An Appreciation of Women - Episode 29

Summary

The Musers The Podcast – Episode 29: An Appreciation of Women

Date: January 28, 2026
Hosts: George Dunham, Craig “Junior” Miller, Gordon Keith
Theme: A humor-filled, honest, and sometimes poignant discussion among the three hosts about their lifelong perspectives on women, including childhood friendships, cultural expectations, beauty standards, relationships, communication differences, and the mysteries (and misunderstandings) of the opposite sex.

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Episode Overview

In this candid and comedic episode, the Musers devote an entire session to "an appreciation of women." With their trademark blend of self-deprecation, storytelling, and playful debate, George, Junior, and Gordo reflect on everything from early childhood experiences to modern pressures on women and the enduring communication gaps between men and women. The trio examines societal norms, personal anecdotes about dating and relationships, and the evolution of gendered expectations—all from their guy-centric, frequently self-aware point of view.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Childhood Encounters and Attitudes Toward Girls (00:33–04:34, 14:59–17:46)

• George and Craig admit they were sports-obsessed as kids, putting less emphasis on girls, while Gordo was more fascinated by “the ladies world”—clothes, toys, even makeup.
• George: “I thought women were interesting, girls were interesting, but sports was more interesting to me.” (01:35)
• Gordo reflects on fond memories of sleepovers and being “girl-crazy at a very young age,” drawing incredulity from the others.
• Discussion about shifting courtship language: “Go steady” of the ‘50s/’70s vs. just “hanging out” or “Netflix and chill” today. (02:54)
• Gordo: “The aesthetics of femaleness were awesome. …Watching my mom do her makeup or later on, you know, watching girlfriends do makeup and stuff. I just thought that that was so cool that girls had all these things that were feminine and girly.” (16:15)

2. Beauty Standards, Makeup, and Body Image (17:02–23:41)

• Debate over makeup’s role in women’s self-perception and societal pressures.
• Craig: “I think the majority of women, not all, look better without makeup.” (17:02)
• Gordo counters: “The problem is that most of the time when guys think that a girl does not have makeup on, she has makeup on.” (17:12)
• Concerns voiced about teens/adolescents seeking cosmetic surgeries due to unrealistic societal and social media-driven beauty standards.
• “Now you had the advent of Instagram…and you’re never going to look as good as the people on [there]...” – Gordo (22:08)

3. Communication and Embarrassment: The “Fart” Digression (04:34–13:16)

• The guys receive a letter about how to handle embarrassing moments in front of women, which spins into a long segment about male vs. female attitudes to bodily functions.
• Gordo’s aversion to the word 'fart' becomes a running joke. (04:39–05:26)
• Consensus: farting and similar humor is best left out of mixed-gender situations, especially in relationships or family dynamics, reflecting their upbringings.
• “You should never do the pull my finger, you should never lift your leg and look right at your spouse.” – Craig (12:25)
• “That is a deal breaker right there.” – Craig, on the infamous “pull my finger” gag from a wife. (12:14)

4. Dating, Relationships, and Social Rituals (23:41–44:44)

• George and Craig share recollections of being too shy to talk to girls, with “paralysis by analysis” setting in when crushes were involved.
• “You’ve got to not care.” – Gordo, explaining his approach to flirting and how humor helped him connect.(27:56)
• Discussion of the “job interview” feeling of early dates vs. organic, friendship-based relationships.
• “Dates could feel that way—because you’re wanting to make sure you put on the best impression, and so you kind of omit the negative parts of your life.” – Gordo (60:48)
• They muse on the challenge (and sometimes comedy) of male-female communication styles:
  • Men’s directness vs. women’s preference for subtle hints.
  • “Women operate in this area of subtlety…and if I have to ask you to do it, it doesn’t feel like you’re doing a romantic gesture.” – Gordo, relaying a woman's perspective (38:03)
  • Craig: “Guys want the obvious. And women want you to kind of read their mind.” (37:07)
• After-date "debriefings": women dissecting details versus men giving a one-word answer (“how’d it go?” — “Great”). (39:21)

5. Societal Double Standards and Gender Differences (28:13–63:49)

• Gordo challenges the notion that women’s beauty standards are dictated solely by men, noting women are mostly in charge of the very magazines that perpetuate them.
• Host agreement that the burden to be “put together” is unfairly heavier on women but also note many women enjoy the creative aspects of makeup and fashion.
• Sound advice: self-awareness, communication, and empathy are keys to better understanding the opposite sex.

6. Sex Education, Anatomy, and the Legacy of Babysitters (47:51–57:43)

• The trio reflects on awkward or lacking childhood sex education—often delivered by school, not parents.
• Infantilized understanding among men of basic female biology persists into adulthood.
• “The amount of guys who don’t know anything about female anatomy is shocking.” – Gordo (55:20)
• Humorous and eye-opening stories about babysitters—a common denominator in misadventures and early “education"—and the perils of being the adult who drives the sitter home alone. (52:16–54:44)

7. Relationship Advice and Lasting Takeaways (58:08–64:21)

• Craig: “The women who are all about drama are the women that I probably should have run from...Just find somebody normal. Find a normal human being that doesn’t want drama 24/7.” (58:08)
• George on finding a spouse: “Just find somebody... that you’re comfortable around...from the first time we were together, just us, I just felt...very natural.” (59:00)
• Friendship before dating as a possible indicator of long-term compatibility, though dating apps may be making this approach rare.
• Fundamental difference in how men and women process issues: women want to talk and process; men want to fix.
  • Gordo: “A lot of times when women are talking about a problem, they’re not looking for a solution. And that short-circuited me.” (61:07)
• The closing plea: Give each other grace; aim for patience and understanding rather than winning the “battle of the sexes.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (selected with timestamps)

• “We were more into sports than girls. I mean, I thought women were interesting, girls were interesting, but sports was more interesting to me.” – George (01:35)
• “The aesthetics of femaleness were awesome...watching my mom do her makeup...I just thought that that was so cool...” – Gordo (16:15)
• “You should never do the pull my finger, you should never lift your leg and look right at your spouse.” – Craig (12:25)
• “I've been in relationship after relationship from…Started in eighth grade, I think." – Gordo (29:56)
• “I think both things can be true. They can look amazing with makeup on…but sometimes...they don’t need all that.” – George (19:01)
• “Women run this for women. But yet somehow men are responsible for these impossible beauty standards.” – Gordo (21:00)
• “Guys want the obvious. And women operate in this area of subtlety, and they want you to kind of read their mind.” – Craig (37:07)
• “The amount of guys who don’t know anything about female anatomy is shocking.” – Gordo (55:20)
• “Guys, patience and listen. And for women on the other side, bullet-pointed list and let's get to a solution.” – George (63:58)
• “Give each other grace...she needs to have patience to understand that it’s hard for him to listen to it...because he's wanting to make this discomfort that you're experiencing...go away.” – Gordo (63:49)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• Opening and Episode Theme (Appreciation of Women, Setup): 00:00–01:03
• Childhood Experiences with Girls: 01:03–03:14
• Language of Dating Across Generations: 02:21–02:58
• Embarrassing Moments and Bodily Functions: 04:34–13:16
• Diverging Upbringings and Gendered Humor: 14:59–23:41
• Makeup, Beauty, and Social Pressure: 17:02–23:41
• Relationship Dynamics, Dates, and Befriending First: 23:41–44:44
• Communication Differences and Storytelling: 37:00–46:08
• Male Curiosity, Sex Ed, and Babysitter Tales: 47:51–57:43
• Advice for Younger Men, Friendship First, Modern Challenges: 58:08–61:07
• Final Reflections on Listening and Grace: 61:07–64:21

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Episode Insights & Takeaways

• The Musers demonstrate, with humor and candor, the depth of misunderstanding and fascination men have with women, both individually and as a gender.
• Despite generations of change, the basics—awkward first encounters, societal expectations, the need for empathy—remain the same.
• The hosts argue for “meeting in the middle” and giving each other grace over attempting to determine which gender is “right,” noting that both sides have legitimate, often fundamentally different needs and perspectives.
• Above all, the episode celebrates women while recognizing, sometimes sheepishly, that the male perspective is limited—but not unappreciative.

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Listener Note:
If you’ve missed the episode, this summary covers all substantial content, stories, and debates, delivering the heart and humor of The Musers’ always-engaging conversation about “the womenfolk.”

Transcript

[A]

Yeah. Who feels the pressure that I'm supposed to look like the filter? Maybe all people do that. Use them, I don't know. But I want to start using a filter. I never even think about it. I want a butt lift and. Oh, okay, a bit delayed, but here it is. The Musers, the podcast, episode 29, an appreciation of women. Hey there. Welcome to a very special episode of the Musers, the podcast starring the Musers, the podcasters, your old pal Gordo.

[B]

And I'm even an older pal, George.

[C]

And I'm your brand new pal, Craig.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. And we're gonna. We're very excited about today's episode because today's episode is about one of our favorite subjects, at least my favorite subject. Women's the women folk.

[B]

Women's the ladies.

[A]

And of course, it's gonna be a very fraught episode because you got three guys talking about women and there's no women here to offer the counterpoints. But we're giving the guy's perspective.

[B]

We can say anything.

[A]

It's our experience. Right. That's what the podcast is about, our experience. So we're going to intimately discuss women. They're magical, they're mysterious, they. Gosh, we're such a central focus of our lives. Growing up, you guys, were you friends? Who was your first good girlfriend?

[B]

Oh, gosh, I don't know. I see. I think Craig and I are different than you. We were more into sports than girls.

[A]

Yeah. For most of our childhood, I thought sports was.

[B]

I mean, I thought women were interesting, girls were interesting, but sports was more interesting to me.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't have any girlfriends through grade school, you know, other than girls you went to class with. But like, you, Gordo had friends. Your best friend was a girl kind of thing.

[A]

My very first best friend was a.

[B]

Girl and he was girl crazy at a very young age.

[A]

Used to have sleepovers, like all the time.

[C]

That's crazy to me.

[B]

Yeah, that is crazy.

[C]

George and I were also girl crazy. We just didn't know how to act upon that. We were too scared to act upon that.

[B]

I thought they were amazing, but I way too scared to talk to them, let alone ask them out or will you go steady with me? I knew guys did that in elementary school. I didn't know what that. I still don't know what that means.

[A]

Yeah, well, that term is stupid. That was from 50s, isn't it? You want to go steady? Go steady where?

[B]

I don't know, but it was a part of our childhood when the 50s, it was. Do you want to. Or I think we had reduced it to do you just want to go.

[A]

Go with.

[B]

You want to go with me?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You want to go with me?

[B]

Yeah, I'll go with you.

[C]

It wasn't the 50s, but it was the 70s, and both were a long time ago.

[B]

Yes, it's 50 years ago.

[C]

We weren't that removed from the 50s, so some of that lingo was still around.

[B]

So kids say. What do they say now? You want to hang out? Yeah, just want to hang. You wanna hang with me?

[A]

Netflix and chill.

[B]

You want to chill with me?

[A]

Yeah. I don't know what the. The term would be for, like, you're talking about younger. Like, elementary school.

[B]

Like elementary school, junior high, even high school.

[A]

Just call it your girlfriend.

[B]

Boyfriend, I guess.

[C]

Is that even a deal anymore or do kids just hang out?

[A]

I think they just hang out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they hook up later in.

[B]

Junior high and they make it official on social media.

[A]

All right, before we get to our awkward first encounters with women in our very heteronormative episode, we do have to do our letter of the week. And our letter of the Week comes to us from Cheeves. He thanked us for our podcast on embarrassing Moments, said he really enjoyed it, and it prompted him to talk to his young daughters about how these embarrassing things happen to everyone and wanted his daughters to know that we all feel the same way. But he continues, it raises an interesting question. If you're present when a friend or family member has an embarrassing moment, should you, A, pretend it didn't happen, B, console them, but risk making it seem worse because you're just so super sorry for them? And A, that was just really rough. Or C, make light of it. As to de Tusk the elephant in the room, he shares this story. Years ago, a very attractive and elegant woman lawyer was in my office and in the middle of a vigorous discussion of a case, we were fighting. She had some, what he calls rearward facing bottom air.

[B]

Rearward facing bottom air, Also known as a fart.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

Oh. Worst word ever.

[C]

So as long as I've known you 30 years, and I've heard you say every harsh cuss word imaginable multiple times, but you will not say the word fart. Why are you so averse to that word?

[A]

It's just. I hate that word. I don't know why. It's the same way that a lot of women hate the C word that rhymes with bunt. Gosh, I don't want to get into what word that is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, we're just Giving you a few little breadcrumbs there. Yeah. Kind of get to it yourself.

[C]

But fart is like the worst word. Why does it hit you so strangely?

[A]

Or harsh, bad? It's just. I don't know. It's just. I don't know. It's kind of a gross word, isn't it?

[C]

Say it.

[A]

No, it's a funny word. Okay. Did your parents say that word to you?

[B]

Well, no.

[C]

No. No way.

[A]

Why not? Since it's just such a great word and everyone ought to be using it constantly.

[B]

Old school. And parents back then didn't talk about that word There.

[C]

There's a new article out asking whether you were raised in a Fart Pride household or a fart shame one. We didn't have that article. Ours were fart shame households.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So, no, they're not going to issue or say the word fart at any moment.

[A]

I couldn't imagine growing up in a household in which all family members were just directing fire at each other like that.

[C]

I can't either.

[A]

It's just. It's weird to me. But hey, you know, different people grow up different ways. And anyway, Cheeves continues.

[B]

If you remember.

[A]

If you guys remember, way back in our story that we were hearing.

[B]

Okay, yeah, yeah.

[A]

About this elegant woman lawyer who was.

[C]

Attractive and she farted in the middle.

[A]

See there, in the middle of closing.

[B]

Arguments, he said fart.

[A]

He continues. She was horrified and we made the most awful eye contact possible. Wanting to soothe her somehow, I instinctively chose option C and made a joke about it. I said, mk, not sure that will help. She laughed. She laughed and was still so embarrassed. But my jocularity about it seemed to make it less awkward for her. Interested in what y' all think? Did he choose correctly? And making a joke about it? I think that he should have just ignored and pretended like, not happen.

[B]

Yeah. You're playing roulette either way. Especially if you say something like, I think B is a good answer for.

[A]

Which was console them, but risk making it seem worse.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You don't console them.

[C]

No, you can't console them, particularly in a courtroom.

[A]

You're not going to walk over there and put your arm around the opposing attorney.

[B]

But it was first proposed as an embarrassing moment for a family member. I think in some cases, for an embarrassing moment, you say, hey, it's no big deal. Don't worry about it. It's fine. It happens to everybody.

[A]

And see, that just makes it. It's too much attention to it. Just move on.

[C]

You can't go over to that woman, put your arm around her and say, I'm so sorry you farted again.

[A]

Just please stop it.

[C]

And then we all heard, why are you doing this?

[B]

But in this case, I would say, yeah, either ignoring it or turns out he was right. Just make a mild joke. But you run the risk there of making it worse because she could have thought. And then he joked about it and he's not going to take me seriously anymore. So yeah, either way is risky.

[A]

That's why she should have headed this off at the pass. And just immediately after she does this, just immediately say, your honor, I moved to have that stricken from the record.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Because then no one can comment on it either any which way.

[C]

It also depends on what that person did, who that person is. Like, if it's your kid and they're six and they have an embarrassing moment, you're not going to make a joke out of it necessarily to further embarrass them. At that point, you probably console. But a stranger in a professional setting that farts, I mean, I think he was probably right to make a little joke to release the tension from the room.

[B]

Okay, what is wrong with us? We're just sitting around laughing about this. We've been laughing at farts now for two weeks straight.

[A]

Have you ever witnessed somebody do that in a presentation or in some public way like that? As an adult? As an adult would be the phrase that was attempted three times other than.

[C]

Our fart stories from last week. Like, I witnessed George do that in a public presentation in a girls room.

[B]

Yeah, very public fart, very loud.

[C]

But no, not like never had a teacher or a boss or anything like that.

[A]

Well, and I do think this leads us into our topic of women because I think we're all in agreement that you don't mix those worlds.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. You don't miss mix that up at all. And maybe that's because we grew up in that type of household and maybe we think about our moms. And I used to tell my boys all the time, stop talking about it. Stop doing that in front of your mom. And we would go on trips and I'll go ahead and bust them. They had a game.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

I think it wasn't very creative what they came up with for a name. I think it was called the fart game. And their big thing was so they.

[A]

Didn'T have to hire an outside consultant to come up with that name, they probably should have spend a lot on that.

[B]

And they would jump from one bed in the hotel room to the other. And the goal was to let Fly as they were in the air.

[C]

Interesting game.

[B]

Now, I thought it was hilarious, but I couldn't laugh about it.

[A]

And she would say she was trying to reprimand.

[B]

Yes. Could you make them stop as they're.

[A]

In full Michael Jordan from the top of the key going across.

[B]

And of course, if one of them pulled it off, they would cry, laugh for 15 minutes. And maybe part of it was the fact that they were doing that in front of their parents.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Kind of like you did as a kid. Shoot the wheels off of our parents right here in the hotel room. And then I'd pull them aside. Boys, just don't do that in front of your mom, okay?

[A]

Just show a little my dad. Why are you so uptight, dad?

[B]

I'm not uptight, but it's just, we don't. We don't do that.

[A]

We can't help it, dad.

[B]

You're going to get married someday. And don't do it in front of her either.

[C]

Did they have uniforms with the bottom Air Jordan log?

[B]

They should have.

[A]

Well, you know, obviously there's some couples that disagree with the three of us on this. And also got a letter from this guy who told the story of he never did that with any. And he even discounted girls when he was dating. If she even talked about it, he was like, ah, that's not. You don't mix fields. And then he ends up marrying this one girl that they had never had a history of any conversation or displays of that kind of activity. And then married to her. And at some point she turns to him and he tells the story that she said for him to pull her finger.

[C]

No deal breaker.

[A]

And then she let loose with what he described as a mid-40s Japanese nuclear blast type thing.

[C]

That is a deal breaker right there.

[A]

Yeah, he said that it made him grow closer.

[C]

I think couples can talk about it, but you should never perform in front of the other.

[B]

Agreed.

[C]

You should never do the pull my finger, you should never lift your leg and look right at your spouse.

[A]

Oh, Direct eye contact.

[B]

Oh, no, no, you shouldn't. And this is coming from a guy who supports fart humor. I never got to pull my finger gag. I never thought. I always thought that was weird. When I go to a friend's house and his dad would do that gag. I was just thinking, man, that's just really weird.

[A]

So I don't understand that gag. So does it like after you've done it once, doesn't the kid know not to touch the hot stove again? I mean, you're not gonna fall for that. Or maybe the kid enjoys it. What?

[B]

I guess it's a guaranteed laugh for everybody involved. I think we need to end it.

[A]

Yeah, we need to end that practice. We need to pass some laws about it.

[C]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Okay, our topic, the ladies women. Yeah, we did have different upbringings on that. I was just always fascinated with the, with the ladies and with the ladies world. I don't know if you guys were like this, like you liked all the things that were girly. I liked the girl section of the toy aisle. I liked all the outfits that my mom and sister would get to wear. My cousin, who was a girl, the bows they got to wear in the hair. It was back in the days in the 70s when the girls would wear those, that yarn they would Tie a bow with yarn in their hair.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

And you would put all of that on. You would dress up.

[A]

There is a picture of me when I'm three years old and I'm dressed up and I'm wearing high heels and I'm holding a purse and I think I had a fisherman's hat on top. I don't know if it was necessarily a lady's hat, but.

[B]

But yeah, I know I was not fascinated with the. The world of. With a girl's world or a woman's world when I was little. I was like Craig was saying we were consumed by sports.

[C]

The girls section of a toy store was about the most boring thing I could ever imagine.

[A]

Colors were so pretty, though. All that pastel and Easter egg looking.

[C]

No interest.

[B]

No. No cool stuff.

[A]

Yeah, it was cool. Now I like the boys section too. I liked all toys, but I just thought that the aesthetics of femaleness were awesome. And I thought it was magical watching my mom do her makeup or later on, you know, watching girlfriends do makeup and stuff. I just thought that that was so cool that girls had all these things that were feminine and girly.

[C]

See that? That always looked like a pain to me. Like they have to do all this stuff every day and we just wake.

[A]

Yeah. Well, yes, there's advantages, certainly time wise and not having to do it, but the doing of it seemed kind of meditative and magical. They'd be silent and I'd hear that makeup drawer rattle around and they pull out lipstick. Watching a girl put on lipstick, that was cool.

[C]

I have a hot sports opinion. I think the majority of women, not all majority of women, look better without makeup.

[A]

I think you're wrong.

[C]

I've told my wife this several times, that the most beautiful moments I've ever seen her in, she has had no makeup on.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the problem is, is that most of the time when guys think that a girl does not have makeup on, she has makeup on. Like, if you see them completely without makeup, it is a different, different look than the no makeup look in air quotes? Because there's slight makeup that goes on in the no makeup look, and guys normally confuse that with absolutely no makeup.

[C]

Isn't it kind.

[A]

There is a difference.

[C]

Isn't it kind of wrong, though, that society requires women to be made up in order to go out in public and be attractive? Like, I just.

[A]

Well, that's a difficult. That's a difficult subject because yes, on the one hand, that is an unfair burden, the burden of appearance, but it also is something that a lot of women enjoy like, and I thought that was always a cool feature of femaleness. Yes, you hate that if you're required to do it all the time. But the fact that your clothes have so much variation. You can dress as a guy one day, you know, in a Annie hall type outfit. You can get just all glammed up and tarted up. You can dress up, you know, little House on the Prairie style. Like, women can just get away with any look they want to if they want to. And guys just felt so narrow. And you can do your makeup 50 different ways. Like, I. I've sat there and watched makeup tutorials on YouTube. It's like a girl goes, okay, today I'm going to do this, I don't know, Egyptian look or whatever, whatever they're doing. And it's like they look like a completely different person than the tutorial they just showed you the day before. Like, that's magical, these transformations that you can do.

[B]

I think both things can be true. They can look amazing with makeup on. But I think Craig's right. Sometimes when they're just with a very natural look, they don't need all that. And now, to me, I find it sad along those lines of they have to do all this work. We have teenagers that are getting lip jobs and botoxing and what.

[A]

Hey. Yeah, there were some. There's some teenagers who get, like, boob jobs at 16.

[B]

And that. That's just.

[C]

Yeah. The appearance pressure for women is. Is unhealthy. I really think it's unhealthy.

[B]

Yeah, I do, too. Especially when they go to the extreme. You see a woman with a lot of makeup on, he's like, you don't need all that. And with maybe in her mind, that's. That's how she looks best. And some people like that look, but it's just. I don't know, it's too much.

[A]

Yeah, but think about even the statement, you don't need all that. That's a guy's opinion of what the girl needs. It's like they determine whether or not they need that, and they determine whether or not they feel that. You know, the weird thing is, is that. And this is something that I think a lot of guys struggle with, is that women talk about the pressure of beauty standards and how high that is and what a pressure that is. And there are a lot of guys who. Who don't notice all this stuff that women seem to notice about beauty. And I think guys would be satisfied, like you said, with a lot less of that stuff. Yeah, they don't they don't really require all of that at all times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know, heck, think about your crushes in high school. Seeing a girl in sweatpants is like one of the cutest things ever. Just a ponytail and sweatpants hanging out with her girlfriends after cheerleader practice.

[B]

Yeah, after one of those.

[A]

But. But yes, the whole magazine industrial complex. I just remember Cosmo magazine being a huge thing back in the day and the girl saying to me one time, I mean, look at these mag. Look at how much pressure we're under to look like all this and everything. I'm like, look at the magazine masthead. And it's all of its women. And like, women run this for women. But yet somehow men are responsible for these impossible beauty standards. And they don't seem to have much of a hand in the making of these magazines that are giving you the looks that you're supposed to feel less than because you don't look like. Yeah, it's like there's some missing element in this, in this equation that's getting to the overburden of looks.

[B]

I was about to say maybe it's better today and the expectation, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's worse now. If we're talking about actually having work done in your teens or your twenties. Maybe it is worse now.

[C]

That's coming back though, isn't it? Like, I mean, being pulled back. Not as many women get boob jobs and feels like plastic surgery.

[B]

Maybe not that, but the facial work, Botoxing and the lip thing, which I still don't get.

[A]

We're all idiots talking about. Right. But, but to me, it seems like it's worse now too because now you have the advent of Instagram.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And now you had the advent of, you know, back in our, back in our day, it was just boob jobs.

[B]

Yeah, we liked it.

[A]

Now we got fillers and we got Brazilian butt lifts and we've got all this other kind of body modification that goes on that is a whole different level of pressure. And then you add to the fact of that you're never going to look as good as the people on social media platform because their face is tuned. You know, with, with filters and things like this, you can use. We're getting to a point where no one will. No one even looks like that. Or you just. Everyone turns on the same filter and then in real life everyone looks. Yeah, wheels off. But online we all look great.

[C]

Because you have that filter option. Do you have to actually go get the implants?

[A]

Yeah. Who, who feels the pressure that I'm supposed to look like the filter. Maybe all people do that. Use them. I don't know. But I want to start using a filter. I never even think about it. I want a butt lift and. Oh, okay.

[C]

My. My guess is that 20 years ago, breast implants were a lot bigger than they are today.

[B]

You may be right about that.

[C]

I think. I think the big boob thing is starting to wane. I don't think women desire that anymore. I think you guys are right about the facial, you know, new fillers and whatever they're using there. Maybe butt implants. Yeah, the spackle. But I bet you the. The fake boob industry is in decline.

[B]

Okay, I got one for you. As we talk about how we viewed girls when we were growing. How did you, Gordo, at such a young age.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Get the courage to talk to girls. That was the toughest thing for me, was to interact with them. Especially if you were, I don't know, maybe in fifth grade or. Or so you're starting to get interested in girls, and there's that one particular girl that you like. How did you get up enough courage to talk to them? Because that took me almost to my junior year in high school before I could have a conversation.

[A]

I always just remember it was humor. It was just, you know, make a joke and you see the ones that laugh. And then I would gravitate towards those girls because I liked their laugh and their sense of humor. And then usually if they're laughing at the same something that I'm doing, that shows that you have a kind of shared sense of humor, and then they joke and then they're funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, I felt like, you know, that is the magical thing about humor. It's this incredible social lubrication that can connect you with someone instantly. Instantly. If you're all involved in a situation with a group of people and you make a joke and you see the person who laughs, and it's like you immediately form a connection with them. So, yeah, it was always me joking around and the girls would laugh at that. And then that becomes.

[B]

See, I would have run off.

[A]

You know, it's almost. This is the weird. Here I go off on my weird tangents. You know, it's almost an Erzatz sexual thing. I mean, think about this. You can say something and it causes someone to have a bodily reaction of joy, you know, and that joy brings you joy. Seeing someone in pleasure, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not sexual. You know what I'm saying? It's like that idea of. And so that bonds you to that person.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

So, yeah, that's the way I always was friends with girls, is because I liked making them laugh. I liked seeing joy on those faces and knowing that, hey, I had something to do with that. You know, I said something that. That brought them. That I get to see. It was my early form of seeing female pleasure.

[B]

Yeah. See, I guess I was just too into the Three Stooges and Fart humor to really try to make them laugh, because the girls.

[A]

Yeah, that was not the kind of humor that they were into. Not so much.

[B]

They're not really.

[A]

At least not with boys.

[B]

Yeah. We were talking about embarrassing moments, and I think I told you guys this. I think we've covered it on the podcast. Maybe not, but that girl you have the crush on, and at some point you got to call her and say if you're going to act on this. And I called her and she answered, and I couldn't do it. I hung up.

[A]

You hung up? Yeah, as soon as she got on. Or before she.

[B]

I mean, the moment she said hello.

[A]

Oh, she answered. Yeah.

[C]

She didn't have caller id, did she?

[B]

No, she did somehow, Even way back in those ancient days. Somehow, because. Let's go.

[A]

She may have 69 you.

[C]

I don't think so. It doesn't sound like it.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[C]

Star 69.

[A]

Is that the way it's pronounced?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But the phone rang like two or three minutes later. And maybe she just. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, that she just knew I was going to call her because it's that whole thing about, Hey, I think he's going to call you because he really likes you and.

[A]

All this stuff, the setup and.

[B]

Hey, did you just call here?

[A]

You know, let me check my records real quick. Yeah, somebody here did. I'm not sure if it was me or not.

[B]

Yeah, may have been my dad.

[A]

How long ago was this? It was 60 seconds ago. Yeah, it's not ringing a bell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gosh, I don't know.

[B]

I'll see you tomorrow.

[A]

Hung up on her again.

[B]

Yeah, it was just a panic. And maybe the problem there was. It was that whole crush thing. You built them up. And do. How do you even talk to this goddess that you've built up in your mind?

[A]

Yes. And that is absolutely a. A problem. Like the. The life hack here to me was always, you've got to not care. You've got to not care about the result of this. I'm going to go and I'm going to make a joke in front of this girl, and if she doesn't laugh. Okay, fine. There's other girls.

[B]

I'll find another target.

[C]

That's so hard to do for kids who care about everything.

[A]

But as soon as you get to where you really have a crush on a girl, this would happen to me, you know, Then it'd be like. Then I get paralyzed. Then it becomes paralysis by analysis. What should I say to her? If I say this, that may go wrong. No, I can't say this. Should I go up to her right now? Oh, no. Her friend just walked up to her. I can't do it right now. All right, I'll wait till the friend walks away. And then the friend walks away, and then I'm gonna go to her. Oh, she took one step in that direction, so I probably shouldn't, you know, and then all that starts, and it's just hate that.

[B]

I know. It's terrible. And like I said, I was probably. And I also think I waited till, like, I was 16 where I could actually go on a. A date where you could pick her up and wouldn't have to have my parents drop us off at the movies or something like that. But I remember that phone call for the first date, and I remember being shocked that she said yes. Oh, really? Oh, okay.

[A]

I didn't plan for this.

[B]

Yeah. What do you want?

[A]

I'm gonna have to get back to you.

[B]

I have no idea what we're doing. I'll call you back.

[A]

I planned for rejection.

[B]

Didn't get that far.

[A]

You know, I've never been on a date. A date date. Like someone I just never have.

[C]

That doesn't make any sense.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I mean, high school, you never called a girl and said, hey, you want to go see a movie? And you'd go pick her up and go to a movie.

[A]

Don't think I have. No, I would always. You know, it'd be like a group of people would go to a movie, right? And there would be a girl there that I liked or they got along with. And then I was just always in relationships. I mean, I was just. I've been in relationship after relationship from. Started in eighth grade, I think.

[C]

But those sometimes start with a date or at some point eventually get to where you're taking them out to dinner.

[A]

Yeah. Now that. Well, that's the thing. It depends on how you define a date after you already have a girlfriend. If you two do anything together, is, by definition, everything you do together a date?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think a lot of it is.

[A]

Like, hey, we're going to walk to the park. We're just hanging out. But it was the same thing I was doing with my friends. Hey, you hungry? Let's go get something to eat. You know, were those dates when we would just go to, you know, hey, you hungry? Yeah. Okay, let's. Let's walk down here and go to sleep.

[B]

I guess a different kind of. You didn't plan it. And saying, hey, this Saturday, I got a plan for us.

[A]

To me, I was associated dating with someone that you were interested in, but you're not yet girlfriend, boyfriend, or.

[C]

So that only happens in the first five meetings with that person. Those are only dates. And after that, it's not a date anymore.

[A]

I guess in one definition of it. Yeah. I guess in the other definition is, like, every time. Like, every time you and your wife go out to eat. Giorgio, you call that a date?

[B]

We still call that a date.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A couple. Even if it's just a Wednesday. And she's like, I don't feel like cooking tonight. And then you go down to the restaurant.

[B]

We don't do that.

[A]

Date night.

[C]

We have date night. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a separate, official date.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially when we had kids at home, we would have to designate, hey, Saturday, let's go on a date. Let's go see a movie or something.

[A]

Okay. So then what I'm talking about is, like, dating someone. Like, dating someone is different than going on a date. Because he's talking about, like, last night. Would you say that you were dating around with your wife, or would you say, no, we just went on. It was a date.

[C]

So your question is, when you're dating someone, when does the dating stop? And I would say that's probably after five or ten dates.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you're hanging out.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you're. Then you're actually going with them.

[A]

Yeah. And the girls that I would become girlfriends to me, were always friends. Basically first. Yeah. So it was very unclear. When did we. Okay, last night we went out to eat, and we were going out to eat, and now all of a sudden, tonight, it's. Now it's a date. You know, it didn't make any sense.

[B]

Because it was like, it's a formality thing that's probably not necessary.

[C]

So you always had friends and relationships that developed or, you know, became more serious. So you never had the moment where you called a girl and asked her on a date. You never had that moment or had to remember it or had to walk up to her. You never. You. You were never the kickstarter for a relationship Through a date? Through any kind of asking. The.

[A]

No, not that I remember. Now, the only time that I remember that experience was the phone call to ask a girl to a dance. Like, I do remember that feeling of nervousness and calling up, and this is a girl that I'm not close friends with and that, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So like junior high, when you're calling up and hey, this one.

[C]

So is that a date or is that a dance?

[A]

That would be a dance, I would think.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So the prom is not a date, but it seems like a date.

[A]

It does seem like a date, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah, it's a. It's a date. It's a dance date.

[A]

And I would love to know, like, what the women's experience of all these things are. Like, a girl has to wait for a guy to ask her out back in the day. Yeah, right. And. Or a guy to ask her to a dance. Unless it was a twerp dance or a Sadie Hawkins dance. Those were the girls asked the guys. But I always wondered which is worse, the guy having to ask girls out and constantly trying to try and getting shot down and getting rejected over and over again. Or is it the woman's experience, typical experience of having to wait around for someone to ask you out. Like they both have disadvantages and advantages. Sure.

[B]

I told you my wife and I were friends first. And I don't know if I've even told you this story. Even Junior knows this because we were all in a friend friendship group, and we went to a astronomy lab together, and she drove, and she was going to drop me back off at our apartment north of Denton, and we're driving back and she said, hey, you want to go grab a coffee? And I'm so stupid. That was kind of her making the first move of, you know, because we had talked too, about, hey, would it just freak everyone out if, like, we went out on a date? You know, just you and I went out? So we'd already had that conversation. And then she kind of took the first step, and I said, I don't drink coffee. Hey, thanks.

[C]

See ya.

[B]

And I didn't think anything about it at the time. And then months later, she said, you know, I was kind of asking you out, right? And I said, well, and all you said was, I don't drink coffee.

[A]

No, you didn't ask me out. You asked me to go if I wanted some coffee. I said, no. I mean, I didn't want coffee.

[B]

And I thought, man, what an idiot. But again, that's how we.

[A]

You're not an idiot, Giorgio. That is one of the primary differences, speaking broadly, of course, is that men and women, they communicate very differently. You know, women have all these things that it frustrates them that they feel like they've told the guy something and that he has not done the thing that she wanted done. She thought she communicated it clearly, or she feels like everything that she can read because women read tea leaves and they can. They know what things mean and all this. And your example is such a perfect example of the differences in the way that men and women generally communicate, which is that they have a very indirect form of communication that makes total sense to them, that the guy just doesn't pick up on it.

[B]

Yeah, totally didn't pick up on it.

[A]

And then they can get frustrated with the guy. You know, like, I mean, I've had that happen before where some. I'll have some. Be like, on what you guys would call a date, you're with your steady. Right, Right. And you're out, and waitress comes over and takes your order, and that interchange happens, and the waitress walks away, and the lady's like, oh, my God, she was totally flirting with you. And you're like, what? No, she wasn't. What are you talking about? And like, they can. They interpret all these actions that. That the guys just don't. We don't pick up for that.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. There's all this, you know, I. I've heard girls talk about other women in ways that I just. I don't understand. Oh, look at. She thinks she's so cute. Look at her. She just. It's like, how are you. How are you getting that?

[B]

I don't know how they construct all of that. I know it.

[A]

They see all a bunch of subtext that. That Ms. Guys completely.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Guys are. Guys want the obvious. And women operate in this area of subtlety, and they want you to kind of read their mind. Whereas if you're conversing with a guy, they'll just tell you straight out what they want or what they don't like about you. But women play all these games, and I.

[A]

Not games in the negative sense, but just kind of like. Yeah. And that's what's magical to the woman, I think, is the guy who picks up on all the signals and does the thing that she wants him to do but doesn't want to have to ask directly. Remember one time having a conversation many years ago with a woman about that, and she said, but asking ruins the magic of, if I have to ask you to do It. It doesn't feel like you're doing a romantic gesture. The romantic gesture comes when you. It comes from you. You do it.

[C]

And that makes sense.

[A]

You intuit my needs and then do that.

[C]

Yeah, I understand that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Boy, and the communication thing is so much different, too. I mean, how do girls communicate or pick up on little, you know, tips or something like that, like when you were at the restaurant. And how do they communicate when you're in school and they're talking to each other clear across the room, Reading lips.

[A]

Lips. Yeah. Do all that kind of stuff.

[B]

I. I still. I mean, if it's really obvious and a coach is dropping an F bomb on a sideline, I can read what, you know, he's just said. But I use my wife as an interpreter of what do you think that guy just said on the sideline? And she'll know it just by looking. I. I cannot do that.

[A]

Think about after a date. You go on a date with a girl back in the day when you're dating and she goes home, and then it's the, you know, she'll talk with her friends, and they'll dissect all the things that happened during that, you know, and trying to figure out how much the guy really likes you and all that. And there's, like, this complete, you know, debriefing with 30 experts, 30 expert panel that she assembles for all this, and diagramming the date and, you know, and the guy goes back home to his roommate. How'd it go? Great. That's it?

[B]

That's it. That's all you have to say?

[A]

All you needed. It's just they work differently, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And that's. And I understand their frustration with us.

[A]

Sure. But in fairness to men, it's like, women need to understand that about men. It's not a negative thing. And I think too often we have to decide who's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Rather than just appreciating who's different. We're both just different. And you try to. Men should try to meet women in the middle, and women meet guys in the middle of, you know, don't get mad at me that I don't understand what you wouldn't ask for directly. You know, you need to appreciate that I communicate differently than you.

[C]

I love that I need to appreciate.

[A]

That you communicate differently than me, and I'll try to move towards you, and you try to move towards me instead of this constant stupid, fake battle of the sexes thing that we've ginned up.

[C]

Reminds me of the old Seinfeld routine. My girlfriend's always asking me what I'm thinking and I'm telling her nothing. I'm not thinking about anything right now. My mind is just blank. Guys don't think about things where women are always wondering and trying to read your facial expressions or your body language or what you said. What did you mean by that? What did you really mean by women are on these other levels and guys are just kind of not really thinking about anything right now?

[B]

We've got nothing.

[C]

We really do.

[A]

Marvel Television's Wonder Man.

[C]

An eight episode series now streaming on Disney.

[A]

A superhero remake. Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning director.

[B]

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[A]

Simon Williams audition for one man. I'm gonna need you to sign this. Assuming you don't have superpowers.

[C]

I never work again.

[B]

If anyone found out.

[A]

My lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder man. All eight episodes now streaming only on Disney plus.

[C]

What's going on?

[B]

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[A]

Have a great day. Okay, now we're in a guy safe space right now. Yeah, just us and our ladies are invited to eavesdrop on us. But yeah, little complaint about female storytelling.

[C]

Too long.

[B]

Way too many details.

[A]

I was going to say it wasn't long enough. You guys have a very different interpretation.

[B]

Yeah, after all these years we've talked about it. I just need just a bullet pointed list of some, some things that happened at this lunch that you just went on. Okay, well, I'm getting to that. But you need to know this because wait till you hear what she says next.

[A]

Yeah, it's like they never met any context that they didn't want to share. You gotta, you know, hey, what'd you get at the store? And then she starts with at the beginning of time. Yeah, the big bang happened. Okay, can we fast forward? Let's go ahead and get to. Can we get to today? And when you get to the store.

[C]

My wife always says, telling a story, telling a story, and then she'll go, long story short. And I say, too late for that.

[A]

Too late for that.

[B]

We're way too deep into this thing.

[C]

There is a way to make stories short.

[A]

And by the same token, you have to realize that they want something a little bit different, your storytelling. And when you come back from, hey, you just got together with your college buddy that you haven't seen in 20 years, and you just got back from your long lunch that you had with them, you guys hung out for four hours. You come in the door, and she asked, you know, how did it go? You know, how is he doing? Great. Great. Fine. You need to give her a little bit more.

[C]

Yeah. We make short stories shorter.

[A]

Right.

[C]

We give no details.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They make it one word somehow.

[C]

Yeah. It was great.

[B]

It really was.

[A]

You need to tell her a little bit more than that and not have to. I don't know why guys, we just always are shortening things to a ridiculous level.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And at the same time, you know, I see why it's frustrating for a woman who ask, you know, about your friend and his family that you just hadn't seen in 20 years, and y' all just caught up for four hours. And how are his kids? I guess fine. He didn't mention them, so I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, we're not talk mostly about his back injury. It's prevented him from playing golf for, like, three months, but.

[A]

So his wife didn't come up or his kids or.

[B]

No, they don't play golf.

[A]

And that is another thing that is you typically see between the friendships, male friendships and female friendships. Female friendships are often based on talking about relationships, other friendships.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Parental relationships, all that kind of stuff. And guys oftentimes organize their friendships around activities.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, you.

[B]

You're.

[A]

It's your. Yeah, I remember that one story that one P1 told of. I think he had a rock climbing buddy guy he went rock climbing with every weekend for like, seven years. And one time the wife asked her husband, you know, hey, you're rock climbing buddy and everything. You know, we ought to invite them over and everything. What's his wife's name? I don't. We never covered that.

[B]

For seven years.

[A]

We never covered it. Never really came up.

[B]

Oh, man, I don't know how you get out of that one. And, hey, we could do Better. We could be better listeners when there is a very detailed story to hang in there and listen to the story. And on the other side, maybe we need to expand our stories a little bit. Maybe we do need to share a little bit about whether it is a sport or activity, talk about that activity and, and go from there.

[A]

Yes, we can do better.

[B]

Guys can do better. There's no doubt.

[A]

Okay. One thing that I think is wrong with guys, as I complain about guys here, is I've. I've been a little bit not understanding of how some guys just don't seem to be interested in a lot of stuff. Like guys just don't have a lot of natural curiosity about women and women's lives and women's stories. And I've hear. Oh, George is raising his hand.

[B]

Come on. It's just a joke. It was a joke.

[A]

I'll hear from girlfriends, you know, friends that are girls, and they'll talk about going out on dates with guys. And the guy never asks about her, ever. He just goes on a monologue about himself or his job or he's. And he never has any questions for her or anyone else.

[C]

It doesn't matter who you're out with. If it's a girl first date with a woman, if it's friends, if it's family, you should always be asking them about their lives. You should show genuine. It should be genuine. You should show interest in them. You don't just sit there and field questions like you're in a press conference.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How are guys just not curious? Are there some people that just aren't curious about other people's lives? I know people like that who they just, they, they'll even say, honestly, yeah, I'm just not interested in other people's lives.

[C]

Yeah. The only thing regarding women that I'm not interested in would be women's basketball. Other than that.

[A]

Yeah, you hate women's basketball.

[B]

Let's just not talk about the wnba.

[C]

I'm fascinated by all women. All right, I've got a question for you guys about women. Did you get the talk? The birds and the bees talk? Did you ever get a sex education class? How did you learn about the physical ness or nature of women?

[B]

From a guy named Mr. Lobb in fifth grade. Who was that? That was our. He was a teacher at our school and he was in charge of the guys. And I think Mrs. Talley was in charge of the girls.

[A]

These are made up names.

[B]

And they would give you your birds and the bees talk because my parents never.

[A]

So your parents outsourced it to our school system.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They just said, hey, look. Yeah. This is the most important thing. This is the whole reason that there's even two different sexes.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But we find this such an unimportant topic, even though it's going to govern the rest of your life, that we just not even going to mention it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Was Mr. Lobb, the tennis coach also.

[B]

No.

[C]

That would have been great.

[B]

It would have been. He wasn't very nice, and it was not the. The guy you want to learn, you know, all those terms from. And I just.

[A]

Did he put a condom on a banana or anything?

[B]

Yeah, there was condom talk, and it was just. It was awful. It was terrible. And that was the other thing, too. Is that too young? Fifth GR grade? Because I remember.

[A]

No, no, it's not too young.

[C]

That's about right.

[B]

I would say yes, because you're having questions, and I guess that's when you start asking those questions. But I just remember thinking, man, I want no part about. No part of this. What he's talking about. Then they show you childbirth, and it's like, oh, gosh. What?

[C]

We had a sex education class, and I think I was in sixth grade, but my parents never, ever said a word about it to me. They outsourced it to my friends and my babysitter and.

[A]

Well, not intentionally.

[C]

Not intentional.

[A]

To your babysitter.

[C]

My mom did have the talk with my sister, but my dad never brought it up with me and my mom never brought it up with me. So I learned it from whatever my friends were telling me. And I had a babysitter that gathered all the kids around once and kind of explained everything. And it was shocking to all of us.

[A]

Like, how did she word it? Because I doubt she was using medical terms.

[C]

You know what? I. No. But she also wasn't using the crudest of crude terms either. I know. It was just like, for some reason, this sticks in my mind. For the F word, she would say fire truck.

[A]

Wait, wait.

[C]

And then the two people. Fire truck. And we were all like, what? And she. Yeah, that's how she would say that. But I have a history with that babysitter. Because when.

[A]

How old were you? Like, at this time when she.

[C]

When she gave the neighborhood the birds and bees talk? I was probably. Yeah, I was probably eight or nine, something like that. Okay. But there were kids younger on the block that were also getting this talk.

[A]

And she was how old?

[C]

I'm guessing she was 14, 15. Somewhere in there one time, I think I've told you guys the Bra story. One time she was sitting for me, my sister and her younger sister. So there were a few kids and she took us into her bedroom and she turned off all the lights and said, we're going to play musical chairs type game. Two people will be on the bed at the same time, two people will be at the foot of the bed. So she organized it so that at one point, my sister and her little sister, my babysitter's little sister, were sitting on the floor and I was in the bed with the babysitter. And I was just so clueless. I had no idea. I didn't know sex. I didn't understand anything. All I knew was that the spurs and the Cowboys were playing and that's all I cared about. And she said to me, I'm going to take off this bra. It's so uncomfortable. And she took it off under her shirt and pulled it out and showed it to me and then threw it on the floor. And it just didn't register with me.

[A]

But years later, this was her asking you to go get coffee and you not picking up on it.

[C]

Years later, I wondered, was she trying to put the moves on me or was she just making me uncomfortable? Or she somehow engineered it so that I got in bed with her and she took off her bra. Was it just a thrill for her and she didn't think it was going anywhere?

[A]

You were at nine.

[B]

That's what I was thinking.

[C]

I was probably nine or ten.

[B]

Yeah, she probably wants to get gonna go any further, but that was the.

[C]

Thrill for be in bed with a boy and take her bra off.

[A]

I never understand why we ever trusted young girls as babysitters. For some reason, we just assumed that a teenage girl is not going to do anything crazy while babysitting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that happened all the time. We've known so many of our guy friends will have a story about a babysitter and yeah, I mean, even if it's not her doing musical beds like this one was doing, they're always inviting their seedy older boyfriend over.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's like you're just having to sit in the other room. Watch it. Hey, y' all sitting here and y' all watch this tv. I put on a cartoon for y' all sitting here and she got that guy always shows up. They always drove Camaros.

[C]

Yes, always.

[A]

Like every one of them, every visiting boyfriend drove a Camaro. And they would always treat babysitting like I said, if she's going to be with you for the weekend, take care of you for the Weekend that was just her and her boyfriend treated it like they got a verbo.

[B]

You know? And I think when we started having kids and would have to hire the babysitter, I think we had the rule, no boyfriends that come over. It's a good rule, but here's another. This is another kind of messed up situation. I found myself as the dad when we would hire a babysitter and we'd get back at midnight and let's say she was 15, she didn't have a driver's license. Sometimes her parents would come pick her.

[A]

Up, and then the dad has to take her home.

[B]

There were times where I had to take the babysitter home, and I didn't think a thing about it at the time.

[A]

But looking back at now, it would be. Yeah, just hold on right here. I'm just installing this rearward facing dash cam. We're gonna make sure we got this fully surveilled.

[C]

Yes. I need you to sign this release.

[B]

And it was a friend of the family.

[A]

This is all Officer Johnson. He'll be riding in the backseat with us.

[B]

I never thought a thing about it, but what if she just made up a story and there's no way I could.

[A]

Women don't make up stories.

[B]

Let's just say this is hypothetical. Maybe she did.

[A]

Women aren't involved in hypotheticals.

[B]

I would never be looked at the same again by anybody. And obviously nothing ever happened. But at the time, I wasn't uncomfortable.

[A]

You do protest too much.

[B]

At the time, I was very comfortable with it because it was a daughter of friends of ours. So, you know, it's no big deal, and there was never a deal. But looking back at it, I don't know. I don't think that's advisable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In today's world.

[A]

Yeah. And it may be uncomfortable for her. And she wanted strange guy. I bet it was.

[B]

Yeah, Those were really quiet rides, too.

[A]

You didn't have much to talk about.

[B]

What's up at school?

[A]

Yeah, you want to make small talk because you don't want it to be just quiet and awkward. You don't want to seem like you're trying to make too much small talk.

[B]

Because then she gets home and he talked the whole way and asked me weird questions.

[A]

I didn't ask her weird questions. I just asked what kind of activities she's involved in.

[B]

Yeah. Second thought, don't leave your kids at home. Just watch them all the time. Don't hire a babysitter.

[A]

I guess now you could hire an Uber to take her home, but Then that seems like it's exposing her to a whole nother level of danger of.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think you do that. I don't know what the right answer is there.

[A]

Yeah, maybe there is no right answer. All right. Yeah. Speaking of guys curiosity about women, the amount of guys who don't know anything about female anatomy is shocking. And I'm talking about guys up into their 20s not knowing how things work. I've had girls tell me stories about. She says to her boyfriend, you know, hey, we need to stop at the store. I need to. You know. She's getting her feminine visit from the. From the uterine lining fairy.

[C]

From Aunt Flo.

[A]

Yes. And she's saying, you know, I need to stop right now and get a product. And he says to her, can't you just hold it? Almost home, so can't you just hold it? So he's like in his 20s and thinking that menstruation is something. It's like a bladder. You can just hold it until you get to a more convenient place. This is a guy in his 20s.

[B]

I'd say 90% of guys have no idea what's going on.

[A]

And the amount of times I've heard that a guy didn't know that women do not urinate out their vagina. Not what happens. I thought it was just one main. One main hole that just handled everything right.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot of confusion with guys on that.

[C]

Hey, there was confusion for me about the male anatomy when I was a kid. I thought our testicles held our urine.

[A]

Yeah, that's the. That's the urine sack.

[C]

Oh, man, I remember. I don't know if you took this course, George. In college. I took Psychology of Women. That was a course offered at North Texas.

[B]

No, I've been taking it for the last 40 years. No, I have not. I did not take that class.

[C]

So while I didn't get any real kind of sex education as a kid, I did. Did try to figure out their minds when I was in college, but it's very difficult. I don't remember much from that course, but it was out there. But was there a course for women Psychology of Men?

[A]

I don't remember that.

[B]

I don't either.

[C]

I don't think that.

[A]

I don't know why we can't do that. Like, to me, it makes no sense. Why can't we have female and male studies? If these are important gender differences that we've had, even if they're social constructs, can we study the social constructs it seems like it would be interesting and informative for us to do such.

[C]

I will say this, though. Out of all of my years dating, and I think I have a more extensive dating history than you guys, I learned one thing, and that is that the women who were all about drama are the women that I probably should have run from. And the women who are pretty normal and can have normal conversations and don't blow little things into big things are the women you want to be with. I know everybody's different, probably guys that love the drama queens, but there's something about the woman that wants to make something big out of all the little things that's exhausting. And my advice to any young guys listening is just find somebody normal. Find a normal human being that doesn't want drama. 24 7.

[B]

Yeah. I always told my boys, just find somebody who the wording of it is awkward, but that you're comfortable around, that all of a sudden. You don't have to try to be something you're not or you're trying to impress them, but it's just very natural. And maybe that, to your point earlier, Gordo, about being friends first, I don't think you have to be that. That's a requirement. But I think it can be a good way to get to know someone in a real way. You're just friends you're not worried about, are they attracted to me or are they going to think I'm cute or whatever. It's someone that you think, wow, okay, they're really a sharp person. You picked up on that at a young age. That took me a while. And that's what attracted me to the woman I've eventually married was from the first time we went out on the date or the first time we were together, just us, I just felt. It just felt very natural and like, this is a friend. But I'm also very attracted to her as well. And it was just something I'd never felt before. I always felt before like I was putting on some sort of presentation, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I didn't feel that way with her.

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I wonder if there's a study on the percentages of relationships that work or fail based on if you started out as friends first or versus the dating. Because the dating does set you up to put on a different face than it would if you just hang out and you're just each other for a while before you even even consider or even think about being in a relationship with that person.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That you're not Going on a job interview.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Whereas dates could feel that way. Right. Because you're wanting to make sure you put on the best impression and so you kind of omit the negative parts of your life.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I bet these days, with so many people using dating apps, I bet being friends first is almost non existent.

[A]

Yeah. Dating apps. A whole nother conversation as to what that's done to the romantic world and hookup cultures and dating apps. And has that been good for everyone or has it been an ultimate. A net bad or a net good? It's a very debatable topic. But yeah, the last thing I'll end with is one of the things that took me the longest to understand and I never picked up on it. Most of the things that I learned, I learned through experience. This one was actually told to me once, which was that a lot of times when women are talking about a problem that they're not looking for a solution. And that short circuited me. Like I. That does not come very naturally to me. And I don't understand being in the problem for any. A second longer than you have to be. But women oftentimes will want to talk about a problem for a while and that helps them figure out what they think about it and it helps them process the way they feel about it. Whereas guys are constantly looking for, okay, what's the solution to the problem? That's what I want to get to as soon as possible, you know, so I'm very. The conflicts that happen between men and women over that. When she's saying, you know, just listen. And he's saying, but I don't understand why you don't. If, if you're, if you're, if you have so many problems with going to this party tonight because so and so is going to be there. And you told me about this person and your problem with that person and this other person is going to possibly be there too, and you have a problem with this person, everything, and you don't even really want to go tonight. And everything you've told me all those things. It's like there's a glaring neon sign that's blinking to me what the answer is, which is don't go to the fucking party.

[C]

Right? They don't want that. They don't want that answer.

[A]

Right. But could you just listen? And back to my central point of all of this, which is that give each other grace. And she's not right in that scenario, and he's not right in that scenario. They both have needs in that conversation and realize that it's not that he's just not listening, it's that you have to understand his brain works different. And it's not just that she's prattling on about a bunch of unnecessary stuff. It's that this is her. The way she's processing a problem that she's facing that is causing her emotional suffering right now. So you need to have patience and listen to it. And she needs to have patience to understand that it's hard for him to listen to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because he's wanting to make this discomfort that you're experiencing. He loves you and doesn't want you to be in this and he wants to find the solution to the issue.

[B]

So guys, patience and listen. And for women on the other side, bullet pointed list and let's get to a solution. Fair.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But yeah, I think it's a little bit. Lean towards your side.

[B]

Yeah, sure. No, but yes. With the emphasis on we do need to listen. We. We. I know I can certainly be better at that.

[A]

Yes. And there's exception to all these rules. There's.

[C]

Guys.

[A]

Sure. More. What we've been saying are women coded in this and there's women who are much more male coded in these ways. We're just using those terms anyway. So thanks to Peter Welton for producing this. Thanks to you guys for being here. I appreciate you being my special guest today, guys.

[C]

Oh yeah, you bet.

[A]

You guys figured it out.

[B]

We figured it out.

[A]

I love it. Listen to the Musers, the podcast. The entire back catalog is available to you. We've been shocked at how much people have gone back and listened to our old episodes. Even to this day, there's still people listening to our first 10 episodes, whether they're discovering them or re listening to them. And we love it. We love all the P1s. And if you have P1s, I call them P1s podcast ones, I guess.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Listeners of the podcast, if you have a a comment or want to be featured in the letter of the week, you can email [e-mail] well done, Gordon.

[B]

Good information.

[A]

Thanks for listening everybody. And don't forget next week the guys come to you from San Francisco and the Super Bowl. The Musers. The podcast is a tired head production.

[B]

Foreign.

[C]

Fleet.

[A]

Host of the number one podcast insight with Chris VanVleet.

[C]

On the show I sit down with the biggest names in pro wrestling, sports, film and beyond. These are real long form conversations that go behind the scenes and beyond the headlines with people like John Cena, the Undertaker, Cody Rhodes and more we talk mindset, motivation and what it takes to succeed. This is Insight with Chris Family.

[A]

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