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- [00:03]
George Dunham
Hey, it's time for another edition of Football Friends, the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. It's George Dunham and Bob Sturm. The week after the draft, we've had a chance to digest it. Bob poured his heart and soul into the 2026 NFL Draft. And Bob, for the first time, and I don't know how long, I think the consensus not only among Cowboy fans, but nationwide, they're like, clapping their hands, thinking, okay, the Cowboys had a really good draft. And even if it's just, you get some okay players after what they did in the first round. The arrival of Caleb Downs, Bob, the guy. As we talked for the last couple of months, would any of the big six defensive players be there for the Cowboys at 12? Well, they move up to 11 to get Caleb Downs, the safety from Ohio State. And as we all know, he's so much more than just a safety.
- [01:10]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I mean, it's unbelievable. They might have won the draft. George. I realize we'll see about that. And I also realize that not only does the organization, but the. The Dallas Cowboys media machine probably gets carried away so often that there are many people perhaps rolling their eyes, asking to be shown the baby. The celebration ensues. But, but having said all that, it would be wild if the entire football universe was wrong about Caleb Downs. I shudder to think of any non top five draft pick in our recent decades who has had his tires pumped by everybody at this level who did not turn into a superstar. I feel like the Cowboys got their guy, they got our guy. I mean, how many weeks in a row did we say the pie in the sky is Caleb Downs?
- [02:11]
George Dunham
Sure.
- [02:12]
Bob Sturm
And somehow they got it and they didn't have to mortgage anything too insane at all. They almost stayed put. And I remember the, you know, the different, the different walkthroughs we did, the different dress rehearsals we did, and, and I, I think I said, if you have the number one pick in the draft, you're probably going Mendoza. And if you have the number two pick in the draft, you probably have to get one of those top edges in Bailey or Reese. But if you have your third choice, because this is where he was stacked on my board, number three overall, it would be a transformative Minka Fitzpatrick from Ohio State type guy. Christian Parker basically described him back in January at his opening press conference of what he needs to make this defense really sing. Is a. Is a safety who's a nickel but can cover like a corner corner, but tackle like a linebacker. They got Caleb Downs, and we do need to see it exist before we, before we try to put him in the ring of honor or Canton. But dog gone, man. It doesn't go like this very often. It usually goes one of two ways. Number one, you got kind of got to live with what the draft gives you. And you know, you, you, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit. And the other one is somebody falls in your lap that you never anticipated. And, boy, this is cool, but I don't know how it's all going to work. But you know, the CD Lamb thing, when they got them, they already had Amari Cooper, they already had Michael Gallup. I think they still had a chance to keep Randall Cobb, but here comes CD Lamb. Okay, that's cool. We got a wide receiver. Three. No, no, no, no. This is their Cooper flag type transformational. It's. It's on now that Christian Parker was hired, but Caleb Downs is sort of joined at the hip with Christian Parker of this new era of Cowboys defense. I mean, that's what we're talking about. That's the significance of this. So, yeah, no pressure, kid. Come in here and, and make us forget, you know, Cliff and Charlie and Darren Woodson. Get in here and be a legend right away, please.
- [04:23]
George Dunham
I want to circle back to Darren Woodson at some point in this, in this little podcast that we do.
- [04:29]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [04:30]
George Dunham
A couple of things that I was able to. To get out of the Star this week. Number one, and who knows, moving forward where a guy is, is going to finish. Like you said, let's not put him up in the ring of honor just yet.
- [04:44]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [04:45]
George Dunham
But this person said, I feel like time will prove we got the best player in this draft. In this draft. That that's the type of career that he's going to have. And we all know the. There's multiple forces that are ahead of that. The other thing is they were shocked that they had this opportunity after the Giants went offensive line with Mao Mauioa at 10. Holy smokes. Let's get on the phone with Miami to make sure that nobody else does because there was a lot of interest in and downs around the league, and they were able to do it just by giving up 2/5, then they would move down later and get 2/4. I love, I love all of that maneuvering, but I thought I found it interesting that the Cowboys themselves were freaking out of holy smokes, this could happen because I think they were pretty convinced if he didn't go in the top 10 that the Giants would take him there at 10.
- [05:53]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I mean, look, the whole reason we had the phrasing for a month of the Big six was because we were planning on not getting the big one. We were planning on how to best rationalize what Ruben Bane could mean or what Mansour Delane could mean. And you know, we just. You're just playing the percentages. You're. You're counting on teams in front of you to cooperate. You know, the Giants with Ma Noah. I gotta tell you, if I'm the Giants, I probably do the same thing. I. Yeah, I don't think that's a
- [06:27]
George Dunham
bad pick at all.
- [06:28]
Bob Sturm
No, no. In five years, maybe we'll all have a laugh at. Boy, the Giants are the Giants for a reason and the Cowboys pulled one over and wasn't that, you know, wasn't that a lucky day? But, but honestly, if you have a chance to take a dude on the offensive line versus a safety, come on.
- [06:47]
George Dunham
This.
- [06:48]
Bob Sturm
We're not going to, we're not going to tell you that taking safeties is generally the fastest track to a Super bowl because it's not. The question is this guy and the value add of intelligence, of green dot, of, of just almost being an on field coordinator and a culture changer and those last few things I described. George, it's incredibly ridiculous to even suggest a rookie is capable of that. So, so I do want to say two things about Caleb Downs. One, I do think he is transformational. I do think he can do everything you want and I do think he will be, be the type of guy that you want his face on billboards and you want to buy his jersey and all that sort of thing. But also too, we're going to have to give him 15 minutes to get his feet wet. We're going to have to try, especially as media, we're going to have to try to. Because this will happen. I mean, it's happening right now with Miko Ranton. I know that's a sick hockey reference for football friends, but, but just, just for everybody who has never heard that name before, he, he put on a legendary performance last year in the playoffs. This year he's been super quiet and right now he's getting beat up on social media. Like, why aren't you being our hero every night? I want you to do that again. He got an A. He made the mistake of getting an A plus in the first semester and now the parents expect an A every semester. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That was a once in a career, you know, situation. That's not every time. And so I imagine in September If Caleb Downs doesn't absolutely dominate games, people will already start the. I thought you guys promised this dude was, you know, the bee's knees. Yeah. And. And, and therefore, I realize there's no better hype machine in sports than the Dallas Cowboys football machine. Like, it's unbelievable how the network's fight over Cowboys games. George, we talk about this all the time, but now you. Now you insert a new main character into that. Like, honestly, the last time a new main character was this hyped at his arrival. Because don't forget, Michael Parsons was not hyped.
- [09:07]
George Dunham
No.
- [09:09]
Bob Sturm
Tony Romo was not hyped. Dak Prescott was not hyped. DeMarcus Ware was not hyped. Like, none of these guys came in with the palm leaves, you know, and just the. Oh, my gosh, this guy. You just. You wait till you see Caleb Downs. Like, like, who would be the last guy to be introduced like this? Can you think, like, what's the comparison?
- [09:29]
George Dunham
You're gonna have to go back to the 90s. And is it Emmett Smith? Emmett. Or Russell Maryland? Maybe, because he was the first overall pick.
- [09:38]
Bob Sturm
And that's true.
- [09:39]
George Dunham
And then I think they're. But even there, I remember it wasn't a consensus. Well, the cow was taking Russell Maryland with the first overall pick.
- [09:47]
Bob Sturm
But I suppose the bar was really high for Zeke. Maybe. Maybe I'm over my.
- [09:52]
George Dunham
Okay, that's a good one. Yeah, I think Zeke was. Whoa. Okay, they. They took a running back that high. But then you look at what he did and at Ohio State, and then he jumped right in here and that's. Cowboys were legit. Yeah.
- [10:06]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, that's a good one. But on defense, at a position like safety like this, this feels unprecedented.
- [10:13]
George Dunham
Yeah. Roy Williams didn't have this kind of. I mean, he had some hype, but he has. He also had his detractors of, man, can this guy cover in the NFL? You know, there's. I don't hear detractors about. About downs. So, yeah, it's. That's enough right there to make your draft. Just get that right and get a brain.
- [10:33]
Bob Sturm
His era.
- [10:34]
George Dunham
And yes, I think this is going to be the. The Caleb era. So then. But let's not discount. Okay, you've got two number one picks, so let's see how this works out at 20. And we mentioned they trade down three spots and they go get Malachi Lawrence from Central Florida. The only thing that. That sticks with me here is who they traded with in Philadelphia. You let the Eagles get up and everything that I've read On Makai Lemon is the receiver out of USC something. He may be the best receiver in this draft and it's almost like doing a deal with the devil of okay, this is really going to help us as the Cowboys pick up two fourth round picks. But now you're letting the Eagles get that A.J. brown replacement, assuming that he is eventually traded to New England here in a month or two. So yeah, he's done. Yeah, that's the only thing because you know more about this than. Than I do. But I love the upside of, of Lawrence and very productive player at Central Florida in the Big 12.
- [11:55]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, yeah, I know. I like Lawrence as well. I didn't like him this much but, but that doesn't mean anything to anybody except me. You know, as you go through the evaluation, you're just stacking guys like you think they should fall. And I think I had them in the 40s and, and it was clear the Cowboys disagreed with me very early on. And I know they're a member of their staff is a Central Florida guy. So just about every Cowboy they bring in, you can find a advocate on the staff that, you know, was with him at this place or with him at this place and sort of, you know, that was the Rashawn Gary was with Christian Parker. And you start going down the list of every single GU has an advocate every single place, it seems like. And so that shouldn't surprise us. They, they did good business here. I, you know, I think you and I probably both would have loved to see him trade down again because Buffalo kept trading back and that's kind of a cool thing to keep adding things, but in the end they trade with a team they always trade with. And I went back through all of like the draft trades with the Philadelphia Eagles and it's, it's crazy. In 2021, the mica trade was with the Eagles. The trade back in 2020, there was a trade up to get Tyler Biotish with the Eagles. In 2010, there was a trade up to get Sean Lee with the Eagles. In 2007, there was a trade up to get Anthony Spencer with the Eagles. In 2005, there was a trade up to get Chris Canty with the Eagles. And in 1997, there was a trade up to get David LaFleur with with the Eagles. So that's who they trade with. And it's weird to have your biggest rival as your biggest trade partner, but I mean, the last three trades the Cowboys have made, unless I'm forgetting one, and I probably am, but on my head It's Eagles, Niners, packers are your trade partners. And if you asked anybody on the street who your biggest rivals are, you, you might get those three answers back. And I can't explain it, it's certainly interesting bedfellows but, but it is what it is.
- [14:03]
George Dunham
And I was also told that they have heard since even draft day from a few other teams that followed them and say the next five picks that they had Lawrence as their guy. So one criticism and maybe that's with you with your evaluation having 30s, 40s somewhere on there. Apparently the Cowboys weren't the only team in the league that thought he was a first round talent.
- [14:32]
Bob Sturm
No, no, we need to stress that there were two, two other teams in the first round that were taking Malachi Lawrence from, from all of our findings and I believe one is, has been documented in San Francisco and I think another team behind them is an AFC team who was going to take him and then ended up trading out of the first. So you could probably figure that out if you, if you want to bad enough. But two different teams that indicated Malachi Lawrence was their guy and the Cowboys snatched him out before they could. So he wasn't going to last into the second or second round. And, and they love the guy and they sort of, it sort of leaked out that they loved the guy a couple days before the draft and with, with some of their sources and you know, I like. So if you pinpoint a guy and you say this is who we want to leave with and then you pick up two additional fourths to do it, I think we have to again say in their room they had a very, very good and smart process and now much like Caleb Downs, it's going to come down to can Malachi Lawrence be great? And, and I'd already love to ask where he ranks amongst the edges because obviously he's just a kid. But in 12 months, if you had to guess from now and you had Rashan Gary Donovan as a Raku and Malachi Lawrence and you had to stack your three edges, assuming all three are still Dallas Cowboys in 12 months from right now, how do you think that order will look?
- [16:08]
George Dunham
Wow, that's interesting. I've been looking at the two deep a lot and trying to project Isaac,
- [16:15]
Bob Sturm
just gonna say your guy James Houston, your, your guy Sam Williams. They, they, they've got a lot of edges. I'm assuming those guys aren't in the conversation, but I, they might be.
- [16:25]
George Dunham
They might be.
- [16:26]
Bob Sturm
But I wonder are what if, what
- [16:28]
George Dunham
if Williams finally makes that jump? You know that they always thought that he would. I. I think he could be in the picture. But to your point, though, I think that Malachi would have a chance to. Yeah. Be a big contributor this year. And again, going back to our expectations before the draft. Well, he better be. He better step right in and be ready to help this team here, you know, next year and certainly the year after.
- [16:55]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Some of us big jerks in the media will watch with great interest the careers of Akeem Mazador and the careers of Keldrick Falk to kind of see if they had their head screwed on, because they. They could have had either of those guys. They traded away from Mazador, they passed on Falk. TJ Parker was one who I really liked, but they wanted somebody at that position, and they picked Malachi Lawrence. And. And just to go back to him real fast, he's got all of the makings. Like, if you say in this draft, there are no elite pass rushers, like, nobody feels like Von Miller is in this draft or Miles Garrett or Will Anderson or somebody like that. So if we say, well, that guy doesn't live in this draft, but who will be the best edge out of this draft? It could be Malachi Lawrence over David Bailey or over Arvell Reese. We just don't know. We don't have a time machine. But. But if you're asking what makes a superior pass rusher, I'll go back to two things. Malachi Lawrence has a ton of which is athleticism. He has unbelievable testing, tested off the charts, RAS score that you wouldn't believe, generational. And then the other thing, you watch his tape. The dude has pass rush skills. He's got hand skills. He's got moves. He's got counters. So I realized the production was not a plus. He did not have 14 sacks. He had seven and a half. But I. Those two things, man, that's what you're looking for. Is he athletic enough and does he know what he's doing enough? And maybe, maybe the next step is just getting into the NFL program and the coaching and the weight room. And maybe he's on his path already and we just didn't know it. And so the Cowboys bet hard on him. And. And honestly, again, if I may go back to something we've talked about, which is the asset allocation of. Of the draft. Caleb Downs was 55% of your draft, and Malachi Lawrence was 30% of your draft. So combined, those two pieces of the pie were 85% of your draft weekend pie. And the rest, all the other names we haven't mentioned yet are 15%. And so as that would tell you, these are the two guys that need to be nothing worse than solid starters soon. And if one or both of them turns into an All Pro or a Pro Bowler, you're going to feel like you did great in 2026. And by the way, you needed to because your last several drafts have let you down.
- [19:42]
George Dunham
Okay, so what else did the Cowboys get in the draft? And who is Dee Winters? Sounds like a female jazz singer, but apparently a starter on next year's defense. Let's go there on football, friends. When we come back, the United States
- [20:00]
Bob Sturm
Soccer Federation presents the U.S. soccer Podcast.
- [20:04]
George Dunham
My name is David Goss and I'm
- [20:05]
Bob Sturm
joined by my co host Megan Klinenberg. And now we're giving people an 8
- [20:09]
George Dunham
inside look at the World Cup. Time's ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really stake their claim and they want to be on that World cup roster. There's no doubt about it. Hosting the World cup on home soil comes with its pressures. We're just really excited, just as the people are.
- [20:23]
Bob Sturm
The U.S. soccer Podcast, presented by Henkel
- [20:27]
George Dunham
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- [21:04]
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- [21:33]
George Dunham
Okay Bob, I don't know about you, but I have counted now that this team has six, at least six new starters on defense as they transform this thing. Otito Igbana, who is acquired from the Chargers ad.
- [21:54]
Bob Sturm
Let's hope he's good enough that we all learn his pronunciation.
- [21:57]
George Dunham
Is that right? Did I do it right?
- [21:59]
Bob Sturm
No, I'm. I'm not ripping you. I don't know how to say his name. And I hope to learn because he's so good that we'll hear it so many times.
- [22:09]
George Dunham
Do you think it's Otido, Bob? Is that what you're saying?
- [22:13]
Bob Sturm
I think it's Otito. I was more worried about the last name, but I'm here. I'm here for podcast. George.
- [22:21]
George Dunham
Okay. Rashawn Gary. No doubt. He starts at that one. Outside linebacker spot.
- [22:29]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [22:30]
George Dunham
D winners acquired from San Francisco.
- [22:34]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [22:34]
George Dunham
Did some digging on him. Productive player. And I'm thinking, well, why would San Francisco be ready to deal him, from what I understand, if everyone's back and playing next year and the return of Fred Warner and all that, that he was kind of odd man out in San Francisco and still seen as a productive player and a guy who, again, we keep going back to last year is an upgrade from the 25 defense.
- [23:04]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, every team's got a different situation. But just to be clear, with the 49ers situation, for those who care, Fred Warner was out almost all season with an injury. He's back. Dre Greenlaw went to Denver to get the big bucks, and Denver kind of regretted it after one year and now he's back. And so those were their two starters. And then they drafted Nick Martin in the third round of 2025 from Oklahoma State. And he had a very quiet red shirt year, but they feel much better about him. So those are three big investments for those two linebacker spots for the 49ers that they like to use. And so Winters was going to be their fourth linebacker. That doesn't mean they don't like him. They like him a lot. They played him over a thousand snaps and he played really well. And I went through the tape yesterday and I had a great time. George. I think. I think he's got a chance. I don't want to oversell him, but I also don't want to undersell him. You get them for very little. If we can go back to the pie. This was about 1% of their draft, was their fifth round pick, and they flipped that for what could be their starting middle linebacker. And you know, that's huge. If he can take that role on even for just one year, then you're going to feel great about what you did with your fifth round pick, because you're not going to find a starting middle linebacker in the fifth round. And that's why I think the timing of the trade's important, George, because they did the trade right about the time that they started getting cleaned out at linebacker. So. So if you go back and if you're watching coverage or listening on the ticket to coverage, you realize that the linebacker started falling off the board right there at 43. I want to say Jacob Rodriguez went at 43, Josiah Trotter at 46, Jake Golda at 51. And I want to say right around Josiah Trotter going is when they pulled the trigger with the Niners. And the reason that's important is at 46, you're only halfway to 92. So again, 45 more players are going to go before you pick C.J. allen. And so you're cheering for C.J. allen to fall. 45 more picks. There's no chance they realized that. So they got quickly on the phone with the Niners before Dee Winters went somewhere else. And I assume maybe the trade was even in place, that if we don't get our guy, you know, on day two, we want to do this deal with you, you know, and the Niners said, well, we'll hold them as long as we can, but let us know as soon as you know. Well, the Cowboys decided after about pick 46 or 47 that they're making a trade and we're all like, whoa, did they just trade up into the second round? And if they did, that will probably cost them their second round in 2027, but instead they send that fifth for Dee Winters and, and I'll just say the way he attacks downhill, the way he has speed, the way he reads out run plays, and really even the way he covers and, and I don't know if you were able to, to read my review of him, George, but there's a sequence with Philip Rivers that's awesome that you will really enjoy. Yeah. Because there are two plays in that Colts game, and Rivers got him the first time. And Winters was waiting for Rivers to try it again in the fourth quarter. Rivers did try it again, and it turned into a pick six for Dee Winters. And then after the game on Inside the NFL, which I know you watch the Rivers actually sought out Winters after it to talk about, you know, how did you know I was going to throw there? It was a cool sequence. Right.
- [26:48]
George Dunham
So you're telling me that's a linebacker making a play and not just a play, a pick six from the linebacker position and attacking.
- [26:58]
Bob Sturm
And you know what? This is a guy that was trained by two guys that I would want my linebackers to learn from. Gary Patterson and Fred Warner, man. And holy heck, man. This guy did what, four years at tcu, I think, and then three years next to Fred Warner. And. And. And see, when Warner put on Instagram after D. Winters was traded, he had the little crying face and said, dallas just got them one. One for real. And. And so, you know, hey, Fred Warner trained somebody and Gary Patterson did. And then the tape says what it says, this is so much better than what we had last year, George. Where. Where you have basically a linebacker that allows himself to be blocked like he's a kicker. Just. No, no, thank you. No, thank you. So. So this. I don't know if D winners wound up being the starter. I don't know if this means now they're out on Jordan Brooks. I don't know. What I do think, though is this is great use of a fifth round pick.
- [28:03]
George Dunham
Yeah, I do too. And then you add in Jalen Thompson and Kobe Durant.
- [28:10]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [28:11]
George Dunham
Of course, Caleb Downs would be the other starter. That would be six new starters.
- [28:16]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [28:16]
George Dunham
So that's. You know, you can't get 11 new starters. And they didn't. Let's be honest, they didn't need 11 new starters. You throw those guys next to Quinn and Williams and you hope demarvi and Overshone can stay healthy and you hope that, you know, could you say, comes back and starts looking like himself again and all of a sudden it's like, okay, yeah, I could see that defense taking a big jump.
- [28:41]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And if you are willing to say like, Siobhan Ravel is new, or Revel. I think I've been saying that wrong the whole time. Once again, I hope you play well enough that we learn.
- [28:51]
George Dunham
Rebel, I believe is.
- [28:53]
Bob Sturm
I think that's right. And you know, then whether PJ Lock has a role and you just start going down the list and you're like, holy heck, do we have like a dozen of our top 17 defenders are just flat out new players? So I don't know. I don't know how well it's going to work, but it's going to be different. And the goal should be, let's get close to 20. So I keep 10 important defensive metrics. You know, this. They. They are very basic points, yards rushing, yards passing yards turn takeaways, third downs, red zone explosives, allowed sacks per attempt, and so forth. So 10 key metrics. And these were basically Aikman selected But I just kept doing them over the course of time. And the Cowboys were in the 30s, George, in six of them.
- [29:50]
George Dunham
Okay.
- [29:50]
Bob Sturm
And they were. And they were 29th and two more of them. And so the goal is I, I need you between 16 and 20 in as many of these 10 categories as we can get. And if you do get between 16 and 20, we're willing to call you an NFL average defense. And if the Cowboys have an NFL average defense, they can win the super bowl because they're going to have a top five offense. Yeah, most likely. And so that's, that's the key is one side of the ball is dominant, the other side is right around NFL average. You can't do dominant and worst in the league. And that's what they tried to do last year and that's why it went so poorly.
- [30:36]
George Dunham
Well, and just for emphasis, I don't know what's worse, giving up 47% on third down or allowing 54 plays of 25 yards or more. Yeah, that's what this Cowboys defense did last year. It's just how bad they were staggering.
- [30:57]
Bob Sturm
You just can't win like that.
- [30:58]
George Dunham
No, you can't. Okay, so let's talk about the impact after the first round. And Dee Winters comes here, just like we thought. Okay. We didn't have his name, but we thought they would be looking to add a veteran linebacker because that's where the linebackers were going to go. And the third round, or sorry, the second round. So then you roll into the third round and it gave me pause originally because you're taking another defensive player of the University of Michigan. But all I can tell is Jayson Barham is a tackling machine and I love what I see in him. And they're going to the way it was described to me. He's maybe not the top of the line model of like Arvel Reese, but very similar. And they're going to start him off inside, they know he can play outside. They're going to start him off inside and see what he can do.
- [32:00]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I'm really hyped about this guy. Really hyped. I did not know his work. I was not familiar with it. I go 75 deep or so, George. And I just didn't get to him because as an edge, he wasn't in the top class according to most. And as a off ball linebacker, he didn't play there at all in 2025. And so he fell through the cracks for me. Hand in the air. But you know what? Luckily for everybody, I'm not The Cowboys front office, they were on him and they love him. And now that I've looked at him, I think I love him too. And the vision, if I understand it correctly, and maybe you're hearing different, I'm not sure. But here's what I believe J Sean Barham is. I believe he's the other linebacker. So we just talked about Dee Winters and that sort of off ball, you know, kind of middle linebacker. I realize the two linebackers are interchangeable, but. But they do have different designations. If Dee Winters and let's say Maris Leofow is the plan or Shamar James is behind him. So that's the depth chart there. The other guy is demarvi and Overshone. And we all love demo, but we also know that Demo has to prove he can stay available. And also he's almost out of contract and also he just hired David Mulaguetta. So there's some, some complications here. I think Jayshawn Barham is demarvi and Overshone's understudy his insurance policy in the event of injury and his successor in the event of contract problems. And I think this plan was in place long before the Mulligetta news, so you don't have to panic about that. But I do think they're the same type of guy, same type of player and more importantly, the same position. On Christian Parker's design, which is called the hybrid linebacker. So you have one linebacker who plays linebacker pretty much off ball. He might blitz, but it will be those a gap blitzes. It's not going to be much off the edge. Although honestly, Dee Winters has rushed off the edge and at times he's looked pretty good. So maybe you can even interchange them from down to town down, I don't know. But at this position, the Overshone position, let's call it the hybrid position, they do want to keep you off the ball most of the time, but they also can run a 5:1 where they kind of make you the edge outside, let's say a bigger inside guy like Rashawn Gary.
- [34:43]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [34:44]
Bob Sturm
So then everybody sort of slides down and you can rush off the edge, which is what Barham did at Michigan this past year. And it was pretty good. You know, as an edge, he's I and he's bigger. You know, he's like 250 something.
- [34:56]
George Dunham
So.
- [34:57]
Bob Sturm
So this guy, I heard his player comp George, and you'll love this, it's the Tasmanian devil. And you know, he just plays. He plays a nut. He plays like an animal and you know, not that Dissimilar to D. Winters in terms of flying around and bsu, the blow us up type linebacker. So again, this is not your 2025 Cowboy linebackers. And I, I just, I love the speed, I love the, the, the disposition, the attitude and the versatility. And, and I think, you know, they use Zach Bond in their press conference as, as the model. Another guy who was a pass rusher in college, but an off ball linebacker in the NFL for the Saints and now the Eagles as sort of the template there. So I really, really think this is a scheme fit for the Cowboys. Baramis.
- [35:53]
George Dunham
Yeah, I do too. Some seems to really fit the Christian Parker mold. So we roll on to the fourth round and that's where the Cowboys got some offensive line help in. Drew Shelton, offensive tackle from Penn State, but I'm told he can play guard too. So he's very versatile. And there's a tackle issue on this team, as we all know. Not sure what exactly is going to happen at that position, but I think that's a good, solid pick and you know, best guy available. And then also in the fourth round you pick up Devin Moore, the corner from Florida who while he did have injuries, he's got good speed, especially for his height. And from what I'm told, they're not worried about the injuries. They really put him through some tough test on that and they think he's, he's good to go on that. And then you add a versatile defensive lineman in L.T. overton.
- [36:54]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [36:55]
George Dunham
Again, a productive player from Alabama. I don't, I'm trying not to get too excited about this, but it's like every pick to them that they made makes sense to me. Doesn't mean they're going to be all pros, but I think they can help this team and I think help pretty quickly.
- [37:12]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I think so. And again, these are small percentage plays. Again, If I said 15% was after those top two guys, so Barum would be like 6% and then Shelton three, Devin Moore three. And then it drops down to like one for Overton, one for Dee Winters and one for Anthony Smith. You know, just the, the, we're using the points chart of the draft picks. So of all these names, I was not super familiar with Devin Moore, but I find him very promising. But I, you know, my overview, George, would be when you get to day three in the draft, let's really take shots at premium positions. And so again, Drew Shelton, he's not my cup of tea, but he's an offensive lineman. I got zero problem with them. Saying, you know what, we think he's the best offensive lineman left. Let's take a shot. Most of the time it turns into like Josh Ball or Chaz Green or Matt Will, let's go. And we never really hear from them after training camp practices or the final preseason game. Like usually it doesn't hit. But I've got News. There are 31 other teams in the NFL and many of those 31 other teams actually find starters on day three in the offensive line. Like you don't have to take your entire offensive line with your first round picks. It actually can happen. So one of these years they're going to hit on one. I'm not positive. I would gamble that it's Drew Shelton just because George, I have a thing for play strength from my offensive lineman and I think he is more of an athlete who they think they can make stronger. And to that I say let's see it. I look forward to that. You know, he's fine, he's whatever. It's fine. Devin Moore though, this is a cornerback that should not be in the fourth round. Except he's had trouble staying healthy at Florida. But if you just simply look at the tape he has, it's really, really impressive.
- [39:22]
George Dunham
Like he calf of this last year too.
- [39:24]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, yeah. And I don't know if he's a ultimately a safety convert or if they love him as like a zone corner, but he finished strong at Florida. We do know that we have a Florida Gator as our head coach. So, so there are some, there are some ties that bind us. But, but again, if you're going to take a shot on a corner in round four and he has tape that impressive, I'm in. I just wish there was more tape. I just wish he played more. He has like 1100 snaps in four seasons and I just told you that Dee Winters has like 1100 snaps last year. So, so that means homeboy doesn't play much and we need that to change if you're going to be in the NFL. Otherwise you're, you're not for long as they say. And then Overton real fast. I've been down on him since he was touted as like the top defensive lineman in America when he went to A&M five years or four years ago, I guess three years ago. I'm trying to remember which class. I guess class of 22. George. Yeah, anyway, anyway, he was a five star. He was a can't miss and then he went to A and M and sort of spared everybody to death and then went Went to Alabama and I think got slightly better. It's just he's not twitchy at all. 26 inch vertical leap. He's. For a guy his size, you want, you know, psychotic twitch, explosiveness and he's not that. But what he is is a trench grunt and a guy who's strong and a guy who won't get pushed off the ball. And while I prefer the guys who are in the backfield, I understand in the scheme you need guys who can hold their water and keep linebackers clean. And I think you'll play them more inside than outside. But again, George at pick 137.
- [41:15]
George Dunham
Yeah, sure, take a chance, see what happens.
- [41:18]
Bob Sturm
The reason I was down on him is he was being touted as a top 50 guy for most of the draft year and he just. No, no, no, no. There are no splash plays on the film. There is no good testing. So he fell and fell and fell. But again, there comes a point in the valuation where you're like, okay, at this price, let's do it.
- [41:37]
George Dunham
And in the seventh round they got what is, I'm told, a speed project with Anthony Smith, the wide receiver from East Carolina. Four, four speed. And again, seventh round, I'm told maybe you can play special teams. They hope so because CJ Goodwin is not back. There's a number of guys who played just special teams that they're trying to upgrade. And I don't know, maybe he's a guy who can make the team as a, you know, emergency wide receiver down the line, but a guy who can get on the field because he can run and.
- [42:14]
Bob Sturm
Well, he, he can run and he can also catch the bomberooski.
- [42:17]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [42:18]
Bob Sturm
When he was at East Carolina he had some ridiculous games. Check out the Tulane game. He had like 150 yards on, I think three catches or four catches or something goofy like that. So, so he can, he's got long speed. Yeah. If you're picked on late in day three, you better be able to cover kicks. And we'll find out because he hasn't really done it since 2023 when he was at NC State. But he portaled to East Carolina. They made him a full time receiver. He was very productive, but I don't have much on him yet and I, you know, it's, it's go to camp and earn a spot and we do know, both of us do that wide receiver is a spot on this team where you can make the team. There's, there's numbers there that say if you're impressive, they need you they don't have depth at wide receivers. So Anthony Smith may have fallen to the right team because, you know, there are jobs to be won. After Ryan Flournoy, it's. It's just a bunch of stuff. At wide receiver.
- [43:16]
George Dunham
Rashawn Gary, Jalen Thompson, D winners, these draft picks, it all sounds really good, but there's one thing that this whole thing really depends on, and let's talk about that next as we finish up here with football friends. I guess every team, Bob, thinks that, man, they just killed the draft. And we got exactly. We got our guy. We got exactly what we needed. And you see celebrations in the war rooms, and you hear ridiculous calls from the head coach and the owner to a player saying, hey, man, we love you, man. Way to go, bro. And, you know, by the way, do you like shoddy calls or do you think they're just painful and cringy?
- [44:01]
Bob Sturm
They're all kind of the same, is what I would say. He's. He has a way about him. And I bet you it's. It's super warm for someone not used to it, but perhaps I'm becoming desensitized. But. But if you love it, I want you to love it.
- [44:18]
George Dunham
I kind of love it and I laugh at it, you know?
- [44:20]
Bob Sturm
Okay.
- [44:21]
George Dunham
Just because we always on our show, have the man and brother count, you know, how many times he's gonna get
- [44:27]
Bob Sturm
that out that boy. He's got that.
- [44:29]
George Dunham
Yeah, I'm with you.
- [44:30]
Bob Sturm
You know how much I love both of those.
- [44:31]
George Dunham
I know. So. But it all. It all sounds good. And we just talked for 45 minutes about how good we think this last week has been for the Cowboys and how good this off season has been going back to when they named Christian Parker the defensive coordinator. And I. I'm not ready to throw cold water on this whole thing. I'm just saying if. If you are trying to look at it objectively. I wanted them to get a guy like this for defensive coordinator, not just the same old guy. Okay, let's take another defensive coordinator from 20 years in the NFL about a guy with new ideas, and he's seen as the youngest and brightest among NFL young coaches and ready to be a coordinator in all this. Bobby's never called a game ever. And that's my only hesitation with this whole thing is what if I think the guy's going to be great? All. All markers say he's a good young coach. He's. He comes from a great background. Vic Fangio and Advance Joseph or who's the other coordinator from Denver Yeah.
- [45:50]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, we'll go. Yeah. Vance Joseph.
- [45:55]
George Dunham
Yeah, okay. I was right. But, man, what if he is not all that? And what if they have. Because they have put all of their defensive chips in. Okay, this is what CP wants. This is the kind of player with CP once. I'm just saying.
- [46:16]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [46:16]
George Dunham
I hope he's as good as we think he is, because if he's not, or if he's maybe just a little off, man, this whole thing is messed up.
- [46:26]
Bob Sturm
Right? Right. Yeah. I mean, they've made some huge bets on Brian Schottenheimer and Christian Parker and a huge bet on Caleb Downs. And if any of them proved to be fraudulent. Yeah, we'll be rebuilding this thing in a couple of years all over again, George, if we still have the energy to do it.
- [46:50]
George Dunham
I don't know if I do, Bo. I don't know if I can start at the bottom again.
- [46:54]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I know. I know. So. So they've. They've. Listen, we. We usually bank on the belief that they're going to, at some point, try a different route. And this, if nothing else, this should signify a. A, a, a different route altogether. I'm looking at my roster sheet. I see 16 new Dallas Cowboys since January, and of that I think I see 12 of them are defensive players.
- [47:25]
George Dunham
That's what we wanted.
- [47:27]
Bob Sturm
And most of them are very young. I think only one of them could be considered old. And I don't think we've ever said his name on football friends. So let me say the name. Jonathan Bullard is a Dallas Cowboy. Guys.
- [47:39]
George Dunham
We haven't brought him up. And he could be in the rotation. Sure could.
- [47:43]
Bob Sturm
He's been in this league a long time and he knows what he's doing in NFL trenches and he's aight. In fact, he might be the type of guy that keeps LT Overton inactive. I don't know. But. But we'll see. These are. These are camp things we don't have to worry about until we come back from our little vacation. Georgie. But just overall, it's a new path, and that should, you know, excite us. In fact, if you want to go back even further, you can say that the holdovers all got here kind of just last year. And here. Okay. Here before we go, are the defensive players that played for the Dallas Cowboys When Mike McCarthy was the head coach. Okay.
- [48:32]
George Dunham
Okay.
- [48:33]
Bob Sturm
That wasn't that long ago, George. It was like 16 months ago, right?
- [48:37]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [48:38]
Bob Sturm
Okay. Here are the carryovers from that period in time. Malik Hooker is your veteran. He is the oldest Dallas Cowboy. Longest Tenured Dallas Cowboy defender from 2021. In 2022, they added Sam Williams, Duron Bland, and Marquis Bell. So now we're up to four in 2023 demo. Now we're at five. And in 2024, they added three more. And I'm not sure if any of these guys even make this team. Kaylin, Carson, Marisol, and Josh Butler. So there are eight. Eight holdovers from Mike McCarthy in the entire defensive side of the building.
- [49:26]
George Dunham
And you could have just four or five of them on the team when they play their first game next year.
- [49:31]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And how many are starters? Duron Bland, for sure.
- [49:36]
George Dunham
Maybe Demo most likely. Going to start. Yeah.
- [49:40]
Bob Sturm
And Malik Hooker, most likely. Okay, so three. And that's Mike McCarthy. You know, we're not even talking Jason Garrett. No. And in fact, there's only one Dallas Cowboy period, from Jason Garrett's era. Dak Prescott. Wow. One.
- [49:55]
George Dunham
That's it.
- [49:56]
Bob Sturm
So it really is a not for long league. And, you know, time. Time moves very fast. So all these young men who are 20 and 21, and you're just like, man, we get to watch these guys for a decade now. You probably get to watch them for about the 2.7 year average that NFL careers last.
- [50:17]
George Dunham
Yeah. And that's. Why was it four years and you're vested. That's why. Yeah, it's just, oh, man, can I make it four years?
- [50:25]
Bob Sturm
That's right.
- [50:25]
George Dunham
This league, most of them think that way. Well, that was awesome, Bob. I tell you what, let's do one more before we go into football hibernation next week and just.
- [50:33]
Bob Sturm
Okay.
- [50:34]
George Dunham
Some things we'll track over the summer with this team. There's a few things from the draft and maybe some. Some of the undrafted free agents. There's a couple of interesting names on that list, too. To. Hey, maybe they have a chance to make this team this year.
- [50:49]
Bob Sturm
Yes, that's.
- [50:49]
George Dunham
That's. See, we worry about stuff like that on Football Friends.
- [50:53]
Bob Sturm
We're back in the Baylor tight end business. Georgie. Oh, boy.
- [50:56]
George Dunham
That's an interesting story, too.
- [50:58]
Bob Sturm
I definitely is. I'm ready.
- [51:00]
George Dunham
Okay. All right, we'll do that next week. We're out of time for this week. Thanks to Peter Welton for producing for Bob Stern. I'm George Dunham, and we'll talk to you next time on Football Friends.
- [51:17]
Bob Sturm
The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock, but there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley?
- [51:31]
George Dunham
How did they go from top of the rock.
- [51:32]
Bob Sturm
I'm looking for a music video.
- [51:34]
George Dunham
They're a band from 1987, Hammer Alley. Ever heard of them? To rock bottom.
- [51:39]
Bob Sturm
Dude, I was born in 1987.
- [51:42]
George Dunham
I can't believe he's doing this.
- [51:43]
Bob Sturm
Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.