A (2:59)

And they finally did in 22. And then you know what? They made the playoffs in 23, which they had not gone to the playoffs three consecutive years since literally the Dynasty Cowboys of 91 to 96, they went six consecutive years. And so unfortunately we get used to it. And, and we're back in that slog where four of the last seven years the Cowboys have missed the playoffs altogether, four of the last seven now.

B (3:33)

So there's, that's a lot. And there's bitter disappointment and we go back and forth between trying to piece together what happened this season. From what you said about a week ago, I just need a break from this team for a couple of months. But we don't do that here. No. On the music, the podcast Cowboys edition, we will not. We're going to slog through this off season, by golly. And we got something really special coming up next week that I think is going to be a lot of fun for all Cowboy fans.

A (4:04)

Yes.

B (4:04)

But as we last left you, as we look back and now the players going through their exit interviews and they're with their coaches and also with the media in saying things to the media, the head, the head honcho of this team, the leader of this team, Dak Prescott, who we both defend and have defended even in his poor years, had a great season. But he also said something that got you. What was that, Bob?

A (4:38)

Well, yeah, there's a quarterback quote and an owner quotes that I would like to visit with you about. And yes, thank you for leading me into the Dak one. So, yes, I do believe that I annoy people by how much I defend Dak, which is ironic because many of them are Tony Romo people or just sick and tired Cowboy fans. But what's interesting is I used to get these same attacks for being too defending of Tony Romo. So, so I guess I would like to just say consistently, I think quarterbacks in this city post Aikman have an impossible job of living up to Staubach and Aikman. It's just, it's, it's an incredible burden. And there's not even an NFL MVP would not quiet the unrest. Right. Like, like Dak could win three consecutive MVPs unless he delivers a Super Bowl.

B (5:39)

That's right.

A (5:40)

They will, they will not get off his case. And there's a possibility even if he did that it would still be qualified where, you know, whatever it took you long enough or whatever it may be.

B (5:49)

So I almost said the defense carrying, but we all know that can't happen around here right now.

A (5:54)

No, but you're Right, you're right. There would be, there would be cutouts, there would be carve outs, if you will. I should say, because Dak didn't get it done right away and Romo didn't get done right away and whatever. So that's, that's kind of my positioning statement. But when I heard Dax say what he said, which I will read to you now in a direct quote, this is one of the first seasons, if not the first of my career, I can't directly correlate my play to the wins or losses or the end of the season or overall success of the season. So that makes it frustrating. One of the best offenses in the league. Explosive now, sure, not always to our standard. Didn't play like that every week, week in, week out. But we put up a lot of points, unfortunately. Just didn't win all the games that we should have. Didn't finish out some of those one score close games on our end and ultimately leads to an 8, 9 and 1 record. It sucks, but it's the reality. They didn't win eight games. So I'm not sure where he got that.

B (6:56)

I think it's counting the Packer game as a win.

A (6:59)

I think it's a 7, 9 and 1 record. But, but who's counting? Unless you had the over. But, but I will say the first thing is what got my goat, which is this is one of the first seasons of my career. I can't directly correlate my play to the wins or losses or the, of the season or the overall success of the season. And you know, obviously he's right in a sense that the offense should feel less blame and less frustration from the public. But at the same time, I, I know that Dak Prescott is the highest paid player in the National Football League and I know this offense has been given. I should look it up to be exactly sure, but I would guess about 75% of the money resources of this roster go to the offense. And that will only rise when they keep George Pickens and the draft pick. Capital goes to the offense, like every resource goes to the offense. So when you kind of tank the entire month of December, I guess I don't want to hear that your performance doesn't correlate to the team missing the play.

B (8:14)

Yeah, you just can't say it if you're the leader of this team. And it may sound like a sports cliche, but you have to say, I didn't do enough. And it starts with me. I'm the quarterback of this team.

A (8:26)

This falls on all of us.

B (8:27)

This falls on all of us. And it reminds me, I didn't see this happen in real time, but my old coaching buddy, the great Daryl Dickey, used to coach at North Texas, used to tell coaching stories and one of the funniest ones that ever, that always stuck with me was the story he told about Steve Spurrier, the old ball coach, when he was at Florida. And it was one of those games where Florida was in a shooting match and they got beat 42 to 39 or something like that. And apparently they go into the time with the coach media room and, and Spurrier opened his press conference by saying, hey, kids, played hard, offense played great. I can't say enough about my offense today. Here's my defensive coordinator to answer to you. What happened on the other side left. And I don't know if that really happened or not, but it made for a great story. And this DAC quote reminded me of that, of, hey, I played great, we missed the playoffs, but don't look at me, I did my part. And it just. You can't say it.

A (9:35)

No, you can't say it. And, and I get the sentiment. And we, we asked so much of this offense this year and, and you know, that's fine. The fact is, in my opinion, they, they kind of failed, man. And, and you know, if, I don't know, I don't know what's fair. That's, that's the thing is, is people want to say, well, what, what do you expect? What's fair? How did you allocate and where do you put your resources? And I, you know, I would just say if, if I'm going to put everything on the offense, money wise, then it's okay to expect them to do 75% of the heavy lifting. And I know that drives people nuts. Here it is, let's see, according to spot track. Well, this is going to factor in Mica, isn't it? But it's. The offense has $205 million of the cap and the defense has 114 million. So 205 million versus 114 million.

B (10:47)

And for the defense, three of those guys are defensive tackles.

A (10:51)

Yes. So. So put another way. Yeah, that's a great point.

B (10:55)

Making 20 some odd million.

A (10:57)

Yeah. In fact, the Cowboys spend more money on interior defensive line than any team in the league. This is interesting at cap allocations on spot track and I don't know if you've ever looked at this, Georgie, but they, they give you league rank for each spot on the roster. So I, let's. Let's do it. Defense. They're the ninth highest spending defense in the league, which is wild because they're only 29th at edge defender, 20th at linebacker, 16th at corner, which included Trayvon, 14th at safety, which is a bad allocation because your safeties are pretty spare. And the number one team in the NFL at defensive line, non edges interior. So the number ninth spending defense is interesting to me. Number fifth offense, number fifth, number five. They spend the 16th most on offensive line because all these guys are on rookie deals now. 10th most at tight end, 10th most at wide receiver. That's about to shoot up. They spend the 26th most at running back and the second most at quarterback. They are the fifth highest allocated offense.

B (12:17)

Well, and that's going to shoot up not only with Pickens, but I, I think they're going to try to get Javante Williams back and that'll. Yeah, that's going to make them the highest paid offense in the league next year.

A (12:29)

So. Yeah. So if you say, well, gee, I wish our defense could equal our offense, well, your, your team isn't built that way. By the way. Most teams in the NFL are not built that way money wise. That, that stands to reason. Of course there are, there are obvious reasons for that, including the fact that quarterbacks play offense and quarterbacks are easily the highest paid position in the NFL. So this is not a massive shock or a massive outlier. I just need the quarterback to understand how the math works. Yeah, that, that if you know, you have Micah Parsons and you want to go get Max Crosby as your other edge, you can be a great defense man. Imagine that defense across the front with Quinn and, and either Kenny Clark or Oso Diggie Zoo. I probably can't have three defensive tackles making that much money, but you get the idea. Yeah, but now I can't pay my quarterback 60 million Dakota. So how are we going to make this work? You know, so, so that's the, that honestly, I think Dak is a 10 out of 10 in terms of a leader and in terms of saying the right things at the right time. This is, this is probably a nitpick by me. I just don't want to hear that you win seven games, you're in a position to make the playoffs if you just have a strong December. We've talked about this. I get you're going to lose to Detroit probably. But then I'm going to need you to run the table and beat the Vikings at home, the Chargers at home, who the Patriots had no problem beating this weekend, you know, because they're just not that good. And then the Giants and the Commanders to, to finish. And Now I've got four more wins or three more wins than I have. Instead of seven, I'm at 10, I make the playoffs and my quarterback gets all the credit he deserves. I just don't want him to distance from the outcome when the offense totally, totally laid an egg against Minnesota and the Chargers and frankly the Giants. But of course, the Cowboys weren't totally serious about that game.

B (14:31)

Well, it brings up this I'm just going to throw this at you because I heard this ask of us this week on, on a radio show by longtime NFL reporter, the great Ed Worder, and he had a really good question in this salary cap world that we live in and the Cowboys have no choice about this the next couple of years. They're married to a quarterback that they're paying a lot of money and they're going to have to try to do their best here in the next three years to piece together a defense and let it fly, see what happens. But if you were just building from scratch, let's say when it's time to rebuild this team, would you rather have a great quarterback and just kind of an okay defense? Let's say it's middle of the pack defense or would you have a great defense? Whatever your opinion is after watching this last weekend, let's say the Houston Texans defense and just a good quarterback. What would you rather and few years ago I would have said, well, the quarterback. But in a day and age now where the running games come back, we've seen some really good defensive teams win in the last couple of weeks, in the last couple of years. I don't. I think it's a really good question. Number one, I think I would lean towards give me a dominant defense and a functional offense. But I think that's most would think that's backwards thinking.

A (16:03)

Yeah. And I would not to bog it, but I would ask for a qualifier on how good of a quarterback am I getting? Am I getting Josh Allen?

B (16:12)

What if Seattle wins it this year?

A (16:15)

Yeah. Well, that's a great example of the other way, right?

B (16:20)

To me, that's a great defense.

A (16:22)

Defense.

B (16:22)

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a great defense.

A (16:24)

And a guy who, nobody, who nobody would say is a top 10 quarterback.

B (16:30)

No, no, I don't think you can say that about Sam Darnold.

A (16:34)

San Francisco most years Purdy is probably a fringe top dozen, top 10 type quarterback. And if Nick Bosa and Fred Warner are out there, you might say San Francisco is that team. And they had Mahomes on the ropes in the Super Bowl.

B (16:51)

Yeah. Hey. And that's why I think Houston has it. We'll talk about the divisional round that's coming up at later in the in the podcast. But it's starting to make me think Houston has a really good chance in this thing just because their defense is so exceptional.

A (17:08)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's, it's, it's a really, really solid question. And there are so many variables like offensive line and health and all that sort of thing, but in a vacuum, I feel like this is where the league is headed, is that the league realized we can't find another Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen. Like, if you say those are the two best quarterbacks in the league, which I would, no disrespect to a few of the others, but those are the two best quarterbacks in the league. And I don't think it's real close. And so if I can have one of those, I got to have one of those. And I probably got to pay him whatever he wants. And, and, and frankly, Josh Allen should be the highest paid player in the league given everything Buffalo puts on his plate if Mahomes isn't. But I think Josh Allen did not get in a massive pissing match with his organization like Dak did. And by the way, the organization is to blame, not the, not the player. I know this. The fans of the Cowboys love to blame the player for wanting to be treated with respect and with, with lack of headache negotiations. Buffalo gets in a room with Josh Allen and says, buddy, we're so lucky to have you here. Now, we want you to understand the realities of what we're dealing with, but we also want you to feel like you're our number one, you're our guy. And, and so they do a deal and there's no drama and there's no back and forth and there's no tug of war. And it's done easily, just like the Chiefs did Mahomes, just like so many teams do their quarterback contracts, whereas the Cowboys kind of made it a five news cycle event that went on for two franchise tags in a long, long time. So when people get frustrated that Dak Prescott's the highest paid player in the league, you've got two guys to thank, Steven and Jerry Jones. And by the way, Steven is on record as admitting it. He has literally admitted it into a microphone that we made a mistake by dragging out the DAC thing so long. So I, I, I think they will even tell you that they messed up and now they have to live with messing up. And I just don't think that was a smart thing to do, is to make sure Dak makes more money than Josh Allen. That's crazy. But it's like an own goal. But anyway, I, I don't mean to get off the tracks here because the question is a great one, and I wanted to circle back to all the teams in the league. So there's. If I just told you Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are the gold standard, which they are, then 30 other teams are trying to win championships. And I think this is a great indicator of where the NFL has gone in the last 10 years. Where these scheme guys, like who. Who do we say are the best scheme guys? McVeigh and Shanahan and Ben Johnson. And you know, you can. You can go down that list of who has the best offense as well. It all comes from. I don't have one of these special, special quarterbacks. So I need my system as quarterback friendly as I can get. Which. What does that mean? Well, that means yards after catch. That means more of a point guard than a gunslinger. Where I hurt. Yes. I get the ball out fast. I'm making short passes that have a higher degree of success. And then I let my playmakers try to do things in space. And I'm using motions and shifts and. And route combinations that attempt to find space. And of course, that's the old football coachism, is that the object of football is to. For an offense to create space and for a defense to take space away. That's if you want to know what football is, that's the game of football. So that's the answer right there, I guess, is that these teams are saying, we can build a defense, we can't build a superstar quarterback. We have to almost luck into one. And therefore, let's be pragmatic about what the market has and build on that and then try to design an offense that does not require the best quarterback in the sport to find success. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, and it's probably convoluted, but that's the best answer I could say is I would always want Josh Allen, I would always want Patrick Mahomes, but they. They're not available. The team that's lucky enough to draft them will never let them leave their building. And so I'm. I'm one of these other 30 teams, and I'm trying to build a winner. I've got to say. Build a defense, absolutely. That can help my, my quarterback finally win. Right?

B (21:57)

Yeah.

A (21:57)

Trent Dill for one. Jim McMahon won.

B (22:00)

Yeah.

A (22:01)

There's your answer.

B (22:02)

Unbelievable defenses. Yeah, absolutely. Now it's also. Those don't fall out of the sky either. You've got to build that over three or four years and that's a really hard thing to do. You got to hit in the draft. You got to have the right coordinator. You talk about scheme and all that. Just. Yeah, it was kind of out of left field question. But it just, it speaks to your DAC comment that I was with you. That kind of made me prairie dog up to thinking that doesn't sound like something Dak would say. Jerry says crazy things all the, all the time. What did he say that got your attention?

A (22:36)

Well, and this is, this is probably connected to that first conversation because when they did the end of season press conference, there was a ton of Micah talk. You know, we get asked all the time as media, especially me, because I was Micah fanboy number one, I guess, when he was here or at least in the conversation, because what a magical player to watch and what a unicorn I thought he was. And so I was not approving of a trade for sure. Now it helped soothe the wounds, I guess that they sent them to my childhood team. But, but, but that has nothing to do with my position on the Cowboys and Micah Parsons. I think the Cowboys made a horrible decision.

B (23:24)

And by the way, Jerry brought up Micah in the end of the. Into the press conference.

A (23:29)

Yeah, he at least twice.

B (23:30)

He was not asked about it. He brought it up.

A (23:32)

Yes. And so his quote was, quote, the very best of what we are trying to get involving the Micah Parsons trade is all out there ahead of us. We've got some of it on the field already. We're going to get more of it on the field and he goes on from there. But I just want everybody to know that even when we don't bring up Micah Parsons, Jerry is obsessed with convincing you and everybody that this can be another Herschel Walker trade. Yeah.

B (24:05)

And there will never be another Herschel Walker trade.

A (24:08)

There will never be another Herschel Walker trade. Now, at the core of the discussion is should you pay any Defender $45 million a year? And I guess, I guess on the books it actually is 47. I would argue in the Cowboys math it would have been 41 because they, they would have the, the fifth year option and then they could do the four year extension if they just did the packers deal. And I believe Jerry claimed that he actually guaranteed more money than the packers did, which Whatever. The point is, Jerry keeps bringing this up, and every time he brings it up, I do want to stick a fork in my eyeball, George, because it's so disingenuous what he's saying. And it's. It's without question based on the idea that he keeps trying to sell people that you can get six players for the price of Micah Parsons, which. Okay, I believe you, that you could get six players for $45 million. But then we have to actually put pen to paper, and you can't have it both ways. You can't say, I got Kenny Clark for Micah Parsons, and, boy, isn't Kenny great. And then we look at his. His. His cap sheet, and we see that Kenny Clark is over $20 million a season. So, you know. Okay, well, then can I subtract that from what you're talking about, The Kenny Clark aav, just so everybody's on the same page, is AAV is annual average value, by the way, is what that means. It comes in at 21.3 million. Okay? So if Micah's at 45, I'm going to take away 21.3 of Kenny Clark, and that's going to leave me at roughly 23 and a half. Okay, fine. Now I'm going to say, because he has that, that allowed us to do the Tyler Smith extension. Okay, well, let's see what Tyler Smith makes. If the AAV on Tyler Smith is where I believe it is, that puts it, oh, Tyler smith is making 24 million now on the extension. So you say I have six guys. You just gave that entire money to Tyler Smith and Kenny Clark. But wait, there's more. Duron Bland. I did a deal with him. And I also said that was because of the Micah Parsons deal. Duron Bland's average annual value is 22. 5. So Kenny Clark is 21 5, Duron Blanche, 22. 5, and Tyler Smith is 24. Okay, so now I'm at $67 million on three players. Now I'm going to trade for Quinn and Williams. Okay. And I'm also going to say that's because I did the Micah Parsons deal. Okay, let's do that. 21 million a season. So now I'm up to $88 million a year, George. Now I'm going to add the Hunter Lipke deal. Or I'm going to also say what he said last week, which was, this will allow us to do the George Pickens deal.

B (27:36)

Yeah, throw Pickens in there, too.

A (27:38)

Okay, well, we think George Pickens is going to be at roughly 25 to 30 million a year. We're already at 88 million. So let's say 25. And now we are at 2 or let's see, 113 million. So this is how it's working, guys. Is he's claiming the 60 or the 45 million a year that Micah would have got now equates to the six players I kept when I traded Micah that now cost $115 million. Yeah, George, as the kids say, that math doesn't. Math?

B (28:18)

No, it does not work out whatsoever. And it's, I guess it's, you know, Jerry's way of making him feel better. I. I was told this a number of times that he was pain in the ass. Parsons was. He just was. Now, was he worth putting up with? Maybe. I don't know. Time will tell on that deal. Let's go here. Coming up next, I got one question about Micah, and then we'll get into who's going to run this defense. Let's do that. Coming up on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. It's back. Hey, it's Dan Bongino. I've got some big news for you. Starting February 2nd, the show is back. That's right. The Dan Bongino show is relaunching and we're going bigger than ever. Join me live on rumble.com Monday through Friday, 10am to noon Eastern. We'll cover the stories that matter, cut through all the garbage and get to the truth. Can't catch it live? No problem. Grab the audio wherever you get your podcasts. Remember February 2nd, the return to the Dambongino show. Don't miss it. Football playoffs are here, and underdog is the best place to get in on all the gridiron action. Playing on underdog is easy. Just pick your favorite players and if they'll go higher or lower on stats like touchdowns, rushing yards, receptions, and more. Get them right and you could win up to 5,000 times your cash. Last week I took higher on Josh Allen's passing yards and I won big. Let's do it again this week. So what are you waiting for? Download the app today and use the promo code musers to score $75 in bonus entries when you play your first $5. That's promo code Musers. Underdog make picks win money must be 18, older, 19 or older in Alabama and Nebraska, 19 or older in Colorado for some games, 21 or older in.

A (30:09)

Arizona, Massachusetts and Virginia.

B (30:11)

And present in a state where underdog fantasy operates. Terms apply. See assets.underdogfantasy.com web playandgettermsdfs.HTML for details. Offer not valid in Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio or Pennsylvania. Concerned with your play, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit www.ncpgambling.org. in New York, call the 24.7HOPE line at 1-87-7,8, HOPE NY or text HOPE NY or 67369. Okay, Bob, I think this is. Again, here's another one out of left field as we talk about post mortem Cowboys, postseason Cowboys. If the Micah deal was not done, let's say he played this year for this team.

A (30:57)

Yes, sir.

B (30:58)

And everything else would have been the same. You know, just, it's a, it's a hypothetical. It's. It obviously changes a lot of different things. And they didn't do the Quinn and Williams deal and they just tried to survive with Micah and the bunch. What do you think their record would have been?

A (31:17)

So they, they don't help defensive tackle?

B (31:20)

No.

A (31:21)

So they don't have Kenny Clark. They don't have Quinn and Williams. They do have Mozzie Smith playing defensive tackle all season.

B (31:31)

Solomon Thompson, osa are your primary defensive tackles.

A (31:35)

I think it's disingenuous to say they would have been significantly better. So I won't, I won't try to run that by anybody. My, my issue is not that you don't have Michael Parsons. My issue is that when you traded him, you had no ability to deviate from your plan and to make a smarter plan. And, and I guess from a Micah Parsons standpoint, I'd like to think that, you know, you, you have him play this fifth year, you in his case, will want to ball out to earn his new contract. Now if he blows out his knee, that's a really interesting scenario we did not consider which did actually happen. So I guess Micah would lose his chance to go to free agency for all the, all the tea in China, if you will. That would have been interesting. And maybe he comes back to the Cowboys at a, at a greater discount, I don't know. But I, I think, I think the only way the Cowboys are going, going to get going to get better on defense is to significantly address defensive tackle while keeping Micah Parsons. Because really all you did is you just moved the furniture around. And I honestly wish Quinn and Williams was a little more obviously a superstar. Frankly, in those final two months, I don't know where you net out on him. I feel like almost like the Cowboys, he blew us away for those first couple weeks and then things got quieter with him. I thought Kenny Clark was Quiet all year, frankly. I think they're solid players. I just don't know if, if you're super close to a better defense because you flipped a elite edge for a couple really, really good defensive tackles. By the way, Quinn and Williams also two years older than Micah Parsons, so it's not like you even got younger or cheaper or anything like that. So I don't know, man, it feels like they're running in circles and that's why their defensive coordinator higher is going to be pretty important.

B (33:43)

Well, yes, and I think that's why they're looking at another defensive coordinator. It was, we said many times, wasn't all Matt Eber flu's fault, but the defense was just outrageous. And my answer to that is I still think you would have had a lot of problems. And it's my, it's a long way of saying you have so many problems on this defense. Before the season it was defensive tackle. Now that's been fortified. Now it's defensive end, it's linebacker, it's secondary. Where you're talking about. Over the next couple of years you're going to have to come up with 11 or 12 players. And I'm not just saying, oh, there's only 11 that start. No, I'm talking about the 11 that start and the three or four that are heavy in the rotation because I think you only have a handful of guys you can win with on this defense that's right now, which is going to be a. It's going to be tough to, to have anybody come in here and, and, and do what Dan Quinn did to do that. If it's Jonathan Gannon, the former Arizona coach, Jim Linhart is the defensive passing game coordinator for Denver. Whoever it is, or if you go within the organization, Aaron White Cotton, man, they're going to need some help from the draft. They're getting not only with where they are in the first round now at 12 and 20 currently, but in free agency. No. And Quinn came in, they signed a number of guys who came in here and they weren't Pro Bowlers, but they could play a little bit and they helped him, you know, take a big jump from 21 to 22. Whoever this person is, they're going to need the same thing. If you had to make a guess that the Cowboys next defensive coordinator is.

A (35:46)

I'm. I think I'll continue to shake the pom poms for Jim Leonard. Yeah, I think, I think Leonard is ready to roll. And I feel like we're guessing a little bit on what that defense would look like. But I think he pairs with Shoddy really well. And I think they have a relationship and I think when I hear one of them talk, it sounds like the other guy is talking. So they see football the same way. And I'd like to try that. I don't know if they can get them. I think they can. I don't know if they can. By the way, I think you should keep an eye on Green Bay because they've been paired with Jim Leonard forever and partly because he's a Wisconsin kid and partly because they've flirted with him in the past and it just didn't. The timing didn't work out well. If Jeff Halfley gets a head coaching job, which, gosh, we're going to need nine new head coaches in the NFL, George. So anybody who's a fringe, might he get a head coaching job? Guys probably getting a head coaching job. So I imagine Jeff Halfley is gone and even though his defense was ridiculous once Micah got hurt, which is ironic to say the least, but, you know, I would imagine Green Bay would be hot on Jim Leonard as well. And, you know, now it's just this big game of Thrones in the NFL that happens every year. But nine head coach openings, I don't think that's a record. But it is at the very high end of the normal range that usually I think averages out about six every every year. So we're, we're way past that now that Mike Tomlin has joined the party. So I think Jim Leonard, what about you?

B (37:31)

I would like to make the case for a guy that I know. I'm not. I'm not saying he is better than Leonard or Gannon or anybody else you could come up with, but I personally know, and I've known him since he was 18 years old, Zach, or he was a DeSoto kid, played very close to the Metroplex and played at North Texas back when I was doing the games. He was a 40 student. He was the smartest guy in the field. He was the best player on the field, probably the best linebacker to ever play at North Texas. And I think he was on his way to a really productive NFL career. And he had a neck condition very similar to Michael Irvins that ended his career prematurely. And thank goodness they found it before, like Irvin, before something terrible happened. So he was a terrific player. He, as has been the defensive coordinator in Baltimore last couple of years. They were top 10 in both points and yards last year. This year their offense put him in terrible position. They had A lot of injuries. The defense fell down. But he's from that Baltimore organization. He is a. He's a brilliant mind. He's young. He's 33. I think he relates to players. He's from the Mike McDonald tree, which. Working pretty well in Seattle. I just think if Leonard is the. Is the bell of the ball and go somewhere else, I'm giving you an alternative that I. I think would be pretty darn good. I don't know if he has a lot of familiarity with shotty, but I do think there are some in the organization that say we should go talk to Zach or. Because I was seeing certainly last year, this year, their season just disintegrated to the point where John Harbaugh was fired.

A (39:26)

But that's right.

B (39:28)

Last year he was seen as a young coach going places.

A (39:32)

I don't hate it. I don't. You know, obviously I'm going to judge Zach or on what little I know, and that is that, yeah, as you said, the Baltimore defense was pretty ridiculous this year, which. Which is kind of out of character for them, but there's probably a million mitigating circumstances and. And if the guy knows ball, the guy knows ball. So I'm. I didn't. I didn't know anything about his local connections, and so I didn't know what to expect or. Or frankly, what to say about the guy. But I. I will keep an open mind on Zach or. Because. Because he certainly is a prominent name and he certainly has put in nearly a decade in that Ravens staff. Although I think he went. I guess he went one year to Jacksonville.

B (40:21)

He was on the Urban Meyer staff.

A (40:23)

The Urban Meyer staff. Okay, okay. But then quickly returned back to Baltimore and, you know, since 2017, has been part of their staff. And so let's not judge them all on 2025. Let's. Let's look at the body of work of, you know, does Raven's defense in general evoke positive thoughts in our minds? And of course, the answer is yes. So, yeah, so.

B (40:47)

And he spent some time in their scouting department up there, too, so a personnel put him on the list. Who understands it. You know, I just know him as the. The kid who would walk on the team charter and say, how you doing today, Mr. Dunham? He's just a great person. He's just a great kid. He's the son of Terry or the former Washington tight end.

A (41:11)

Oh, nice.

B (41:12)

Okay. His brothers played tcu, Wisconsin. He comes from a football family. And anyone you talk to that knows Zach or is just a huge fan of his. So it's a name in case that the top names go somewhere else. Okay. Okay, how about this? You and I also die on this hill every year. And, man, I take on the show that I work on. It just. I feel like a man on an island because I. I could talk Hard Knocks every day. I just think it's the greatest show in television. A show that is dedicated to the behind the scenes of professional football.

A (41:51)

Yes, sir.

B (41:52)

I can't get enough of it. I just can't eat it fast enough. And so I was. I was really looking forward to this year because it's the whole division in season, NFC East. So you got the peak behind the curtains of the Eagles, whatever that was this year in Washington and the Giants and of course, the Cowboys. I will say this. I didn't like it as much as I thought I would. I liked it. I always love it. And I think there's some great scenes that we'll talk about here in a second. But it. I don't know, maybe I'm hearing the old noise, my. The noise that's around me more. And I didn't enjoy it as much, but it was still great. It's still. I mean, a year where. And maybe I built it up too much in my mind, like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be incredible. The dysfunctional Eagles. And then, you know, what happened? I don't know. I thought it was good, not great, and maybe I built it up too much. What do you. What do you think of Hard Knocks?

A (42:51)

Well, maybe the best indicator of what I thought of Hard Knocks is I've fallen a few weeks behind. And. And. Okay, well, I mean, look, you know, I love it and I will catch up, but it's weird to watch it in real time. I. In a weird way, I almost enjoy it more once my palate is cleansed. It's weird what January does to your brain about the past football season. I know I said last week, we need some time away to sort of rejuvenate. And I think part of that rejuvenation is, you know, getting on the treadmill in early March and popping in Hard Knocks and remembering the stretch run of a failed NFL season for the Cowboys. And frankly, the NFC east, the NFL films, hbo. People have to be thinking, are you kidding me? We picked a division with this much potential and not one of these teams turned out to be halfway interesting. I guess the Eagles were interesting.

B (43:55)

Oh, yeah. And. And, you know, and there gives you a front row seat of, oh, my gosh, what that happened to the Giants. And that was one of the things I was disappointed and I understand it. I wanted to see a little more of Sirianni versus A.J. brown, you know, which we didn't get to see in the final episode, but things that stood out. Brian Schottenheimer addressing his. His coaching staff after firing Matt Eber flu, I thought.

A (44:28)

Right.

B (44:28)

I thought was really good. I mentioned it on a couple of podcasts ago. Here the Cowboys are. Looks like they're about to get run at home by Philadelphia. And it's 21 nothing at one point. Right. Or 21 three or 21 six. Whatever. It was nothing.

A (44:46)

I want to say.

B (44:47)

Yeah, it was bad. And they cut back and shoddy on the sideline. You love football. Yeah, I effing love football. You know, it's just. I don't know, it's just a moment that I will never forget. And then the final episode, whatever you think of what you're getting, it's shot so beautifully. And the shots of Washington in Dallas and New York and Philadelphia at night as the season closes and it comes to an end. And that very feeling you were talking about, the sadness of when it's over. And they show the lights going out at the facilities and they, the Eagles are the last to go. And here they show Nick Sirianni and Jalen hurts and the team meeting room. It's just those two left. And then one of them's. We're going to be back. Yeah, no doubt we're going to be back. And whatever you think of those two guys right there's. Man, everything they dumped into the season and it's over. And they're the defending super bowl champs and this is the way they go out. It's still real to me and it's still beautiful.

A (46:02)

No, and you're right, you're right. And I applaud you for staying on schedule with Hard Knocks because I'm on.

B (46:10)

That wall for you, Bob. Hard Knocks.

A (46:11)

No, I know you are. And you know, I'll catch up, I always do. But. But I just needed some time away. I get it from the Cowboys head clutter and slow motion shots of Jerry's helicopter landing at the practice field and then he, he, he descends down the, the steps of his helicopter or whatever. The, the. Just, just like Darth Vader coming out of the Imperial Shuttle. And we have to, you know, I mean, the, the, the self importance is pairs well with Hard Knocks because they're all. They can't wait to get a slow motion shot of that because they.

B (46:52)

Well, I think they look at it and think, this is how Texas is this. That here's their practice facility and here comes the owner down the land on the practice field where they have to move players around. Yeah, Cowboys, you know.

A (47:06)

No, it's incredibly cowboys. And that's why at times I wonder if he actually thinks he's in the show Landman or one of, like, he. He definitely. I mean, this is what they say when they say somebody's a caricature of themselves. Right.

B (47:22)

That's what he's become. Yes.

A (47:24)

He is acting as he believes people want Jerry Jones to act.

B (47:28)

Yeah.

A (47:28)

Like, that's the entire. That's the entire Cowboy way these days. And that's why we do want to ram our head through some drywall when discussing where this team currently is and how it appears they may not emerge anytime soon.

B (47:43)

Well, I highly recommend.

A (47:44)

But we're not giving up.

B (47:45)

We're not giving up. And I highly recommend for anyone who hasn't seen it yet to watch Hard Knocks in season. It's still in on shoddy concept. What's that?

A (47:57)

We're still in on shoddy, right?

B (47:58)

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I liked what he said. And some are going to go, okay, he knew the king. And I'll tell you this, I did get the feeling for not the first time, but really it hit me upside the head. The biggest criticism against this show is or one of them. Well, you get to hear still what they want to say. As a coach, you know, a coach knows the camera's on. He knows he's got a mic, it's right in his shirt. Or it's, you know, it's somehow in his office or something like that. So he knows he's on the record, so he's going to be careful. And maybe they have some editorial can control over this thing. I wonder if the Eagle said to him, you're not putting all of that exchange between A.J. brown and Nick Sirianni on there. You're just not. And I get that. But when he addressed the coaching staff and one of the first things he said was, you know, call flutes and tell him you love him. I just. Number one, I think that's cool. These are human beings. My son's a coach, you know, and it comes down to wins and losses and did you win? Did you. Ah, you suck. Well, there's still humans. And even the coach who goes through the most brutal of seasons, he still worked 19 hour days and. Well, yeah, you know, no.

A (49:24)

And that's. That's what's important about Hard Knocks. In my opinion. And that's what I think draws you and I to football from this, from the perspective that we share and why I love chopping it up with you is, is that every one of these stories is founded on the, on the premise that this is a human and this is their story and they get one shot at this and, and you know, they don't get to redo their life. They don't get to hit reset. Like, like the thing about being a fan. And this resonates with me more because of the 1975 Cowboys journey I'm on, because in a weird way, that represents a team made up mostly of guys who have passed away. I mean, I don't. Is mostly the right term. Like they're all 25. Yeah, they're all 25 to 30 years old 50 years ago, ergo they're all 75 to 80 now. And many of them did not make their 80th birthday. So let's just call it what it is. I don't know if we did roll call on the 1975 Steelers Cowboys, how many are still alive, but the number dwindles every year and it's not going to get better. So from that standpoint, it reminds me that as a fan, every year there will be a Cowboys roster and we will watch cowboy football because that's what we do. But the names change and the guys who enter the league all have a dream of playing professional football. And the guys who leave the league sometimes with a broken body or something like that, you know, they might just have a short shot at things. Might have one year in the league or one game in the league. And, and these coaches might get one shot at being a head coach. And so it is endlessly fascinating to watch their stories play out. But also we do know that every year we'll get a new batch of stories. Like we will. We will be introduced to Dallas Cowboys this coming year that we've never heard of. And they will be 21 years old and we will get to see their entire story if we want to, which is cool. But we must not lose sight of the fact that every one of these guys is a human who is attempting to live their dream. And the stakes that they are, that they go by can sometimes be heartbreaking. That they just. Their best is not good enough. And, and, and so the fact that Shadi recognizes the human beings because he needed 50 some years to even get his shot at to being a head coach, despite being born in a head coach's house is not lost on Me. So I do appreciate that about him and I do appreciate that about Hard Knocks, because the origin of the show is basically, here are all these guys at training camp that will never be NFL stars. We want to introduce you to a few of them. They probably won't even make a team. They will never make an NFL regular season game. But we would like to tell you a few of their stories. And I think you and I just ate that up.

B (52:42)

Yes.

A (52:43)

Like, that's like the coolest thing ever to us.

B (52:45)

Yeah, it's great. It's great. All right, when we finish up, let's, let's discuss what the wild card weekend, which was really wild, showed us about the current state of the Cowboys. And we have something really special coming up for you next week on the podcast. We're going to talk about that next. Get ready for the Rush with Max Crosby.

A (53:11)

It's time.

B (53:12)

Don't miss the behind the scenes moments everyone's talking about, regardless of what they say. I'll take the Fine.

A (53:17)

I don't care.

B (53:18)

All pro defensive end Max Crosby takes you beyond the field with exclusive insights. I could say this because I played them. This is the rush. You guys already know what time it is.

A (53:29)

It was fire.

B (53:29)

And we'll be right back on the.

A (53:30)

Pod and we'll be talking about it next week.

B (53:32)

The Rush with Max Crosby.

A (53:34)

Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

B (53:38)

Greatest wild card weekend Bob, we've ever seen. If the divisional round this weekend is anything like last weekend, sign me up. Usually by the end of wild card weekend, I love it, but I'm a little bleary eyed and I'm thinking, gosh, I just don't know if I can watch another game. I couldn't wait for Houston and Pittsburgh on Monday night just because the first, whatever the number works out to be, what do we have? Six games was just fantastic. What did the weekend tell you about the current state of the Cowboys?

A (54:16)

That they're not far away. You know, I know some people leave the weekend saying, well, this proves they are far away. And okay, I guess I can see that perspective. But my, my undying optimism is always that these teams that made the playoffs, some of them just barely made it. And then all six of the NFC teams that played this week, Carolina, Rams, Packers, Bears, Eagles, Niners, every one of them either won their game or is going to spend the next few months saying, how did we lose that game?

B (54:49)

Yeah.

A (54:50)

And that's the margin in this league. That is the margin from top to bottom. Roger Goodell, Paul Tagliabu, Pete Roselle, who, whatever the forefathers are of this league, they wanted to build a league that is incredibly close from top to bottom. The parody is real. The cap has done its job. This sport is amazing because there is almost no margin. I do love other sports that have the opposite setup. English soccer and Major League Baseball, where the margins between the best and the worst are miles and miles and miles and miles. But this sport is unique because you're always not far away. You're always one year away. And I think this expresses to me once again that, yes, the Cowboys are a mess, but they're not a bigger mess than some of these playoff teams were one year ago today. So I know you're not hiring Ben Johnson, but the Chicago Bears are the next example. The Jacksonville Jaguars, the Houston Texans. You know, many of these teams that have risen up this year, you know, they were a mile away one year ago. And so. So that's. I guess that's my takeaway, George, is details matter. But also, this league is designed to make you feel like the 12th best team in the NFC actually isn't that far away from the top.

B (56:24)

Yeah, I. I think that the only thing that really made me think, holy cow, how much work do the Cowboys have to do was watching some of these defensive units play. Oh, yeah, we've talked about watching Houston, watching New England. Heck, even, you know, Pittsburgh, even though they didn't win the game, I. That game got out of hand. But I thought their defense played really well throughout, you know, and what the 49ers did here, they're okay. I couldn't wait to talk to you about this. Yes, Eric Kendricks is out there. He's playing for the 49ers, and he makes the play of the game.

A (57:05)

Bob, his whole game was great, and.

B (57:07)

He had 10 tackles in a playoff game. And we. You and I are wondering back in October. Yeah. Where is he? He played for the Cowboys last year. I think he'd. I know he'd be better than anybody who played linebacker for the Cowboys this year.

A (57:23)

You're exactly right. Yeah, that's. You know, and. Okay, now I'm going to go back the other direction. I just got done saying the Cowboys aren't that far away, but that 49er culture, that Eagles culture, makes you feel like you are light years away. And the 49ers, man, what a great story. I know a lot of people listening to this can't stand that franchise.

B (57:45)

Maybe it's the boombox that brings it out in them. Every playoff game, they still got the boombox. Maybe that still works.

A (57:51)

Love the boombox, George.

B (57:53)

Why do too. And they're all.

A (57:54)

And they all know the words.

B (57:56)

Brock Purdy did. No, all the words. But he was into it and it is great. Yeah, I loved it.

A (58:01)

Well, yeah, I mean, what I love about the 49ers is it truly is next man up. It isn't some cute thing you say. It's something you live and. And man, to have that many guys gone. And. And I. I went through it on the show the other day. I want to say their top six contracts, all of them were either beat up or lost for the year this year. So Nick Bosa, like week three, Fred Warner, I think week six, Brock Purdy missed two months. Brandon Iuk never played a single snap. George Kittle just blew out his Achilles. And Trent Williams missed several weeks with a hamstring. So those are your six biggest earners and they went six for six with the injury gods grabbing each one of them.

B (58:56)

Dang.

A (58:57)

And yet they roll out a team of kind of no names who understand the assignment and say if Saquon needs to be tackled, if A.J. brown needs to be tackled, if Dallas Goddard needs to be tackled, I am going in there like, this is the most important tackle of my life. I have to get him to the ground. There is no olay bs. There is no, you know, man, I'm going to let someone else tackle him because I don't want to break a nail right now. I mean, 49er football is real now. Here's what's funny, George. They've got a longer super bowl drought than the Cowboys, so it's a little weird. Championing the 49ers is a team I'd like to be the most because they've.

B (59:46)

Been though and they've been doing a lot of title games and. Oh, yeah, yeah.

A (59:50)

Oh, yeah.

B (59:50)

Heck, divisional games and all that.

A (59:52)

Yeah. I don't want anyone to get confused here. I'm not saying the Cowboys have been more successful over the last 30 years. I am saying 49ers fans are frustrated as heck that they don't have a Lombardi trophy since they were all in high school either. But yeah, that organization knows what they're doing. And there's just sort of a pride that when I put on this uniform, I have a standard I have to exceed. And I almost thought Erik Kendricks must have felt that he has to play at a certain level right now because they just gave me a 49ers uniform and I just put it on and so I know, I know What I must do. And I thought he chased Saquon around the field like a maniac, and I thought it was a really cool thing to see and, you know, it's just. Yeah, that's another story about the NFL is that every year about Christmas time, these contenders go find an old veteran who hasn't played all year and say, bro, remember when Eric Weddle was called in by the Rams and their super bowl year? He. He had retired the year before and they're like, I know it's week 17, bro, but we need you. We're about to go on a Super bowl run. And they did. And that's, that's all he played, I think, were playoff games that year. And, and, but he had to do a lot for them. And that's just such a cool thing that these guys, you know, the bat phone or, you know, the signal is up in the air over Gotham and they, they get to, they get to headquarters and help and it's, it's a, It's a really cool element of our game.

B (61:28)

By the way, you mentioned George Kittle towards Achilles in the game, but his legendary status goes up. Apparently this is true. Someone asked him as he's getting into the locker room, what do you need? And he said, a bottle of tequila. And that was delivered to the locker room. And I don't know how much of it was gone when his teammates got there at the end of the game, but they all took rips of tequila after they knocked off the Eagles. I don't know how George Kittle is that and what a great story that is. Sad story, but, you know, legendary status for him, that. That's all he needed was the mass. The pain of a torn Achilles, which just must be excruciating pain. And then the pain of knowing his season is over and how are they going to do this without him?

A (62:15)

Don't they do that in old westerns where.

B (62:17)

Yeah, just.

A (62:18)

Yeah, the tequila, while I'm digging a bullet out of your. Out of your arm or something like that.

B (62:23)

Yeah, exactly. That'll. That'll mask the pain now.

A (62:26)

I love Kittle. He's going to be 33 by the time he heals and. And you know, I, I don't think the Niners have much left, but. But that, that is a courageous win of substance, you know, and like the Zombie Niners go into Philadelphia and knock off a Super bowl champion and, you know, it's just. Honestly, George and I kind of started with this, but I am curious how you consume the playoffs from a standpoint of do you just go straight shaded Freud and you just cheer against your enemies?

B (62:59)

Yes.

A (62:59)

And say if the Cowboys aren't going to win this year, I don't want the. The packers or Eagles or Niners to win either. Or how do you go?

B (63:07)

I go. Yes. It's usually Cowboy base. Sorry. That's why I was rooting against the packers to make that draft pick as good as possible.

A (63:15)

Yeah.

B (63:16)

And it got up to 20. Also, having lived in Chicago for seven years, I don't necessarily root for the Bears, but I know that the kids that I was still friends with in elementary school are hoping beyond hope that maybe for the first time in franchise history, or again at least since Sid Luckman, they finally have a quarterback who had plenty of doubts about. I did.

A (63:44)

Yeah.

B (63:44)

Before this year and what Ben Johnson has done with him. And then. Yeah. The rest of it is just kind of always root against the Eagles. Thought that was hilarious. That they get beat and yeah, I'm. And in kind of. I've never thought one thing or another about him, but I picked him before the season. I like Josh Allen. So I was rooting for the Bills, which was just an insane game against Jacksonville.

A (64:14)

Yeah.

B (64:15)

So yeah, I kind of go. I kind of blow with the wind.

A (64:19)

Well, I mean I wrote about this this week. There's a 3% chance your team wins a championship in any given year because 32 teams just kind of make it that way. Mathematically you're incredibly unlikely to win. But if you flip it around and say, okay, I just don't want the Eagles to win now, your odds go to 97% because you get the other 31 teams. And it's a much more rewarding way to follow SP is to cheer against teams than to cheer for a team.

B (64:55)

Yes.

A (64:56)

So. So sometimes just embrace the 97% and cheer against your enemies. And I think you'll find that a more of a year to year rewarding process.

B (65:05)

You'll find happiness. It may be with someone else's misery, but you'll find happiness at some point.

A (65:11)

That's right.

B (65:12)

In your football season. And okay, next week we got something really special. We've been telling you. Bob has been following the 1975 Cowboys. It's the 50th anniversary of the 75 Cowboys who won in Minnesota on the Hail Mary, then went on to knock off the Los Angeles Rams in LA and then met the Pittsburgh Steelers. And at the time, boy, there's so many things to say about Super Bowl 10. And we will say all of them next week because we are going to watch the game. Bob's already watched it, I'm afraid, but that's fine. Watch it a second time.

A (65:50)

I've got notes, baby.

B (65:52)

I have not seen this game since 19. Like Drew hadn't seen it since 1976. January of 76. I've seen the NFL Films recap of it probably 348 times.

A (66:09)

Yes, yes.

B (66:10)

But I've never seen the broadcast. I'm going to watch it and we're going to talk about it and review. 21:17 Pittsburgh over the Cowboys in the first of two meetings between these two teams in a matter of three years. Four years. Four years.

A (66:30)

Four Years. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for you to watch this. And by golly, with. I want to make this promise to football friends. We, we hope to basically review every Cowboys super bowl before our time on watch is over. Now, it may not be this year, so let's, let's work into this. But, but we're going to start with Super Bowl 10. And we. Thankfully there's a great version of it on YouTube that I think the NFL even put out recently. And it's. It's beautiful to watch. I don't want to spoil it for you, but since you've already seen the game, it's. It's not our hero's best performance.

B (67:15)

Now there's started off super positive on the opening kick.

A (67:20)

Yes.

B (67:21)

And the opening.

A (67:23)

A lot of good things started happening. But really in the end you're going to find out why they called them the steel curtain.

B (67:29)

I think, gosh, what a defense they had.

A (67:32)

They got after Roger on in this game. But, but let's, let's save the gold for next week. But I, I guess what I wanted to say is I wanted to invite anyone and everyone to watch it as well. And we'll all, we'll all be ready to talk about it next week.

B (67:47)

I will say this. That's the first time I've ever cried over a sporting event.

A (67:53)

Oh, buddy.

B (67:54)

Yeah, it was a hard one.

A (67:56)

Will you tell us if it triggers you again?

B (67:58)

It might. It really might. I mean, they meant. They meant everything to me at that age. And they just. They were bigger than life.

A (68:06)

And.

B (68:06)

Yeah.

A (68:08)

And I would like to confess this. I don't think I would go back and watch the most heartbreaking. So you're showing some courage here. Now, you've also had 50 years to get over it.

B (68:22)

Right. It's taken that long.

A (68:24)

But I will say that there are ghosts in my closet that I don't want to revisit. So I appreciate you doing this.

B (68:33)

Okay. I can't wait. Because it was a. And I remember also historically at the time, many called it the greatest super bowl because up until then, Super Bowls were not close. They were pretty much all double digit except for Cowboys, Colts, which was another heartbreak in Super Bowl 5. That should have been their first super bowl win, but.

A (68:58)

Well, I believe Tom Brookshire or Pat Summerall indicates as Drew Pearson scores that opening touchdown, that the team that scores the first touchdown has won every Super.

B (69:12)

That's right. The first touchdown. That's right.

A (69:15)

Yeah. So I assume we'll go 10 for 10 here. I don't know.

B (69:20)

Maybe. Yeah. See, there's. There's a small part of me that thinks Roger's playing. Let me watch this just to make sure. Well, and I. And I remember him throwing deep to Percy Howard one more time and it was. It's closer than the Steelers. Say it. Oh, yeah. I wasn't even close.

A (69:41)

It was close.

B (69:42)

It was close. All right.

A (69:43)

In fact, I've got some real questions for Chuck Noel about how they tried to kill off.

B (69:48)

Boy, no kidding. From what I remember of that. Yeah. Okay. Man, I can't wait. This is going to be great. Super Bowl 10 revisited next week on the Musers the podcast Cowboys edition. Thanks to Peter Welton who puts up with this every week. Bob and I just geeking out over football and the Cowboys and we will do it again next week. Hey, I'm Chris Van Fleet, host of.

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The number one podcast Insight with Chris Van Fleet. On the show, I sit down with.

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