The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor

Summary

The Mel Robbins Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor
Host: Mel Robbins
Guest: Professor Alison Wood Brooks, Harvard Business School
Release Date: April 3, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast, host Mel Robbins sits down with Professor Alison Wood Brooks from Harvard Business School. Professor Brooks is renowned for her expertise in the science of negotiation and communication, teaching two of the most popular courses at HBS. She is also the author of the bestselling book Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves.

Mel Robbins introduces the episode as a free masterclass aimed at empowering listeners to advance their careers, secure dream jobs, negotiate better salaries, and enhance their influence both at work and in personal life.

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2. Understanding Effective Negotiation

Key Insights:

• Effective negotiation is not about being aggressive or solely focusing on one's own gains.
• Successful negotiators are excellent communicators who build meaningful relationships and understand the needs of others.

Notable Quote:

Alison Wood Brooks [08:11]: "The best negotiators are people who are just great communicators, people who have and are good at developing meaningful relationships, who figure out what other people need and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need."

Discussion Highlights:

• Contrary to popular belief, negotiators don’t need to be tough or rigid. Instead, they should focus on adding value and understanding the counterpart’s needs.
• Negotiations often involve multiple issues beyond just the primary request, allowing for creative solutions that benefit both parties.

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3. Importance of Communication in Career Advancement

Key Insights:

• Communication skills are critical for career progression, often more than technical or "hard" skills.
• Being able to effectively communicate your contributions ensures that your efforts are recognized and valued.

Notable Quote:

Alison Wood Brooks [10:33]: "They're doing a good job talking to their coworkers... They’re bringing value. They’re working hard and bringing value to the people around them."

Discussion Highlights:

• High performers thrive because they communicate well, making their contributions visible to key stakeholders.
• Without effective communication, even the most talented individuals might not receive the recognition they deserve.

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4. Making Your Contributions Known

Key Insights:

• Regularly document your work and actively communicate your achievements to ensure they are recognized.
• Sharing your accomplishments prevents them from being overlooked, especially in busy or large organizations.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Wood Brooks [42:22]: "Keeping notes... everyone forgets. How can you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember."

Mel Robbins [43:04]: "It's sort of like if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like, oh my God, I forgot that I went on that trip in July."

Discussion Highlights:

• Utilize tools like notes apps or running documents to track your weekly accomplishments.
• Send regular updates to your supervisor summarizing your progress and seeking feedback, thereby keeping your contributions top-of-mind.

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5. Networking Strategies

Key Insights:

• Networking should be approached with genuine curiosity and a mindset of how you can add value to others.
• Building meaningful relationships often leads to unadvertised job opportunities and professional growth.

Notable Quote:

Alison Wood Brooks [48:55]: "The keys to networking are the same as the keys to being a valuable person in the world, right? It's all about initiating and creating and sustaining meaningful relationships with people."

Discussion Highlights:

• Instead of trying to impress at networking events, focus on learning about others’ interests, needs, and challenges.
• Prepare by researching the person you plan to connect with, identifying potential areas where you can offer assistance or insight.

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6. Job Searching and Interviews

Key Insights:

• Tailor your job search and interview strategies to address the specific needs of the organization.
• Demonstrating how you can fulfill those needs makes you a more attractive candidate.

Notable Quote:

Alison Wood Brooks [47:38]: "Focusing on how can I fill that need. Right. So it's much more co-created than how can I be my best self."

Discussion Highlights:

• In interviews, instead of highlighting just your qualifications, emphasize how your skills and experiences can solve the company's current problems.
• Use structured responses, such as sharing two professional and two personal aspects, to provide a comprehensive view of yourself.

Notable Quote for Interview Tip:

Alison Wood Brooks [55:12]: "If you are going to stick with these sort of very abstract, open ended, broad questions like 'tell me about yourself,' which we are all going to confront, I like to make it more confident, concrete in ways like, for example... two things about my professional experience and then two things about my personal life."

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7. Managing Nerves and Reframing Anxiety

Key Insights:

• Anxiety is a natural response to situations where you care deeply about the outcome.
• Instead of trying to suppress anxiety, reframe it as excitement to harness its positive energy.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Wood Brooks [59:01]: "Feeling anxious means you care about something... So instead of trying to reduce your arousal and move to the positive zone, let's just move to the positive zone."

Mel Robbins [63:17]: "You could be working at a big box retailer and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work... it's about prioritizing the other person and figuring out what they... then reframing what you need and want from their point of view."

Discussion Highlights:

• Acknowledge that anxiety signals your investment in the situation.
• Use positive reframing techniques, such as affirming your excitement, to channel nervous energy into effective performance.

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8. Final Takeaways

Key Insights:

• Strive for connection rather than perfection in your interactions.
• Focus on understanding and delivering what others need to build strong, mutually beneficial relationships.

Notable Quotes:

Alison Wood Brooks [67:12]: "Don't aim for perfection. Don't aim to be trying to prove how great you are to other people. People aim for connection. Think about what other people need and then deliver it to them to the best of your ability."

Mel Robbins [69:42]: "If you're at a moment where you feel like you've gotten a lot of no's or closed doors, those actually are light bulbs on the string. And your job is to just keep going to the next one and trust that eventually you're going to get to the one that shines super bright."

Discussion Highlights:

• Emphasize authentic connections over showcasing an image of perfection.
• Persistence is key; not every interaction will lead to success, but each is an opportunity to refine your approach and build meaningful connections.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a wealth of research-backed strategies for enhancing career progression through improved communication and negotiation skills. Professor Alison Wood Brooks emphasizes the importance of understanding others' needs, making your contributions visible, and approaching interactions with a mindset geared towards mutual benefit. By implementing these insights, listeners can confidently navigate career challenges, secure desired advancements, and foster influential relationships both professionally and personally.

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Remember: Effective communication and negotiation are not about asserting dominance but about creating value for others and building genuine connections. Apply these principles to transform your career and personal interactions.

Transcript

[Mel Robbins]

Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Okay, I just finished a conversation with acclaimed Harvard Business School professor Alison Wood Brooks, and all I'm going to say is, wow. If you or someone that you love wants to make more money, land a promotion or a raise, find your dream job, or simply be more confident and influential at work or in life, congratulations. Seriously. Because you hit play on the exact thing you need to listen to right now. Professor Brooks teaches two of the most popular courses at Harvard Business School. One is on the science of negotiation. The other one on the science of communication. The strategies and tactics that you're about to learn come from Professor Brooks. Fifteen years of research. It's what she's teaching at Harvard Business School. It's the subject of her new bestselling book, Talk. And today. Well, today she is in our Boston studios to share all of this with you and your loved ones. So whether you're about to graduate or you're entering the workforce, or you're a shift worker or a corporate executive, or you're just tired of having the overnight shift at the hospital, your friend Mel Robbins is going to tell you you deserve more respect. You deserve to be paid for your contributions, and you have more influence than you think. Today, with the help of Professor Brooks, you're gonna learn how to unleash it. Because what she's gonna share with you, it's gonna blow your mind and catapult you forward in your career. Because this is a free masterclass from one of the most popular professors at Harvard Business School. I love this time of year because we're all thinking about goals and priorities and what we want. But have you added take a vacation to the list? Because you should. And right now is the perfect time to plan your trip. And all you need is one website. Say hello to Expedia. One stop Shop for killer vacation planning. Expedia literally has every tool and everything you need to plan a great trip. Download the Expedia app or visit expedia.com to start planning. You do need to be a one key member to use price tracking. Signing up is easy and free. Expedia made to travel. Lowe's knows that taking on more projects should be rewarding. That's why loyalty members get more every day with rewards for every home or business purchase. Plus shop weekly member deals and get access to free standard shipping. So what are you waiting for? Join for free today. Lowe's. We're here to help you save. Loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com terms subject to change. Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, I just want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. And because you hit play on this episode and you found the time to listen to this, here's what I know about you. You're not only the kind of person that values your time, but you have a lot of ambition and you're looking for ways to advance your career and you're in the right place. Your ambition might mean that you want to make more money or land your dream job or just get the recognition and respect that you deserve at work. Well, this conversation today is a must listen for you and for everyone that you care about, because there are specific things that you can do based on the research to get what you deserve at work and in life. Everything that you're about to learn today comes from 15 years of research from Harvard Business School Professor Allison Wood Brooks. She also has a brand new book, Talk, which is all about the science of communication, and it summarizes one of the most popular courses at HBS that she created and teaches. Now, Professor Brooks took time to come over from her Harvard Business School classroom over across the river in Cambridge to be here in our Boston studios for one reason. She's doing it for you. Now, to put this in context, if you were to even get into Harvard Business School, I know I probably couldn't. It would cost you over $100,000 a year to attend. And today you're getting the biggest takeaways distilled down for free. So if you have somebody in your life who needs to ask for a promotion, or maybe there's someone that you know that is entering what is a very tough job market right now. This conversation today and everything that Professor Brooks is about to share is gonna give you a leg up and the confidence boost you need. And we're also gonna get into some groundbreaking research that changed my life. This is research that will help you nail any interview. It'll help you navigate a difficult conversation and destroy that presentation that's coming up. No matter how nervous you may be. Buckle up because class is in session and it's gonna be a masterclass at that. Professor Alison Wood Brooks, thank you. Thank you for being here today.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, congratulations on your bestselling new book. Talk the science of conversation and the art of being ourselves. And I cannot wait to have you teach us exactly what to do so that we can get ahead in our careers. We can land our dream jobs, we can get paid what we deserve, and we can manage the stress and anxiety that comes from all things about making money and truly negotiating better. I just want to start by having you tell the person who's listening about your background, the classes that you teach at Harvard Business School, and why they recruited you. They recruited you to come to Harvard Business School to teach negotiation.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. I'm a behavioral scientist. I got my PhD at Wharton at the business school in Philadelphia where I studied emotions and how people feel, how they talk about their feelings, and specifically in the context of negotiations. How do we feel when we're negotiating, how we feel before we negotiate. And I was hired at the Harvard Business School to teach this course on negotiation. And it's an incredible course. It's so valuable. We all need to learn how to negotiate more effectively. I taught that for about four years, and then I started to get a little itchy. I was like, I think the business school might need something else in addition to this negotiation course. So I created a course called Talk that focuses very broadly on how to become a better conversationalist in all areas of your life.

[Mel Robbins]

Let me just say, it's not just any course. This course has a wait list. I mean, students are trying to negotiate their way into this course. And before we jump into some of the research and the specific things that you're gonna tell us to do in order to get promoted, in order to negotiate a higher salary, in order to find and land our dream jobs, and to also combat the nerves that come from negotiating and having difficult conversations at work or in our life. Can just talk a little bit about some of the biggest takeaways that the person listening might find very surprising. From the Harvard negotiation course.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. When you imagine a good negotiator, I think this really tough, rigid, persuasive person comes to mind when we actually study people negotiating in practice in the real world. Often the best negotiators are people who are just great communicators, people who have and are good at developing meaningful relationships, who figure out what other people need and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need. It's not about getting in there and saying, give me more money or give me more power. It's literally giving people, actually adding value and bringing what people need to them.

[Mel Robbins]

I want to make sure I heard you correctly, because if I think about negotiating, whether it's for a higher salary or it's just trying to get the better deal at a car dealership, or it is winning any kind of argument. I would think that you need to be firm and blustery and know your value and kind of have the right things to say. But if I'm hearing you correctly, you just said that the best negotiators, based on the research, are people that understand the needs of the person they're trying to get something from.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Of course, yes. Very few negotiations are about just one issue. It's not like you're gonna be doing this tug of war, push and pull on the price of a car. There are other issues that matter. For example, starting with nobody wants to talk to somebody who's blustery and decisive and harsh. Like, no one goes into an interaction wanting it to be miserable and confrontational. And so even that itself is a thing that you can deliver to them to make it more pleasant, more enjoyable. That is value that you can bring to them that's gonna make them to make a concession on price.

[Mel Robbins]

So I want to take all of the research and the biggest takeaways from the incredibly popular classes that you teach at Harvard. And I want to apply them to getting ahead in your career, getting a job that is your dream job, networking effectively, managing nerves when you have to have tough conversations. And I want to go through this one by one. What is the single biggest factor that determines whether or not somebody actually gets promoted or paid more at work?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It's so funny. When we think about people who get promoted, we think of these powerful people who are sort of like masters of the universe or maybe tycoons or whatever. In practice, the people who thrive at work, who do well, who perform well, are good at conversation. They're doing a good job talking to their coworkers. They're doing a good job talking to their investors, to their clients, to their customers, to their boss. They're people that everyone likes working with because they're enjoyable to be around. And they're bringing value. They're working hard and bringing value to the people around them.

[Mel Robbins]

You know, that makes sense, because I remember seeing somewhere this research about the single biggest factor that determines whether or not a woman in particular gets promoted or somebody that is a minority gets promoted. And it's whether or not their contributions are known. And if you really stop and think, if you're somebody who is quiet and you're hoping people know what you're doing and you're not a good communicator because it's not a skill that you've practiced or because your nerves get the best of you, then you're leaving it to hope and chance that you're going to get recognized because your contributions being known is largely determined by whether or not you can communicate effectively.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, sometimes your contributions are observable without talking. Sometimes other people will notice and will say something and sort of promote about you, talk good about you, something that they've observed. But very often, if you think about a high performer at work and you track back, well, how did they become known as a high performer? You track the chain of information back. And very often it comes back to a point where it's like, well, actually, he told me himself that he just won this award or that he just figured out this new problem, or he figured out this new thing. So very often it comes back around to this idea of like, if something great is happening and no one's noticing, it's up to you to share it with someone.

[Mel Robbins]

You know, I just had this happen because we found out that we are the number one ranked podcast in the world on Apple podcasts. I mean, it's like I never in a million years imagined a world where I would see the Mel Robbins podcast ahead of Joe Rogan. And it's funny, because even somebody that listens to this show twice a week, every week wouldn't know that. Because you're not paying attention to the charts.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

That's right.

[Mel Robbins]

It's not until I actually say that this is something that has happened that you're aware of this thing that has happened. And I almost don't wanna say it because I feel like, okay, I'm bragging, and then you're not gonna like me and then you're gonna think I'm full. Let them. I can follow my own advice. But what were you gonna say, Professor?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I was gonna say, now that you've said it, anyone who hears this episode can then go and they can share that information. I can leave our conversation here and I'm gonna say, guess whose podcast I got to go on? And it's so amazing because guess who's the number one podcast right now? It's Mel's podcast. I wouldn't have known that except if you told me. Even someone who's coming to visit. So there are so many examples of this where it wouldn't be known unless you shared it.

[Mel Robbins]

I think a great rule of thumb is to assume that nobody at work actually knows what you're working on.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

That's right.

[Mel Robbins]

Unless you are Very good at communicating. And you're making it known. I have a question, because at Harvard Business School, y'all do a lot of research on what makes for effective CEOs and what makes for influential leaders at work. And this applies to all of us. This research, it's not just somebody in a company. This is about whether or not you do a good job leading a group of volunteers to do something, whether or not you're a good leader in the Little league kind of system that everybody and all your friends are coaching in. Leadership is a function of your ability to influence other people. So when you look at the research that is done at Harvard Business School, what is the most kind of overlooked skill of great leaders?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. I think this is part of why my course has been such a hit and why it sort of hit such a nerve. Even when our students are in business school, they focus on hard skills like, oh, I'm gonna learn as much as I can about finance. I'm gonna learn as much as I can about accounting. I'm gonna learn as much as I can about private equity. But when you revisit with actual leaders out in the world, whether it's at a fancy company and they're a CEO or the manager of the night shift, of the serving staff at a restaurant, every time, everything they have in common, they say, I've been successful because I'm good at interacting with the. I'm good at connecting with people. I'm good at figuring out what people need and helping them get it. Conversation is this incredible superpower that not enough of us are taking advantage of.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, it's true. Because if I think about wanting to be successful, whether it's launching a business or having a side hustle or just continuing to get promoted and feel like I'm growing at work or to land my dream job and network effectively, I'm thinking more about these things I'm supposed to do, but I'm not thinking a lot about the importance of mastering the skill of communication along the way.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And it is a skill.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And nowadays, because of this new science of conversation, it's a more quantifiable skill than ever before. And we've learned so much about how to build this skill.

[Mel Robbins]

And Professor Brooks, you've already said something twice now that I wanna highlight that I wanna make sure that the person listening caught this, because I know this is one of these conversations that is going to get shared, particularly probably with parents and grandparents down to nephews and nieces and sons and daughters around looking for jobs and actually Being successful and influential in your career. You have now said twice in talking about the science and research around being effective as a leader and a communicator, that it's about helping the other person or understanding what the other person wants. And that being a key component of this skill of communication. So if I take that nugget and I now say, okay, how the heck does that apply to me wanting to ask for a raise? Like, isn't there a script that I need to follow where I march in and I'm confident and I ask for what I want and negotiate in a really powerful way and that means I'm going to get it?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, we'd like to. I think it's easy to think about that. Someone walks in and they're confident and they say, I deserve a raise because of X, Y and Z. And you lay out the data and you say, because I'm great and you owe this to me. Before you actually figure out what's in their mind, what do you value in an employee? Am I doing a good job? How can I add more value? What could make this organization better? How could I be more pleasant to be around? How could I be more helpful to my colleagues? And this is not the mindset that people usually go in with. They go in with this. I'm strong, and I'm going to convince you that I'm right and deserving. There are questions like, how many other people do you have available to you that you could replace me with? That's an important question. If your boss has a queue of 200 other resumes sitting on their desk, you're probably not in a very powerful position to walk in and say, hey, give me a raise. But if you are bringing a lot of value and you're hard to replace, then maybe you are in a better position to talk about that.

[Mel Robbins]

So I just wanna make sure I got this straight. Cause I feel a little bad because I was out to dinner last night, believe it or not. I mean, I love how the universe works. And the person that was waiting on our table came up and it turns out that they're a huge fan of this podcast. And it. And I said, oh, well, what topic would you want me to cover? And I kid you not, she said, I'm the manager at this restaurant and next week I'm going in and I'm asking for a raise. And I think I gave her the wrong advice.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

What'd you tell her?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, the first thing I said to her is, I said, the one thing I don't want you to do is do not look at Glassdoor and do not find every other salary range in your area, and then assume that your boss should pay you that, because that doesn't feel like you telling me that you're irreplaceable. That feels like an ultimatum. And when somebody does that to me, it makes me go, okay, well, if you'd like to get paid that at a different restaurant, go get that job. And I then said to her, what I would do is I would look back through your calendar and your photographs and jog your memory and try to come up with a list of all of the problems you solve, all of the things that you do that your boss does not realize that you do. Come up with the number of different jobs that you do, and then also come up with the reasoning behind why you want to grow in this role and why that's important to you. But I didn't say I want you to first stop and put yourself in your boss's shoes. What does your boss need in an incredible manager? What makes you irreplaceable? And I think that's something that nobody is talking about.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And. Or take the. You've now instructed her to make this, like, log of things that she's done. She could bring the log to her boss and say, which of these things is most valuable to you? What do you think is, what am I doing here that you love so that I can do more of that? Which of these do you think I should do less of? How can I grow in this role? What should I be doing differently? Better? Great. Which of these are most valuable to you that make you want to hold onto me?

[Mel Robbins]

So you would have that conversation before you actually have the one where you're truly asking for the promotion or the raise?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. And this is true of any conversation where you're trying to be. The mindset of trying to be persuasive is a very dangerous mindset.

[Mel Robbins]

What do you mean?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

There are so many conversations where we go in and we often at work, and we want to persuade someone to agree with us. I want to persuade my boss that I am deserving of a raise. But the way to do that, ultimately the way to be persuasive is to go in with a learning mindset. When you go in and you try and learn as much as you can about what's valuable to them, what's valuable to the organization. What do they love about what you're doing? What do they hate about what you're doing? Learn, learn, learn. Ultimately, that conversation's Gonna feel like the two of you are solving a problem together rather than arguing and pushing and pulling and you trying to persuade them to agree with you. And ultimately, you will ironically end up being more persuasive.

[Mel Robbins]

Who knew that the Harvard Business School professor who teaches the. In the science of communication and negotiation would give us unbelievably amazing advice?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Aw.

[Mel Robbins]

No, I'm not kidding. Because it's kind of one of those steps that's so obvious that you miss it. Because the truth is, anybody that works for me that makes my job easier, you're invaluable. Anybody that solves problems before they become a problem for me, you're invaluable. You get in early, you stay late. You're invaluable.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And it's not a trick. It's not like you're going to this conversation and you're going to try and trick them. It's so authentic and rooted in reality. You need to figure out what's valuable to them and then deliver it. And then you become invaluable to them, of course. And that's how relationships work. That's how work works.

[Mel Robbins]

I think most of us do the opposite. I have certainly been guilty when I have been an employee and I make a lousy employee because I watch what's happening in the company, and then I go, oh, they're successful, therefore I deserve more, therefore I am owed more. And then I start to feel entitled. And then I rehearse my little scri. And then I go in with my hands on my hips and my case that I'm gonna make, and then it's, like, denied.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And that step of going, have I even sat with my boss and asked what would make your life easier? What would make me irreplaceable? What are you looking for me to do that I'm not doing? What are the things that I do that you actually value? What is a total waste of time?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Or if you're actually feeling sort of the social comparison thing of this high performer, you could go in and say, what are they doing? This. That's awesome. That I could do more of. Make it practical. We all do social comparison, but it's often useless. A sort of waste of your emotional energy. Turn that waste into something productive, which is like, so much of what we observe in other people is this sort of myth of naturalness, or they're not doing that much more than me. They're not doing anything special. Or that just comes naturally to them. When you dig under the hood and you actually ask people what do they do that's good? How do they make people around them feel? What work are they getting done? You realize, oh, I'm not doing that, but I could. I could try. So there's just a lot. There's a lot more to learn there.

[Mel Robbins]

You know, Professor Brooks, that right there is worth a million dollars. And let me tell you why. Because typically, when you see somebody who is performing at work or they are excelling at work or they are hitting their numbers or whatever, you tend to see that example, and then you either invalidate yourself or you go only playing Peyrance. And what you're saying is, no, no, no, no, no. There are skills, there are habits, there are patterns of behavior that this person engages in. How about you operate for a couple weeks and you just mirror what that person is doing? Because that person is demonstrating the behavior and the communication style and the work style that actually wins in this organization.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, it's undeniable proof that they're doing something right. Even if it feels like those behaviors are sort. If you track back and you say, but yeah, he was the one who said that he was great at this, and now you're all just listening to him. Well, he nailed it. They're listening to him. He's succeeding. Maybe you have something to learn from that.

[Mel Robbins]

Wow. You know, I could see how this also plays out in personal situations. And I'm gonna just take a small tangent because I wanna just put my arm around the person to make you understand that what we're actually talking about is influence your ability to influence other people's behavior to your benefit. And so an example that comes to mind immediately that I realize I completely screwed up is the negotiating with my husband for how we're gonna spend our holidays. His family, my family. And I think we all can think of situations where we get highly charged and then we march in and demand what we want instead of stopping to think, okay, well, what does my partner care about? What does this roommate care about? And doing that homework, Professor Brooks, to force yourself out of your point of view and go, well, what might that person care about? And how can I start the negotiation really being interested in what that person cares about instead of jamming my opinion like a poop sandwich down their throat for them to choke down? No, like, I. I can see the mistakes that I've made. Professor Brooks, I want to hit the pause button real quick so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors. And while you take a listen to our sponsors, I want you to share this conversation with somebody because the information that Professor Brooks is sharing will absolutely help whomever listens to this catapult their career. We all deserve that. Don't go anywhere. There is so much more she's gonna share with us us after this short break. So stay with me. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at a pharmacy, that's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove these painful parts of getting better with things like 247 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy Healthcare just got less painful. The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote. Today with leading networking and connectivity, advanced cybersecurity and expert partnership, Comcast business helps turn today's enterprises into engines of modern business.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Powering the engine of modern business. Powering possibilities.

[Mel Robbins]

Restrictions apply. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And today you and I are getting to spend time together with Harvard Business School Professor Allison Wood Brooks. And you're distilling for us, Professor Brooks, some of the key takeaways from the most popular classes at Harvard Business School that you teach. And so where I want to go next is what are the mistakes that people make when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, they go in and do what you're saying, which is they go in sort of righteous and resolute. Think this is what an influential person looks like. This is what they sound like. They're decisive, they're convincing, they're compelling and strong, aren't they? But when you talk about dialogue, when you talk about, oh, this is, there's a human being on the receiving end of this and you realize that every encounter, whether it's a job, a salary negotiation or a first date or whatever, that's another human mind sitting on the other end and they need to receive what you're saying. So going in with your hands on your hips and making your argument, this is not a public speech. This is a co created dialogue with another person who has needs and Wants and desires and opinions and beliefs that differ from yours. And you need to figure out what they are in order to be the best position to actually deliver what they need.

[Mel Robbins]

How does knowing what somebody else needs help me get what I want?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Oh, my goodness. It's the. The most direct pathway. And the thing is, Mel, we're not good at guessing what other people need, Even with people you know, well, like your. Like your husband.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, then how the hell am I going to know what my boss needs?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

You got to ask questions, endlessly asked questions. You can ask them. What do you need? What are you excited about? What is this other employee doing that's so great? How can I do better? What are you. What am I doing on my list of tasks that I'm totally nailing? What could I do better? Right. You need to be a sort of glutton for learning, a glutton for feedback. And then it will actually make you invaluable to them and put you in that powerful position to say, look, I know I'm invaluable to you. You've told me. And now I think I deserve more.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, you've also just signaled that you're now wanting to succeed and that you're not gonna waste time guessing.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

That you're willing to align and be flexible to cause more value for us.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

You yourself wanna succeed, and at the same time, you're signaling, I want us to succeed. I want. I want this restaurant, I want this investment bank. I want whatever this school. I want us as a group to succeed. Let's figure out how I can help us do that.

[Mel Robbins]

So I think most of us probably wait until our annual or mid year review to do this, but when is the best time?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I really love more casual feedback.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It's so stressful to go into like a 360 review or your annual feedback meeting and everybody nervous. And it feels very high stakes. You have the opportunity to ask questions anytime.

[Mel Robbins]

That's true.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Anytime you see somebody, hey, I tried this thing. Here's. Let me give you, like, show you a video. Let me show you. What do you think about this? Was this a good idea that I did this? What could I have done better? You were in that presentation I gave the other day. What did you think of my slides? Like, what could I have done better? Should I have not even used slides? Right. The opportunity to ask for lower stakes, more casual feedback is always there, but it requires that you ask those questions well.

[Mel Robbins]

And the more you do that, the more you're in a dialogue where it's pretty clear you're a valuable contributor.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. And they're more invested. It's causing people around you to actually think about you. Right. It's saying, like, hey, I care about your opinion, and now we have a meaningful enough relationship where I feel comfortable asking you. That's so valuable. Like, you're embedded. You're enmeshed in this sort of social network. Organizations are just a group of people who care about what they're working on.

[Mel Robbins]

So let's say you're a shift worker.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Worker.

[Mel Robbins]

Right. One of my daughters works at a restaurant, and let's just say she wants better shifts. How do you use this strategy to try to negotiate without being very direct around getting better shifts? And I'm not saying for the record that my daughter wants better shifts. I'm just using it as an example. Because somebody might listen to you at the restaurant. Yes, exactly. But as a former waitress and bartender, I know when the schedule comes out, you're like, ugh, another crappy shift. How do I get the good shift?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Totally. I spent many years of my life waitressing too. I know this feeling. So I think there's a couple answers. The. The first question is, who are you talking to? Who are you targeting? Oh, because you could talk to your fellow servers first and say, are you also unhappy with your shifts?

[Mel Robbins]

Do.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Are there any opportunities for us to trade? That would be win win. Right. So that's. We call that trading on differences. People have different preferences. There might be win wins in there to trade with the fellow servers. You could. Then if not, if that's not an option, you can go and talk to your boss and say, like, when you're making this schedule, what are you thinking about? Is there something about this shift that you think I'm uniquely positioned to do? Am I doing a good job here? What value am I bringing? Or what? This. I would really love to be on this earlier shift, but I see that this other server is there. Do you think they're uniquely positioned to be there? What are they doing? That's great.

[Mel Robbins]

Or what could I do to put myself in a position to be considered? Yes.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

What can I do to earn it?

[Mel Robbins]

You know, what I love about this is that oftentimes. And I'll speak as an employer and as a parent. Right. Cause kids sort of like an employee negotiating. Oftentimes it feels a little bit like me against you. And what I love about this strategy, Professor Brooks, is that all of a sudden, you, in a very sneaky way, you made me with you.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And so there was nothing Adversarial. There was nothing confrontational. It's not like you're making me wrong. Cause I didn't put you on the great Saturday night shift. You're basically saying, what do I need to do to put myself in a position to be considered, which then allows me to be with you versus against you.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Their job is hard. The job that they're doing to decide who's doing what shift is a complicated puzzle to solve. And so you're saying, I see that this is a complicated puzzle. How can I help you solve this puzzle? And how can I become a more valued part of the puzzle? This is a really great mindset shift. Whenever you confront even a tiny disagreement, instead of thinking of it as confrontational, instead setting it aside and saying, like, I'm with you, I care about you. I see what you're doing is hard. Let's try and solve this together. That's a really important mindset shift. And it's almost always true, right? Whether it's with your spouse or your kid or your boss. These are people you really care about and admire. You don't need to be getting in a fight with them about really anything.

[Mel Robbins]

I feel like my husband has taken your negotiation and your science of communication course, because he constantly. When I start to get agitated about something, he'll be like, mel, I'm not against you. We need to work on this thing together. Which gets me out of that adversarial thing. And I think we do feel that way, particularly at work, because money, livelihood, a sense of feeling good about yourself and that you're progressing, that you start to get really nervous about it.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel. And you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them, just reminding them relentlessly, hey, I'm with you. I got your back. Like I see you. It makes sense that you feel upset about where you are in the schedule. Let's talk about how it could get better in the future. Right? Like, we're in this together. I'm affirming you. And also, I can't move you right now.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, I think that's important because a lot of us have adversarial relationships with our boss or with our business partners, and we think they're against us. And it's a huge shift. And again, I'm gonna remind you, as you're listening, she's not making this up. I mean, this is what they're teaching at Harvard Business School in the renowned course on negotiation. And this is what you are Summarizing in your bestselling book, Talk, which is based on you teaching one of the most popular classes at Harvard Business School, learning how to communicate and negotiate effectively is a important skill that helps you have more influence, make more money, be more effective with your family, with everybody. So let's say that you take this important advice and you actually have been peppering with small conversations and you've been putting yourself in the person's shoes that you're now trying to get something from. Is there a certain time when to have the conversation? If you've been having all the little conversations all along to try to understand their position?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. If you've had these conversations and you feel like you really understand how you're adding value, you've really put in the effort to become this sort of invaluable, irreplaceable contributor and you really have assessed and been honest with yourself, do I deserve more? And you get to this place where you're like, yes, I think I do. After all of that, which is important, that's an important first step. Then you get to this point where you need to work up the courage to say, is there a world where you could even afford, could you give me a raise? Can the organization afford it? Can you afford it? Do you agree with me? Because I'm feeling like I really need it and it would really help me.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, hold on a second, that sounds weak. I'm just gonna come right out and be like, it sounds weak to say, could you afford it and I need it? You know what I'm saying? Like, that's actually the language you should use.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I think in our minds we have this image of what strength looks and sounds like, but in the experience of a conversation, strength actually looks quite different. It's people who go in open minded, with good data, good reasons, good reflection, and you can say, hey, we've had a lot of conversations about this. I know you think I'm doing a really great. That I'm invaluable to you because of these things that we've talked about before. We've gotten to a point now where I'm really hoping that you could reward me for it.

[Mel Robbins]

Put your money where your mouth is, asshole. No, that's not what you say.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, I think we have this idea of what strength looks like. That in the practice of human to human connection and conversation is not actually how it plays out.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, what's also interesting is if you work for a larger company, the fact of the matter is a lot of this is tied to your Title.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And to your tenure. And it's also gonna require the person you report to to then have to go advocate on your behalf. And it's not always as personal as you'd like to think. But if you're in a smaller organization, the presumption that the company's doing well, therefore you deserve to do, you know, a lot better than you currently are, is kind of an arrogant presumption. Cause you haven't seen the P and L. Yeah. So actually asking, could you even be in a position to do this because you agree that I'm killing it here. It actually can we do.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It's a very. The questions of, are you the right person?

[Mel Robbins]

It's kind of tricky, actually.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Are you the right person to. Do you have the power to even say yes to me? Figuring out who to talk to is a really hard question. They would love to give you a raise, but they don't have the power to do it. Or they would love to give you a raise, but they can't afford to do it. These are all things you need to figure out. It's not weak to ask.

[Mel Robbins]

Right.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It's smart to really be thinking, are they in a position where they can give me what I want? Are their hands tied?

[Mel Robbins]

Well. And I suppose if they're not in a position, you can also say, well, look, I'm looking to make 10, $20,000 more. What do I need to do here to actually have that happen?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And they might say, you need to bring in more clients so that I can afford to give it to you. Right. And that's good to learn. And then you can go out and do it.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes, this is so.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Can I say one more thing, Mel? Yes. Much of our conversation has focused on asking for a rate, asking for more money. A very big takeaway from the negotiation course at hbs. And this talk book is, yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things about your work, the meaning of your work, how connected you feel to your co workers, to your boss, your relationships. Do you have a work bestie? Do you have a. Of anybody there that you enjoy being around? Is there convenient parking? Is there good coffee? These things are not insignificant. So when you find yourself over fixating on getting that $10,000 raise, I would urge people to also really think about what are other things. If my company can't afford to give me $10,000 or $20,000 more a year, are there other things that would make my life so much better, so much more pleasant. That are not about money at all.

[Mel Robbins]

Like, could I do a four day work week?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Could I do a four day work week? Can we get an espresso machine in office? Can I, could I have a friend who's really well qualified for this open role that we have? Could we think about hiring them? They would make me so happy to work with them. You know, think creatively, think outside of just one issue.

[Mel Robbins]

That's so true because we do get fixated. And not to say that the money isn't important and not to say you don't deserve to be compensated for the contributions and the effort that you're making. And I do think the other thing too is that a lot of times, at least speaking for myself is I would show up in a role and do the job that was asked of me. And then I expect because I'm doing the job that's asked of me, that by the way, they could hire a hundred other people to do the job that is asked of me. But am I contributing more so that I am more valuable? And these are not the conversations that I ever had with myself because I was so busy going, my friends in investment banking are making all this money and you know, I want this and I want that. And look at these influencers online. And you know, my company looks like they're doing well and my boss drives a nice car, so therefore I should, you know. And you get up in that mindset.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Dangerous.

[Mel Robbins]

Very.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. And there's a saying of like dress for the job that you want. But it's more than dress like the, you need to behave like the job that you want. So if they hired you to do a very simple job, if you start doing things that are actually above and beyond and more valuable, truly valuable to the organization, you're already doing the next level job. And you can go in and point that out to them and they might say, yeah, you're right. Like we need to reward you for, we need to pay you like you're doing that job.

[Mel Robbins]

So if the research is undisputed that making your contributions known is one of the most effective things that you can be doing. Because just assume your boss is so busy they don't even know all the things that you're doing. And if you're really good at your job, you're taking care of so much that they're not aware of it because it's not on fire anymore. So are there strategies that you recommend that somebody think about in terms of how you make sure that the value that you're providing is known at work.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I think two things. One, keeping notes. If you feel like you've done something valuable, make note of it. In academia, we have these very long CVs that were retired track. Like everything, every little move we make, every conference we attend, every tiny poster that you present, every paper that you publish, it seems a little bit ridiculous, but in retrospect, when you look back, you say, no, that was just keeping notes on all the little things that I did that felt like it added value to the field, added value to my organization, to my co authors, all of it. And so you can see why that's valuable. It's sort of undisputable evidence of all of the value that you added somewhere.

[Mel Robbins]

It's sort of like if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like, oh my God, I forgot that I went on that trip in July.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Everyone forgets. How can you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember?

[Mel Robbins]

Yep.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

So keeping notes in some way, some document, where you're keeping track of what you've done is sort of part one. And part two is talk to people about it. Tell people when you've done something that you feel proud of or you feel like could be valuable. Don't keep it a secret, like no one's gonna know about it. And yes, maybe it brings you a sense of pride, but in terms of work, it's really valuable to share it.

[Mel Robbins]

I have two other things that I would love to share as ideas. Because I remember when my daughter started at this massive cybersecurity firm and they didn't do any, like, just 101 training on what makes for a good week. What do you do on a Monday? What do you do on a Friday? And so the first piece of advice was exactly what you're saying. Every single week on a Friday, take out your notes app or take out a running document and write down the things that you worked on. And the second thing, which I think is a great idea, is at the end of the week, send a short email to your boss and just say, these are all the things that I got done this week. These are the things that I'm still working on next week. Is there anything that's a higher strategic priority that you want me to focus on next week week? And what happens when you do that is now in one email, you've communicated everything you've done and you've recalibrated to see if there's Something strategic that is on your boss's mind that you now need to prioritize. And the third thing, and I heard this from somebody else, I can't remember who said this, it was at a big kind of conference that I was speaking at and I thought it was brilliant. If you solve a problem, and it could be anything, you could be working at a big box retailer and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work and so you use something else. If you solve a problem, send an email wide about what happened and how you solved it. Because then you become a person that has wider visibility of being somebody that's very proactive and it matters. And even if they don't promote you at your work, guess what? You now have a record of all this stuff for when you're interviewing. Which brings me to my big pivot. Let's talk about looking for a job, Professor Brooks, because right now you, you're at Harvard Business School and you got a lot of HBS students who are in the job market. And this is a conversation that's coming out where the news feels scary and AI is taking over jobs and people who are very qualified are having a hard time finding a job. And people that are just entering the job market or getting back into it are feeling very overwhelmed. There's so much more that we're gonna dig into, but I want, I want to give our amazing sponsors a chance to say a few words. So we're going to take a quick pause while you listen to our sponsors. Please be generous with the information that you're learning from. Professor Brooks. Share this as a free resource to the people that you care about and don't you dare go anywhere. We have a lot more that we're digging into, a lot more for us to learn. And we will be waiting for you after a short break. So stay with me. What would you do if you forgot what you couldn't do?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

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[Mel Robbins]

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[Alison Wood Brooks]

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[Mel Robbins]

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[Alison Wood Brooks]

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[Mel Robbins]

Welcome back. It's your buddy, Mel Robbins. And today you and I are learning from Harvard Business School Professor Alison Wood Brooks. So Professor Brooks, what do you see as some of the big mistakes that people make when they either start looking for a job or interviewing for one?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Ye having a hard time finding a job. You are not alone. This is a big problem right now. It's a big challenge. Even our students at HBS are struggling with this too. So you're not alone. Some of the biggest mistakes that I see people make on the job market is very similar to what we were talking about with promotions is focusing on how can I be the most interesting, qualified, exciting candidate? Rather than thinking what does this organization need? Need? What do they need and how can I fill that need? Right. So it's much more co created than how can I be my best self? Because just being your best self may not be at all what they're looking for. And almost any job that you find yourself in is going to require some flexibility for you to adapt to what they need from you. And so trying to figure that out a priori or before you do a job interview, before you interact with is so very valuable.

[Mel Robbins]

Let me back up a minute because I remember reading somewhere that 80% of open jobs aren't even listed and that most jobs are filled based on networking.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, I would believe that.

[Mel Robbins]

So Professor Brooks, how do you teach Harvard Business School students to be better networkers?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Oh, it's such a key. The keys to networking are the same as the keys to being a valuable person in the world, right? It's all about initiating and creating and sustaining meaningful relationships with people. It's not like a trick that you walk into some networking event and you're like, let me dazzle everybody. Let me be the coolest guy in the room. No, it's really figuring out what are they interested in, what are they excited about, what do they need right now and am I the right fit for that? What value can I bring to them? I remember a lot of my colleagues in grad school, when you go on the academic job market, they would go to these networking events and they'd be like, oh, I'm so nervous to talk to this person and so nervous. And I remember thinking, that's so interesting. Like all you really need to do is ask questions or think ahead. Oh, that person's working on this really interesting topic. Let me do a little bit of reading about that topic and brainstorm. What is that area missing and what could I fill for them? Do I know something about an interesting research methodology? Do I know someone else who's working on cool stuff that I could introduce them to? Really thinking ahead about what value you could actually bring to that person, then interacting with them is not nerve wracking because you're actually prepared and bringing value to them.

[Mel Robbins]

So if you were thinking about this from the standpoint of somebody who's just graduating from college and feels like they have nothing to offer, or somebody getting back into the workforce after taking time off, having kids or caring for an aging parent, or somebody that got laid off and now their confidence has taken a hit. So you're kind of at ground zero. You know what I mean? You're like on LinkedIn, you're who can I network with? You're going and sending things to alumni from your high school, school and your college. Is there something about networking that you want the person listening to really think about it differently? Because I do think when you're in that position where you don't have a job and you're like, where do I even begin? And my mom's telling me to reach out to this friend of hers that she knew five years ago and I don't even know what to say. And you don't know? No, you know, because I've been there. And you're just like, what the hell do I even say? Do you just come right out and say, I'm looking like, yes, yes, Professor Brooks, help me out here.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

There are a lot of so young people feel unqualified. You know, parents who have taken time off from the workforce and are going back feel unqualified, like they've like lost pace with technology or their skills are no longer relevant. There's so many people out there that feel like they're not qualified or like, what should I even say? Or am I? Can I be helpful to them? Here's my advice, and I really mean this. It is so much more rewarding to connect with people in person or on the phone than it is through a networking website or through LinkedIn or through. Which is valuable, very valuable. But a real human connection makes you so much more memorable to somebody. And when you go and have a coffee, chat with someone, don't go trying to impress them. Go. Because you're truly curious to find, like, learn from Them? What do they work on? What are their pain points? What are they struggling with? What do they love about them?

[Mel Robbins]

So start with the informational. Like, I'm looking for something. My mom, my dad, my neighbor, my roommate said you'd be a great person to talk to.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I don't even know if I would start with that. Male.

[Mel Robbins]

What would you start with?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I would start with, I am so curious about what you're. What you're doing is so amazing. I'm so intrigued by it. Can I have a five minutes of your time to just pick your brain? What are you struggling with? What do you love about this? What do you hate? Who do you love working with? What are you missing in your organization? Asking these questions with like, true sincere curiosity. You're going to learn so much. You're gonna feel very validated of like, oh, I am still relevant. You know why? Cause I'm good at asking these questions. I'm good at figuring out what people need.

[Mel Robbins]

So if I can extrapolate that. Because again, you're basically saying, just ask questions and be interested. And that's the opening for networking with somebody. Yeah. Because eventually, hopefully the person's gonna come back and be like, so what did you study in school? Or what kind of thing are you looking for?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, maybe they don't even need to know that you're looking for a job. Right. Just connect with people in an authentic way where you're and interested in what they're doing and figuring out what are they missing? What do they need? Do I know someone that could do that? Am I the right person to do that? Could I learn how to do that? Could I develop a new skill that makes me exactly what they're looking for? Probably.

[Mel Robbins]

What's a way to follow up with someone? So let's say you meet somebody at a barbecue. You end up asking a ton of questions. They're in a field that you're interested in because networking opportunities are everywhere.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Everywhere.

[Mel Robbins]

If you're willing to ask questions. But now it's time for the follow up. How do I do that without feeling annoying or like I'm stalking somebody or I'm being boring, like pushy?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Totally. Just now I just said, take five minutes of their time. I really mean it. You don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone. But what's key about even very short interactions to make them feel meaningful is the importance of follow up. There have been amazing research on this where they actually, there's a study of Entrepreneurs in Africa, where they. Part of what they taught them to do is just be more thorough about follow up.

[Mel Robbins]

What does thorough mean?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Like, anytime you have a meaningful conversation afterwards, like shoot him a text, say, that was really amazing. I feel really inspired. You're so incredible. Thank you. And I'll be in touch later. Just a quick affirmation to the other person of like, that was valuable to me. Thank you so much. I'll follow up. That's amazing, right? That you're giving them the affirmation they need. They took time out of their life. You're showing them gratitude. You could drop a little callback to something you talked about during the conversation. Hey, you mentioned that your daughter is in the tech industry, Right? Let me call back to that. I hope your daughter's doing. I hope your daughter's loving her tech job. Right. A quick callback can be. So it shows that you were listening to them, that you're interested, that you have interpersonal skills that you might be valuable to have in their organization.

[Mel Robbins]

How do you answer the question? Professor Brooks? So tell me about yourself in an interview. Seriously? Oh, because I'm always like, what do I mean? Like today, right now, I don't know, what do you want to know? My pant size, like what I have for breakfast?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I feel the same way. I feel the same way.

[Mel Robbins]

What's a way to answer that that's memorable and just kind of influential?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

If you want to. Okay, so first, to interviewers, that's not a great question. Stop asking that question. More concrete questions are much more interesting. But if you are going to stick with these sort of very abstract, open ended, broad questions like tell me about yourself, which we are all going to confront. I like to make it more confident, concrete in ways like, for example, if someone said, tell me about yourself, I'll say, I'm gonna share two things with you about my professional experience and then two things about my personal life.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, stop. I fricking love that. And we're all stealing that. I'm gonna share two things about my professional life and two things about my personal life.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. And they're gonna get a much more thorough view of who you are. And they don't need to be. You don't need to tell them, you know, that you've had STDs or whatever. But it's like you can tell them.

[Mel Robbins]

Unless you're at an STD clinic, which would make you very, like effective at counseling to people.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. But if you. Again, this is also topic prep, you can anticipate that when you go into a job interview, they're gonna ask you about yourself, about your work experience. What about your life makes you a valuable person here? So topic prep that. What are things that you've experienced professionally that will make you good in this role? What are things that are unique about you personally? When I wrote this book about something that I realized is I'm uniquely positioned to write this because I'm an identical twin. Of course, I'm, like, obsessed with humans. I'm obsessed with helping other people find this tight knit, shared reality that I have with my twin sister. So I should say that I need to say that in an interview on a podcast so that people understand who I am and why I'm a valuable person.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, let me tell you why we're all going to steal that answer of I'm gonna tell you two things about my professional life and two things that are personal. Number one, the framing immediately made you seem very smart and articulate and prepared. And the second thing that I loved about it is that if you're somebody who's nervous, it gives you a framework for you to prepare your answers. And when you say, I'm gonna do two professional and two personal, you're cueing yourself that you have these things to share, of course. And so I think that's genius. We better all steal it. And it brings me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is one of the single biggest obstacles to networking, to doing well on interviews, to negotiating. What happens if they do offer you the job, which we'll get to in a minute, is nerves. Like, you get so nervous about screwing it up that the nerves actually hijack your performance. And you have done groundbreaking research, research that I've been citing for over seven years, about the physiology of nerves. And a research back hack or reframe or whatever you want to call it. A tool that you can use in these moments where it's appropriate to feel nervous because you care, but you can't allow it to hijack your performance.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

That's right.

[Mel Robbins]

It saved my career. It's the thing that I use to overcome stage fright and become the most booked female speaker on the planet. And without this simple reframe, I never would have built the career that I have.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It means so much to me to hear that. Really? I use it too, but to hear it from people, I mean, Mel, that's incredible. Thank you.

[Mel Robbins]

No, thank you. So could you explain to the person listening what was the research that you did about the connection between nerves and excitement and how you can use the findings from your research in moments where you're nervous.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. So first of all, if you're feeling anxious, it's so good. It's so good. It is such a clear signal that you care about something. What's better than that about human existence? You care about something, and that's precious. So just keep that in mind. Feeling anxious means you care. The recipe for anxiety is uncertainty. You don't know what's gonna happen in the future. You don't know how this job interview's gonna go. You don't know how your work on the job is gonna go. Even in any conversation, I don't know what my partner's gonna say next. And they could say something tough. They could say something confusing. They could say something very unexpected. And I'm gonna have to respond to that.

[Mel Robbins]

Yep.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

So uncertainty is the first part of the recipe. The second part is lack of control. Lack of control and uncertainty create these feelings of anxiety. And that's what conversation is. You don't know what's coming next, and you don't have perfect control over what the other person is gonna say and do. So whether it's a job interview or networking or salary negotiation, whatever, of course you're gonna feel anxious. It's hard, and it's uncertain, and you don't have perfect control. So in my research, this was from more than a decade ago. It was my dissertation research, actually. When you're feeling anxious, I really wanted to help people figure out how to cope with it. It's not a problem. It's just a sign that you care about something and that you don't know how it's gonna go. And naturally, when people feel anxious, we're focusing on all the ways that things could go badly.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I start to stutter. I forget to say things. Something embarrassing. I seem incompetent. I don't get the math problems right. I don't. I. My voice cracks. Whatever you're freaked out about, you're thinking about how things can go badly.

[Mel Robbins]

Correct the threats.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

So in this research, what we found is a very simple reframe. When people feel anxious, their instinct is to try to calm down. All right.

[Mel Robbins]

Does that work?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

No, of course not. Anxiety is a high arousal emotion, which means you have increased cortisol. You're. Your palms are sweaty, your heart is racing. These are all physiological signals of high arousal. Right. Trying to make that go away and go down is so hard. Impossible. It's trying to control your body's natural reactions.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, so I want to put the person Listening at the scene. So if you're about to walk into the interview of your life, or you're about to walk into your annual review, or you're about to walk in and give the biggest presentation of your school career or your. Whatever, professional career, as you're pacing in the hallway and your armpits are like waterfalls, and your heart is racing and your throat is dry, and you feel the thump, thump, thump, thump, thump of your heart because you're about to go do this thing that you care about, and you wanna do it well, you're saying as you're pacing, don't go, calm down, calm down. It's gonna be fine. You're like, no.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And we do all these crazy things. We do rituals and we take a shot, or we drink the tea, or to try and calm down. It's like this desperate instinct of like, I know this isn't good. I need to calm down. Fruitless attempts to try and reduce those physiological symptoms, instead, let's try and take advantage of that energy, right? This is high energy. Because, you know this is important and you care about it, okay? So instead of trying to reduce your arousal and move to the positive zone, let's just move to the positive zone. Move from anxiety to excitement, and say, you know what? I'm aroused because I'm excited about this. And instead of thinking about the 100 ways that it could go wrong, I'm going to focus on how it could go. Well. We could have such a rewarding conversation. They could uncover the fact that I'm the perfect person for this job. We could have this conversation, and they say, you know what? You do deserve a great raise. We really value you here. We love having you. Things could go great. And so thinking about those goods and makes them more likely to actually happen.

[Mel Robbins]

So as you're pacing in the hallway and your heart is racing and your armpits are sweating and your palms are super clammy, how exactly does saying, I'm excited, I'm excited. I'm excited to give this presentation. I'm excited to ask for this raise. I'm excited to have this interview. How exactly does that work?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, when you say I'm excited, especially out loud to someone else, imagine you said, hey, Allison, how are you feeling about this interview? If I say, you know what? I'm really excited about it. I think it's an amazing opportunity, and I just can't wait to make them fall in love with me. Wow. That changes how you will actually behave.

[Mel Robbins]

Even though you feel like having stress, diarrhea, and you wanna run away.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

You know what's so funny, Mel? Tell me. When I teach, I've done this reframe for so many. For almost 15 years, in my mind, my body still has these physiological reactions. And a lot of people who teach at Harvard have it too. You can't sleep the night before. You have the racing heart. You get the sweaty palms, you get the indigestion. It's just that in your mind, you're flipping from negative to positive. I know all those things are happening in my body because I care about this. And it's an uncertain environment. I don't know how my students are going to react. I don't have perfect control over what they say and do. But what I do have control over is how I think about it.

[Mel Robbins]

That's amazing. And didn't you also, in the research, find that when you tested the reframe of saying, I'm excited, I'm excited. Excited that people performed better?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Oh, yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

Because they didn't derail their preparation. Because if you get yourself so worked up before a speech or an interview or a talk with your boss, all the preparation goes out the window. If you stress yourself out too much by going, I'm gonna blow it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, I've got butterflies.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

You're wasting that very valuable prep time on trying to calm down. Instead of using that prep time to think about the other person and say, what does success look like here? What are we aiming for? What are my goals? What are their goals? How can I make this go well? That's how you should be using that preparation time.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, you know what's also cool is that typically in those situations when we're nervous and we get the butterflies and we start to feel anxious, and then you start to think about all the things that could go wrong, you think something's wrong, you're actually saying, no, no, no, no. This is a mentally healthy response to being in a situation when you care about the outcome.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It's mentally healthy. And it's so common. Like, we all feel that way. We're human beings. That's how our bodies were built to react to any situation where there's unce and a lack of control.

[Mel Robbins]

So interesting. Are there any rules of thumb, Professor Brooks, where you've gone through the process of networking and getting an interview and now you've got the final interview? Is there anything that you should say at the end of the final interview that actually helps you land the job? Like, should you ask for it? Should you. Like, what is the Is there anything in the research around negotiation?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

There's great power in expressing gratitude to people. So if you've gone through a process where you've networked and you've met lots of people and you've had all these conversational interviews and you've clearly taken a lot of people's time. Right. Any conversation is co constructed, it's co created. It means that other people are devoting their time and attention to you, including a job interview. These are people that have jobs to do and they're spending some of their time getting to know you and evaluating. And even though that feels daunting from your perspective, it's also quite generous from them. And so saying thank you so much no matter what happens. I've really loved getting to know you and learning from you. That's a very appropriate thing, very kind thing to say to them. That will land very well.

[Mel Robbins]

So, Professor Brooks, if you take into account like the decade of research that you've done on the science of conversation, teaching two of the most popular courses at Harvard Business School, what do you think is the most important lesson or piece of research or behavior change that the person listening should take away of everything that you shared today that would have the biggest impact on their confidence and their ability to communicate and be influential?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Don't aim for perfection. Don't aim to be trying to prove how great you are to other people. People aim for connection. Think about what other people need and then deliver it to them to the best of your ability.

[Mel Robbins]

You know, maybe it's all the training as a lawyer, but I've always thought about negotiation as making a case.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

I know.

[Mel Robbins]

And winning.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, not winning.

[Mel Robbins]

You just flipped it all in its head. It's actually about prioritizing the other person and figuring out what they and then reframing what you need and want from their point of view.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

If the more people that you can give what they need, the more people there are in the world who are poised and ready and excited to give you what you need back.

[Mel Robbins]

Wow, it's so counterintuitive. No wonder you have to go to Harvard to learn this. I guess not though, because you just shared it for free. Here on the Mel Robbins Podcast, Professor Alison Wood Brooks, the book is the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Congratulations on it being a bestseller. What are your parting words?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

My parting words? In the course that I teach called Talk, we use a metaphor. If you think of every relationship in your life as a sort of string that starts at hello and goes all the way until the end of your relationship or even the end of your life. We like to think of every conversation along that string as like a light bulb, like a cafe light, those beautiful strings of lights. The goal is to make each one of those conversations glow just a little bit brighter and imagine how much we could light up the world one conversation at a time.

[Mel Robbins]

I love that. And the reason why I love that is because I think, particularly if you're taking this advice and you're trying to apply, apply it to creating more meaningful career, feeling like you're more influential, feeling like your contributions get recognized, whether it's at home or at school or in the workplace or in your business, you can get very discouraged if you get to one light bulb that doesn't light up. And I love that image because if you're at a moment where you feel like you've gotten a lot of no's or closed doors, those actually are light bulbs on the string. And your job is to just keep going to the next one and trust that eventually you're gonna get to the one that shines super bright.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And some of them will brown out, some of them will explode, some of them will never light up at all. But just know that in the future there are more light bulbs to come. And just keep aiming, Just keep trying. Try, try, try to get them to glow a little bit brighter.

[Mel Robbins]

Wow. Wow. Professor Allison Wood Brooks, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Thank you, Mel.

[Mel Robbins]

And thank you for being here, for investing in yourself, for sharing this. I know you're going to share this with a ton of people. And I also know that everything that you learned today from all this research at Harvard Business School is going to help you be more influential. It's going to help you nail the interviews and do the networking. Because you do deserve to have a career that makes you proud of yourself. And now you got some of the tools that are going to help you go create it. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. Now take everything that Allison Wood Brooks taught you today and go make it happen. Alrighty. I'll be waiting for you in the van. Very next episode. As soon as you hit play. I'll see you there. That was so good. Because it was so counterintuitive.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not a normal Harvard professor, so.

[Mel Robbins]

If you're a shift worker. Hold on a second. She's also a best selling author, a behavioral thought. Oh, my God. God. Oh, my God. Exact techniques that will help you master the art of Kim. After today, you're going to learn the exact techniques that can help you master the art of cr. Oh, my God. So, without further ado, please help me welcome. Oh, my God. Fantastic. Okay, great. That's a wrap.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

This is so fun, you guys. I can't believe this is what you get to do.

[Mel Robbins]

It is kind of crazy we get to do this.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

It's such a privilege. And it's such a privilege to be here. I'm so, so grateful.

[Mel Robbins]

All right, everybody. Professor Brooks. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

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