← The Mel Robbins Podcast
The Mel Robbins Podcast
Harvard Business School Professor: This One Research Study Will Change Your Life and Career
01:05:45
Loading summary
Transcript281 lines
- [00:00]
Mel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Let me ask you a question. How many times today did you stop yourself from saying something? I get it. Maybe it felt awkward or unnecessary or that if you said something, it might make things weird. So instead you were like, I'm fine. You kept it light, you swallowed the comment, you hid the truth, and you let it go. You probably told yourself, oh, that's maturity. That's emotional intelligence. That's having solid boundaries, not saying anything. But what if you're just terrified of oversharing. You obsess over saying too much. You replay conversations because you're worried that you said the wrong thing or you crossed a line or people are gonna judge you. Most of us think the danger is in oversharing, you know, saying too much, crossing a line, being too vulnerable. But today's guest, a Harvard Business School professor who's a behavioral scientist and studies decision making, says that's the wrong fear. What you should be afraid of is the real damage that comes from under sharing. Being closed off, not opening up about what's going on in your life. This episode is not about sharing everything with everyone. This episode is about the skill of being open, being vulnerable, and learning how to be honest about what's going on. Because if you really apply what you're about to learn today, your relationships will be closer, your conversations are going to get easier, you'll feel happier because of these tips from the number one professor at Harvard Business School
- [01:51]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
considering a college degree but haven't started yet. Remember, this confidence is the willingness to try. And Southern New Hampshire University can help. They have over 200 online programs so you can study where it's convenient. And there are no set class times so you can study when it's convenient too. It's truly a college that lets you balance learning with your busy Life. Visit SNHU.edu Mel to explore everything Southern New Hampshire University has to offer. The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner. You know when someone finishes your sentence because they already understood what you needed.
- [02:37]
Mel Robbins
That's what working with Amica feels like.
- [02:39]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
They don't guess. They don't assume. They take the time to understand what you're trying to protect and why it matters.
- [02:45]
Mel Robbins
Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first.
- [02:49]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Amica really does it. You feel it in the way they
- [02:52]
Mel Robbins
listen, the way they follow through, the
- [02:54]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
way they treat you. As a customer owned company, Amica puts your needs first.
- [02:58]
Mel Robbins
Visit amica.com and get a quote today before we Jump in.
- [03:04]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
I want to invite you to stick around for a special segment later in
- [03:08]
Mel Robbins
the episode sponsored by Expedia, because I'm
- [03:11]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
going to be sharing something that might
- [03:13]
Mel Robbins
make you a happier person starting today. Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared episode with
- [03:35]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
you, I just wanted to take a
- [03:37]
Mel Robbins
moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Today we're talking about research that will change your life and your career. From the number one professor on decision making at Harvard Business School, today's guest is a leading authority on how people decide what to reveal, what to withhold, and how those decisions shape trust, relationships, success and happiness. I'm talking about Dr. Leslie K. John. She is a Harvard Business School professor, the James E. Burke professor of Business Administration, and a behavioral scientist who has spent decades studying honesty, self disclosure, trust, privacy, regret and decision making. Her research has been published in the most respected scientific journals in the world and she is the author of the best selling book, Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing, which completely changed how I think about silence, vulnerability, and the things we don't say. So without further ado, please help me welcome Dr. Leslie John to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- [04:44]
Dr. Leslie John
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
- [04:46]
Mel Robbins
I am so excited to dig into everything that you're about to teach us. Your research and where I wanna start is how selfishly, how could my life be different if I take to heart everything that you are teaching at Harvard Business School. The lessons, the takeaway, the research, and I really apply it to my life. How is my life gonna change?
- [05:11]
Dr. Leslie John
So number one is the realization that revealing wisely is a skill. It's not something we're born good or bad at. It is a skill. And you can do some really practical things, which we're gonna talk about, to do it really wisely. And if you do it wisely, it's going to transform your relationships, it's going to change how you show up at work, it's going to help you thrive at work, it's going to make you more influential and it's even going to shape and improve your wellbeing, your day
- [05:40]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
to day happiness, just by being more open.
- [05:42]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes, you're going to notice that your eq, your emotional intelligence is going to increase. You're going to have much better self awareness and understanding and you'll have a much better understanding of others as a result, you'll be much better able to like identify and process your emotions. You will feel therefore less stress, you will ruminate less. You will, you know that, that, that post conversational replay that gut wrenching, oh my God, what did I do? That's going to dial way down. Because part of opening up is saying hard things. You're going to learn to be more assertive, which will help you with boundaries beyond and you'll feel more. It's not just the absence of negative stuff or the mitigating of it. You're going to feel more joy, you're going to be happier. I sure am. And if this curmudgeonly academic that way you'll also find benefits in your workplace, in your career. So it's interesting because the tools there are kind of counterintuitive, the things that you do to say gain more influence. So I'm excited to talk about that. So let's go.
- [06:47]
Mel Robbins
You know, Dr. John, I'm sitting here thinking, if you're standing before a class at Harvard Business School, you gotta have a bunch of really type A people in there who want to go into I banking or be the next billionaire or build something meaningful, hard working, hard driving, they end up in front of you and you're like, hey, let's talk about the power of oversharing.
- [07:09]
Dr. Leslie John
I know.
- [07:10]
Mel Robbins
How do you sell the benefit of being more open and what you call over sharing to somebody who is just in your class to get ahead? What is the real benefit of that?
- [07:23]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes, great question. The way I start is by speaking their language. So I teach a lot of executives and some of them, rightly so, well, I'm a skeptical person. They're like, what is this? And especially sometimes when it comes to like feelings and emotions, what is this? And so what I do is I start by showing them in business contexts how this, first of all, this is crass. Maybe I am a business school professor, how it helps them make money. And then I share.
- [07:51]
Mel Robbins
Wait, so if you share more, you make more money.
- [07:53]
Dr. Leslie John
So the example I give there, I know what as a company, so when we share more, when we open up, when we reveal slightly sensitive things, it causes whoever we're revealing to, to trust us more. And the same is true in companies. When companies reveal more, it causes their trust. And I don't use the word cause lightly. Right. These are randomized experiments. It causes their customers to trust them more and to buy more. So we've done studies with like the largest bank in Australia for example, where with my colleague Ryan Buell, where somehow we convinced them to on their credit card website. So when you're going and looking for a credit card on their, their bank, Commonwealth bank of Australia, what we convinced them to do is half of the time to reveal reasons why you might not want the credit card. So, like, pay attention. The fees are really high or the points aren't great or whatever. The high interest rate, like drawing attention, basically saying, don't buy this. But that's a form of sensitive disclosure. Right, and what did that do? It actually, it did not scare people away. It didn't decrease customer acquisition, and it increased retention. The experiment alone made the bank millions of dollars. And then they rolled it out and then their competitors copied them. So that's kind of. I start in the like, money realm and then they're like, oh, okay. And then I go into leadership and there I go into how when you're a leader revealing a little bit more than you think you should. And I take them through, I first get them to craft a little self introduction. I say, imagine you're about to introduce yourself to a group of new hires. What would you say about yourself? And. And I say, raise your hand if you had any negative traits in that. Crickets. And then I said, we did a study with actual managers where we randomize them to either do what you did and not share weaknesses, or some of them planted, put a few weaknesses in. And then we asked the employees who they want to work for. They want to work for the person that has the weaknesses. They don't think the employer is incompetent. They just trust them more and they want to work for them.
- [10:00]
Mel Robbins
Well, I find this so fascinating because you hear the word oversharing and you think about those moments where something fell out of your mouth and then you reg completely. And the research that you've been doing is so groundbreaking. What actually led you to go, oh, wait a minute. Oversharing and revealing things that you may be hiding or maybe scared to say really matters. Like, what was that moment? You're like, I'm looking at this wrong.
- [10:34]
Dr. Leslie John
For me, the study that changed everything was a simple thought experiment I ran where we could actually ask listeners to think through this little thought experiment. So imagine you are deciding between two possible dates, two possible suitors, and you talk to one of them and you ask them, have you ever had any sexually transmitted diseases? STDs. Now I know that that's, that's kind of forward. Okay, that's a Harvard Business School professor says, no yes, that's super forward. Obviously. Obviously, we're not going to open with that one. I'm boiling it down to you because you're busy people. So, okay, so you ask the person this and they say, actually, yeah, I've had a lot of STDs. Okay, so then you ask the other person, same question, and they say, I don't want to answer that question. I'm not answering it. Refuse to answer. And so we asked, we put thousands of people in this quandary. Now, neither of these is exactly, as my father would say, a fine specimen. So you push come to shove, you want someone who's more responsible or who answers your questions. But if you had to choose, if you had to choose, who would you pick? And again and again, we found people prefer the revealer, the person who says the thing, even if it's a terrible thing, relative to someone who hides, who saliently withholds. We've found this in dating context. So here it's about 65% of people, so not 100% of you, but the majority, the significant majority, prefer this devil they know. In other studies we found, like in another study, we asked people who they'd rather hire. Would you rather hire someone who on the job application answered the question, what are your worst grades? And admitted that they'd failed versus the someone who opted out? Something like 89% of people choose the person who admits to the bad thing. And this just was like astounding to us. So we did more studies, and what we realized was that the reason that people really didn't want to go for the hider was because they distrusted them. Because at least the person who revealed, at least they revealed, and they're trustworthy. And now why does. Then the question is every question you answer in research, this is why I love my job, is another question, another layer. Well, why is that person trustworthy? And what we found was that when you think about it, revealing something sensitive to someone is showing that you trust the person. Because I'm saying the thing and I'm like relinquishing control to the universe. And I'm implicitly saying, I trust you to not make a fool out of me, right? So I'm showing. And when we feel that someone trusts us, it causes us to trust them in return. And why is that important? Because it is the foundation of human relationships, right? We are herd creatures. We cannot survive without strong relationships. And so when someone abstains saliently from this activity of revealing, when they say, I'm not, I'M opting out of answering. We treat them with contempt. So much so that we would rather hire someone, date someone who admits to pretty bad things relative to someone who simply abstains. And you could think about it like there's lots of reasons why the non responder. It could be a principled non response.
- [13:42]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Right.
- [13:42]
Dr. Leslie John
They could be saying, this is an insensitive. This is not the right question. I object. Right.
- [13:46]
Mel Robbins
Well, when you said imagine, just imagine you have two people you're trying to decide you're gonna go on a date with. You ask them, do you have any history with STDs?
- [13:55]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [13:56]
Mel Robbins
The second that you told me that the second person was like, I refuse to answer that. I'm like, well that's cause you have an std. I'm going with the person that is willing to reveal that because you're right. I feel like, I mean it's so obvious now that you explain it, Professor. But I think when you're in the situation, the instinct is to hide the information completely. To put up a perfect front and to not reveal things that you believe people will judge you for.
- [14:26]
Dr. Leslie John
And in fact, we didn't other experiments where we put people in that position. We said, okay, you have like imagine you have. We didn't make people imagine they had lots of STDs. We got them to imagine that they had failed an exam or something and you're getting on a job application. And we like incented them to incentive compatible and we really wanted them to be honest. And we said, would you reveal this or would you choose not to answer? Almost everyone thinks the wise move there is to choose not to answer and it's wrong, right?
- [14:54]
Mel Robbins
Yes.
- [14:54]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [14:54]
Mel Robbins
Well, I don't know if it's the lawyer in me, but now what you're saying is that based on the research, it's actually human nature that when somebody avoids answering something or you even pick up on a smidge of. I don't think I'm getting the full story here. You will not trust that person. And so by not revealing.
- [15:13]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
And you know what's crazy about this?
- [15:15]
Mel Robbins
If you really stop as you're listening to Dr. John and you're imagining these questions and somebody's like, well, I'm not comfortable answering that, you immediately go liar.
- [15:25]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [15:26]
Mel Robbins
You immediately believe and assume that the person is not telling you the truth. But here's what's crazy. The person is saying that cause they literally don't want you to judge them, but by saying it, you're not. It's crazy.
- [15:43]
Dr. Leslie John
It's so ironic. It's so ironic. And in the law, like, I always think the. The law how? Like, you're not supposed to. You would know better than I'm butchering how to say it. But where you plead fifth Amendment or whatever, you're not supposed to make any inference from that. It's impossible. It's an automatic inference that we make.
- [16:01]
Mel Robbins
Yes, it's so true. So you mentioned that you're doing all this research, and all of a sudden the research reveals to you that, wow, not sharing the truth makes you less trustworthy.
- [16:14]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes. There's two other. I won't say no, I want to hear the answer. But there's two other things that were. Blow my mind moment.
- [16:20]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, it's true.
- [16:21]
Dr. Leslie John
So the next was a study, hard, scientific study. I making fun of myself because I love doing fun, but I think deeply revealing experiments with people where I put them in these awkward situations. This was by a neuroscientist, so like a hardcore scientist. And what they did was they put people in brain scanners to look at what areas of their brain were activated. And half of the people, they asked them personal questions, so they asked them to reveal. The other half were asked different questions that didn't give them the opportunity to reveal. And what they found was that the people who got to reveal the pleasure centers of their brain were activated if
- [17:00]
Mel Robbins
they told the truth.
- [17:01]
Dr. Leslie John
Well, they didn't even tell, like, they. The questions were not necessarily places where you would lie. They were like, what's your favorite ice cream flavor? What do you like? They were just anything about yourself, not particularly sensitive, but talking about yourself, revealing about yourself. The pleasure centers of the brain activated relative to when you weren't talking about yourself. And that to me was like, wow, this is like, these are the really old brain structures. And if there's something really deeply, intrinsically rewarding, there's something really important going on here that we need to pay attention to.
- [17:32]
Mel Robbins
And just to make sure that I kind of got the power of that insight and that as you're listening or watching, you really pulled out from our esteemed professor. What that tells you, if I'm hearing you correctly, is that you are hardwired to feel good about yourself when you reveal things about you that are true completely, that it's part of the design. And I would imagine that if you suppress that, that it has a negative backfiring effect too, since you're wired for this.
- [18:09]
Dr. Leslie John
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [18:11]
Mel Robbins
Wow.
- [18:11]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah. There is a third study which I could talk about that, like, rocked me.
- [18:15]
Mel Robbins
Yeah. What's the third study that rocked you.
- [18:17]
Dr. Leslie John
So the third study that rocked me, I encountered this oldie but goodie or baddie study, depending on how you view the conclusions about what they did in this study was they videotaped preschoolers as they were watching a kind of scary movie. And so they, they were videotaping them to see how much they expressed on their faces, how much seeped out, how much did they show on their faces of their feelings. They also measured how sweaty their palms are. So this is the galvanic skin response, which measures sweat on your fingers. You know how when you get. You get nervous, you get sweaty, sweaty fingers. And so that's physiological stress, kind of like objective stress, if you were to think about it that way. And what they found was that the children who let more out on their faces, they were physiologically calmer.
- [19:03]
Mel Robbins
Meaning their fingers weren't. Correct.
- [19:05]
Dr. Leslie John
Correct.
- [19:06]
Mel Robbins
So through their facial expression and reacting and revealing.
- [19:10]
Dr. Leslie John
Right.
- [19:11]
Mel Robbins
You were processing the stressful feelings you had.
- [19:13]
Dr. Leslie John
Exactly, exactly. Now that's the awesome. Like, that's total revelation. Right now. I am a mom of a three year old. My bunny is a three year old and a five year old. And when I read this, you know, they were similar ages and to what they are now, obviously. And the kicker though is that the study found that once the children reached kindergarten age, there had been. There was a gender difference such that the boys were now holding it in. So whereas when they were preschoolers, they were kind of all expressing it. But over time, the boys had learned, and I'm using air quotes if you're listening, they had been like culturally conditioned to be stoic. And like, boys don't show. Right. Is these, these toxic norms we have. And so as a boy mom, I'm, you know, a couple months ago I saw my. My little three and a half year old being stoic. That face, you know, the stoic face. And I just broke my heart. And it's Tyler. Like, it's okay. I may be overcompensating, but. But that really, really shook me.
- [20:17]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Yeah.
- [20:19]
Mel Robbins
Well, it's interesting because I'm thinking right now about somebody in my life who recently told me this story about how when he was really, really little, they had a death in the family. And at the funeral, he started to get very, very upset. And, you know, when someone in the family put a hand on this little boy's shoulder and said, you gotta be strong for mom. And that became strong for mom became the mantra in this person's mind that has really defined the way in which they've expressed emotion or not expressed emotion or believe that they needed to be stoic. And in the context of your research, I would imagine you would say that the being open and the sharing of emotion is really the opportunity to break the hold that strong for mom completely has on you.
- [21:24]
Dr. Leslie John
Completely. Completely.
- [21:26]
Mel Robbins
So what is the life of an under sharer look like?
- [21:31]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes, I would say the life of an undersharer is a life of missed opportunities. It's a life of friendships that never blossom. It's a life of colleagues that never quite trust you. It's a life of romances that don't spark or don't deepen. I know.
- [21:52]
Mel Robbins
It's so sad.
- [21:53]
Dr. Leslie John
It is.
- [21:55]
Mel Robbins
And how do you know if you're an under sharer versus somebody who is just very much like, shy or introverted or just a little bit more of an observer? What's the difference? Or is there a difference?
- [22:09]
Dr. Leslie John
I love that question. Because being talkative is not the same thing as being revealey or revealing wisely, for that matter.
- [22:18]
Mel Robbins
Let me just pause you there.
- [22:19]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [22:21]
Mel Robbins
Because is that aimed at me?
- [22:23]
Dr. Leslie John
No, no, no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
- [22:26]
Mel Robbins
That was a joke. I like the joke.
- [22:28]
Dr. Leslie John
I love it.
- [22:28]
Mel Robbins
It's the important thing that those of us that may be a little bit more talkative doesn't necessarily mean you're actually practicing the skill and art of sharing completely.
- [22:38]
Sponsor Voice 2
Completely.
- [22:40]
Dr. Leslie John
So I'm pretty introverted, but I'm pretty forthcoming. And one of my very best friends is extremely extroverted. And she herself struggles to open up. In fact, she said that she really, really struggles with vulnerability. And at first I've said this to her face. At first I thought that that was just like an elaborate, humble brag. I can't be vulnerable. But I've seen firsthand that she struggles and has. Has solidified to me what I call the extroversion illusion, which is that we tend to think equate talkativeness with going deep and opening up. They're really not at all the same thing. So we love extroverts because they're gregarious, they're talkative, they're. They have a really positive affect. Right. They're often in a good mood. But when it comes to revealing the really deep stuff, think about the extroverts in your life. They're probably no different than the introverts in terms of how much they reveal or don't. Right. So revealing is really a different thing than talking.
- [23:41]
Mel Robbins
I love that distinction. Because when you bring in the word open, how open are you how much do you actually share versus the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [23:51]
Dr. Leslie John
And I would say that the people that are the best revealers, the best sharers, are the ones that are the most flexible. They have the most disclosure flexibility. So they have a wide range. They go from extreme openness with their most trusted confidants to extreme guardedness when the situation calls for. Right. So they're really nimble at moving between these extremes.
- [24:14]
Mel Robbins
That's an important distinction because when you first kind of dive into your work, you might think, oh, okay, I just gotta be super vulnerable. A completely open book. I gotta. Blah, blah, blah. And it's both extremes. It's knowing when to be open and when to be guarded.
- [24:31]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Right.
- [24:32]
Mel Robbins
So how do you know the difference between being the kind of person that tends to just be shy or introverted versus being somebody who's closed and is under sharing and connecting with people?
- [24:48]
Dr. Leslie John
That's a great question. I think that you need to look to yourself first and do a kind of audit of. I think a place where this shows up very saliently is in one's relationships, right? Like your spouse, your relationship with your spouse. Do you. How much do you share with them? Do you really feel like they know you? Do you feel like you know them? How much are you talking about your feelings versus logistics? You do kind of an audit like that.
- [25:14]
Mel Robbins
What are some of the things that you would notice if you start to think? And I'll just like, share this in case it's helpful as you're listening or watching us. So I would say, God, we've married 30.
- [25:28]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
About 34 or five years ago, Chris
- [25:31]
Mel Robbins
and I started seeing a therapist. And one of the most shocking things is somebody who's very talkative. And I'm married to somebody who is way more introverted and up in his head and a thinker. And it was extraordinarily fascinating to see that we, even though we were side by side, lots of logistics, doing life together, having fun in terms of our experiences of life and in terms of our connection in our marriage. Our therapist uses this term. You2 are two people that stand next to each other, but you're sequestered in your own experiences.
- [26:18]
Dr. Leslie John
Geez.
- [26:19]
Mel Robbins
And what was really unbelievable about it is that learning how to be more open with one another, which is different than just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about your day, is a skill completely. And I feel like in the last four years, learning how to be more open with Chris and having him also lean in to learning how to reveal and even talk about the Things that he's thinking about or feeling or whatever has brought us so much closer because. And then I think about the last 26 years and we've had completely different experiences in our minds and bodies because we weren't really connecting over it. We were just doing life together, if that makes sense. Mel.
- [27:03]
Dr. Leslie John
I think we're like living in a parallel universe because I have had the exact same experience with my own. We have a marriage therapist. He's amazing. You know, I started realizing I'm making all these assumptions about and these tiffs we get into. It's because we're not actually communicating how we feel. And so there's so many things that, that like opening this box of like what your spouse is thinking and feeling is just so, so helpful for marriage and staying together. And it prevents these stupid tips because it's never about the, you know, the dishes in the dishwasher or whatever. Right?
- [27:40]
Mel Robbins
Dr. John, I love everything that you're sharing with us today. I know as you're listening, you can relate. You're probably thinking about somebody or yourself. You might be thinking about your partner, a friend, a coworker, even maybe one of your kids who really deserves to get all of this information and these life changing takeaways from Dr. John. So while you have that person in mind, I want you to send them this episode. And we're gonna take a quick break to let our incredible sponsors shine and share a few words. But stay with me because this conversation is only getting more powerful because Dr. John has so much more to share with you and me. Stay with me.
- [28:24]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
When it comes to your health and wellness, trust matters. Whether you're working toward fitness goals, building a wellness routine, or just stocking up on everyday essentials for your family, where you shop really matters.
- [28:37]
Mel Robbins
And that's why I want to tell
- [28:38]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
you about our new sponsor, iHerb. It's your one stop shop for vitamins, supplements, sports nutrition, personal care and even grocery, baby and pet products. For nearly 30 years, Iherb has delivered wellness products sourced directly from trusted brands to more than 15 million customers around the world. And here's what sets them apart. There are no third party sellers on Iherb's website or app. So you can shop confidently knowing that for supplements and sports nutrition products, brands provide certificates of analysis and select products are independently verified through the eye tested lab program too. And if something doesn't meet your expectations, IHERB makes it right with easy returns and simple refunds. Visit iherb.com Mel and use code MEL20 for 20% off your order. That's iherb.com Mel with code MEL20 sometimes the hardest part is starting something new is starting, especially when it comes to exercise. That first step out the front door. Oh, that's a big one.
- [29:42]
Mel Robbins
So it helps when you're wearing shoes
- [29:44]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
that make it feel easier. That's why I want to tell you about our sponsor, Ultra. Their shoes are designed to make your first step and every step more comfortable. The secret is in the Ultra fit, which has more room for your toes and you get comfort, balance and strength all in one. So you can move more naturally as you run, walk or train. Whether you're just getting started or already logging serious miles, Altra shoes are designed to move with you stride after stride. Shop now@ultrarunning.com and use code MEL10 for 10% off at checkout. And if you want even more savings and you've got an HSA or FSA account, you can use those pre tax dollars on Altra shoes through Trumed. Just head to truemed.com ultra to check your eligibility and it may save you an average of 30%. TRUMED is for qualified customers. HSA, FSA, tax, savings vary, experience Ultra and stay out there@ultrarunning.com that's a L T R a running.com. you know that thing that you keep saying you want to get better at and you just never start? For me, it's all about cooking, especially modern Middle Eastern cooking. I've thought about it and just never did anything about learning how to do it. So I finally went to Masterclass and found a class taught by someone who's one of the best in the world. And that's what makes Masterclass my top choice in learning new skills. Because you're learning directly from people who've mastered their craft. It also fits into real life. The lessons are short. There's an audio mode and you can watch on your phone or tv, so you can stick with it.
- [31:26]
Mel Robbins
One thing that really stuck with me
- [31:27]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
is how to use herbs and spices to make my Middle Eastern dishes or any dish more pulled together and taste delicious. That is a master chef move that impresses everybody every time. Masterclass keeps adding new classes, so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com Melrobbins that's 15% off masterclass.com Melrobbins head to masterclass.com MelrobbINS to see the latest offer.
- [32:09]
Mel Robbins
Welcome Back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today we are talking about the idea that you're not oversharing. You're saying too little. You're learning about the skill of openness and vulnerability and how to have more courage in your life and the benefits of doing so with Harvard business school professor, Dr. Leslie John. All right, so, Dr. John, let's just jump right back into it. You know, you also, in your work, you talk about disclosure decisions. Can you explain to the person listening and to me.
- [32:43]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [32:43]
Mel Robbins
What is a disclosure decision?
- [32:46]
Dr. Leslie John
I love that. So a disclosure decision is simply a decision of whether to reveal something or to not reveal something. So many of our disclosure decisions ride under the surface. We don't even realize we are making these decisions so often. We just kind of default to silence. We don't even consider the possibility of opening up. And so what I'd like to do is I'd like to do a little demo here. Great. To help us understand this a little bit. A day in the life of disclosure decisions.
- [33:15]
Mel Robbins
Okay, so you're gonna walk us through the average day and you're gonna point out all of these subconscious moments where something is happening in your interpersonal life and you just decide not to say anything.
- [33:30]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [33:30]
Mel Robbins
Oh, I have a feeling this is gonna be painful. Okay.
- [33:33]
Dr. Leslie John
It's just gonna be an average, boring day. But that's the point, right?
- [33:36]
Mel Robbins
Okay. Average boring day. And Dr. John is reaching down and she is pulling up. There's a basket, and there are yellow ping pong ball things, like little wiffle ball things that she has in the basket. There's one right there. Okay. You hear it? And why don't you walk us through what's about to happen? And there's a big Mason jar.
- [33:54]
Dr. Leslie John
Okay. So I'm going to walk us through the day in a life of disclosure decisions. And what my purpose here is. I want to make visible something that is typically invisible in our lives, and that is the sheer number of disclosure decisions we actually make unknowingly.
- [34:14]
Mel Robbins
And this is also helping us really consider, are you open and are you revealing what's happening, or are you staying closed and you're under sharing what's happening in your life?
- [34:27]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes. Yes.
- [34:28]
Mel Robbins
Okay.
- [34:28]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [34:29]
Mel Robbins
Okay. And you know, as you're listening, you will be able to hear the impact of this. But as you're watching on YouTube, you're gonna see this, right?
- [34:39]
Dr. Leslie John
So I have this Mason jar here. What this Mason jar represents is it represents the things that you thought but did not say. In fact, you didn't even consider saying. Them, frankly. So, okay, and these are gonna be your thoughts.
- [34:55]
Mel Robbins
Each one of these little balls are.
- [34:56]
Dr. Leslie John
Each one of these balls is your thoughts. The Unsaid. Okay, so you wake up in the morning, you roll over in bed, you hug your spouse, you say, I love you. And then you think to yourself, I feel so crappy. I had the worst sleep. So you can hear. That's your first thought feeling that you have suppressed. Really. You haven't thought of it as suppression, but we're trying to bring awareness to this. And then you think, geez, I am going to be really. It's going to be hard to regulate my emotions today because when I'm sleep deprived, that's really hard. Next one in the ball, in the jar. Then you go over to the bathroom. You're standing beside your spouse. You're starting to brush your teeth. You look at yourself in the mirror and you think, I look fine, but I don't love the way I look. You think, you know, I really thought I would feel younger at this age. I feel older than I thought I would. Then you both go down to the kitchen. Your kids are frolicking and scampering about, and your husband or your spouse starts making their lunch for the day. And the spouse says to you, hey, what do you think they want? What do you think they want for snack? And you say, just give him something. Stop. Just. You pick. Spouse says, whoa. And you think, oh, my gosh, I'm just so exhausted. I just need a little bit more leeway today because I'm so tired and I really just need a hug. And I've got this big presentation coming up, and I'm so overwhelmed. You don't say any of these things. Instead, you're now in a fight with your husband because your husband's like, what? Or your spouse, what? I'm doing something nice. You get in the car, you start driving to work. Your father calls you. You think, oh, geez. What? What's my father doing? Because you realize that he's driving. My father is driving. My father shouldn't be behind the wheel. You're like, should he be behind the wheel? I don't think his eyesight is good enough. I don't think he should be behind the wheel. But instead you just say, hey, dad, let's have. Let's, let's, let's talk later. When you're not driving, you get to work. Your assistant says, how you doing? You say, great. What you don't say is, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I've got a big presentation today. You get into your office. I could go on and on, right? You get into your office and your work bestie comes in. They say how you do, what's up? What's on tap today? You say, I got a big meeting, big presentation. I'm super excited. What you don't say is, I'm feeling anxious. Maybe we could go through the beginning together. That might help me. And on and on. And I'm already full here and it's only 9:30 exactly like you can think of. Then later in the day your boss comes, says, congrats, great job on the presentation. And you say, thanks. But what you could have said is, you have no idea what that means to me. I was super anxious and I crushed it. And I'm so proud of myself. And maybe you could give me more opportunities to speak because I love it so much. And then it's like career advancement, Right? So the point here is not to. I'm not saying we should say all of these things out loud. That would be chaos. There's lots of good reasons why we withhold. We're being kind. We don't have the time to get to it. Or being strategic. You know, our assistant asks us how we're doing. We don't want to bog them down. We want a quick, easy, breezy. But our work bestie, like, we can't tell them we're feeling a little anxious. They could give you a hug. They could say, oh, I've been feeling the same way. They could say so many things, almost anything they say will be helpful.
- [38:16]
Mel Robbins
You know what's really powerful about this example, Whether you're just hearing the pun or you're watching all of these unsaid things pile up, is you feel how weighed down you are. And what I would love to hear is what is the implication in terms of your energy or your mood or your own health, your happiness from constantly withholding and under sharing.
- [38:55]
Dr. Leslie John
Right. So there is a lot that we know about under sharing, withholding. It's really bad for our mental and physical health. So for example, when we keep secrets, we tend to ruminate about them. And that decreases mental focus. It literally lowers your IQ one tests when you're holding secrets. It also is associated with decreased well being. Like people who hold secrets, they have lower objective measures of physical health. So there's all kinds of health issues. And I'm just getting at the like physical, mental health. I'm not even getting at the missed opportunities of what your relationship could be and the problems you're causing by not opening up Right.
- [39:44]
Mel Robbins
Well, if we just take the example, like the missed opportunities and what you just said is connection with the person first thing or said, I had a scary dream. Oh my God. I'm getting really like. So you're missing connection, reassurance.
- [39:56]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [39:57]
Mel Robbins
When you look in the mirror and you were nice to yourself by just saying you're old, I'm normally like, God, you look terrible.
- [40:02]
Dr. Leslie John
I don't say I'm filtering a little bit.
- [40:04]
Mel Robbins
But if I say to Chris, I
- [40:05]
Dr. Leslie John
still have acne, I'm in my 40s, what's up with that?
- [40:08]
Mel Robbins
Apparently your hormones are still working. That's what's up with that. But you know, when I say to Chris, I just feel really ugly lately, I just feel unattract. He always reassures me and it feels like it has less of a grip on me.
- [40:22]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [40:23]
Mel Robbins
In terms of work, you're missing out on getting the support that you need. And the other thing that kept really striking me, and I don't know if it really hit you as you were listening or watching to Dr. John is how every time that ball dropped, I felt the weight of somebody feeling like everything was on their shoulders, that it was all up to them, that nobody. That they had to figure it out on their own. And it was interesting to watch that because I think that's been one of my big stories that I've been working to change, which is, oh, it's all up to me. And a lot of that gets reinforced when you don't open up totally about what you're dealing with or you don't open up about the emotions that you're feeling.
- [41:09]
Dr. Leslie John
Right.
- [41:10]
Mel Robbins
You just bury it and bury it and bury it and bury it.
- [41:12]
Dr. Leslie John
In fact, we. It's something in my household I'm working on as well. And I said to Colin, I'm really exhausted by the number of decisions I need to make every day. Not disclosure decisions, but like snack. And so just telling him that he's. He, he couldn't read my mind and now he's just, just making decisions. I said, I would love for you to just make the decision. If I disagree, I'll tell you. But so that I have a dear friend of mine who for Mother's Day, she, she's so in tune with herself. For Mother's Day, she asked to make zero decisions. It was so awesome. Doesn't that sound so blissful? But this is also part of the point, which is that in order to do this well, you have to have self awareness. You have to really understand what's going on in your mental state. And so even things like sharing your feelings and all the scientific research on how opening up, whether it's to a therapist or writing it down in a journal, that is extremely therapeutic for us. It helps us process our feelings, it helps us feel better. In order to do that, well, you have to have insight into your psychological state. And when I started doing this, and this is why again I'm telling you, I was a guinea pig, because if, if like I'm a recovering emotional illiterate because I went my therapist, I was, I don't know, I was fetching about something and he's like, well, how do you feel? And I, I was saying cognitions, you know, like I feel trapped or whatever. I feel like this doesn't make sense. He's like, those are thoughts, a feeling. I'm like. Then I literally asked him, what is a feeling? Like PhD, what is a feeling? And then he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which I, I printed a version of that in the book, which so helpful. Which helps you to really figure out what you're feeling. And if you start with a really core feeling. So for example, the way the wheel works is you start off with, you just ask yourself, the version I have in my book is like super for me, emotional illiterate. So it starts off with a very simple question, like thumbs up, thumbs down, positive, negative. Okay, I got that. Then the next layer out of this circle is getting a little bit more refined, which is simply, is this an emotion that's very arousing? Like is there a lot of energy behind it? Or is it more of a non arousing energy, like a calm. And it turns out there's four combinations, right? So you can have a positive that's really active, like joy, excitement. You can also have a positive emotion that's low arousal, like calm. The same is true about negative things like anger, rage, Those are full force active. But like boredom would be something that's more. And so, and then once you get those, you can get. I won't go into deals now, but the next ring is like anger. Okay, is it disappointment? Is it rage? Right? And you can just literally like, oh, that one, that one, that one, that's me. And once you start doing this, you expand your emotional vocabulary, which helps you understand yourself better, which helps you communicate better.
- [44:18]
Mel Robbins
Well, what's helpful about that? Very simple construction. Am I feeling good or bad? And am I feeling like I wanna do something about it? Or am I like energy or am I feeling low about it? That just Even considering that if you're laying in bed and you're like, I love you, honey. And then you're like, wait, I feel bad right now. And it's, like, bringing me down.
- [44:42]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [44:43]
Mel Robbins
That's a way to access in that, like, something's up. Like, I just feel really low energy today. Can you give me a hug? Now you just.
- [44:49]
Dr. Leslie John
I see what you're saying. Like, the energy can serve as a cue to help you.
- [44:53]
Mel Robbins
For sure.
- [44:53]
Dr. Leslie John
For sure. I love that. Yeah.
- [44:55]
Mel Robbins
Let's just give, like, a really specific takeaway. So let's say you listen to this episode or you watch it, you go home at the end of the day.
- [45:03]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [45:04]
Mel Robbins
Your partner's like, how is your daily fine? Or, what's wrong? You're like, nothing. I don't talk about it. Do you have any kind of easy, quick ways to make yourself a little bit more open, even if you're exhausted and you don't want to talk?
- [45:20]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes. Well, so if you're exhausted and you don't want to talk, you can defer it and say, I'm exhausted and I don't want to talk. But thank you for asking. Let me have a drink or let me have a relaxation time.
- [45:33]
Mel Robbins
Okay, great. Love it.
- [45:34]
Dr. Leslie John
Number one. But if you are ready to engage, you're going to do. You're going to do two. Complete the sentence. Okay. You're going to do two. The first one, which is the most important, you're going to say I feel. You're going to complete that sentence, and then you're going to say, I need, and you're going to complete that sentence. The I feel is even more important. Sometimes you don't know what you need, and maybe you riff a bit on what you need. But I feel is really crucial. It's really crucial because it is more vulnerable than a thought. And because it's more. And we're talking about a personal, close relationship, when we show some vulnerability, it invites care. It's also not debatable the way a thought is. Thoughts are dictated by right and wrong and logic. And so if you say how you feel, feelings are feelings. Like, they're valid. Now, it might not be as easy as it seems because sometimes you list adjectives instead of thoughts. And we've kind of been there that you want to really get into feelings.
- [46:37]
Mel Robbins
I think that's very easy. Like, I think this is so simple.
- [46:39]
Dr. Leslie John
Okay, good. Good.
- [46:40]
Mel Robbins
Because if you think about how was your day? And you're like, I feel overwhelmed.
- [46:45]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah, totally.
- [46:45]
Mel Robbins
Or I feel proud of myself.
- [46:47]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [46:48]
Mel Robbins
I don't even know what I need because I'm so overwhelmed. Like, that's a different conversation than fine.
- [46:53]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [46:54]
Mel Robbins
If somebody says, what's wrong? And you say, I feel kind of confused about how I'm feeling right now. I don't even know what's wrong, how I feel.
- [47:04]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Yes.
- [47:04]
Dr. Leslie John
So maybe we should banish the word fine. That third rule is don't say fine.
- [47:08]
Mel Robbins
I like it because it's. And we can all take those two sentences, I feel I need.
- [47:15]
Dr. Leslie John
Exactly. Yeah.
- [47:17]
Mel Robbins
And you can do that with a work colleague, too.
- [47:20]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes, I feel and I need. And I like I need, too, because the reason I like I need it helps you get you in touch with yourself of what you need and think about what you need. And it helps to. Because your partner can't read your mind, say what you need. And so some examples may include, I need a hug. I need you to just listen. I don't want to fix. I just need you to listen. I need you to be on my side. I need you to help me see if I'm thinking through this the right way. I need you to help me figure out what I'm missing. Right. All I need. You can finish that in so many different ways. I need multiple things. Yeah.
- [48:02]
Mel Robbins
Yeah. It's really simple and powerful. Dr. John, I have so many more questions that I want to ask you, but let's just pause for a second, because this part of the conversation is one of those moments where I know as you're listening or watching, you're thinking, oh, wait, I do that. I stay silent. I smooth it over. I tell myself it's not worth bringing up. And I don't know about you, but I'm already starting to replay a lot of what she's saying and replaying a lot of things where I'm like, why didn't I just say something? I mean, I thought I was being easygoing, when really, I'm just avoiding the truth. And now I'm learning the weight that that creates for you. And we don't have to live like that. So while you sit with that, text this to somebody who deserves to hear this. Text this to somebody that stays silent. And you want them to be more open. And we're gonna take a short break. We're gonna let our sponsors shine. Do not go anywhere, because Harvard business school professor Dr. John has so much more to teach you, including, she's gonna explain why saying the thing you're afraid to say builds trust, not fallout. You know that feeling when your brain is fried?
- [49:25]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
You have, like, 12 irritating tasks you don't care about, but you have to do them anyway. That's where I've been lately. The administrative stuff was eating up half my day, so I've been using Microsoft Copilot as my extra set of hands. It's like having your own personal assistant. That's why Microsoft Copilot is my third favorite AI tool. Last week I had to send this long, overly complicated email about scheduling and
- [49:52]
Mel Robbins
travel, the kind of thing that takes up way too much energy for what it is.
- [49:56]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
I opened Copilot, talked to it out loud while I was walking around my kitchen, and Copilot turned it into a clean, professional draft. It was amazing. And because my brain wasn't fried, I had the energy to sit down and eat dinner with Chris without feeling mentally wiped.
- [50:13]
Mel Robbins
That's the whole point for me.
- [50:15]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Microsoft Copilot clears the clutter so I can be more present for the moments that matter. That's why I'm using it.
- [50:21]
Mel Robbins
If you want to try it for
- [50:22]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
yourself, visit Microsoft.com Melrobbins to download the Copilot app.
- [50:28]
Mel Robbins
Get started with Copilot today for free
- [50:29]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
and see how handing off the small stuff gives you more energy for the moments that matter. That's Microsoft.com melrobbins you know, you might
- [50:39]
Mel Robbins
think that you're a bad sleeper, but
- [50:42]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
here's what I want you to know.
- [50:43]
Mel Robbins
It's not you.
- [50:44]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
It's all the tiny disruptions that you've just gotten used to. The shifting, the tossing, the turning. And when you have tiny disruptions, your brain never fully shuts off. Well, that's where Mattress Firm can help you. Mattress Firm knows there are very common sleep problems that keep you up at night, and Mattress Firm's sleep experts will match you with a bed for deeper rest. Like the Tempur Pedic Adapt, it has a unique tempur material and helps minimize disruptions caused by movement. Mattress Firm knows the importance of undisturbed quality sleep and can match you with the right Tempur Pedic mattress for your best rest. For the great sleep you deserve, visit Mattress Firm and get a $300 instant gift and next day delivery.
- [51:25]
Mel Robbins
When you upgrade to a Tempur Pedic,
- [51:28]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
they make sleep easy. Restrictions apply. Next day delivery Available on select mattresses
- [51:33]
Mel Robbins
and subject to location.
- [51:35]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
See Store for details. This podcast is brought to you by Expedia. Planning a family vacation is a lot. Everybody has different schedules, different needs and strong opinions. So wouldn't it be nice to have a copilot, something that makes the planning part way easier? That's Where Expedia comes in. Expedia lets you book flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, all in one place.
- [52:00]
Mel Robbins
And when you bundle it together, you
- [52:02]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
can save up to 30% plus if
- [52:04]
Mel Robbins
plans change, because they always do.
- [52:06]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
At least my family Expedia helps you stay in control. Expedia, the one place you go to Go places. Members only Savings vary C site for details.
- [52:22]
Mel Robbins
Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel Robbins. We're here today with Harvard business school professor Dr. Leslie John, talking about the benefits and the skill of being open. All right, so, Dr. John, this is where I wanted to go next. You know, you hear a lot in the news right now about loneliness.
- [52:41]
Dr. Leslie John
Yep.
- [52:42]
Mel Robbins
And how does just kind of having these surface level interactions with people and not really opening up about anything or not being curious about the people in your life such that you're wanting them to open up. Like, how is that contributing to the disconnection that you're feeling?
- [53:04]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah. So I think that surface level connections, surface level interactions give this illusion of connection because they have all the trappings of real connection. Right. Like they've got the smiling, even if it's little force. They've got the eye contact, the shared experience. So they've got a lot of that trapping. But without the social risk, which is opening up a little bit, these types of superficial interactions, they end up making you feel, especially this introvert, socially full but emotionally malnourished. Right.
- [53:42]
Mel Robbins
Ooh, that's an interesting distinction. So your cup is full. I've had enough. I need to go home.
- [53:46]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah. Stimulation too much for me.
- [53:48]
Mel Robbins
But you actually don't feel anything, right?
- [53:51]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [53:52]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Oh, I love.
- [53:52]
Mel Robbins
So the stimulation of it versus the actual richness of the connection.
- [53:57]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah, yeah. And so then the question becomes, well, how do you do it? I don't know. What do we do? Right. What do we do? Okay, so in general, I would say you want to go. So you're not going to say. So imagine you're watching your kids play soccer. You're not going to all of a sudden go deep randomly out of the blue. Like, that's not what we're doing. What you're going to do is you're going to go. You think of it as going one layer deeper than what you ordinarily.
- [54:24]
Mel Robbins
Okay, give us the sentence. So what do you do?
- [54:26]
Dr. Leslie John
Right. So now let's break it down even more. Yes. So what you can do is instead of thinking as we're watching our kids, instead of commenting on what is happening or what happened, like, oh, they're having so much Fun. Try to think about a cue is to think about, what does that mean to you? So, for example, you could say, oh, look at our kids. They're having so much fun. You know, I don't even remember the last time I laughed that hard. When did you last laugh really hard, like a good belly laugh. And that does two things. So that's, that's getting it interesting and deep right away. It's also staying pretty positive. Right. We're not getting into, like, when's the last time you cried? We're not getting dark, but we're prompting some reflection. And this is like ninja level. I did another thing. I'm flattering myself. I'm really. I'm taking one of my best friend, Alison Wood Brooks, who's been on your show, one of her fundamental findings, which is, we don't ask enough questions. So you want to say this kind of what it means to you. When's the last time I laughed that hard? And then the great thing here is you're passing the torch. Oftentimes people naturally reciprocate and they'll say, oh, yeah, me too. But if they don't, you can prompt it by saying, when's the last time you had a great laugh? And then you're off to the race and you're not trying to get for a deep friendship, but you're like, this will be a fun, meaningful conversation. It's not just small talk.
- [55:48]
Mel Robbins
Well, it's true, because I think most of us, as I put myself in that kind of scene, it's like, oh, it's a beautiful day, right? You know, oh, how are your kids doing? Oh, you know what, you know, what are you doing this weekend? Like, it's just all this stuff right here. So look at what's happening and think about what it's triggering in you. And then turn and reveal. And then ask them, when's the last time you felt like that?
- [56:12]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah, exactly.
- [56:13]
Mel Robbins
Like, I immediately thought about the fact that, oh, watching your kids, it made me, you know, I ran track in high school. I really miss being on a team. Did you play team sports?
- [56:21]
Dr. Leslie John
Totally. Yeah.
- [56:22]
Mel Robbins
I got it. Wow. I want to read to you from your book Revealing. This is page 85. Research speaks to wide ranging tolls of concealment. For example, the more frequently people think
- [56:34]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
about their secrets, the more likely they
- [56:37]
Mel Robbins
are to experience feelings of inauthenticity, lower relationship satisfaction, and even worse, physical health outcomes. Talk about the cost of secrets.
- [56:51]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes. Yeah. So I think the main issue with secrets is they are really preoccupying they really, we think they're inert, we think they're neutral, but they really, really sneak up on us in occupying our psyche. And one of the tricky things with secrets is that they represent kind of an unresolved loop in your mind. Because if you have a secret you kind of haven't really resolved, you're constantly monitoring, should I say, should I not? And it's like you're kind of perpetually ruminating over this disclosure decision, essentially. I'm not saying we should reveal all our secrets. Some secrets are important to be kept.
- [57:38]
Mel Robbins
I want to dig into this only because I feel like there, in the context of your research, there's a difference between saying this information is private. I'm not ashamed of it completely. I am just, I have boundaries with who is going to know this information and who's not. But I'm not holding this information over my own head. Secrets feels like something that you use the word unresolved looped in my mind that you are holding over your own head and that you're wrestling with. So a secret. An example might be that you have fallen out of love with somebody and that you don't know how to tell em.
- [58:17]
Dr. Leslie John
Oh my gosh.
- [58:18]
Mel Robbins
And you have this secret that you are planning on breaking up with this person. But you don't know how.
- [58:25]
Dr. Leslie John
I had that. Yeah, I know. It's so hard. And it's so hard. I think that you hit the nail on the head though. Like being private, having boundaries is one thing. And the difference there is that you've made a decision that this is my boundary with a secret, it's unresolved. Like in that case of like, you really need to tell this person somehow because it's not good for either of you. But how? And that's, I think, a lot of the case with secrets, most all the time, it's not a question of whether to reveal, but it's a question of how to whom and when. Because even if it's just you writing in a journal, that secret that is going to make you, that is going to help you feel better, it's going to remove this rumination, it'll resolve it in certain ways. Because there's actually really interesting processes that go on in the brain when you reveal to yourself on paper or out loud. So somehow it's gotta be revealed.
- [59:28]
Mel Robbins
And you said to whom and when?
- [59:31]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [59:31]
Mel Robbins
Now can you talk though about how the research shows that when you're open about feelings, it can be more persuasive than making a logical argument even at work.
- [59:44]
Dr. Leslie John
Yes.
- [59:44]
Mel Robbins
Like, why do people listen more or care more when your emotions are involved?
- [59:49]
Dr. Leslie John
I know we think emotions, they're the filler, but emotions are information and they're really credible. They're really credible because they're hard to fake. So they also are riskier than sharing thoughts, which also makes them credible because you really mean it. If you're willing to take the risk to share some emotion, oftentimes the answer is reveal. So reveal why you're crying. Say tie it to your passion for your job. I am crying because I care so much about the stakeholders of this company that we better get this right, you know, so linking it to passion then can make it more compelling. Instead of being especially like with women gender, we worry about that too. Like, oh, she's just over emotional. So if you're able to do that, then it can be quite powerful. But you, of course, you know, you have to be careful because it is a tricky, it is a very tricky thing. But I, you know, I've had, I've had my own experiences ugly crying. And I had a. I don't know if you want me to tell this story, but I had a. When I was a baby academic, I gave a talk at a very fancy university which has a reputation for being very tough on speakers, read a holes to speakers. And they were asking me difficult questions, which I expect, which is good science. And. But what was bothering me was that they were asking them in a belligerent, rude way, right. And interrupting me. So they were being rude. And finally I just couldn't hold back anymore. And I just, you know, I was trying, like I was smart to try to not cry, right? These are people. I'm a baby academic, they're in charge of my fate because they're gonna like write me letters to say if I'm any good when I'm up for promotion. So I was really trying, but I just couldn't. I couldn't. So I'm just full on ugly crying full on, on stage. So, yeah, in front of like there's like 30 people, senior academics at this university. And I'm. It's not. I write about it in the book and I always. In the book I say, this sounds more composed than it was. You have to remember that the sound effects are right, like, like as I'm. But so I, I start bawling and then I think to myself, I'm like, they need to know why I'm crying because otherwise they're gonna think that I'm just like, I can't take hard Scientific questions. And so I stopped and I said, I'm stopping talk. Cause I need to tell you why I'm crying. I'm crying. I'm not crying. Cause you're asking me hard questions. I'm crying because you're being belligerent. I'm crying because you're being rude. And I didn't stop there, which I maybe should have, but I was like, okay, I've lit this thing on fire, so why not? And you. I might have even pointed a finger. You may not know this because all you see is the way you are, but, you know, you have a reputation. It's not okay, and it has to stop.
- [62:52]
Mel Robbins
What happened?
- [62:54]
Dr. Leslie John
Well, so then they, they, they were quiet the rest of the time. They were scared of me. Um, I did get a few apologies afterwards. And then. Well, first of all, it was not career suicide that I thought it would be. In fact, one of the faculty who was there later revealed to me, you know, 10 years later, that he wrote a really great supportive letter for my promotion. And the other thing, though, that I thought was really cool about it, other than the mortal humiliation, was that a couple of friends who went there a few weeks later, they were actually reasonable to them. And so I thought maybe, maybe I helped just a little bit. And this is related to something. I wouldn't call this exactly that, but something I call a catalyst confession. So the catalyst confession is when someone who is in a leadership position comes out and says something really bold, like Magic Johnson in the 90s. He came out and said, I'm HIV positive. And at the time, this was the gay disease. This was highly stigmatizing. And he really, really shaped the conversation in a positive way. In fact, there have been studies that have looked at, like, kind of pre post his announcement, and it was concluded that he probably caused about 900 additional people to get tested. So I think the opportunity for revealing in leadership, yes, at the micro level, you can get feedback. We can also talk about how you can, you know, gain more influence. But I think the real magic of it, speaking of Magic Johnson, is in the ability to like, use your position to like, destigmatize and to really. That's real leadership in my book.
- [64:40]
Mel Robbins
You know, it's interesting that you call that story humiliating because it may have felt that way, but from the outside hearing it, it sounds courageous and liberating. Cause you called them out. Well, so the distinction is you saying this is why, and it's not because of me. It felt it's because of you. Yeah. And it's Clear. That change did happen. And I love that you brought in the fact that you have a reputation for doing this.
- [65:06]
Dr. Leslie John
Yeah.
- [65:07]
Mel Robbins
And it has to stop. So, Dr. John, I want you to speak directly to the person that's here listening or watching right now. If they take one action. Based on everything that you have shared with us today, what is the most important thing to do?
- [65:23]
Dr. Leslie John
It is to share your feelings. And now that you've listened to this podcast, you know, I'm not being trite. You know that there's a lot of heft in that. Feelings are data. Feelings are really, really valuable information.
- [65:38]
Mel Robbins
Dr. Leslie John, what are your parting words?
- [65:40]
Dr. Leslie John
There's a study by a Cornell psychologist, Tom Gilovich. He's looked at the things that people regret in life, and he's found that 76% of the things that people regret in life are the things they did not do, the things they didn't say. Then there's research by a palliative care nurse by the name of Bronnie Ware. She has spent many, many hours with people on their deathbeds, and she wrote a book chronicling what are the things that they tend to regret. The number three regret. The number three most common regret of people that are dying is, I wish I had shared my feelings more.
- [66:22]
Mel Robbins
Share your feelings?
- [66:23]
Sponsor Voice 2
Yeah.
- [66:23]
Mel Robbins
Sheri, be more open and honest. I am so excited that you are here in Boston. Professor and Dr. Leslie John. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. From coming across the river and being here and sharing everything that you did
- [66:41]
Dr. Leslie John
today, thank you so much. Thank you for listening.
- [66:44]
Mel Robbins
I am so excited to see what you do with this conversation, who you share with. Actually sharing this episode with somebody that you wanna be more connected to is a way that you can be more open. I listened to this. I learned a lot about myself. I wanna connect deeply with you. Let's take a listen. Let's talk about it. I can't wait to hear what you thought and how you're gonna apply this. And because Dr. John said that we should do one thing, which is start by sharing our feelings, I'm gonna share my feelings with you. As your friend. I wanna tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And if you ask yourself, what might I be missing out on by not revealing, by not sharing, by not being open? When you really consider what you're missing out on, I know that you will create a better life by being more open and by being more curious with the people that you deeply care about. And now you have the research and the roadmap to go do it. Alrighty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
- [67:49]
Dr. Leslie John
Okay,
- [67:54]
Mel Robbins
We are in the middle of a loneliness echo. But today's guest. But today's. But today's guest, who is a Harvard Business School professor who. Who studies what the. Which will completely change. Which completely changed how I think about silence. So without further ado, help me welcome. Oh, sorry. So without further ado, because this conversation is only going to get more power for us. Oh, my God. We're here today talking about the idea that you're. We're here today. Fantastic.
- [68:29]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Okay.
- [68:30]
Mel Robbins
Excellent job.
- [68:31]
Dr. Leslie John
Excellent.
- [68:32]
Mel Robbins
You did dynamite. How do you feel?
- [68:33]
Dr. Leslie John
Thank you. Great. Thank you. You guys are such pros.
- [68:36]
Mel Robbins
Well, you did dynamite.
- [68:38]
Dr. Leslie John
It was so fun. It's so rewarding.
- [68:44]
Mel Robbins
Oh, and one more thing.
- [68:45]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and
- [68:52]
Mel Robbins
what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
- [68:59]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
I'm just your friend.
- [69:01]
Mel Robbins
I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a
- [69:07]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it?
- [69:13]
Mel Robbins
Good. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [69:18]
Dr. Leslie John
SiriusXM podcasts.
- [69:25]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
This segment is sponsored by Expedia. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You decide.
- [69:31]
Mel Robbins
Okay, that's it. I'm taking a vacation. And then you hop online to book
- [69:35]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
it and suddenly, oh my gosh, you have so many tabs open and it's so overwhelming that now you feel like
- [69:43]
Mel Robbins
you need a vacation from trying to book a vacation.
- [69:46]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
That's what makes Expedia so great. It is your one stop shop where
- [69:51]
Mel Robbins
every single detail of your vacation is
- [69:55]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
organized in one reliable, easy to use place. Flights, hotels, rental cars, activities and things
- [70:02]
Mel Robbins
to do, everything in one place.
- [70:04]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Expedia makes vacation planning easy so you can focus on what matters.
- [70:11]
Mel Robbins
Enjoying yourself. And as your friend, I want you to enjoy yourself.
- [70:16]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
I love to travel. Some of my favorite memories go all the way back to these little trips
- [70:23]
Mel Robbins
that I took with my parents and
- [70:24]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
my brother as a kid on the Let Them Tour.
- [70:27]
Mel Robbins
This year, I got to visit Australia
- [70:29]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
and New Zealand for the very first
- [70:31]
Mel Robbins
time in my life.
- [70:32]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
I'm 57, both countries, all the people we met. Pure magic. I even got to feed a giraffe, which has been on my bucket list forever. Travel makes you feel alive.
- [70:44]
Mel Robbins
And I'm not just talking about flying
- [70:46]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
halfway around the world. Just Traveling to a quick weekend getaway, seeing something new, exploring a neighboring town. It all counts as travel. In fact, there are three research backed reasons why travel is one of the most important things you can do for
- [71:03]
Mel Robbins
yourself and your happiness and your health.
- [71:06]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
And I want to break them down for you. So let's just start with reason number one.
- [71:10]
Mel Robbins
Why you need to travel more.
- [71:12]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
It adds more meaning to your life. In fact, one of the biggest regrets
- [71:16]
Mel Robbins
that people have near the end of
- [71:18]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
their life is that they didn't travel more.
- [71:21]
Mel Robbins
We had Dr. Carl Pillemer on the
- [71:23]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Mel Robbins podcast not long ago.
- [71:25]
Mel Robbins
He's a professor at Cornell and he's
- [71:27]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
interviewed thousands of people in their 80s, 90s and hundreds about what really matters in life, what makes life meaningful. And there's a theme that he has heard in this study over and over and over again. At the end of their lives, people regret not taking the trip. Dr. Pillemer said it perfectly when he was on this podcast. Life is incredibly short. Stop waiting. Book the trip. That's reason number one. The second reason that travel is one of the best things that you can do. It is so good for your brain. Seeing new sights, hearing new sounds, trying new foods, walking new streets. It's a workout for your mind. Your mind loves experiencing new things. And then have you noticed every time you travel what happens? You come home clearer, more creative, better able to solve problems and ready to adapt to whatever life throws. You see, when your brain is making new connections, you become this upgraded version of yourself. And that happens when you travel. And the final reason that travel is one of the best things that you
- [72:33]
Mel Robbins
can do for yourself.
- [72:34]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
And this one might be my favorite. Just planning the trip can make you happier right now. That means that you will feel the benefits of a future vacation starting today. When you give yourself something to look forward to, you put a little spark of excitement into your life right now, long before you're going to pack your bags.
- [72:58]
Mel Robbins
I want to give a big shout
- [72:59]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
out again to Expedia for sponsoring this
- [73:02]
Mel Robbins
segment and reminding you how important travel
- [73:04]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
is in your life. And if you're ready to start planning your next trip, Expedia makes it so simple. You can book flights, hotels, vacation rentals,
- [73:12]
Mel Robbins
cars and activities all in one place.
- [73:15]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
You can book everything together at once
- [73:17]
Mel Robbins
or book your flight now and figure
- [73:18]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
out the rest later and still save up to 30% Expedia the one place you go to Go Places Members Only Savings vary C site for details I'm
- [73:31]
Kiana
Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify once I figured out that Shopify was a thing. I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial@shopify.com not sure if
- [74:00]
Sponsor Voice 2
you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news these days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills? Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.