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- [00:00]
George Dunham
K Pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Trick's meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja boys could take
- [00:12]
Bob Sturm
breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.
- [00:14]
George Dunham
It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.
- [00:27]
Bob Sturm
Ba da ba ba ba and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Hey, it's time for the football friends George Dunham and Bob Sturm to get back together. Users the Podcast Cowboys Edition the NFL Draft is almost here. It's exciting every year. Unless you don't have a pick or something in the first round, then it's kind of a bummer. Bob, as we've been discussing this entire off season, The Cowboys have two number one picks, 12 and 20. And if it just stayed right there, 12 and 20, you should get two players in here that could really help you out. But as we have suspected for the last couple of months and starting to look at the draft, the true impact big time defensive players will probably be gone at number 12. And that is, as you like to call it, the reality of 12. And that is, hey, that sounds like a great pick and it should be, should be a quality pick, but the true impact player defensively probably won't be there. So now should we just go to trade rumor central? And we've always talked about, hey, yeah, maybe a trade down out of 12 and maybe the Cowboys will if they can't make a deal to trade up. I hadn't really thought much about the trade up possibilities until all these reports here in the last couple of weeks. And one of them in particular is really interesting. Are you starting to think this is more and more a reality that the Cowboys will jump up?
- [02:06]
George Dunham
Well, I do think the Cowboys are a little nervous because they've been doing what we've been doing, which is just simply put pen to paper and try to figure out what those first 11 picks look like. And honestly, there are times where you get to 12 and you're just like, well, this doesn't really accomplish our goal of substantially helping our defense. You know, on the first day of the draft. You know, in a dream scenario, you leave the draft with two defensive starters that you think are not only starting caliber, but they're locking down those spots for five or six years or maybe 10 in a in a beautiful world. And so if that's the goal at 12 and 20, well, then there's an easy way to sort of play this out and say, okay, what is a dream scenario? And then what is a nightmare scenario for those two picks? And if you get to the nightmare side often enough, well, then you decide to try to take action to sneak forward at substantial expense, we should point out. But if you sneak forward, then you can sort of push the envelope and make sure that you leave with a difference maker and maybe you sacrifice the two number ones to go get one difference maker that you think is the bee's knees. But we should probably start with this discussion very quickly, which is how many. How many guys are there that you would be thrilled with at number 12 to help this defense? Because I think the number is six, but I want to see if you agree.
- [03:51]
Bob Sturm
Well, if you phrase it to help this defense, I'll go. I'll go four or five. I'll say Arvel Reese. I'll say David Bailey.
- [04:05]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [04:06]
Bob Sturm
Sonny Stiles.
- [04:08]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [04:08]
Bob Sturm
Caleb Downs and Reuben Bain.
- [04:13]
George Dunham
Okay, so you did not mention LSU's Mansoor Delane.
- [04:18]
Bob Sturm
I did not, but I think we should throw his name in there. I have seen him leading up to this week as a guy who would. Yeah, he's going to be there at 12. Now. I'm starting to see that he makes a lot of top tens and he won't be. And he is. Yeah, I would. I should definitely put him in there because he's the top corner in this draft and could help your defense.
- [04:40]
George Dunham
Yeah. And just so the people know, the Jermod McCoy discussion, the Tennessee corner, I think in a. In a perfect world, he's probably better than Delane in at least my study. And I don't pretend to know how the Cowboys do it. And I would also defer to them. I would say, though, that the medicals with McCoy are such that we have been led to believe. And so have reporters like Nick Harris and. And Joseph Hoyt, those guys out there that do a good job for the local papers. I feel like both of them have intimated the Cowboys are out on Jermod McCoy at 12. I assume that's a Medical feeling, and if it is, you probably wouldn't feel that different at 20. So maybe we should just take Jermod McCoy out of the discussion.
- [05:31]
Bob Sturm
I think so.
- [05:31]
George Dunham
So now we go back to the big five or the big six, and I guess the difference between five and six is the two defensive backs. But we all agree. Reese, Styles, Bailey, Bane are The big four. And now we have Caleb Downs the safety, and Mansoor Delaine the corner. Now, I think I would be thrilled with any of those six. I really would. I would be delighted. But I would also say I'm not positive I'm trading up unless I can get Styles, Bailey, or Reese. I think those would be the three guys I would talk myself into trading up for. Where. Where do you fall on that?
- [06:24]
Bob Sturm
I would.
- [06:25]
George Dunham
Especially if it costs you both number ones, by the way.
- [06:29]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, see, I don't. I don't like a scenario that cost me both number ones. I was hoping for. I don't either, but, yeah, I guess that would. Now, with the exception of the deal that we'll talk about here in a second, but I'd be willing to do that for Bailey, Reese, and Styles.
- [06:47]
George Dunham
Okay, so we're on the same page. We have six defensive players that we want, one of them at 12, and we have three defensive players that we feel are tier one, and then tier two would be your Bane, Downs and Delane. I believe it's Delane, not Delaney. Do you. Do you agree with me?
- [07:07]
Bob Sturm
I've heard Delaney.
- [07:08]
George Dunham
Okay. Okay. So we have two tiers of three, and any of those getting to 12 would be a delight. And so I think we should start with what we would both dream of, which is we stay at 12 and one of those guys or maybe two of those guys ends up in our lap, and then we can keep 20 and do our thing. The thing about 12 and 20, which I think both of us are on the same page in terms of recommending against, is that if you want to move up from 12, the prices are super high up there. The point charts are super expensive. And so 12 is worth 1200, 20 is worth 850. So now we have 2050 draft points and that actually, George, can take you almost all the way to number three. That is enough points to get you up to number three. Three is worth 2200, I believe, on the draft chart. And you have 2050. So you might even have to throw in a third or a fourth to. To bridge that gap. Unless Arizona is willing to make a sale and give you a bargain. But then. So we're looking at. If you were to take 12 and 20, the range that we think you could get to is probably four or five or six, but maybe three. And so your target teams for a trade up, if you did that sort of thing. Arizona, Tennessee, the Giants. Do you think the Giants would do a deal with you? And then Cleveland. And then Cleveland at 6.
- [08:43]
Bob Sturm
Yes. And that brings up the little Brownies who. And this one has been all over the place. On our radio show we talked to Dane Brugler, the Athletic. He was all over it. It's been suggested Joseph Hoyt in the morning news. I've seen it a couple of other places to get the number six. Could the Cowboys get there and land somebody like Sonny Stiles by giving up 12 and 20 and then getting back the Browns sixth overall to get up to number six and also their 39th overall pick in the second round? That gives you just a little more draft points. I believe it's 2100, the total between 6 and 39. And as we talked about last week, Bob, you're going to have a lot of players that you really wouldn't want to take at 20, but you could certainly feel better about taking them in the. In the second round at 39.
- [09:49]
George Dunham
Yeah. Provided any of them are still there and you make that calculation. Dropping back 19 spots is actually quite reasonable. Now, ironically enough, the guys you would drop back 19 spots to take and feel better about are often linebackers. And if you trade up to get Sonny Styles, we assume you don't need linebackers anymore. Yeah, you wouldn't take two linebackers, would you?
- [10:11]
Bob Sturm
Unless they do different things, maybe.
- [10:15]
George Dunham
Yeah, one is more of a. Yeah, I guess I'm going with the idea. Yeah, I'm guess I'm going with the idea that nickel is base and so we only have two on the field at the same time. I don't mind depth for sure, but with Overshone getting one of those spots and Sonny Stiles getting the other one, maybe we're looking at something different at 39 and who could say what would be there? But maybe somebody to help my defensive line, maybe an edge, maybe a corner and yes, maybe a wide receiver because of the George Pickens situation. Those seem like all viable options at 39, but let's go back to six. So I like this trade for a number of reasons and I like Cleveland because I do think Cleveland is the type of team that would fancy 12 and 20 as more valuable to their needs at this point of their roster build than. Than just number six. And. And that's a wild guess, but. But that seems to make sense. But more importantly, the reason you need to do that deal with them is to get in front of Washington. And Washington is of course a rival and of course a division bunk mate. So whoever they take, you're going to be seeing a couple times a year. But they also seem to be the most frequent Home for Sonny Stiles. And that is whether you believe mock drafts or whether you just read the Washington papers. There does seem to be the blinking light that their dream scenario is that Styles falls to them at seven. And so again, we're not saying it's a one person draft, and we're not saying that you should move heaven and earth to go get the best linebacker you can get, but if that is what they're thinking right now in the war room, then Cleveland is the most obvious target.
- [12:03]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [12:04]
George Dunham
And the reason you would rather do Cleveland than say Arizona at 3 is. Arizona at 3 means you give up 12 and 20 and you get nothing back besides that pick. Whereas Cleveland, it's a lowered value. Now, Washington can jump Cleveland, of course, so, so you have to be careful that you, you don't pull this trigger before the draft happens.
- [12:28]
Bob Sturm
Sure.
- [12:29]
George Dunham
Because then Washington sneaks up to five and you feel really dumb. So you have to sit on this until Cleveland's on the clock. But at that point, then if your guy is there, not only do you get your guy, but then the valuations suggest that they have to give you back their second most likely to do that deal fairly. And yeah, 6 and 39 for 12 and 20. I think I do that every day of the week.
- [12:55]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I think I do too. Uh, let's talk about moving up just three spots. This one was brought up in the morning news that Dallas moves from number 12 to number 9. And to do that, they give up the third round pick that they just got from San Francisco in the OSA o digi zooa trade and that moves you up to number nine. I don't like that. It's a numbers thing with me. I don't, I don't even care what the. I know moving up nine, it, it's more of a value than 12, but that means you're trading basically OSA and your 12th pick to get up to number nine for who? I just. Two of those three guys that we talked about are gone anyway. Or two of the four to the four or five are gone. Maybe three of the five are gone. So. Yeah, I don't like that nearly as much.
- [14:00]
George Dunham
Okay, so in, so in that scenario, number nine is Kansas City. And we do know that Kansas City has had their cornerback room completely wiped clean here in the last couple months in free agency. They traded Trent McDuffie. They traded him to the Rams, by the way. They picked up the Rams pick at number 29 in the trade, but they need corners. And so they've got two first rounders the Chiefs do, and they're probably going to take a corner. And so you do this trade with them to help Kansas City grow their draft capital, but also to pretty much convince them to let you take the corner from LSU or the safety from Ohio State before they do, because they're now dropping back to 12. And of course, we don't really know what Cincinnati and Miami are going to do between us, although I feel like Cincinnati is usually a reasonable offensive line piece to try to keep Joe Burrow upright. Miami is the biggest wild card ever. And frankly, it wouldn't shock me to see Miami as a draft partner or a trade partner with somebody because, you know, again, we're. They. They need lots of ammunition. They need lots of bullets. Not just. Not just pick number 11. So in that one, we are assuming the big four are gone, which again, projections suggest that's. That's a reasonable idea, but just to reset for people at number nine. If you're down to the two defensive backs, which I think is reasonable, that means Reese and Styles are both gone, and so is Bailey and Bain. And so now we're to the ninth pick, and we just don't have enough offensive players pushing guys down. And we're starting to panic because it's three teams before us and only two of our big Six are left. And. And you just. What you want to avoid, of course, is being cleaned out of all six when you get to 12. So this one is. This one's a hand of poker, George, where you've got to steady and you've got to. Hopefully you got good intelligence on what everyone's thinking. Because I think the nightmare is you get to 12 and all six are gone. And then what are we doing? Are we taking a corner? Who we hate? His medicals. So the answer is no. All right, well, then what are we doing? All six are gone. Bob, give me a.
- [16:41]
Bob Sturm
The phone rings and someone wants a receiver, you know?
- [16:44]
George Dunham
Yeah. I mean. Cause the next defensive player after the big six, if we take Jermod McCoy completely out of it, is now we're back at Dylan Thienaman and Akeem Mezador and Keldrick Falk and I guess Avian Terrell, who I don't fancy nearly as much as some. And so I guess the point is these are all the names you were hoping to pick from. From at 20, and now they're sitting there at 12. And. And. And I think. I think you'd be terrified, you being. The Cowboys would be terrified with that scenario. And that's why they Might get a little antsy and panic and send their third round pick away to make sure they don't get stuck. And, and by the way, I don't want to give the third round pick away. I think that can be very useful as well. But of the two choices, do I hold 92 or do I use 92 to make sure I don't get cleaned out at 12? Honestly, I think you probably got to spend 92 to make. If you get to nine, the first four are cleaned out. And you think Kansas City is going to take delane from lsu. Now you've got to figure out how do I get through the Bengals and the Dolphins with Caleb Downs and how do I get through there without either of them taking a phone call for somebody trading up because they know I'm panicking. So this is why. This is why, as much as I don't like it, I probably would ultimately do a deal with Kansas City if that's available. 12 and 92 to get me to 9. Just because, I mean, Miami is going to have every Cowboy rival saying, well, of course they're going to take Caleb Downs. Do we want them or don't we? We can jump the Cowboys. The Dolphins will take a trade if we just give them a third because they, they're, they're trying to grab top 100 picks right now. They're rebuilding. They don't care if we screw the Cowboys. So, so that, that's where I would probably jump. You know, that's probably where I would get in there.
- [18:53]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. If you put it specifically for Caleb Downs, number nine. Yeah. Then I would. You could probably get 92 out of me and thinking, okay, yeah,
- [19:04]
George Dunham
so, so, you know, before we, before we step away for a moment or whatever, I want to have the Caleb Downs conversation with you briefly. And the, the tenor of the conversation is basically this. Are you comfortable taking a safety at 12 knowing that you sort of already signed your best free agent is a safety? Second free agent was a safety as well, and you kept Malik Hooker. I think Caleb Downs instantly becomes your best safety. So I don't want to cloud the discussion or lead the witness, but I'm just making sure that we're on the same page that walking away with a, a stud safety is, is something we're both in favor of.
- [19:57]
Bob Sturm
Well, when you put it like that, I think in looking at it from the Cowboys perspective, I think they would look at it as, look, we'll give up capital to move up and get someone like, like Styles. But yeah, I think we fortified safety with, with a big contract for Thompson and Locks going to play. We've got Hooker coming back, so we've got enough there. I personally, if, if I'm in the war room, I say this guy's going to change everything for you back there. I think immediately, I think he gets on the field and, and I like what you and Dominic were talking about more than a month ago, that, you know, you can play him so many different places. And yeah, he's more than just a safety. He's a guy who can cover, he's a guy who can tackle. Yeah, it's. And now we get to this hybrid discussion. That man, he's, he's really not just playing, he's playing three different positions.
- [21:10]
George Dunham
Right? History of the safety in the last, let's say 10 years in the draft. Let's, let's, let's play that.
- [21:20]
Bob Sturm
Not good.
- [21:21]
George Dunham
Well, no, it's not. It's not that. It's not good. It's that safeties very seldom go in the top five anymore. In fact, I want to say the last time a safety went in the top five. Do you have a guess?
- [21:39]
Bob Sturm
Safety in the top five. No, I, because I can't remember one.
- [21:44]
George Dunham
I'm gonna say it was Eric Barry of Tennessee went fifth in 2010 to the Chiefs.
- [21:52]
Bob Sturm
Okay.
- [21:53]
George Dunham
And before that, Sean Taylor went fifth to Washington from Miami.
- [21:59]
Bob Sturm
That's a long time ago.
- [22:01]
George Dunham
So we're talking 20 years. You know, 15 years. In the case of Barry, I would
- [22:06]
Bob Sturm
say Caleb Downs is different than any safety of the last 10 years. Overstatement.
- [22:15]
George Dunham
No, I don't hate it. I, I don't hate it. The one, the one exception would be Jamal Adams, I think was a recent safety that went very high. The LSU kid who I believe the jets drafted. Or did the Seahawks draft him and trade him to the Jets. Now, now my head's spinning. I wanted. No, the Seahawks traded for him from the jets, right?
- [22:36]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, that's right.
- [22:37]
George Dunham
I'm not crazy. Right.
- [22:38]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [22:38]
George Dunham
So, so anyway, so you have him, but then you look at the last, let's say five or ten years. Now you're looking at what Kyle Hamilton went like 14. Derwin James I think went 17. Safeties for whatever reason, do not go super high in the NFL draft. I'm not suggesting that we need to do anything with that because we pick 12th and you just, you just kind of deal with that how you do. But just, just be aware that safety is what the kids will call a non premium position. And it like running back, like run and hit linebacker. There is a nervousness that when you pick this high you should be picking the big five power positions. Quarterback, left tackle, wide receiver, edge rusher, or lockdown corner. And, and so I don't, I'm not saying we should be affected by that. I'm just saying that will be the conversation. When people start to start to have the discussion of did you, did you draft wisely? You know, this, these, these will be the conversations. Now we always have the right to, to tell, you know, to get the noise out of there and just ignore it and, and who cares? But you know, this is, this is the world we live in where you're going to get second guessed. And Earl Thomas went pick 14. I'm looking at Kenny Vaccaro, another Longhorn, 15, Malcolm Jenkins, 14 from Ohio State. So, so anyway, top 10 is a little rich for safeties for most people, but you're not in the top 10. You might have to trade up there to get Caleb Downs. I would say if you trade to nine, that's your target. If you trade to six, your target is Sonny Styles.
- [24:28]
Bob Sturm
Would you trade up to nine for Reuben Bain?
- [24:34]
George Dunham
See now this is one of our listener questions. We're going to wrap up with some questions. Well, no, but the question from Stu is are you worried about the short arms of Reuben Bain and the fact that there might even be the discussion of some character stuff. I know Joshua wanted us to talk about the character and Stu want us to talk about the arm length of Reuben Bane. There are some things with Ruben Bane that are very, very impressive. I think personally, George, I would not trade up to get Ruben Bane. Okay, I would, I would, I would probably happily take him at 12, but I would probably not spend extra capital to get him. There are questions about him. Traits wise. I would ask the question why a guy who's 21 looks like he's 30. But, but that's, that's not really good draft evaluation. George. That's just, that's just one.
- [25:30]
Bob Sturm
You're saying he has a face? Is that what you're saying?
- [25:33]
George Dunham
He has either old face or maybe it's a hairline. As somebody who knows about 20 year old hairlines, I, you know, I'm just, just keep an eye out for that. But personally I would not trade up for him. I would trade up for, I would trade up for David Bailey at the right price, Reese Styles and at the right price Downs. I would not trade up for Bain or Delane. I don't think.
- [25:57]
Bob Sturm
Okay, let's get to another. And I will say this, and I Think this is different because I heard of a couple of guys when I complained to person that I know at the Star, why didn't you take this guy last year, the 25 draft? He said, well, he didn't really fit their profile. And that came to just what you were talking about. Personality traits, character. And I think it so many. The perception as well, Jerry doesn't care who that. He doesn't care about that anymore. If you show him a great. I think there are exceptions to this, but I think it's a, it's a bigger factor now and I think this applies to shoddy. But I, I even noticed even before that, I'm telling you, I have noticed a difference in being around this team in the last five or six years as far as quality guys. I just think, I think. I'm not saying they're all great football players, but I think that was one thought of, hey, let's get. Let's. Let's make that character really matter and what we identify as good traits. And Schottenheimer talked about that last week about how he likes to sit down and talk to someone about more than just football. And I think he finds out a lot about the personality of a player. And I don't know, I think that matters more to them now than it did a few years back. And I think it's even more heightened under shotty.
- [27:31]
George Dunham
Yeah, the old right kind of guy. Right.
- [27:33]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, our kind of guy. And I will say that's one of the things that I like about Schottenheimer is in addition to the things we've mentioned, I think he is trying to come up with this is the profile of our team. We want this, this, this and this. And I don't know if they've had that. I think they've been kind of all over the road when it comes to things like that over the last 30 years.
- [27:56]
George Dunham
No, I do too. And that's what gets me excited about some of these players in this draft is I do think you do have some, I don't want to say culture setter because you're asking a lot of a 21 year old to come in here and sort of change how the huddle thinks. And maybe that's why you got Quinn and Williams and Kenny Clark is because they're sort of your culture setters. And I know they love overshown. So maybe you're just asking the young guys to just fit in at first and then grow into something bigger than that if they can. But yeah, I think that has to go into it. I don't think you want to ask questions of, does this guy love the game? Does he play for the right reasons? And, and by the way, sometimes that's why you should look at the bluest of blue blood programs and, and just know that if you can survive for Saban or if you can survive for Kirby Smart or if you can go through that Ohio State, you know, machine, well, then they're probably weeding out guys who are half in the boat. Right. I mean, that, that's, that's a theory is these guys, you know, and obviously there are exceptions to every rule. I mean, some guys don't have to, you know, button up their shirt all the way because they're that good. But, you know, most of the time, if you can make it through one of those football factories, you're in it for the right reasons. So, so I, you know, that's where maybe we have to be a little, A little cautious.
- [29:27]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [29:28]
George Dunham
By taking, by taking somebody who might have just got a big check to play at a school that does not have a reputation of turning out quality dudes. So gets it. It gets real fuzzy because we have priors and, and we have our own personal beliefs. So. So you have to, you have to be real cautious when you start, you know, trying to figure out is this guy a good dude and will he be a good cowboy. But it certainly doesn't hurt to, to try to find that type of guy. Sure.
- [30:00]
Bob Sturm
All right, so that's the, that's the question of 12. Let's talk about number 20 because there's scenarios there that could precipitate some sort of trade and, and how it fits into a top 20 on the consensus board, which you wrote about this week. And I think that's really interesting because that's the top 20 is right where the Cowboys are there at 20.
- [30:28]
George Dunham
That's right.
- [30:29]
Bob Sturm
Let's do that. Next on Football Friends.
- [30:33]
George Dunham
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Bob Sturm
Mmm.
- [30:53]
George Dunham
So good. Get your fiber with Quaker Shop. Quaker's good source of fiber products at a store near you.
- [31:01]
Bob Sturm
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- [33:36]
George Dunham
Well, okay, I love that you're bringing this guy up because and I don't know how deep you are in the weeds with like Cowboys Twitter. In fact, I think you're smarter than very shallow. You don't live online and so you don't necessarily know about the There is, there is another conversation out there if you seek it, which is Cowboys Twitter and there are, there are pet cats there and there are guys that people have turned on. And I'll just tell you, Caldrick Falk is one of those names that if we say this is our guy, the, the cowboy fan, the majority, I'm not trying to paint everybody with the same brush, but I do think Cowboy fans have turned on Keldrick Falk because the influencers seem to generally agree that his 2025 makes them very, very nervous. So, so Keldrick Falk. Let's, let's have a quick conversation about him. 662-90-66290 and 20 years old. So this is a man child. Think, think 20 year old Calais Campbell. And I know that is very high territory to, to mention a guy. So I just, I want to say let's, let's say his ceiling is Calais Campbell because that, that is one rare dude. I think Calais is, you know, is a fringe hall of famer probably when it's all said and done. So he's been unbelievable. But anyway, 66290 that's on the other side of the mountain from like somebody like Cassius. How when you talk about edge, I don't know that he's actually an edge because most of the edges that we talk about are Arvel Reese's 64240. Our Mason Thomas is 612 49. Let's see Cassius, how is 6225 5. TJ Parker is 63265. So all these guys are what you would say are somewhere between Micah Parsons size and Demarcus ware size, which means somewhere between 63 and 65 and 250 and 265. And now I just told you the Keldrick Falk 66290 so with that comes way more size and way more power, but also way less twitch and way less bendiness. And so if you are running the former Cowboys defense, Keldrick Falk might not be a great fit because he's not bendy and he's not running the arc and going around a tackle and sacking a guy. What this guy is, is like Calais Campbell is he's blowing up your tackle and blowing up run plays and getting interior rush and he's not really an edge as much as he is like a five technique, like a two gapping defensive end who's more run first, power first than twitch. So I say all that to say that actually sounds like Christian Parker's guy. Right.
- [36:56]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [36:56]
George Dunham
You know, when we talk about, you know, not like Max crosby is like 258 George, this guy's 290 and he's 20 years old. And, and you, if you go back to his 20, 24 tape when he was 19, here's a guy with seven sacks, 11 tackles for loss, and he's a force in the paint. I'm not positive why he looked less of himself in 2025. In fact, the games I did were Baylor, Oklahoma and Alabama. And I say that because Baylor was in August and the Oklahoma game was in September. And I thought in both of those games he looked really, really good. And by the time we says that
- [37:39]
Bob Sturm
season went on, their defense looks really good. Back in the early part of the
- [37:43]
George Dunham
season, that's, that's very important to say because as the season went on,
- [37:51]
Bob Sturm
he
- [37:52]
George Dunham
was there, but he didn't look like an impact guy anymore. And so, so the concerns, just to, just to recognize that Cowboys Twitter is not completely on crack. I, I would say he had 1500 sacks at Auburn and there are stretches where he goes two months between sacks and that's not great. It isn't everything. But 30 quarterback pressures in all of 2025 probably needs an explanation.
- [38:23]
Bob Sturm
15 sacks?
- [38:27]
George Dunham
No, no, no. He had two sacks in 2025.
- [38:29]
Bob Sturm
Okay. What was the 1500 number?
- [38:32]
George Dunham
He had 1500 snaps at Auburn.
- [38:34]
Bob Sturm
Okay, I thought you said snacks and
- [38:37]
George Dunham
he ate 1500 snacks.
- [38:39]
Bob Sturm
Maybe at 290 he had 1500 snacks. I've had that many snacks in the last year.
- [38:45]
George Dunham
Yeah, I feel like I'm on pace for that this year as well. His technique looks a little raw for a five star guy and he may not have a big time NFL explosion, but the thing is he's a bit of a mystery because imagine what age 23 might look like for him. So, so I say all that. That's a lot of information for people. But I do think it's, it's not a bad idea for us to drill down on somebody that a lot of people have just ruled out because, you know, the conversation is we don't want this guy. And I actually am on your side where if I'm sitting there at 20 and the Cowboys walk away with Keldrick Falk, I actually think that's the type of guy that you said no to, OSA Odigizua, because he may not fit the, the size, but this guy might actually be that dude. And, and maybe with Quinn and Kenny Clark and, and a guy like Keldrick Falk, you feel like you're really cooking.
- [39:47]
Bob Sturm
Is it realistic because he's not in their 30 visit list? Does that matter to you at all?
- [39:55]
George Dunham
No, I think 30 visit is an indicator of day two and day three more for the Cowboys. But day one, day one, I think between Senior Bowl, Pro day, combine. I don't need a 30 visit because I've, I've talked to this guy. I know the guy. You know, we've been, we've been looking at a guy like Keldrick Falk if you're the Cowboys since the last draft. And there's, it's very possible that they also don't want to show their cards. So, so I, I'm not ruling this guy out. And, and if, if they ended up with him, I would not be upset. I just have questions on why did you fade so bad in 2025? Because at the start of the year, George, he was being talked about in the top five. Um, in fact, there's a couple of guys like that. Peter woods from Clemson, TJ Parker from Clemson, Caldrick Falk from Auburn. If you go back and you look at like Brugler's first list, like the week after last draft, all three of those guys were probably top 10 and maybe top five. And you know, they just did not have the 2020 fives that they needed to have and so they dropped down. That does not mean we should close the casket on a guy who is 20 years old and has played 1500 snaps in the SEC like his. He is going to school right now to be a big time NFL player and you're going to get them as a Rookie at age 21, and that's pretty exciting to me. So when you look at 20, what's interesting about that spot in the draft is those same names that you might have been looking at at 12 are probably mostly still there because I do think between picks 10 and 20, I think you're going to see seven offensive guys go roughly. You know, I can't predict the entire draft, but that's how I see it right now, George, is that this is where your offensive linemen are going. And I've, I'm digging through them right now. And the Penn State kid whose name I butcher, the, the, the Georgia tackle, Monroe Freeling. If he makes it to the Cowboys pick, I would be shocked. Spencer Fano from Utah. So a bunch of offensive linemen and then a bunch of wide receivers. So this is Carnell Tate, probably top 10. Jordan Tyson, probably top 10. Makai Lemon, probably top 15. Then the tight end, Kenyon Sadiq from Oregon, probably top 20. Kaden Proctor, I've been assured, will be gone by Detroit. And I think Detroit is picked at 17, so Omar Cooper from Indiana is another one. So you could see that the Cowboys picks at 12 and the Cowboys picks at 20 might be very similar, especially if you get Caleb Downs at 12, and then the only other guy to go on defense might be Dylan Tieneman Thieman. Oh, who is also a safety. So the point is, you. Well, we got your safety. I don't care if Minnesota takes them at 18. So could you get to 20 and still have a shot at Mezador Falk? And I suppose we could start shopping for corners there as well. But if. If Mezador or Falk are there at 20. So I'm pretty excited about that as well. And then, of course, the conversation will be more so in the public of. Wait a minute, Bob, you'd rather have Falk or Mazador than Jacob Rodriguez or C.J. allen? My linebackers. My next linebackers. And. And I will say that this is the conversation of do you take best player available or best defensive player available, or do you draft need? And if you draft need, then we're back to C.J. allen and Jacob Rodriguez at 20, which, by the way, I'm totally fine with. I am not a. I do not insist and stop my feet if my team does, you know, stretches to fill a starting position or do I. Or do I grab, you know, one of those big dogs like Falk or
- [44:24]
Bob Sturm
Mazador, or if you're not just in love with who is there, or you're thinking, you know, at least one of these guys, two of these guys may be there at the end of the first round. What about this proposed trade that is out there, rumored trade that the Cowboys slide back with Miami?
- [44:48]
George Dunham
They're doing.
- [44:48]
Bob Sturm
They would do this deal with Miami, slide back from 20 to 30, and they would also get number 75 overall. Number 151 overall. I kind of like that. Especially if. Let's just say, how about this scenario? What if you were. Well, I guess you wouldn't be able to do that. Let's. I'll leave 12 out of it for right now. Let's say you're happy with what you got at 12, whatever that is. Okay.
- [45:18]
George Dunham
And then.
- [45:19]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, because in this scenario, you would need this pick probably. Well, maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you gave up. Maybe you went up and you gave up 92 overall. And you say you did that deal with Kansas City. You went from 12 to nine and you got downs or someone that you really wanted there at 9. So here you are at 20 and you're thinking, boy, it'd be nice to pick up something. Well, okay, how about trade down to 30, 75 is maybe where you, that's more value than 92. And then you're at 151 and CJ Allen, J Rod, they are there at number 30.
- [46:02]
George Dunham
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's an amazing trade. I think I, I think you would do that all day long. And if I may get greedy, let's stick at 12 and let's have downs slide to us and then we drop to 30, we get our linebacker, and now we've got 75 and 92 to do some damage in round three. That would be my dream scenario. I think you just nailed it. You just knocked it out of the park. We're going to get Caleb Downs at 12, we're going to get Jacob Rodriguez or CJ Allen at 30, and then we've got two third rounders and we can go grab a running back even. We can go grab, you know, some offensive help. We can, we can look at our offensive line again or we can keep pounding that defense at 75 and 92. And I think at 75, there are some good slot corners and some secondary, some tier 2 or tier 3 corners that we can grab as well. So I think our takeaway from this sort of draft dress rehearsal we're doing this week would be the idea that we want quantity in the top 100. That's why that one trade that's out there, 12, 20 and 92 to get to three to take, like text David Bailey, bro, I'm cleaned out. Then all the way till the end of round four. I can't, I can't do that. I, I, I know it would be fun. I know the Red Raiders would be shooting their guns all over the place and, and you would have a legit dog with, with Ezraku on the other side. And you'd be pretty fired up about your two bookends that you've just taken in the last two drafts who are both super young and super twitchy and, you know, just all of that. But I think over anything else, I, if I can get four pieces out of the top 100, I've got to do it.
- [48:04]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, no, I like that one too. Yeah. And we'll see. And I think that would be a, that's almost what I anticipate. The Cowboys stay at 12, but may be able to do something at 20 to give them some additional picks. And that would be that scenario there that you brought up if you don't have to give up 92. And now that would be. Gosh, quick math. Yeah. Four picks in the top 92. That's pretty darn good.
- [48:34]
George Dunham
That's, that's what you need, man. That's what we really need right now because we're not one player away, in my opinion. I would love it if it was true. But let's just be reasonable here and, and understand the realities of, of where we, where we live today. Sports, George.
- [48:50]
Bob Sturm
And we'll see who. How many teams are in love with downs. But your scenario about it is a safety history. You can learn from history, Bob.
- [48:59]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [48:59]
Bob Sturm
It shows you that that's pretty unusual for a safety to go top five, top eight, maybe he does slide to number 12. And there's, there's going to be more than one surprise just in the top 10, the top 12 picks and someone that we're not. We, we can't tell you who it is, but it's going to be one or two players that slides and you're going to be thinking, wow, what a, what a gift that is given. The Cowboy needs that, that players there at 12.
- [49:27]
George Dunham
Yeah. And you know, honestly, as, as I go through this process and everyone's got their own way of doing it, but I, I grab a different player every day. And as I've said, the first 45 days I did this, so the first 45 players, 45 of them were on defense. And so that's great. I feel prepared to draft defense, but I also feel like I was in a dark room about the offense. And now in the run up to the draft, in the final month, I'm trying to go through about 30 offensive players. And as I do, wow, this guy looks like a top ten pick. Wow, this guy looks like a top five pick, you know, there. So there are guys there that look really special. And each offensive guy I find that looks like a top 12 pick. George. I get excited because that means the defensive guys gets pushed closer and closer to the Cowboys. So you actually are cheering on draft night every time an offensive player goes, because that pushes one of our big six right into our laps and that should make us happy. So when I'm looking at these offensive linemen, these wide receivers, even Kenyan Sadiq, the tight end from Oregon, even Jeremiah Love, the running back from Notre Dame, I love these guys. And I do ask myself, man, if Jeremiah loves in there at 20, don't I kind of have to do it. Or Kenyan Sadiq. Don't I at least have to think
- [50:53]
Bob Sturm
about being there at 20? I think that would be a miracle, wouldn't it, if he dropped all the way to number 20?
- [51:02]
George Dunham
I do, too. But then what is the miracle? Does the miracle mean that you grab three picks from somebody else and get out of there, or do you keep them for yourself?
- [51:11]
Bob Sturm
And he is really, really good.
- [51:14]
George Dunham
Yeah,
- [51:18]
Bob Sturm
three picks for him. But see, I think, yeah, you could. You could get some really capital coming. Good capital coming back to you.
- [51:25]
George Dunham
Well, you. Yeah. And I've just gone by the three picks that you. Oh.
- [51:29]
Bob Sturm
Like it was something comparable.
- [51:31]
George Dunham
30, 75 and 151. I'm not saying Miami wants a running back, but the, the other thing about 30 for 20 is that was also somebody's proposal of how to get Jordan Brooks to the Cowboys. The Miami linebacker is we give you 20, you give us 30 and Jordan Brooks, and then we've got our linebacker and we can still go to 30 and do something else. So that's, that's another thing that again, the Internet gives me lots of ideas to chase my tail.
- [52:06]
Bob Sturm
Most of them bad, probably.
- [52:08]
George Dunham
Yeah. Yeah, most of them.
- [52:09]
Bob Sturm
All right, so we've had some questions to the musers. The podcast cowboys edition. Bob. Let's answer some of those coming up next.
- [52:23]
George Dunham
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- [53:18]
Bob Sturm
Okay, so we throwing a lot at you today with what could or may not happen in the NFL draft. And to the Cowboys at number 12 and number 20, what's everyone saying out there? Bob, we actually have some questions this week.
- [53:34]
George Dunham
Yeah, we do. And I think this is, this is a good one here. And this is from our friend Gavin. And Gavin asks best player available versus roster need. Is it actually a real philosophy in Dallas or is it just Jerry speak? And he talks about how Shadi has said the Cowboys would draft natural draft pure draft natural draft pure. But they have glaring holes at linebacker, cornerback and edge. If you have 12 and 20, do you think the Cowboys have the discipline to pass on a need? If a player at a non priority position a la Jeremiah Love is right there and clearly the best player on your board, what do you think?
- [54:15]
Bob Sturm
I think it's a different thing at 12 than a 20. If it's a 20, I think you take, I think you take Jeremiah Love. I just think he's going to be awesome.
- [54:24]
George Dunham
And yeah, especially, especially if you're like, if you're actually doing a fair evaluation, I think you could say Jeremiah Love is a top five player in the draft. And if you're also being fair, I think you would say Jacob Rodriguez and CJ Allen are probably not top 25 guys. And so you're there at 20 and you have your linebacker or you have a running back. Are you willing to take the 25th best player instead of the 5th best just because of your immediate need? That seems really, really unwise, doesn't it?
- [54:59]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Now what is the, what's the number of picks that is more valuable than the position, you know, need for best player? At least there, I think best player wins out. If it's a. You're talking two or three, then I think position wins out two or three spots.
- [55:24]
George Dunham
Yeah, I think, I think you're right. Joshua. We touched on this a little earlier but, but I want to get his question in. Joshua Guerra asks what is the worst case scenario if Reese Downs, Styles, Bain, Bailey and Delayed are all gone. So he's got all six gone and the trade packages aren't great with teams knowing you're more than likely going defense, what do you do?
- [55:51]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, if the trade things aren't. I think it is the very generic best player available. And if that is, I was going to say even a wide receiver, I think I would do it. I think though it's hypothetical, so I guess got to answer the question. I think I would just go best player available. Almost, almost. Regardless of position,
- [56:19]
George Dunham
I would say at number 12, if I can't trade out and the big six are gone. This would be called a reach, but I would still do it. I would take Dylan Thienaman. Okay, I don't love it, but I also don't hate it.
- [56:36]
Bob Sturm
And that's not though you're talking a matter of five to six spots from where he's projected. So he's a top 20 player for sure.
- [56:44]
George Dunham
And yeah, he's a top 20 guy. Okay. So that's. That's what I would do. Let's do a couple more.
- [56:50]
Bob Sturm
But even if Carnell Tates there.
- [56:56]
George Dunham
See, are you not a huge.
- [56:58]
Bob Sturm
I'm just going to.
- [57:00]
George Dunham
I prefer Jordan Tyson.
- [57:02]
Bob Sturm
Okay.
- [57:03]
George Dunham
I think Tate's very nice, but if I had one wide receiver, I would take the Arizona State kid. But I'm going to be stubborn and say I'm not taking offense at number 12 no matter what.
- [57:13]
Bob Sturm
Okay, that's fair.
- [57:14]
George Dunham
That's very stubborn, by the way, and probably proves that I'm a. I'm not somebody you should hire as my general manager because. And I'm probably lying if it's Fernando Mendoza, by the way, I want to at least put that out there. A guy who claims to be named Jesse Jackson asks George, do the Cowboys suck or what?
- [57:37]
Bob Sturm
Oh, it's a question from Philly this week.
- [57:41]
George Dunham
He says, I realize teams have to be flexible, but what would be the picks where you guys would give the Cowboys an A plus?
- [57:48]
Bob Sturm
Man, I'm not a huge fan of draft day grades, but I will say that under our scenario where somehow downs is available at number 12 and they. And they get him because I don't think there's any chance Reese or Styles are there. I just think that's. There's no way, right? There's no way one of those guys.
- [58:09]
George Dunham
I don't 12, I don't believe so
- [58:12]
Bob Sturm
let's say that happens though and you get him and you're able to work some sort of deal at 20 where you trade down and you still get a linebacker like C.J. allen or Jacob Rodriguez and you're adding another third round pick, then I'd say, man, for what the Cowboys needed and from where they were, that would be a plus.
- [58:36]
George Dunham
Yeah. Yeah. I do think the trade back. If you can pull it off and still get the guys you're looking at, that would be a delight. I would also say in this week's sturm stack Monday, I did three different variations. I kind of did a mock and I did two simulators and the mock came up with Caleb Downs and Jeremiah Love and I would give that an A. Gosh. And then simulations went like this. I got Mansoor Delane and Akeem Mazador, and I even was able to trade back, which sounds ridiculous, and add a pick with Delane. So I would say that feels like an A plus. And then on the third one, I got Reuben Bain at 12:12 and Monsoon Delane somehow fell to 20, and I would give that at A plus. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of draft scenarios where I actually do like the outcomes, but I will also admit that there are a few scenarios where I kind of hate all the choices. So it's one of those drafts, right?
- [59:41]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And I like to grade the next season. And you give me at least three impactful defensive players for the Cowboys this year on the draft and I'll give you an A. Pl.
- [59:52]
George Dunham
Yeah. Jay wants to know, is there any player that would be worth both of our firsts? And technically the answer I think would be yes. But I also don't think I'm trading up that high. I will trade you 12 and 92 or 20 and 92 to go up and get somebody I want. I don't think I would trade up 12 and 20 to get one player because that feels like I am repeating my mistakes, George, of putting all of my assets into like six guys on this roster. And I gotta. I gotta start diversifying my portfolio and making sure my team can handle one injury in a season. Right?
- [60:42]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Orville Reese and David Bailey are really tempting if you want to move up that far. There's that scenario. The Cowboys would move up in the top five to get David Bailey. You mentioned that one earlier. And it's really, really tempting, but I say no. I still think you can get two impactful players in the first round defensive players for this team if you stay right where you are or even if you manipulate those and move down a little bit from either spot, as we were talking about earlier.
- [61:17]
George Dunham
Okay, last one. This is from Chris. Chris Noyes. By all accounts, the Cowboys have three primary needs, edge, linebacker, and corner. The Cowboys have two first round picks to fill those three needs. Jadavion Clowney played for the Cowboys last year, and by all accounts, the Cowboys thought he was great and he liked it here. The plan was to resign him until we hired the new defensive coordinator. Since the Cowboys have the ability to fill two of those three needs in the draft, why wouldn't they resign Clowney? Fair question. I think. Personally, I think the job of Jadavian Clowney has been given to Rashawn Gary. Now, that doesn't mean the Cowboys are completely out on Max Crosby, and therefore it shouldn't mean that they're completely out on Jadavian Clowney. So the idea that this organization should have more than two edges is obvious. Now, they resigned Sam Williams, so we believe they have three. And they've claimed that Marist Liafou is an edge and that would be four. But I think Clowney and Crosby are both guys we should keep an eye on at way different price points. If Clowney doesn't have a job by training camp, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Cowboys add him at a reasonable price. And maybe they're waiting to add him to see how the Raiders feel about Max Crosby. Once we clear the draft.
- [62:50]
Bob Sturm
I think there is a potential trade out there. I mean, obviously the teams are always talking, but maybe I'm just reading too much into the repeated statement of, and we're not done yet by Schottenheimer.
- [63:05]
George Dunham
Right.
- [63:05]
Bob Sturm
It could be just that may have been his way of really trying to pump up people like me to go, hey, look, let's pay attention to the Cowboys.
- [63:15]
George Dunham
But no, I think, get your little pennant out.
- [63:19]
Bob Sturm
But no, I think they're. They may be working on something to the fact that they feel like it's a decent possibility and you may not see it until draft day. And maybe Mad Max is still part of that.
- [63:34]
George Dunham
And the thing about it, George, is like we've said, there is a reason to chill from about April 1st until you clear the draft. And the reason to chill is twofold. One, any free agents out there, you sacrifice your rights to the following year's compensatory picks for guys you've lost. If you bring in guys, it cancels it out. And so once you clear the draft, you no longer have to cancel out the guys you've lost with guys you bring in and lose comp picks. So you can keep the comp picks if you don't sign your guys until later. Now there's a risk. The risk is those guys are gone. And so you have to play your cards right there. The other thing that I think we don't think about enough, but we should, when we have these talks, is if you can clear the draft, then teams stop asking for your 2026 draft picks and they start asking for your 2027 draft picks. So if you're saying we would trade a number one for Max Crosby, but we don't want to trade our next number one or our 28 number, you know, or we don't want to trade this 20, 261 because we want to get Caleb Downs with that, but we would trade a future one for Max Crosby. Sure. And so once you clear the draft, you've used your picks, you can't trade those anymore. And now that rolls over and teams are more likely to do that once we. So the waiting game should not make us too nervous. Remember, the George Pickens trade happened after the draft, and there are things out there. And also remember, they probably have some ideas for veterans in trade if they don't get the draft picks they want. And so this is what smart teams do. We know the Cowboys aren't always a smart team, but we also know there are some smart people there. So they're probably planning on the next phase of the off season. But right now, everybody is just worried about doing their drafting.
- [65:39]
Bob Sturm
Tom Petty once said the waiting is the hardest part.
- [65:43]
George Dunham
Bob, that's trauma.
- [65:47]
Bob Sturm
That's just a little anecdote for the draft.
- [65:51]
George Dunham
Okay, I heard you. Next week. Next week you're doing the whole show as Berman, which I can't wait for. That's going to be great.
- [65:58]
Bob Sturm
It's going to drive everyone insane. But, yeah, the wait is almost over, Bob. We're just a couple of weeks out from the draft, and man, love talking about it with you. You've put so much into it, and I just kind of sit back and go, yeah, Bob, I think you're right about that. I really do.
- [66:16]
George Dunham
Well, unfortunately, report card day is coming, and then we can see all the stuff I was wrong about. But it's fun and I love football. Friends, It's a highlight of my week, and we only have, like, one more big one here before we do some drafting, so we got to get to it.
- [66:33]
Bob Sturm
Okay, let's get to it. Thanks to Peter Welton for producing us again this week, and we'll talk to you next time here on Football Friends. Nine one one.
- [66:50]
George Dunham
What's your emergency? You need to send the police. He's gonna kill me. He killed all the others. Who killed the others, ma'?
- [66:58]
Bob Sturm
Am?
- [66:59]
George Dunham
He found me. Prime Mate. Now streaming.