Logan Urie (8:06)

Yay. I'm so excited to be here.

Mel Robbins (8:08)

I am so excited to talk to you because there are so many people in my life, so many different ages, different circumstances, that are frustrated with dating, with relationships. This is your area of expertise. And one of the reasons why I'm thrilled that you made the trip all the way across the country to our studios here in Boston, is because you can marry. No pun intended. The data and science from all of the experience that you have working at Hinge for the last five years, with all the expertise that you have in coaching people when they're single and dating, and I just cannot wait to jump into this. So I want to start here. Logan, could you just talk directly to the person listening and tell them exactly what they might experience in their life and what could change if they take to heart absolutely everything that you're about to share with us today, and they put it to use.

Logan Urie (9:07)

So for the listener or viewer who is single, this is really an opportunity to get unstuck. If you feel like all of your friends are married and you've been to a lot of weddings and now you're going to the baby showers and you feel like you're being left behind, this is an Opportunity to really take a step back, look at the patterns of behavior that you have, identify some dating blind spots, and then make a different choice for yourself. And if you are married or in a relationship, then you probably have someone you love who could really use this advice.

Mel Robbins (9:40)

And in terms of I'm thinking about my best friend from childhood who you're going to hear from in a little bit, who is in her 50s, never married, never found love. Like, we'll get together and we'll down a bottle of wine, and next thing you know, she's crying because this is not how she wanted her life to turn out. What do you want? Someone who is either post divorce or they have never met the person and they're in their late 40s or 50s or 60s or 70s.

Logan Urie (10:12)

So I have a different answer for that than I would have had a year ago. So my research has mostly focused on millennial and Gen Z dating, and that's really the focus of Hinge. But then a year ago, I shot this TV show that's going to come out soon about daters over 55.

Mel Robbins (10:28)

Oh.

Logan Urie (10:29)

And I had some nerves going into it because I was like, oh, I'm not an expert in this type of dating, but the number one thing that came out of that for me is this idea that dating is a skill. And we're born knowing how to love but not knowing how to date.

Mel Robbins (10:44)

That right there. We are born knowing how to love but not knowing how to date. So is it safe to assume that if you're divorced or you're in your 50s and you're not having luck, you absolutely are born knowing how to love, but you just don't know how to date?

Logan Urie (11:01)

Sure. And some of those people might know how to date, but it's just that there's a limited pool. You know, there's other factors. But I really want it to be empowering for people because I want them to feel like, oh, yeah, I do keep choosing men who are not emotionally available or I am really hesitant to get vulnerable with people. And I could work on that. And so something that I learned by working on this show is the idea that dating is a skill and you can get better at it. And just because you get older doesn't mean you automatically know how to do it. So it's like you don't wake up on your 50th birthday and know how to make a delicious French meal. You don't wake up on your 50th birthday and know how to date. And so actually just taking this approach of this is hard for me. I've struggled with this. This is an area of my life I haven't figured out, but I can work on it. I hope that for your friend and for other people, that's really empowering because it means it's an area where they can grow.

Mel Robbins (11:51)

Awesome. So for anyone that's listening that may not be familiar with your work, could you just share with the person that is spending some time with us right now just a little bit about your background, both at Hinge and what you do there and how that's informed your work? Coaching people in their love life and with dating?

Logan Urie (12:14)

Sure. So I studied psychology at Harvard, and I'm really interested in how people think and how people make decisions. So at first I applied that in the corporate world, and I worked at Google, and I ran Google's behavioral science team called the Irrational Lab. So that's really understanding who we are and how we make decisions, often in ways that are not in our own best interest. But then I'd always had this lifelong interest in dating and relationships. And so at a certain point, I said, this is my dream. I'm not getting any younger. And so I quit my corporate job, which was at the time at Airbnb, and I said, I'm just going to give myself a year to see if I can make this into a career. And so I started by being a coach and working with people one on one. I turn that into research for my book. And what my book does, it takes the best of the behavioral science research how we make decisions, and the best of the relationship science research why we love who we love, how relationships work. And I combine the two. And so it's really a relationship book that's focused on the best research and data that's out there. And then from there, I got my job at Hinge, where I'm the director of relationship science. And I get to do this all day. I get to think about dating, research, dating, look at trends and dating, and then talk directly to Hinge users and daters around the world about how to date better.

Mel Robbins (13:35)

I was really excited to talk to you because you have a extremely unique blend of skill sets. When you think about being at Google and Airbnb and a psychology degree from Harvard, and all of this experience coaching people both privately in terms of dating and being single and finding the kind of love that they deserve, and also for the last five years, being in this unique role at Hinge, where you have access to all the behind the scenes of how people are using the apps, what the trends are. And I just could not wait to dig into this because I have so many people in my life that are really struggling. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is, do you think that dating apps are helping people find love and make connection, or are they really contributing to a sense of dissatisfaction?

Logan Urie (14:29)

So the data shows that dating apps really are helping people meet. Since 2017, the number one way that couples meet is online, and that's research from Stanford. Michael J. Rosenfeld is a sociologist there. That being said, of course, this is technology, and people can misuse technology, and I think it really can create some difficult expectations for people. There's a paradox of choice issue. And so I would say, overall, way more people are meeting because of dating apps. It used to be that you had access to Bill and Belinda down the street or, you know, maybe the person that you worked with, and now you have access to a way larger pool of people.

Mel Robbins (15:09)

Right.

Logan Urie (15:09)

And that's especially helpful if you're in what's called a thin dating market.

Mel Robbins (15:13)

So we're meeting people. Thin dating.

Logan Urie (15:15)

Yeah. So it's like, it's not about your weight. It's about, like, the quantity of your pool. And so people over 40, LGBTQ + folks, and people who live in rural areas, it's like, well, if I'm gay and I live in a small town, how do I know who's also gay and who's single? It's very helpful to be on hinge to do that. And so it has a lot of benefits for expanding choice. But then people also do struggle with choice.

Mel Robbins (15:40)

Got it. What's interesting to me, because I'm thinking about this as A woman who's 56, I've been married for 28 years, and I often think, thank God I am not single and in my 20s, thank God Chris is still alive and I'm not post divorce or post death. And I'm out there alone because I think I would absolutely implode if I were putting myself out there. And I'm sure you're going to tell me otherwise, but here's one thing I've noticed. I've noticed that, yes, almost most of the people that I know, especially in their 30s, met online. But most of the people that I know, men and women in their 20s, are feeling extremely discouraged about online. I know more Women in their 20s in New York who are literally off the apps. They've just had it. And so is that just my group of people, or are you seeing that this was a really good thing and now it's become really overwhelming because of the amount of choice and because of the way it may have changed the culture around dating.

Logan Urie (16:54)

Yeah. So everything you're seeing, I'm seeing as well. One thing that I will point out, though, is the average age of getting married is around the country, more like later 20s. So it makes sense that you. The people you know in their 30s are married to people who they met on the apps. The people in their 20s will probably be that one day. They're just not there yet. So I think there are kind of micro differences. But most people in the US do end up getting married, and so that's one thing. But what I'll say is that I do feel like a lot of people are having a hard time right now. And I'm hearing a lot about dating burnout. And I've just been noticing this from a psychological perspective where multiple people, even in the last week have told me, I quit dating. I'm taking a break from dating. And when I hear that, I'm like, that's a new phrase that popped up recently. And I like to reflect back on Sex in the City because I think it was such a cultural touch. What's the word? Cultural touch point.

Mel Robbins (17:49)

You're going to pick a better word than I am. I don't know. A culture. Yeah, it literally. It was one of those series that was extraordinarily resonant.

Logan Urie (17:58)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (17:59)

Of women's experiences in New York. And I feel that there is another very significant thing happening, at least with the women that are in their 20s that I know that live in New York or Chicago or la. Notice I'm saying big cities.

Logan Urie (18:18)

So what I notice, I like to look back at Sex in the City because it's obviously pre apps. And even looking at girls, which is also mostly pre apps, I think you can find that people in New York were struggling with dating in their 20s. And so I think there's an interesting thing going on where things that have always been hard about dating, like, I didn't hear back from this person. The person I like doesn't like me back. I don't know how to tell someone that I like them without fear of rejection. Those are part of dating culture. But right now, dating culture is being equated with dating apps. And so some things that are hard about dating and have always been hard about dating are being blamed on the technology.

Mel Robbins (18:59)

Oh, okay. This is a really huge point. And I want to take out a highlighter and I want to make sure that as you're listening to this, whether this is relevant to you or one of your parents or friends sent this to you, and now you're listening to this because it's relevant to you or somebody that you love. You are right. You are absolutely right. And so I want you to separate the psychology of dating and the stuff that's been going on forever. People were ghosting people before we had a word for it.

Logan Urie (19:32)

Yeah, it's called, he didn't call me back.

Mel Robbins (19:33)

He doesn't like me. She doesn't like you. So there is say the three things again, because this is part of the psychology of really liking someone and them not liking you back. It's also the psychology of meeting another human being and having expectations about how it's supposed to go and then it not meeting them. So you said three things. There was that they don't like you back, they don't call you back and all of a sudden disappear, and that it's hard to meet somebody that you connect with. And that's been true forever.

Logan Urie (20:05)

Yeah. And so the reason why I've been thinking about this lately is I've been doing I love Reddit. And so I was reading a lot on Reddit about people going to IRL dating events. Right. That's very popular in real life. In real life dating events. So this person wrote, oh, yeah, I went to that speed dating event, but everyone was just focused on a couple hot people. It felt like online dating. And that was kind of an aha moment for me because how I would have written that is this reflects how dating is in general, which is a lot of people are all interested in the same attractive person. But for that person, who I presume is younger than me, they thought this is similar to online dating. And so it really was that moment for me of, oh, people of this generation, let's talk about Gen Z, are really equating everything that's hard about dating in general with dating apps. And I think that's really interesting because there was an article in the Atlantic by Faith Hill a few months ago called people are nostalgic for a time of dating that never existed. It's true. So it's like if there were no apps, things would be so much better. Or everything was great before we had texts. And it's like, no, dating is always really hard. It's like, this is who I am as a person. You are going to evaluate me and decide if you want to be with me or not. It doesn't matter what technology you're using. It just hurts to be rejected.

Mel Robbins (21:24)

Yes.

Logan Urie (21:24)

And so I definitely Think people are having a hard time right now. There's burnout. There's a lot of things that are challenging. But I also want people to know that that is a part of putting yourself out there and risk being rejected. And some of it is the tech, but a lot of it is just human nature.

Mel Robbins (21:40)

That's true. The thing I will push back on just a little is that I think one of the things that the technology has done that is fantastic is it's opened you up to a world of options and people and all of these choices so that you can meet people that aren't just in your friend group or aren't just one friend removed or aren't at the building that you're working in, which is a wonderful thing. But it has also trained people to believe there's someone else out there and that maybe there's someone better. And so I think it has magnified the inconsiderate behavior and the immature behavior and some of the toxic behavior that has always been part of dating. It just happens more because of the fact that people have other options. And so I do think that it's a convergence of both of those. And I'm glad that you said it, Logan, because it really validates for somebody. It's not just me.

Logan Urie (22:39)

Oh, no. People are having a hard time. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins (22:41)

And I. I'm really glad that you separated the app itself.

Logan Urie (22:44)

Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins (22:45)

From actual behavior that you're going to have to learn and build skills around to tolerate rejection and to also learn how to really choose the kind of love and relationship that you want. That if somebody's not treating you the way that you would like to be treated, why would you want to be with them? And you've got to learn to see it not as an indictment that dating is horrific, that this is just one more person that doesn't deserve to be in your life because they're not treating you the way that you deserve to be treated.

Logan Urie (23:18)

So what you said reminded me of this really helpful term, which is that researchers used to refer to relationshiping, which is the experience of going from meeting a new person and having that turn into a romantic relationship. And now they refer to relation shopping, which is shopping for a potential partner the way that you would shop for any other product. And so if you were shopping for Bluetooth headphones, you might say, how much do they weigh? How long is the battery life? How much do they cost? And then you'd look for something online that meets those specs. And people sometimes try to do that with online dating, but People are not digital goods. People are not things that are just a combination of all of their different traits. Right. That's why matchmaking is so hard. That's why finding your person is so hard. Because we're so much more than our height, our weight, our religion and things like that. And it's really, when I am in front of you on a date, what side of me do you bring out? What's the dynamic between the two of us? And so really, a lot of the work I try to do with my clients is moving people away from relation shopping and have them actually tune into how do I feel when I'm around the person. What side of me do they bring out? And moving from the checklist mindset to really an experiential mindset of how does it feel to be with that person.

Mel Robbins (24:40)

I love that you're sharing this. And one of my missions in this episode is to really get the person listening to understand there's a difference between using the app to facilitate meeting people and what actually happens when you start meeting people. And it brings to mind something that I wanted to talk to you about. It was something that I saw Professor Scott Galloway say, who is a professor of marketing at NYU Stern School of Business. He's a podcaster, bestselling author. I'm a big fan of his and I saw him speaking at this event. He was on stage. And what he basically said is that dating has been consolidated in the worst way. He says, when you have 50 men on Tinder and 50 women, 46 of the women show all their attention to just four men, which basically means we have this concentration of interest. And you end up with situations where only 10% of the men are getting 90% of the attention. And as a mom of two daughters in their 20s, I often hear the complaining by the women using the apps. But I'm also the mother of a 19 year old son and it never even occurred to me, wait a minute, like all the short guys are getting like just completely wiped off the side. Everybody's going for the same people's profiles online. And I would imagine that since dating apps and just everybody stop and think about this. Dating apps are providing a platform for you to meet somebody. But the people that show up on the dating apps, they have preferences and unconscious bias and probably ridiculous expectations and closed minds. And so I would imagine that you're seeing this everywhere, that there's this concentration of interest. And you said it about the bar too, that if you think about going to a bar on a Friday night, people Go and notice like three or four people. And they're the same people that everybody's eyeing up and down and wishing they could go up and talk to. Same thing happens on the apps. And I would imagine you're seeing this both men, women, whether or not you're somebody who is lbgtq, whether or not you are black, you're Hispanic, whether or not you're a certain religion, that it's the behavior of the people and their bias and preference that actually drives a lot of this too.

Logan Urie (27:11)

So a metaphor that I find helpful here is to think about your dating app and who you see on Hinge as a club, like a nightclub.

Mel Robbins (27:19)

Okay.

Logan Urie (27:20)

And then the way that you set your filters is the bouncer for the club. And so when people go on and they make their profile, they're not thinking that hard about it. They're just like, oh, six feet or taller. Sure, if that sounds great, I'd love to meet a six foot guy. And then they put that as their filter. And then suddenly they're like, why is there no one in my club? Where are all the guys? And it's like, well, you filtered out 86% of men who are under 6ft tall, and now you're wondering why I'm having a hard time. And so people are creating really harsh filters and then not seeing a bunch of people.

Mel Robbins (27:51)

I bet you see this across every single thing, whether it's religion or race or sexual preference or what city. And you have people have these ridiculous expectations that then wipe out. And then that actually not only changes what you see, but it changes like the data that you guys are getting. So it's the user behavior.

Logan Urie (28:09)

So it's definitely related to filters because I had a post on Instagram about how women are filtering out short guys. And then the guys complain and they're like, yes, I'm being filtered out. And then the women's complain and they're like, well, you have really harsh age filters and you're filtering out women under 35 or whatever they say. And so it's definitely happening across the board because people are really having these bouncers that are not letting anyone into the club. So for the singles party that I had, it was a straight dating event. 27 women, 27 men. And when they came together, 70 dates came out of it. Because you could match with more than one person.

Mel Robbins (28:46)

Yep. And then afterwards, was anyone left with a no?

Logan Urie (28:49)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (28:49)

Oh, that's so harsh.

Logan Urie (28:51)

I hate that it was hard. Oh, but there were other resources for them to go to more events.

Mel Robbins (28:56)

Okay. So, oh, my God. I just, like, want to die for that person right now. Okay. But you're not going to die alone. That's the title.

Logan Urie (29:02)

I'm not going to die.

Mel Robbins (29:02)

Okay, so you have this dating event.

Logan Urie (29:03)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (29:04)

27 people, 70 matches.

Logan Urie (29:06)

Oh, yeah. 54 people, 70 matches. And then afterwards, I sent them all a survey, and I said, the person who you matched with, would you have said yes to them on a dating app? And many people said no. Oh, not because I wouldn't have been interested in them, but they wouldn't have shown up on my app in the first place. They would have been filtered out by age, height, religion, or how far they live from me. And this is such an important point for people to realize is that if you were at a bar and you sat across from a guy and you had an amazing conversation, or a gal. Or a gal, he had the cutest.

Mel Robbins (29:38)

Face, or are they.

Logan Urie (29:38)

She had a cutest face, they had the cutest face, and you had a great conversation, and then they stood up and their body type or their height was different from what you expected, you'd likely still want to see them again.

Mel Robbins (29:49)

Yes.

Logan Urie (29:49)

But when you set your filters to really make it so strict and to have this bouncer keep them out of your club, you're not even getting the chance to meet them in the first place.

Mel Robbins (29:59)

I love this analogy. So what is the specific advice to the person listening? Do you just remove all filters? Like, what do you recommend that someone do if you're in that camp where you're frustrated and you're blaming the algorithm, but you haven't actually ever looked at your own filters?

Logan Urie (30:15)

So my old advice for this used to be to expand your filters and to get less picky.

Mel Robbins (30:21)

So that's not what we should do.

Logan Urie (30:22)

Well, in my dating class, I realized that a percentage of the population is also not picky enough. So for the majority of people, how.

Mel Robbins (30:30)

The hell do I know?

Logan Urie (30:32)

It basically is things like, do you feel like you have too many options and that you're getting overwhelmed and is that leading to burnout? Or do you consistently feel like you're holding up your phone saying, where's my wife? Where's my husband? Where's my significant other? I don't have enough matches.

Mel Robbins (30:46)

Got it.

Logan Urie (30:47)

And it also is a mindset shift. Where are you somebody who's constantly finding flaws in other people? Or are you someone who keeps saying things like, well, they didn't treat me that well, but they pursued me? But most people I work with do tend to be on the too picky side. And for them, I would say if you remove all filters, that's going to be chaotic. But look at your age filters. Can you go up a little bit in the maximum? Can you go down a little bit in the minimum? Look at your geography filter. Can you make that broader? What are other ways that you're filtering people out? And can you actually focus less on that and focus more on the things that really matter?

Mel Robbins (31:25)

And for the people that feel like they're not picky enough, but they're just, like, overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. Overwhelmed and really bummed by the choices, what is the advice there?

Logan Urie (31:36)

So one thing that we found in our research at Hinge that I use a lot in my coaching is that when women feel very overwhelmed, it's often because they don't feel like they're in the driver's seat of their dating life. And so they say, oh, yeah, I don't comment on anyone's photos. I don't send any likes. Why would I? I'm getting so many incoming messages. And then I say to them, that's like saying, oh, I really want to find my dream job. But I'm only responding to the LinkedIn messages that recruiters are sending me. No one has ever gotten their dream job by waiting for an incoming message from a recruiter. You have to go out and look for it. And so what we found in our research is that the more that you're in the driver's seat, the more that you feel like you are pursuing people and that you're going after what you want, the less burned out you feel.

Mel Robbins (32:21)

Oh, that's incredible. I need to make sure that you just heard that. The more that you put yourself in the driver's seat by commenting, by pursuing people that you're interested in or potentially interested in, by talking to people in real life, the less burnt out you're going to be, and I would imagine the more likely you're going to actually meet somebody that you can have a meaningful relationship with. This brings me to a question that I got from a listener named Hannah. She is 28 years old. And the question is, in my experience, it seems like whenever you go out in public, everyone, men and women, only hang out with their friend group. No one is branching out. No one is walking up to people to say hello. No one is interested in meeting new people. Is this true or is this just me?

Logan Urie (33:09)

So this is something that I started noticing around 10 years ago, where people feel like they want to date on their phone. And one of the main reasons is I know who's single, I know who might be interested. And if the person rejects me, it's way easier to just not hear back from someone than to have someone to your face say, I'm not interested.

Mel Robbins (33:27)

Well, I actually would take this a step deeper. The reason why it's easier to do this on your phone is because you don't have to deal with any of the psychological friction of walking up to a stranger in a bar and striking up a conversation. And so there's an active avoidance. See, I don't. I don't think that. That people want to necessarily be on the phone. I think we've trained ourselves to default to the easier thing. When I read Hannah's thing, and I'm going to, like, echo exactly what you've been saying is that, you know, no one is interested in meeting new people in real life. Is this true? Is it just me? I would say, yes, it's true. And it's you. And this ends the second you push yourself to turn and talk to people in real life.

Logan Urie (34:14)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (34:15)

That again, the fact that the apps are out there, they facilitate connection. But if you're not actually talking to and striking up conversation with and talking to people in real life that you're drawn to, then you're, in my opinion, not actually dating. You're being lazy. You're sitting around hoping the app is going to facilitate this when you've got to be an active participant in creating the thing that you want. And the truth is there's people all around you, not just on your phone. But it is scary to walk up to somebody. It's awkward to strike up the conversation. And if you're not in the mode of just casually talking to people that you find kind of interesting, you're never going to do it because you've got the easier option. You know, one of the questions that I was curious about is what, Logan, are some of the most common patterns that people of all ages fall into when it comes to dating and, you know, being online and how can they start breaking them?

Logan Urie (35:12)

Yeah. So one thing I do want to say to Hannah is that's absolutely what I'm seeing in general. And I feel this is something that we've really seen in our hinge research on Gen Z. And so I did a bunch of research with Gen Z. And if you look online, there's a lot of things about how they love dark humor and they're very nihilistic. And so I thought, oh, they're the most pragmatic generation. They're not going to be that romantic. But that's not what we found. We found that Gen z was actually 39% more likely than millennials to say that they believe in a soulmate and that there's one person out there for you. So we have this generation that's very idealistic and looking for their own rom com, yet at the same time, they're crippled by their fear of rejection. And this was made even worse by the pandemic. And there's lots of research to support this that they weren't having in person conversations. They weren't dealing with conflict face to face. And so they want love. But many of them say that they're not willing to put themselves out there because of fear of rejection.

Mel Robbins (36:11)

Well, how the hell are you going to meet somebody if you won't put yourself out?

Logan Urie (36:13)

Exactly. And it doesn't matter if you first met on an app or if you first met through friends. Once you're on the date, you're on the date. Who cares how you met? And you need to have hard conversations. Who are you? What are you looking for? And so I really feel like something that I'm nervous about for people in the future is if you won't take risks, if you're not willing to put yourself out there and get rejected, how are you ever going to get what you want?

Mel Robbins (36:37)

Do you see this with both men and women?

Logan Urie (36:41)

Oh, yeah. This research was really across all genders, and we found that a lot of people are holding themselves back. 56% of people are not pursuing a particular romantic interest because of fear of rejection.

Mel Robbins (36:54)

Wow. Even though they want it.

Logan Urie (36:56)

Yes. Because. Do you know Sherry Turkle? She's a Harvard professor and she's been studying online behavior for a long time. And so I spoke to her about 10 years ago, and she just talked about the fact that, um, people now don't know how to have these hard conversations. They don't know how to apologize in person. They don't have to face the consequences. And I think that it's having a lot of impacts both in terms of things like ghosting, where you can really leave someone hanging and you don't have to deal with their hurt feelings. But then also in not taking a.

Mel Robbins (37:28)

Risk, I think this not taking a risk is a much bigger thing.

Logan Urie (37:32)

Me too.

Mel Robbins (37:33)

And for women in particular, if you look back at just sort of the messaging of Prince Charming coming and being rescued and finding your soulmate, there is this illusion that someone else is going to pick you and what you're saying over and over and over again, especially to women. But this Goes to you guys, too, that there is an essential part of being willing to put yourself out there. And look, I know it takes a lot to get yourself on the apps and put yourself out there, but there is a part in real life that you need to be doing at the same time when you bump into somebody that's really interesting, regardless of your age, regardless of your gender. You know, one other thing I wanted to just quickly ask you about is that I've also noticed this trend of kids that go to college and stay with their high school sweetheart. And that almost like one of the things that my daughter said, it wasn't only in college, but now that they're out of college, she said so many of her friends are so discouraged by the dating that they've gone back to an ex that they know. I'm wondering if you're just seeing anything in your research like that, too.

Logan Urie (38:50)

I haven't specifically heard that, but that is something where I would really recommend that the person take a look at their own behavior and really do a relationship audit and sit there and say, who are the people I've dated in the past? What were they like? What did I like about that relationship? What did I not like? What side of me did they bring out? What do I want to take forward into the future, and what do I want to do differently? And then really use that to make more informed choices in the future. And, of course, sometimes exes get back together. But I feel like reading between the lines of your questions, it's not necessarily that this was such a good match for them. It was more that it's safer and it's something that they already know. And so for those people, I would say, are you doing the safe thing? And how can you actually use your 20s as a time of experimentation? And that's one of the things I say over and over to people is date like a scientist. A scientist has a hypothesis, and then they test it, and they're willing to be proven right or wrong. And I feel like a lot of times people just come to me and they say, logan, I know exactly what I want. I want a five, six, skinny redhead. Help me find her. And I was like, you think you know what you want, but you're wrong. Let's actually experiment, and why don't you date someone totally different and see how that feels? I do that for women who are obsessed with dating tall guys. I'm like, go on some date with some short guys and see how it feels. And so for your daughter's friends and for Anyone listening? What are the assumptions you're making about who you want to be with and how can you actually test that by dating other types of people. And so often with my clients, they'll come to me and they'll say, you know, I went on this date and he's not really my type. And in my head I hear, ding, ding, ding. Because I'm like, yeah, your type hasn't been serving you. Let's see who this person is. And maybe that's who you're going to end up with. And for me, do you think that my type was a 5 foot 8, red headed, vegan engineer?

Mel Robbins (40:43)

Is that your husband you're describing? Yes. That's okay. I'm like, okay, I'm feeling like there is a theme here.

Logan Urie (40:48)

I'm just saying it's like the person I dated a lot of people, the person who made me happiest in my life, is someone who has an opposite personality from me, has different interests than me, but we just share a sense of humor. He's so smart. I love his advice. I really admire him. And so I think when people get so stuck on this checklist and these superficial qualities, they're actually missing out on a lot of essential pieces.

Mel Robbins (41:12)

Well, what I love about this conversation is that it's super easy to blame the app. And I'm not saying dating culture isn't toxic and become even more so and commoditized. But what I do agree with is that you got to take a look.

Logan Urie (41:26)

At yourself a hundred percent.

Mel Robbins (41:28)

And there are ways in which you're being unrealistic. You're filtering out people, you're not open, and you're also not behaving consistent with what you want off the app. And so I love that you keep coming back to that. I am already learning so much and I'm starting to think about this completely differently. I'm sure you are too. As you're listening to all of this advice and her perspective. We're going to hit pause and give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words. But please share this with everyone in your life who needs to hear this, which is basically everybody who's single and who's dating and who's frustrated. And when we return, we're going to dig right back into the data and the science. So don't you dare go anywhere. I'll be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with me. You know that look on your loved one's face when you give them a present and they unwrap it and you're like, boom, I knocked it out of the park. Because they're going to be bragging about the gift you gave them for years. They're going to use it and you can tell they just love it. Well, I want that sense of pride and excitement for you every time you give a gift to every person on your list this year. And here's the cool part. You don't have to visit a million stores to do it. You can be the best gift giver this season with Walmart. Walmart has tons of gifts for every person in your life. From tech and gadgets to cool new clothes to home must haves they'll actually use. Shop for gifts at Walmart and give the gifts that show you get them. And the best part, you can get them at Walmart prices. Whether it's the Keurig they've wanted or the new Lego set or that awesome Ninja Creamy ice cream maker everyone's talking about. Or give them something that will help create lasting memories like a 16 inch Barbie bike or Roku Stream Bar SE. If you enjoy finding the right thing for the right person, head to Walmart. Give the gifts that show you get them at Walmart. Oh, I'm so excited to tell you about one of our sponsors, Aura Frames. I love them. Why? Because like me, you probably took a million photos this year. Oakley graduated from high school. Chris and I went on this unforgettable vacation together. Our family climbed Mount Katahdin. Where are the photos? Normally they'd be on my phone, but not anymore. Why? I have an Aura digital photo frame. It sits on my kitchen counter. I gave one to my parents. It's on their kitchen counter. I gave it to Kendall who lives in la. Oakley up in his dorm room. Aura is a digital frame that looks and feels like a normal picture frame. But check this out. You just send photos to it and all of a sudden your photos are right there everywhere. And it updates all the time. And your family can update it. I freaking love it. It's the best gift to give yourself. It's the best gift to give to everyone else. And for a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's bestselling Carver Matte Frames by using the code MEL at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code MEL. This exclusive black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year. So don't you dare miss out. Terms and conditions apply. I got a little secret that could totally transform your mornings rise. Mushroom coffee. I know how Much you love your coffee. But let me tell you, Rise is unlike regular coffee. Rise Mushroom Coffee helps you stay energized and focused while supporting your overall well being so you can embrace the day. Rise Mushroom Coffee is a custom, powerful blend of six functional mushrooms that helps with all day energy, sharper focus, healthy digestion and immune support. And with over 150,000 five star reviews, you likely won't be disappointed. I know what you're thinking, Mel. Does mushroom coffee taste like mushrooms? No, it tastes like coffee. It tastes like productivity. It tastes like it's a great day to have a great day. Rise gives me the energy and focus I need without the crash or jitters of regular coffee. Total win. Check out Rise Mushroom coffee and get 15% off your first order at risesuperfoods.com Melrobbins that's R Y Z E superfoods.com MelrobbINS don't just wake up. Awaken with Rise. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today you and I are getting all the research back and data supported advice that we need for ourselves and the people that we love who are single and dating and frustrated. We're changing that with Logan Urie. So Logan, you know you write about, and I've heard you mention before, that this idea that the instant spark is a myth. Can you explain why our obsession with the instant chemistry and the soulmate might be holding someone back from finding their partner?

Logan Urie (45:54)

Yeah. So can I curse?

Mel Robbins (45:55)

Yes, you can.

Logan Urie (45:56)

Okay, great. So I have a chapter in my book called Fuck the spark. And this has become sort of my unofficial motto because I have so many coaching clients who come to me and they're like, we went on this great date, we had so much to talk about. I'm really glad that I met her. I'm not going to see her again. Like, what are you talking about? And they'll say, I just didn't feel the spark. And so the spark has become my nemesis because it's this all encompassing term that means instant chemistry. Fireworks, puppies, butterflies. And people have really unrealistic expectations around it. And so there are three myths of the spark. The first one is that if you don't have a spark in the beginning, it can't grow. And that's absolutely not true. Research shows that only 11% of couples felt love at first sight. Ow.

Mel Robbins (46:44)

Really?

Logan Urie (46:45)

Yeah. And many people say, oh, you know, we work together and the interest grew over time. Or I wasn't going to say yes to the second date, but then I did and I found That I really liked them more over time. And so the spark definitely can grow. The second myth is that if you feel a spark, it's a good thing. And that's definitely not always the case. Some people are just really sparky. And I always think about my friend Archie, where the first few times I met him, I was like, whoa, we really have a connection. And then I talked to my friend, who I'd never said that to, and she's like, I feel like Archie and I really have a connection. And I was like, oh, Archie's just really sparky. It has nothing to do with us. And so some people just are that way. They give that feeling. To many people, it's not about your connection. It's about who they are. And then the third one is that if you have a spark, the relationship is viable. And that's also not true. There are couples that I interviewed for my book who are unhappily together or now divorced, and they met the right way. They had this romantic we met story, but then the relationship was actually not a good fit. But they were so attached to their origin story that they felt like it could keep them alive. And so the spark is enough to get the relationship going, but it's definitely not enough to keep it going.

Mel Robbins (48:02)

So what do you want us to know about the spark?

Logan Urie (48:06)

So fuck the spark and go after the slow burn.

Mel Robbins (48:10)

The slow burn. So the advice is pay attention to the slow burn.

Logan Urie (48:15)

Yes. A lot of the best people out there are people who other people overlooked because they don't spark on a first date. They're not particularly extroverted. Maybe they're not the most charming. It takes them time to warm up. But these are such solid, reliable, incredible partners. And I'm not saying go after the boring person. I'm saying that some people are really, really sparky when you meet them and you feel very drawn to them. But a lot of the best relationships are with people who are consistent and who will be a great partner long term.

Mel Robbins (48:46)

Well, this gets back to your point that I think we're going to come back to over and over again, which is, if it's not working, look in the mirror. And when you said spark, it also reminded me of research that we wrote about in my book, the let them theory, about how if you are in this pattern where you keep meeting people and it's like, oh, my God, I'm amazing, and it's not working out, based on the research, you're more likely to stay in that same pattern because the spark is coming from A dysfunctional connection between you and the type of person you keep choosing, whether it's the drama or the this or the that, or people you're trying to fix, or this excitement and spark around chasing people that are not available. And so I love that you're reminding us yet again we are chasing something instead of sitting down and figuring out what do we actually want. And how can I choose that with my behavior? How can I choose that with my filters? How can I choose that by looking at a slow burn and giving somebody a chance to grow on me?

Logan Urie (49:53)

Yeah, you just really summarized my whole philosophy, which is really that a lot of times people come to me and they say, I live in the worst city for dating. There's nobody good out there. And then instead of focusing on the other people who they can't control, I really encourage them to look at their own behavior, point out their dating blind spots, and then choose a different path. And so I know you know this from writing a lot of books, but you put out a book and you don't necessarily know, like, what will pop off.

Mel Robbins (50:19)

Right.

Logan Urie (50:19)

But from my book, this concept of the three dating tendencies has become really popular because it's really about identifying what you're doing to hold yourself back. And so it's all about unrealistic expectations.

Mel Robbins (50:32)

What are the three dating tips?

Logan Urie (50:33)

So the first one is the romanticizer. And you'll probably think of different people in your life that are each of these. So the romanticizer is that person who's looking for the soulmate. One person for life. I want the romantic rom com we met story. We both reach for the tomato at the same time, and they feel like if I find my soulmate, everything about the relationship will be easy. The second type is. Oh, so the first type has unrealistic expectations of relationships. The second type is the maximizer, and they have unrealistic expectations of their partner. This is the person who's always looking for something better. I want her looks, her ambition, her family background, and I just need to find this Frankenstein version that has all of that, and then I'll be ready. And they always wonder, is there somebody better out there? And it's hard for them to ever choose because they feel like I should just keep looking. And then the third type is the hesitator, and they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. And they're the person who says, I'm not lovable right now. Why would anyone date me right now? I'm going to wait until I lose ten pounds, until I have a more impressive job. Then I'll start dating. And so they're not putting themselves out there at all.

Mel Robbins (51:44)

And what is the advice to each one of these? So if you are the person that's a romanticizer. Unrealistic expectations. You're looking for the instant soulmate love story and now you're getting discouraged. What's the advice?

Logan Urie (51:58)

So romanticizers are hard for me because I feel. They feel like I'm popping their bubble, that I'm bursting their bubble. But what I like to tell them is what's romantic is finding somebody and building a relationship. Who cares how you met? If you're in a 50 year marriage, the day you met is 0.0055% of your total relationship. So really get out of the obsession with I want to meet the romantic way. No, what's romantic is that you met. And there's this framework called the soulmate mindset versus the work it out mindset. It's from psychologist Franny Renee Frana and what she says is that soulmate mindset people, what they think is if you find the perfect person, everything else is easy. And so when they encounter problems in their relationships, they give up. The work it out mindset is a great relationship, is one where you both work to make it great and you can tackle any problem that comes your way. So the advice for them is to shift from the soulmate mindset to the work it out mindset.

Mel Robbins (52:58)

And it makes so much sense because if you're looking for a soulmate, it means they're the solution to your problems. I love that advice for the maximizer who's trying to take a piece of this person and a piece of that person and build the perfect Frankenstein man or woman partner for themselves. And what is the advice there?

Logan Urie (53:17)

So probably most of my clients are maximizers because I work with a lot of tech CEOs and finance people and people who are like, yeah, I write job descriptions all the time and then a recruiter finds that person for me and then they want to do that for dating. So I think a lot of us with online research feel like I can research my way to the right answer. And you're never going to get that with dating. And I actually think that's a really hard shift for people to understand that you'll never feel like, oh yeah, I'm 100% sure that this is the person. You sort of have to trust yourself and then take a leap.

Mel Robbins (53:47)

So do you not believe in a soulmate?

Logan Urie (53:49)

Not at all.

Mel Robbins (53:50)

I actually don't either.

Logan Urie (53:51)

I think there's so many people that you can make it work with, and you'll have different stories with different people. But I love my life with my husband, but I could have had a different life with someone else. I don't think that's.

Mel Robbins (54:02)

I think that's a hard thing for anyone. For a lot of people to give up is this belief that there is someone out there.

Logan Urie (54:09)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (54:10)

That is solely uniquely meant for you. And here's what I'm going to say about that. I believe that you can make an incredible life and relationship work with thousands and thousands of people. I do believe on a deeply spiritual and energetic level that when you believe that, you open yourself up to possibility, which allows you to meet the person that's meant for you.

Logan Urie (54:38)

I completely agree.

Mel Robbins (54:38)

So I kind of believe in both, but not. But I don't take the approach in life of I gotta figure out the needle in the haystack, and that's how I'm gonna find it. I'm like, I'm open to this.

Logan Urie (54:47)

Of course you wanna choose someone who you can have a great relationship with. But great relationships are built. They're not discovered.

Mel Robbins (54:55)

I love that. Did you hear that, everybody? Great relationships are built. They're not discovered.

Logan Urie (55:02)

And if you really understand that, you can build the relationship of your dreams. It takes the pressure off of finding the perfect person. I am definitely a maximizer in my life, and it is challenging for me. But there's. Instead of the maximizer framework, there's something called a satisficer. So this is somebody who says, I have expectations and they can be really high, but once I find something that satisfies those expectations, I'm going to go with it and not overthink it. So during the pandemic, I needed to buy my first car, and my husband and I said, okay, we want something used, something that's hybrid, and we want to spend under this amount. We went to two places. There was one red used Toyota Camry hybrid, and we bought it. And I love our car. And it didn't spend months looking for the perfect car. I said, this meets our expectations. Let's do it. And so satisficing. We know from the research that they're happier because they don't spend their whole lives saying, what about this? What about that? They say, I wanted to find someone who I was attracted to, who was funny and who was smart. I found her, I'm going to invest in her. That person's so much happier than the guy who spends another decade looking for this perfect person.

Mel Robbins (56:09)

I have a feeling there's someone in my life that I think is probably a maximizer. And it's really cute because they are in a relationship and their partner recently said to them, I can learn to cook, you can learn to play this sport. Like, these are skills we can build together. Like, it's. It doesn't mean that, you know, things aren't gonna change over time. Don't penalize me for the fact that I'm not actually perfect right now. I can grow with you and you can grow with me.

Logan Urie (56:39)

I love that. There's this quote that I love from Charles Darwin, which is, it's not the strongest species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It's the one that's most responsive to change. And that's great advice for relationships because it's not the couple that was the most in love when they met or had the most in common. It's the couple that acknowledges, we're going to have a long relationship together and I'm going to change and you're going to change, and we need to adapt to that.

Mel Robbins (57:06)

What about the hesitator?

Logan Urie (57:08)

The hesitator, who I do have a soft spot for. It's really about getting out there. And it reminds me of your quote, start before you're ready, because nobody's ever a hundred percent ready. And so I have clients who read tons of books about dating. They're excited to talk to me, but they're not going on any dates. And I'll say to them, we can't have another appointment until you have gone on at least three dates because they're not putting themselves out there. And then they say, but I'm so bad at it. I'm like, nobody wakes up one day and knows how to play the guitar. You practice and you get better at it. So the only way to get better at dating is by dating. And so start before you're ready. Set a deadline for yourself, get some cute outfits, pick some fun first date ideas, have a friend hold you accountable, and just start dating.

Mel Robbins (57:55)

Meaning how do you start? What are the top three things to do if you're like, okay, I've done that. I'm on the app. Does it mean you gotta reach out, you gotta set a date? Is that what that is?

Logan Urie (58:03)

The number one thing is having a great profile. So I can tell you some good profile tips. Yes.

Mel Robbins (58:08)

Let's hear the profile tips.

Logan Urie (58:09)

So in our research at Hinge, we found that your first photo should be a clear headshot. No filters, no sunglasses. Just what do you look like? And then in your photos, you Professional headshot.

Mel Robbins (58:19)

A selfie with friends with music.

Logan Urie (58:21)

I'm using the term headshot a little loosely, but just a photo of your face where it's clear to see what.

Mel Robbins (58:27)

You look like alone.

Logan Urie (58:28)

Nobody else in it, definitely.

Mel Robbins (58:30)

Do you see that in the data that you don't want somebody else in it? Oh, yeah.

Logan Urie (58:33)

It's so confusing. People are just like, which one are you? And then they don't investigate. They just say, that's annoying. And they say, no.

Mel Robbins (58:39)

Okay. Did you hear that, everybody? Just you.

Logan Urie (58:42)

It literally is answering the question, what do you look like? So just show us your face. In your photos, you should have a photo of you doing something that you love. So if you like hiking, if you love playing Scrabble, just paint a picture for us of your life. Then you should have a full body shot. That's something that came up in the research. People want to see what you look like. And then.

Mel Robbins (59:01)

And is there a reason. And the reason is that there is an assumption if I can't see your body, that you're hiding something.

Logan Urie (59:08)

Not necessarily. It's just something where we looked at the research of the profiles of people who were really successful. What did they include, and what does successful mean? Meaning that they're finding matches and deleting the app because they're in a relationship.

Mel Robbins (59:22)

Oh, well, that's a great success thing for Hinge. It's not. So I love that you're measuring success not by how many people are getting likes and how many. Because part of when you said full body, I immediately went, but what about people's bias? And what about the fact that there are human beings with ridiculous expectations and judgments? And also, there is this known behavior that people engage in of crowding towards certain people. I would imagine if some people are like, but I don't want to put my body up. Like, you're actually saying that showing your body in a photo is really important.

Logan Urie (60:03)

Yeah, I'm just trying to give people the practical tools of what successful daters do differently. Great, Great.

Mel Robbins (60:09)

And this is based on the people that actually meet somebody and then delete the app, which is the goal.

Logan Urie (60:13)

You know, it's interesting because that really is what success looks like for people. So these are just tools to get to the point where you can go on your last first date.

Mel Robbins (60:22)

Oh, I love that. That's really cool. How do you distinguish between what's actually, like, a real deal breaker for you and just you're a picky person or you have a little pet peeve, like somebody's a messy or Maybe they like to spend the weekends fishing and you don't like fishing. Or maybe you love to watch soccer and they don't like to watch soccer. Like, how do you distinguish for yourself and give yourself a reality check?

Logan Urie (60:47)

So I'm laughing at this because pet peeves have become a pet peeve for me where I get so frustrated with people. Where I met this woman a while ago and she was like, logan, I'm single. Do you know anyone? I'm open to anyone you want to set me up with, unless he's a mouth breather. And I was like, what? And she's like, oh, you know, people who breathe out of their mouths. It's so annoying. And so people have this list of pet peeves that are small things that annoy them more than maybe they annoy someone else. But they confuse them for deal breakers, real fundamental incompatibilities that mean that you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone. So a deal breaker would be something like, I smoke and you have asthma or I celebrate this religion, you practice this other religion. And we both want to raise our kids in our own religion. Yes, we're probably not going to work out as a couple, but people should really sit down, make a list of their deal breakers, and then ask themselves, is this a real incompatibility? And if not, just move it to the pet peeves list and don't focus on it. And so I never tell people to settle. That's kind of like the big S word in my work. But I do say double down on the things that matter and be willing to compromise on the things that don't.

Mel Robbins (61:59)

Before I ask the next question, I would love for one of our listeners named Molly to ask you a question.

Logan Urie (62:05)

Let's do it.

Mel Robbins (62:06)

Hi, Mel.

Logan Urie (62:07)

I'm 23 and feeling super burnt out by the dating process. Now that I'm out of school, it's not as easy to meet new guys. And I hate going on first date. I would much rather meet a guy organically. Do you have any advice of where I should go or what I should do to meet new people? Great. So we've been talking a lot about online dating, so I'll actually shift to talk about how to meet more people in real life. So my favorite concept for this is a framework I have called the events decision matrix. We might want to actually draw it out because it's very visual.

Mel Robbins (62:42)

Okay.

Logan Urie (62:43)

But you basically draw a two by two.

Mel Robbins (62:46)

So for those of you who are not techie like myself, she's basically making a box a quadrant yeah. Has four squares in it. So just draw a line up and down, and then you can draw a little square around it. You get four cubes.

Logan Urie (63:00)

Okay, so at the top of the line, the vertical line, you say, likelihood that I'll meet someone at this event.

Mel Robbins (63:10)

Okay, so right or left?

Logan Urie (63:12)

The top. Like on the top.

Mel Robbins (63:13)

Oh, so on the top. So on the top of this thing you're going to write. Okay, what's the, like, the likelihood that you're going to meet someone at an event? Okay, yeah. So, like, for example, if I went to the Red Sox, probably not going to meet somebody because everybody's like, super into the game, and unless I'm standing in line for the beer. Although I could meet somebody in line.

Logan Urie (63:30)

Yeah. And then at the. On the right hand side, you'll say, likelihood you'll enjoy it. Like, enjoy this event.

Mel Robbins (63:38)

Enjoy this event. Yep.

Logan Urie (63:41)

So I created this because I felt like I was working with a lot of busy people who were like, I really want to meet someone in real life, but I'm busy. And what event should I prioritize? Okay, so my recommendation for Molly and for anyone else is that look at a bunch of events, look on Facebook, look on meetup, follow different museums, whatever you're into. Look. And then every time there's an event, you plot it on here. And the things that you think about are, what's the likelihood that people interact at this event? So maybe you love horror movies, but people don't really talk at a movie marathon versus a book club. It's all about talking and meeting.

Mel Robbins (64:16)

True.

Logan Urie (64:17)

So the higher likelihood it is that people meet at this event, the higher it goes on here. And then on the right, you say, what's the likelihood that I'll enjoy it? So maybe you actually don't like reading, so that's not a good fit for you. But you like bike repair workshops. So things that fall in the upper right hand quadrant are things where people are likely to interact and you're likely to enjoy it, and those are the events that you should go to. And the reason why I'm getting so mathematical about this is because I really want people to spend time at the things that are worth their while so that they don't get burned out. So if you really are going to like the event, then who cares if you met someone or not? You still did something that you liked and really just take that moment to think about, will people there be talking? So I actually feel like a Red Sox game could be good for this. That's like, if you are a Fan, you could talk to the people around you. One of my hottest tips for meeting people in real life is just get into a line and start talking about the line. How long have you been in this line? What are you going to order? Do you have any recommendations here? Honestly, it's like people do want to connect, but they don't know how to do it and we are out of practice. And so another piece of advice I have for people is abf, always be flirting.

Mel Robbins (65:32)

Okay, what does that mean?

Logan Urie (65:33)

It means that imagine that you're at a bar and you see the hottest person and you want to approach them. But guess what? You haven't approached someone in two years. You're not going to be good at it because you're out of practice. So how can you practice flirting with everyone? Flirting with the world? And I mean flirting as kind of a catch all term for interacting with people. So you're waiting to get a haircut and the guy behind you is also waiting. Talk about getting your hair cut, whatever it is. Practice talking to people in elevators. Practice talking to people at the grocery store so that when you do meet that person you're romantically interested in, you actually have the social skills to approach them.

Mel Robbins (66:10)

This is so important because I do see a lot of people who complain about the apps and complain about the dating and then don't do anything. Walk around, look at their phone, work from home, don't put themselves out there. And putting yourself out there means saying hello to people. I wanted to go to one other aspect of Molly's question. She's bad at first dates. Do you have any advice for somebody who believes they are bad at first dates? Because if you believe you're bad at first dates, you're not going to go on them. And you're also going to continue to be bad on first dates. So how, what are the big tips on how to be better on first dates while you're still getting better at first dates?

Logan Urie (66:50)

I have a lot of thoughts around this, so I would first want to ask Molly, what are you not enjoying about the first dates? Is it that there's a lot of small talk? Are you just spending time in the shallow end of the conversation pool? How can you actually be talking about more interesting things? So I sit next to people in restaurants all the time on first dates and they are so painstakingly boring. And then I'm just like, please stop talking about how many siblings you have. Who cares? That doesn't define you or what the.

Mel Robbins (67:18)

Hell do you talk about?

Logan Urie (67:19)

So a trick that I have for people is this concept. It's a Latin phrase called in media res, which means in the middle of things. So you can walk into a date and say, I was listening to the most interesting Mel Robbins podcast on the way here, and she has this concept called let them. And it really made me reflect on this. What do you think about this? Getting advice from people, hearing how they think, when you just exchange information, that's so boring. And that's a real reason why people get burned out, because they're like, I go on the same exact date at the same exact bar having the same conversation. My friend Kristen calls this press play conversations. You have a tape in your head, you press play and you say, I went to college here. I studied this. Now I do this. It's like, you're fucking bored. They're fucking bored. You're not having an experience. How can you actually have a real experience where you're in the moment processing new things and talking and not boring each other out of your minds?

Mel Robbins (68:14)

And what's cool about this advice is you're actually in control of this. Logan, I just love how you break this down. And I need to hit pause so we can give our sponsors a chance to share a few words. Please share this episode with the people that you love. And please don't go anywhere. Logan's only just getting started. I got so many more questions. She's got so many more tactics to share, and you're going to want to hear them. So stay with us. We'll be right back. Have you noticed that the experts on this podcast keep telling you and me over and over, if you want a better life, you need better sleep, and you can't do that on an unsupportive, uncomfy mattress that you've kept around for 20 years. I mean, think about it. You eat right, you exercise, you're making big moves in your life, and then you go and you flop down on a crappy, lumpy, gross mattress. I mean, come on now. As you push through the craziness of the holiday season, feeling well rested is extra important. Sleeping on the right mattress, you deserve that. Mattress Firm knows the importance of undisrupted quality sleep and can match you with the right mattress for your best rest. They're not messing around. They've got the top mattresses in the game. And the coolest part, if you see the mattress at a lower price, mattress Firm will match it. Plus, they got free and fast delivery, so you'll be snoozing like a pro in no time. A Good night's sleep is the fuel you need to tackle every day with energy and confidence. This is a gift you need to give to yourself. Get matched at Mattress Firm's Black Friday sale and sleep at night. Text MEL to 766693 for $100 off your next purchase at Mattress Firm. Exclusions apply one of our new sponsors I love who am I talking about? Viori. I am obsessed with Viori activewear because their gear isn't just for the gym. It's designed to look amazing and feel even better in everyday life. Let me tell you about my favorite the Performance Jogger which is part of Viori's Dream Knit collection. Let's just talk about that name. Dream Knit. Yes, it feels like a dream which is why I wear these joggers everywhere. The Performance Jogger is made with Dream Knit fabric which is moisture wicking, made from 89% recycled materials and has four way performance stretch. Whether I'm starting my morning with a low impact workout or just skipping the workout altogether and running some errands, I'm living in these puppies. Viori is an investment in your happiness and for our listeners they're offering you 20% off your first purchase. Plus enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 in free returns. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet@vori.com Mel that's V U O R I.com Mel exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. As a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be. If your message isn't targeted to the right audience, it just disappears into the noise. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach the professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. With LinkedIn's targeting capabilities, you can reach them by job title, industry company and more. You'll have direct access to and build relationships with decision makers. A billion members, 130 million senior level executives and 10 million C level executives stand out with LinkedIn ads and start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. What I've learned firsthand is that LinkedIn can help you find the people who can actually move the needle for your business. I can't imagine working without it. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. They'll even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.commel to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.commel terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be, to Be. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today, you and I are getting the data and science supported strategies that you need to be using and so do the people that you love in the modern dating world. So, Logan, how do you coach somebody who might be shy or are in press play conversations and they've never thought about it this way?

Logan Urie (72:07)

So I had a client who I thought was so funny. She was really cool, really interesting. I was a fan of hers, and then she told me that she was consistently getting feedback from people that she wasn't memorable or she wasn't remarkable. Obviously they said it in nicer ways, but she just wasn't standing out. And so I said to her, come in with hot takes. Tell us your hot takes.

Mel Robbins (72:27)

What is a hot take?

Logan Urie (72:28)

A hot take is why goldendoodles are overrated.

Mel Robbins (72:32)

Oh, I agree. I love them.

Logan Urie (72:33)

But yes, why a taco is a sandwich. All of these different things. And they can be silly or they can be serious. And the point is that you're being memorable, but you're having a conversation that that person has likely never had before. And then you get to see how my mind works, and I get to see how your mind works. Another trick that I really tell people to do a lot is to ask for advice. It's not about creating a power imbalance. It's just that such a huge part of my life is asking my husband for advice and vice versa. And I love his advice because I really trust him. I think he's so smart. I think he has a good way of looking at the world, and I think he has my best interests at heart. So if you're on a date, it doesn't have to be something deep. You can just say, having this problem with my manager, you know, he's giving me this. I really think I should do this. What do you think I should do?

Mel Robbins (73:20)

Are they able? I love that. I think that is a genius, genius tactic. Because you're right. It's not about a power dynamic. You're actually confident enough to say there's this thing going on, and then you get to see how this person thinks.

Logan Urie (73:33)

See how they think. Can they listen? Can they empathize? Can they take a situation that they haven't been a part of, put themselves in it, and give you advice? And look, a lot of people can't do that. And maybe that doesn't matter to everyone, but your partner is part of your life. Board of directors. And you better be able to trust them.

Mel Robbins (73:50)

Well, and here's the other thing, because you were coaching us on asking for advice or coming with a hot take. I would imagine the very first pushback that you get from people that you're working with is but what if they don't like it? And you've got to remember this isn't about them picking you. This is about you being yourself. To see if someone is worth picking for you. Like having the courage to just show up as yourself and talk about what's going on and take some of these risks means you know you're worthy enough to find somebody that can step into your life versus sitting there panic stricken about whether or not this person is going to want a second date. If they don't want a second date with you, you don't want them in your life. I want to play another question from Julian, who wants to explain his frustrations with the dating apps these days, and I would love for you to hear this.

Logan Urie (74:50)

Let's do it. Hi Mel, My Name's Julian. I'm 25. I've been using dating apps on and off over the past decade for casual.

Mel Robbins (74:57)

And serious relationship searching.

Logan Urie (74:59)

Over the past decade, it's felt like dating apps has grown a business model that leverages men's desperation for women's attention and making it feel that if you don't pay money for these apps, you.

Mel Robbins (75:11)

Have a much lower chance of engaging with women.

Logan Urie (75:14)

So my question is, do you feel there's a way that dating app products.

Mel Robbins (75:19)

Can redirect this trajectory to not encourage.

Logan Urie (75:22)

Men to have to spend money to engage with women's attention and to produce less toxic culture around how men find connections in the real world? I love this question because I feel like it's a chance to really empower him and to talk about what's in his control. So the things that are in his control are having a great profile. We started talking about this before, but you know, you want to do those particular things in your profile. The clear shot of what you look like, having a picture of you doing something you love, one with friends and family and a clear body shot. And then for your prompt responses on Hinge so the icebreakers you respond to. You really want to tell a story. So show your vulnerability, but also show your silly side and think about it as what are the parts of me that I want to share with someone else to paint a picture of what my life is like. So having a great profile is the first thing that you can do to really stand out, to get better matches, to have the people who you like like you back. Because it feels like that's part of his Frustration. The other thing is sort of training the algorithm on what you like. So being proactive, messaging people, sending comments instead of likes for people who aren't getting a lot of matches. That's one of the biggest changes that you can make is you can stand out by writing a really great comment. Actually scroll down farther in their profile, find something that fewer people are commenting on and spend that extra minute doing that writing exercise of sending a comment that's going to help you stand out. I think so many people think that they're dating because they're just checking the boxes. I have a profile, I'm on Hinge. I'm liking, I'm liking people. It's like, well, you aren't getting anywhere, so why don't you do something a little different or put in effort in the right places and then you're going to get a different result. And so I think that I totally hear this person's frustration around dating. Apps costs money. But I also, if he were here, would want to ask him, are you doing all the right things both online and offline to set yourself up for success?

Mel Robbins (77:21)

So we've talked a lot about kind of online dating and the demographic that Hinge really focuses on. 20s, 30s. I would love to age up a little bit.

Logan Urie (77:33)

Let's do it.

Mel Robbins (77:33)

And talk about what you're seeing for people who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. I remember when my mother in law who's been a widower for a very long time, she actually got on the apps.

Logan Urie (77:47)

Oh really?

Mel Robbins (77:47)

Oh yeah. Her granddaughters helped her build. My daughter helped her build a profile and I remember her complaining even then. This would have been a decade ago. All the guys my age want somebody two decades younger. You know, they all look terrible and didn't take good care of themselves. And I also have a friend in her 50s who's never met anybody and feels very burnt out by the process of dating and dating online in particular. I actually want to play the question that my friend Jody had for you.

Logan Urie (78:21)

Let's do it.

Mel Robbins (78:22)

So let's hear this clip from my friend Jody.

Logan Urie (78:25)

Hi Mel. My name is Jody and I'm 56.

Mel Robbins (78:28)

And single in Scottsdale. As I've gotten older, I find it more and more difficult to date and have lasting relationships.

Logan Urie (78:36)

Many people in their 50s are challenged.

Mel Robbins (78:39)

With balancing a demanding career, navigating children.

Logan Urie (78:43)

Of all ages, managing relationships with their exes, and caring for aging parents. When I do date, most of the problems are not within the relationship itself, but managing all of the other complexities of the Surrounding relationships. What suggestions do you have for navigating.

Mel Robbins (79:02)

The challenges many of us face dating in midlife?

Logan Urie (79:06)

Really great question. And she sounds really nice. I'm glad she's your best friend.

Mel Robbins (79:09)

She's amazing. I'm always like, why are you. Have you not met somebody? You are so fabulous.

Logan Urie (79:16)

I feel like that's an interesting part of the work that I do is that kind of anywhere I go, people will pull me aside and be like, my sister's so amazing. Can you help her? It's like, we all know some really amazing single people and we just have this question of why are they still single?

Mel Robbins (79:29)

Yes. Is that an appropriate question to have?

Logan Urie (79:32)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (79:32)

You know what I mean? Like, is it judgy? Because I can think of, honestly, seven people in my life who I think are extraordinary, and then I look around, I'm like, all these other people are paired off. What the hell is going on? Because you're freaking fantastic.

Logan Urie (79:47)

I know. I think about that a lot. And when I coach people, I'm only meeting them and I'm only hearing their side of the story. So their homework assignment before they meet with me is that they ask their friends and family, why do you think I'm single? And then they come to their coaching session and tell me what they say.

Mel Robbins (80:03)

And what do you often hear?

Logan Urie (80:05)

You're too picky. You aren't putting yourself out there. You have unrealistic expectations. And then there's kind of the softy friends who are like, you're great. There's nothing wrong with you. I'm like, ah, well, you're paying me for a reason. So let's talk about what's going on.

Mel Robbins (80:18)

What is the hardest thing to hear for that person or the hardest feedback to give somebody? Because I don't think. I don't know about the too picky. I don't know about those things. Is there.

Logan Urie (80:31)

I think it's something like, it really hurts me that I consist. I feel like you consistently are choosing people that are not good for you. And I don't know what to do to make you value yourself more or take yourself more seriously. But you need to run away from red flags that you are just not paying attention to.

Mel Robbins (80:50)

See, I think that's the thing that is probably present. If you've got somebody that is in a situation where they really haven't met somebody that they are dating, people that are not interested in a commitment, they are dating red flags. They are not willing to see those red flags. And maybe it is a pickiness thing, like moving towards somebody that you maybe might be shorter than you or older than you or have, like, a body shape. And so is that kind of the hard feedback that you find when you've really. You're working with somebody that's been single a long time?

Logan Urie (81:28)

There's honestly a lot of different stories that people have. Like, on the show, there's multiple people where I really had to coach them on being more vulnerable. Our vulnerability is what makes us human and what makes people feel like they can connect with us. But so often it's what people think makes them undateable. And so about a year ago, I sent out this email that says, do you think you're undatable? And what do you think makes you undateable? And I got the most responses that I've ever gotten to any email where people are like, I'm undateable because I have an STI. I'm undateable because my partner in their 20s committed suicide. I'm undateable because I've never been in a relationship. I'm undateable because I've been in too many relationships. And then I worked with them on how to kind of own this thing. And so it's going on a date and having a narrative down where you say, this thing happened to me. It was really challenging. Here's what I did about it. You have a narrative that helps you own your story.

Mel Robbins (82:24)

Do you have to have that for your first date?

Logan Urie (82:26)

No, I don't think you have to talk about this on a first date. But people aren't even going on the first date because they're so worried about the moment it comes up. Oh, and I want them to be going on the date and be ready if it comes up. So there's a person on the show who was disabled as a veteran, and there's a lot of stuff he can't do. And he isn't saying yes to any women who are athletic because, oh, well, when they want to go on a jog with me, I can't go on a jog with them. I'm like, you're an amazing guy. People would love to go on a date with you. They can go jog alone. They can jog with their friends like they're looking for a partner. But you are disqualifying yourself because you don't want to have that conversation with them. And then that was my homework assignment that he did on the dates. And I feel like this undateable thing is really big because we. It really goes down to self love. I don't think I'm lovable. I think that there's something wrong with me. If you found out this thing about me, you would reject me. So I'm not even going to meet you, so you can't reject me. And the flip of that is to say, we all have shit that happened to us. I'm not asking for your permission to be here. I'm not asking for your forgiveness. I don't want you to feel bad for me. I have baggage. You have baggage. Your baggage makes me feel safe.

Mel Robbins (83:39)

Wow. How do you handle in a relationship all the baggage that somebody comes with, though? Like, do you have advice? And did it come up in the show of dating somebody? And they've got an ex and they have children, and there is a lot of demands on their time and there may be a lot of stress when they're dealing with an ex, which is a huge factor when you're dating, when you're older.

Logan Urie (84:04)

Yes. So how I would advise people who are 50 plus is the same that I would say to really any dater, which is, everyone comes with a set of problems. Choose the set of problems that you can handle. So I think where people get into trouble is where they think, if I keep on dating, if I'm a maximizer, eventually I'll find someone with no problems. You should switch that to the mindset of what are problems that I can deal with. And so, yes, maybe people have more baggage, but there's baggage that you can deal with and baggage that you can't. And you get to choose what are.

Mel Robbins (84:36)

The top few skills that somebody that's a little bit older needs to learn to be better at dating as you get older?

Logan Urie (84:44)

Yes. One thing I do wanna say to Jodi and to anyone else who's in this age group is just, I talked about what's harder about dating at this age group, and I think it's true. But I also wanna talk about what's easier because I think that can be empowering. So one thing I really found on the show is that there's a greater sense of knowing yourself. I do think that we know ourselves better as we grow up. I'm so much happier in my 30s than I was in my 20s because I'm more comfortable with who I am. I trust myself more. I feel less of a need to get approval from others. So I think that is a beautiful part of wisdom. As you get older, there's also less pressure to marry. And so I think that when you're dating in your 20s and 30s, there's so much pressure of am I going to raise kids with this person? Is my family going to accept them? Well, guess what, when you're dating this age group, you're not about to have kids with them. So you can choose someone who you might not have chosen the first time around. You actually are open to dating different types of people because there's less pressure.

Mel Robbins (85:39)

I love that. It's true. It's absolutely true. What are some of the top skills that you believe people that are dating when they're older need to learn?

Logan Urie (85:53)

The first thing that I would do is really reflect on what you want. So you may not want a traditional relationship. There's a big trend of living apart together where you don't merge your households, you don't merge your finances. You can be married or you can be in a relationship, but you don't have to give up your house or your apartment and be open to things working a different way. Another thing is to really know yourself. So what are my patterns? What have I been doing over and over? What do I want to do differently this time? And really, what we've been saying, look in the mirror. Another thing is that societal norms are changing. So this came up on the show the Later Daters, where I would say to someone, you're following an outdated playbook. Stop being so coy. Call the guy back, tell him that you're interested. Like, you are a career businesswoman, but you're in the corner kind of not expressing what you want. Just go after it. And so sort of understand what outdated models you're currently following.

Mel Robbins (86:49)

I love that. I absolutely love that. One of the things that I've loved about talking to you, Logan, is just, it's achieved this mission that I had of really trying to understand the difference between the app and it, facilitating connection. And you were fantastic at giving us very specific things to do in order to widen the aperture and to also separate the app itself from just the toxic behavior of people and the difficulties that have always been in dating around rejection and people not following up and just how hard it can feel to push yourself out there. That that's always been a thing. But you've also kind of left us with this message about, like, there's so much in your control, and if you find that you're just blaming the apps and blaming the apps and blaming the apps, you're missing the biggest source of your power, which is what's in your control and what are your parting words to the person listening?

Logan Urie (87:56)

My advice for everyone, and not just for dating, is life doesn't happen to you. And if that is your way of thinking about the world, you're really missing out. So the client who says to me these situationships keep happening and nobody will commit to me, well, they're not happening to you. You are choosing people who are not ready, who are not emotionally open, who don't want to commit to you. And then you're saying, life is happening to me. That's being in the passenger seat of your love life and your life in general. So get out of the car, move to the driver's seat, take control of your dating life. And that's really how you're going to find and build the relationship of your dreams.

Mel Robbins (88:35)

And what is the very first step, based on everything that we've talked about, that you want someone listening to do as soon as they're done with this, to truly put themselves in the driver's seat about what they want?

Logan Urie (88:49)

If you are single and you've been single for a long time, take my quiz. Find out what your dating tendency is. Embrace the fact that you're a hesitator and you need to put yourself out there. Understand that you're a romanticizer and that you're very focused on the we met. Know that you're a maximizer and you're trying to find the perfect person, own that, grieve it a little bit, and then make a plan to move past it and really find what you're looking for.

Mel Robbins (89:13)

I love that. Logan Urie. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. And I also want to thank you for spending time together with us. I know that you're going to be sending this episode and sharing this with all of your single friends and all of the young adults in your life. I'm so excited to hear how you put this to use. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And if part of that means finding an incredible partnership, I think you just got incredible tactical advice and a whole new perspective and way to look at the apps that will empower you and the people that you love to do that. Alrighty. I will be waiting for you in the very next episode. Okay, great. Great. Okay, that works. Great. This is awesome. Do you need her to say that again? Oh, no, sorry. I was just checking. No, I know, but do you think we heard that or No?

Logan Urie (90:13)

I usually don't drink caffeine, but I drank some for this and I'm feeling great.

Mel Robbins (90:18)

Awesome.

Logan Urie (90:19)

Saved it for Mel logo.

Mel Robbins (90:21)

Took the red eye in last night to make it here, so. Oh, my God. You're a hero.

Logan Urie (90:25)

It was a little challenging.

Mel Robbins (90:26)

I'm glad you also took a nap. Oh, yeah. Cause that is a. Yeah. It'll be worth it.

Logan Urie (90:33)

You don't have to convince me. Whatever date you would have said, I would have said that's the perfect date.

Mel Robbins (90:39)

That's awesome.

Logan Urie (90:40)

Cool. Yay.

Mel Robbins (90:43)

Amazing. Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

Logan Urie (90:45)

Me too.

Mel Robbins (90:46)

Okay, great. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

Logan Urie (91:26)

Stitcher.

Mel Robbins (91:30)

This bonus segment, all about friendship, is sponsored by Celebrity Cruises. With celebrity cruises, check this out. You can sail to almost 300 incredible destinations around the world. Explore ancient history in Europe, lose yourself in the wild beauty of Alaska, or sink your toes into the warm, pinkish sands of the Caribbean. And along the way, you can relax in elevated rooms, enjoy world class entertainment, and spoil yourself with amazing food and drink. Doesn't that just sound like the kind of experience you want to share with your friends? Sure does. And isn't it true that good friends, they just make everything so much more fun? But here's the thing. Life gets busy. And if you're like me, suddenly you, like, have this epiphany where you're like, it's been months. And sometimes with some of my most favorite people who I'm kind of mad at because they don't live anywhere near me, it's been years, years since I've spent any time with them doing something. Well, here's the truth. You have to make time. Life is too short not to enjoy it with the people who make it worth living. And if you really stop and think about some of your best memories with your friends, what were you doing? How about you were on a road trip or a bachelorette party, or you were camping for the weekend. Why do you remember those things? I'll tell you why. Because traveling with your friends is one of the most amazing things that you can do. And light it's when you have all those laugh till your stomach hurts conversations. You stay up way too late. You can just let loose and be yourself, which you can't do with your family a lot of the time. And it makes memories that you talk about for years. In fact, you're still talking about the last time you went away with your friends. And this brings me to another piece of research. When you invest in your relationships, you're also investing in yourself. So there's this 86 year long study that was done at Harvard University. And one of the things that this research did tells us that is loud and clear, is that when it comes to living a deeply meaningful life, it's not money or fame or accomplishments that is going to make your life truly happy and fulfilling. The number one thing based on 86 years of research is the quality of your relationships. And every single experience that you have with your friends deepens those friendships. And so that's why it's crucial for you to take what I'm reminding you of seriously. You need to make time for your friends. They deserve it and so do you. So today, before you're done listening, make the call, send the texts, plan a date. A year from now, six months from now, three months from now, whatever. And one other thing, those moments with the people that you love, they're going to give you the fuel that you need to get through everything else on your calendar. And I want to give a huge shout out to Celebrity Cruises for reminding you and me of what you know to be true. That time with friends matters. And if you want it, you can be the one to plan it. And if you and your friends are craving a travel experience that's intimate and packed with variety, think of Celebrity Cruises because they can make it happen. And it would be super easy to plan. I mean, just imagine, you pick your week, you pick the cruise you want to go on, and now you can just picture you and your friends on a ship with a cozy feeling of a boutique hotel and all the features of a grand adventure. Beautiful elevated rooms, non stop entertainment, some of the best food you're ever going to eat. And there's so much to do. Here's the best part. You don't have to plan what everybody as a group is going to do once you get on the ship, because everybody can do whatever they want on all day long and you're still together and you get to hang. How cool is that? Learn more@celebritycruises.com Visit celebrity.com for details. Ships Registry Malta and Ecuador Running a.

Logan Urie (95:24)

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Mel Robbins (95:38)

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Logan Urie (95:39)

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Mel Robbins (96:13)

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Logan Urie (96:16)

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