Are Goats Inherently Into Hypotheticals? - Episode 32

Summary

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The Musers The Podcast - Episode 32

“Are Goats Inherently Into Hypotheticals?”
February 18, 2026
Hosts: Gordon Keith, George Dunham, Craig “Junior” Miller (Cumulus Podcast Network)

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Overview

In this hilariously contemplative episode, The Musers—Gordon, George, and Craig—celebrate surpassing 1 million downloads as they tackle deep ethical dilemmas, the nature of human morality, and the infamous “goat hypothetical.” With their signature blend of absurdity, raw honesty, and classic banter, they explore whether people are inherently good or bad, why society values rules and rituals, and how we justify our moral choices (or lack thereof). Interlaced with memorable stories, personal confessions, and their usual knack for going off-the-rails, this episode captures why The Musers have entertained generations.

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Episode Highlights & Key Discussion Points

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1. Celebrating 1 Million Downloads

• [01:13] The guys open by reveling in their podcast’s milestone—over 1 million downloads since launching in June 2025.
  • Gordon: “Can you believe that?” [01:13]
  • Craig: “That feels like a pretty quick trip to a million.” [01:32]
  • George: “I remember being happy when we reached a thousand, so it’s fine with me.” [01:48]

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2. Mark Cuban’s Name Change Offer & the Value of a Name

• [02:05] Gordon recounts being offered $125,000 by Mark Cuban to legally change his name to “Dallas Maverick” for a year—half to charity, half to him.
• His father, a Baptist minister, strongly objected:
  • Gordon: “A name is sacred, and you shouldn’t…” [05:00]
• Despite the tempting money, Gordon never went through with it and keeps the uncashed check as a bookmark.
• The philosophical/conceptual value of a “name” versus material gain is explored.

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3. Ethics, Death, and Responsibility

• [08:03] The crew recaps how listener letters spun off last week’s episode about death—shifting to a debate about posthumous responsibilities (cremation, burial, and “feeding the earth”).
  • Discussing whether cremation denies nature:
    • Craig: “We get mad at people that put certain things in a landfill instead of just nourishing the earth from dust to dust.” [09:03]
    • Gordon: “Dust to dust. And we’ve been fed from the earth and now it’s our time to feed the earth.” [09:13]
• Morbid humor: burial by catapult, basketball cemetery games.

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4. Are Humans Inherently Good, Bad, or Just Neutral?

• [14:27] The episode’s central segment: Why do terminally ill people commit more crimes? Does a death sentence lift the “veneer” off human morality, revealing us as selfish or evil at core?
• Statistical reference: crime rises 14% (38% non-financial) post-terminal diagnosis.
• The Great Morality Debate:
  • George (Optimist):
    • “I’d like to think… most of us are good.” [16:14]
  • Gordon (Skeptic/Pessimist):
    • “I don’t think people are inherently good…we’re selfish creatures.” [17:33]
    • “Morality is not some absolute inherent compass…it’s a calculation we all make.” [19:26]
    • Example: the Cumulus Cafe “honor system” only actually works when cameras are present [19:01].
  • Craig (the “Neutral Theory”):
    • “I think we’re basically a neutral species…But I think once we evolved to sentient creatures, I think we just kind of have a natural neutral state.” [20:11]
    • “There are obviously examples of outliers who will always take the path more traveled. But … we try to take the easy path. And that’s not inherently good, that’s more inherently sorry.” [21:47]

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5. The Subjectivity of “Good” and “Bad”

• [22:27] “Good” and “bad” depend on cultural, social, and sometimes highly personal frames.
  • Gordon: “…what’s good in one culture is the absolute worst thing in another culture.” [17:33]
  • Personal inventory—everyone’s “good” or “bad” status depends on the observer.
    • George: “If you ask my family, I’d like to think they say, ‘yeah, he’s a great guy.’ There are people walking this earth who think I’m the worst.” [23:03]

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6. Why Societies Need Rules & Religions

• [24:28] The guys discuss the historical function of law, religion, police—how rules deter “badness.”
  • Craig: “A lot of religions were put in place, were created to scare you into doing good.” [24:59]
• The role of societal peer pressure and groupthink in shaping individual morality.

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7. Rationalization & Everyday Ethics

• [29:41] Gordon tells a story about his mom returning to a grocery store after being undercharged—a rare model of honesty.
• Confessions ensue: Sometimes they return the extra change, sometimes they rationalize (“it’ll all even out”).
  • Craig: “I play the even out game. It’s a lot easier. You don’t have to get back in the car.” [31:35]
• Gordon: “We just find ourselves doing what every moral agent on this earth has done, which is you find the loopholes and excuses to why you are not morally responsible for doing this, or even if what you did was bad, it wasn’t that bad.” [30:47]
• George: “We have no problem driving back up to that store when you got overcharged, right?” [30:53]

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8. Should Ethics Be Taught in School?

• [32:01] George proposes ethics as a school curriculum requirement for critical thinking and moral development.

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9. Classic Ethical Dilemmas & Hypotheticals

• Sophie's Choice
  • [32:48] Would you choose which of your children survives in a Nazi scenario?
  • Craig: “You love your kids equally…I probably would have said, take the girl.” [33:43]
  • George, as a father, refuses the hypothetical: “I don’t trust what they’re saying anyway…I’m not going to let you make that choice for me.” [34:15]
• Trolley Problem [38:14]
  • Save one person you love or six strangers? Is utilitarian “math” morality real in personal terms?
  • Craig: “Most people would save the one person…and that’s probably not the right decision.” [38:57]
• Would You Rather… Crimes & Perception [41:06]
  • Commit a terrible crime but no one knows, and you live a wonderful, loved, wealthy life OR be accused and hated for a crime you never committed, losing all social/familial ties?
    • Craig: “I’ll take the former. I’ll live the kick ass life.” [42:22]
    • George (reluctantly): “I would take the life of misery…that’s the right thing to do.” [42:56]

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10. Absurd Hypotheticals: Goat Edition

• [44:02] Recurring “goat” hypothetical: Would you rather have sex with a goat and no one knows, or not do it—while everyone thinks you did?
• Craig wants to monetize his new “goat guy” persona rather than actually do the deed:
  • Craig: “I’d have my own private plane…people would want—I’d be on all the talk shows.” [44:39]
  • Gordon: “Why do you have to talk to it?” [44:56]
  • Craig: “You gotta kind of create a little romantic environment.” [44:59]
  • Gordon: “I don’t know that part of the hypothetical is that you get to be famous for the goat.” [46:18]
• George objects to the absurdity, admits discomfort with hypotheticals in general:
  • George: “I am really not a hypothetical fan. I’m really not.” [45:33]
• Gordon, as ever, refuses to answer his own hypotheticals, leading to much mock outrage.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Society's Morality:
  • Gordon: “Morality is not some absolute inherent compass that we all have. It’s a calculation we all make.” [19:26]
• On Justifying Choices:
  • Gordon: “We just backfill reasons…when most of the time, I think most people act on their gut and then come up with reasons later.” [31:19]
• On Mixed Bags:
  • George: “We just get way too caught up in good person, bad person…that’s what we all are. We’re mixtures.” [22:50]
• On the Goat Hypothetical:
  • Craig: “I’d be goat guy. Because that would mean that I didn’t actually have to do it, because I don’t think I could say, ‘Come here, little goat, turn around.’” [44:35]
  • Gordon (mocking): “Why do you have to talk to it? Well, I mean, it’s weird.” [44:56]
• On George's Hypothetical Aversion:
  • George: “Goat or no goat? No, I don’t want to waste my time.” [45:39]
  • Craig: “He only loves asking. He doesn’t love thinking about it.” [48:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Milestone & Intros: 01:13 – 02:05
• Mark Cuban/Name Change Story: 02:49 – 07:49
• Burial, Death, and Obligation to Earth: 08:03 – 11:28
• Celebrating or Roasting the Dead: 11:47 – 12:09
• Main Topic: Human Morality (Good/Bad/Neutral): 14:27 – 29:41
• Societal Controls (Laws, Religion): 24:28 – 26:10
• Rationalizations & Honesty Stories: 29:41 – 32:00
• The Trolley Problem & Hypotheticals: 32:48 – 40:22
• Would You Rather (Crime & Perception): 41:06 – 43:29
• Goat Hypotheticals & Podcast Banter: 44:02 – 48:49
• Outro and Meta Moments: 49:29 – 50:20

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Final Thoughts & Episode Feel

As always, this Musers episode is a blend of genuine ethical exploration and offbeat hilarity, with sidebars into personal philosophy, family stories, and classic radio chemistry. They challenge each other (and themselves) to answer the impossible—sometimes head-on, sometimes with irreverence.

Whether parsing the nature of good and evil, mocking each other for hypothetical cowardice, or inventing “goat influencer” careers, The Musers remind us why their decades-long dynamic continues to resonate. Not everything is answered, but everything is fair game for laughter and honest reflection.

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Recommended for:

• Lifelong Musers/Ticket fans
• Listeners who enjoy philosophical debates with a strong dose of absurd humor
• Anyone who wants to contemplate the big questions… and laugh about goats

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

And room service to feel like.

[A]

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[C]

Would you like fresh towels?

[A]

It matters where you stay.

[B]

Book [e-mail] Hilton for this day.

[A]

You'd be the sex with a goat guy.

[C]

Come here, little goat. Turn around.

[A]

Why do you have to talk to it? Well, I mean, that's weird. It's the Musers, the podcast in episode 32. Are goats inherently into hypotheticals? Hello there and welcome to the Musers the podcast. Three friends who have just been. We grew up in the same womb, and then we went on to go to school together all the way through elementary and middle school and high school. Then we went to college together. And then we started a radio show together. Then we did a podcast together. You are in for a treat. I'm Gordon Keith.

[B]

I'm George Dunham.

[C]

I'm Craig Miller.

[A]

And this is episode 32. And this is a very special episode because we received word recently that we are now over 1 million downloads. Can you believe that?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In three weeks.

[C]

Not three weeks, but we did only start this back in June of 2025, so I don't know how it all works. That feels like a pretty quick trip to a million.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm happy with it.

[B]

I'm very happy with it. Yeah, it's great.

[A]

Heck, I remember being happy when we reached a thousand, so it's fine with me. I'll take the million. So thank you to you, dear listener, the person who's listening to us right now has helped contribute to that.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's amazing.

[C]

Spread the word about the music podcast. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And go back and listen to all the old ones that you missed. If you missed any, check them out, because we've had a lot of fun talking about a lot of different topics, a lot of very important topics. And last week's was probably one of the most important topics, because outside of life, death is the most important topic because death is what gives life its meaning. Well, we had a lot of response on that episode and a lot of potential letters of the week. And before I get to that letter of the week, I want to give a special award to the most annoying piece of email that I got this past week.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's unrelated to that last episode, but you'll see why this was annoying. Comes to us from a listener named Justin. He says that he was reading his devotional. He gets Like a little online devotional each morning. And in it, the pastor detailed the story about Mark Cuban's attempt at paying a radio host to change his name to Dallas Maverick. And he sent a copy that went out to. This whole congregation is reading about this story of Mark Cuban doing this. Now, for those who are listening to the podcast who aren't aware I was that guy. I was the radio host that Mark Cuban offered. I think it was $250,000. It was either 125 or $250,000. I think it was 125. Half of it would go to me, and then half of it would go to a charity of my choosing if I would change my name for one year, officially, legally, to Dallas Maverick. So that meant every time that I was mentioned on the radio, we'd go by Dallas Maverick. And if I happen to have a child during that time, the father's name would be listed as Dallas Maverick.

[B]

I thought at the time you were crazy for turning it down. Looking back at it, I think you made the right call. Really? Yeah. Just knowing you even better now than I did, then the paperwork itself would have driven you insane.

[A]

Having to change my name with everyone.

[B]

Yeah, follow. Would you have followed through with all the paperwork?

[A]

No, probably not. Because I don't think that, like, you're paying bills and stuff, you don't have to call up the utility company and change it. They just want to check each month. If it's already in one name, that's fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But the paperwork for changing the name, I didn't even investigate how long that took to actually change a name. I'm assuming it wouldn't have been that difficult. But, you know, that was in a time in my life where, you know, if it was 62 and a half thousand dollars, that was a lot.

[C]

It was life changing.

[A]

Definitely more than I was making a year. Probably more than I was making every two or three years at that point. And I turned it down. It was one of the only things that my dad ever approached me on and had a strong opinion of, of something I've done on the air. And my dad was a Baptist minister, so. And I do a lot of racy stuff on the air, and he never said anything negative about anything I'd ever done. And then when that came up, I remember going over to my parents house and him going, son, I want to talk to you about this name thing. A name is sacred, and you shouldn't. And he, like, had this really strong reaction to it.

[B]

I remember you saying that that a Name is important. But I didn't know your dad offered that to you.

[A]

It was the strangest thing.

[C]

I remember that story. I remember you telling that it was kind of your dad that made the.

[A]

Decision for you, and he had. My dad never quoted scripture to me, ever. He was not that kind of pastor. He was. He was much more live and let live, you know, you'll find the Lord in your own way. Whatever version of the Lord you find. That's great.

[B]

Plus, you flooded the zone so much, he would have had to roll out a lot of scriptures.

[A]

He had to choose his battles. But I remember he did come up with some. There was some scripture about name, about the name being important. And anyway, he was talking on a philosophical level. I didn't even understand at the time, but I just remember having something about it didn't feel right to me either. And so I never ended up changing my name. And to this day, I still have the check from Mark Cuban that was post dated for one year later than when he. When he offered that to me, that if my name was, you know, Dallas Maverick, it said, I must present two forms of legal ID to cash this check. And it was for whatever the amount was. 62 and a half thousand or 125, whichever one it was. I can't remember now.

[C]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

It's a bookmark in one of my books in my library, and I can't find which book right now. I found it a few years ago.

[B]

But do you think we could change it to Musers, the podcast, and put that thing.

[A]

That would be great. Yeah. But the. The letter from the P1 continues. In the daily devotional from the pastor, it reads like this. The owner of the NBA's Dallas Mavericks offered a Chicago sports talk host, Chicago, $100,000 to legally change his name to Dallas Maverick. In addition, he said that he would donate $100,000 to the man's favorite charity. After some soul searching, the radio host held firm and told the owner, no. He explained, I'd be saying, I do anything for money, and that bothers me. My name is my birthright. I'd like to preserve my integrity and credibility. And then it goes on with a little Bible lesson. Okay, so the details are not right here.

[C]

So you cheated a charity out of 100 grand.

[A]

Well, I think that will also lead into today's conversation, which is doing the wrong thing for something that could cause a lot of good.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And we're going to be wading into ethics a little bit today. And matter of fact, we're going to do that. I'm going to skip these. This other letter. There were some other great letters about death and about what to do after you die, and one of them, just a broad stroke from Jost, talked about how he wants to be cremated like we determined on that last episode. But he says that he thinks that that may be a moral wrong.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Because really and truly, since you've spent your whole time on this earth consuming the dead bodies of plants and animals and this earth has nourished you out of our vanity, we don't want to feed the earth again because it's just cleaner to be cremated when truthfully, we shouldn't be embalmed. We should be put in the ground in a pine box or whatever. That would decompose cardboard. Yes. And then feed the earth. Once again.

[C]

That's an interesting take. I never thought of it that way, but yeah, we get mad at people that put certain things in a landfill instead of just nourishing the earth from dust to dust.

[A]

Yeah, dust to dust. And we've been fed from the earth and now it's our time to feed the earth.

[B]

Interesting theory.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

We shouldn't be thrown in a landfill, though, should we?

[A]

Well, no, we shouldn't be thrown in a landfill.

[C]

We should just shallow buried with no coffin, not even a cardboard coffin. Just put in the earth and let the worms get after.

[A]

I wonder if you can do that. I don't think you can do that.

[C]

Probably not, but we'd have to change the law.

[A]

But I think that even if you were buried in just a wooden box, the wooden box also decomposes too. It's organic material as well. And there are certain religious traditions that. That's what you do. There's no embalming. You're buried within three days and you go into the earth and you return to the earth the way we were designed to do.

[C]

Certain religions won't allow cremation.

[B]

How about they dig the hole and then this could be. It could kind of lift the spirits of everyone. You have a small catapult and people get to try to launch your body into the hole. And maybe they win a prize if they're the ones who aim it just right and calibrate it just right to where your body lands in the hole that's been dug.

[A]

But you've got to reload the catapult after each.

[B]

Yeah. If someone misses, someone has to carry you back over. Okay, Aunt Susie, you give it a try.

[A]

It's going to be really disturbing.

[C]

Is there a three point line.

[A]

As your eyeballs are hanging out by their optic neck nerves.

[B]

Maybe you can shoot from way downtown.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like a half court heave basketball court paintings around the cemetery.

[C]

Just.

[B]

Just to make it. I'm trying to make it fun.

[A]

There's a lot of people who are suffering. Right. All right.

[C]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Bad idea.

[A]

And yes. And we commented on planning. How much planning should you do? Pre planning and everything. And P1 shared a nice letter about how his mom had written letters to all of her kids.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

And was addressing them saying I know this must be a difficult time. Here are some ideas. And they. He said it was great because it took that weight off of them of making these decisions that they could be arguing about because the mother had expressed. Hey, if you. This is what I would like. If you guys want to change it, you can. But this. Otherwise, all things being equal, this is what I'd prefer.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

Yeah. And he said it was like a final gift that she gave them by.

[B]

I'm gonna start writing some letters later today.

[A]

Guidance. Oh, I've already written my two letters to you guys after I die. And I mean it goes on for. There's a lot of ranting in that. Oh man, I'm settling a lot of scores.

[B]

And another thing.

[A]

Have you ever known someone that that's happened to? Like they found a rant from someone. I've seen a few of those obituaries published in the paper where the family was. Was no fan of the person that died.

[B]

Yeah, I've seen those.

[A]

He was a miserable son of a. In life and good riddance. And they take the time to pay for this to be published.

[B]

They want to set the record straight.

[A]

I guess getting a few more shots in his ass before he's buried. Anyway, that's crazy.

[C]

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[B]

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[A]

We had a discussion on our radio program in Dallas Fort Worth recently, and it sparked this idea and we said we've got to talk about this long form on the podcast, and it was a story about how they've studied people who are facing a terminal diagnosis, cancer, something like that, and how many of those people began to commit crimes. This is the Walter White Breaking Bad scenario, where in that show he gets the terminal cancer diagnosis and he decides he's going to start selling meth and builds a meth empire to make millions and millions of dollars. Well, he does it in the show for financial reasons, for his family. Ostensibly. You know, he wants to take care of his family after he's gone. But the research showed that if you omit the financial crimes, I think the financial crimes it was that overall crime goes up 14% after a terminal diagnosis, and if you omit the financial crimes, it goes up 38%. So it's not the financial incentive of why people are doing bad things. So it sparked the conversation among us. Are humans basically inherently sorry? And once you remove the veneer of polite society, we will go feral and start acting in incredibly selfish and what some would call evil ways. Or are we like Anne Frank once said that? She said, in spite of everything, I still believe that people are inherently good. I'm paraphrasing because I don't speak whatever. She spoke Dutch.

[B]

I'd like to think, as we said on our show, that most of us are good. You can make an argument for the other side really easily. But just to have a decent state of mind about day to day, I have to feel that way. And I think when you say it, people go, okay, well, I guess he really doesn't understand the world that we live in, because what do we hear about? We hear about the bad. Whether it's if you're reading something online or you're watching the news, you hear about the negative side, the bad side, because we're told good stories don't sell really, anyway. So I think it stands out if you say no. I think most, that we are good. But I guess if you're trying to be accurate, we're all probably a mixture. And there's good and bad in everyone. And maybe I should rephrase it that I think the good comes to the surface more than the bad.

[A]

How about that? Yeah, I don't know about that.

[B]

Not 100%, everybody, all the time. But.

[A]

But we're talking about overall, you think that mostly wins out.

[B]

Yes. I'd like to think that that could be Pollyanna. It could be ridiculous, but that's the way I operate, I guess. I'm an optimistic person.

[A]

I think it is Pollyanna, and I think it is ridiculous. And I think it is preferable to believe that way, because I'm with you. It's probably a little bit more pessimistic and negative on it. I don't think people are inherently good. I think that that good, that's breakthrough cases of our goodness. I think that we are good only to the extent of our choices and our options overall. But I want to think we're good. I don't think we're actually good. I think we're selfish creatures. And even as I dig into the topic, it's like, good and bad is also a highly subjective thing. And what's good in one culture is the absolute worst thing in another culture. And so it doesn't even make any sense to talk about good and bad in that sense. But think about how human beings work, Giorgio. Here up at work, we have something called the Cumulus Cafe, and they switch to a system in which you could just take whatever and then it's up. The honor system of you check out and you pay for it. How much do you think gets stolen from there?

[B]

I don't think very much.

[A]

Okay, that's probably. Probably true.

[B]

I thought we got confirmation on that because it Seems like if one thing goes missing, we have a lockdown around here.

[C]

I think in the beginning a lot got stolen. And then they have that camera in there.

[A]

And that's what I wanted to get to. Oh, that's the issue.

[C]

And then it stopped.

[A]

And they've done psychological experiments that show that if there is a camera in front of the setup, free bowl of. Or the bowl of candy, that you're only supposed to take two or whatever it is, if there is the implied watcher, that greatly affects the morality of the person.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So morality is not some absolute inherent compass that we all have. It's a calculation we all make.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And most of the time when we do good things and this is going to be real defeating, but it's out of self interest. You do something good for someone because it also gives you a certain charge of feeling good about yourself. And it is kind of a response to this idea of acting good in the collective also benefits you. Right. Because you want to live in a society in which people do good things. And therefore you do good things because of your own self interest. Ultimately, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do the good things, but that is probably the underlying motivation.

[C]

I think I came to the conclusion because initially when this came up on our radio show, I thought we are inherently good but prone to doing bad things. But the more I thought about it, knowing we were going to do this for a podcast topic I think I've settled on we are inherently neutral. And whatever our environment is or our surroundings or our laws or our peer pressure or our group think we are pushed to doing good or bad things. But I think we're basically a neutral species other than when it comes to survival, going way, way back before we could do much reasoning or had social structure, I think we were probably more bad than good when it just came to survival. And you will kill that thing that's trying to get that piece of food or that's threatening you. And a lot of that still exists today, by the way. But I think once we evolved to somewhat sentient creatures, I think we just kind of have a natural neutral state. And it depends on what kind of environment you get in. I think you can fall into an environment where it promotes more good, and I think you can fall into an environment where it promotes more bad. I do lean towards that neutrality shifting a little towards bad more than it does good. And it's only our laws or our peer pressure or our groupthink that gets us to come back to the good side. Because what do we always say human beings are shortcutters? We shortcut everything. There are obviously examples of outliers who will always take the path more traveled. But we really try to. And especially when people aren't looking, we try to take the easy path. And that's not inherently good, that's more inherently sorry. Because a lot of times the easy path is hurting somebody else.

[B]

Yeah. And the whole good, bad thing, I think you're exactly right on, Gordo. Is that.

[A]

Thank you, thank you.

[B]

And we've done that in our radio show through the years. Oh, yeah, he's a bad guy, whoever it is. A public figure who's done certain things, but there's. I bet he's done a lot of good things too. And then we find out maybe he has done good things or she has done good things.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

They really are a mixed bag. And it's.

[A]

So we don't like mixed bags.

[B]

We don't like mixed bags.

[A]

We like declaring someone man, just a great guy.

[B]

But that's what we all are. We're mixtures. I mean, what kind of guy am I? I don't know. It depends on who you ask. If you ask my family and my closest friends, I would like to think to say, yeah, he's a great guy. There are people walking this earth who think I'm the worst.

[C]

I'm sure all of us have that. Yeah.

[A]

Right now, probably so.

[B]

And as I take inventory of my own life, I'm thinking, gee, wow, if I do have to go before some sort of judgment, maybe pretty close.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe a coin toss there.

[B]

Maybe a coin toss. I don't know if you go by the letter of the law. So, yeah, I think we just get way too caught up in good person, bad person, good person. And until we start seeing the good and someone who feels differently than us or maybe does something that we just can't square and I'm not talking about murder, I'm just talking about in everyday life. Maybe that's the thing is what I'm doing confusing with it is I try to see the good in people. And if you operate like that, maybe you're naive and you're going to get it a two by four right upside the head because you, you're not pessimistic enough. I don't know.

[A]

So you're going to try to find the good in Hitler or Epstein.

[B]

Like I said, murderers and, you know, those who, you know, solve people. Yeah.

[A]

I think Norm MacDonald had a whole bit about how Hitler's dog thought he's pretty good. See, depends on who. He has always been nice to me.

[C]

Needs me every day.

[A]

Yeah. I guess it's a matter of perspective or something.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

You know, something we've had for a long time that would indicate that we are inherently bad is the longtime need for laws, religion, police, governments, whatever it happens to be that tries to put guardrails on us. Because if not, well, we're going to break. We're going to go rob this person. We're going to do. Not all of us, but, you know, a lot of people will do that. I think a lot of religions were put in place, were created in order to scare you into doing good.

[A]

Yeah. Impose a little order on this and make sure that people are. We want to incentivize doing good and disincentivize doing bad.

[C]

Yeah. We have a vengeful God who, if you do bad, he's going to strike. Strike you dead and you're going to live in hell for all of eternity. And you have to put that in place because in society at the time when these various religions are created, you have so many people that are doing so many bad things. Well, how are we going to control this? We'll scare the hell out of them. We'll scare them straight. Like the program we had when we were kids and convicts would come to the school when you're in sixth grade and talk to you about, hey, don't turn to a life of crime because this is how bad prison is.

[A]

Yeah, that didn't work on me. I always thought, man, that's pretty cool. You get to go to schools and talk to people.

[B]

It did look on me. I was so scared to death of some sort of illegal drug that totally. Because I just equate my simple brain thought, if I give one inch to that, I'm gonna wind up in prison.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

That's how I squared it away in, I think, ninth grade when we did that.

[A]

But prison looks kick ass. You get all those tattoos and stuff.

[B]

No, it doesn't either.

[A]

Yeah, I got really scared, you know, that's. I was talking with someone recently about this, the idea of drugs and that the 80s had all those be scared of drugs things. And somehow that worked on me. How did that work on me? None of their propaganda would work on me. That did. Because I thought that, yeah, you do do one drug and the next thing you're jumping off the school building thinking you can fly. I thought that was everything.

[B]

That was the other part. You're gonna die or you're gonna go to prison. Those were the two choices. Yeah.

[A]

So when it comes to doing good, and we don't really have an innate moral compass, I know religious people like to think that we have our sense of right and wrong from God, but doesn't a lot of that come from just practicality? It comes from the idea of what is good for the group. And it's good to not kill each other because you don't want to be killed. And if we go around killing each other, then we're not going to have much of a successful group. And that is what made humans the most dominant species on the planet. It wasn't even our intelligence, it was our cooperation. And you see the power of cooperation and just the fact that driving up here today, I'm looking around going, we did all this because we cooperated with each other. I'm driving on a highway right now with these high rise buildings on either side of me because human beings cooperate and we all do things for like this common good, towards a common goal. By the same token, the worst things in humanity have been done because of human cooperation too. The Nazis, any sort of regime that has a nation. And when you look at those people that were doing bad things, they all thought they were doing good things. They perverted their own sense of justice or what was good into. Well, it's important to get rid of people who are not like us because we love us so much. It was like a sense of family. There's others and then there's you. Yeah, but you wrap things up in a principle of, well, think about our own grandfathers, or in your case, George, your father goes to war for noble reasons. We want to believe in our noble cause, but yet my grandfather is having to gun down a guy outside a German farm who's just sitting there. He's a scared 19 year old just like he is that was told noble cause in his end. You defend your country when there's invaders coming in here. And who knows if he believed any of the ideology that was behind the madman at the top of the pyramid.

[B]

That's why they came back. We talk about soldiers from Vietnam, but man, there's a lot of soldiers who came back from World War II and they were never the same. They were celebrated as heroes, but they had to do that very thing you were talking about and went through some terrible things that stayed with them and haunted them for the rest of their lives. But yeah, for the noble cause they were willing to do it.

[C]

But not all causes are noble. They may have been fighting for what they thought was A noble cause. But the rest of the world thought that was a noble cause.

[A]

That's the point. Is that your noble cause that you've wrapped it up in may not be so noble. So it's including our sides on wars. You know, we always think, oh, America's always right and everything, but yet what we always do is we. We just change the definition of good long enough to do bad things.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

How many times have people that are. Did I tell that story about my mom in the grocery store recently?

[C]

You did on the show.

[A]

Anyway, it was the story that was told me recently about my mother, about how remembered my mother going to the grocery store because she noticed that she wasn't charged for one of the items that was in her. They forgot to ring up one of the items, and my mom drove back up to the grocery store to go pay for the item. And the person who told me the story was like, I would have never thought of that. That was. Those things were celebrated as victories in my home. When you got some for free, sure. Now, that was my mom. I've done it several times where I thought of her example and then gone back and made good on something. But there's been just as many times where I'm like, I'm tired. And you know what? It was that person's job to ring me up. And, you know, that corporation has so much money already, and you just find yourself doing what every moral agent on this earth has done, which is you find the loopholes and excuses to why you are not morally responsible for doing this, or even if what you did was bad, it wasn't that bad.

[B]

Right. But we have no problem driving back up to that grocery store and saying, you charged me.

[A]

You charged me for something.

[B]

You did not give me coupon credit for this. It's supposed to be buy three, get one free.

[A]

And when I listen to the absolute bullshit that human beings put out and claim that these are their reasons for doing something rather than their rationalization from what they did. We just backfill reasons as if, you know, we're moral creatures. When most of the time, I think most people act on their gut and then come up with reasons later.

[C]

No doubt.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

On that front, I'm a lot like I am with officiating in the NBA. I think it all evens out. If I get home and I realize I was overcharged 10 bucks, I probably don't go back because I know at some point I was undercharged ten bucks.

[A]

Yeah, the old. At all even out.

[C]

I'm an all it all evens out, guy. And so there have been several times where or I've seen that I've been overcharged or I've been undercharged and I play the even out game. It's a lot easier. You don't have to get back in the car.

[A]

Which, yes.

[C]

Once you avoid the tension of talking to the store manager.

[A]

Right. You come up with something that justifies what you want to do anyway, which is nothing.

[C]

Right. Right.

[B]

Hey, I've said it before. I think we should. And I'm sure some school districts do this, but it ought to be a part of. Of curriculum of teaching ethics. Ethics.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

And I always think it's something maybe in college you take and it's an elective. But why couldn't that be a requirement? Wouldn't that be a good thing? Just for critical thinking of, yeah, maybe there's not always a clear answer of what is the right thing and the wrong thing. And just to get that discussion going and getting kids to think about, wow, there are ramifications for things I'm doing after school and just to get them to think about and how they treat other people. And maybe that's where it would become the most valuable of how we treat people. And what is the right way to treat someone?

[A]

All right, so moral situation. The famous Sophie's Choice. What do you make there? Sophie's standing on the train platform. The Nazis come up and say, hey, you got these two young kids here. You look kind of Aryan even though you're not. So we're going to give a little mercy to you and you can choose which one of your kids you want to live.

[C]

And one was a boy, one was.

[A]

A girl, one was a boy, one was a girl.

[C]

I think I would have made. And I think she made the same decision I would have made the most practical because you're never going to win the. Who do you love more? You love your kids equally and all of that. You probably at that point in the 1940s are thinking, a man has a better chance in this world than a woman. I think the boy was older. He's lived more of his life. He's got more of a head start. I probably would have said, take the girl.

[A]

And that's what Sophie did.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But she had to choose. I know. And it's just impossible. And I used to tell you that don't make a father of three play that hypothetical. You can't do it. I couldn't do it. And I think my answer back then, and I still. I don't Know if this is what I would do is, well, I don't trust what they're saying anyway. I'm going to. Let's try to take one of them out on my. We're all three probably going to die. I'm not going to let you make that choice for me.

[A]

So you would rather.

[B]

Because I'm really not letting them make any sort of choice.

[A]

So you would rather all three of you die?

[B]

No, my scenario is I can take that dude, and somehow we get away.

[C]

We let other people out.

[A]

You're changing it.

[B]

And we all get away.

[A]

You're changing it.

[C]

You know what? There is, there is a win if you say all three of us die. Because then there's not a survivor or two living with that guilt.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And you may. Like, I've heard that, you know, family. A family of four dies in a plane crash. And I've heard and I've even thought this. Well, at least they all died together. And there's not. The kid didn't survive and has to live with the tragedy of losing his parents and sibling for the rest of his life.

[A]

But then that would justify a family annihilator who was going to kill his wife and then himself. But he doesn't want to leave these two children orphans so that he takes them out and we call him an extra monster.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I know.

[C]

One's accidental, one's a choice.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what else I thought when thinking about this topic? Are we inherently good or evil? If we are inherently evil, which a lot of people believe we're inherently bad, maybe there's even a difference between bad and evil. Evil sounds worse. But if we all are inherently bad. One thing that I think is difficult for people to come to that conclusion is I thought of my mother. My mother was inherently bad. She was a nun. The only really bad thing I ever saw her do was sneaking a cigarette on the side. Or my wife, who I think is the sweetest, kindest person in the world and she's just such a good person. Or I look at my daughter, who's 4, and there's nothing but joy and laughter, occasional tantrum where I guess I would say she's bad. But it's hard for us to come to the conclusion that people are inherently bad because you're including all the people that you love. And isn't that hard to say that your mom was bad?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But if we had the mind reader machine, this hypothetical. If you knew, if you could read everyone's mind for a day and you could also have access to the worst thing they've ever done in their life. How many of the people that you say are good in your life, if you're looking at their worst deed and their worst thoughts of that day or that week, would you still.

[C]

You were thinking that about Burt Reynolds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It would affect what you think of someone.

[B]

Sure. Yeah, it would. But again, now you get back to. Okay, what wins out? I think those thoughts, that's one thing. But you don't act on them. You don't. You may have that thought, but you don't, you know, you don't. You don't make it part of reality.

[A]

But Jesus said if you commit lust in your heart, adultery in your mind.

[C]

But maybe it's not just thoughts, maybe it's their worst act. And I think that could actually be really interesting. You still wouldn't want to see it. You don't want to see your mom or dad's worst act. But what if you did and your mom's worst act was stealing one piece of bubble gum as a kid?

[A]

You'd be so happy, you'd feel so great.

[C]

So I think.

[A]

And then your dad over.

[B]

Dad, dad, you did that with Burt Reynolds.

[C]

So I think there are degrees of. If we are all inherently good or bad. There are degrees of the bad things that people have done. Not everybody's worst thing is God awful.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Some people's worst thing is probably not all that bad.

[A]

I bet you most peoples would shock you. Like, I think you'd be surprised at how bad even the good people had. Have done something that was really, really bad.

[C]

Yeah, probably.

[B]

But they reasoned in their mind because of a series of events.

[A]

Well, okay, well, I'll just do this then.

[B]

And it's a terrible thing. Right. But there were 15 events that led.

[A]

Up to that that justified it in their mind.

[B]

In their mind. Okay. This is a reasonable act and was.

[A]

Somewhat exculpatory to them. Exculpatory. Yeah. And you know, that's also like the, the trolley problem, the classic, you know, ethical scenario of the trolley problem, of the trolley coming towards you, towards the track that has your loved one tied up there, whoever you love most in the world. Or you have the switch where you can divert the trolley over to this other area where six people are standing there and can't see the trolley and it's going to kill them. So who do you choose then? And you save the six people or do you save the one person that you love?

[C]

Most people would save the one person.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And that's probably not the right Decision.

[A]

Yeah, certainly not if you're a utilitarian, which is like, well, that's. You save the most people, you do the most good for the most people.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, those are really hard, man. I don't know. Let's go back to the whole good.

[A]

And bad thing and I love those scenarios, but they're. There are people that nuts, George, you're one of them. You don't like sitting around thinking about things that are impossible to answer.

[B]

No, they just. I don't.

[A]

It's. It's just self torture to consider those things.

[C]

I always think about the practicality of it and, and also you probably always think about it from a selfish standpoint. But I would save the person I love because I would know selfishly the rest of my life I would be in an awful mental state knowing that I sacrificed the person I love for six strangers.

[A]

You won't be in a bad state though, knowing that as you watch that trolley plow over, six people and their children are standing on the side of.

[C]

The tracks going, mom, yeah, it would be a bad state, but a less bad state than knowing I sent a loved one to death. Yeah, they'd both be bad. But again, I always look at it from a practical standpoint of how it's going to impact my life or our lives going forward. And that goes back to being selfish, which goes back to indicating I'm probably more inherently bad than good.

[B]

Couldn't just flip a coin, go to lunch. You can't.

[A]

That's not. George, that's not in the hypothetical.

[C]

You got to answer these. Mic drop. You ready? Let's do it.

[A]

Hosted by former Navy SEAL Mike Ridland. It's unfiltered, you know, you go to.

[B]

The sound of the gun, bam, you're gone.

[C]

It's weird. I mean, I've had so many near death experiences, it's raw. I love this country. I offered my life to serve this nation. Nation and protect its people.

[A]

The question, you know, what's the meaning of life? And to me it just boils down to one single word versus purpose.

[C]

Mic drop. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[A]

Speaking of your inherent morality and whether or not we actually have it that's inherent, or whether it's just merely a product of the eyes that are watching us and a product of our society. What about the hypothetical of would you rather commit a crime and no one knows that you did it, but it's a horrible act and afterwards you lead a kick ass life, you have a billion dollars that you can do a lot of Good with. Right. A lot of good with. And you have a loving family and everyone just thinks that you're the pillar of society and you're celebrated or you cannot do the crime, but everyone thinks you did. And you live a life of absolute suffering. You're in prison, your family turned away from you. They won't talk to you anymore. Everyone thinks that you are the love child of Epstein and Hitler.

[C]

But that's the morally right decision.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

You take the grief in exchange for doing the right thing.

[A]

You self sacrifice in order to not, I don't know, kill the hobo or whatever is in this hypothetical that you had to do. That's wrong. That gets you all these riches.

[C]

And again, showing that we are probably inherently bad. I'll take the former. I'll live the kick ass life.

[B]

Say billion. Yeah.

[A]

Billion with two L's.

[B]

Really kick ass life.

[A]

Which do you choose, George?

[B]

Well, I think you would like to think that you would say, I'll live.

[A]

But which do you choose?

[B]

Suffering.

[A]

But which do you choose?

[B]

But when you brought up billion and doing good things with that billion. Hey, I'm going to make up for. But the. The deed that you commit is.

[A]

Is something like something really bad.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

And you have to strangle them and look into their eyes.

[A]

Yeah, look into their eyes and gently kiss them as the life goes out of them.

[B]

I. I would take the life of misery. I would take the life.

[A]

There's no way you would.

[B]

That's what everybody. That's what I'm living now.

[A]

So. Absolutely.

[C]

With everyone thinking you did that.

[B]

Yes. That's the right thing to do. Then live with them.

[A]

I thought that this was a space of honesty.

[B]

I'm trying to be honest. And I think that would be better than okay, well, at least I won't have to choke out that kid or whatever I had to do. Whatever you had. That's. Whatever you had me doing. You said it was bad. I don't know what it was.

[C]

Let's at least make it an adult.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You wanted to make it a kid for some reason.

[C]

Either way.

[B]

Well, you said it was terrible. I'm just coming up with we're in a safe space.

[A]

Love that hypothetical. I like the other version of it. Which is you have to. What is it? You'll help me with this, Craig.

[B]

It was.

[A]

You have to make love to one of your parents and no one knows about it or you don't do it and everyone thinks you did it for the rest of your life. And that's the big public thing about you.

[C]

This came up on our white elephant show on our radio station.

[A]

So confused as to what you're talking about today.

[C]

We're all the hosts, mix and match.

[A]

On our radio station, and I'm just a podcast guy.

[C]

We had a segment on hypotheticals, and this came up, and it's. It's along those lines. Would you rather have sex with a goat and. And nobody knows about it, or would you rather everyone in the world thinks you had sex with a goat, but you really didn't? And I chose the latter because I figured I would just embrace it and monetize it.

[A]

You'd be the sex with a goat guy.

[C]

I'd be the sex with a goat guy. I'd have my own private plane, and people would want. I'd be on.

[A]

I don't know that you would have your own private plane.

[C]

I'd be on all the talk shows.

[A]

I'd say it on the side of the plane. You have custom graphics.

[C]

I'd be goat guy. Because that would mean that I didn't actually have to do it, because I don't think I could say, come here, little goat. Turn around.

[A]

Why do you have to talk to it? Well, I mean, it's weird.

[C]

You got to kind of create a little romantic environment.

[A]

How are you going to explain to your kid? Well, I'm talking about your child in this case, not the goat. Yeah, but you got to have that conversation with them.

[C]

You can't tell them the truth. All right, I'd have to be single. I'd have to be single. With no kids.

[B]

Today, I'm just going to be DEZ Bryant. Throw up the X.

[A]

No, you have to answer.

[B]

You always categorize us as, you know, we all have very much the same sense of humor.

[A]

Yeah, we do.

[B]

I am really not a hypothetical fan. I'm really not.

[A]

Especially when they get to this greatest thing.

[B]

I don't think that Jesus gave us sports hypotheticals are. But I think real life stuff. Goat or no goat? No, I don't want to waste my time.

[C]

And it's okay. That's okay if you don't like them, but you do have to answer them.

[A]

You do. You are a fighter, legally to answer them under the podcast laws of America.

[C]

Fair.

[B]

Catch it at the 5, and I'll take it from there.

[A]

No, you have to choose. So you're choosing the goat. Who knows if the goat hates it? I mean, how do you know that?

[C]

Who knows that you're gonna hate it, right?

[B]

I'm not doing that.

[A]

You might find a new hobby.

[B]

I'll do the same thing Craig's doing. I'll be goat influencer guy.

[C]

Because you know what? If you.

[A]

You guys. I don't know that the part of the hypothetical is that you get to be famous for the goat.

[B]

We are. We're going to be on every talk show and embrace it.

[A]

He made that up. That's not part of.

[C]

No, it' however, you're going to handle it. And my plan to handle it would be to embrace it and become a millionaire off of it.

[A]

You know what? Our society is dumb enough that that probably is possible.

[C]

Yeah, it will.

[A]

You could be. If you embrace the goat guy with no shame. Yeah, you'd be. Yeah. Michael Strahan's interviewing you on Good Morning America or wherever the show he's working for.

[C]

I'd have a million Instagram followers. Yeah. Post pictures with goats all the time.

[A]

Goat guy would be the most popular.

[B]

You thought the name thing was a tough decision. How about goat?

[A]

I know it, boy. Why didn't I have that? Why didn't Mark Cuban ask me if I wanted to change my name or have sex with a goat?

[C]

You know the tough thing about those hypotheticals is if no matter what side you choose, you get ridiculed by the people asking the hypothetical. Because if you chose.

[B]

That's another reason I don't like hypotheticals.

[C]

If you chose, well, I'll have sex with the goat and nobody will ever know about it. Then they have a field day with you having sex with a goat.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And see, that's my biggest problem.

[A]

Every time you talked on the air, it would be a goat sound effect going off in the background.

[B]

I don't know if you've kept up with this, Craig, but through the years, as we do hypotheticals, you and I answer them.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Gordon does not. And that's why he likes. Oh, this is such a fun discussion. Come to think of it. No, because he never says.

[C]

We've had four here in the last 10 minutes.

[B]

He hadn't answered one of them. I do not keep it up with them.

[A]

I do the heavy lifting of authoring them. That's what it's about. See, you get to have the fun. I don't get to have fun. I can do all the work.

[C]

Let's ask Sophie's Choice. What do you do?

[A]

I think in that case, you just switch to a different book.

[B]

See, there?

[C]

See? He's not going to answer.

[A]

I don't like Siren anyway, so.

[B]

But this is the guy who loves hypotheticals. But he never answers.

[C]

He only loves asking. He doesn't love thinking about it.

[B]

Come on. To you, so called Gordon Martin. Keith, I'm on to you.

[A]

That's my real name. It's my real name.

[B]

Dallas Maverick.

[A]

I did not change it. I didn't accept the money for it. And now I look back at that hypothetical that it wasn't even a hypothetical. It was an offer that he gave me. I think I made a mistake. I should have taken the money.

[B]

If you would have taken.

[A]

It was only a year. I mean, at the time I didn't know the future, so I didn't know whether am I going to die in a car accident this year. And I got to have that on my fricking tombstone, Right?

[B]

Yeah. You take that money, invest it 25 years ago. And what's that worth now?

[A]

I mean, I would have Goatman money now.

[B]

I don't know about that.

[A]

I'd have my own plane with its personalized graphics with a picture of Craig behind a goat. For some reason, I have to use your pictures.

[C]

Yeah. Why am I getting.

[B]

Because he doesn't do hypotheticals, that's why.

[A]

Yeah, I don't do hypotheticals. I like to save my hypothesis and let other people do it.

[C]

All right, George, from now on, when he asks either of us a hypothetical, we don't answer until he answers. Answers first.

[B]

I've tried that before and somehow he has this like, I don't know, Jedi thing. He turns it back on us again and we're answering and he's not.

[C]

You just have to stay in your stance, okay?

[A]

It's impossible. You can't resist. You can't resist.

[B]

All right.

[A]

We had fun talking about having sex with goats somehow, and I didn't intend for us to go that direction. I think Craig introduced the goat.

[B]

My daughter in law asked me this week, she said, is the podcast going to be fun this week? I said, yeah, it's going to be fun.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I can't wait for her to hear this.

[B]

Sorry, Kaylee.

[A]

For her to know that her uncle works with Goatman. Hey, thanks to Peter Welpton for producing this. And if you would like to email us, you can do so. It's themuserspodmail.com so that is our email address and listen to all the episodes and recommend it to a friend because thanks to you, we have now reached 1 million downloads. So now how long will it take us to get to 2 million? That's the big question.

[B]

Who knows?

[A]

I'm predicting it'll slow to a crawl after this conversation.

[B]

This may end it.

[A]

There you have it. I Love you. Bye. Most definitely. Thank you so much for listening. And don't forget, you'll never miss an episode of the Musers, the Podcast when it drops early on Wednesday or Cowboys Weekly Edition your football friends when it follows on Thursday. If you're subscribed or followed to this on whatever podcast player you're using right now. Thanks again. The Musers the Podcast is a tired head production. This isn't your average podcast. Do you like partying? I do.

[C]

Like a huge chug of tequila.

[A]

The Howler Head whiskey bottle chug in front of Dana White. That was the first, first time we ever went to la. We somehow got into a video party. What's the Elon Musk House Party look like? My party's generally a very high production value. This is Full Send. I do want to do a lot more pranks. Bunch of different pranks. Join the party. Jack Doherty in the house. Feeling good, man. What are we going to talk about with Will Smith?

[B]

I know what you're going to say.

[A]

Shout out to fio. It's been entertaining, dude. The Full Send podcast.

[C]

Grab the boys, grab the beers.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

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