Top Integrative Doctor Explains “Cortisol Addiction” | Jaban Moore Ep 233

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast

Episode 233 – Top Integrative Doctor Explains “Cortisol Addiction” | Dr. Jabin Moore

Date: May 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Mikhaila Peterson welcomes Dr. Jabin Moore, a renowned integrative doctor specializing in complex chronic illness, to discuss the intricate “toxin loop,” cortisol addiction, and the web of chronic health conditions—from mold toxicity to long Covid and Lyme disease. Dr. Moore details his investigative approach to diagnosing and treating tough cases that defy traditional medicine. The conversation delves deeply into stress, trauma, environmental toxins, immune system dysregulation, and why many high achievers become chronically ill. They emphasize the importance of personalized solutions, cautious protocols, and the ongoing impact of psychological and physiological stress on health.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Dr. Jabin Moore’s Background & Approach

[01:35–02:41]

• Runs a global virtual clinic from Kansas City, Missouri, focusing on “mystery” patients who have struggled to find answers.
• Self-described as a "healthcare detective":

  "I run labs, I ask questions until I figure out how we can get results. And then we confirm those results again, back with the labs and everything else we're doing." (A, 01:17)

• Specializes in chronic conditions (Lyme, mold, radioactive element toxicities, MCAS/‘long’ illnesses).

2. Complexity of Chronic Illness & Personalized Protocols

[02:56–04:27]

• No two patients are on the same path; underlying causes can range from toxins and trauma to genetics and mindset.
• Focus on uncovering what burdens (physical or emotional) impair each unique patient’s resilience and energy.
• Chronic exposure to stress or infection can lower defenses, leading to multifactorial illness.

3. Jabin’s Personal Health Journey

[05:02–07:44]

• Suffered from Lyme while being extremely fit, illustrating that chronic illness isn't always visible.
• Found solutions through functional medicine and a mentor after self-research during the early 2010s (pre-Instagram, fewer resources).

4. Diagnostic & Assessment Strategy

[08:34–11:15]

• Orders physiological tests alongside medical history (organic acids, hair tissue mineral analysis, standard bloodwork).
• Extensive inquiry into early-life trauma, personality traits (A-type, people-pleaser), and longstanding symptoms to inform further testing:

  “People that tell me that they... have a propensity to be more a type or people pleasing... it starts telling me about their genetics and some of the wiring that may take energy from them.” (A, 09:32)

5. “Burnout” at the Cellular Level

[12:33–16:32]

• Burnout isn’t just psychological: mitochondrial dysfunction can be measured via basic and advanced labwork.
• Markers: high albumin (mineral depletion), low ALT/AST (liver underfunctioning), low creatinine (detox impairment), and suboptimal kidney function (GFR).
• Organic acid tests and hair analyses show metabolic blockages and mineral deficits, linking them to fatigue, brain fog, and poor resilience.

Notable Moment:

“I can't ask a person in bankruptcy to give me more money. I can't ask you, when you're energy bankrupt, to go do more stuff... without giving you energy back.” (A, 18:33)

6. Supplement Intolerance & Root Cause Complexity

[19:01–25:56]

• Some patients (e.g., the Petersons) cannot tolerate basic supplements (magnesium, B vitamins) despite needing them.
• Not an allergy, but a downstream effect: supplement triggers energy production, which mobilizes toxins, leading to reactions (insomnia, agitation)—often a histamine/mast cell response, not classic detox.
• Protocol: extremely slow microdosing, use of mast cell stabilizers, and removing obstacles (mold, heavy metals, psych med residues).

7. Heavy Metals, Water Quality, and “Toxin Blind Spots”

[25:56–30:51]

• Hair rather than blood is preferred for chronic heavy metal screening; blood only detects acute/high-level exposure.
• Some stubborn cases trace back to overlooked exposures (radioactive/contaminated water).
• Only water distillation or new reverse osmosis filters can reliably remove certain radioactive contaminants.

8. The “Neurotoxic Loop” and Cortisol Addiction

[50:20–55:19]

• Chronic exposures (chemical or emotional) drive cortisol up, eventually becoming toxic.
• Even after removing a root cause (e.g., mold), the chronic elevated stress response can persist (“internal PTSD”), creating a feedback loop that perpetuates illness:

  “Now we're having an unsafe feeling response. That unsafe feeling generates more cortisol and then you're toxic. So you create another immune response and it becomes a self-perpetuating problem. Even if you moved out of the mold. That's the toxin loop.” (A, 00:00; 51:40)

• Trauma (present or past) and environmental stressors feed into the same immune-hormonal loop.

9. MCAS, Mast Cell Degranulation, and “Herxing”

[45:34–48:55]

• For severely sensitive patients, even positive change can provoke symptoms (any input is perceived as a threat).
• Solution: titrate everything to microdoses with parallel anti-inflammatory strategies; worth monitoring the “hermetic stress” threshold.
• Categorically, "any change is too much for the system"—healing responses and flares are not always a sign of improvement.

Notable Quote:

“Any change good or bad, so then of course you're going to have a reaction if you're trying to physiologically change the way your mast cells are responding. Because now they're like... if you turn me down, my organism will die. Which is you.” (A, 46:46)

10. Energy Budgeting & “Cortisol Addiction” Among High Achievers

[61:33–65:46]

• High achievers (not just CEOs—can be parents, anyone ‘on the go’) often run well past their true energy capacity, borrowing from tomorrow (cortisol-driven).
• Dr. Moore illustrates “energy bankruptcy” with an analogy:

  “Let's do what I do with some clients. We're going to take $100 bank account... $50 is just being alive... mold takes 20, being a mom another 10, wife/daughter 15, and soon you're at 150 on a hundred dollar budget... Why are you not out of fight or flight?” (A, 61:59)

• The solution is twofold: offload tasks, reduce unnecessary inputs, and recognize the need to heal—not just keep going through force of will.

Notable Quote:

“Your brain, if you're a driven person, isn't operating from a position of what's optimal for my body. It's willpower. And willpower can make you do a lot of things that aren't necessarily good...” (A, 61:33)

11. Technology, AI, and the Future of Personalized Medicine

[68:28–74:22]

• Both discuss using AI and apps to scale diagnostic expertise and provide interactive health assessments.
• Caution: AI can perpetuate “bought and paid for” medical narratives; curation and authentic practitioner input remain crucial.

12. Ethical Concerns in the Digital Health and Marketing Space

[74:27–77:13]

• Rapid evolution of AI deepfakes and influencer marketing creates risks of fraud, misinformation.
• Authenticity, transparency, and trusted voices in health information are more important than ever.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On supplement intolerance and the cellular response:

  “If I give you nutrients... what are you using the energy to do that would trigger a reaction?” (A, 20:36)

• On the nervous system's “Danger Mode”:

  “Once you get to a point... where you are in the cell danger response state, you attack everything. Immediately.” (A, 43:07)

• On burnout and overdrive:

  “You're addicted to cortisol.” (A, 65:04)

• On ‘cortisol toxicity’ and the self-perpetuating stress loop:

  “You can get toxic to your own hormones because they accumulate. You've heard of estrogen dominance, toxic estrogen, right? So adrenal hormones can do the same thing.” (A, 51:24)

• Philosophy on healing:

  “Nothing you’ve done will eradicate anything ... You're trying to get it into a non-pathogenic state... get your immune system stronger, then take it the rest of the way.” (A, 43:19)

• On “bubble life” and adaptability:

  “If you're still living in a bubble, there's something missing. Someone's missing something.” (A, 40:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:35 | Dr. Moore's introduction and philosophy | | 05:02 | Personal health journey, Lyme, and the road to integrative medicine | | 08:34 | Diagnostic approach—labs, history, “detective” work | | 12:33 | Burnout, mitochondrial dysfunction, and energy budgeting | | 19:01 | Supplement intolerance and mast cell perspectives | | 25:56 | Heavy metal testing, water toxicity, and overlooked exposures | | 32:51 | Multifactorial healing: diet, mold, antibiotics, resilience | | 45:34 | MCAS, Herxheimer reactions, and microdosing protocols | | 50:20 | The “neurotoxic loop” & cortisol addiction explained | | 61:33 | Cortisol addiction among high achievers and energy budgeting | | 68:28 | AI in healthcare and digital diagnostics | | 74:27 | Deepfakes, AI, and health marketing ethics |

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

The episode is conversational, empathetic, and investigative—aiming to empower listeners who feel unseen by conventional medicine. Dr. Moore’s tone is approachable, direct but compassionate, and based on data-driven problem-solving. Mikhaila brings the perspective of someone with lived chronic illness experience, offering honest commentary (“I don’t like the take it easy part. No!”).

Listeners are encouraged to become their own detectives, seek customized solutions, and recognize the deep connections between stress, trauma, environmental exposures, and chronic illness. Recovery, the episode concludes, is about restoring adaptability—not perfect bubble living.

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Where to Find Dr. Jabin Moore

[77:18]

• All platforms: @DrJabinMoore
• Website: [Dr. Jabin Moore’s site]

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Summary by request. Ads, introductory chat, and non-content have been omitted.

Transcript

[A]

Now we're having unsafe feeling response. That unsafe feeling generates more cortisol and then you're toxic. So you create another immune response and it becomes a self perpetuating problem. Even if you moved out of the mold. That's the toxin loop.

[B]

Dr. Jabin Moore, welcome to my podcast.

[A]

Thanks for having me on here. I run labs, I ask questions until I figure out how we can get results. I work with the people that can't find answers, get to be the detective that we all were trying to be when we were kids. We're still not strong enough to survive alone. We still need help. If you're still living in a bubble, there's something missing.

[B]

Bubble life is great, but like, that can't be ideal. I'm not even convinced that the feeling worse part of healing is a good sign.

[A]

I had a six pack, I weighed 200 pounds of 5, 10. Like I was fit as could be looking, but I felt awful.

[B]

You can't run yourself ragged because it's not a better option for long term success anyway because you're going to end up crashing. Doctor Jabin Moore, welcome to my podcast.

[A]

Thanks for having me on here.

[B]

I'm very excited about this. I found you on Instagram about a year and a half ago, maybe, maybe more, actually, maybe two, and started following you because everything I've seen you put out seems pretty spot on. And I had some like, mold, serious mold issues, a bunch of other issues that my audience is well aware of. And I was like, ah, this is the kind of doctor that I probably could have used and didn't have access to. So before we get started, can you give a brief background about what it is you do and who you are?

[A]

So, Dr. Jabin Moore, I have a clinic in Kansas City, Missouri, but I work virtually with people around the world and what I do, honestly, somebody said it to me the other day, they're like, you're just a detective. You're just a healthcare detective. And it was kind of funny because I didn't think of it that way. But what I do is I run labs, I ask questions until I figure out how we can get results. And then we confirm those results again, back with the labs and everything else we're doing. So I work with complex chronic illness, Lyme disease mold. I work with radioactive element toxicities, and this can all lead to MCAs. And I'll just call it the longs because everybody's like, well, what about long Covid? I'm like, well, I dealt with Lyme and chronic lime. Is long lime And Epstein bar that is chronic is long Epstein bar. So this whole concept of a infection being around for a while is like, I just work with the mystery people. I work with the people that can't find answers. And I have a lot of fun doing it because I get to be the detective that we all were trying to be when we were kids.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. So do all these. When you're tackling, like, someone with long Covid versus Lime, let's say, are the protocols completely different, or is the underlying, like, inflammatory problem fairly similar?

[A]

So in my mind, there is a lot of similarities to it, but it. But no two people end up with the same exact path forward. And that's. You know, it doesn't sound like I am making anything. Any real statement there. But what I'm saying is what you have to do with somebody is you have to figure out what burdens are not allowing their body to feel well. And everybody's burdens are different, whether that be childhood trauma, whether that be a toxin like uranium in your water supply or mold in your walls or some sort of food poisoning that led to a SIBO and an H. Pylori. But the reality is, I had Lyme disease. I am not afraid to go outside and get bit by a tick. I don't think I'm gonna get Lyme anymore because I've also developed a healthy body and terrain to where it's very difficult to get me sick. So when I. When I think of these complex, chronic illnesses, I'm just going, well, what made you vulnerable enough to get it? And some of that can be even genetics. Some of that can be your mindset about life. All of this creates a situation where you're using energy for something. So why did your energy go for whatever stressing you on the day that you get bit by the tick versus going to defend you? If I can figure out what that is and get rid of some of those burdens, you're going to get.

[B]

Well, okay, that makes sense to me. That seems to be what I think happened, like, to me and to my family. And I think mold was the initial, like, the major burden. I'm not sure what else there was, but, like, mold was a big one. Our house in Toronto and all the houses my dad's ever been in really were impacted by mold. What's your. Like, how did you get into this? Did you go the, like, integrative? You're. You'd be considered an integrative doctor, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you go that route initially, or were you in mainstream Initially.

[A]

So when I was five years old, I told my parents I was going to go to Harvard, become a doctor, and play in the NFL. Like every kid, I had a lot of dreams, so I wanted to be a doctor. And I realized when I was in school because I wanted to do sports, right? I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. I was like, man, I feel like that's the end of someone's career. You blow out an ACL and. Yeah, and science is advancing and people are recovering from ACLs. But back in 2004, ACL was kind of the end. Achilles was kind of the end. I'm like, I don't want to do that. I want to be able to help people. So I went in to school thinking, like, I want to be able to help people get back on the field. Then I ended up with Lyme disease when I was in school, and my brain started getting foggy and my joints started hurting, and I started getting more fatigued than I ever had. And I was 25, and I was the fittest I'd ever been in my entire life. So for a lot of people, they're like, well, I don't look sick, so nobody believes me. I'm like, I didn't either. I had a six pack. I weighed 200 pounds of 5, 10. Like, I was fit as could be looking, but it felt awful. So I lived that. And then at the time, in 2012ish, when I was dealing with the peak of this, I had erectile dysfunction and all these issues. You couldn't just go on Instagram and be like, lyme disease. Mold. Yeah, this symptom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then pop up 500 doctors to try and go navigate between. It was. I was at functional medicine conferences saying, I have these symptoms. And somebody goes, have you ever thought of lime? And I was like, yeah, who do you know? And they're like, I have no idea. There was just not. There wasn't podcasts like this where you could just go find experts. And. And that's where it really pushed me to research for myself. Finally found a guy in Wisconsin, drove from Kansas City to Wisconsin through a blizzard, which sounds like a story from your grandpa. And I finally pull up to the doctor's house. He has to bring the tractor out to clear the road. Because I was actually at his, like, personal home on a hill on a blueberry farm in Wisconsin. What a story, right? And I get in there, and he's like, yep. You know, after he checks me out, he's like, you got Lyme you got bartonella, you got Babesia. He's like, I'm also picking up on mold toxicity. And he was able to give me a path forward. And then he just started referring to me because back then virtual doctors didn't exist. So like my first day in practice, he's referring complex chronic Lyme patients to me.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And in 2013, that was the worst. And that was, that was my beginning. That's where it came from. So I was, I had no patience, but complex chronic illness. So all I had to focus on all day was figuring out how to get them. Well.

[B]

Wow, okay. That, that's early. Like I started doing like dietary intervention completely randomly. Not cuz anyone told me to do it. Just being like, well, I might as well remove diet as a potential factor in like my illnesses in 2015. And at that time, I think like Mark Hyman was kind of there was like Mark's daily apple. Rob Wolf was out there. But like I didn't know of any of these words like paleo keto, and I definitely couldn't find a doctor. But 2013, yeah, that, that's a while ago. That's cool. Okay, so what do you do when you see a patient? Do you. You would take a health history and then do a whole bunch of tests?

[A]

Well, yeah, actually a little different. We order what I call my physiology tests first. So there's an organic acid test, potential hair tissue mineral test, a blood test, if the client doesn't have those things already so that they can bring those in while we're doing their history and assessments. And part of the reason for that is I just listened to the clients coming in is they're just like, well, you took my history, what do I do now? And I go, well, we run labs and they're getting frustrated.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I actually run the labs with it. I tell them to bring in all their labs, but my history, yes, we do the what happened to you that caused this? But I also go, did you have trauma in your past? Did you have any symptoms that were unusual to you when you were five years old, such as eczema or psoriasis or this or that? Because I'm looking at questions to ask that brings up potential for a genetic SNP or a potential moldy house. So people that tell me that they were a little more anxious as a kid, or they have a propensity to be more a type or people pleasing or perfectionistic, it starts telling me about their genetics and some of the wiring that may take energy from them.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

And it does. It doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Right. I'm pretty a type. I'm always trying to go and go and go and go and work. But that takes energy. And if mold is crushing your mitochondria, you don't have the energy to do that, but that's who you are. So then you drive yourself completely into the ground. So a lot of the people I

[B]

see, like, yeah, okay, I don't want to hear this exactly, but okay, so,

[A]

yeah, I'll see somebody that's like a real estate investor, and they're like, man, I was crushing it. I had 17 businesses and this huge portfolio, and then I just crashed and burned. I'm like, okay. And this just happened to a guy that I was seeing in Switzerland last week. And he. And come to find out, after we ran all his testing, did all of his history, he ran through life like a wrecking ball until he moved into the wrong apartment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it took him two years to break, so he didn't even notice that he was breaking until he broke, like so many people with that type of personality. So I'm always trying to get those factors because that helps me to frame, what test to even go run, what second steps to even try, and how to communicate to my client. Because people that are like that, they'll do everything. They'll do the crazy diets, they'll do the 18,000 different therapies every day. They'll want to take more supplements. And what they need is rest. They need to slow down. Imagine your favorite lecture. Dial that up on Max. Put that on sleep steroids, and then add some cinematic elements to it. That's the best way I could describe a Peterson Academy lecture.

[B]

There's always that one professor who's like, oh, man, you know, you gotta take this one professor.

[A]

They're the best.

[B]

But at Peterson Academy, it's all of those. That one professor.

[A]

I'm still paying off College from 10 years ago, and I'm also still questioning

[B]

the value that I got out of college. It's very common nowadays for students who be in thousands and thousands of dollars of debt. It breaks my heart, the interest rates that are just going to keep on piling up on them. For an education that doesn't entirely serve

[A]

them, you are stuck in the room. You have to do a particular set of courses. I have to convince myself to stay focused. It's just pretty dry.

[B]

With Peterson Academy, it's a fraction of the cost. And you get access to all these different topics.

[A]

It goes anything from Sciences, nutrition, why we get sick all the way up to history. Tons of courses, tons of really good lectures.

[B]

I'm always looking for a quality educational content. Peterson Academy provides it all.

[A]

The instructors are amazing.

[B]

They're so well known in their field

[A]

that you just want to pay attention. The more I access, the more I listen, the more I learn, the more I want to learn. I just keep expanding and I just want more. Traditional university can sometimes ground you down. Peterson Academy will be able to scratch that itch of you wanting to learn and continuing to grow as a person. I can't wait to see where Peterson Academy goes.

[B]

There's just so much potential and it's just the beginning.

[A]

I went to college because I had to. I go to Peterson Academy because I want to.

[B]

You just kind of have to focus on what's going to actually change your life. Stop paying attention to what things are supposed to look like and actually aim for something. And you might just stumble across something like Peterson Academy. Okay, I've been wondering this because, like, I've got a couple of friends that are like extremely high achievers and I've been like, that get chronically ill and I'm like, are you burnt out now? I know Burnout, I feel like, is talked about in a way where people don't take it seriously, where it's like, take some time off. But then I've been doing more research into mitochondrial dysfunction and I'm like, so it's burnout at a mitochondrial level, right? There's just like not enough energy and you actually do need to stop and rest. So what do you tell, what do you tell people that are in that situation? What does stop and rest look like?

[A]

So it depends on the person. And I'm very driven by data because that's just the way that my brain works, honestly, is I want data, I want reproducible evidence. I want to be able to show you in front of you. Because people that are high achievers, they. And this can be a stay at home mom, by the way, because they're achieving at such a high level of running the house and taking care of their family and taking care of their kids. This doesn't have to be an entrepreneur. This is just a person that's a go. They're just on the go. So what I look at is this, I go, give me your personality just by talking. Sometimes it's just the first conversation and the way they filled out my paperwork, I can tell it. And then we start looking at their labs. So let's start with blood labs if you have a albumin, which is a protein in your CMP, your, your comprehensive metabolic panel that is above 4.6, I'm going to start thinking, okay, your body is showing me signs of becoming dehydrated. None of these people don't drink water. It seems like they're all drinking their water has nothing to do with water intake. It's their minerals are being burnt out cuz their body's running at such a high level that they can't keep up with basic minerals, sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium in their body. Then you start looking at ALT and ast, which are liver markers, your basic liver panel. And everybody gets worried when it's high. Sure that's true. You have a toxicity, a liver stress problem. What happens if you go down into the single digits and you're low, Your liver's not keeping up your creatinine. What if that goes high? Kidney damage? Most of these people aren't there either. They're going into the low. So their muscle heart and their kidneys aren't producing enough creatinine to come out of their body. So I know they're not detoxing well anymore, their body's slowing down. So this is just basic blood panel. I'm not even going into the depth of like fun labs. I'm going like the stuff that you have from every physical you've ever done. And then we can look at GFR and kidneys and a lot of these people also their kidneys are not in failure, but they're sub what I think they should be. So if you're 35 years old, 40 years old, you should be easily above 90 on a GFR, which is a kidney test and the CMP and those are just your basic labs that I look at. I can then move over into a organic acid test. And you mentioned mitochondrially fatigue, mitochondrial stress. And you can see markers in a test there for do they have mold or bacteria or yeast in their body. But that's a cause, right? Those can be root cause problems. We're just talking about how do I see if their body is depleted. So do you have an issue where your Krebs cycle, how you break down carbs, or your beta oxidation cycle, how you break down fat aren't producing energy properly.

[B]

And how do you test that? That's the organic acid, that's a P test. How, how can that, how does that test that?

[A]

So they're looking for organic acids. So your body produces proteins and peptides and all these things that are all over the Internet, right? And you pee them out. So they're just looking for those acids as they come out. And then there's an average that you're supposed to have. So if it's not there then, then they, they tell that to you.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

So your mitochondria, if you go way back to middle school and, and if you don't remember from middle school, like most people don't get on chat GPT and just look up Krebs cycle, it's going to pop up this big circle and it's just going to show you all these different parts of, of the cycle. Such as the citric acid cycle is also another name for it. And as you go through the cycle, there's different particulates have different names. And if your body gets stuck in one of those, then you're probably not making energy as well. And you need certain minerals such as magnesium to be able to turn that cycle. You need nad, which is a popular peptide for increasing energy. Because if that cycle isn't turning, you don't make energy. So I'm going to go look. Can you make enough energy to do all the things you want to do? No. Well, it makes sense why you're tired, makes sense why you have brain fog, makes sense why you have post exertion fatigue. And I'm going through all that. Then you go into a hair test. And when you get into a hair test simply a lot of these people have been burning the candle at both ends and they now have a lack of minerals. So on the test is like ideal right here in the middle of the, the good range. And they're sub the reference range for all the minerals. And if you don't have minerals, basic minerals, sodium, potassium, when you stand up, you're gonna get fatigued. You're gonna have pots, you have dysautonomia, you're going to be fatigued. You're not gonna have motivation because minerals are required to function. And this is the basis of all things. It's, it's something that in school it's such a simple thought process, but we skip beyond it because we want to go run C4A and MMP9 and VIP for mold testing. We want to do all the cool tests and we skip the basics that just tell you your body's depleted. So when I see these markers, I'm like, hey, look one, let's get more minerals in. Let's just give your body what it's depleted of. Yes. You're going to continue to deplete until we remove the Root causes. But I also need you to do less, not more. Because if you go sweat, you're gonna sweat out your minerals. If you go sit in infrared sauna and I force you to detox, there goes more minerals. If I do some sort of big detox protocol on you where it makes you pee more often, there's more minerals. Also, it takes energy to detox. That's why people get tired when they detox. So I can't ask a person in bankruptcy to give me more money. I can't ask you, when you're energy bankrupt, to go do more stuff without finding a way to take other things away from you to give you energy back to do it.

[B]

Okay. Have you had. I mean, that. That. That totally makes sense. Have you had patients? And this is where my family falls in. Have you had patients that can't seem to take things easily? So magnesium seems to be a problem, and B vitamins are a huge problem. Yeah. And it's like, well, you need magnesium. Like, none of the levels seem low. But why would that happen? Is that a. Like, have you had patients that are like that? And is that a genetic. I, like, my dad and I have similar symptoms, so if I can't take something, I'll have a reaction to it, and he'll have a reaction that's ten times as bad. But it's exactly the same things, and they. They seem seemingly random to begin with. It's like B vitamins. Zinc is an issue, magnesium's an issue. And we're trying to figure out if. If it's genetic, we've, like, run genetic panels. Or if it's psych med damage, which I think is playing a role. But, like, what do you do with those people that are like, oh, I. I can't take some of these basic things.

[A]

So whether you are genetically prone to something, you're MTHFR, or one of the many genes that are associated to B vitamin issues, whether you're diagnosed, mcas, sirs, multiple chemical sensitivities, whatever. Whatever terminology is out there, it simply comes down to, I can't tolerate this thing that my body requires to function.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you have magnesium in your body or you wouldn't be here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You have B12 in your body or you wouldn't be here. So you're not allergic to it. It's also not a protein to be able to create an allergenic reaction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's not what it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then I go, okay, if we just step back from the. It's so frustrating. For you as the patient and me as the doctor to have this happening. You just step back away from that for a moment, lose the ego and you just go, okay, we know it's in their body, we know they need it. What possibly could be going on besides the fact that they're having an allergy reaction which is absolutely not it? Magnesium turns the wheel of the mitochondria. B12 is required to turn the wheel of the mitochondria. If I give you energy, what is your body doing with that energy? If I give you nutrients, such as, it's well known iodine can displace uranium or mercury or things like that in your body. So if I give you something, what are we either displacing or what are you using the energy to do that would trigger a reaction.

[B]

That's what it, that's what happens like with the magnesium and the B vitamins. It's not an allergic reaction. It's like influx of energy and then it's like, oh, that feels good. And then it's like, now I can't sleep for three days and now it's, it's really bad. Yeah, magnesium's a bit different, but it's the same kind of. It's really like insomnia, agitation and so there's like, there's something wrong with the energy part?

[A]

Well, yes and no. So remember what you said. And by no means am I a psychiatrist that's prescribing a bunch of drugs for mental health. But you mentioned psych drug problems. So if you get a bunch of psych drugs and I send them into your system and you said damage, but let's just say it's accumulation. So you've got in your interstitial space, you and your fat cells in different places, even on the receptor sites themselves. A bunch of psych drugs that haven't been cleaved off because, well, what's going to do that? Magnesium, iodine, maybe B12 is going to help produce a detox reaction intracellularly. So when I give you these things, your body goes, oh, okay. And starts to at low, at, let's call it normal people doses, what I would take, it starts turning the mechanisms on to clear you out, you start to detox. Well, if your body's identified these drugs now to be a problem or they cause you insomnia, which many of those drugs or those chemicals, pharmaceuticals do cause sleep problems, especially if they're dumped into your system, then is it maybe not a. It's just a detox reaction. It's a Good thing. But it feels horrible. So then what do you do? Do you have to give the right amount of binder with a teeny tiny amount of magnesium, B12, and slowly build up over time, Which I've done this with patients before where somebody came in like, I can't do B12, I can't do an AC, I can't do glutathione. Well, when I removed all the other toxicities that weren't the thing that was triggering this, because I've had people come in and told me that those things cause them to have seizures. So I got to be real careful. And I'm like, okay, we're not going to just like, here's a whole bunch of it. But if I can remove the stress responses around it, decrease the histamine response. Because what you're ending up with is probably not a septic response, which is a Herxheimer reaction. You're not septic, so it's not a detox reaction. Yeah, it's more likely an immune response. A histamine reaction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So your body is having a mast cell degranulation, an immune system cell dumping all the stuff inside of it that are inflammatory agents that lead you to feeling awful. So I can decrease that, which is why you eating a meat diet feels good, because you decrease histamine response. You took out all your histamine foods if you're not eating aged meat and then you're taking out all the oxalates and other irritants, so that's gone. So you're not really anti inflammatory. And then you bring in things like a thiamine thymus and Alpha, a KPV, a BPC 150 KPV.

[B]

I love. That's my favorite peptide.

[A]

It helps modulate your immune response. So you're. If you can bring those down, you can even do an ldn. You can do natural things. But sometimes in those extreme cases, Christian singing out a rosemary bromelain aren't enough. Sometimes. Sometimes they are DAO supplements. I'll stack these things together with my medical team. And what we end up doing is we suppress your likelihood of having those reactions so you can just move faster. Some people want to do it naturally, so we just go slower. And if we bring in little bits of magnesium after removing the irritants, then slowly you just start to cleave off all the mercury, the uranium, the whatever it is. That's your toxicity problem. And I've seen it over and over and over again with people you know it was uranium because they Lived in a house with radioactive water that came through the tap plus Ray dawn in their basements.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and that uranium was on their thyroid. So they had Hashimoto's thyroid autoimmunity. They had depression and anxiety and anytime you started to even tap into that, their weight would skyrocket with inflammation and they'd start feeling like they were gaining weight. They'd have major depressive swings, their cycles would be thrown off. So I had to do it at a slow enough pace while binding it after we reduced the likelihood of having the immune reaction. And then over a period of several months, they were able to get rid of the majority of it. And then now they can take as much. In that case iodine, which was the biggest trigger for them. And B12, they could take as much as they wanted, you know, within reason.

[B]

Interesting. How often do you see like uranium and these kind of like heavy metal issues? Is that common? Because like psych meds caused a problem that I think is still lingering, but that was 10 years ago. And then I've been on a meat diet for like eight years and I've been careful about my environment for four. So it's like, why would I still have these issues? And then for dad it's like 10x whatever's happening to me. But like so that makes me think it's long term psych med damage, honestly, especially from other people I've spoken with. But I haven't done the, like, I've done blood work for heavy metals and they didn't show anything. Do you do other tests? Do you do the hair? You're laughing. Why are you laughing?

[A]

Blood work for heavy metals is useless.

[B]

Oh, okay, that's great.

[A]

It is completely useless unless it is a current and massively significant problem. Like I'm not talking about a little bit. I'm talking about like you're being poisoned and right now, not last year. Because your body is amazing at adapting, right? Like you throw your back out, what do you do? You lean to the side and you just keep moving. For a lot of people, you, you roll your ankle, you just start putting your weight on the other side, on your other leg and you turn your foot and you just adapt. People are great at adapting. What are we really bad at? Getting back to optimal. So if, if you just look at it from the physiologic, when I roll my ankle and I start walking funny, I'm probably never going to change that back unless somebody puts me through physical therapy to correct that. And then I wear out another joint. Well, what's happening inside your body, it sounds like. And I don't know anything about all your labs, but it sounds like psych med created a shift and adaptation in your body. You did work to get away from it. You are now doing things to keep your body strong, but what has not been done is rehabilitating how your body responds to magnesium and B12 and all these other things. Likely because of the second part, your body cleaned up enough that you can get back to normal. Ish. Right. Like, if you're doing all these other things and you're still not feeling well, then you're not normal, but you're normal. Ish. But what it never did was go well, now that I'm feeling normal, I can actually start go back to cleaning out all the extra stuff that's in my intracellular fluids and spaces and, you know, in my fat cells. We're just gonna leave that alone and I'm gonna go live and survive life because that's what the body doesn't do. Well, so then, you know, that's one part of your question. The other part was, how often do I see a toxin problem? Yeah, metals, uranium, radium, all the time. I don't think that's the only problem. But what you mentioned to me was mold, metals and drugs that. Let's just call all of those toxins, different kinds of toxins. And then Lyme is an infection. That's a whole different thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, mold can be an infection. You can be colonized by it. And I have had people come into my clinic that have been through some really amazing doctors and EDTA and DMSA and. And Carnivore and all sorts of other diets and vegan diets on top of the carnivore, like back and forth and all the drugs and all the protocols and they, you know, different things were missed for different people. But I've had people who are still drinking radioactive water because the only way to remove that is to distill it. If you're drinking it, if it's in your tap, the only way to remove it from the tap is distilling. That's it.

[B]

There's no way to filter that.

[A]

No filter, just to be clear, filter can remove it well for very long. RO is your best filter.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because it's a. A filter that has really tiny holes and you've got to use energy to force stuff through. And it will get 90 of of metals when it's brand new and it degrades over time. So if you're In a place that has a lot of it, it will degrade more rapidly. And because again, you're using a filter, so a porous, non strong material that you're using force to shove something through, it's going to tear over time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're at 90 at your best, and it's degrading over the length of time you're using it. I'm talking about like weeks, not years.

[B]

Wow, that's not good.

[A]

And then the other part is distilling. It is evaporation. So you evaporate from one tank to another tank and then you filter it. So those metals that are very hard are left in the tank because their melting temperature is different than water. So they're going to stay. When water evaporates, what it, what will go with it is VOCs and phthalates and that sort of stuff because it melts around the time water does. So then you have to filter it, which is where the filter part comes in. And as I've just. I've learned so much about water and toxins because I get those weird cases where I had a very rich family. There were seven of them, chronically ill from mold, all of them still sick, drinking radioactive water. They'd all been to some of the best doctors because they could afford it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they come into me and I'm like, well, one thing we're missing is the water. Three of them got better within the first month. And I was like, well, that's cool. The other four did not. They had way more stuff going on that was still left over, even though they'd been through some really good protocols. But their body wasn't strong enough to keep everything at bay while they were still drinking the water. So I had to go back and deal with the Lyme and, and parasites and sibos, because the radioactive elements allow those things to keep surviving, even with doing amazing protocols, antibiotics and antifungals and natural protocols and IVs and, and all of the stuff. So when someone comes to me, I, I have to step back and just look at, well, where was the miss? Because something was missed. Even if I'm not getting you well, and we've been four or five months in, I'm like, where's my Miss? Like, we've done enough work. You should be getting, well, where's my miss? What did I not do right? What is it about you that I didn't see? Let's rerun some labs. Let's go check something different. You're like, okay, your physiology is getting Better here, but this marker is not. Okay. Well, I had one client that I worked with for two years. She gotten, like, 90% better, and then all of a sudden, her gut flared back up. And I run her labs and molds back. I'm like, what you do? What happened? Oh, I moved. Crap. She didn't tell me because she thought she did a good job with the looking through the apartment, this and that. And then we ran it, and there's place had a little bit of mold. And I'm like, well, at least we know why.

[B]

Yeah, right?

[A]

So, like, you're constantly just being the detective, so I know I went all over the place.

[B]

No, that was cool. That was cool. When I first went on the, like, the paleo diet changed my life. That's when I stopped taking all my medications. And I was like, it very limited. It wasn't the paleo diet. It was, like, meat and vegetables. No eggs, no dairy. It was basically just meat and vegetables and a few fruit. And it, like, fixed me. And that was the first step. And then I stopped taking psych meds over a period of two weeks. After 12 years.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I had two and a half years of, like, crazy, crazy horrifying symptoms that I attributed to my diet and food reactions because I was having such severe, severe neurological reactions to food that I was like, oh, my gosh, how is this my reaction to soy? Now, how is this my reaction to dairy? And then it kind of went away, the severe reactions after two and a half years. And it took me another year to figure out, oh, that was actually antidepressant withdrawal that I didn't even know existed. And then I've gone down the mold route because I got sick in Miami. And then I met this doctor that did, like, a parasite testing. And I had H. Pylori, which was picked up on GI maps a number of times. But all the doctors I'd been to said, well, the levels aren't crazy high. Just ignore it. You don't have any symptoms. And it was like, well, I only eat meat, so maybe that's one of the symptoms. But I. I didn't have, like, acid reflux or GERD or anything or burning. And treating H. Pylori, like, fixed my digestion. And I was. And that was the classic. I did, like, quad therapy, but I. I think I replaced metronazole because that doesn't make me feel good with some kind of equivalent. But, like, that fixed me. So, like, the longer I've been doing this, the more I realize they're like, you can do one thing and have it work really well. Like the carnivore diet saved my life. Like I went from disabled to being able to run like multiple businesses, have kids, like a bunch of things. When I addressed mold, had fertility issues actually when I lived in mold on, on the carnivore diet that I couldn't figure out that resolved as soon as I fixed mold. But like it's definitely multifaceted. And then you think, well, what's at the bottom? Why am I being like attacked from so many different angles? Like there are a lot of people that live in moldy houses that would make me sick that are doing okay. I can't say it's good for their health, but they're not flattened or people who are exposed to Lyme and they don't get chronic Lyme. So like, what's going on? And then recently I've been like, well is it like, is it vaccines? I've never been on the like anti vaccine train. But at a certain point, after doing this for 10 years, it's like, is there something wrong with my immune system at a foundational level that's just different. So do you have any like, is that a thing? Because at some point it's like, well, is it my immune system, you know, rather than all these toxins I'm exposed to?

[A]

Well, there's two points that I wanted to bring up. One, when you go to a functional medicine doctor, regular doctor, whoever else, you have to consider what they're doing and how it's affecting their labs or any other information that you're trying to pull from, right? So if, if you're a diabetic and you're on a bunch of diabetic meds and your blood sugar looks good, it doesn't mean you're not diabetic. So I'm not going to pull you off of all your diabetic medication because your labs look good when you come in, which is what happens so often with people that are already doing all these healthy things. So for you, you had changed your diet to paleo, done all of this stuff, then you went to doctors like, yeah, your H. Pylori doesn't look bad. Well, yeah, because I'm managing it with my lifestyle. So if you come to me and you're already eating a really strict, amazing diet and you're already doing all these anti inflammatory things, you just took a bunch of parasite protocols, antibiotics and antifungals. Of course I'm not going to expect you to have a bunch of stuff out of range when it comes to those infections that you just treated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then if it's at a lower level but still not normal, I'm like, well, yes and no. Like this might still be a thing. You're on the borderline. And I'll put it in what I call my roadmap and I'll put question marks next to it so that I keep it in mind. It's like not. Yes, but it's not. No, it's. Let's, let's keep it in mind. So that's a part of what's going on for why. Maybe you're having a hard time getting straight answers because people are looking at your labs thinking, well, this isn't it. But for you, your markers might look different because of everything you're doing or done or, you know, living in the perfect homes, etc, living in a bubble.

[B]

Yeah, I feel good. Like I'm doing well other than stress that I can't really do much about. But like, I'm doing well, but if I deviate at all, I'm very ill. So it's like bubble life is great, but like, that can't be ideal. And I don't know if that's good. When I'm like, when I'm 50 or 60, is my body going to be able to keep all that under control if I get exposed to like walk through a moldy building or like someone breathes on me or something?

[A]

No. And I have a lot of people that come into my clinic and they, they, they're doing the same thing and I'm just like, look, I, I love what you're doing, but it will not last. Yeah, you will eventually break. Like, I don't care how strong willed you are, you will eventually want to have a burger or a beverage or not me or go on a vacation or that whatever it is, you will eventually want to do something that doesn't agree with where you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it also means that if you have to be that perfect that you're just floating near the line and if you're always about to break, that line isn't going to where you're becoming more adaptable, it's shrinking. And then you're doing something more to keep yourself alive and then it shrinks and you do something more to keep yourself alive all the time at your current threshold because there's something burdening you so much. So when I tell people, I'm like, look, my goal is not to tell you you have to do this. But an example is I had a woman that Came in. She was chronic Lyme. Her thyroglobulin antibodies was 7,000. So she was Hashimoto's. She had markers that were associated to breast cancer. She was nearly blind from the amount of floaters and things that was in her vision. And I got her to a point where I was like, three or four months. And she actually came along pretty rapidly. This was like, 13, 14 years ago, like, right in the early part of my practice. And her functional medicine md and when I say functional medicine MD at the time, it was just like his first go. Wasn't meds. It was. It was diet or lifestyle. And this was, you know, way long ago where that was, like, an amazing step forward for a lot of doctors. And he ran her thyroglobulin right before she started with me. And then three, four months in, and we had just done a few more natural treatments for Lyme, and they dropped from 7,000 antibodies to 2,000 antibodies.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Huge change. When I. I told her, my goal is for you to be able to do the things you want to do. I'm a Kansas City boy, so Chiefs fan. We go out, we want to barbecue. A lot of guys are wanting to have a beer. They're wanting to eat nachos. I'm like, it's not. I'm not telling you that you should go do that, but I want you to be able to do that without having more than, like, I feel a little inflamed. The next day, kind of repercussion. Yeah, I want your body that adaptable.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So she came in, and we'd gotten her to the point where she was. Well, she was back to work. Vision clear, antibodies down to under 200. I mean, she was really happy. It was like her 20th anniversary with her husband, and they were going back to Chicago, where her, like, one of their first dates was. And she used to drink a beer there and just sit and, like, you know, fawn over each other. And she's like, I'm. I'm so excited to go back. And I feel good, but I'm sad. I'm not going to drink a beer. I'm like, drink the freaking beer. Oh, my gosh, just do it. And she's like, you. Are you my doctor telling me, drink a beer? I'm like, not because I'm your doctor trying to tell you to drink a beer, but I'm saying your body's adaptable enough that if you want to do that. So she went. She had one beer. She paid no price for it. And she literally started like, bawling because she was so happy that she could do that. And for you, what I'm saying is, if you're still living in a bubble, there's something missing. Someone's missing something. I don't know what it is because I don't know all your information. Maybe that's our next podcast. I'll just read all your stuff. We'll just get it all out in front of everybody.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, let's do that. Good luck. I have done so many. I have a Google Drive folder that if, like, Brian Johnson didn't exist, I don't know who's done more testing than me. Like, and it's just like, everything looks a bit off. Looks a bit better now that I did. Like, the parasite stuff. Like, the gut stuff looks better, but, like, everything is kind of wrong. And it's like, well, so what's. Everything is kind of wrong. Hard to figure out where to start, especially if you can't take freaking supplements.

[A]

Well, one, you'd be able to at some point. And I'm not telling you to be easy, but there's a path forward with consistency and that. That's part of it, but it's also. I mean, I'll just tell you. One of the first clients that came to me that was, like, from remote. When I was really early in practice, she walked in and she'd been to Mayo and a bunch of other docs, and she had a pamphlet of paper that was like, two, three inches thick printed. Because this is before you can, like, oh, my God, send it all over in a Google Drive. And my first entire hour with her was just reading to her. Like, I was just reading it, and I was just like, well, this could be this, and this could be this. And, well, that's interesting. And. And I went through. And, you know, her immunoglobulins were, like, bottomed out. So of course, she tested negative to all antibody tests because she didn't have any antibodies.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they had diagnosed her with B6 toxicity. Even though it was barely over the range, she didn't take it. So it meant that we had a gen issue and she was likely dealing with mold. And then we just kept going, and I was able to just like, kind of interpret a whole bunch of things, and we wrote them all down. And then by the time I got to the end, I was like, well, here's a bunch of misses and here's what we're missing on information. And. And then we went and ran some of those things, and we just slowly started going through it. But for her it wasn't that there was one big problem. It was that there was a lot of little ones and people would get hyper fixated on mold or Lyme or parasites and they do months and months and months. What I did with her was because she had already been through so much, I was like, we're do like one month of parasite and one month of bacteria and one month of Lyme and one month of mold because her immune system was still weak enough that it couldn't protect itself, but it was strong enough that it was doing like a triage. And I needed to get her beyond that where the adaptability because once you get to a point of of immune system where you are, you're in the, the cdr, which is cellular cell danger response state. You attack everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Immediately. Like it's just immediate attack. Everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no look around and figure out oh, that's magnesium. Like we could do something with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The rest it's just attack.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well I need to get you out of that. Where it's. We're still not strong enough to survive alone. We still need help. Which is probably where you live sometimes, but you've never gotten to. Okay, now I can actually. Because this is the thing is nothing you've done will eradicate anything. You're not trying to eradicate parasites, ebv, Lyme, anything. You're not trying to eradicate anything because if you do, you'll kill yourself. You're trying to get it into a non pathogenic state. So you've got to get it below pathogen by what you're doing and then get your immune system stronger than take it the rest of the way. And you've never gotten to where your body will take it the rest of the way because potentially you, your immune system is dysregulated from the psych drug damage and you're not able to get enough nutrients in because you need magnesium and B12 to run your mitochondria. Otherwise it stays in CDR. This stays in that fight or flight response. So you've never been able to turn the dial down enough for your body, then go and do the rest of its work. So as soon as you take your foot off the gas of moving forward and and like detox, you start getting worse.

[B]

Yeah, that seems to be pretty accurate like that. That's pretty accurate. Like the diet. I'm like hyper functional with a diet mainly and with seriously avoiding mold. And it's been three years now since I realized that mold was an issue. And I'm less intolerant than I was. Like, I can go stay in a hotel for three days, but by day three, I'm not really sleeping and I'm having heart palpitations. And it's not like in my head stress. It's like, oh, slowly my body's overwhelmed by the new environment. Yeah. And I've tried, like, I've talked about this a bit on the podcast for, like, MCAs and just this, like, inflammatory state. I've tried ketotifen. I've. I've tried some of the mast cell stabilizers, but as soon as I take something and feel worse, I'm just like, nah, I don't want to go through the feeling worse. I'm not even convinced that the feeling worse part of healing is a good sign. Like, do you. If you are dealing with people with mcas, do you use things like ketotifen to try to calm down the immune system? And do some people have bad responses first and then eventually tolerate it? Or do you just like, micro dose those people? What do you do?

[A]

Yes to all of that? Yes, we microdose. Yes, we use medication. Yes, we have bad reactions. But let me give you.

[B]

Is it normal for. For MCAS people to have bad reactions?

[A]

So are you familiar with mast cell degranulations triggered, like, the triggering of it. Like, so the science behind it is mast cells are immune cells that carry around granules. So that's why the degranulation of different. Different biological protective molecules. And when you are in a mast cell state, mast cell mcastate Mast cells degranulate with, like, nothing. So the worst version of mast cell is temperature change, light change, sound change, degranulation, Touch your skin to something. Degranulation. So people come in, they're like, they just do this with their arms, run their finger.

[B]

I had that before diet dermographia or something I could write on myself. And it would, like, turn into hives. I thought it was a trick in high school. Look at this smiley face. Yeah, Hives.

[A]

So if I get you in, if you're at that level of mast cell, good and bad is unrecognizable to the body.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

So any change is too much, cause deranulation. You feel bad, Any change, good or bad. So then of course you're going to have a reaction if you're trying to physiologically change the way your mast cells are responding. Because now they're like, well, if you turn me down, my organism will die, which is you. So is Some bad reaction. Okay. Some, yes. A lot, no. So hermetic stress is something like I go to the gym, I work out. That stress builds me stronger when I recover. And there's a, there's studies that show above 30ish percent hermetic stress for a period of time causes damage to you that is unrecoverable. So we want to do a recoverable state. So with mast cell, I even go below that. I go 20%. So I'm like, if you have an increase of symptoms by more than 20, stop. Now, as I'm going through that process, we bring in, say, low dose naltrexone, normal dose 4.5 milligrams. Mast cell dose 0.25 milligrams.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Build up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That still could cause a reaction. And I've had it happen.

[B]

I, I react to ldn, it gives me derealization.

[A]

Yeah. Well, why? Your inflammatory responses that you have at your maximum threshold is also. Is psychological as your worst symptom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if I'm bringing down inflammation around your brain and your brain starts to detoxify or change its inflammatory responses, is the synaptic activity going to change?

[B]

I mean, I mean, eventually, I suppose for you, immediately.

[A]

Because inflammation's changing and you're degranulating inflammatory responses in your brain. It's. It's encephalitis. Look at it. Pans. Pandas, kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then how do you get around that? You've got to get such micro dose levels and you have to come at it from multiple perspectives. So if I just shut down histamines by bringing chromosodian in or catotophen in or something like that, If I just do one route, it's, it's so great that your body feels threatened by a good thing and then degranulates.

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

So what if I do it at a teeny tiny amount for histamine and a teeny tiny amount for inflammation and a teeny tiny amount for immune modulation, and it doesn't feel threatened, and we just slowly build that over several months, even to the point where by the time your body catches on that there was a change, it's, there's, it's, it's already chilled and it's not gonna degranulate because it's not feeling as threatened because its threat response is a lot less. Think about ptsd. If you're a guy from the military, and I've seen this in live, in person, fireworks. Right. If. Or if you slam a door on a guy that's that was in a military battle where there was bombing, a door being slammed. Even though they're safe around everywhere in their home, dropping cover. Well, your body's doing the same thing. Even though, yeah, magnesium's good. It's too much shut down.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, so then let's shift gears a little bit. Stress and trauma, like, how much, how much does that end up impacting your immune system? Because you talked about ptsd. Is that really that bad? I, like, I know it is, and I've talked to so many people about this, but, like, can that impact your immune system so that you start having inflammatory reactions to things from stress? And why? If. If so.

[A]

So one of the talks that I've done was we named it the neurotoxic loop. And I've hung around and talked to AIs about this because I was just curious what the research was where I just was chatting with AI. I'm like, bring up research. Prove me wrong. And out of all the research I did and looked at all these studies, we're used to the concept that mold in the body is toxic and neurotoxic. And when it builds up, it generates a liver and neurotoxic brain. Toxic, nephrotoxic, toxic everywhere, which then causes the body to release a immune response to try and clean it up. During that period of time, you release a hormone response to give you enough energy called cortisol and adrenal hormones to get your body to rev up to protect you, which is a normal response. Eventually, if it becomes long term, you can get adrenal hormone or cortisol toxic, which is another version of toxin.

[B]

Oh, what, what is this? Cortisol toxic.

[A]

You can get toxic to your own hormones because they, they accumulate. You've heard of estrogen dominance, toxic estrogen, Right. So adrenal hormones can do the same thing. So it's driving you so hard and it's saturating your brain with hormones that are eventually becoming toxic because they are sitting in there now. So this is the toxic response side. Well, now you're sitting in a toxin, whether it be the mold or the adrenal toxicity, the cortisol toxicity, that tells your body that it's unsafe. So then it generates a fight or flight response back to that, that mitochondrial CDR situation. It generates a response to say, we're in danger, we're unsafe. So it triggers more immune response to the stress that you're in. So now we're having a unsafe feeling response. That unsafe feeling generates more cortisol and Then you're toxic, so you create another immune response and it becomes a self perpetuating problem. Even if you moved out of the mold. So you just generated a immune triggered internal PTSD in your body. And I'm not even talking about mental health, emotion, life trauma. So that's the toxin trauma side of it. So that's the toxin loop that can get you on that side. Well, the neural loop can do the same thing. If you feel unsafe because of a, a parent, a spouse, you live in a war zone, whatever is causing you to feel unsafe, you release a cortisol response so your body will get you to safety. If that cortisol response goes on too long, then you generate another immune response, or sorry, stress response that leads to an immune response because you get toxic to it, because your body wants to clean it out. And then that cycle starts going right. So it's self perpetuating until you feel safe. Well, what did I say earlier? We're terrible at rehabilitating out of it. So, I mean, I've met clients that are women that were abused and they still can't be around men in certain types of situations. They still don't feel safe, even to this day from whatever happened to them 20 years ago. So they're still feeling unsafe, which means their cortisol's still elevated, you can see on testing, and they're still generating this response and they end up mast cell. So you can do this from a neurological side or you can do this from a toxin side. It doesn't really matter. And then a lot of times, unfortunately, the person with the neurological trigger or the toxin trigger puts themselves in the position to get the other. Yeah, because if you are in a state where you're unsafe and debilitated from mold, oftentimes you're willing to deal with things that maybe you wouldn't have dealt with if you were. Well, you put yourself in a relationship or a landlord situation or a work situation because you just don't have quite the capacity to protect yourself. Or if you grew up in trauma and you move into a moldy house, you're twice as likely not to be able to tolerate it because you have so much energy over here trying to deal with the trauma on the, like under the surface, you're, you're spending a lot of energy dealing with that. So you can't tolerate mold as well. So the neurotoxic loop is something I talk about a lot. Because people get stuck in this self perpetuating problem. They leave the bad, like one of the bad things, but the body's just keeping it going because it's stuck, it feels unsafe. So one of the conversations in my practice a lot is are you safe? Both from an environmental perspective, air, food, water, hygiene, dental implants into the body and are you safe mental health wise, consciously and subconsciously, even when you are actually in a safe place?

[B]

Okay, that makes sense. I think part of the issues like my family's been dealing with is there's been so much external stress that's like, it's honestly like too much for someone to be stable in. Like even dad being sick now. Like last summer my newborn got sick and I was like, nobody would be okay in this situation. They, they'd be freaking out in like 12 different ways. So not feeling good is like, there's nothing you can do about that. But it's a tricky, sticky. It's tricky, sticky. It's a tricky situation I think for chronically ill people because people who have like autoimmunity, a psych issue, are on a bunch of medications, need taken care of, are stressing out their family, feel guilty, and then it's like the situation is bad, there are triggers for it and then they're stuck in a situation that's also bad. It's tricky. You have a tricky job.

[A]

Well, I've listened to your dad talk and, and I really respect some of the things he says, which is so interesting with what you just said there. It's when you are fully functioning with a completely healthy body and brain and stress situation. As long as you were taught and driven to work and have the work ethic and fight for things, when you have the full capacity to have critical thinking because you're well and you're unstressed and you're living within that, your ability to get stress is a whole lot less because it doesn't ping you to the fight or flight state where when you're in fight or flight, you don't have good short term memory, you don't have good critical thinking, you're not creative. So when you have a lot of room for adaptation, it takes a lot more to take you down because you can just step back from and be like, okay, well if I do this,

[B]

I'll solve this problem.

[A]

And, and you know, listening to him, just thinking through like the world we live in and what's happening to it and where people are. If, if you're already well, you can handle so much more, which is why, well, people in many cases can stay there better when they're conscious about it. But when you're not and you're going through everything you've gone through and if you have a child that's sick, you immediately could jump into the fight or flight worst case scenario, which triggers more cortisol, which then deep dives you away from the critical thinking. Not saying you couldn't.

[B]

Yeah, but it just makes it hard to, it definitely makes it hard to think when you're stressed. I think everybody listening knows that if you're really stressed out, you can focus on the problem and sometimes you can be hyper focused on that. But eventually when you get tired, your brain's tired. So yeah, that is what happens.

[A]

So, you know, coming in to work with people, it's, it's a delicate balance of, I hear you, let's work together. And when I tell them, you know, you don't have the energy to do all the things you're doing. You can imagine when these people are coming in. Well, so and so said to do red light and sauna's supposed to be good and I want to do these peptides and what about that med? And I need to take these 40 supplements because somebody said that they were going to be good for me. I'm like, yes to all of that. It's all good. I, I can, I can't tell you how many times I told people everything that you're on. All these recommendations you're giving are all good things. They all cost energy. Do you have excess energy to do them all?

[B]

Even the sauna and red light?

[A]

Sure. They all cost something. They cost your purchase ability, your time to go. Make sure to set in front of them your mental anguish. Okay, do all of them get them in in a day? Sauna takes for sure energy because it's hot. So your body has to try and cool you. You detox, you're losing minerals, red light, there's not a whole lot of lost energy, but sometimes it's just another burden of something else to do. I go, they all cost something. Taking 40 supplements. I'm going to tell you right now, especially if you're not well, if you're 100% well and you're just optimizing and you want to play around with all these different things. Awesome. You know, I interviewed Dave Asprey and he literally took a handful of pills and threw them in his mouth. And I'm like, that's awesome, you're healthy. But this person over here with Sibo and H flora and parasites and blah, blah, blah, that's expensive poop.

[B]

Yeah, that's been in my Experience.

[A]

So let me give you five to seven things targeted. Let's do like maybe one therapy outside. Let's eat. Well, stop surfing the Internet. Stop going to all these Facebook pages. No, don't believe me. Without, you know, double checking things. If, if you feel like you need to double check because I'm your 20th doctor, but also, how much energy does it take to do everything you're doing in a day? Like, step back for a moment. Just how much energy does it take? Can you cut half of the burden of the decision making process and your gut trying to digest all these pills? And when I do that with people and they give me enough trust to give me that for a month is all I ask for at the beginning. Just do it for a month. Oftentimes they're like, wow. Like, they could just feel the lift of, like, less distress in their nervous system, even though it was all good stuff.

[B]

Yeah, Interesting. Okay, well, this is why I reached out because I've been following your Instagram and I'll link your Instagram below and all the socials for everybody who's listening to, like, go check it out. But all your little, like, catchy clips on Instagram have been like, yeah, that makes sense. That's what I've seen. Like, that's how I feel. So that makes sense. I don't like the take it easy part. No, but I know, like, I've gotten, I've finally gotten to the point especially with pregnant. Like, I feel like you see a pregnant woman doing something and you're just like, sit down. Like, like other people can tell, but like, yeah, being slower. And I think that's why a lot of these, like, celebrities that suddenly get chronic disease. And it's under whatever name, Lyme, Long Covid, whatever it is, is like, is part of it because you ran at like 120, 150, 200%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For like 10 years. And it was too hard on your system. Even though, like, it's like, your brain can do it. You're like, I can do it, but you can't do it. Oh, really?

[A]

Your brain, Your brain, if you're a driven person, isn't operating from a position of what's optimal for my body. It's willpower. And willpower can make you do a lot of things that aren't necessarily good. So let's just, let's run down for you. Just for fun. Let's. Let's do what I do with some clients. We're going to take $100 bank account. All right. This is going to be your energy bank account.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

$50, which is actually less than it is in reality, is simply just being alive. That's your basal metabolic rate. That is you just breathing and operating. This is not getting out of bed and being a mom, a wife, a business owner. Anything else? $50 is gone. You have $50 left. You have mold and for sure. Right. You said some damage from psych meds, so let's just say that's 20 bucks. So 70. You only have 100. Now, your mom, that takes some energy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's $10, let's call it. You're a wife and a daughter. It's $10 at least. All right, we'll go 15. So where are we at now? We're $45 spent for being a wife, mother, daughter, and then having some previous mold. And it's like, that's $45. We have five left. You have how many businesses? Like a lot. Yeah, well, I know for running businesses, it's probably not $30 or $125.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You also probably manage your home to some degree. You have something that you enjoy. Right. You do something for yourself at some point. I don't care if that's researching or reading or whatever. So you're managing your house, you're doing that. We'll just call it $5. You're pregnant. We already know that. That's 20 more dollars.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So where am I at? I mean, we're not even talking about digesting extra supplements or doing extra therapies. I'm up at like 150 on a hundred dollar budget. Why are you not out of fight or flight? Yeah, and maybe I'm exaggerating the numbers here, right? It's all random. But if you start thinking about it like that and you start just giving yourself a budget, you're a business owner. If your business was running like this, how long until you're in bankruptcy?

[B]

Yeah, pretty quick.

[A]

So then if you can step back from your own drive and just look at your life and go, well, this is going to take that much and it's going to take this much and this much and this much and this much and not about you. But even if it was just trying to protect your child, what would you tell them to do? Yeah, you're going to change your behavior. And maybe you offload some of the tasks for the business to a staff person. And maybe you offload something that you like to do in the house, as far as cooking or cleaning or whatever to your husband. And maybe you, you retool a little bit. And here's the fun part. As you get healthier and you remove mold and you remove psych med damage, the amount of capacity you have starts to go up. So like when you go to the gym, I can deadlift 600 pounds. Well if you try to deadlift 600 pounds, it's not going to go as well. I don't think. Maybe you're stronger than me but that's

[B]

definitely not going to go well.

[A]

So as you get stronger, your capacity goes up.

[B]

I've just immediately. That's what I've done. And then I've immediately filled it with more companies cuz I like it.

[A]

Because you're addicted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To cortisone. I think your dad might be an expert on this.

[B]

Yeah. What are you supposed to do about that though? Do you just like bore yourself to death for a while and have your nervous system recover?

[A]

What do you do with any other addiction? You got to stop first. You got to recognize it first I guess then you got to stop. We'll do a 12 step process. Um, but you also just have to realize it's not sustainable. That it's not sustainable. And, and it will somewhere somehow take away from your long term goals of being able to do your business. Your long term goals of being able to like you said, be 50. Well when you're 50 you probably want to hang out with your children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And see their children. So you, you have some point, have to make a change.

[B]

I mean it's, it's obvious. Like obviously that's obvious. You can't run yourself ragged because it's actually not, it's not a better option for like long term success anyway because you're going to end up crashing. I know that. I know that I need some of the stress to go away. And then I think the question I

[A]

would ask you is who do you trust enough to help you to do this? Because you won't do it on your own. That's always the question I ask people. It's like, is it your husband? Is it?

[B]

I've offloaded like company wise. I mean things are pretty optimized and I have so much help at home, thank goodness. Like I've got nannies that like live here that I love that I don't know. I wouldn't be able to have three kids under three without, without help. I just wouldn't have as many children. Like things are pretty optimized. It's mostly, it's mostly like, it's mostly family stress. Yeah. Which is hard to like remove.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think it's. I'm just in a trial point.

[A]

I'm just kind of laughing because you're like, I've offloaded so much in the business, in the house, and I'm going to have my third kid under three. And I'm like, so you're an overachiever mom now because you can't help yourself. Which good for you.

[B]

That was in this, this baby. This was a bit of an oops baby. This was. But like then I was like, well, I'm combining all the hormonal changes within three year period. It's really convenient for like that, that I guess motherhood.

[A]

I love optimized motherhood at the. Also you want to talk about depletion? I mean, I know what magnesium. I know B12 you did have is, is going to your baby, which is, is the amazing part about the body, but at the detriment of you. So when you come out of this, you know, on the back end of, of breastfeeding, it's like, let's make sure we got some good stuff coming in and microdosing in all the things you need as you're going. But it's just, it's so hard not to do more when you're so good at doing more. You're successful. You've got a killer everything. It's fun and it's fun, but the problem is a lot of times with like people like yourself or myself is like we, we do things that you just can't get out of. Like you can't take a day off. You know, if you get a hobby, which, like a hobby. What do you mean? Like painting?

[B]

Yeah, no, I know you're like, what do you do for fun? And I was just like, you start a new business? Yeah, I'm Vibe coding an app right now in my downtime, which is amazing. Vibe coding is like, I don't think I've. It's the most fun thing I've seen. I can't believe you could do it. So instead of. I was like in a period during first trimester where I was scrolling and I was like, I just hate my. Like, I hate this. I hate scrolling. And I've switched that over to just talking to Claude.

[A]

I just had Claude build in a toxic way. I just had Claude build a interactive quiz with all the information I'm talking about today to our person could jump on it and it would just take you down this rabbit hole that would lead you to like the top few things that could potentially be going on that is educate you on each one.

[B]

That is so cool. Is that available? Are you going to make it available?

[A]

It's on my phone. Is not available on the Internet yet.

[B]

You need to put that on a website. You could even charge people. That's. That's such a good idea. That's such a good idea.

[A]

Because I'm just like, people don't even know where to go and there's so much information out there and I'm having it, like, sort through not just my opinion, but like, a lot of other opinions so that it's not completely biased to what I think, but it's just like, hey, how do we get somewhere that's not just. Well, you should. Everybody should be. You know, it's just I'm so tired of the controversy causing, like, Instagram posts because it's the only way to grow.

[B]

Yeah, like, I've.

[A]

I've stalled out on growing as much on Instagram because I'm just like, I'm not going to go out there and just say, everybody should be this one diet or everybody should take this one supplement or everybody has mercury and that's the causation. And just being so controversial that everybody in your comments is growing your account by fighting. Like, I'm just like, I'm not good at that because that's not helping people.

[B]

So boring, too.

[A]

And. And so then I'm just like, okay, well, how else do I educate in a different way? Because this is going to burn itself out. So I got to educate in a different way. And maybe it's. It's putting things into, like a fun interactive. Here's where all this information is. But it's also quizzing you and, like, pushing you around in it. And, and then, then you get your, like, TikTok addiction and moving every few minutes because it's not super long, but, you know, it's just a really good idea.

[B]

Well, you do. And you're probably talking to people when they come in for a while to get the health history to go through all their notes. If that could be, like, automated so it could be scaled, that could be really useful for people.

[A]

It's a part of it. And as you said, like, the vibe coding part of the back end is just kind of fun.

[B]

I'm so fun.

[A]

I'm just like, this is what I want and here's my ideas. And then it pops it up easier

[B]

than talking to a developer. No offense to the developers out there, but it's easier.

[A]

It is. It's really fun. And what. It popped out afterward I was like, man, I'd see me like, holy crap. I was like, it just pulled in so much information and put it in a really cool way. And I was like, what the heck is going on? And it's the face of everything is changing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think we're going to be like, we're the world where there's no employees. Like some of these people are saying, I think it's going to be that just you're going to have to be able to produce like 100 people by yourself. And that's just going to become the new standard and things are just going to continue to move faster. And if you aren't willing to learn how to use some of this stuff, we're just going to have the same thing. Like, you know, back in the day, people had to dig ditches by hand and, and when skid steer came out, a bobcat came out. If you couldn't run one, then you were kind of out of it, unless you were the one guy that was standing next to it. So then a lot of people had to learn how to drive machinery. So we're, that we're just learning how to drive the, the new machinery of what's going to push industry.

[B]

I think that's true. It's exciting. I know that this app that I'm working on, it's a dating app. And I'm going to put it out. I'm going to put it out. It's like a dating app for people who are health focused because most dating apps don't have health as a focus. So it has like the Hexaco personality scale, so you can like measure yourself against other people plus your preferences for like diet, whether you exercise. That kind of like gives a compatibility score that you can opt into or opt out of. But I was like, that's fun. So that's what's gonna, what I'm gonna publish. We'll see if it's popular or not. But, but I was like, I'm putting all this effort into vibe coding, which is really easy compared to building something, but I was like, in six months this is, this is happening so quickly. Am I going to spend a month doing this every day? And then in six months I could just describe it and it could be built, but either way it's fun. Right now the, the landscape is just changing so quickly. It, it's mind boggling. It's exciting though. It is.

[A]

And I mean, it's getting better at, at everything. It's getting better at medicine. I mean, doctors are using it and getting better at diagnoses. I will say this though, so when I go out there and do this with it, if you just ask for health advice, it's pulling from all of the bought and paid for studies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That are falsified to push narratives.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you have to be really careful about your prompting and where you're getting data from. And then you have to read it and go, okay, well, this study makes sense. And it wasn't, you know, paid for by that pharmaceutical company. And so in the healthcare area, that's the one thing that is just so interesting and why I think there's going to be a place for everything that you're building. And I'm building because it's curated by somebody that is willing to do the research and read. Because if you just ask Claude to go deep dive. Yeah, I know, cholesterol. It's going to come back with the bought and paid for narrative.

[B]

That's the risk for sure.

[A]

So you've got to make sure that you understand the information to then be able to help. So I think authenticity of podcasts like this and relationship marketing is going to be more and more and more important because I mean, a company could put out 60 or 600 ads to target any and everyone now with one guy doing the ads. Because it all can be made by AI.

[B]

Yeah. Companies are doing that more and more too.

[A]

And they're making up all these fake influencer. This is.

[B]

Did you hear? And then we. And then we should tap out because I'm wearing out. But did you hear there? It was like the fastest made billionaire with a single person. Yes. Did you hear about what he was doing? He made up a bunch of. He made a bunch, a bunch of fake doctors on Meta that endorsed this. I believe it was a peptide site. Is that the one? It's a peptide site and they did like Tirzepatide and like semaglutide and stuff like that. And they had a bunch of fake before and afters endorsed by fake doctors. And he was valued at like a billion dollars. I think he's likely going to prison because the entire thing was made up. And I was like, can you like fake a human on Meta to endorse your product? Isn't that fraud? And it looks like it is, but it's hard to say because you're not, you're not imitating a real person, which is where the laws are. You're making up a person which just hasn't existed in the past, really. But I was like, things are getting weird. You got to be careful. Gotta be more and more careful.

[A]

I just wonder, I mean, you're, you're making up a fake doctor, which is a license, so that's maybe a spot. But yeah, let's say it wasn't a doctor and it was just some, you know, gym influencer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not doing anything licensed and you're just saying, hey, take this peptide, it works for me. And showing a testimony of people that were on it while you were personal training them. So, like, take the licensures out of the way. I'm going. I mean, legally, what, what is it that you're really doing incorrectly? I, I guess maybe.

[B]

I mean, it's a marketing lie because it's not a real person endorsing marketing lies. I mean, we avoid it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like with our products. Because it bothers me. I was like, you can't have fake people saying like, this was the best thing. This changed my life. If that wasn't real, then it's a lie. But most marketing is like that. And like, we've worked with marketing companies that are like, yeah, just like, this is a good, this is a good quote. And I was like, is it, is it a real quote? No. Okay, then we're not putting it out as a real quote. Like, you can't do that. But marketing companies just do that. Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky out there.

[A]

Oh, it's, it's. We're in a whole new frontier of deep fake AI. This. I mean, gosh, AI brands are exploding across social media with millions of followers that are obviously fake and they're not tied to a single person, which means that they'll say anything, do anything, and there's no repercussion, there's no long term damage. They'll just pop up a new one if they say something too dumb. It's just. Yeah, that's. I think, I think finding somebody that you can relate to, that is authentic, that you can trust, that's doing the research, is going to become more and more and more valuable.

[B]

I agree. Okay, Jabin, where can people find you online?

[A]

Dr. Jabin Moore on basically anything. Instagram, YouTube, my website. We're putting out information all the time because like I said here I was sick and I just, I couldn't find someone to help me. And that's partially my goal, is just to help people to learn to be educated, to understand what's going on out there honestly, to help people to some degree have enough information where they can make an informed decision about their health. So look up Dr. Jaben Moore.

[B]

Cool. Well, thank you very much for coming on. That was fun.

[A]

Thanks for having me, Sam.