanity connect with their humanity, proving to them that I'm worthy of their trust and that I'm comfortable with them. And then pace my way into that and then be willing to. Then, as I go on in therapy. Let me check in again. I know we talked about this at the beginning, but I'm kind of curious now. You know, this part that you are of Africanness in or. I saw her working with someone from the Caribbean. Right. How much you maybe, I don't know, maybe how in your experiences in your workplace have you had to lose parts of yourself in order to survive in the world? Right. And she's going for a deeper level question. It's like, I think I need to earn a little bit more trust sometimes before I go for those deeper level questions. So I like that idea, Lisa.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Nice. That's a conversation you and I had yesterday, privately. Yeah. This process of. And I don't know how you would say it, what word did you use? Measuring.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Measuring, yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

You want to share that?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I do want to talk about that, because I think that could. That could offer my vulnerability to help my fellow colleagues. So I was talking to Ryan, and I think I didn't realize how much I measure myself in the world. Not just measure myself, but I measure my surroundings all the time. And part of that is, and I would say as a black male, to see, because I know that I. That there are sometimes I'm in circles where I might like different music, different TV shows, I might have different expressions linguistically. Also, there's a part of me that I've. I don't know where I necessarily picked it up from Ryan, but I'm concerned about my size as a. As a male, I'm a little bit more broad in my build. Right. If y' all can't see Ryan, but I call him big comfort, and big does not mean he's little. But anyway, but. And so, But I measure is, are they threatened by my body presence? Are they intimidated by. Are they uncomfortable with me? And so I measure, like, how my voice, the proximity of my body to someone, how much of my kind of cultural world can I share with people? And I like what you said back to me, Ryan. If you don't want me talking about you like James, you know, in some ways there could be places where that's adaptable, and that's great and that's good, but I'm concerned about how much of you you lose in that process. And that takes a whole lot of energy to do that day in and day out. And I've heard you say it to me a couple times, even when I wasn't even thinking about it. I'm sorry, James, that you have to carry that. That's extra energy that I don't have to put out as a white male. And I'm like, wow, I wasn't thinking about it. Ryan, thank you.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Absolutely. And thank you for sharing that, James. I know it's personal. Two things. It does concern me for you and for anyone who's having that same journey. Because I think to measure and to have to constantly adapt in that way to who you're around means you have to start losing parts of yourself or at least not bringing them forward, which can be harmful to you. Also harmful to us. Because then the world doesn't get all of you.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And all the things that you bring to the table and the beauty and the talent that you have. So I think that's really key. So I appreciate you sharing that. It is a privilege of mine and people like me. We also measure to everyone does it a little. You said that. But I don't ever have to factor my race in.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And so just what I want the listeners to capture is, you know, James and I have been friends for I don't know how long years before you told me any of that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

All right, so let's think about that clinically now. So if James is my black client and he's coming in talking about, pick a topic, anxiety. If I don't know that he's measuring both in terms of how in his walk around world and in my office, man, I've missed a huge piece of helping you. So that's where we have to take an active and assertive stance to say I've really got to get into and understand what it's like to be him with his presenting problem, with the cycles around that, but also in his walk around world. I don't know if there's a better way to say that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. And I want to pull from that, Ryan. You just caught that, like it might not happen. It's not just you do it in the initial assessment. This is me learning from our friend Alana Katz. She is very adamant about this. It's not just a one time, one off thing. Just like we've said in our podcast, attunement and alliance are things that you. It's not just in, you know, it's not just step one of eft, it's all throughout EFT that you're always checking attunement and alliance with your clients. Right?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah, let's. Can we get practical for one moment with that and then you, you clean me up if I mess this up. I like what Alana's saying. This should be integrated.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

This would just be a part of how we train our ears to hear, to conceptualize and then it's attunement. Right. But it's an intentional attunement too. Because part of measuring is you, you maybe have trained yourself or maybe you've had to train yourself to survive other situations that were not safe, to not bring this dynamic up. That's right. Even though it is an absolutely central dynamic and tied to any presenting problem. So I think in the EFT there's some predictable times when it might be most helpful to be curious. One is in assessment, I think. Two, anytime the cycle starts to take over the session which happens, the pain comes online. There's a reasonable chance it's going to activate that part of you where you have a conscious choice. I'm going to fight my way out of this held down position or I'm going to placate this. Both of which are kind of the same thing in opposite ditches. You know, in step three, when we're doing deeper work the first time we're reaching down into those vulnerable places, that's a very likely time to activate this sort of place where you're. There's already some woundedness and already having to hide yourself. And then step five, six in stage two of eft, if you're familiar with our model, when you're really going into model of self and you're. And you're having to bring. Bring forth the sides of you that you don't like, which all of us have and ask for that need to be met. That is a big ask for anyone. It's even bigger of an ask for someone who life has taught them to hide themselves 100%.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So let me jump in on that part. I agree with everything you just said, by the way, Ryan. Those are key elements and I hope our listeners caught you just gave them a little bit of a. It's not perfect, but it's at least a map to say when should I really have a little bit more heightened awareness around this? Another one when I got to work with another. Some colleagues of ours, Katherine de Bruyne and Lisa Palmer Olson again who they're saying we're trying to really get better at this. So they let me do some consultation on a case for them. And what I recognized in their tape and I've seen in other sessions is I said, what you did, that we wouldn't see as a cultural piece. But when I was watching them work with this black male, he had learned to shut down his emotions to protect himself and go into an isolated world. And what Lisa did with it when he did that is she didn't shame him for his protection. She didn't try and coach him out of his protection. She really validated it. She validated his protection. Said, that makes so much sense to me. Of course, when this pain comes up for you, what you've learned to do is just try to turn it off and not turn to anyone and let it share. And you go into yourself and you try and find comfort for yourself there. And I said. She says, well, why? You know, kind of like, you know, help me understand, like, how that pertains culturally now. This is just me from my own understanding. For many, particularly thinking for some of the black friends and clients that I've worked with is for many black people, we've learned to measure as well. I remember working with this one black professional, very strong, competent woman. But she had learned to swallow her voice, to not upset, because her fear was, I'll upset my white constituents. They'll think I'm being too much. They'll think I'm being too angry, and they're just going to label me as a mad black woman. So I learned to swallow. Now, I could say, hey, you shouldn't do that. That's not good for you. All the research says that's just bad for your body. And all I did with her was, of course. Of course you do. And I'm so sorry. That even hits my body as you say that, that what you've learned to do, to survive, to try and protect other people around, to try and protect other people around you, not let things blow up on you, but it's also the thing that's hurting you right now. But that's what you feel like you end up having to do to try and kind of protect yourself. I'm so sorry for that. And then go in that your dilemma, right? But then when you do that and you shut down, you hold your voice, what happens to you? I feel like I'm going crazy. My body starts freaking out, and I have panic attacks. But then your other side is what. It's still scary, too, for me. James, that sucks. Can I just stay with you and work there? And so what? And then she went into. And she got really specific culturally once Again, like as a black woman. Right. And so what I want is like, understanding that sometimes these are cultural adaptations that people make as a protection because they're just not quite sure if I can let these parts of me be seen.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah. It's just so rich. We don't develop fluency until we're responded to. So if life has taught me or a marginalized person that part of me is unacceptable, I have to hide it, then that part of me never gets responded to. If that part of me never gets responded to, I never develop fluency with it. You see? So now we have. We've divided self again. So what an opportunity we have to be with people in a way that helps them bring all of themselves back together. You did. You did just give me an idea, though, for a future episode.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So I just made a decision. Yeah, like four or five episodes now we want to. I want to explore more of how marginalization affects pursuers and withdrawers differently. So we'll get. We'll come to that in a few. In a few weeks.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You said that on air. Now we're account.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I know, I know. That's why I did it. So keep listening.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I know we want to kind of wrap. Get ready to wrap this up. Me and Ryan are trying to keep these shorter, but this was rich. Thank you for this experience, Ryan. Even for me, if I just want to be vulnerable with you all. And I think this is important. This is just James being the optimist that wants the best for humanity. Even me as a black man, being able to sit in this room with my friend Ryan, who on the physical outside is a white male. Like, it feels like, man, the world could be a better place when we can have more of these types of conversations and share the parts of us and respond to the parts as we each share in these different places, you know, But I think the key elements that are sticking out for me in this podcast, Ryan, when we're talking about this is being able to maintain open curiosity about my own location in the world and how my location impacts others. But also I'm curious about. I can be because we wrote an article in the EFT newsletter about loaded attunement. If you want to read that in the eft melod with George Fowler and Charlie Simpson. But it can be scary to open up these parts for our clients. And so that could cut off our curiosity when all we see is a potential of a landmine blowing up and us hurting somebody, them getting mad at us. But we have to be able to be curious and explore our clients pain, how maybe their location in the world is impacting their presenting issue. Another key element is this is a significant part of building alliance. Alliance, really? I think to me, if I'm learning anything, alliance really matters when you're working across really almost any type of difference. I do catch myself wanting to make sure I'm a male therapist. Wanting my female clients to know that they can be safe with me. Because sometimes I've had. I'll say, so what is this like for you? Even as a female, I'm a male therapist, your husband's here. And they'll say something like, I was afraid that maybe you two had a line against me. All right, so what is it? You know, I want to help you feel safe in that. So I want to make sure I build an alliance with her just because of that difference. Her brain is already like, is he going to miss me?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And it can be so tempting for us to just ignore that and just try to be safe as opposed to go ahead and taking the risk to make it overt.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And that leads into my next point. All right, you've got to be intentional. Just what you said earlier, we can't just leave it up to chance and hope it happens. You may be the safest person in the world, but your client probably needs to hear you say it. George gave me a good example of the day. He said he was working with a client who was a black. Client was really in pain. And George just kind of conjectured. He said, I don't know what it's like to be a black male and to experience the world, but my gut just kind of tells me it's probably not always easy for you. And it's really hard. And you've probably learned some ways to protect yourself. And it's sometimes probably hard to bring your full self forward. And George said the client looked up to him, said, there is no way in the world. I thought you as a white therapist would get that. But it's good to hear that you do, George. It's almost like I can hear a lot of emotion in his voice when he shared that. Like, it just hit him. Right. So intentionality really matters as well too. You have to take the risk as.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

A therapist to notice what just happened in that interaction. George, responding to that part of his client, brought that client alive. I'm sorry, Brought that part of that client alive into the room and into that person's experience. That's an integration. That is a corrective experience right there. What it requires is of George and You modeled for this a moment ago. I have to want to know. I have to be willing to stay close with that uncomfortableness. I have to be willing to stay curious and. And open. And this is not easy, particularly when that's not necessarily what you're paying me for. You've given me goals, you've given me problems. There's pain. There's a cycle to track. There's all these other really important objectives to go for. It was just so easy to miss this. And what stinks about that is people are used to that. So we are actually doing what the cycle does again, to not comment on the parts of people who they've had to measure and had to hold back.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And so in another part, I want to bring in, and I got it. I want to keep. You know, I really appreciate Alana. She's really been pushing on this for years in EFT circles. And what she would say is, once again, I like the word you said here too, Ryan. It is integrated. It is a part of it. It's not something separate. It's not a one off. It's something that you do need to breach in the beginning, clearly, and always monitor throughout as well. So it is integrated into it.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah. Just real quickly, let's talk about the other side. We have. It's much more likely for us to make mistakes of not addressing it, not taking the risk, which you're right. I've had those great conversations with Alana as well. And that's her exact phrase. Take the risk. Therapists should take the risk, ask these uncomfortable questions. Eft. Do not ignore things, especially anything that affects attachment, which marginalization absolutely does. There is another side. Can you overdo this? What would that look like?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I'm glad you did that, Ryan. So me, Ryan, we talked one time. I remember it was like in the short period of time, I got two black female clients who came from other therapists, and they both had different stories. For one client, I'm like, hey, you switched out. Kind of help me understand, like, what. What brought you here to work with me. And in her story, it was, my therapist would never address the issue of race. It is very much pertinent to what I'm in for and what I'm. What I'm struggling with. And my therapist wouldn't breach it. Okay. So that client. So that for that therapist, they wouldn't go there. Then I had, a little while later, I had another black female come in and she was bringing in. It was a. It was a family case. And I said, hey, help me Understand what brought you in. You were working with another therapist. My therapist just all she focused on, she just kept saying, oh, I'm so sorry. I don't know what it's like to be a black. She just kept doing it, Kept doing it. She's like, I need you to help me and my family. Can you please help me and my family? And the therapist could never get attuned with what her other clinical part, which she was bringing in.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I think attunement's the right word. And I think we don't want to. The other ditch is I think we don't want to bring forth stereotypes. I want to be careful not to assume that Asian people are like this or black people are like this. In some ways, every family is their own culture. So I think that's back to that attunement alliance process.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And one little last practical thing I want to offer, and this is something I had wrote some cultural assessment questions, and we'll probably save that for another episode. But I do want to share the one that I sent a question in one of my EFT mentors, Kathryn Rehm, who's out of the Washington Baltimore Center. Her and I kind of collaborated and really revised the question. And now this is one of my main questions now. And the way she asked it is. And we both ask it now, but it's. So I'm just kind of curious here is. I'm just wondering how has your ethnic identity impacted your experience of your emotions and of the world? And how is that impacting the current relationship that we're coming in with today? If, particularly when she's talking about a married couple or something. I'm sorry, let me rephrase that last part. And she said, and how does it impact your relationship when you two talk about this? And particularly at that time, she was talking about an interracial couple. And how does this impact your relationship when the two of you talk about it? I was like, katherine, I love that question so much and how you revise parts of it. And she says, what do you mean? I loved how she just folded in emotion. She's folded in an attachment. And then she left it open for the client to then go into what you're saying. She didn't stereotype you tell you let me into your world about how it impacts your relationship. So that way she can get an assessment for the client versus her reading her own view onto it.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

It so, and certainly this applies to other forms of marginalization, sexual orientation, gender identity, anything non traditional. I mean, it's it's heartbreaking if you allow it to. To think about that someone's experience of life is that some part of me is so awful, I can't even have it in the room with you. Like, literally, they say, coming out of the closet like that, that's. That's a universal lingo around the world.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Well, let's think about how tragic that is that I literally have to hide myself, that I'm so awful I have to go to the closet. And so when we're working with people, you know, in that world, it's so crucial that we take the risk that they, that they, that they see that it affects us, that it matters to us, and we see the struggle. And when that happens, it's amazing how the work comes alive.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. And so I guess my closing statement on this is my hope for all of us as therapists as we listen to this, is that no client has to take a part of themselves in the therapy room when we're asking them to. We want to help them to be able to heal and to grow, that they have to take a part of them and put it into the closet because in some way, it will block the therapeutic process. So as much as in an attuned way, we want to invite their full humanity to be involved in the experience, because for eft, it is an experiential change model. And so we want to be able to invite their full humanity into that experience.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I like how the idea is evolving here. Right. I mean, what we're really saying is we go into the closet with them, to see them, to honor them, so that, you know, we change the room. No, it doesn't have to be a closet anymore. You know, when people are left alone, in pain that they don't do well. And so here's our opportunity to make a difference.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And it's been my honor to be a part of this podcast. And just, just thinking really quickly, I want to make sure that we're always doing right by people and making sure that we honor the voices that have helped us so, especially the. The voices that are people of color. So just real quickly, people that we talked about today, Zamed Berhe. I probably. I probably butchered her last name. I butchered my own. And Fayon Fion Villa's somewhere close there. They're out of San Diego. They're fantastic resources. Fantastic people. Catherine McKay out of Tampa, Florida. Paul Guillory out of San Francisco with his wonderful new book coming out. And Joy McGowan and Dustin McGowan. They're out of Fayetteville, Arkansas. Just run those names by you because they're, they're great resources. I know you can look them up. They would love to connect with you and be a part of of your journey.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his website ryanrenatraining.com youm can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website doc hawklpc.com.