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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Cowboys edition, what we like to call football friends. George Dunham, Bob Sturm, and we just keep trudging right along through the off season. This is a big, big week. It's NFL draft week and the Cowboys have two first round picks. And we've been talking a lot about it, Bob, for a couple of months. And before we talk about what the Cowboys may or may not do, it is amazing and we say it every year, but it just keeps getting bigger. I remember having to listen to the NFL draft to local stations here in the Dallas Fort Worth area on the radio because there was no ESPN full blown coverage and there was no NFL Network. I know these are dinosaur times I'm talking about here, but the fact that city's bid to host the NFL draft, that there will be in Pittsburgh. What do you think? I mean it depends on how big their setup is, but we've seen it outside of Vegas and here in Dallas, it's what, 50, 60,000 people just standing around watching selections and networks are broadcasting every pick. It's spread over prime time from Thursday through Saturday. It's insane how they have created this big event. It's big. There's no doubt its importance and that's why we've been talking about it for two months. But when you step back and look at it, it's just insane, isn't it?
- [01:40]
B
Yeah, it really is. And I feel like we are finally to a point where it's reached its fullest form. It can't get bigger than this, but it's such a, such an industry in and of itself. And that's, you know, I know it's been said before, but that's like the biggest compliment you can pay the National Football League is that these other sports may have one evening where you are thinking about the NBA draft or the NHL draft or the Major League Baseball draft. And odds are not even that like most people don't care. And let me know when these guys join my team. Right. And let me know when he's in the starting lineup. I don't tell me about the process of finding a player and Moose Jaw and then sending him to juniors and then going through the minors and then in three years he might make have a chance of making the big team in training camp. Meanwhile, here's the NFL that really generates about 100 days of straight content for football fans starting, you know, in your east west shrine and your Senior bowl weeks and then going through everything that goes into football, finding each of these college players a home. And those names become celebrities even before they get to the league because you've talked and heard and worried and just all these things. I mean, what about Jermod McCoy's medical rechecks and did he ever run his 40 at his pro day? And why did he not run at the combine? And what's going on here, George? And you just start going down the list and it's insanity. The amount of information you and I knew as kids and you know, we're probably older than your average bear, but the amount of information we knew when our team took somebody was roughly zero. Well, here's a great example, George, in the Cowboys Rewind Twitter account. Okay, we have just gone to April of 1976, 50 years ago, and the papers are trying to figure out who Aaron Kyle is. Now, I fully expect you have a dossier on Aaron Kyle, but he was the first round selection of the 1976 Dallas Cowboys. And Roger K. For the Star Telegram writes as follows. The Dallas Cowboys in typical fashion, dipped into the barrel of unknown collegiate talent and came up with the name Aaron Kyle as their first ground choice in Thursday's National Football League Draft. Kyle, 511, 177 defensive back from Wyoming was the 27th and next to last player selected in the opening round. The Cowboys, who have become famous for picking unknowns in the early rounds, selected two more in the second round, running back Jim Jensen of Iowa and guard Jim Edison or Eidson.
- [04:38]
A
Well, I don't remember him. No, I don't think he has.
- [04:43]
B
Those were their top three picks, although Kyle was far from being a household name. Personnel chief Gil Brandt and scout Red Hickey said the Wyoming product was In Dallas's top 10 lists of players available. And head coach Tom Landry felt the Cowboys landed a top player in Kyle.
- [04:59]
A
Well, number 25, smallish corner, I guess for the time he wasn't that small, but he did start form for a number of years. I don't know if he was worthy of the number one draft pick, but okay, yeah, 10 year old or 11 year old me, I had no idea that was going on until the next day and I saw in the paper and I tried to figure out who these people were. I don't remember the first time I remember celebrating a Cowboys draft pick was actually the next year when a very good Cowboys team somehow wound up with the number one overall pick. I think they did a deal with Seattle and they got Tony Dorset and got td. That's, that's really the first time I remember it. I remember trying to follow prospects and I Remember being excited about Mike Sherrard in 1986, a receiver who had all sorts of injury problems. And then later once he got those solved, I believe he played in the super bowl with San Francisco. He turned out to be a really good player. Yeah. And I, and I distinctly remember as I started getting closer to getting radio employment, my last year of college was 88 and I was rooting for the Cowboys. They'd missed the playoffs in 87 strike shortened season. And that's when they landed Michael Irvin. And I remember there were, I remember mock drafts that year. Hey, the Cowboys could take a receiver and it could be Michael Irvin and maybe that revamps the Cowboys offense. And then here's one more draft story for you from Cowboys years past.
- [06:49]
B
Can I tell you one more thing about Aaron Kyle?
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A
Oh yeah, hit me.
- [06:52]
B
His quote from the story. I didn't really expect to go in the first round.
- [06:59]
A
Yeah, wow.
- [07:00]
B
I was, I wasn't expecting you guys to call so early. I was told I wasn't really a first round player. But if, if I'm your favorite corner in this draft, then let's give it a shot. He would, he would play four years with the Cowboys. It looks like John Stallworth would beat him for a touchdown in Super Bowl 13. And then he would finish his career after he was released due to bone spurs in his knee in May of 1980. And he would play two or three short seasons with the Denver Broncos as they brought their Aaron Kyle home. Okay, so there you go.
- [07:36]
A
Yeah, I remember it was a rather short career for Aaron Kyle. But yeah, and that doesn't surprise me that even he was shocked that he went in the first round. The Cowboys did that a number of times and some said that led to their demise in the 80s. I think 82 was Rod Hill. You just out of nowhere, you know, just a defensive back from Kentucky. And yeah, he never started here or he may have started but he flamed out. And something Gilbrein got really crazy with picks in the early and mid-80s.
- [08:13]
B
Yes, it went from, it went from like his best fastball that his early work with the computers and looking in other sports for great athletes and all the things Gilbrandt did. I'm sure like any innovation, other teams start copying you and it gets more difficult to produce the same results. But I remember back then hearing all the time that teams would literally use the street and Smith yearbook to make their own picks like previews. If somebody got good ink in a college snippet in the press, he would move up a draft Board or down. And so it's changed a lot. You had a story you wanted to say before I rudely interrupted you?
- [09:00]
A
No, you were good. I was just. I was. Remember the first time I ever covered the draft, and I just thought it was amazing. And back then, the way we would cover it. And I was at KRLD radio in Dallas, and we were the flagship station of the Cowboys. It was a pretty big deal. And Brad Sham, who's still the voice of the Cowboys, would anchor the coverage. And I think he was at the studios or radio studios, and he had some, you know, support there and then out at Valley ranch. This is 1989. This is Jimmy Johnson's first draft. I was pretty much the producer for a guy by the name of Dale Hanson, who was doing the games with Brad then. And trust me, Dale had done zero work on who was going where. And I'd done a little bit, but, you know, I was kind of out of my element, too. And it was a foregone conclusion what the Cowboys were going to do at one. They took Troy Aikman. Pretty solid pick there.
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B
Yes.
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A
And then they rolled into the second round and they took Steve Wisniewski, who they later traded to the Raiders. And then they had a pick, 39th overall. And I happened to wander out in the hallway and ran into a guy who was scouting for the Cowboys at the time that I'd known for years. I used to clean his clubs at a country club called Horseshoe Bay in Atlanto County. His name is Walter Juliff. And I ran into Walter and I said, hey, what's going on? No, not much. Just taking a little break. You know, we're here in the second round. I said, what are you all going to do? And he goes, we're going to take that fullback out of Syracuse. I just nodded my head and went, okay. And I went right back to my draft guy. And who's the fullback from? I had no idea who this guy was. And it was Darrell Moose Johnston. And I wrote it down. It was like two picks ahead of where the Cowboys were. And I wrote Dale Hansen. And Lenoda said they're going to take the fullback out of Syracuse, Daryl Johnston. And I handed them the note and. All right, Brad handed the note here. It says, the Cowboys are going to take Daryl Johnson. I have no idea who that is, but apparently they're going to draft him. And. And Brad said, well, where'd you get that information? Well, your guy works for you, this George Dunham character out here, and he outed you. He Totally out of me. I was like, oh, crap, what if I get this wrong? What if the Cowboys. And sure enough, two picks later, and as Pete Roselle is going to the podium, Brad says, well, the reputation of George Dunham and Brad and Dale Hansen are on the line here. And sure enough, the Cowboys select Daryl Johnston, fullback, Syracuse. And I made Barry Horns column that week in the Dallas Morning News, and I thought, okay, I can make it in radio now. I've made Barry Horns column, and I pretty much gave Dale a note that turned out to be right. But what. Yeah. What a historic draft that was. They got Mark Stepnowski, I think, later. Yeah, it was later in the second round, or he may have been third round. But anyway, that was the start of the Jimmy era.
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B
Incredible.
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A
What a great story. Well, it's a fun draft story anyway.
- [12:19]
B
It's fun to cover the draft one. It's what the people want right there. I mean, no, that's phenomenal. And, you know, I'm going right to the Morning News archives to find Barry horn's column from 1980.
- [12:35]
A
Yeah.
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B
Check it out.
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A
I made the grade. I sure did.
- [12:40]
B
I love it. I love it. All right. Well, you know, it's. It's a spot now that we've talked and talked and talked about, and this is such a critical draft for the Cowboys. And, you know, the more I look at it, George, the more I've talked myself into. I expect them to be aggressive, and I just think that they have a plan to get after one of these coveted defenders. And. And I think they believe if they do it correctly, they can probably double dip. And so I don't, you know, and I. I don't have inside information. I. You know, some years I feel like I have. Some other years, it's. It's kind of radio silence. I know you might not feel the same way. Maybe you do have some intel. But I. This is all a hunch. And we know from history that sometimes Bob's hunches are a million miles from the target. But my hunch is that I really think they're going to try to push the issue, and that can be a dangerous game. But I just. The alternative. And so what we're talking about is trading up with that 12th pick.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yes. I expect that when we get to draft day, there will be a point. And if I were to guess, the point would be the Giants put in their pick at number five. And so, you know, we can sort of hash out how the first five might look.
- [14:13]
A
We're.
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B
We're guessing we're guessing for sure with like Arizona and Tennessee in particular, that that is your guess as good as mine. We think we know Mendoza. We think we know. Well, we do know Mendoza. We think we know, like Arvell Reese at 2, 3 and 4 are tremendous wild cards and that goes on both sides of the ball. That goes for a number of players. But if it goes a certain way, by the end of the fifth pick, I expect the Cowboys in Cleveland to share a phone call. And from there I expect the Cowboys to try to mobilize and Cleveland's going to try to soak them for all they can. But I just think, and I've said this every week for probably a month and a half, I just think the pivot point of this draft from a Cowboys perspective is the sixth pick. If you get past six, then you might see them just trying to sit there till 12. But I think 6 is gettable. And although, you know, the more I think about it, George, we can't rule out the Kellen Moore connection in New Orleans, so we should keep an eye on eight as well. But Washington's a really important factor because they're most likely going defense and they're most likely taking one of the apples of your eye. So got to get in front of them. Got to pay the piper. But in my opinion, you got to make sure you have a second reasonable quality pick in return. I can't give 12 and 20 to move up, but if I can get 12 and 20 and get 6 and 39, we are partying. But. But maybe there's even, you know, a middle ground offer, but that's what I expect. I don't think they're going to sit at 12 because I think it's way too risky.
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A
Yeah, I'm totally with you. I think that phone call was made. The problem is there may be other phone calls to Cleveland at number six that could be a better offer and this notion that I'm sure they've already had their contact and that's why the story is out there. But other teams are trying to trade up a couple of things that have changed since we talked last week, and that is the Giants did their Dexter Lawrence deal with Cincinnati and now The Giants have five and 10. Had they not made that deal before the draft, I really think the Giants would have gone wide receiver at 5. And now I'm wondering if they take one of the coveted defensive players like Caleb Downs and then they get their receiver at 10. So it may not have any bearing. Maybe Cincinnati was going to go Defense too or. But then again maybe they're going to go offensive line to protect Joe Burrow. I do think that could double cross the Cowboys somewhat in that they're right in front of them. And what if styles or downs are right there and the Giants take one of them?
- [17:20]
B
Well, I, or the one that's left.
- [17:22]
A
Rephrase that. The one that's left.
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B
Yeah, I'd be kind of shocked if they go defense twice.
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A
Right.
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B
And so if I'm them and I want to go defense and offense, I agree with your assessment that you would do defense at five and then come back and circle back for receiver at 10. That makes sense to me. Also, we can't rule out offensive line because the last time the Giants had a good offensive line, Bill Parcells was probably their coach. So, so they did Jackson free agency there.
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A
I don't know if any of those are good solutions, but they did, you know, make some invest investments in some mid level offensive linemen that are probably going to start for him.
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B
Yeah, let's see. Yeah, I, yeah, you know what, they're not as bad as they were. That's, that, that's fair. They're, they're, they're improved. And you know where they are still smarting is they spent that huge draft pick. This was the year they had two top, this is the, the Joe Schoen draft when he got hired their GM they had two picks in the top seven, I want to say in that 2022 draft and one was the LSU Thibodeau and the other was Evan Neal, the awesome offensive lineman from Alabama. And if you go 2 for 2 there, the Giants are playing for Super Bowls now. The problem is they didn't go two for two and they might not have gone. They might have gone over to, you know, so, so you know Thibodeau is a nice player, Kayvon Thibodeau, but they just took Abdul Carter in front of him and Brian Burns. And so you could argue that it's, it's a really weird fit for them. And now that they've traded big Dexter Lawrence, you know, you can certainly take them out of the game for edge. But the point is with, without, with Evan Neil missing and he's not even listed as a starter for them, they've gone back to the veteran path and you know, it's just they do have Andrew Thomas at left tackle and I think they've generally been happy with him. But the center from Minnesota they drafted in the second round in 2023 has been pretty mid. So they're trying to do this with free agency. How that fits with Harbaugh, we don't know. But we do know that in their free agency they went and got the big Minnesota guard, Daniel, I believe,
- [20:00]
A
fa'. Alale.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah, so. So he was with Harbaugh the entire time. And then Harbaugh takes that job and he goes to from Baltimore to New York. So we should feel pretty good about a 6 8, 380 pound right guard fitting in for the Giants up front. And then they have the Aggie free agent, Jermaine you menorah, who was pretty good for them this past season. He's been there the last couple of years and he doesn't seem like a big part of the problem. So anyway, as we try to sort out where the Giants head is at and what they're thinking, it's a beautiful mystery. As Aaron Rodgers might say, it's tough to fully lock in on what they're thinking, but we do know they want to be a more physical team and they don't want to get their quarterback killed. So there's clues. But again, again, this is the game, right?
- [20:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
If you're gonna sit at 12, you're gonna have to sit here and mindlessly speculate as we go through this and just kind of hope that you're reading the room correctly. And I just, the more I sit there, the more I don't expect that they'll have the patience to just kind of sit and hope. I think they're going to want to, you know, push the envelope a little more and try to go after their guy. If they can find a trade that isn't insane.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah, I'm with you. And I think that could be exciting that they jump up in the top six and then take that 39th pick overall, which is we've talked about Will, let's say they wanted to go. Maybe Styles is gone. But yeah. Is it crazy? I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. I was talking about this with longtime draft expert Norm Hitchkiss today on the ticket in Dallas. That would it be crazy? Let's say you lucked into it and you went up to six and Sonny Stiles was there and you took him and then you took a different type of linebacker with 39th, assuming they make this deal with Cleveland. Is that crazy to get two different type of linebackers? I don't necessarily think it is. Just because they have so few who can that we know can play on this roster right now.
- [22:26]
B
Well, I guess that would tell me where you are on demarvi and overshone.
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A
I'm undecided on him. I want to see him make it through an entire season and I don't know which. Totally fair. Yeah, maybe my new defensive coordinators got here and went, yeah, I don't know about this dude. I need.
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B
Well, yeah, I mean that's. Again, that's a totally fair opinion. And I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I am saying in this scheme, they can only have two linebackers on the field. And so if, let's say I trade back to 39. So I'm going to take a top 40 pick with this many holes and I'm going to take a depth linebacker in the second round. I just, I would. At least now you can serve him.
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A
He's going to do different things for me. I'm going to move him around and he'll be on the field somehow.
- [23:19]
B
Sounds like you just described Marisolia Foul. Who's a linebacker. Slash edge.
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A
I always liked him and I always say it really quietly because everyone sucks, but man, I think he can play. I don't think he's ever been given
- [23:32]
B
a chance, but he's on your team, so why would we use our second round pick on that as well?
- [23:37]
A
Well, because that's what I think of him. A real football person may look at go in. Jeez, I don't know. This. This guy is a spare part on an NFL team.
- [23:47]
B
Well, to be. To be fair, I would not buy stock at various Leopard right now. Although if you wanted to, it's, it's.
- [23:54]
A
That's how bad the defense has been the last couple of years. I was begging for him to get more time last year. Right. Because not that he was great, but I thought he could do better than whatever that mess was that was out there.
- [24:07]
B
Yeah, I, I guess I feel, I feel desperate and I know that's a bad way to enter a draft room, but I feel desperate at linebacker. I really do. But I feel like I have my depth linebacker in Shamar James and they like this Justin Baron cat a lot more than I do, at least from hearing them talk. The syracuse kid who's 24 years old, he was a college free agent last year. And when I would talk to people in the front office, they would say Justin Barron is going to play a role here during his career. We like him a lot. And I don't know, does that mean he's a special teams guy? Which, by the way, if you're a depth linebacker, you better be a special teams guy or if they think he can grow into the scheme. And by the way, I think most of that information predates Christian Parker, so we will have to wait and see on Justin Baron. I'm not telling you to build around him. I am saying if I entered the season with, let's say Sonny Styles and demarvi and overshone and then my backups are Shermar James and Justin Barron, I think I might be pretty close to ready to roll. And then so. So I would push back on two of them with my top two picks because I. I still have way too much uncertainty at safety. I'm still running Malik Hooker out there and Marquis Bell, who I really think is going to have to have a hard time making this team. Revel is still a massive question at corner.
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A
Yeah, corner you've got now.
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B
I'm paying Duron Bland insane money, but let's try not to stress his money right now and let's just have the conversation of where, where does he fit best? Is he a nickel or is he an outside corner and is his body right? And so that's that question. And then I feel like I got Kobe Durant in here for a reason. Okay, that's cool. So my corner room is shaping up, but if I can get a top corner with one of those top two picks, I think I got to do it Edge. I have Rashawn Gary, I have as a Raku, I still have James Houston. I brought back Sam Williams and Tyrus Wheat and now I've told Marist Leopold to prepare to play edge this year. So six names. I feel good about a couple of them, but I'm not walking away from a good edge if Reuben Bain falls to me. Are you?
- [26:51]
A
No, absolutely not. And I think if they stayed at 12, that's a name to really keep in mind.
- [26:57]
B
I agree.
- [26:57]
A
If in fact, that's our football friends. Mock had him dropping to the Cowboys at 12 and it seemed like the logical selection. Let me ask you this. I think you've answered this question before, but let's say they do go up to six. I don't know if it's going to work out this way, but you had your choice of styles or downs, who would you take?
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B
Downs. Okay, yeah, I have downs. Downs is my third ranked player in this draft.
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A
Don't you know the Cowboys will take grief about that though, because he's a safety and it's. Oh, here the Cowboys drafting, I think, you know, out of sequence or need or something. I don't know.
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B
Well, aside from people giving the Cowboys grief Just because it's fun. I do think Downs is the type of player that has enough respect in the game that, that I think whoever gets downs is going to be widely complimented. Now then, if you attach to it. But look what they had to trade to go get downs. That does that is perceived differently than they sat at 12 and downs fell to them. And I got to tell you, I don't think that's impossible because as we have said, safeties always fall, and especially safeties that are not considered athletic freaks. And I, if I were to say, and we've had a couple questions on this, like, what's the one thing about Caleb Downs that gives you some concern? And we, we had that question. We actually have some questions from, from some of our football friends listeners here and, and maybe we get to them a little bit later, but this is one of them. And that is if you had a problem with Caleb Downs, what would it be? And I would just say the big one I have is that he didn't do any testing, like, very little. And so he's one of those guys that says, man, if you don't, if you don't feel like my tape is my test, I don't know what to tell you. And while I don't disagree with the premise, I do know how our scout friends like to have it verified that you don't just look like you run a 4 4. You actually did run a 4 4, which is, you know, that does get teams in trouble. I think he's more than athletic enough, but he's not one of those guys where you say this guy could be an avenger like you would like Arvell Reese or Sonny Stiles.
- [29:32]
A
Right?
- [29:33]
B
So, so Caleb Downs, there's some guesswork there. And really, just to repeat what we've said a few times, and it's important for people to understand this, there's a franchise tag number for each position, and they do vary, but they match up wonderfully with the idea that the premium positions make the most money in, in this league? And I'm not saying it's, it's. It's completely fair, but I am saying that's what the league has told us and that if that's the system, then we have to at least consider it. So just to give people not to get too far in the weeds, George. But the franchise tag number kind of tells us the money structure at each position. So very quickly, the 20, 26 franchise numbers. Quarterback is 44, wide receivers, 27, defensive tackle, 27, linebacker, because linebacker and edge have been morphed together is actually 27, offensive line is 25. That's because it's all five positions. Then edge at 24 or defensive end at 25, then corner, shockingly is 21. Safety 20, tight end, 15, running back 14. So what that tells us is the bottom position, Specifically running back, tight end and safety are the least paid positions in the sport. Now, if I take a guy at number 5, I have to pay him the number 5 slot regardless of position. So if I take a premium position, a quarterback, I get to pay him with the number five pick gets. But also if I take a running back, I have to pay him what the number five pick gets. It isn't a. That doesn't go by position. So you have to pay. Essentially, if you took Jeremiah Love at number three this year, you would have to pay him as if he's already a veteran on his second contract. So there's no value. There's. Now if I pay a quarterback 10 million a year, I'm making out like a bandit because quarterbacks make 60.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah.
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B
So it's. There's a financial component that we have to consider, which is drop downs.
- [31:41]
A
Yeah, that could drop downs, which is
- [31:43]
B
why safety will usually fall. And then, like I said, he didn't test either. So of the big six, you know, we've. We've mentioned them, Bailey, downs, Reese, Bain, Styles and Delane. Of those six, the most likely two to fall will be Delaine and downs, and those are the most likely to make it to 12. But like we said, it's a risk.
- [32:10]
A
Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. Anytime you have two first round picks, you have so many possibilities of what direction you're going to go and whether they move up or not. Let's say they stay at 12. Maybe they then move down at 20, get some additional picks because 20 to 40, it matches position. And hey, this team needs some bodies, they need some guys. And yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see what they do, especially if they can get up in the top six. You watch those Giants, though. I think they're going to screw something up for the Cowboys now that they have that 10th pick. Something. Something's going to happen there. That's the only prediction I'm going to make about the first 12 is that 10th pick. If the Cowboys stay at 12, it goes to the Giants, and the Cowboys are going to go crap.
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B
Now what's going to hurt?
- [33:06]
A
Yeah, I think it's going to hurt, but that's just. Okay, that's just a thought I have. Okay, we've got a lot of questions about this from our other football friends, and let's get some of those Coming up next, the United States Soccer Federation presents the U.S. soccer Podcast. My name is David Goss, and I'm joined by my co host, Megan Kleinenberg. And now we're giving people an inside look at the World Cup. Time's ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really stake their claim and they want to be on that World cup roster. There's no doubt about it. Hosting the World cup on home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just
- [33:38]
B
really excited just as the people are.
- [33:39]
A
The U.S. soccer Podcast, presented by Henkel. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. The NBA playoffs are finally here, and underdog is the best place to get in on the action. Playing on underdog is easy. Just pick whether your favorite players will go higher or lower on stats like points, rebounds, steals, and more. Get your picks right, you can win up to 5000 times your cash. Last week I went higher on SGA's point total and one big definitely rolling with him again this week. Download the app today and use the promo code musers to score $50 in bonus entries when you play your first $5. That's promo code Musers on underdog make picks win money must be 18 or older, 19 or older in Alabama and Nebraska, 19 or older in Colorado for some games 21 or older in Arizona, Massachusetts and Virginia and present in a state where underdog fantasy operates, terms apply. Concerned with your play? Call 1-800-Myreset or 1-800- gambler or visit ncpgambling.org In Arizona, call 1-800-next-step 1-800-6398, or text next step to 53342 In New York, call the 24.7-Hope line at 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny246-7369. Okay, Bob, I feel like you're approaching Christmas in your Santa Claus, like here in five days. You're finally going to sleep because you have been doing hours and hours of research. You've been writing, you've been talking about this. And we're almost to the NFL draft. We've got a lot of football friends out there. They've got some questions for us before we get to the big day.
- [35:18]
B
Yeah, they sure do. Daniel wants to know, does Reuben Baines, historically incompatible with edge measurements, scare you off at all in a Deuce Vaughn or Shakim Griffin kind of way? Also, why do we capitalize all the letters and the word edge in the college draft. Cottage industry. Ok, that's. That's what? I don't have an answer for you, but I'm guilty as charged. Does his historically short arms scare you? Yes, but not like Deuce Vaughn or Shakim Griffin. Didn't Shakim Griffin have one hand? I think so.
- [35:53]
A
So, yeah.
- [35:54]
B
So I would, with all due respect to the. The brother of Shaq Griffin, I believe Shakim having one hand is different than short arms from Ruben Bane, especially if we've seen Reuben Bain use those short arms and absolutely destroy people in his path at the college level. So I'm not crazy about it. I wish he had super long arms. But I also have to trust the tape. I think I have to watch him play football. And by the way, we get ripped for this every year. You people rip us. And I say, you people would love. But we get ripped for getting too worried about the underwear Olympics. And the fans frustratingly say, well, just watch him play football. So now we're watching him play football. He's a killer. And everybody wants to be like, yeah, what about the underwear Olympics, though? Why aren't his arms longer? So it's always so. I realize we're at that point in the draft.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah, I don't. As I said, I think it was last week. It doesn't bother me because, yeah, you. I saw Miami play quite a bit this year, and, man, that dude was a problem. I thought he was. I thought he was great in the Indiana game. I thought he was great in the Texas A and M game. He's just, I mean, you notice him, he jumps out.
- [37:14]
B
He's a dude.
- [37:15]
A
Yeah, he's a dude. I don't care how long his arms are.
- [37:19]
B
Here's one he wants to know. It's sds. I don't know. It's one of those weird Twitter names. George, if you can't trade up or down and the defenders are all gone at 12, why can't you take Jordan Tyson and then trade George Pickens? What could you get for George Pickens? Could you get a first? Could you get two seconds? I know the Cowboys would never do this, but would you? I think you only do it if you can get multiple picks for George Pickens.
- [37:48]
A
You know, there's Pickens rumors out there that the Cowboys and I don't pay much attention to them because I don't really think that's a deal. But there's. Those are out there, Bob.
- [38:00]
B
Well, I, I hear what people are saying, and I would start with any time you're paying your quarterback 60 and your wide receiver 134 and your wide receiver 2 seems to want somewhere 34 or above. I understand the concept of this is too much in one spot on the team. I do think the cap is only sort of real because of void years and the way teams can certainly cheat on the cap. So I don't like to be there's only so much pie because I think that misrepresents what's actually possible with the cap. But I do think a top heavy roster has been one of the Cowboys biggest problems over the years. So there's some wisdom in it. I just don't know that George Pickens has a robust market of believers out there that would be willing to not only trade something to him but then give him the extension of his dreams. And you'd have to be willing to do both. This is why Micah Parsons was such a rare dude, is that not only did a team want to break a contract record once he got there, but they also were willing to give you two number ones to do it. Very rare. Those guys check every box for a new team and they feel transformational. Whether Green Bay did a good deal or not, it will be argued probably till the end of time. But I just don't know that George Pickens has a market like that. So now are you saying two number twos for George Pickens? I just don't know the market and I also don't really know what he's asking for money wise. So I feel like we're totally guessing on what's possible there. And to say I'm going to take a wide receiver at 12 thinking I can trade George Pickens after the fact. I don't know man. That feels like you're doing a lot of uncertain work there.
- [40:09]
A
Yeah. And don't you think your, your quarterback is telling the coaching staff, yeah, wait till this year with Pickens and Lamb. And I think Pickens would love to have a, a new deal but at the same time I think he's looking at the reality of I'm probably going to have to play under this tag this year and I don't think this is going to get done with the Cowboys because they are not going to. They're not going to do it. They're not going to give him a CD deal this year, I don't think. Or close to it. So yeah, I think he's here and he plays under the tag. He's not happy about it. Maybe he misses some of the off season workouts but her dak this weekend talking at a charity function saying, yeah, he's already throwing the Pickens and seems fine to him. So they call them.
- [41:00]
B
They go, yeah, I guess my. My guess with Pickens is they tag him, he plays under it, and then he's gone next spring. And if I'm only keeping him for a year, there's a lot of wisdom in trading him. I. Again, I just don't know if there's a market for it. And I also don't know if you want it getting out that you're trying to move him, because I do think that can cause some unrest with the player and then by extension, your team. So I think it's very delicate, to say the least. It would. It would be much better if you could find a number that gets pickens his money. Four for a hundred would be wild. Four for 120 would still be in the range. I would do. That's the Amanra St. Brown deal. I would give that to George Pickens. We get him in at 30 a year and we boogie. But I just don't know if he's willing to do that sort of thing. A couple more.
- [41:52]
A
Okay.
- [41:53]
B
What's somebody that you absolutely want on the Cowboys but you don't think makes sense at 12 or 20? I'm going to assume we can't say Fernando Mendoza. I'm assuming he means it's too early at 12 and 20, so I'll just say absolutely. CJ Allen and Jacob Rodriguez feel like it's way too rich to do at 20, but I would still love Jacob Rodriguez on my football team. How's that?
- [42:20]
A
I love that. Yeah. And we get into so many times, well, it's just too early. Okay. But if you really believe this guy is going to be a perennial All Pro, then don't get so worried about eight or ten positions where you take him. Mine is I've thrown out. Maybe I just like monkey wrenches because I think this would throw a monkey wrench and all sorts of draft projections and I think teams would freak out. I think Cowboy fans would freak out. I still think if at 12, the Big Six are gone from the defensive side of the ball and somehow I don't think he's going to. But somehow Jeremiah love slips to 12, huh? I don't think it's a dumb idea to take him. He's the best player. And man, you talk about making a dynamic offense even better. I think he'd hit home runs for you next year and I think you'd have an incredible running game and what this is an if. But just what if your offensive line progresses another step, then what? How much easier is Dax Job if he has a ground game like that? And I don't know. I think, I don't think that's crazy.
- [43:41]
B
No, I don't think it's crazy either. George and I would once again repeat something we've said in previous episodes, but let's get everybody caught up to speed. The object of this off season, the object of this draft and the object of those two first round picks is to make the Dallas Cowboys better. Not to make the Dallas Cowboys defense better.
- [44:03]
A
That's right.
- [44:04]
B
They can, they can be the same thing, but not necessarily the same thing. And so I would just say from where I sit, the premise of taking Jeremiah Love is not insane. So I'm not going to push back. I agree with you. I think you're right. And it would feel weird, but then we'd all go on with our lives and probably high five because Jeremiah Love would be so much fun.
- [44:37]
A
Don't you think that if he is available in that scenario, let's say they can't trade up to six and they're still at number 12 and it comes to them and don't you think some chairs push away from the table and they kind of look at each other and go about that?
- [44:53]
B
Yeah.
- [44:53]
A
And I think it's a, I don't think it's out of bounds to say that's a, that's a serious discussion at the star of. Okay, how about this? What if we took the, I don't know, maybe the fourth, fifth best player in the draft at number 12?
- [45:09]
B
And people say, well, you already did Javante Williams. My response to that is Jeremiah Love does not live in Javante Williams neighborhood. They're. They're you. Javante Williams is a nice NFL running back. Jeremiah Love to me reminds me of Adrian Peterson. And so first of all, I'd love to have both of them. Second of all, William's contract is very reasonable. No big deal. If he's my backup, that's just fine. So I in no way want to be thought of as the guy who's pushing for this, but there are scenarios where you have to at least consider how much better the Dallas Cowboys would be if they leave the draft with Jeremiah Love. So I'm, I'm not going to in any way try to block that shot. George. I think it's a pretty good one. Our last one is from Greg, or more specifically Greg's burner Greg. So if you were going to have a burner account, I respect the idea of calling it your burner for everybody. He wants us to pick a combo with our two picks, so he gives us three choices. All right, Number one, Caleb Downs and Jacob Rodriguez. Number two, that one, Sonny Stiles and Trey Dan Stooks, the very impressive corner from Arizona, and number three, Mansoor Delane and Malachi Lawrence. First of all, it sounds like you're offering us three different supermodels and saying which one would be best to take to a nice dinner. So I don't feel like there's a wrong answer here, because down Stiles and Delane are each in the big six, and Rodriguez, Stukes and Lawrence would instantly be very important pieces of my defense. I like all of them. In fact, on the Bob Big board, Malachi Lawrence is number 45 and trade, and Stukes is at number 53, and Jacob Irigas is listed at number 30. So my answer, which I think you knew when you asked this, Greg would be Caleb Downs and Jacob Red right there with you. We would be cooking.
- [47:39]
A
Yeah.
- [47:40]
B
However, if I leave with Styles and Stukes, I feel like that's a massive win. And if I leave with Delaine and Lawrence, it's probably my third favorite of those three situations. But Monsoon, Delaine and Malachi Lawrence, I've made my team way better with those two picks, so I'm. I'm in on that, too.
- [48:00]
A
Yeah, I like all of those. The problem with me on draft day is I. I play favorites, and I've now his tape backs it up, but, man, I just. On Jacob Rodriguez, man, I just think his mustache. I think the whole story, I think just in talking to people, attack. Hearing some, you know, off the field, nothing but good stuff about him. I. Yeah, And I think. I bet he goes higher than we think, just because I think there's a number of teams that are falling in love with him, and, you know, he interviews well, and then you put on his tape and it's like, geez, who is that dude?
- [48:41]
B
Yeah. Do you think Bob Lilly and Randy White and Harvey would have enjoyed playing?
- [48:46]
A
Oh, yeah. That's the other thing. Man, he looks like a Cowboys linebacker from the 70s. Yeah, it'd be awesome. Bring it back.
- [48:53]
B
Doomsday George, let's go.
- [48:56]
A
Okay. I've got a question, too, because we haven't. We haven't really said much about this in the last couple of weeks, and this could be part of draft day. Let's. Let's go there next as we finish up there. What do you say about that there, Bob? Yeah, Football Friends. Okay, so there's so much talk about the Cowboys trading up the number six, and then that would leave them with the decision at 20. Do they trade down? What about other trades? Bob, this has gone kind of quiet here the last week or so when you. Every day I do the search Cowboy trade rumors and just see what comes up. Not much this week. And what about the draft day trade for a veteran, someone who wants to get another pick maybe this year and maybe they want a pick from you next year? What about that? Do you think that is a possibility? And what about the Mad Max thing? Is that, is that still out there? And I've got this, as we try to make predictions, I've got this feeling that they will make some sort of trade for a veteran defensive player.
- [50:13]
B
Well, I don't think that's crazy at all. I remember a previous Football Friends episode, although I have no idea which one. Shirley Peter has transcribed them all. But, but the idea that we did talk about, they will be on the clock on draft night and the Raiders will want to move up and the name Max Crosby will be exchanged. And you don't know what the response will be. This is the thing about draft night and having some guys in your front office that are willing to move quickly with these ideas. I assume there are scenarios under which the Miami Dolphins and Jordan Brooks is in play, the Las Vegas Raiders and Max Crosby's in play. I don't know what players moving out might be appealing to other teams, but maybe George Pickens is actually on that list somewhere. I do think it's relatively unlikely that it would happen on draft night, but I do know that if teams fancy a player at a certain spot, you do have that sort of immediacy and pressure point to say let's go ahead and pull the trigger. So honestly, it is interesting to me that the Bengals and the Giants did that deal in advance of draft night, knowing that it's for pick number 10. Because if I'm the Giants, I'm only interested in that pick if it's for this guy, this guy or this guy. Well, what if they're all gone? And this is, you know, it's always interesting to me. We've, we've had this before. In fact, the most famous one probably is the 2016 draft when the Rams traded up, I think twice to get to Jared Goff. And, and you also had the Eagles trading up to get Carson Wentz. And a lot of, you know, that was all the way to the top at the end. But I think they, I think it's really weird to do a trade in advance of the draft knowing that other teams can do other trades to get in front of you again. So if you're going all the way to number one, no big deal, we can do that. But if I'm only going to 10 or if I'm going to 6, then I need to know who's left on the board or I feel really silly about things. I suppose if I'm the giants, there are 10 guys that I'm more than happy to trade the rights to Dexter Lawrence for. And so they just said there's 10 guys, right? We, we did. We went, we went, looked at our board and we said this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy and this guy. Okay, yeah, yeah, there's 10. So no matter who's gone, we're going to get one of those ten. Okay, let's do it. And so that's, that's a very, very faith filled move that does not require you to see all the names. Whereas I think the only time I want to do a deal with the Browns is when I specifically know who I can grab at 6. And so I can't really say Downs because what if Downs has gone at 5? I can't say Styles because what if Styles has gone at 5? Now maybe if I'm the Cowboys, I say I'll take either one because whatever one I take there that informs my next decision. But I'm more than happy to marry my next decision and the one after that to getting one of these two transformational guys. And if I do, I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I'm only calling Cleveland when the Giants turn their pick in. Yeah, and the same would be true with New Orleans at 8. The same would be true with moving back. I just, I think any team has to know what's there. And so, you know, at 12, if the Raiders call you and say, man, we want Jordan Tyson to pair him with Fernando Mendoza and you're like, well, he's here. You sure you want him? Because we're going to need Max Crosby to do that. And now that's the makings of a really exciting draft day trade I've seen,
- [54:27]
A
as we speculate on, at least throw some names in there for veterans that they could trade for. What do you think of the Kenny Moore story? The corner from Indianapolis that apparently is in a contract dispute is over 30 now. He's been a really productive player. It cost you somewhere between a 4th and a 7th round pick. Seems like the Cowboys love to give up a fourth round pick almost every year. What'd you think about something like that?
- [54:58]
B
I love Kenny Moore. I really do. There have been times over his career where he has been an absolute dude. I will confess he's at that age where we should be careful. I haven't looked at his contract. Do you have a feeling for that?
- [55:18]
A
He wants to be extended. I think he has one more year on it after this year.
- [55:23]
B
Okay. Yeah, one more year at about. Well, he signed 3 for 30. I think it's backloaded a little bit. Might be one more year at 13 and then he wants an extension on top of that. He's one of those guys we should look at and study. But Kenny Moore has a great reputation in this league as a dynamic slot and maybe he's a nickel, but remember, if we're looking for a big nickel, Kenny Moore's tiny. He's 5, 9, 1, 90, which by the way, you can live with. But you just have to know exactly what Christian Parker wants. But Kenny Moore has played enough big time years at a big time level that you certainly have to consider what he could do short term. I would just say my initial thought would be why weren't we in more on Minka Fitzpatrick?
- [56:17]
A
Right.
- [56:18]
B
And maybe there's an answer. But Minka, to me, at his age and at his eventual price, which was next to nothing, and he's only 29 years old, I, I'm a little bit confused on why the Cowboys did not beat the jets offer. The jets traded a seventh round pick for Minka Fitzpatrick and then gave Minka a three year, $40 million deal back in March. And that was the guy I had circled because I obviously have always fancied his work and that one was interesting. So when they did not want Minka, I started wondering what their plan was at nickel because Minka is good size 6, 1, 2, 10 or so, and he runs well and he can cover well. Seems to check all the boxes. And then, then that had me wondering, are they trying to really zero in on Caleb Downs or Dylan Thieman? And you know, just there's so many things. But again, I would argue this is true in the draft game and in the free agent game, George. We lock in on specific names. Whereas if you work in an NFL front office, you have to have a stack of 10.
- [57:35]
A
Yeah.
- [57:36]
B
And. And evaluate each one and say, okay, at the right price, this guy can be our answer. But maybe it's this guy and maybe it's this guy. And so they don't say I have to leave the draft with Jacob Rodriguez. They say, we really like him, we prefer him. But here are five other guys we think can also do the job at their price points. And so you're making a series of compromises and pragmatic choices based on all of the pieces on the chessboard because it, a football roster has so many decision tree, you know, things to consider that are all happening simultaneously. So that part is endlessly fascinating to us. But that's why you, you try not to ever pay the wrong price for somebody, is because these guys are all interchangeable assets except for at the very top, you know, Patrick Mahomes is not interchangeable. But most every football player has a type a group they belong in. And at the right price, Kenny Moore can do that job. But what about this guy who's not 32 going on 33, who wants a big money extension? What if we got this 26 year old or this draft pick at pick 92 that we just did with Osa? What if he can do that? So again, we're trying to do this with such limited information on what they're looking at that I would say I think we're on the right path. But that could mean a number of names like dude who thought Rashawn Gary was going to be with the Dallas Cowboys at the end of last season.
- [59:18]
A
You never know.
- [59:18]
B
But yet here we are. So you never know one other name
- [59:21]
A
just because it's out there. As I search Cowboy trade rumors and this one's been up there for, we may have even talked about this guy, Jordan Brooks, linebacker with the Dolphins. Apparently he is, he's out there. Maybe it's a deal that the Cowboys make after the draft if they don't land the linebacker that they wanted to in the, you know, the third round or if they trade up to the second round or something like that.
- [59:49]
B
Huge fan of Jordan Brooks. Yeah, he started slow in Seattle. Another Texas Tech guy. I, you know, I think the world of him. And he's also at that age where you don't mind giving him a nice contract because I do think he's on the final year of his deal in Miami.
- [60:05]
A
28.
- [60:06]
B
I do think, I do think the new Miami regime has talked about they do want to extend him and they want him as part of their future. 6 1, 2, 45 plays every game, stops the run incredibly well, is a good blitzer, gets into the backfield, plays physically. You know, we have heard, I think Shoddy said this. I'm trying to remember when he did maybe at the owner's meeting. He was saying that Christian Parker has told him that the two linebacker spots that he uses are interchangeable, which means we don't have a mic and a will. We have two guys. You know, it's almost like safety, where you're like, well, back in the day, this guy was my free and this guy was my strong. But now we want guys who can do both so that we can confuse quarterbacks. Well, that's kind of where this linebacker thing is in this scheme. And so you are looking for guys who can do both. And Jordan Brooks is that guy. So that's, you know, that's a name that's been there all offseason. You're exactly right. The valuation is the key and also what you could get done in the draft. And so one deal I've heard is would you trade 20 for 30 and Jordan Brooks? Now, maybe that's laughable from Miami's perspective, but that's interesting to me. If Miami sees somebody at 20 they desperately want at any one of positions and boy, take a look at that Miami depth chart at wide receiver. I think I've done this with you. Jalen Tolbert's like their wide receiver one right now, right? That Jalen Tolbert.
- [61:50]
A
Yeah, that guy.
- [61:51]
B
So let's say, let's say at 20 they are looking at Omar Cooper or Casey Concepcion or Makai Lemon as they're. As their big time wide receiver. Would you drop back 10 spots, pick up Jordan Brooks, and then still have a pick at 30 to really help your defense as well?
- [62:13]
A
I'll say that. Yeah. I'll take that.
- [62:15]
B
Yeah.
- [62:16]
A
The Cowboys, I would do that.
- [62:17]
B
Right, right. So, you know, does Jordan Brooks want to resign in Miami and play for. For a team that feels like they're a ways away, maybe. But if he wants to come on home. Is he a Texas guy? He's a Texas Tech guy. I don't know.
- [62:33]
A
Yeah. I don't know if he. If he played high school ball here, but yeah, he's sure enough a Red Raider.
- [62:39]
B
Let's. Let's see. Oh, my gosh, George. Jordan Brooks was born in Dallas, Texas.
- [62:45]
A
Oh, man.
- [62:47]
B
And he moved to Houston where he grew up. He attended Stratford High School in Houston.
- [62:53]
A
Okay.
- [62:53]
B
What do you think of that?
- [62:54]
A
It's where Craig James went in it do believe. Yeah.
- [62:58]
B
But I do know it's time to bring our Jordan home.
- [63:03]
A
That's a deal. First, another name to throw out there.
- [63:05]
B
And that's a great name to throw out there. First team all pro 20, 25 are you kidding me?
- [63:11]
A
Yeah.
- [63:12]
B
NFL tackles leader 20, 25. Do you like tackles, George?
- [63:16]
A
I like it when the guy on defense gets the other guy on the ground.
- [63:21]
B
That's right. I do, too. Runs a 4, 5, 4. I like that as well from my middle linebacker. So. So, yeah, you don't have to convince me he would be. Let's see. Brooks became the fifth player since the year 2000 to reach 800 tackles in his first six seasons. And he joined. Check out this list. Roquan Smith, Patrick Willis, and Luke Keakley.
- [63:45]
A
Dang.
- [63:47]
B
Those are tackle machines.
- [63:48]
A
Yes. I'd be great. But you're right. If Miami's trying to establish an identity, that's a guy you want on your team. I couldn't see why they want to, unless they just want to go younger. And he's 28, you know, I can maybe see that angle of it, but, yeah, I think that's a guy you want to build your defense around. But, yeah, maybe. Maybe he's out there. And that's a deal the Cowboys could make at some point here in the next few days. Well, Bob, I can't wait to listen to you on our little radio station in Dallas here starting Thursday. And I know you're going to be loopy by Saturday, and I will be. And we'll do at least one more of these things next week. And then Bob's going to hibernate until training camp, and he's just going to.
- [64:41]
B
Can someone do the draft while watching hockey playoffs the entire time?
- [64:46]
A
I know one guy who can do it. I know one guy who can multitask like that and do just that. Well, this has been cool. This has been very informative for me leading up to the draft. You're awesome at this, Bob. You and Dominic have been really good, and it's been a lot of fun,
- [65:03]
B
honestly. And I mean this, as we kind of close, you know, a good portion of our football friends year. This has been so much fun. And I mean this when I say it. I dreamed of doing a Cowboys podcast with Georgie, and I told him that probably three or four years ago. And I'm so happy it finally lives.
- [65:23]
A
It took me two years to figure out what a podcast was, and then once we figured out what that was, I was like, sure, Bob, I'll do one of those with you. Yeah, sounds good.
- [65:31]
B
It's awesome.
- [65:32]
A
It's been great. And we'll do a big draft recap next week. How about that? Yeah, we'll see how they did. And, yeah, keep your fingers crossed if you're a Cowboys fan that maybe just like Bob started writing at the beginning of this season. Maybe this is going to be another dirty. It won't be a dozen. Half dozen, maybe. Maybe a half dozen. Really good.
- [65:52]
B
We trade down enough times, we could get a dozen.
- [65:55]
A
Yeah, you keep trading down, you get it up to 13 or so.
- [65:59]
B
All right.
- [65:59]
A
Awesome. Thanks to Peter Welton for producing us for Bob Sturm. I'm Giorgio. We'll talk again next time on Football Friends. The Hammer alley podcast.
- [66:16]
B
An 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley.
- [66:26]
A
Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987.
- [66:33]
B
Hammer Alley.
- [66:34]
A
Ever heard of them? To rock bottom. Dude. I was born in 1987. Oh, I can't believe he's doing this.
- [66:41]
B
Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.