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- [00:02]
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- [00:34]
George Dunham
it's the Musers the podcast Cowboys Edition Football friends. It's George Dunham and Bob Sturm talking Cowboys. We're getting closer to that draft, Bob, and we've gone through now two weeks I guess, of this free agency thing. When we last left you we were trying to square, okay. OSA Odigazua was one of the few players we liked on this defense and we trade him for a third round pick. You trade him in the conference to San Francisco and. Yeah, okay. Since. So we took a week off just to contemplate that if nothing else.
- [01:14]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [01:14]
George Dunham
So let's get up to date on free agent signings or trades. Nothing huge since last time we left. We do have a Max Crosby update which we're going to get to.
- [01:27]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [01:27]
George Dunham
But before we get there, let's talk about where we are with what they've done with personnel.
- [01:33]
Bob Sturm
Okay. So I'm going to say on the last episode we, we had a nice talk about Jalen Thompson, so forth. And, and, and so that was a very nice selection. Very nice signing I should say. They we also discussed the Rashawn Gary acquisition, which, which I think I, I'm starting to really wrap my hands around, arms around. And we can dive into that as we go. So those two were already in the barn, as was PJ Lockdown. And beyond that, what they've done over the last couple weeks include the acquisition of Sam Howell. I don't know that we have spent much time on Sam Howell, but I do know that from hearing you and knowing my innermost thoughts of him, he's always been a guy that at least gets you interested in seeing more. There are I suppose, two types or maybe several types of developing quarterbacks and he is from one of the more attractive bins, which is okay, there's something in there. And for me, George, with that one, I would simply say I think they must have a challenge with Joe Milton to say which of you developmental quarterbacks on short term deals has earned the right for another year, another trip around the sun. And I don't, I don't have massive issues with Joe Milton other than it does appear. He's got a long ways to go and frankly usually quarterbacks at this point are either close or they're not ever going to happen. And so he's kind of in that third category of long ways to go. But we don't really have a better idea right now. And so here is Sam Howell to provide at least an off season program and training camp of competition. And may the best man win. And I'm not positive that Joe Milton can win that job against Sam Howell, but Joe Milton has two years left on his deal and Sam Howell is a one year, $2.5 million contract. I don't know if that should decide anything but, but that would be the difference between the two guys and that would give Joe Milton, I think, a slight head start in the competition.
- [03:54]
George Dunham
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if all three are somehow on this roster. Maybe they take a chance that one of them could make it through and get back on the practice squad. And I do think, and I think I may have mentioned this in our last episode, that they would like to be in a position where God forbid, you had to go without Dak for a month. I think Hal is much more prepared to do that than Milton right now. Maybe things change by the time you get to September, but I think right now I would feel better about that. I agree about him starting three or four games in a row.
- [04:29]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, the old thing, you know, they talk about this quite a bit, the, the personnel guys is if we lose QB1 for a month, which of our backups are most likely to get us two and two and, and you know, you're not going to win them all. Even QB1 is probably not going to win them all. But can you go two and two and keep your season afloat? And I think we both agree that Sam helps probably gets you closer there on that path. Okay, so beyond that, Sam Howell 1 year 2.5. Sam Williams brought back at 1 year 2.5 with a chance to make it 3. I would say to that at that price given what his role will be, which is a depth edge rusher. Cool. That's, that's a, that's a fine price point. I've got no issue at all. I don't love Sam Williams, but at roughly league minimum. Let's go.
- [05:27]
George Dunham
You know, this is going to sound crazy, but it kind of applies to a player who plays in space better maybe than he does coming out of a three point stance. I think he's blocked a couple of kicks. I think when you move him around and you just say, okay, stand up if you want. I don't care. Just go get the quarterback.
- [05:50]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, that may be.
- [05:52]
George Dunham
And it's another year of, you know, him being in this league. I think That's. That's worth 2 million a year for. For sure. And he has shown flashes. We just haven't seen a whole lot of it. He was hurt and then, yeah, he didn't perform just real consistently. But they may have something there. Who knows?
- [06:16]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I don't know. Have you in any way done any research on their new pass rush coach, B.T. jordan?
- [06:26]
George Dunham
No.
- [06:27]
Bob Sturm
I believe he might be Brandon Jordan. I'm trying to remember, but, yeah. Brandon Jordan was hired by the Cowboys after they filled out their coaching staff, and he has worked with many of the best pass rushers in the NFL, including Micah Parsons, Miles Garrett, Max Crosby, Von Miller. Okay, so let's start there. Strong reputation for developing elite talent, including the Denver Broncos. And the story with the Denver Broncos last year, of course, was that they had a great pass rush. And it was a bunch of guys like, where did this guy come from? Nick Bonito is a great example, a great success story. And so the hiring of pass rush specialist Brandon Jordan has a lot of people, you know, kind of wondering, is Sam Williams the type of guy that gets with this dude and begins to learn the techniques and. And the. The best paths to become a better pass rusher? And, you know, honestly, it's such a. I. I don't want to get lost in the weeds here because the most important reason I would say that is I don't fully grasp the techniques of pass rushing like I wish I did. And I think a lot of that is I'm just. I've just never done it. And so I can. I can watch clinics. I can watch people try to say, okay, here's good hand techniques and here's good footwork, and they're matched up and all these things. But at the end of the day, I'm kind of a poser in this space just because it's. It's very, very difficult to. To understand what goes into it.
- [08:13]
George Dunham
But I like the concept of this is a guy who works with pass rushers, and.
- [08:18]
Bob Sturm
That's right.
- [08:20]
George Dunham
I like the technique that gets there. And.
- [08:22]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [08:22]
George Dunham
And honestly, he has a track record of that, so.
- [08:25]
Bob Sturm
He does. And the way I was going is I've looked at a bunch of pass rushers in every draft and this draft, and I'm start. I'm at least far enough down the road that you can identify very Quickly pass rushers that have a plan, and then pass rushers that don't have a plan. And I know that sounds absurdly obvious, but there are a couple guys. Malachi Lawrence, I just. I just did his tape from Central Florida, and he is a player who seems to have a real bag, an arsenal, if you will.
- [09:02]
George Dunham
Okay.
- [09:02]
Bob Sturm
And. And you can kind of see how he's doing a lot of different things at different situations that almost set up the next down and the next move. And he really does a nice job of. Of planning and. And then executing his. His pass rush technique. And then I did somebody else the next day, and I'll leave his name out of it because I don't want to be mean here and just pick one guy out. But there are a lot of guys, you see at the college level that their idea of pass rush is go fast, go powerful, and sort of try to run over the offensive lineman in this Tasmanian Devil fury of energy, you know, but you don't really have a plan. And so you're trying to, like, go straight down the middle, right through the sternum of an offensive lineman, and you're never, like, trying to get half a man and get under his shoulder and just all these things that go into it. And so I'm saying all that to say basically what you said very succinctly, which is, okay, here's a guy who does this at a very high level. Let's get him in our building and working with our guys and see if you can unlock some things with some of these very talented athletes who just. When the. Sometimes when the ball is snapped, it's just fog and blur and fast, and they're running around and they're trying to get somewhere, but they're not totally sure where they're trying to get. And sometimes they can run into sacks just out of activity. But. But if you have a plan and. And have a real craft about how you're doing all this, you know, you can become the best version of yourself.
- [10:38]
George Dunham
I guess it's the part of football that nobody likes to talk about it. I don't necessarily think it makes great talk radio or podcasting. I do think we have more time to talk about it here. Yeah, I think it'd be cool, training camp to get some of these coaches on to talk about this very thing. And that is the work of technique. The reason.
- [10:59]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [10:59]
George Dunham
You see guys doing things at training camp, and we're over there just thinking, man, what are they doing now exactly? And why do they keep doing that over and over Again, it's because that first step that. That movement of your hand, the rip, the whatever it is that you're working on over and over and over again, nobody wants to talk about it. No one really wants to watch it. But it is what makes a player like Sam Williams eventually hit if they're going to hit. I think back of if you go back in Cowboys history, I think it took Tony Wise to make Nate Newton a great offensive lineman. You know, I think they working with a lot of those. Same thing with Kevin Gogan. I think those guys just took this huge jump when Jimmy Staff got the town and slow. All of a sudden they've got this offensive line. Some of them same players that were here during the Landry era, but with this technique of. No, this is how we do it. We. We use this technique. We. The Cowboys were always very finessed, but this was more of a power game. That's just one example. But, man, I think that's huge and it can work out. You got to have the right guys, you got to have ability and all that. That's what I like about Schottenheimer, you know, he just. He has ideas, he has concepts, and
- [12:18]
Bob Sturm
he tries turning over rocks, you know.
- [12:20]
George Dunham
Yeah, hey, let's. I've heard about this guy. Let me talk to him. Okay. Christian Parker, you're hired.
- [12:26]
Bob Sturm
That's right.
- [12:26]
George Dunham
Just things like that. I don't know. It's interesting. I think we ought to expand on that in the. In the off season.
- [12:33]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I do too. And you know, it's going to take a little while for us to understand what they're doing, but, you know, both of us love the game of golf, and I think that is a great example. If you could just say in your entire life, how many swing thoughts have you been told or read about or watched online or just whatever. And you're like, oh, maybe this is the key. And if you could, you know, at least in my case, if you could like have some sort of iPhone, notes of all of the ideas you've had in your head about how to become a better player. And then football, of course, you know, it's all happening so fast. And there's another group of guys called offensive linemen who are also trying to refine their technique to figure out how to stop you. And so it's just, you know, it's so hard to be good at this sport, is what we're saying. And, and, and so anyway, every player's got a different journey. Sam Williams, we know, is a better player than we've seen, we've seen glimpses. But, but anyway, that's a super long way of saying one year, 2.5 million sounds like a, you know, a great idea to, to keep figuring him out if you can. Keep allowing him to figure it out if you can. And just understand that Dorrance Armstrong got out of your building and then became what appears to be a much better pass rusher. You don't want that happening. You don't want to spend years with somebody and then the first or second year they're somewhere else. They're finding success at a higher level than they did with you. And sometimes you're just not patient enough. Sometimes they get another approach. And so anyway, it's very complicated. Okay, let's move on the next day. So now we're to March 13th. So this is, I think the Friday of the first week. They bring in Kobe Durant. One year, one year, four million. We know Kobe Durant very, very well just because he has had a very nice run with the Los Angeles Rams. He's done a lot of winning. He's been in a lot of big games. Perhaps the most notable game was his last game with the Rams or second to last game with the Rams, that famous game, game against the Chicago Bears in the playoffs. In that game, Kobe Durant had two interceptions of Caleb Williams, but he was also covering Cole Komet on the Hail Mary or whatever you want to call that ridiculous play by Caleb Williams. Where, where, where the big, the big tight end pushed off a tiny corner and we wondered was that offensive pass interference? And then we looked, got a second look and nah, it just looks like two guys fighting for the. And one is like £80, you know, stronger. And, and the little guy is Kobe Durant. So ye. Boo. He finds the ball a lot. He is a very frisky player, but he's also extremely tiny. And, and, and you know, he has always had, I mean he's always been this guy, right? The thing about small players is they're used to being small. He's. He's not small. Stature wise, he's 511, but he's 182. And I would say the average corner, if I were to guess is probably 195 in the NFL, if I were to guess and I don't know if you might have one, maybe it's 190. I doubt it's too, I doubt it's 200. But anyway, the point is 180 is dangerously small. To play outside corner in the National Football League just. And that's why you won't get drafted high. He was a fourth round pick, but he has pretty much been a starter for four years or at least a rotational guy. Played a ton of football and has pretty much always been on the outside. George. And that's what's interesting is usually these smaller guys move inside, but they've kept him outside and out there. There are mismatch issues. There is, you know, whether that is tackling a guy in the flat. If Saquon Bark comes around the corner at 225 and you're a 182 pound corner, I mean just imagine whatever you weigh in life, imagine trying to tackle somebody at a full sprint who weighs 50 pounds more than you.
- [17:11]
George Dunham
It's.
- [17:11]
Bob Sturm
It's just not fun. It's not fun and it's not easy.
- [17:16]
George Dunham
Yeah. And here's the thing I like about him though. Kobe Durant, again, maybe my bar is too low, but watching the Rams this year, he kind of snuck on, snuck up on me as an available free agent and when they got him is like, well, heck yeah. And again, every time I watched them play, he was around the ball, you know, and I just shoot.
- [17:41]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [17:42]
George Dunham
A guy who can cover. That sounds good to me.
- [17:45]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [17:45]
George Dunham
And he can cover now. I think you're right. I think he may be better off in the slot than outside. But man, maybe not though. Maybe not.
- [17:55]
Bob Sturm
Maybe not. Because inside you gotta, you gotta do run fits. So. So I don't know.
- [18:01]
George Dunham
I think Christian Parker would prefer that and will give up the size outside because he figures maybe someone else can make that play and he wants that. That coverage thing that I think is, is a strength of his and that, man, I think that's a thumbs up. They needed another corner. What is going on at corner with this team after last year's debacle? I'm not sure. If nothing else, how about some insurance and at least we know this guy can play.
- [18:30]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And I think later we'll get to even a smaller signing on Darian Kendrick, who also has been with the Rams for the lion's share of his career. Both of them are from the 2022 draft. Kobe Durant was the fourth rounder. Darian Kendrick was the sixth rounder. Now, Kendrick has been a slot guy and Kendrick has been a guy that, that frankly bounced around last year. He ended up in Seattle and then Seattle put him, I think back to the practice squad. So the Rams grabbed him again. And so there are two different levels of players. Right. Okay. Kendrick is a. Might make your Roster guy and Durant is a, might be a starter for you guys. So we have to, we have to remember what we're discussing here. But in both cases, they both went to free agency and there wasn't really a market for them. That, that was super appealing. And so in both cases, the Cowboys got them for next to nothing. Kobe Durant for $4 million. And I think, you know, Darian Kennard was, was. Is probably a league minimum guy. So. So in all these cases, we're going to start throwing some names at you here. Fast and furious. We just did Sam Howell, then Kobe Durant. Matt Hennessy is a depth offensive lineman who has pretty much been a center his entire career.
- [19:57]
George Dunham
Replaces Brock Hoffman, who you lost and yeah, I don't know much about him. I think Brock Hoffman can start in this league. Call me crazy, I just love the, I love the tenacity he plays with.
- [20:10]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I don't know if he's a excellent starter, but I don't disagree with you. I've always liked Brock Hoffman. He's got that dog in him. So, you know, I'm always going to give him the benefit of the doubt because basically a hole football players are kind of what you need. And Brock Hoffman has that has that situation of, you know, squared away. So Matt Hennessy's brought in depth Otito O. Bonya Ogbonia. Yeah, not even positive.
- [20:40]
George Dunham
His numbers aren't great, but he feels a need and a bigger defensive lineman that I don't know, I've heard decent things about.
- [20:48]
Bob Sturm
Well, yeah, and I think the best way to discuss this is under the heading of, hey, what's the deal with getting OSA and Solomon Thomas out of here and bringing in a guy like Otito Obonia from ucla? What's the deal? And here's the deal. Those guys weigh 290. This guy weighs 325. And I think what we're seeing is in your 3, 4 setup, they really want the beef at those two defensive end spots and defensive tackle. And so I think they want Kenny Clark at the one Tech at the nose tackle, if you will. And I think they want Quinn and as the three Tech on one side. And then I think they want a double team eater like a Bonya. But there's probably going to be more. Maybe Jay to. I'm sure I'm thinking of somebody else, but. But really, let's not spend a whole lot of time on this big dude until we see him play. But let's circle back to Solomon Thomas, Oso Digizua and Even Perry on Winfrey, as the Cowboys have pretty much just scrubbed their depth chart of any undersized defensive tackle, defensive end that can play interior for them.
- [22:10]
George Dunham
They're just.
- [22:10]
Bob Sturm
They're. They're all gone.
- [22:11]
George Dunham
They want Beef. They want this thing. He wasn't. He was always an undersized guy. I loved him.
- [22:16]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, but I did, too.
- [22:18]
George Dunham
I guess it's a scheme thing.
- [22:20]
Bob Sturm
Well, it is a scheme thing.
- [22:22]
George Dunham
Salary thing. Yeah.
- [22:23]
Bob Sturm
And that. But that should. Yes, both in that case, for sure. But in the case of, like, Solomon Thomas and Perry and Winfrey, it's just like, yeah, bro, we don't have any room for you because we're not. We're not using your type of player anymore. So it does give me hope that there is some autonomy given to Christian Parker. Like, okay, well, let's. Let's find the players that you think fit what you're trying to do best. And, okay, you need these defensive backs. Okay, we're going to go get Durant, Thompson, P.J. lock. We're going to start stacking the types of defensive backs you're looking for. Okay, you need this. Okay. You don't need this. All right, well, let's get these guys out of here, then. So we are seeing, and it's not particularly sexy, I'll tell you that, but we are seeing a transformation underway with this defense. And part of it's going to be some exits. Part of it's going to be some blank spots on the depth chart, to be honest with you, where you're just going to be like, bro, I don't see anybody here. What is your plan? And I guess the first thing is to move guys out and in some respects, to clear money. In other respects, maybe just to be cool to those guys to say, let's find you a job. You know, you came here under the premise that this is the Matt Eberfluous defense. We want to do right by good guys like Solomon Thomas and say, let's find you a home where they want to, you know, use you. Here's Aaron White, Cotton's new destination. Fine, let's. Let's. Let's send you there. But it just. It just feels like the transformation's underway. Are there maybe even more open spots on this defense than there were when we started? Yeah, probably on the, on the defensive front. Yeah, there's. There's still some. Some great mystery about it, but that's the transformation. I think that's all the new names we've filled out that they. They signed Princeton Fant to another Small deal Tyrus White is or Tyrus Wheat is back after a year in Detroit ready Stewart and TJ Bass got their, their small deals to continue on. So you know, honestly George, so I do think we're obligated to at least acknowledge that the claims that they're busting the budget and that there will be some really impressive free agent signings and so forth. At the end of the proverbial day. They gave Jalen Thompson a nice contract and Rashawn Gary a nice contract that he sort of already had. And otherwise this is the exact same as last year with a bunch of one year $3 million deals that might turn into something, but might not, probably won't. The league is not staggered by what the Cowboys have done in the last two weeks at all. And so we are still, I suppose, waiting to be impressed.
- [25:13]
George Dunham
I like, I like Thompson and Lockett safety. I think they help. I think Kobe Durant helps. I think Rashawn Gary helps. You made the point.
- [25:20]
Bob Sturm
I do too.
- [25:21]
George Dunham
Was made that okay if you're going to call him right at average or just above average. Well, the Cowboys didn't have anybody that you could define as that. I guess my only disappointment and I can't get this, I have not heard why this couldn't get done. I don't understand why somebody like Nakobi Dean or Devin Lloyd didn't get done now. Maybe they didn't love Lloyd as much as I do. I know Dean seem to be a fit. I still can't square in my mind how the Raiders can do it and the Cowboys can't. I love your theory about Jerry and Steven don't like to negotiate when they are trying to negotiate from an area of where they're not, you know, where they don't have an advantage and that's why they've sucked in free agency for so long. I think the personnel department here traditionally has done a good job of value shopping and I think they did it again. But man, I just think sometimes you got to go. All right, we'll pay you whatever the dean deal was. 3 years, 13 million a year. Let's get it done.
- [26:39]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I don't want to be unfair because valuation is so important in the sport and you probably should have a value on a guy and you probably should try to hold to it. But I do think Nicobe Dean was very, very important and I do think they put the same offer on the table that the Raiders put on the table is what it appears to be. So my counter to that is well Is he worth overpaying for? And they apparently, either. I don't know. Apparently, they. They circled back and said, this is our best offer we can give you. Now, why would Nicobe Dean prefer the Raiders over the Cowboys? Is this some giant, you know, dissertation on the state of Cowboys football right now? Is this a sign that Christian Parker and Nicobi Dean were not thick as thieves as we thought, maybe, or whatever? Honestly, I come away from it, and I think this will be my memory of why this happened. So when my grandkids tell them, ask me to tell them the story of Nicole Dean going to the Raiders, I think what I'm going to tell my grandkids that I don't have yet. George, the following. Nakobe Dean went to Georgia, Quay Walker went to Georgia, Eric Stokes went to Georgia all at the same time. And from what I can tell, Quay Walker and Eric Stokes were blowing up Nakobi's phone and saying we can all be together in Vegas. Quay Walker had signed earlier that day, and they were, I think, linebacker partners at Georgia. And now we can be linebacker partners again in Vegas, of all places. Are you kidding me? They're both. We're both going to get paid more than we've ever had. Let's go do this. I don't. I don't know how tight those three guys are, okay?
- [28:27]
George Dunham
But that's the best explanation I've heard. And that's.
- [28:29]
Bob Sturm
That's what I have.
- [28:30]
George Dunham
But I guess I would only counter that with, if I'm Jerry, I tell Nicobi Dean, how about another million guaranteed? Whatever. The Raiders, I agree. I'm giving you another million guaranteed, and I'm going to make this happen because I'm Jerry Jones. I just wish once we.
- [28:45]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [28:46]
George Dunham
And who knows? Maybe that's how they got Jalen Thompson. Maybe that was, you know, they. And they prioritize that over Dane. I don't know. I just. I worry about the linebacking position, Bob. Oh, I mean, so do I. There's some names out there that maybe they can still make a trade for, but, man, that's. I think that's a really scary movie. And that was, as we've talked about, the worst position on the worst defense that we have ever seen since back in 1960. They said, this is what you call professional football. And, yeah, this is the worst piece of garbage we've ever seen. So, yeah, there's still a lot of work to do, and maybe there's some deals to be done, maybe. For a linebacker. Let's not leave the Max Crosby story. Yet can we go there next? Because some more has come out on that and including Max talking about that bizarre situation of being traded to Baltimore, thinking he's going to be a part of a great organization, only to be told he's going back to Vegas. And were the Cowboys close to a deal before that deal with Baltimore was done, Would you still give away these these values to get somebody like Max Crosby? Let's go there Next on football friends,
- [30:10]
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- [30:40]
George Dunham
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- [31:55]
George Dunham
It has to be the most bizarre off season trade that wasn't that I can think of. There's been trades that have been nixed before because a guy doesn't pass a physical and it makes the crawl on ESPN and you go oh wow, that trade fell through. But Max Crosby, one of the most high profile defensive players in the league, rumored to be traded. Is he going to Dallas? Here Baltimore has an interest, maybe some teams in the Cowboys division, like Washington has an interest. Then all of a sudden it's announced, yes, they got a Micah Parsons like deal. They got two number ones. He's going to Baltimore. So he goes to Baltimore and then within 24 hours the deal is off. And their side of the story is, well, we sent him through our medical staff and didn't check out. He just had a knee surgery and he is not going to be a Raven. And now he's back in Vegas. Well, since the last time we talked about all that craziness, ESPN has come out with a detailed article. Ryan McFadden wrote it. And that's really interesting on confirming some of the things that were rumored. At least this, this report seems to about how close the Cowboys were. And then we also have some audio from a podcast, Bob, that outside of football friends, I think we need to start listening to. And that is the rush with Max Crosby and a couple of his bros, which I listened to this week and watched. It's got a video component to it as well. And it's, it's hilarious and it makes me want him.
- [33:37]
Bob Sturm
Is fake Max Crosby going to join us?
- [33:42]
George Dunham
He's maybe, yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe we will. Because, bro, I'm just sitting here in Baltimore, I'm like, what the F? You know, I'm like f. My, my F is F. And man, you talk about serious F bombs and bro and down. And there's a lot of low key this and low key that. And it was great though. And it made me go, yeah, man, the Cowboys need to get this done.
- [34:10]
Bob Sturm
Okay, so we need some cussing.
- [34:14]
George Dunham
So before we hear from Max, this is apparently what the Cowboys had first. I guess Venture was the number 20 pick this year and Osa Odigazua, who eventually went to San Francisco Raiders, balked at that. If you were going to trade OSA anyway, man, that would have been yes, sign me up for that from the Cowboys perspective.
- [34:35]
Bob Sturm
No. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:36]
George Dunham
Okay, we're in on that.
- [34:38]
Bob Sturm
Yep.
- [34:39]
George Dunham
Then apparently they said, no, we got to have more. So then number 12 and a third round, which this is before they had it from San Francisco. So this, let's just assume it would have been the 27th, 2027, third round. I'm a little squeamish, but I still raise my hand, say, yes, I will do that deal if I'm the Cowboys.
- [35:03]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, the prices are high and we can discuss the wisdom behind it, but I think you and I said something along these lines last time we were together, which is, can you find Anybody in this draft that can make you as good as Max Crosby can immediately. And the answer is no. And if, if we're all operating under the premise that Dak Prescott has two to three more years as a legitimate top level quarterback in this league, or however you want to say, let's say top 10, let's not start that fight again. But top 10 quarterback in this league, can he do it for two or three more years? Yes. Can he do it for five more years? Probably not. Okay, so the window, let's say three years. So now if I have two first round picks, should I convert them into guys that are ready right now, or should I draft a nice 21 year old who might be able to play for me for a decade? There are cases on both sides, but in terms of getting our excitement going and our countdown to training camp, very excited, there's no question that Max Crosby can give you more immediate value, but he's also going to cost way more. And that's where it gets complicated. But a first and a third, sure.
- [36:27]
George Dunham
Okay.
- [36:27]
Bob Sturm
Maybe even a first and a second. I.
- [36:29]
George Dunham
That apparently was the next level they went to. Okay, I tell you what, how about a. How about the 12th overall pick in a second? I still do it. I still do it for 69 and a half sacks and 110 games. 360 pressures during that time. That is 29 more than miles Garrett. So yeah, I'll sign up for that and I'll pay that and I'll pay him the remainder of the contract and I do it. And I'm not saying it guarantees we're going to finally raise a Super bowl trophy here, but I'm willing to take that risk.
- [37:08]
Bob Sturm
Right. I think I am too. I. That hurts. I think I am too. But essentially where we are now is more interesting to me and that's why I wanted to see. Okay, so the Cowboys made three offers and we do know because there's audio out there of Jerry doing an interview and just absolutely covering himself in. In. In love and adoration for Max Crosby. He loves Max Crosby, there's no question about it. And by the way, what's not to love? Max Crosby, if you like, like I said earlier, scary a hole. Football players that look like this is all they care about in life is, is getting to quarterbacks and, and trying to win each snap. Max Crosby is very high on the list. And we've certainly documented his mid Cities upbringing here in DFW and the fact that he seems like that type of guy. And it would be fun to have him here next to Quinn and Williams, next to, you know, a number of guys. Okay, so where are we now? Would you say holding pattern?
- [38:18]
George Dunham
I. I'm. I'm going to assume those offers still stand, but they may not be the same exact ones. In other words. Well, maybe the third, with the third that you just got from San Francisco be back in play or now in play, because it wasn't at the time. And you could tell them, hey, you don't have to wait until 27. You could have this year's third and a 12. I would hope that it is, but this is what I fear. Bob, can you make the same offer? Yeah, because it's not the same universe we're living in. You thought you had a deal, but you didn't have that deal and you don't have that deal and you're not going to get two number ones. But I'm willing to give you the 12th overall pick and you're getting the best quarterback.
- [39:09]
Bob Sturm
Okay, so we have two different conversations here, and I love them both. The first one is, should the Cowboys offer what they were offering in an effort to panic beat the Baltimore Ravens best offer? And when you find out the Ravens offer was fake, which, which I believe is the takeaway of all of this, is that the Ravens were sort of playing a game and they probably would have kept Crosby at the price, but the fact that they moved off it so fast when they saw Trey Hendrickson had no market tells me that there were very. I don't want to say. Well, maybe I do want to say dishonest tactics at work from Baltimore. I think it's reprehensible. But I also am not sure anything can be done about it, and I'm not sure anyone in the long run is going to care.
- [39:55]
George Dunham
Can I stop you right there? And because I think this is a good place to hear what Max has to say about that before we get to the price, because it is a fascinating story. How in the hell do you just say, no, we're not doing it after. After saying you're going to do it and pulling the trigger on the trade. Well, Max went through this whole thing about, man, I didn't know what was going on. I mean, you know, I got a bad vibe from their GM and I didn't get a good vibe on what was happening. I'm saying, holy F. In my hotel room thinking, is there something wrong with my knee? And he talks about Neil here. And this is from Max Crosby podcast. And the Neil that he refers to is Neil Elatrose. Who did his surgery. He is the surgeon to the superstars. Tom Brady, the late Kobe Bryant works in la. He's very well respected. And because now after Crosby hears this from the Ravens, he's thinking, man, is my knee messed up? Is. Do I not know something? And this is him addressing that.
- [41:02]
Max Crosby
Then I talked to Neil. Neil calls me and he called me way down. He's like, max, don't listen to any of that. He's like, your knee is great. You're exactly where you're supposed to be, or even ahead of schedule. He's like, you're doing everything right. He's like, they know you had your surgery nine weeks ago. It's obviously, if you get an mri, like, he's like showing me, literally, like the actual literature of, like, this is where knee's supposed to be at from a meniscus repair. Like, there can be MRIs. It could be misleading because it's still fresh in surgery and this and this and that. He's like, listen, you're doing everything right. Everything's going well. We're going to keep sticking to the plane. He's like, you will be back by training camp, okay?
- [41:40]
George Dunham
And I wanted to play that because I think that's really interesting that it's backed up by one of the most well respected surgeons in our, in our country. And also to your point, about what you're about to talk about, Bob, I don't know if the price comes down, if you have that, I don't know what's wrong with Baltimore, but this dude's ready for training camp and he's ready to go. And it's a meniscus here. We're not talking about knee reconstruction. I mean, a meniscus put me out for eight months, but it's not going to put Max Crosby out for eight months.
- [42:12]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, no, I agree with that. My only pushback on my offer would be I'm at an auction and I'm bidding against somebody and we're both going above what we want to pay, but we're trying to win the auction. And so if I find out the other person bidding wasn't real, then I'm going to kind of reduce my thought back to, okay, well, where is the biggest offer I have to beat? If Baltimore's wasn't real, and if the biggest offer I have to beat is, let's say, a late first, I got you, then I think the 20th pick is your best offer. And I also don't think the Raiders have any intention of allowing him to take the field for them again, whether they say so or not. I believe that's all posture.
- [43:05]
George Dunham
I don't see how they could. And he.
- [43:06]
Bob Sturm
I don't think he wants to be there, and I don't think they want. They want him there.
- [43:09]
George Dunham
He said on the podcast he's fired up about who they signed, all those Georgia guys, Linderbaum and all that. And so he's fired up about that. But at the same time, how about
- [43:18]
Bob Sturm
the Raiders siding a Raven during this whole thing? That's funny, too.
- [43:22]
George Dunham
I know the whole thing's just bizarre, but you're right. I just don't see. There's so much water under the bridge that it does bring the price down, because the whole league knows, oh, they got to get rid of him, and the price just came down.
- [43:36]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And by the way, it's not impossible that a third team does want to, you know, keep the price at two number ones. And, you know, if the Chicago Bears or. Or whoever really, really wants Max Crosby, they might. They might get this thing going again. That's why I think right now the Raiders are just trying to let the dust settle and allow everybody to collect their thoughts and allow time to pass and. And maybe this is something for draft weekend. So I think from a Cowboy standpoint, which is what football friends cares most about, here we have the two different discussions that are both linked together. One, should your offer be less than it is right now? Because I think it can be. I think you can still be the best offer and walk it back to, we'll give you pick number 20. Just pick number 20 or something like that.
- [44:34]
George Dunham
Let's go back to our first offer. We don't have OSA anymore, but let's start with, what do you think of number 20?
- [44:39]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And they could say no, but they are feeling the urgency of the draft each day. I think today, when this is released, we will be exactly four weeks from draft day. So. So the Raiders are on a ticking clock. If they want a 20, 26 draft pick, they've got 28 days to make that happen. So the Cowboys actually could. Following this scenario, they could. They could take it right to when they're on the clock at pick number 20, in my opinion.
- [45:15]
George Dunham
Sure.
- [45:15]
Bob Sturm
So. And I think this actually works out because, honestly, when I start to do my draft simulations, which. Which I was doing a couple days
- [45:23]
George Dunham
ago, man, you party so hard. It's just amazing how you.
- [45:27]
Bob Sturm
When I get to pick 20, George, there are times where I don't like what's there, and I want to get out of there and the first, you're
- [45:37]
George Dunham
saying, so just if you're the Cowboys, just wait it out.
- [45:40]
Bob Sturm
Yes. And so what I, what I might do is on draft morning, hey, Raiders, we are thinking about this 20th pick and there is a scenario under which we would be happy to flip it to you for Max Crosby. Where are you at on that? And the Raiders might say, you know, go pound sand. And that would be their prerogative. But I think as we get closer and closer to draft day, the Raiders might start saying, look, we know we thought we were going to get more, but pick 20, man, we're rebuilding. We can get a stud wide receiver there. We can get, you know, something real, real nice. It's not the craziest idea, guys. Let's have lunch and think about it. Meanwhile, the Cowboys have a plan for pick 20. They've got two or three names, but they're a little worried about them getting to 20. And so as this is happening, I see a scenario under which you start watching picks 15, 16, 17 and 18 go where you're like, ooh, we just got cleaned out. We don't love our trade back options right here. Let's call the Raiders back and see where they're at. And maybe at that moment you actually have enough leverage that the Raiders would say, all right, give us 20, you got max Crosby, we've got a deal. So I, I like this, but now I have to tell you about part number two, but I want to hear your response to part number one first.
- [47:13]
George Dunham
I like that. I like that idea. And I think that if I'm the Cowboys, I'm willing to quickly go to the conversation of, okay, it may take more than number 20. I'm willing to then say, you know, maybe started a 5th round pick or 4th round pick or something, and I'm, I'm ready to work back up to a combination of the Original Deal number one and deal number two. 20th overall pick and third round. Call me crazy, but I, But I would be willing to do that if I'm the Cowboys.
- [47:48]
Bob Sturm
This year's third. 20 and 92.
- [47:51]
George Dunham
How about next year's third?
- [47:54]
Bob Sturm
We still got it, right?
- [47:55]
George Dunham
I think so. I don't know. Okay, wait, did they trade that? No, I think that's.
- [48:00]
Bob Sturm
No, no, I think. I think we're good. I think we're good. Okay, so. So here's component number two, and forgive me if we're blowing through our hour here. That's okay. But I think component number two actually might be the reason none of this is going to Happen, which is three days after the Max Crosby trade. The Cowboys did their Rashawn Gary trade.
- [48:21]
George Dunham
Right.
- [48:22]
Bob Sturm
And what that represents is the stand up edge opposite Donovan Ezraku and a sizable chunk of your budget. And I don't know how much of that was. Let's do Max Crosby and then, oh, we can't do Max Crosby. Who's the second highest guy on our list for that particular opening? Oh, it's Rashawn Gary. Okay. We just gave the job to Rashawn Gary. Now Crosby's back open. Can we possibly fit them both in, given what we're trying to do here now?
- [49:04]
George Dunham
I say yes, but.
- [49:06]
Bob Sturm
I say yes. But I honestly, I have to concede, as much as I like to call the Cowboys cheaps, cheapskates, I have to concede that a two year, which I think is what Max has left at about 35 each. So two years, $70 million chunk. I think that can be done. But you might have to find an extension or somewhere in there. I'm just going to say financially, because you did Rashawn Gary, that gets really, really tight, I think. And then secondly, how many starting edges do you have if you want as a raku to, to, to sort of learn how to fly on his own? Now, as I was talking through this yesterday on the radio show with Corby and Dave, I do concede that as a raku, being a job share with a guy like Rashawn Gary or a guy like Max Crosby can only help him. And we're not talking about the rest of your career. We're talking about probably, you know, you could argue Rashawn Gary's a one year deal, even though he's got a two year contract. It only the first year is fully guaranteed. So you, you know, there would be some dead money. But you could say, okay, we didn't know we were going to have Max Crosby. Now that we do, you know, maybe Rashawn Gary is one and done. We'll see how it goes. But for now let's have three starting capable edges and maybe even four if you want to say, Sam Williams. But let's build some real depth and rotation here and let's just make it work. And now we got Crosby Quinn and Kenny Clark and Rashon Gary across our front and we feel like we're cooking with Greece right now.
- [50:55]
George Dunham
Absolutely. Yeah, I, I know it.
- [51:00]
Bob Sturm
I just don't know for Sean, Gary got Max Crosby's job and money is what I'm saying.
- [51:05]
George Dunham
Yeah, no, I think that's a legitimate point. And maybe you Know the signing. That's where the signing of Sam Williams comes in. Hey, we'll just get a guy to, to fit somewhere. I just, I want impact players. If, if you're going to do this, if, if it's all about the next three years, let's start getting some impact players in here. And everything that Crosby has done. And by the way, I know he looks, he's hilarious. You've got to go watch the podcast of Nothing for the Good when he played in Baltimore, how he played well there, how the whole scene was lit except for the murder in front of the hotel. I don't know what that was about. It's entertaining as I'll get out. I think he would be a character here. It would just. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. I, I don't know. Again, maybe we're stuck in the 90s, but to me, it's a Charles Haley kind of thing. It just, it changes everything.
- [52:00]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, it does. It does. And, you know, it makes our head spin at how quickly they went from Micah Parsons to all of this. But, yeah, it would be fascinating. It would be great. And this would be a really, really good defense almost immediately, even though we're not sure who would play linebacker. But it's. I just, I just don't know if the team hurt most by the Ravens comedy show is actually the Cowboys because the Cowboys quickly moved for that exact position. You know, if you look at Rashawn Gary, though, I do think you could actually argue that he's taking Jadavian Clowney's job. Yeah, more. More than he's taking anyone else's job. But, but again, it's a, It's a pretty, It's a pretty substantial price point. And by the way, because I doubt we're going to get to this today because we still have to talk about the other George. Yes, the. The third. The second George. Of our three man football friends, Bob George. And George is George Pickens. We still have to do that. But I do want to say, I want to pre. Say before we get into it next week or whenever. Rashad Gary's a dude.
- [53:13]
George Dunham
Okay.
- [53:13]
Bob Sturm
And. And he's going to make this team much, much better. And, And I realize there's a lot to, you know, to say that he's definitely not anywhere close to Micah Parsons or Max Crosby. And I will. I will say that's true. But I do think at his money, I think people are going to be way more pleased with Rashawn Gary than they think.
- [53:34]
George Dunham
All right, well, speaking of. Okay. No, I like that. Let's do that next week. Let's talk edges and linebackers next week and I think, okay, draftable, tradable linebackers, all that.
- [53:45]
Bob Sturm
Love it.
- [53:47]
George Dunham
Up next though, let's talk about how what the Seahawks did affected the Cowboys negotiations with the man we're calling the other George.
- [53:57]
Commercial Narrator
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- [54:20]
George Dunham
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- [54:30]
Bob Sturm
Try it today at Starbucks.
- [54:36]
George Dunham
Okay. When you're a Super bowl champion and you are a superstar and your contract is quickly expiring, you can get an extension. And Jackson, Smith and Jigba with the Seahawks got paid four years, 168 million, 120 million of it guaranteed. Highest paid wide receiver now in the NFL. And yes, right now he is, he is under the Cowboys wing, but they would like to get a long term deal done with George Pickens. Bob, the price just went up this week.
- [55:16]
Bob Sturm
It sure did. It sure did. And it also speaks to the wisdom of doing an extension on a rookie contract with two years to go because the new money is four for 168. And that's enough to make your head spin. Like are we really in a world where we are paying $42 million to a wide receiver in a season? And it feels like we are, which is just I suppose where we, where we are today, man, it's crazy. But it also, I mean every, every wide receiver in the sport celebrated. Pukinakua is next. And I suppose if you're Puka Nakua with potential off field stuff notwithstanding, you could probably say, well, I deserve more. And so I don't know where we're headed with this. And it's crazy but of course it affects George Pickens and that franchise tag and the way it affects it, well, this is important. Going back to Seattle, doing the contract two years early. Like I said, the new money's four for 168. That's 42 a year. That's a lot of money. But if you do it two years early, you can sort of cost average it down. And now you're looking at a six year deal that averages 32 a year as opposed to a four year deal at 42 a year. And so this is just wise accounting by NFL teams who see an impending contract coming around the mountain. And they say, before we have some sort of big fight with our player, let's figure out how to get this done now. Because when the actual new contract starts, which is September of 2028, the market will only have gone up again to where we might actually say that Jackson, Smith and Jigba is cheaper now than he would be in two and a half years when the contract starts. So I just want to say it's good for both.
- [57:25]
George Dunham
There's no doubt. If I'm the player, I want that money as quickly as possible, start letting it go to work for me. And you just did the math on how it works out great for the team.
- [57:34]
Bob Sturm
Well, I would just say how do we, how do we do this every year with other teams and have Micah and CD and Dak and Zeke and all these guys get to the very end of their contract and the team and the player are mad at each other and they sign a bad deal after a, after a friction conflict and we end up paying our quarterback 60 million a year and we end up trading Micah and we end up doing all this stuff, when in reality it's actually not that hard to say we've got a great player, we want to reward him early and we want to do that not only because he deserves it, but because it will benefit us in the end to do our deals early. See all the Eagles contracts. Anyway, I'm sorry, I realize we almost we went a while there without depressing cowboy fans, so I just wanted to circle back and make sure we did that. Okay, so now if you're the Cowboys, you have George Pickens on the one year franchise deal. And I think that the Smith and Jigba money is a fork in the road for George Pickens. Because for me, if I'm the Cowboys, I actually look at the Smith and Jigba deal and I say, well, what is guaranteed by Seattle is four for 120 and that's the real money, that's the $30 million a year that we are willing to pay you, Mr. Pickens. And I don't know that they would guarantee all that. In fact, I know they would not. But I think the framework of the deal might actually be even though the Seahawks had a couple fake years to work with, or not fake years, but they had a couple benefit years to work with, I think we can argue that the deal is for Pickens there at about 30 a year. And so I think the fork in the road is for George Pickens and David Mulaguetta to decide do we want what is being offered 4 for 1 20. Which is consistent, by the way, with Aman Ross. St. Brown with his deal was exactly 4 for 1 20. T. Higgins was 4 for 1 15. I'm trying to think of the other 4 for 1 20s. There were a couple other ones as well in there. They are eluding me off the top of my head. But the point is that is a, that is a really strong price point. It's not Justin Jefferson, it's not CD Lamb, it's not Jamar Chase, and it's not Jackson, Smith and Jigba. So this is the tier two wide receiver contract of the day is roughly four for 120, 30 million dollars a year. We have that offer. I would even tell Todd Archer or David Moore and make it public that this is our offer to George Pickens. We would love to have him. If Pickens and Mologhetta say we love playing in Dallas, we love what it offers, we love being across from cd, we love being of this offensive part of this organization, we have a new home, then we sign the deal right now. If we don't, then I believe I have to pretty much dig in and say you're playing under the tag in 2026 and then we're kind of planning to cut you loose in 12 months because we're just not going to pay our second wide receiver more than CD Lam. That's just a non starter and we can't go there. And so I, I really think the explosion in the market and we can honestly blame the Jamar Chase contract because before that all the deals were going up like $1 million. And now we're in a universe where it jumped $5 million just like that. And, and I just, I, I can't do that. I, you know, could you do 32 or 33?
- [61:30]
George Dunham
Because that's what. But did you mention Garrett Wilson and DK Metcalf?
- [61:34]
Bob Sturm
Okay, so, yeah, I just found that very good. George A. Monroe, St. Brown and Brandon Iuk were on 4 for 120. And then it does jump to Garrett Wilson at 4 for 130, which is 32, 5 a year, and DK Metcalf at 4 for 132, which is 33 a year. Do I want to put him right underneath CD Lam? I don't love it, but I probably wouldn't walk away for that. Small difference between Garrett Wilson and Aman Ross St. Brown. I kind of think Aman Ross St. Brown is a really fair contract, but I will concede that was signed I think in 2024. So there has been a upturn in the economy and in the cap in the NFL economy that is. And I, you know, I think we could say that maybe the drop dead point is the Garrett Wilson deal. But I guess what I'm saying is I need to play my cards right now if I'm the Cowboys because waiting will not make this cheaper. The second Puka Nakua signs, it gets even worse and it will continue to go that direction. So I almost need to make a decision on George Pickens post haste and I kind of need to put it in his court. We'd love to have you, we'd love to pay you an absurd amount of money, basically the franchise tag times four. And we are willing to guarantee a lot of it and we are willing to embrace you and cut you a beautiful nine figure check and just, you know, make, make everything beautiful. But we can't let this go a year. We can't let this go on to where we have to tag you a second time. What we will probably do is allow you to be a UFA at this point next year if you don't want to sign with us. And maybe you'll make more money, but maybe you'll have to play in Arizona to get it. And if you, and if you don't care, then go chase that slightly more money in a state with income tax or whatever. You, you know, however you want to pitch it. But I, I almost think if the Cowboys are smart, you make a fair offer. I say Aman Ross St. Brown, you say Garrett Wilson, that's fine, that's the range. And then you kind of spill the beans publicly so everybody knows and you kind of put George Pickens on the clock and say, man, we'd love to have you, but here's as far as we can go.
- [63:59]
George Dunham
And I think he signs that because I think he also, regardless of where he would have to go to get maybe more than that, I really think he, he saw the value in having Dak Prescott throw to him last year.
- [64:15]
Bob Sturm
I agree. And, and having CD Lamb draw coverage.
- [64:18]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [64:19]
Bob Sturm
And they, they, it all works together. And winning is fun and getting paid is fun. You know, the question was, is would George Pickens play on the tag? And, and the Mulligetta clients have never really played on the tag. They, they, they definitely hold in. They're definitely not going to go through camp drills where you could blow out your knee or something like that. So. So I would love to avoid that, but, you know, I've been around the block and been to Oxnard too many times to know that avoiding things is. Is not something we do real well. But I just think this is a, this is a good chance to, to do. To do a deal and, and, you know, kind of take it on this path and see where we go.
- [65:07]
George Dunham
Agreed. And I would have some optimism that they could work something out, but then again, I had optimism that they were going to break the bank and free agency, and they didn't do that. But we've been down that path and we'll see what happens. And maybe there's another deal to be done draft day or right before the draft. But I think you're right. I think if we do have another cowboy trade for a linebacker or. Yeah. Another trade for a linebacker or edge player, it. You may have to wait until the end of April that it would happen draft day and.
- [65:42]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [65:42]
George Dunham
Yeah. All right, let's do that next week. Let's. Let's talk about line back as linebackers that you would trade for. There's a. There's a few names out there that may be available, and some may be a pipe dream, some may be realistic. And let's talk about the linebackers that could be there for the Cowboys at 12 or 20 and put a little draft list together next week. What do you say?
- [66:09]
Bob Sturm
I think that's great. And maybe if you're really nice, I'll show you my draft simulator.
- [66:14]
George Dunham
Oh, man.
- [66:16]
Bob Sturm
Let you play around with it.
- [66:17]
George Dunham
I want to see that. Heck, yeah. Okay, we are going to party next week like we've never partied on football. Friends, thanks to Peter Welton for producing and thanks to my football friend, Bob Sturm. I'm George. We'll talk again next week.
- [66:39]
Bob Sturm
Westwood One Sports Talk. Start your day with Drake Seatol. The same guy who had the correct
- [66:44]
Commercial Narrator
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- [66:46]
Bob Sturm
Oh, that's me. Is going to give you the correct
- [66:48]
George Dunham
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- [66:50]
Bob Sturm
Finn, Black and Abdallah.
- [66:51]
Commercial Narrator
What an incredible shot.
- [66:53]
George Dunham
We've got college hoops, spring training and
- [66:55]
Bob Sturm
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George Dunham
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- [67:04]
Bob Sturm
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