The Reality of Adult Friendship: Here’s Why You’re Lonely & How to Make Real Friends as an Adult

Summary

The Mel Robbins Podcast
Episode Title: The Reality of Adult Friendship: Here’s Why You’re Lonely & How to Make Real Friends as an Adult
Guest Expert: Kasley Killam, Harvard-trained social scientist
Date: May 7, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the challenges of adult friendship, the epidemic of loneliness, and what it takes to build meaningful connections later in life. Mel Robbins is joined by Kasley Killam, a Harvard-educated social scientist and author who specializes in social health—the role of human relationships in our overall well-being. Together, they unpack startling statistics about loneliness, dispel common myths, provide practical research-backed tools for connection, and challenge listeners to examine their habits and excuses around friendship. The episode includes actionable takeaways designed to help listeners proactively improve their social health, build lasting friendships, and reframe connection as a vital pillar of a fulfilling life.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Adult Friendship & Loneliness

• Staggering Stats: Modern adults are more isolated than ever before.
  • Young people today spend about 1,000 fewer hours per year with friends than 20 years ago ([05:07]).
  • 72% of Americans hang out with loved ones just two, one, or zero times per month ([05:35]).
  • 86% of Mel’s poll respondents want better friendships but admit it’s hard to meet new people ([00:16]).
• Cultural Factors: Increased work demands, mobility, social media use, and living alone make organic friendships rare and connection harder ([06:08], [60:10]).
• Quote - Mel:
  "Everyone wants a village. Nobody wants to be a villager. Well, today you and I are going to be the villager. Because the village isn’t something you find, it’s something you build." ([00:42])

2. Social Health: The Third Pillar

• Defining Social Health:
  Kasley describes social health as the "dimension of your overall health and well-being that comes from connection"—on par with physical and mental health ([08:12]).
• Physical Effects of Connection:
  Research shows human connection boosts mental health, resilience, immunity, even longevity ([09:15]).
  • Example: People with more hugs and support got sick less often—and recovered faster ([10:02]).
  • Chronic loneliness elevates stress hormones (cortisol), increasing disease risk ([10:51]).
• Social Health Recognized Globally:
  The World Health Organization now marks social health as equally important as mental and physical health ([08:52]).

3. The Science of Connection: Why It’s Fundamental

• Biological Wiring:

  • Loneliness activates the same brain regions as hunger ([15:35]).
  • Social isolation is a physiological stressor—humans evolved to need tribe and touch ([10:27]).

• Quote - Kasley:
  "Health is not just physical and mental like we typically talk about. Health is also social." ([07:33])

• Consequences of Isolation:

  • Chronic loneliness increases rates of depression, suicide, heart disease, diabetes, dementia, and premature death—on par with smoking and obesity ([19:08]).

4. Addressing the Loneliness Epidemic

• Practical Reframes for Loneliness:

  • Loneliness is a cue ("signal") from your brain/body, not proof of unlovability ([15:35]).
  • Relationships naturally ebb and flow; periods of loneliness are common and normal ([14:34]).

• Quotes – Kasley:
  "Just like you can go from being out of shape to physically strong again, you can go from feeling isolated or disconnected to being socially healthy and strong again." ([14:59])

5. Social Muscles: Strategies for Building Connection

Kasley presents a four-part metaphor likening connection to exercise ([12:22]):

• Stretch: Seek new social opportunities and meet new people.
• Rest: Allow yourself downtime to recharge and avoid social burnout.
• Tone: Deepen existing relationships with more meaningful conversations.
• Flex: Enjoy and sustain strong relationships over time.

6. Facing Our Excuses: Need or Excuse?

• Mel and Kasley review audience responses for reasons they cancel plans, categorizing them as genuine needs or mere excuses ([27:45]–[55:06]).

• Common Excuses:

  • "I’m tired/burnt out" ([30:53]).
  • "I don’t have the funds" ([29:33]).
  • "I feel lazy," "I have nothing to wear," "I have social anxiety" ([27:54], [28:46], [39:15]).
  • "I'd rather be with family/pet/alone" ([37:35], [29:17]).

• Reality Check:

  • Most "I’m too tired" or "I'm too stressed" rationalizations are barriers rather than legitimate needs ([55:06]). Social connection is actually often the antidote for fatigue and burnout, unless it’s a true medical need for rest ([31:48]).
  • Studies show people (even introverts) feel better after spending time with others, even if beforehand they don't feel like it ([25:08]).
  • Quote – Mel:
    "You feel more energized after having dinner with a friend." ([26:21])

• Validate But Challenge Anxiety:

  • Social anxiety and insecurity are valid but becoming avoidant only increases anxiety ([42:26]).

7. Quick Strategies for Busy Adults

• Connection Doesn’t Have to Take Hours:

  • A 10-minute call or a quick text has measurable effects ([60:10], [61:51]).
  • Go for connection-first during idle moments—send a message rather than scroll social media ([60:55]).

• Framework: The 5-3-1 Formula ([64:15])

  • Five: Interact with five different people each week.
  • Three: Keep three close relationships.
  • One: Spend a total of one hour per day connecting with others (can be split into small moments; aim for quality over quantity).

• Quote – Kasley:
  "One hour total a day to have those different moments where you're connecting with people... with a variety of different people." ([65:21])

---

8. Building & Keeping Friendships in Adulthood

• How to Meet New People:

  • Do shared-interest activities where talking is possible—like volunteering, team sports, crafts, or group classes ([62:33]).

• Types of Connections Needed:

  • A range of relationships—variety improves social health ([67:18]).
  • Deep, meaningful, mutual relationships—being "seen and heard" ([45:06]).

• Understanding Friendship Styles: ([67:35])

  • Butterfly: Enjoys frequent, casual connection.
  • Wallflower: Prefers selective, infrequent connection; observer.
  • Firefly: Likes infrequent but deep connection.
  • Evergreen: Thrives on lots of deep, regular connection.

  Knowing your (and your friends’) style prevents misunderstandings about differing social needs ([70:20]).

• Maintaining Distant Friendships: ([71:06])

  • Use micro-moments (audio notes, photos, quick texts).
  • "Put it on autopilot" with scheduled calls or recurring check-ins.
  • Prioritize quality in-person time when possible, even if it means combining trips with friend meetups.

---

9. Deepening and Repairing Friendships

• Be Curious and Ask Deeper Questions:
  • Skip surface-level talk; vulnerability and curiosity bond people quickly ([77:37]).
• Reciprocity:
  • True closeness requires mutual, meaningful exchange; giving and receiving support in turn ([76:07]).
• If Someone Seems Distant:
  • Don’t assume the worst—reach out, check in, and initiate an honest conversation ([74:03], [75:52]).
• Life Transitions:
  • Acknowledge and adapt to changing circumstances, and be open about how connection might look different ([73:37]).

---

10. The Immediate Power of Small Actions

• Presence is Powerful:

  • Paying full attention during daily interactions—at the store, with family, or at work—immediately boosts social health ([79:40]).
  • A single phone call or text can break the cycle of loneliness.

• Quote – Kasley:
  "Taking care of your social health is a way to change your life and change the world." ([83:39])

• Quote – Mel:
  "Social health is one of the requirements of creating a better life. And it's something that you can change right now with a phone call, a text, just a little bit of effort." ([83:51])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why excuses for avoiding friends pile up:
  “There are a lot more excuses than there are needs... most of the time, chances are you're making an excuse and you need to get out there and invest in making new friends, in deepening your connections, because it is going to pay dividends for your life.” (Kasley, [55:06])

• On how quickly life can change:
  “Some of your most favorite people you haven't even met yet.” (Mel, [81:44])

• On the unique power of social health:
  “Social health directly benefits the other person. When you have a conversation with a friend, when you smile at a neighbor across the street... those moments benefit both you and the other person. And that's what I love.” (Kasley, [82:51])

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Reframe Loneliness: See it as a helpful cue, not a flaw.
• Be Proactive: Stop waiting for society to change—take small daily actions.
• Use the 5-3-1 Formula: Aim for 5 different social contacts per week, 3 close relationships, and 1 hour (in total) of connection daily.
• Push Past Excuses: Recognize when “I’m tired” or “I’m anxious” is stopping you from getting what you really need—connection.
• Try the “Go for Connection First” Rule: When you reach for your phone or have a gap in your day, text or call a friend instead of scrolling.
• Be Curious in Conversation: Ask real questions, share honestly, and listen deeply.
• Respect Your Style, But Stretch Yourself: Know if you’re a Butterfly, Wallflower, Firefly, or Evergreen—and seek connection accordingly, but gently push outside your comfort zone.
• Small Gestures Matter: A quick note, a smile, or a short call can have profound impact on your well-being and someone else’s.

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00] — Intro, main theme, audience poll on loneliness and desire for friendship.
• [05:07] — Alarming statistics on decreased time spent with friends.
• [08:12] — Introduction of social health as a third health pillar.
• [09:15] — Effects of connection on physical and mental health.
• [12:22] — Strategies for exercising “social muscles.”
• [14:34] — Addressing loneliness, self-blame, and normalizing ebbs and flows.
• [22:21] — The "protecting my peace" excuse vs. true boundaries.
• [27:45] — Excuse vs. need exercise (audience-submitted reasons for cancelling plans).
• [31:48] — Key finding: feeling tired/burnt out is often solved by friendship.
• [39:15] — Addressing social anxiety and false self-perceptions.
• [55:06] — Most barriers to friendship are excuses, not actual needs.
• [60:10] — Friendship-building for busy people; "connection-first" mindset.
• [64:15] — The 5-3-1 Formula for social health.
• [67:35] — The four friendship styles.
• [73:37] — Navigating changing friendships through honest conversation.
• [77:37] — How to quickly deepen friendships (be curious, ask real questions).
• [79:40] — The single most important takeaway: be present in interactions.
• [83:39] — Social health’s unique impact—benefiting both you and others.

---

Closing Message

This vibrant, honest conversation reframes friendship as vital self-care, not a luxury. Mel and Kasley invite you to take your social health as seriously as your physical and mental health, push past excuses, and embrace small everyday actions that build a happier, healthier, more connected life. The episode ends with a powerful reminder: tending your friendships changes not just your life, but the lives of everyone you touch.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Let's just come out and say it. Friendship. It's really hard right now. And I want to tell you, you're not the only one who feels like life is just this giant blur of work and errands and stress and taking care of family. I mean, none of us know where all of our friends went or how to make new ones. You know, in fact, I polled our audience of 30 million people online, and here's what you told me. 86% of you want better friendships, but the majority of you are saying it's very hard to meet new friends. And you even admit that you'd rather be at home alone than make the effort. So today, here's what you and I are doing. We have a Harvard trained social scientist who's been researching friendship, connection, and loneliness for 15 years here in our Boston studio. And she's brought tools that will help you feel more connected in your life starting today. And she will also share a compelling reason, based on decades of research, why it matters that you take this part of your life seriously. You know, it reminds me of this quote that I love. Everyone wants a village. Nobody wants to be a villager. Well, today you and I are going to be the villager. Because the village isn't something you find, it's something you build. And there are specific steps that you can take, excuses that you must leave behind, and simple habits that will make new connections appear and your existing relationships become deeper and more meaningful. Because connection isn't a nice to have. It's one of the most important requirements of living a fulfilling and happy life.

[B]

There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to close that gap. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it's time to make an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more zeroing in on the one you'll actually end up calling home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream.

[A]

The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner. You know, when someone finishes your sentence because they already understood what you needed, that's what working with Amica feels like. They don't guess. They don't assume. They take the time to understand what you're trying to protect and why it matters. Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first. Amica really does it. You Feel it in the way they listen, the way they follow through, the way they treat you. As a customer owned company, Amica puts your needs first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to welcome back to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am buzzing about the conversation we're gonna have today because this one is really important. You know, it's an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you, and I have a feeling this one's gonna be a big one that we all share with each other. I just wanna personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I cannot wait for you to meet today's expert, Kasley Killam. She is here to share the reality of adult friendship. It's not just you and how to build better relationships. Kasley Kellam is a Harvard trained social scientist who has spent the last 15 years researching how human connection improves your well being. She's the bestselling author of the Art and Science of why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier and Happier. Kasley earned her master's degree from Harvard T.H. chan School of Public Health and holds professional certificates from Stanford Graduate School of Business and Columbia. She's also conducted research in positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and launched an award winning initiative promoting empathy and kindness at Stanford University. She has been a fellow at Columbia University, Aspen Institute of Health and Mind and Life Institute. And today, Kasli Killam is here to help you. She's going to share the research, the tools and the practical advice you need in order to feel more connected and build friendships that last and understand why connection is the key to a meaningful life. Please help me welcome Kasley Killam to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

[B]

Thank you so much, Mel.

[A]

I am so excited that you're here because the office, I'm talking like 50 people buzzing around like bees. So excited about what you're about to teach us about friendship. Why does this matter so much? What are we gonna learn?

[B]

Well, first of all, it matters because young people today spend nearly a thousand fewer hours per year with their friends.

[A]

Hold on a second. A thousand less hours a year compared

[B]

to 20 years ago.

[A]

Okay, I just want somebody better check my math on this. But a thousand hours, if you put it in a 40 hour workweek, is 25 weeks. That's terrible.

[B]

Yeah. And it gets worse. Mo 67% of Americans never participate in any kind of club or organization OR group and 72% of Americans hang out with the people they care about. Two, one or zero times per month.

[A]

Per month?

[B]

Yes. Two, one or zero times per month

[A]

puts into perspective why people feel lonely, why people say, I never see my friends, why people say adult friendship is so hard. What are we gonna do about this?

[B]

Well, so there's a reason that I studied loneliness from the perspective of public health, okay. Because there's a lot that we need to do as individuals to take agency, to go out and spend more time with our friends. Right? To change these numbers. But the reality is we're also living in a society right now when it feels hard, right? We work all the time, we have long commutes, we're spending so much time on social media that it feels like we're eating junk food and we're full and we're satisfied, but we're not actually getting the nutrients that we need. Right? There's so many different factors. People move around more than they used to. More people live alone than used to. So there's a lot of trends in modern society and forces that make it feel really hard. And so, you know, our goal here today is to empower you as the individual to take steps and to take action. And also we need to slowly shift the culture that we're living in so that it's easier to be socially healthy day to day.

[A]

But you can't wait for the culture to shift.

[B]

You cannot.

[A]

You have to be shifting it for yourself.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So is there good news here? Like, what's going to change about my life if I take everything to heart that you're about to teach us about loneliness, friendship, connection, making friends as an adult? What's going to change about my life if I take your research to heart?

[B]

So first of all, I hope to completely redefine what it means to be healthy for you. Oh, so health is not just physical and mental like we typically talk about. Health is also social. And secondly, I hope to equip you with research backed practical tools for how to take control of your social health, for how to build stronger relationships, for how to deepen your connections.

[A]

You're right, we do talk a lot about mental health and mindset and happiness. We talk about physical health, we talk about financial health. This is a pillar social health that we need to pay equal attention to. Is that what you're saying?

[B]

Social health is the dimension of your overall health and well being that comes from connection. So if you think about physical health is about our bodies, mental health is about our minds, social health is about our relationships. Relationships. So if you think about your health and well being in general as a Greek temple with physical, mental and social pillars, that social pillar has been overlooked and underappreciated for way too long. And that is changing right now. Just last year, my colleagues at the World Health Organization reported and announced that social health is equally important as physical and mental health. And together with my colleagues around the world, we are working to elevate this concept and to make it as mainstream and important as mental health is today.

[A]

So the question that I have for you is You've spent almost 15 years studying social health and connection and friendship. Why is connection and friendship essential for a longer, healthier, more fulfilling life?

[B]

So decades of research, with thousands of studies, literally billions of participants, have shown us time and time again that human connection, friendships, they are vital for so much more than just having a good mood and feeling happy. Yes, that's one piece of it for sure. Right. When we feel connected, when we have supportive relationships, it boosts our mental health. It brings meaning and purpose into our lives. It helps us be more resilient in hard times. It even lowers our risk for things like depression and suicide. Absolutely. But perhaps less intuitive is the impact of connection on our physical health. So we see that when you have those supportive relationships, you are less likely to get sick in the first place. So, for example, one of my favorite studies, researchers followed a group of people for two weeks, and every day they asked people, how supported do you feel and how many hugs have you had? And then at the end of the two weeks, they exposed people to a cold virus. What they found was that people who felt more supported and had more hugs were less likely to get sick. And if they did get sick, they had fewer symptoms.

[A]

Why?

[B]

That's a great question. Because of two things going on. The first is very physiological. Okay. So what we see is that connection influences the biological functioning of our bodies. So for a second, think about feeling disconnected, think about feeling isolated or lonely. That's a really stressful experience. Our bodies register that as a stressor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that releases cortisol in our bodies, that can increase inflammation in our bodies, which then makes us more susceptible to illness and disease in the long term. The contrast to that is that connection, feeling supported, having those hugs where we feel cared for and we're releasing dopamine and oxytocin and all those good things. For us, that's protective, that buffers against that stress pathway. So that's one key piece, is this physiological response. The other is practical. So when you Think about, you know, if you have an illness and your doctor takes time to explain the medications to you, and your friend picks you up from the hospital, and then your family member helps you take those medications, you are going to have better health outcomes. And that's because you had all of those supportive ties helping you actually take the medication.

[A]

What's really cool about this research is and the way that you frame this as a pillar of your overall good life, social health is you've just laid out that there's research that being around other people, getting hugs boosts your immune system, makes you more resilient physically. And it's starting to paint this picture of why being proactive about maintaining connections is critical for your overall well being. And one of the things that I'm curious about is if connection and social health is so important, how do you create it?

[B]

So think about connection like you think about exercise.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

The first strategy is to stretch your social muscles. So just like you stretch your physical muscles to get more nimble and flexible, you stretch your social muscles by seeking opportunities to make new friends, to join new groups, and to interact more often. The second strategy is to rest your social muscles. So when everything feels draining, right, you can actually rest your social muscles. It's also important to take time to connect with yourself or to scale back the amount of interaction. Loneliness isn't the only problem. It's also feeling over connected or connected in ways that aren't fulfilling. So just like we rest our physical muscles in between reps or in between workouts to let our body heal, we also need to rest our social muscles. The third strategy is to tone our social muscles. So this means getting deeper, right? Deepening the connections that we already have, becoming closer to them. Just like we tone our physical musc by lifting heavier weights or working out harder, we can deepen our connections to tone. And then the final strategy is to flex our social muscles. So just like we flex our physical muscles when we are feeling really strong and looking good, we can flex our social muscles to enjoy the relationships that we have and actually sustain them in the long term.

[A]

Well, you know what I'm hearing in every one of those is it's on us that we have to make an effort. And do you think that we've gotten to a point where we've forgotten how important it is and now we're in this like epidemic of loneliness and disconnection. And a lot of what you're teaching right now is how social health, meaning your relationships, connection, community, family, friendship is a core pillar and Just like you're responsible for taking better care of your physical and mental health. You gotta get serious about this.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

You know, could you speak kasly to the person who's listening right now who just feels super lonely?

[B]

So if you are feeling lonely right now, the first thing I wanna say is that it is nothing to be ashamed of. It does not mean that you are not lovable or likable. In fact, it's a really common experience. You are not alone. A recent study found that one in six Americans reports being isolated or lonely most or all of the time. So this is a really common experience. And relationships ebb and flow over the course of our lives. We move, we have kids, we go through these different life changes. It's actually a really natural selection symptom of our society. The second thing I want to say to you is that just like you can go from being out of shape to physically strong again, you can go from feeling isolated or disconnected to being socially healthy and strong again.

[A]

Can you talk a little bit about what loneliness does to your brain and your body and why it is so important to take your social health seriously?

[B]

Sure. So the neuroscience on this is really interesting. For one thing, we see that when people are chronically lonely, that can trigger some really limiting self beliefs. So for example, people who are feeling disconnected might go into a social interaction feeling more guarded, less likely to open up and share, interpreting negative cues more than they're interpreting positive cues. And all of that can actually inhibit them from having a positive interaction with the other person. Ironically, it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. However, there's also good news here. So in one study, researchers compared the brain activity of people who had been isolated all day with the brain activity of people who had not eaten all day. So they were either isolated and lonely or they were hungry. The same brain regions were activated. So what that tells us is that loneliness registers as a cue in our brain. It's literally a signal telling you, hey, there's something you need that you're not getting. It's actually a really helpful thing from our bodies. So in a way, I want to reframe loneliness as something that's totally normal. First of all, that is actually helpful and that can be a motivator to go make the changes that you need to make in your life.

[A]

You know, I love that reframe. And I was just thinking about the fact that so much of this we've experienced, like I know after a big production week where I'm here in Boston for five Days. And I'm around all my colleagues who I love. And, you know, I go home and my poor husband Chris, who is an entrepreneur and who works alone a lot. You know, I come back from a. I'm like. And I'm all energized. And, yeah, I'm tired, but I'm just, like, buzzing from the connection. And you can kind of see somebody that's been home all day has lower energy, and they may be a little bit more, I don't know, like, kind of shut down. And what you're basically saying is, we have to start to take it more seriously. Exactly. And that if you're lonely, that there's nothing wrong with you. This is something everybody goes through. I mean, you're gonna have periods of life where you feel lonely, but there's something we can do about it and you should.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I think it's very fascinating to look at this area of your life, not like friendship and relationships and all this, but as a key pillar to your overall health. I mean, you wanna live a good life. You want to get to the end of this thing and look back, and if you've done it well, you're proud of yourself and you're surrounded by people that you care about and who love you, and you feel like you didn't squander the time. And we know, based on the research and all the things that everybody talks about in common sense, that it's the people. It's the people that are important in your life. And yet, as odd as it sounds, until a lot of researchers like you highlight this area of our lives, we don't really think much about it until we're lonely and disconnected. And so I want to dig deeper into just what the research is saying about the types of connections we need and the types of relationships we need in order to have great social health and to live a good life. And what has the research said about the specific types of connections that you really need in your life?

[B]

Let me come back to that. I first want to elaborate on something you said there, which is that connection matters for a lot more than just our moods. It matters for our physical health. It also matters for our longevity. Mel. So people who have strong friendships have a lower risk for things like heart disease and diabetes and dementia and have a reduced likelihood of premature, premature mortality. So, in fact, some studies have estimated that the death toll of loneliness when it's chronic is up to 53%. It's comparable to things like smoking and obesity and so on. So I say this not to scare people. But to really drive home the fact that we need to take this seriously, the reason why I talk about social health as a distinct pillar from mental health and from physical health is because it affects so much more than just our moods. It affects our bodies. It affects how long we live and how well we live.

[A]

Well, based on what you just said, like, I think we know, common sense wise, that if you do not take care of your physical health, it can kill you. If you do not take care of your mental health, it can kill you. And what you are saying is that if you do not take care of your social health, it can kill you. Based on the research that's come out about loneliness and how devastating it is to your overall wellbeing. And so it's clear, but this is the first time I've actually ever thought about relationships or friendships as a pillar of health versus a thing that you need to have a happy life. Does that make sense?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Wow. So we went out to 30 million followers and conducted our own little kind of research project. And I was absolutely so startled by some of the responses. And what we're gonna talk about is what a lot of people are saying online. And as you're listening or watching, you maybe even answered some of these questions, 86% of the people that we asked want deeper, closer friendships. Now, when we asked, is it hard or is it not hard for you to make new friends as an adult? 79% of people said it was very hard to make friends as an adult. And I share that. Because if you're feeling lonely or if you feel like it's hard for you to make friends as an adult or you're wondering, where the hell did all my friends go? You're not alone. There's this shared desire to have better friends, and there's this shared frustration and loneliness about how hard it is to make new friends as an adult. But here's what I want to ask you about. There is so much crap online right now about protecting my peace. I got to protect my peace, and that's why I don't have time for friendship. Right. And here's what I want to ask you. What is the difference between protecting your peace and an excuse to disconnect that is leaving you feeling lonely?

[B]

I love it. I'm so glad that you brought this up. The first thing I want to say is that there are certain circumstances where it's okay to protect your peace. Right. Part of being socially healthy is having boundaries. And if there is a relationship that is really unhealthy, or abusive, then absolutely you should protect your peace. But that is the exception. That is not the norm. And I really worry that people will protect their peace so much that they have no one. And so I think that we need to reframe this idea of protecting our peace around the fact that if you want healthy relationships, they are sometimes going to be difficult. Human connection is messy.

[A]

Yeah. I think we need to call out ourselves. And here's what I'm going to say. I asked 30 million people, do you find yourself canceling plans because you'd rather stay home and be alone? And 73% of you were honest and said, yup, I cancel plans with friends. I cancel plans to see colleagues because I would rather stay home and be alone. And then when I went further and said, okay, well, what are the reasons why you cancel plans and you don't go out and I'm gonna tell on myself. Okay, you ready? So this weekend we have a group of friends that are getting together, and it's about 45 minutes from where my husband and I live, and they're getting together all day. And this is like seven couples. Now, to put this in perspective, four of these couples were at our wedding. So these are friends that we have had for 30 years. These are some of my friends, favorite people. And I am coming off a big work week and then I am leaving for more work. And I can already feel, even though I like every one of them, I love them and I know it's good for me. Kazley. I can already feel myself as I'm 48 hours away from Saturday morning going, oh, do I really want to get in the car and drive 45 minutes and then go to their house and talk to people that I love? Or would I rather sit in my pajamas and my sweatpants on my couch and spend five hours searching through short form videos? Because, let's be honest, you're not going to do the thing that you think you're going to do. You're going to sit on your rear end and do nothing. And there are times where you're tired or you're sick or there is this and the hair, but I can feel it. And so why are we doing this?

[B]

Well, it's an energy thing, right? It's okay to feel exhausted and burned out sometimes and to want to just be on the couch.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I have a confession, Mel.

[A]

Uh oh.

[B]

I am an introvert. So I also love.

[A]

I wouldn't have picked that up at all, by the way, but

[B]

I am. I love alone time. I love A canceled plan. I love a night in. Here's the thing, though. It's a balance, right? You need to balance your solitude with your socializing. And the fact of the matter is that even introverts end up liking the time that they connect with each other more than we think. So there was a really cool study that followed people for a week, recorded their audio conversations all day, asked them four times throughout the day, how happy are you and how connected you feel. They found that the. The more interactions people had and the deeper those conversations were, the happier they felt at the end of the study. This was true for extroverts and for introverts. Even the introverts enjoyed more connection and deeper conversations. So this is an invitation to stretch your social muscles, to get off the couch now and then, to go out and take those opportunities more than you think you want. It's okay to relax and have solitude sometimes, but go out and connect more often than you think.

[A]

And I'm just telling that story because I wanna normalize the fact that I think even when you're going to see people that you care about, it is so easy to use the excuse, I don't feel like it. I'm tired. And we all know that you feel better. Nobody wants to go see somebody after a full day of work, and yet you feel more energized after having dinner with a friend. And so, you know, I went a step further because after 73% of you admitted, yeah, I find myself canceling plans, not because anything's happened. I'd just rather stay home and be alone. I thought, okay, well, what is the reason you're canceling plans? And you did not disappoint. Holy smokes. I'm holding in my hands. And this is just the first 60 pages of responses and reasons why people canceled their plans. We're gonna go through an exercise, and as you're listening, I'm gonna narrate this, because in front of Kasley are two glass jars. One says excuse, and the other says need. And what we're gonna go through is we're gonna go through and read these excuses from listeners of this podcast admitting why they cancel plans on Friends, even though they complain they're lonely, and they want more friendship in their life. And let's talk about whether you're creating an excuse that is destroying your social health or this is truly a need and it's important to hold the boundary.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it. Number one, I've carved out time to be with family. I think that's A valid need.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. I love that one.

[B]

Yeah. We need to connect with our family as well. Love it. I have nothing to wear. Excuse.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[B]

I would rather stay in and watch a show based on our conversation. That's an excuse. Sometimes it's okay, but you need to push yourself more often. I feel like I cannot be myself. So that tells me that the friends who you are thinking about going out to spend time with are not the right friends for you. Right.

[A]

But isn't that also an excuse? Because do you not feel like you can be yourself because you constantly withdraw? Are you not pushing your social muscles so you don't like. You get like. Cause I think you can get to a point where your, quote, social anxiety becomes a learned behavior because you're not forcing yourself to go out and learn how to feel like yourself.

[B]

I think what this answer reveals, I feel like I cannot be myself is those limiting beliefs that can happen when we're too isolated.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We go into social situations feeling guarded because we're thinking things like this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Rather than just freeing ourselves to actually be ourselves. And if those people are your people, they will love you for who you are.

[A]

Great. So where would you put that?

[B]

So I'm going to say that you're

[A]

going to rip it in half and put it in both.

[B]

If I have to choose, I'll put it as a need. With the nuances that we've talked about. I'd rather be with my pet.

[A]

Oh, well, so would I.

[B]

But that's excuse. I'm feeling lazy. Also an excuse. Of course. You know, you need to take care of your own needs. But generally, excuse me, I don't have the funds to go out with friends. This is a great one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is an excuse because it does not have to be expensive to spend time with other people. You can go to someone's house. You can go to a park. Think about ways that are free or inexpensive to spend time with each other. It does not have to cost a lot of money.

[A]

I'm glad you said that because I thought you were going to say, this is a need. It's one thing not to agree to go out to some fancy dinner that you can't afford.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But don't let it become an excuse to not make different plans or to not say, hey, I just can't afford that, but I still want to see you.

[B]

For sure. Absolutely. I am completely run down and burnt out. I hear this a lot. I think that people are so overwhelmed and burnt out that it is getting in the way of their social health. It is preventing them from developing friendships and having the energy to connect. And so I have a lot of compassion for it. But here's the thing. Supportive friendships might be the very thing that stop you from feeling burned out and exhausted. Right. We know that positive connection re energizes us. It's a source of resilience. It brings us joy and purpose. So actually, that is the exact thing that you need when you are feeling burned out.

[A]

Now, let me just make sure I am tracking because I think this is very important. Because when I. I went through the hundreds of pages of excuses and reasons why you are canceling plans and can't see friends, the biggest one was, I'm tired. And I get that too. I mean, I just admitted that I'm already feeling tired thinking about leaving the house on Saturday to see people I love. But what I wanna make sure that we all took away from the research and what you just said is that unless you are in a state of medical burnout and you need to be sleep and resting for your health, which is a need, you're saying that the thing that you're avoiding because you feel tired from work or burnt out from caregiving, that social connection is the exact antidote. Like it's the exact medicine you need.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

In order to lift yourself back up. In fact, it's so counterintuitive.

[B]

It is counterintuitive, but it's beautiful. I love it. I love the idea that when you are going through a difficult time and life feels overwhelming and you are exhausted, the very purpose of our lives is to spend time with people we care about. Right. What are we burned out and working so hard for if not to then be able to spend time with the people we love? And so that purpose is the reason to get through that hard time. And it's the way to get through that hard time.

[A]

Amazing. Thank you for unpacking that one. Because being tired and burnt out is the single most frequent thing I saw in everybody's responses.

[B]

And it's one of the most common questions I get as well. Okay, so we are going to say that that's a need or an excuse.

[A]

Excuse. I am so glad that you're here. This is such an important topic. And what I love about your research is how it elevates the importance of. And I just have so many more questions, but I want to hit the pause button because I've got to give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words. And you let me talk to you as you're listening, I want to give you a chance to share this episode with everybody that's popping in your mind. I mean, you could just copy and paste the link and text it to a friend and say, I was just listening to this podcast episode and I immediately thought of you and I missed you. There are so many incredible tips and tools on how to be closer, communicate better, feel more connected. And I know anybody that you send this to is gonna see this as a gift that you just gave them and it's gonna bring you closer. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. I wanna tell you about our sponsor, no Bull. Nobl is a footwear brand built for training and daily life. They have these incredible all day knit shoes that are perfect for running errands, working out, and everything in between. It means you don't need to switch shoes throughout your day. The all day knit from Noble gives you one less thing to think about. And by the way, you need fewer things to think about and fewer things that get in your way. That's the whole idea behind Noble, a footwear brand that's designed to support you as you build your physical, mental and emotional strength. Because real strength, it's not built on perfect conditions. You build it in the middle of real life when you're busy moving from one thing to the next and you just keep showing up. You just need the all day knit for your whole day. Exclusively for the Mel Robbins podcast listeners, no Bull is offering 35% off your first order. Visit nobullproject.com and use code MEL for 35% off your entire first order. That's www.n o b u l l P R O J E c t. No bullproject.com and use code MEL for 35% off. I want to tell you about one of our sponsors that I use, Enjoy and love every single day Aura digital frames. And you need to know about this because Mother's Day is coming up. And can we agree on something? Flowers are beautiful. I love flowers, but after two or three days, they can look pretty rough on the kitchen counter. So how about you give your mom a digital frame that sits on the kitchen counter? That's exactly where mine is. I'm talking about Aura frames. Aura is a digital frame that turns memories into something your mom will see every single day. And the best thing about it is you can preload the digital frame for your mom and send it to her name number one by wirecutter. You can save on the gifts mom love by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time listeners. That's you can get $25 off their best selling Carver Mat FR frame with code MEL A U R A frames.com promo code MEL and support the Mel Robbins Podcast by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. This podcast is brought to you by Expedia. Planning a family vacation is a lot. Everybody has different schedules, different needs and strong opinions. So wouldn't it be nice to have a copilot? Something that makes the planning part way easier. That's where Expedia comes in. Expedia lets you book flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities all in one place. And when you bundle it together, you can save up to 30% plus if plans change, because they always do. At least in my family, Expedia helps you stay in control. Expedia the one place you go to go places Members only Savings vary See site for details. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. You and I are here with Kasli Killam, a Harvard trained social scientist and she's here helping us build better relationships, adult friendships, and we're talking about the importance of your social health. Okay, what's the next excuse?

[B]

I am not drinking and feel like all we do is drink together, so that's fair. You don't have to drink though, right? So I'm gonna put it under excuse because even if your friends are all drinking, you don't have to excuse. My social battery is drained. I love this because as an introvert myself, my own social battery gets drained and so I very much sympathize. You do need a certain amount of alone time. That's healthy. But again, it's a balance. And so I would say I'm going to put this in need, but also understanding that sometimes we can use it as an excuse when in fact we would benefit from connection. I'd rather be with family. What do you think?

[A]

I think it depends on and what I'm starting to gather from excuse versus need is you have to be your own BS detector because if you haven't seen your family, like for example, when my kids come home, my husband and I are empty nesters. I would rather be with family because I don't see my kids all that often and I I want to be there with them while they're home. That said, if you're saying I'd rather be with family because I just like them more than any of my friends and I'd rather be with family because I feel more like myself and I'd rather be with family because it's easier than putting myself out there and building friendships as an adult. That's an excuse.

[B]

Completely agree. Yep. It's very valid to spend time with family, but it can be an excuse where we're not spending time with friends instead.

[A]

You know, as you're hearing the clink, clink, what's happening visually is there's like, two needs, two cards that are needs. And the excuse thing is just starting to pile high here. What's next?

[B]

Oh, this is a good one. I have to do laundry. Excuse.

[A]

Major excuse. You can turn the underwear inside or out or go commando. Right.

[B]

I have social anxiety. This is a good one. I like this because a lot of people have social anxiety, to be honest. Do they say yes, or do they

[A]

just say they have social like cause? Isn't there a diagnosis of having clinical social anxiety versus I'm gonna label the awkwardness, the cringe, and the nervousness that I feel having to shift from going from my house to a new setting as social anxiety.

[B]

It's definitely a spectrum. You're absolutely right about that. But I have been shocked in all my travels, all the events I do, all the conversations I have with people around the world by how often people carry around these vulnerabilities and these beliefs about themselves that make them feel socially anxious. Right. This is incredibly common.

[A]

So let's validate that. Having anxious feelings about putting yourself in social settings is an incredibly common and valid and can be a really challenging thing to deal with. And so if you are dealing with this in your life, I do not want you to hear judgment. I want you to hear validation.

[B]

So let me share two studies that will totally dispel this for people. So, in the first study, researchers paired up two strangers. They had a conversation for a few minutes, and then they separated the strangers, and they asked them individually, how much did you like that person and how much do you think that person liked you?

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And then they compared the results. Okay. What they found is that people consistently underestimate how much the other person liked them. They also had an external person who watched the conversations and rated how much each other liked them, and they got it right. So what this means is that when we are in an interaction, we are thinking the other person doesn't like us as much as they actually do, when even to an outside person, it's obvious that we are hitting it off. So this is a case in point of our own beliefs, our own social anxiety, our own insecurities getting in the way of actually having a meaningful connection. So that's the first study. The second is a study where they had people send notes of appreciation and kind notes, just friendly notes to people they know. It could have been a close loved one. It could have been a casual acquaintance.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Send a text saying, I'm thinking about you. Send an email saying, I know you're going through a hard time. Just wanted to let you know I'm there for you again. What they found is that people consistently underestimated how much that person would appreciate hearing from them. So here we have these studies showing us that people like us more than we think and appreciate hearing from us more than we think. That is reason enough to override that vulnerability, that insecurity, that social anxiety that you're feeling, and go for it. Go for the connection. Because chances are, people like you more than you think and they're going to appreciate connecting with you more than you think.

[A]

So if somebody's reason for not going out is, I feel anxious when I think about going to social situations, is that an excuse or a need?

[B]

It's a valid excuse, right? It's an excuse.

[A]

It's real.

[B]

It shouldn't stop you from going. But that feeling is very valid and very normal.

[A]

So you. The feeling of anxiety about putting yourself in a social situation is valid?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But it's an excuse because based on what the medical experts say, you need to do the thing that you feel nervous about or else those anxious feelings get bigger and bigger and your life gets smaller and smaller. Is that what you're finding in the research?

[B]

That's what we're finding. We're finding that when you put yourself out there, chances are it's going to go better than you think. Not every time, but some of the times, maybe even most of the times. And it's worth putting in that effort, right? It's worth exercising your social muscles and trying, because you never know who you're going to meet, who you are going to not be able to imagine your life without one year from now, who you haven't even met yet today. So it's worth the risk.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Okay, how about this one? I need me time. So we all need some me time. I advocate for that, for sure. But is that a reason to not go out with your friends who are all getting together this weekend? I'm gonna say no. It's an excuse.

[A]

What's profound, as you keep hearing, ting, ting, ting, is that the excuses are stacking up and reaching the top of the jar.

[B]

I think this is good news, actually. I think it's good news that There are so many excuses because now every single one of you listening knows that's not good enough. Right. You're gonna hear Mel and my voice in your head saying, that's an excuse. Go out and connect.

[A]

So what are some of the other excuses?

[B]

Okay. I never get asked questions back. It's annoying.

[A]

Yeah, that is annoying. I agree with you.

[B]

I totally agree.

[A]

It's an excuse. But you need new friends. Right? That's an excuse and a need. It's an excuse that you're using not to go, but you need new friends.

[B]

I'm gonna put it under need because. Exactly. You need some friends where the exchange is mutual. Right. Where they listen as much as they talk, where they give and take. It has to be that mutual exchange.

[A]

So what I'm noticing, and I don't know if you're picking up on this as you're listening or watching, is that the excuses are a lot about how you feel. Every time you've said need, it's typically been because you're recognizing that the people that you're about to go see are not really supportive and that that is triggering something deeper, which is the need is to recognize that you've got to put time and energy into building supportive relationships. And maybe the people that you're about to go see are not truly a match for where you are right now. And that's okay. Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

I think at the heart of all of this is that fundamentally, as humans, we need to feel like we are seen and heard.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like we are accepted for who we are. Like we are loved for who we are.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Every single one of us has that fundamental need. And so if you're having too many interactions and relationships where your authentic part can actually come through, of course that's. That's going to feel more hollow. You can be around people in a crowded room at a party and feel incredibly lonely if you're not seen and felt in deeper ways.

[A]

And here's what I wanna say if that's happening to you, first of all, I'm proud of you for getting out there. And that's not a fun thing to feel. Our son has felt that, like the first year and a half at college. It's not fun to feel like you're putting yourself out there and you're putting yourself out there, but you're not finding people that you truly connect with. And what's important, though, is that the more you put yourself out there, the more likely you are going to meet people. And after a year and a half of just Wanting to isolate and feeling very lonely and being in crowded rooms and being like, I don't drink and why are all these people like, like, am I ever gonna find my people? In college, after a year and a half of this, he just came home for the weekend with nine guys like, and found his people. But if he had made excuse and isolated and made his life small, that never would have happened. But it takes time. And so I want to acknowledge you if you keep doing that because you're doing the work and you will find those people.

[B]

Absolutely. It takes persistent effort. Right.

[A]

So what other excuses you got?

[B]

I'm tired after work.

[A]

I am tired after work. Kazi. Me too.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And sometimes it's okay to rest.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But sometimes you got to get out there.

[A]

How many times have you. Let's be honest with each other. You've been at work all day. You can leave at 5:30 or 6 and go meet your friend for dinner. And you cancel and lie because you say something came up at work.

[B]

We've all done it, every single one of us, myself included. For sure. For sure. And it's okay sometimes. I mean, maybe don't lie. I think you can be honest with your friends.

[A]

Friends. But I don't like you. I don't want to come out. I'm just kidding.

[B]

Say, I'm exhausted. I had a crazy day. I think it's okay sometimes. Right? I do want to bring that nuance to this. It's not always push yourself and get out the door.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But when we're falling back on that as an excuse all of the time. How are you going to make friends? How are you going to meet people? You have to put yourself out there to some extent.

[A]

So is an excuse or a need?

[B]

So many of these. I kind of want to put in both. But I'm going to put it in excuse.

[A]

Here's one rule I want to share that I've made with myself. Because I do have the kind of job, as the CEO of a company this size that lots of stuff piles up, that I have a rule with myself that if I have to push something off or cancel plans, I'm not allowed to do it unless I have an alternative date that I am suggesting to move it to.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

What's the next one in the stack?

[B]

I am stressed.

[A]

I am too.

[B]

I'm gonna say it's an excuse.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now with full compassion.

[A]

Kasli, you're the researcher and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm so excited about this topic and I have so many questions. And because you are pioneering this whole focus on social health, it's a pillar of a fulfilling life. Can you explain to us why, in moments of stress, that connection, friendship, seeing a friend and making the effort, even when you're stressed is exactly what your body and your brain and your life needs? What does the research say about this?

[B]

Sure. There's literally a theory called stress buffering hypothesis. This is the idea that when we are with other people, it's. It buffers the effects of stress in our body. So rather than whatever the stress you're going through, releasing cortisol and keeping you in this heightened state, which increases inflammation and makes you more susceptible to diseases, it buffers against that. It quells that biological process entirely so that you are actually going to be less stressed out afterwards.

[A]

Well, it's true.

[B]

The social health pillar reinforces the mental health pillar pillar and the physical health pillar. They are all connected. So when you invest in your social health, it also has benefits for your mental health. Right. You are going to be less stressed. You're going to be able to be more resilient. You're going to feel like you can get through those hard times. I interviewed a caregiver for my book who talked about caregiving for her dad as he was going through cancer and actually, unfortunately passed away. And she was a nurse, so she was really used to caregiving. Right. That was part of her every day. And while that time was incredibly meaningful, getting to care for her dad, to be with him, it was also really hard. It was isolating. She felt very alone. She felt exhausted. Right. And it affected her mental health in a big way. She shared that she was even suicidal at one point because she was so overwhelmed with the loneliness and the grief of that time period. And then she connected to this program that matched her with other caregivers for conversations to just talk about what they were going through. And it completely saved her life. It made her realize, wow, first of all, I'm not alone. And the support that I'm getting from knowing there are other caregivers being able to talk about this together, it feels incredible. And what she told me was that she wished she had opened up to more of her family and friends about it as well, because she realized they could have been that source of support too, but she felt like she had to go through it alone.

[A]

Kasley, thank you for telling us that story, because I want to broaden it out a little bit, because while we've been focusing on the excuses that we use to not see the friend to not make the effort, to not show up at the book club, to not do that thing after work, which then makes our life feel small, which makes us feel lonelier, which makes us become more isolated. We also create excuses to not get grief counseling. We also create excuses to not go to that Zoom meeting for caregivers or other parents of young kids. And so there are opportunities everywhere. And you can go through this, okay, well, am I making an excuse? What do I actually need? And over and over again, your research is saying what you need is you need social health, that this impacts mental health and physical health. This isn't a nice to have. This is a requirement. And one of the reasons why you may be struggling is because you focused on other things, but you've let this go. Absolutely amazing example.

[B]

One of the best ways to get out of that lonely state is to find groups of people who are going through what you're going through. It's a sense of support that's going to help you navigate that change and also provide that ongoing interaction that we all need.

[A]

I see more excuses piled up there. We got 25. And what else we got?

[B]

All right, let's go through them. I don't feel confident and have been feeling ugly. Oh, yeah. I mean, I have a lot of compassion for that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, that is very real. Feeling insecure about anything, something that's visible to other people or not is really, really hard. So I have a lot of compassion for this. And also, I want you to still push yourself. Right. And I know it's hard. It's like when you work out for the first time after a long time of not having worked out. And it's so hard. That workout you go to the gym, you just feel like you're dead, right? The first few times. It might not go well. It might be really hard when you go out and see people, but it is still worth pushing through that and building up the confidence. The people who are your people aren't going to care how you look. Right. They're going to love you even when you're not feeling your best. And that's what we should be looking for. We should be looking for the friends who we can be honest and say, I feel like crap, I feel ugly, and I'm feeling really insecure lately. And that's what I'm going through. And let them support you through that.

[A]

You know, I have someone in my life who was having a lot of issues with hormonal acne and started to cancel plans because of this. And I said, to this person. Well, you go to work with it. How about you go see your friends and just talk about how much it's bothering you? And one night out with friends, being honest about how much they were struggling with this and how it was impacting them made such a. A huge difference because they learned that they weren't alone. They learned about some things that they could try. They got the validation and the connection and the support that they really needed and weren't getting. Hiding alone and covering everything up and pretending everything was okay. And just exactly. Kasli, as you've been talking to us about the research, it was exactly what they needed. Even though the thought of doing it felt like, there's no way I could handle this.

[B]

Sharing what you're going through takes the power out of. Completely takes the power out of it. Right. Suddenly there's this relief that comes with that. So is that a need or an excuse?

[A]

Why do you feel bad about the excuses? I think it's just helping people because

[B]

I care about people's emotional well being too. But I'm gonna say it's an excuse, but I have tremendous, tremendous compassion for that.

[A]

Could you reflect on the size of the excuses versus true needs to have boundaries and to really protect your energy?

[B]

So there are a lot more excuses than there are needs in these jars. And what this reveals to us is that, yes, sometimes we do need to take care of our needs, and that's extremely valid. But most of the time, chances are you're making an excuse and you need to get out there and invest in making new friends, in deepening your connections, because it is going to pay dividends for your life.

[A]

This is so helpful. And I can almost feel you as you're listening or watching, nodding along. I can feel you exhaling and going, okay, I can do this. And more importantly, I need to do this. So while we take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor, I want you to do me a favor. If someone that you love has been feeling lonely, if they've gone through a major life change, if they've moved, if you've had a friend drifting away and you don't know what to do about it, just take a chance. Share this episode with them. Because what you're learning is one text, one phone call, one quick check in, and a simple link to a podcast episode. Hey, I've been thinking about you. You. It can bring you closer to people, and it can also remind you that there are people in your life that you love, that the relationships that you build are a huge part of what makes your life meaningful. And it starts with you. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. So stay with me. You know that feeling when your brain is fried? You have like 12 irritating tasks you don't care about, but you have to do them anyway. That's where I've been lately. The administrative stuff was eating up half my day, so I've been using Microsoft Copilot as my extra set of hands. It's like having your own personal assistant. That's why Microsoft Copilot is my favorite AI tool. Last week I had to send this long, overly complicated email about scheduling and travel, the kind of thing that takes up way too much energy for what it is. I open Copilot talk to it out loud while I was walking around my kitchen and Copilot turned it into a clean, professional draft. It was amazing. And because my brain wasn't fried, I had the energy to sit down and eat dinner with Chris without feeling mentally wiped. That's the whole point for me. Microsoft Copilot clears the clutter so I can be more present for the moments that matter. That's why I'm using it. If you want to try it for yourself, visit Microsoft.com Melrobbins to download the Copilot app. Get started with Copilot today for free and see how hand cutting off the small stuff gives you more energy for the moments that matter. That's Microsoft.com melrobbins you know, I'm a real homebody and one of my favorite life hacks is having your home reflect who you are, not who you used to be or what you think it's supposed to look like. Just you now and Ashley has pieces that fit whatever your style is. In fact, I'm scrolling Ashley's site right now and I am immediately drawn to the pieces in the serene Bay Outdoor collection. Oh my gosh. My personal style. It's cozy and functional. The pieces in this collection feel elevated but still livable. But what I love most about Ashley is that every piece doesn't just look great, they're built for real life with features like stain resistant fabrics that are easy to clean and even machine washable cushion cover. Plus Ashley offers white glove deliveries so everything is brought right into your home and set up where you want it, making the entire process easy from start to finish. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your style. Oh my gosh. Isn't there something really satisfying about growing your own herbs and vegetables from the garden to table freshness to the simple boost that comes from spending time outside Bonnie Plants makes it easy to grow a healthy, thriving vegetable and herb garden at great value. With more than 200 starter plants, there's plenty of variety for you to choose from. And starting with starter plants instead of seeds means a quicker harvest. So even if you plant later in the season, you can still enjoy fresh vegetables and herbs sooner. Find Bonnie Plants at your local garden center today or visit Bonnie Plants. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel Robbins. Today you and I are here with Kasli Killam, a Harvard trained social scientist, and we're talking all about social health and building better friendships and connections as an adult. Kasli, in your research, was there any connection between how much people are working and how hard adult friendship is?

[B]

This is a great question. So, Mel, 77% of Americans work more than 40 hours a week. And to be honest, everyone I know works more than 40 hours a week.

[A]

Yeah, and then you throw in pets and kids and family and commuting and.

[B]

And it's like, where is the time, right? How do I even make time for friendships? And so this brings me to this idea that I think is really important, which is that but connection doesn't have to be time consuming for it to be meaningful. So there are a lot of great studies showing that even a simple text message or a 10 minute phone call, a 10 minute phone call can literally reduce loneliness for someone. Okay? Taking five minutes to express gratitude someone. These are really small, momentary things that actually make a difference. So one of my recommendations for people is that to go for connection first.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So throughout the day, maybe we are in a meeting that ends five minutes early. And what do we do to fill that five minutes? We scroll on our phones, right? We look at social media, we read the news headlines, right? Or maybe you are standing in line waiting for something. Again, you pull out the phone, you're scrolling to just kill that time. Instead, I want you to go for connection first. So if you pull out your phone, text a friend, don't go on social media, right? If you are in the car commuting or on the bus or the metro commuting to work, right? Instead of immediately putting in a podcast, unless it's this one, of course.

[A]

No, it's okay. I want you to be connected. You can listen to this while you're walking alone.

[B]

So instead of a podcast or music, call a family member, call a friend who you haven't talked to in a while.

[A]

Actually, that's one thing that I do a lot when I'M in the car. Even if I only have 10 minutes, I call people.

[B]

I love that. And you can say, I only have 10 minutes or I only have five minutes. But I was thinking about you and just wanted to say hi. How's your day?

[A]

It makes a big difference.

[B]

It does make a difference because those are just small moments that help keep that relationship alive. It helps us to feel connected in the day to day.

[A]

So go for the connection.

[B]

Go for connection first.

[A]

How are you supposed to meet people organically when no one looks up anymore?

[B]

Anymore? Isn't it frustrating?

[A]

It's just kind of depressing. Yeah.

[B]

And we're all guilty of it. I'm guilty of it sometimes too. I think what's interesting about that is that we've sort of optimized for convenience instead of connection.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. It's way more convenient to just be on your phones or to order delivery or to put on your headphones rather than engage with each other. And I think that's a missed opportunity. So my recommendation here would be to do what you love with others. So find a hobby or an interest of yours that you can do with other people. Right. And so I'm not suggesting something like yoga, where you're not actually going to have actually talk to the other people, but something like volunteering in a soup kitchen that you care about or participating in a sport that allows you to talk together, or arts and crafts graphs, things like this, Right? If you love hiking, go find a hiking group. If you love painting, go take a painting class. Right? If you care about some local cause, go support that. Those are opportunities to meet new people who share your interests. You already have something in common and it depressurizes the situation. Right. It's not like sitting one on one trying to make a good impression. You're doing a shared activity that's really important. The research is clear that we need shared experiences in order to develop friendships. We also need consistent touch points. Right? So if you join a local group that you care about, that's going to allow you to see those people on a regular basis. That's the recipe for meeting new people. And then take action within that to actually develop friendships. If there's someone there who really like,

[A]

what's one simple guideline that we can use to start to create the amount of connections that you need to have a fulfilling life, better friendships, and to just be happier overall.

[B]

So, mel, I have three blocks here. I'm going to share with you the 531 formula for social health. Okay? So you should aim to Interact with five different people each week to keep at least three close relationships and to spend one hour a day connecting.

[A]

One hour a day.

[B]

Does that sound like a lot or a little to you?

[A]

It sounds like a lot.

[B]

Okay, so what I love about that is that that reveals something about your personal preferences. Right. To some people, one hour seems like not a lot at all because they're actually getting a lot more than that.

[A]

Is it one hour with one person?

[B]

Not necessarily.

[A]

Okay, so I can say hello to the barista for a minute. There's a minute. I can hang out with colleagues for five minutes. There's six minutes. I can spend 20 minutes with my husband. Okay, exactly. Yes. An hour a day. I'm in. I thought you meant, like, deep thoughts.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Eye contact, hour long every day.

[B]

No, an hour total a day to have those different moments where you're connecting with people. And a work meeting doesn't count. Right. If you spend some of that work meeting catching up personally, that counts. But we're talking about total time where you're connecting and socializing and hanging out.

[A]

Okay. And it can be strangers that you're chit chatting with and complimenting. It can be with people that you're close to. It can be lunch with colleagues. It could be chatting after or before a meeting. Something that's a little bit more. It's a phone call with a friend.

[B]

It could be a phone call, absolutely.

[A]

What about texting back and forth with somebody? I mean, you said no. I literally, like, kind of rolled her eyes at me, Everybody.

[B]

So cumulatively, you want to spend an hour with other people, even if it's over the phone or virtually.

[A]

Okay, so voice is important. So either you need to be speaking or the other people need to be speaking for this to count.

[B]

Right. And ideally it's in person, but that's not always realistic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We all have friends and family who are spreading out. So one hour a day total with a variety of different people, keep three relationships close. So there's a lot of research kind of showing the. The minimum amount of close relationships that we need and the minimum amount of. Of socializing that we need. Right. That we thrive on the five in particular. So interact with five different people each week. That's based on the fact that we are more socially healthy when we have diverse ties. So if the only person you socialize with is your husband, that's not healthy. It's good to also talk to your friends, to have family members, to have co workers who you're connecting with. Right. To have a variety not just in the kinds of relationships, but also in the people themselves. So are you interacting with people who are different from you? Right. Who have different beliefs, who have different interests, who come from different backgrounds? That is actually also really socially healthy. Healthy. So aim for five different people each week who you're interacting with. Three close relationships and one hour a day.

[A]

We can do that. Thank you. That was so helpful. I love a framework. So based on 15 years of research as a social scientist, you say that there are four different friendship styles. What are they all?

[B]

Right, so the first style is a butterfly. We've all heard of social butterflies. Butterflies thrive on frequent casual connection. So if you think about a butterfly in nature, they flutter from flower to flower, they're pollinating the flowers, they're drinking nectar. A butterfly in a social context is someone who's really comfortable socializing with people. Right? Has an easy time striking up conversation, makes people feel comfortable, and really enjoys kind of casual connection. They're a great party guest, great party host for that reason. That's a butterfly. The second is a wallflower. So a wallflower is someone who enjoys selective, infrequent connection. So this is someone who just like a wallflower in the wild, it's kind of grows along the walls and it blooms in the springtime, but otherwise it's kind of hides away. Right? A wallflower in a social context is someone who prefers to be a listener. Right? Take some time to warm up and get comfortable with people, but they're really paying attention and often is really good at empathizing. So that's a wallflower. The third style is a firefly. So a firefly is someone who enjoys infrequent but deep connection. So someone who loves a lot of solitude, but when they're with their friends and family, skips straight past the small talk and loves having those deeper conversations. So think about fireflies in the wild. They glow in synchrony with other fireflies and then they disappear into them. Night sky. That's like a firefly in a social situation who loves coming alive for those deeper conversations and then fades away and likes to be alone. The last style is an evergreen. So just like an evergreen in the wild, it's green all year round, always. Right. An evergreen is someone who loves a lot of deep connection. So it's someone who is constantly in communication with their close friends and family. And they are going deep all the time. Right? They're really brought alive by those deeper conversations, and they're constantly socializing.

[A]

So why does it matter to know what your Friendship style is whether you're a wallflower, which I just realized one of my closest friends is whether you're a butterfly, which I realize another one of my friends is, or whether you are the firefly or you are a deep connection person and evergreen, primarily evergreen.

[B]

So it matters because first of all, it's helpful self insight, right? It's understanding ourselves better. What are your preferences? What is your comfort zone? What are the social situations in which you're going to feel totally relaxed and confident, and how can you create more of those and seek those out? Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It also is helpful in the context of a friendship to know what the other person's style is, is because it's very easy, for example, to be offended if we don't hear from someone all the time, or the opposite, to feel drained when someone's reaching out more than you want. Right. And in fact, it might not be personal at all. It might just be a reflection of what their style is. Right? Some people want to hang out all the time, some people don't. And that's not something we necessarily need to take personally. So I think having these conversations helps people to just normalize. We're all different. There's not one that's better than the other. Each of these has qualities that are fantastic, and each of them has their own challenges that they need to work through.

[A]

How do you keep closeness with a friend when it's long distance?

[B]

So I love this question. Most of my friends don't live near me, unfortunately, so I have to grapple with this a lot. I've lived in a lot of different cities and countries and made friends wherever I go. And. And so the reality is when you move even once, suddenly you're faced with this challenge of staying in touch. So I would say there are three things to keep in mind. The first is those micro moments of connection, right? It's the swap strategy. It's the go for connection first, right? When you think of someone, send them a text. So those little moments of connection, send an audio note, send a photo, things like that, just to stay in touch. The second is what I call putting it on autopilot. So what I mean by this is that you can schedule time to have those touch points, right? Schedule a monthly call with your friend who lives in another city. This is what I do with my closest friend. We have a monthly calendar invitation to catch up over Zoom or on FaceTime. What that does is that allows us to release any responsibility for logistics, right? It puts it out of our heads. We know we're gonna have that dedicated time to have wine or coffee on a video call together each month. Right. So it's taking out the grunt work. Have you seen those memes where people are like, adulting or adult friendship is just saying, hey, we should meet up. What's your schedule like in three months?

[A]

Yes. Or three years.

[B]

Or three years.

[A]

We're just sharing memes back and forth, which are basically all of my long distance friendships. It's how we stay in touch every day.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And some of that's great. Right. But the point is just put it on the calendar, put it on autopilot so that you have those conversations already scheduled. You don't need to think about it. And then the last piece is trying to have quality time in person whenever you can. So, you know, if you're on a work trip that brings you to a different city, see what friend you can, you can schedule time with then or rethink your vacations. Rather than it just being about traveling with your. Your family, why not travel with your friends? Friends?

[A]

I absolutely love that we move to new locations to be near family. You can do it with friends. We schedule vacations to spend time with family, and you can plan those things with friends. What do you do when a friend is entering a new phase of life? They fall in love, they get divorced, they have a baby, they change jobs, they move. And you start to feel like you're getting left behind. Behind.

[B]

You can have an honest conversation and say, hey, I feel like your life is changing and I'm so happy for you. And also, I miss you and I want to stay connected. What can that look like for us in this new phase? And just have an open conversation.

[A]

What do you do if you sense someone is distancing themselves and you've got this feeling like, did I do something wrong? Like, what's happening?

[B]

So I would say to get curious and to empathize. Right. I think it's really easy to immediately jump to conclusions and take it personally when it might not be at all. It could be that your friend is going through something and actually what they need is you to say, hey, I'm here if you need to talk. Right. So I would say get curious, Ask them. Right. I think it's so underrated to just have real conversations with the people in our lives. Say, hey, you know, I've. I've noticed we're a little more distant recently. I just wanted to check in and see if everything's okay. Start there. Start from a place of care and wanting to empathize and understand. And if it is something that's personal, then maybe that's something you can work through.

[A]

And also a lot of times you don't realize what somebody else is going through. Like, I remember when my friendship started to feel a little bit more. More strained when I was in my kind of early to mid-40s, I was going through a major crisis in my financial life and a crisis of confidence. And it was a disaster. And I didn't tell anybody about it. I just put my head down, got like three different jobs and tried to hold my life together. And I'm sure a lot of people from the outside thought, well, either she thinks she's better than we are or. Or where did she go? Or who knows what they thought. But I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want anyone to know the crisis that I was in. And so I love that invitation to lean in. The reason why you feel sad about it or concerned about it because you miss this person and you don't know what's going on. So just being a good friend means asking if everything's okay. What actually does make you a good friend?

[B]

That's definitely part of it. I think also we, you know, what you shared about that really resonates with me. When I was in high school, my parents were going through a difficult divorce. I didn't talk about it with any of my friends.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I literally just stayed clammed up. I was the lead in the school play, I seemed happy, I was going to parties. And really internally I was going through a really hard time. And I look back on that now and I think, think what a missed opportunity, right? Because I didn't even give my friends the chance to care for me, to show up for me. People who actually loved me didn't even know I was struggling. So it takes being willing to be vulnerable, to invite people into our inner worlds and then to support them when they're going through something. Right? It's that bi directional exchange. What I look for in close friendship, based on the research, is that it's mutual and it's meaningful. So the mutual part in a given conversation, maybe one person is talking more than the other. But on the whole, in a friendship, it needs to feel like there's that mutual exchange that give and that take, right? That support and that receiving support. Maybe one year your friend is going through a divorce and they need you more at that time. But then the next year you're going through something, right? So it's that even exchange and then the meaningful piece is really about can you be your authentic self? Can you show up and bring the messy and bring the good and have fun together? Right. Is it time together that you really enjoy? So those two pieces are really important.

[A]

Now, based on the research, what are the fastest and most effective ways to deepen a friendship?

[B]

Well, there's no quick way.

[A]

Okay, but is there a way?

[B]

There are many ways. Absolutely. And I think we've talked about about some of them. Right. We've talked about opening up more. I think one of the most underrated ways to deepen a friendship is to be curious, to ask questions and to really genuinely listen, not just wait for your turn to talk. So a while back, I hosted this event where we brought together 15 young people and 15 older people, and we paired them up for intergenerational conversation, and we had them answer questions with each other. Things like, tell me your life story in four minutes or what is a challenge that you're going through right now? Or what's something you're really proud of from your life? Right. The kinds of questions that you don't usually ask a stranger. Right up front. And first of all, it was a beautiful experience because some people laughed, some people cried. It instantly bonded them together. But what stood out most to me was a comment at the end when we all gathered together to reflect by one of the younger men who said, I can't believe I don't have conversations like this all the time with my friends, with the friends my own age, with the friends who are already in my life. If I had conversations like this, if I ask questions like this, I would feel so much more connected. So I think a lot of times we're together, but we're not necessarily actually getting at the heart of what's going on for each of us. So ask different questions and listen and care and connect around that.

[A]

If you had to distill everything that you've taught us today and all this research around the importance of social, health, connection, friendship, being proactive, confronting your excuses why this matters so much. If you had to distill this down into the single most important takeaway for the person who's listening, listening, what would that be?

[B]

If you did nothing else after today's conversation other than being more present in the interactions you're already having. So when you have dinner with your family, or when you're in a meeting with your co workers, or when you're standing in line at the coffee shop, if you were just more present and looked up and actually asked questions and engaged with people already you would start to feel better, right?

[A]

Immediately.

[B]

Immediately.

[A]

Wow. One phone call can start to turn around the loneliness and the lack of friendship that you have.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know, I have a quick story to tell you. Cause I think this is really important. Cameron, one of our amazing producers, produced this episode with a bunch of colleagues. And because of your work, she started reflecting on the fact that she lives in this building. And there was a couple that lives a couple floors down, and they'd always hung out. She said kind of more with the guys because she lives with her boyfriend. And I guess this person lives with their significant other, and there's a bunch of guys in the building. And it occurred to her, because of your work, I should reach out to this person and just go have dinner. And so she pushed through the cringe and that awkward feeling and the anxiousness that people have about, you know, putting themselves in a new situation socially. And she went and had dinner with this woman. And at the end of the dinner, the woman said to Cameron, I am so happy you did this. Thank you for doing this. And then invited her to her book club. Now Cameron has joined this book club, has 10 new female friends, all because of one text. That's how quickly this can turn around. And I truly believe some of your most favorite people you haven't even met yet. And yes, the world is overwhelming, and yes, work is exhausting, and yes, you have lots of things to do, but your work has really elevated the significance of your social health. But it's not somebody else's responsibility. Just like nobody else can make you get in shape, nobody else can make you get through a really low moment. Nobody else can get you out of bed in the morning. You have to do that for yourself. And this is something that's really important that you need to do for yourself.

[B]

I think the fact that you polled everyone and most people said they want more friends is reason enough for everyone to go and put themselves out there and try to make new friends. Because we're all sitting here saying, I want more friends. Go be friends. Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

People are going to be receptive to it. Yes, chances are, more often than not. And so it's worth taking those steps, introducing yourself, striking up conversation. At any age, you can become more socially healthy. Just like at any age or any life stage, you can become more physically and mentally healthy. Right. This is always fluid. It's always within our control to strengthen.

[A]

Kasley Killam, what are your parting words?

[B]

What I love most about social health is that it doesn't just benefit you, it benefits the people who you connect with. And that's not true of physical and mental health. When you go to the gym or when you go to therapy, that indirectly benefits other people because you show up better in their lives. Lives when you're physically and mentally stronger. But social health directly benefits the other person. When you have a conversation with a friend, when you smile at a neighbor across the street, when you get coffee with a co worker, those moments benefit both you and the other person. And that's what I love.

[A]

Wow, that's so true. What a beautiful thing to end on. So if you don't do it for yourself, do it for everybody else.

[B]

Absolutely. Taking care of your social health is a way to change your life and change the world.

[A]

I love that. Thank you so much for everything you taught us today.

[B]

Thank you, Mel.

[A]

You're welcome. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for caring enough about yourself that you spent time listening to an episode about friendship and connection and your social health health. I hope by the end of this conversation, like right now, you realize how much this matters and you realize that the power is in your hands to change it. And as your friend, I'm going to tell you something. In case nobody else tells you, I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And one thing that our conversation today convinced me of is that social health is one of the requirements of creating a better life. And it's something that you can change right now with a phone call, a text, just a little bit of effort. And I really hope you make it because it will make your life a heck of a lot better. All righty. I will be waiting for you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. I almost never wear lipstick. My lips have been so chapped recently that I've been and, you know, keeping this between my legs every once in a while, I'm like this.

[B]

It's cold out.

[A]

Yes. Okay.

[B]

That's how I sign my emails.

[A]

Kill them with kindness. Oh, I love. That's way better than best. Oh, my God. That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. Okay. We're gonna have an amazing time.

[B]

All right.

[A]

All right, here we go. You're doing great, by the way.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I feel like the sinus is coming back. That's a wrap. Let's get out here of of here. Well done, guys. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

[B]

SiriusXM podcasts. At Strayer University, we help students like you go from Is it possible? To anything is possible by offering accident to up to 10 no cost gen Ed courses so you can reach your goals affordably and fast. Visit Strayer. Edu to learn more. No cost Gen Ed is provided by Strayer University Affiliate sofia. Eligibility rules apply. Connect with us for details. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of

[A]

Angie, and one thing I've learned is

[B]

that you buy a house, but you make it a home home. Because with every fix, update and renovation it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your [e-mail].