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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:30]
B
Foreign it's the musers the Podcast Cowboys Edition Football Friends George Dunham Bob Stern Football Friends no matter what happens on the field with your Dallas Cowboys and this last Sunday was, or this last Monday night was a huge disappointment, 27 to 17 to the Arizona Cardinals, a loss that really wasn't that close. And it was, it was quite a 24 hours we go. They go from that loud thud at AT&T Stadium to the next day wheeling and dealing. And from that standpoint, Bob Hey, Jerry stayed in the headlines for two straight days. We'll talk about the Cardinals loss today where we're going to spend a lot of time talking about these trades and the big one in particular with the New York Jets. It's been a week, hasn't it Bob.
- [01:26]
C
Yeah, it's been an incredible week. In fact, it's been, as you said, an incredible couple days. And it really does make cynics more cynical about the way the entire circus operates. Not to completely devolve quickly into Jerry, at his core is Barnum and Bailey. But there does feel to be a little bit of let me, let me appease the masses by throwing them this, this, this, you know, hot dog dinner tonight and maybe everybody will be happy. And, and you know, I'm reminded, honestly as I was watching the game, I reminded of the Duron Bland contract being released and probably negotiated in the hours and I do mean hours after the Micah Parsons trade. And that reminded me of the Jalen Smith contract being negotiated in the the Zeke Tacabo catastrophe in 2019. And so we do have a history of the best way to make an angry crowd somewhat happy is to distract them with sleight of hand and maybe a magic trick or two. And so the fact that this disaster, this catastrophic Monday night performance which was just, it just felt like the sword into the chest of any cowboys hope and dreams in the foreseeable future. It feels like he got up the next morning and was rubbing his hands together and saying let me throw everybody a hot dog dinner and get them Quinn and Williams. And maybe, just maybe that will distract from reality so. So as much as I like the player and as much as I'm excited to talk about it, I, I can't deny there is a little cynicism in the air about what motivated this entire big transaction.
- [03:24]
B
Fair enough.
- [03:25]
C
That's probably a good place to start, isn't it?
- [03:27]
B
Okay, let's start there. Well, let's talk about the deal itself because if you're listening in Singapore, maybe you don't remember exactly what exactly transpired and was made official on Tuesday, the day after the Cowboys got beat by the Cardinals. By the way, what's up with Arizona? Who peed their Cheerios? That's eight out of nine that they've taken from the Cowboys. What's gotten into them? We'll get back to the Cardinals. I don't know what's going on with.
- [03:54]
C
That matchup, but the funny stat, I think the funny stat that has to be said since you brought it up is that the Cardinals have played 14 Monday night games in their history on the road. In history. On the road. On the road. They're owing 10 against everybody else and four and oh, against the Cowboys. And that. That's kind of funny. The footnote to that stat is somehow they played a Monday night or Monday day football game in 1936 as the Chicago Cardinals. And I'd like to hear more about that game if we ever have a very slow episode.
- [04:31]
B
Okay.
- [04:33]
C
Did somebody just miss the train in 1936 and they had to delay the game to a Monday afternoon? I don't know. But I do have questions. When I looked at the Cardinals all time Monday record started in 1936, long before ABC came up with it wasn't.
- [04:51]
B
A Labor Day thing, was it?
- [04:54]
C
It's a great question.
- [04:56]
B
I look into it and the Cardinals maybe played it Wrigley and Wrigley didn't have lights. I don't know. Okay. Okay. That's just a guess. And one more addendum someone pointed out this week on our station and Dallas the ticket. That and if you count the Jerry Maguire game where Rod Tidwell also beat the Cowboys on a Monday night game. But I think that was, I think that was in Arizona. But anyway, yeah, so the deal with. And we first thought, okay, Jerry was hinting at a trade on Monday. And then we find out it's Logan Wilson, the linebacker from Cincinnati for a seventh round pick. And we're thinking that's what he was hinting at. And apparently through our friend David Moore, longtime reporter in. In Dallas, that that was what Jerry was hinting at. That he got it confirmed. That was going to be his. Oh, yeah. Well, because I think Jerry thought they're going to win the game on Monday night and then he's going to throw out and we got a linebacker coming and he's going to play and this is going to be great. And then. Yeah, and then we find out that. Wait, there's more. How about Quinn and Williams, one of the best defensive tackles in the league. Three or four years ago, he was the best defensive tackle in the league and he still puts out great performances and it's a really nice player. He's about to turn 29. In exchange, the Cowboys.
- [06:32]
C
He's just 27 today.
- [06:34]
B
Oh, okay. 27 is going to be 28. Okay.
- [06:36]
C
He's going to be 28 in December.
- [06:38]
B
In December. Okay.
- [06:39]
C
Yeah.
- [06:40]
B
So in exchange, the Cowboys give the Jets Mozzie Smith.
- [06:45]
C
Okay.
- [06:46]
B
All right.
- [06:47]
C
That might have actually increased the price.
- [06:49]
B
The. Well, maybe that's why they also had to give up a second round pick in 2026. This year's second round and then next year. This is where it just makes most logical thinking people uneasy, is that they gave up a 2027 first round. You have an extra one because of the deal with Micah, but the jets get to choose which one is the best one. Most would put their money on the Cowboys having the worst record. That would be the pick. But what if Green Bay does tank next year? What if they have injuries and win five games next year and that's a top 10 pick and well, then that's the pick that goes to New York. Quinn and Williams, everyone loves him. He's supposed to be a great locker room guy. He is a great player. He will make the Cowboys defense better not only for the rest of this season, but for the next couple of years here in Dallas. But what about that price, Bob?
- [07:51]
C
Well, yeah, and I think both of these are really good conversations. So maybe our sub headline here for the next few minutes is why to love trading for Quinn and Williams. And then we can do why not to love trading for Quinn and Williams? Because I do think that price is a problem. But yeah, let's start with the player and let's start with the hope and change of going to get a cornerstone, a defensive cornerstone that in some ways replaces losing Micah Parsons. And I say in some ways because I just think in a post Micah Parsons world, this is a defense with zero blue chip players. Now there's a couple that might become a blue chip player, DeMarvi and overshone Donovan as a raku. Are those Are both could be blue chips someday real soon. And, and then there are a bunch of dudes and, and really either has beens or never weres or things of that nature. Siobhan Revel is a, is a interesting kid who I think was a first round caliber candidate before his knee blew out. So they got some guys but they don't have the guy. And Quinn and Williams, to me I definitely agree with you that in 2022 he was a first team all pro so thereby three years ago a better version than this year. But just looking at his 2025 tape, this guy is an animal. He is a dude who the Cowboys haven't had at that position in a long, long, long time. We could debate the last elite defensive tackle they've had, but it's been a bit Leon Lett boy, you know, Leroy Glover, you know, Leon Let. There's, you know, Jay Ratliff was good but he wasn't like this. Quinn and Williams is an absolute dude and, and he is a dude in many ways. He is probably the best run stopping defensive tackle in the league today in my opinion.
- [10:00]
B
His stats still say that Bob, that something called run stop percentage. Yeah, he still has the best number.
- [10:07]
C
I, I, he's, he's this year believable against the run.
- [10:10]
B
Yeah.
- [10:10]
C
Unbelievable against the run to a point where opponents don't really even try. Very not. Hello Dinada. Who's our big guy in Tampa Bay?
- [10:24]
B
I'm drawing a blood on it.
- [10:26]
C
It's Vita Veil. Yeah, Vita.
- [10:29]
B
There you go.
- [10:30]
C
Sorry. Not hello Dinada. Vit. Vita Vea. You might say those are similar names. They're definitely dissimilar people. But they're both unbelievable defensive tackles. One is still alive and well in, in the NFL and that's Vita Vea. Anyway, I, I think, I, I think this is a type of guy like Vita Vea where teams game plan all week and then they're like okay, well we need to run, but we need to run to the outside because if we try to run right at him, we're wasting our time. And that's kind of where Quinn and Williams is. He's double teamed and he doesn't go backwards. But also when he's double teamed he can split it and get into the backfield and make plays. He moves laterally like a cat. He's diving around like he, he's a 230 pound linebacker. So, so he is not only talented but he's always highly motivated. He's, he's driven. He is an electric football player. And then Pass rush. He's certainly not putting up the exact same numbers that he once was. I don't ever know how to provide context for that. Because it is such a group activity, especially for a defensive tackle to get sacks. You're usually never doing it on a solo mission. And so it becomes like a force multiplier. The more guys you have, the easier it is for a guy to, to amass statistics.
- [11:56]
B
Yeah.
- [11:57]
C
And then when they're red, just like this year with the jets, you know, you're kind of on an island and you, you know, quarterbacks can avoid you usually, and therefore your numbers don't look great. But I think the tape does. So I think he's a high end interior player who, when people then say, well, would you trade Micah straight up for Quinn and Williams? I probably wouldn't go that far. That's probably a little too far. But it's at least a conversation. Georgie, where would you rather have an elite edge or an elite defensive tackle? You know, I mean, it's. I think I'd rather have the edge because the edge, usually I can't help my tackle except by swinging a tight end or a running back to chip, but I really can't. I can't elect to double team and end all day, but I can do that to a tackle. So maybe an elite edge is worth more than elite dt, but it's close. And Aaron Donald will tell you, you know, there's a lot of cases where, where I think it's at least a conversation. So I probably wouldn't go Micah straight up for Quinn and Williams, but I would at least think about it. Does that make sense?
- [13:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And okay, so from a, a football standpoint, it makes a lot of sense now. The price, the price you pay. And I just thought of something because we're about to talk about how Jerry's got his hands in this. The price you pay. The thing that makes me uneasy is giving up that, that pick of giving the packers what they want, either 1 and 27. I don't like that. I don't like that for a team really needing a lot of players here in the next few years. And let's just assume these picks are going well, that you're, you're hitting on guys that now in 26, this next draft, you don't have a second round pick and you don't have a third round pick because of the Pickens deal. So. Okay, I don't like that part of it. But I also, this just jumped into my brain because I do think They, I think they overpaid for Williams and I think they didn't get enough for Micah.
- [14:21]
C
Right, but isn't that both.
- [14:23]
B
Doesn't that fit the, the MO for somebody like Jerry who when he goes in to buy his newest car or his latest helicopter, he probably overpays. He probably overpaid for a lot of the stadium. And that's what kicks in with him is, well, we need this, so whatever. Okay, fine. You know what I mean?
- [14:47]
C
Yeah. Well, yes, and, and, and fans love to play the financial game and, and that's why Jerry loves to feed it to them, which is the. Well, I could have paid Micah, but now think about all the things I can do with that money. And it's very disingenuous. But, but I do want to say if we can get past. And this is mostly me, I feel like you got past it pretty quickly. I have not got past it and I bring it up constantly. It's fine. So I, I need to have a. Micah's gone. Forget about Micah. Don't look at this move. Just about Micah Parsons and why you would rather have him. If you can get past that, which I'm. Again, I'm talking to me, then we can have a conversation about money that I think actually might bring you back a little bit to the conversation, which is this. If Quinn and Williams roughly on the books for the next two years at 23 million and George Pickens, who I imagine will be somewhere in the 25 to 28 range on an extension or the franchise tag, which would be 25, I think next year. So now 23 plus 25 is 48. Micah coming in at the 46 mark or whatever you want to say, but I can't just look at Micah. I have to say, okay, if I lose Pickens, who's my second wide receiver, and I just grabbed a number, George, I just said, okay, a mid level starter in the NFL at wide receiver these days is about a 10 million dollar player. Think of like Brandon Cooks a couple years ago for the Cowboys. Wasn't he at like 8 or 9? And so we'll round it up to 10. So now we take Micah's 46 and Brandon Cooks at 10. So 56 for those two players. And, and if I can do Quinn and, and George Pickens at that number or close. Now we're having a conversation because now we're not saying is, is Quinn and as good as Micah. Now we're saying is Quinn and Pickens as good as Micah and whoever else I could get a wide receiver it becomes a philosophical discussion that might give certain people tired head, but I think that actually is a reason to do this trade. So now to the parts where you were just referencing the uncomfortable part about what you just paid to get Quinn and Williams. I do think we have to talk about that. And for that, I hope you don't mind me using the draft points chart, because I love it.
- [17:30]
B
Yeah, I think that's where you get your potential value. Yeah.
- [17:33]
C
Okay, so the draft points chart is hopefully everybody knows for years and years and years. And this, I think, goes back to Gil Brandt, or at least that era.
- [17:45]
B
Wasn't it Mike McCoy that came up with the formula that he gave Jimmy? I.
- [17:49]
C
There's a couple different versions, and I do think they're all very similar. And the idea is to quantify each pick slot so that when we're doing trades, we can actually have a mathematical conversation of, here's how many jelly beans I'm giving you for this pick, and here's how many jelly beans for this pick. And so these. This equals out this. This third round pick is the same value as your fourth and two sixes or something like that. And so. So that's basically the math. So what we have to do is we have to come up with the numbers. And I promise I'll try to make this brief, but I think it's important. So the Micah trade was for two first, Green Bay's two firsts. Now, Green Bay has been in the playoffs the last several years. In fact, you could argue the last 30, for the most part. And so that's a playoff team. We could. So that we'll put that as a baseline. Now you're adding to a playoff team Micah Parsons, the potential defensive player of the year. So we think that probably raises them realistically into a conversation that we think that in this season and in next season, projecting Green Bay, especially in August, when we do the trade, we would say we project them to make the final eight. Do you agree with that?
- [19:03]
B
I would agree with that, yeah.
- [19:04]
C
Okay, so not the super bowl, not the super bowl champions, but at least the final eight. So the divisional round in the nfc. The final four in the nfc. Okay, so the worst pick in the final eight, or the best pick, depending on how you look at it, is the 25th pick. So 25 through 32 are the final eight slots. And they're all determined on who's in the divisional round of the playoffs. So if we say the packers will make it to the divisional round and lose in each of the next two Years. We will give them, for the sake of conversation, the 25th pick. According to the draft chart, the 25th pick is 720 points. So we'll give it to them twice. 720 in 2026. 720 in 2027 equals 1440 points. Okay? Fair, fair. Okay, so the Cowboys got 1440 jelly beans, points, dollars, music, money, whatever you want to say. They got 1440 for Micah Parsons from the Green Bay packers and Kenny Clark. Okay, now we'll leave Kenny Clark to the side. We'll now discuss the Quinn and Williams deal. A second in 2026, the Cowboys pick as of today, the Cowboys second in 2026 is, I believe, pick 44. Is that right? 46. Okay, so they would pick number 46. They would pick 14th in the second round, the 46th pick overall. And that Georgie is worth four hundred and forty jelly beans.
- [20:42]
B
That's a good pick.
- [20:43]
C
So. So 1440 over here. Four hundred and forty is the second round pick. So now we're down to a thousand points differential. Okay, now in the first round, the 2027 pick that the jets just got is the biggest best of the two. Either Green Bay's first or Dallas's first, depending on who gets the better. Or in this case, the worst record. That pick goes to the Jets. And so this could be dangerous, but let's, let's be optimistic. Let's say Dallas and Green Bay are both decent, they're not tire fires. And let's say the break even point is those remaining 1,000 jelly beans. 1,000 points is the 16th pick. So dead bang middle in the NFL it's the 16th pick. So, so if Green Bay or Dallas next year, let's say wins eight games, then the entire trade that you got for Micah goes right to the Jets. So in essence you are trading Micah for Quinn and Williams, leaving aside Kenny Clark. Yeah. Okay, so if it's the 16th pick, you're fine. If it's the 12th pick, you just got hammered. If it's the eighth pick, if Dak or Jordan Love break their collarbone in September and you win five games and it's like the fifth pick overall, that's now 1700 points plus your second 440. Now you just paid 2140 and you got back 1440 and you lost 700 points. And what is 700 points, George? A late first.
- [22:38]
B
Yeah.
- [22:38]
C
So you, you overpaid by another first round pick of a team in the final eight.
- [22:45]
B
So you have to hope it works on the Cowboys end and you have to hope Green Bay has a good year next year.
- [22:51]
C
Yes, you basically have to hope that this trade not only works, but works immediately to fix this defense for 2026 or you've really, really made a bad trade, the Micah Parsons one into a worse trade by digging the hole even deeper. This does feel like a massive gamble and we like it because it reminds us of playing fantasy or going to Vegas or doing fun things with the THR boy. I hope we strike it rich here. But again, if you're running a football organization that just did something wild in trading your best player but now you have four first rounders, you're saying we can fix this in a hurry through the college draft. But the problem with that plan and one of the reasons I was against the trade in the first place, George was taking a bunch of college kids doesn't really help my Dak Prescott window like Dax prime is not going to last forever. I've got to be good quick.
- [23:56]
B
Yeah. Next two years I think is is reasonable to think this is about 26 and 27.
- [24:03]
C
100%. That's honestly that's the takeaway people should have is that Logan Wilson has two years left on his deal and Quinn and Williams has two years on his deal. Although I wouldn't be shocked to see the Cowboys put an extension on Quinn and but regardless, that's the window that fits George Pickens, that fits CD Lamb, that fits Dak Prescott and that must be the plan of 26 and 27. To all the national talking heads who are saying, boy, the Cowboys are idiots. They're 3, 5 and 1. They can't get to the playoffs. What are they doing? It's not about tires at the deadline. Yeah, the Cowboys might be idiots. We're not going to dispute that part. But this isn't about 2025. This has nothing to do with trying to get back in this playoff race.
- [24:49]
B
Okay, let's let's pick talking by me.
- [24:53]
C
And no no no.
- [24:54]
B
It was all great stuff. I do want to say that as we're going to up next talk about the Cardinals game because this ties into the trade. Yeah, I do think in Jerry's crazy head this does means something for this year and I will explain that next on the Musers the podcast Cowboys edition. Some people think nature is like this, but actually it's like this. Mother Nature is not all sunshine and rainbows.
- [25:36]
C
Nature can be hotter than a sauna.
- [25:38]
B
And colder than an arctic skinny dip.
- [25:41]
C
That's why Columbia engineers everything we make for anything nature can throw at you.
- [25:46]
B
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- [29:28]
C
Yeah, yeah. There's. Well. And maybe more important interest.
- [29:32]
B
Interest.
- [29:32]
C
Well, okay. And that's where the cynicism comes in. Like it's, it's, it's an interesting conversation on one hand, because we say this isn't for 2025 because they can't make the playoffs. They probably have to win just about every game on the way in, and there's just too many teams to pass. And so this, of course, is not for 2025. However, and this is very important. The Cowboys are a very, very, very visible team. And when they're visible, a big part of that visibility is the gold of the cutaway to the Jerry Jones owner's box. And they love him cleaning his glasses. They love him looking upset. They love, you know, they love him, you know, celebrating a block. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I can't tell you that it has no bearing on him that we are about to get a string of 25 million or 30 million eyeballs games in quick succession. Obviously another Monday night in Las Vegas is, is on the list, but not that big a deal, but it is Monday Night Football. So high visibility. Then you got the Eagles with Tom Brady at 325 on Fox on Sunday. Then you got the Kansas City Chiefs with Tones Romes and Jim Nance on Thanksgiving Day. Then you got the Lions on Thursday night. And I mean, like for four or five straight games, not only are they playing a big game, but they're Playing like the most visible game in the National Football League for a month straight. And so what I'm saying is it isn't even about trying to make the playoffs. It's about trying not to have people laughing at you for five straight weeks on national tv. And when you are that guy in the owner's box who can't wait to have another chance to be interviewed and to be, you know, adored, as Jerry loves, well, then this is part about you saving your own face. And it's not even about making the playoffs. It's about not being mocked. So on Thanksgiving Day, when Andy Reid can't run between the tackles, then people start nodding at, wow, this Quinn and Williams trade. This is. Okay. This kind of looks like the Cowboys are going to be formidable in 2026. So it's just, again, it's. It's planting a seed of hope and watering it in that old familiar way that isn't about this year like we think it is, but it is about the fact that Jerry's got to be roasted on national TV for the next month and a half or do something about it while you still can to hopefully save a little bit of scorning and saving a face. Right?
- [32:31]
B
Yes. And not only the narrative for the rest of this season, but as we all know, the screen is always on for the NFL. So as you go into March and April, keep in mind, the Cowboys won five of their last. I'm not saying they're going to, but in Jerry's brain, he thinks, okay, we got a chance to now finish 8, 8 and 1, and we can sell this for next year's season ticket package and the interest when we go to California, and maybe Al Michaels will come back to Nobu and talk about how great we are. Yeah, it all ties into it. And you know what? He may be. He may be right. 26 and 27 could be this. This big boom, maybe. And look, I've been. I. I will admit it here on the Cowboys, but I root for Brian Schottenheimer, man, I want that guy to win. And I think he's going to. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good person. And it's. When we talk about leadership, whether it's the President of the United States or the head coach of the Cowboys, I want someone there that I can believe in. I can believe in Brian Schottenheimer. I may be wrong. He may be just leading us all off a cliff and we all fall down again and. But you're a little concerned about his offense here the last couple of weeks that, yeah, people have figured out a little bit about what they're doing and his offensive lines not as, even as mediocre maybe as we thought. And yeah, there's, there's a warning light that says offense and I'm not sure I would ignore it.
- [34:12]
C
Yeah, no, I think you're onto something. I think part of it is the game effects of what your offense looks like if you're constantly down double digits. There were a couple years I referenced this quite a bit and maybe I shouldn't because I'm not sure everybody thinks about the 2012 and 2013 Cowboys as much as I do. Probably because that's weird. Let it go, Bob. But I remember that 2012 season as clear as day, partly because as somebody who studies like film, it is so amazing to me how elementary that entire season's playbook was because they couldn't run anything and their offensive line was bad, their defense was bad. And so it was like Romo Whitten and DEZ Bryant and just making it up as they go. I think Miles Austin was still on that team and probably Creighton. I don't remember the entire cast, but I do remember that they would start games, George. As if it was the entire game was the two minute offense. Like. And I, by the way, I do think I have a siren outside my house going on. So maybe it's lunchtime. Who knows what's going on?
- [35:27]
B
Okay.
- [35:27]
C
I feel like we're.
- [35:29]
B
This is a test of something.
- [35:31]
C
Yes, yes. So if it's driving people crazy, if it's making dogs bark, I apologize in advance. I gotta soundproof my office apparently, but it is the middle of the day in North Texas. So anyway, I do think, you know, they ran a two minute offense the whole year because of other circumstances, they decided this is our best way to be effective. Well, the problem with running a two minute offense all the time is there's really only about eight plays that you can run in a two minute offense. The defense knows you're not going to run the ball. They know you're in pass protection all the time. And so once you line up two by two or three by one with your receivers, well, now there's only so many combinations that make any sense whatsoever. And so Tony Romo had to deal with all of this nonsense, but then he had to deal with the fact that defense has started to figure out here are their four concepts. You know, and I remember Patrick Peterson on NFL Films basically coming back to his sideline saying, Des only runs three routes and everybody took that as an insult to Des Brian. And maybe it's fair, but I think it's more of an insult to your offense. It's just not very multiple because you're one dimensional for a reason. Now, there's a bunch of reasons that happens, but in this case, this Cowboys case, it really feels like it comes down to the first drive of the game. And, and, and because the defense has been so inept that if you don't score and even a touchdown on the first drive of the game, now you're down 10 entering the second quarter, you're down 17 entering the third quarter, and before long you're back to that 2012 Dallas Cowboys team where of course they're not running.
- [37:16]
B
Well, it gets you doing crazy things too. Now everyone in town's been saying, hey, if you're the Cowboys, you got to go for it on 4th and 4. I don't know, opening drive at the 4 yard line when three bad things just happen. Maybe you do kick the field goal. And I dang sure think when it is 4th and 3 and a field goal officially makes it a two score game.
- [37:41]
C
Yeah, maybe that one was weird. Yeah, that one was weird.
- [37:44]
B
You kick it.
- [37:46]
C
But I'm sure people could find on our very last episode me saying that Brian shot and I'm here to know the situation in Denver and he has to be more aggressive. And so I'm not saying he's listening to football friends, although if he is, thank you, Brian. But, but I, you know, I absolutely thought that, that him going for it on that opening drive was probably a way to minimize how bad your defense can kill you. And that's why these trades. I can't be mad at them trying to get two defensive starters at the deadline, and I can't be mad about trying to go for it on fourth down because we all see that this defense was just carved by a backup quarterback where every third down seemed longer and longer, and yet he converted them like he was trying not to laugh. Why another guy is wide open. Or as the Ron Bland tries to deal with Marvin Harrison and just all this stuff going, you know, and Trey McBride against Marquis Bell. I mean, you want to talk about too small, too easy? You know, this is, this is why these guys are talking smack as they get into the end zone and they're doing the two blank and easy celebrations right into an open microphone. It's just, you know, it's just it, it. They have to do something. So, so you're right. The Cowboys Offense is getting figured out, but there's a reason for it, in my opinion. Yes, there's tape out there and so forth, but it shouldn't be this easy. It's easy because the Cowboys are good at running the ball this year, but now the game situations are taking them away from running the ball. And so you look at the box score and you're like, geez, Javante Williams. I mean, what a great night. 5.5 a carry. Why aren't you giving him the ball more? Well, we're not giving them the ball more because we're down 17 points.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
- [39:45]
C
This case, and in this case you're down 17 even with a punt block touchdown. I mean, so, so.
- [39:53]
B
And you're passing up points you've passed up.
- [39:56]
C
Yes.
- [39:56]
B
All sorts of points. And you know, so the fourth and goal play that Dak gets sacked on that opening possession, I put it out and I'm pretty sure this was the play because they had great action on the left side with Flournoy, Lamb and Ferguson. And Ferguson goes corner route. The other two Lamb crosses, Flournoy goes to the pylon. Then, then he crosses and they've got Ferguson. I'm assuming that was the play call. Even though Dax looking right when the play starts. I think that's part of it. Then he has to step up because Terrence Steele's protection is horse hockey. And he steps right into getting clobbered because Tyler Guyton's protection was terrible.
- [40:48]
C
That's right.
- [40:49]
B
And that's, that's also what Brian Schottenheimer is dealing with right now. Man, I can't depend on my tackles to make sure. And I guess Steel was dealing with something on, on Monday, but he hasn't been that great all year long. And your, your best laid plans and a great scheme can all go to, to hell if, if you don't block people.
- [41:13]
C
Yeah, and, and that's, you know, again, going back to why this thing feels broken is this, this offensive line needs to be elite. Elite because you've spent so many first round picks on an offensive line. In fact, you know, again, we can debate this. I feel like we have in the past, but I can't take guards in the first round. And the reason I can't take guards in the first round isn't because they're not valuable. It's because most guards are kind of similar. Like they don't, they don't move the needle between championship and. No, like bad teams have good guards, I guess is what I'm Saying, and so if I'm going to take a guard in the first, in the first round, he's got to be Larry Allen. You know, he's got to be, he's got to be generational Quentin Nelson. And I'm not, I'm not telling you Tyler Smith is bad. I've obviously, you know, had a history with Tyler Smith and he's one of the Cowboys better players. There's no doubt about it. And I'd love to have his draft evaluation back. And I love Tyler Booker.
- [42:23]
B
I think he's going to be awesome. I think he's going to be awesome.
- [42:25]
C
I do too. But, but man, you took those two. You took Tyler Guyton in the first, you paid Terence Steele $80 million. You took Cooper BB in the third. So to me, you've invested as much in your offensive line as anybody. In fact, Tyler Smith just signed a contract. He is the highest paid guard in football. Okay, so you've put so much money and so much draft capital on this offensive line that anything less than they were awesome this week, every single week is going to feel like, why aren't we getting more out of these guys? And so, you know, that's why your defense has holes. That's why you are. Where you are, is because you invest heavily, heavily, heavily in something. And that's right. It's just, it's not always delivering. As for the offense and Schottenheimer and Dak, I do think we have to be on the lookout because I, you know, going back to those Romo seasons where they put so much on him, I think the Romo you saw in September and October would diminish in November and December because of, I don't know, like boxing or trying to be a Navy seal. What do they call that? Hell week where they, they don't let the guys sleep. And why don't they let them sleep? Because they want to see how do they make decisions when they're super, super beat up and fatigued. And that's how you kind of measure the ability of a soldier or in this case a quarterback is, I think your decision making gets worse as the scoreboard gets worse and as you get hit more and as you feel like every play I have to hit a three run home run, even if nobody's on base and you're trying too hard and you're forcing and now you're. What would that make you do if you're a quarterback, it would make you lock in on the guys you depend on and believe in and it would make you ignore the guys you're not sure you can depend upon. And so he's locking in on CD just like Romo would with Des. And, and so I need Dax somehow to get beat up, but also not play like he's getting beat up. And, and, and the. I think there's two ways to protect your quarterback. One is let him play with the lead once in a while. Which again goes back to I've got to fix my defense.
- [44:46]
B
Yes.
- [44:46]
C
And, and, and, and to play a more balanced offense where every down, I'm not asking him to hit a three run home run. And I think that all these, all this works together. Right.
- [44:58]
B
And that's why I sent you earlier this week, the hold by Tyler Booker, because that's right. That was a huge, huge call because that happened on a play that Dak was able to scramble away from pressure.
- [45:13]
C
Yep.
- [45:13]
B
I didn't think it was a hole, but I guess by the letter of the law it could be. But I'm telling you, if you call that holding call in the NFL every time you see it, you're going to stop the game. Every other play. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. I guess technically you could call it, but it was called on a play that Dak found lamb for a first down on third and seven at the 40 yard line. The Cowboys 40 yard line.
- [45:38]
C
Yeah.
- [45:38]
B
So that play is wiped out. Now you've got third and 17 and next play they think, okay, third and 17. What are we going to do? Well, let's try to get Pickens right between the corner and the safety down the left sideline. It was there, but your quarterback got hit again because Terence Steele can't protect. And now you got a punt. What happens next? Now there's a false start on C.J. goodwin, who's a gunner. How in the. And you know why? Because the Cardinals who were right in front of him are, are baiting them. They're, they're jumping like they saw the snap and they get him to move. So now you're punting from your 10 yard line. Anger doesn't get all of it. And it goes and it's fielded and it's taken to year 47. So you talk about hidden yardage. If that play counts. I'm not saying they're going to go score, but even if they go three more plays and have to punt from around midfield or try a field goal from around midfield, let's just say they punt. Well, it's three nothing. But now you're giving Arizona the ball to 47 and they march down and they can after the five man front that the Cowboys get a sack on. Now they convert a third and 14 because Marvin Harrison is so wide open. And then that, and that drive eventually ends up in the Harrison. I'm going to make Duron Bland do a cartwheel because he's so faked out by one move. And now you are officially chasing the game at 10 nothing.
- [47:18]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a reminder that this team cannot overcome anything, you know, as it's, as it was presently constituted. Which again is, is the motivation for cashing in some futures for present help is, is you could argue a defensive tackle begins to help your offense and, and you know, a linebacker begins to help your offense and, and, and I, you know, I know that sounds like we're we to the Hopium as the kids might say, as you know, of a change. And I'm here for that, I suppose. But I think it's all connected. And I'll be honest with you, George, as I was trying to write a story about that game on Monday night, I'm like, I am hopeless right now. This whole thing is still right there with you broken. I don't even know what to say anymore. How can you guys be this hopeless to where a holding penalty ruins a game and, and you can't overcome the slightest adversity or the slightest injury. And so, you know, in a weird way, just like I have to try to set aside my, my Micah Parsons feelings, I also probably have to try to set aside my cynicism about the Jones boys and say if I woke up Tuesday morning and this was my franchise, I would have to take swift action just to give the guys who put on the uniform every day a little something to work with. And, and that's kind of where they were. So I, I don't know that a bad trade or overpaying or however you want to describe it, I don't know that it's the solution. But when you talk about what, what sort of situation would make you wake up the next morning and say I got to fire someone just so I don't lose the ent belief, you know, he doesn't like to fire people. I do think a fired firing just to make a point to everybody else, I do think there's a place for it in this world. He elected to make a significant trade, but it's really, really hard to say, no, don't do anything right now. Just ride this out for half a season. Like we just, I think you needed to give everybody a little boost and the fact that you can go to Vegas in two weeks or 10 days or whatever it is now, I suppose people could be listening to this the day of the Vegas for all I know. So let me just say when you absolutely tell your friends, when you take the field again and now you're going with Quinn and Williams at defensive tackle and Logan Wilson and DeMarvi and overshown as your linebackers and Siobhan Ravel as a corner and maybe Malik Hooker is back in as safety. I've got five new defensive pieces here and coming off a bye week, I might say, I think it's, I think we're able to wonder if the second half defense might be way closer to an NFL average defense that we've been looking for all year than the first half. Now you're playing better offenses and this is going to be tested, but you're adding, you know, the, the, the breakout of Donovan as a rocku, the better play of Jadevian Clowney there. I mean you could squint and see at least a 20th best defense the rest of the way as opposed to 32nd. And that's all we ask. I think that's might be worth fighting for.
- [51:03]
B
Yeah.
- [51:05]
C
At least if, at least if you have to cover this team for a living, I'll say that. How about that?
- [51:09]
B
Okay. That's okay. So after eight games, let's say this after seven games. In 1975, the Cowboys were 5 and 2. That team would eventually go to a Super bowl. Super Bowl 10. Let's have a flashback to 1975 coming up next on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. Hello, friends.
- [51:42]
C
Guess who? That's right, it is I, the replacer.
- [51:46]
B
Once again, I've been called on. So you can play the new Call.
- [51:49]
C
Of Duty Black Ops 7 with three expansive modes, 18 multiplayer maps, and the.
- [51:57]
B
Tastiest zombie gameplay you've ever freaking seen.
- [52:01]
C
Available November 14, pre order. Call of Duty Black Ops 7 now rated M for mature.
- [52:09]
A
You're basking on a beach in the Bahamas. Now you're journeying through the jade forests of Japan. Now you're there for your alma mater's epic win. And now you're awake. Womp womp. Which means it was all a dream. But with millions of incredible deals on Priceline, those travel dreams can be a reality. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline audio.
- [52:36]
C
Happy price. Priceline.
- [52:39]
B
So My good football friend Bob Sturm's been doing something really fun since January that only Bob would try because Bob is a, is a football nerd. And I mean that affectionately and as a compliment to you. And you've been following because this is the 50th anniversary of the 1975 team that had just missed the playoffs. In 74. They were missing a number of players now that were no longer with the team, like the great Bob Lilly who played his last season. And 74, they missed the playoffs. They had a winning record, but they missed the playoffs. Now they draft all these young bucks like Randy White, Mike Hagman, a part of the Dirty Dozen too. I do believe Bob Bruinig, players like that, that would help rejuvenate the Cowboys and take them through the late 70s and into the early 80s. And it's. There are still rivalries in the NFL. I don't think there's anything today, though, that's quite like Dallas and Washington were in the mid-70s. And this is, I guess, an anniversary. Pretty close to it.
- [53:52]
C
Yeah.
- [53:53]
B
Because you just wrote about it this week. An overtime loss at Washington.
- [53:59]
C
Right.
- [54:00]
B
That was a killer.
- [54:03]
C
What a game, George. What a game it was at. An absolute killer. This sport has changed so much and, and I think it's. It's worth pointing out that on this occasion, the Cowboys lost a game in overtime and probably won. They deserve to win. But they made mistakes. But they lost a game to a Washington team that turned the ball over six times.
- [54:34]
B
How do you win a game and turn it over six times?
- [54:37]
C
It's a great question, and I think it probably leads us back to our dear friend Tony Fritsch. And I don't, I don't automatically just want to jump on the. The poor guy. Roger had a rough day, you know, Although statistically not that bad. Billy Kilmer actually had a worse day. Billy Kilmer threw four picks and had a passer in of 65.
- [55:01]
B
Okay, we've been making fun of Tony Fresh. Billy Kilmer played quarterback and look at that guy. It's so ridiculous. There's no way somebody like Billy Kilmer could play in 2025 at quarterback.
- [55:15]
C
There's no way. I think, I hope even the worst case of good old days syndrome would agree with that. But there's so many things from this game. I don't know if you had a chance to watch the NFL game of the week.
- [55:27]
B
I.
- [55:28]
C
Okay, so you saw the Another time and boy rookie punter Mitch Hoops. You want to talk about a guy with, with, with Giant Cojones on him for like the second time this season. He just pretty much makes up a play on his own. And this time I think he was trying to avoid a block punt, but he's in his own end zone and it's just a make it up as you go on like 4th and 20. And did he throw it to Bruinig?
- [55:56]
B
I believe so. Yeah.
- [55:58]
C
Yeah. And they actually got the first out.
- [56:00]
B
But it is the biggest fire drill that was, I mean, panic running around.
- [56:06]
C
And, and just barely get out of harm's way. But the Roger moment that I did not know about, and I'm very curious how this would go over if your name was Dak Prescott is. They're in overtime and Roger throws a pick. I forget who got him, but somebody picked off Roger. It was only interception of the day, so. So he actually played a pretty clean game by 1975 standards. But on this particular moment he is being trash talked a little bit. So the interception goes to like the 40. Now this is, this is in overtime. So the Cowboys are driving. He just hit Drew Pearson on a long pass and it kind of looks like they're about to get into field goal range. But we do need to point out that field goal range back. Then you better be like at the 15 yard line because Tony Fritch can miss any field goal at any time. So. So he hits Drew Pearson on this long pass. But they still have work to be done. And on the next play he throws a pick. And in the interception return by the Redskins, Roger gets into it with Pat Fisher. And Roger. So. So they run it back to like the Dallas 40 and Roger then gets called for a personal foul. So. So again he just threw the pick. Now in the return, he punches Pat Fisherman and they literally call it a personal foul for slugging, which. Which I think is a funny way to say it. He did slug him, I guess. So now tack on another 15 yards out, the interception return and. And now the Redskins take over, I think around the Cowboys 25 yard line and eventually punch it in for a Bill Kilmer quarterback sneak touchdown to win in sudden death, 30 to 24. And now Washington takes over the one seed in the NFC because both teams are five and two and Washington's won the first head to head game.
- [58:15]
B
See, I don't know if it was this game or when the Cowboys lost to Washington on Monday Night Football where Joe Theisman did a dance and Charlie Waters face and then ran out of the back of the end zone like a little chicken. And I think that may have been the game where Rogers said, we'll see you chokers in the playoffs.
- [58:41]
C
Oh, wow. Yeah.
- [58:42]
B
And I think, I don't think it was this game. I think it was later. But man, there was so much bad blood between these two teams and the year before. 74. The Cowboys didn't make the playoffs, but that was the Clint Longley game where he came in for an injured Roger Stahl back on Thanksgiving and threw two long touchdown passes to Drew Pearson. And there was a fight in that game. I mean, every time these two teams got together, especially in Washington, there was usually a fight. And that, that, that was from. And this is about the time it started when George Allen got there and they knocked off the Cowboys in the playoffs. I believe it was the. Was the season that Washington went to the Super Bowl. So it was the perfect Dolphins season. So that's 72.
- [59:29]
C
72. Right.
- [59:30]
B
73. Playoffs. They. They beat the Cowboys in the playoffs. And that was the Sam Weiss game where you see him on NFL Films saying, die, you dogs, die. As he's yelling at the Cowboys. I mean, every year there was something between those two teams. They hated each other. Harvey Martin threw a wreath into the Washington locker room at Texas Stadium when Roger brought him on that incredible comeback his last regular season game. And the Cowboys came back and won that game. Harvey Martin went over and threw a wreath into their locker room. A funeral wreath. So, you know, it's just because Dyren.
- [60:15]
C
Talbert did something, right? Or did Talbert do anything with a coffin at some point or May have.
- [60:22]
B
Yeah, he may have.
- [60:23]
C
So Talbert was a Longhorn, right?
- [60:26]
B
Yes. But man, he Installback. Always went at each other. Always went at each other.
- [60:32]
C
I'll tell you this. Yeah. This project. And forgive me if I said this last week because the Cowboys 75 schedule had them go to Philadelphia and to Washington and back to back weeks. And that. That felt really stressful.
- [60:44]
B
That doesn't seem right. Yeah.
- [60:46]
C
Both games were such occasions in those cities that the hated Cowboys were coming to town. And I think I said this last week or whenever we talked about this. I think it was in one of these episodes. It's just I. I guess I didn't know how heated and how long this has been going on. Like, you know, you never really know when something starts, like when a feud truly began. And this is teaching me that in the mid-70s it was already happening to a point where it wasn't even surprising anymore. This is just what happens when you play Philadelphia and Washington and specifically Washington.
- [61:29]
B
Yeah.
- [61:30]
C
Where it's just where it's just such. Such a special, you know, occasion to beat the Dallas Cowboys. Like. Oh, yeah, like, they were hated back then, and they were hated badly. And so, you know, just to go through these two weeks where the Eagles are calling the Cowboys classless, and then the Cowboys are passing the newspaper around, and that's inspiring. Their win against Philadelphia, and then they go right to Washington, and Washington is, at first, early in the week, trying to butter up the Cowboys, but then by the end, it's. It's the same old feud, and RFK is rocking. And that picture I sent you of Tony Fritsch sitting all alone after the game.
- [62:11]
B
Oh, what a picture that is. Yeah.
- [62:13]
C
Isn't that an amazing picture? It's just. It's, you know, it's just a man alone with his dumb helmet and sitting there feeling sad. And that NFL Films thing that I tweeted is just him talking to himself after he misses another field goal and continues his, like, 6 for 13 run from 35 yards.
- [62:35]
B
It's just. It's.
- [62:36]
C
It's just so good on so many levels. So I. I'm loving the heck out of all this. There's. There's the. The Cowboys finally get to return home next Monday night. So. And that game exists in its entirety on YouTube. Yes. The Chiefs at Dallas. The. The full Monday night game is on YouTube. And. And so that's. Yeah, there's, like. There's like, four or five 1975 games that do exist in their entirety, and this is the first one. And then the home game against Washington, and then I think all of the playoff games. So the Hail Mary game, of course, then I think the whooping of the Rams in the Rams.
- [63:22]
B
And I can't wait till we get there. I can tell you exactly where I watched both of those games.
- [63:27]
C
I can't wait. I can't wait.
- [63:28]
B
I remember it like it was yesterday. And this is when I really started becoming a Cowboys fan. I mean, I was. But I did not make a point to watch every game that I could.
- [63:39]
C
Yeah.
- [63:39]
B
Because I lived in Chicago at the time. But then I would come down and just consume Cowboys news because my grandparents lived in Gainesville, and I watched some of those playoff games in Gainesville, and it was just. It was the best. It was just the best. And what a year that was. And I can imagine that Howard Cosell had some sharp words for them that next Monday. Now I want to watch that Kansas City game because.
- [64:10]
C
Okay, I'll send it to you.
- [64:12]
B
How could a team with any sort of playoff possibilities Lose two straight games to Washington and then Kansas City.
- [64:22]
C
Yeah.
- [64:23]
B
How could that happen, Robert?
- [64:26]
C
We're all. We're all wondering, Howard. We're all. We're all definitely wondering how the wheels may or may not come off completely. Of our heroes, the 1975 Cowboys.
- [64:38]
B
Well, and that's a distant feeling that I had about that team compared to how I felt this past Monday night, where, as I said this week, for the last 30 years, since we're about to go to Super Bowl 60, the first 30 years of the super bowl era, the Cowboys were all about it. They haven't even been close in these last 30 years. And Monday night was my moment that I've had just about every year at some point. Sometimes it happens in November, sometimes it happens in December, sometimes January. But you just kind of bury your head in your hands and you think, oh, my gosh, this organization is so ridiculous. It's never going to happen. It's never going to happen.
- [65:22]
C
Yeah.
- [65:23]
B
Yeah.
- [65:23]
C
We keep hanging in there, saying at some point it's got to swing back the other direction.
- [65:30]
B
It's got to just. Odds will bring him back at some point.
- [65:34]
C
But you're also right. At some point every season, we're like, yeah, we're not there yet, are we?
- [65:41]
B
Yeah, he just kind of draw the shades and go, okay, that's the season. This. This is over. But I will say this. I think it's going to be more interesting given the trades they made. Let's see how this goes. No, I don't think they're going to win. 7 of 8 or 6 of 8. I don't know. I think 5 of 8 would be a stretch. Let's just see what this looks like and let's just see.
- [66:07]
C
Well, honestly, I, you know, I think it's. What else are you going to do? You gonna plant a garden or something? No, I mean, it's. It's Sunday and the Cowboys are playing well. Actually, they don't play on any Sundays. Really? For the rest of the year.
- [66:21]
B
Yeah, it's going to be a while before they play on some. They're going to play every. After the football to watch.
- [66:26]
C
We have football to watch. And there are fascinating things everywhere. There's fascinating new people to learn about. We hardly even talked about the great Logan Wilson. We got to save something for next time. And even the storylines from Monday that are amazing to me is that there's a moment in the game where Tyler Booker is going at it with Walter Nolan. And if you remember, back in April, Jerry literally said that there were Two guys they were looking at with that first round pick post draft press conference, and it was Tyler Booker and Walter Nolan.
- [67:01]
B
Boy, that guy that.
- [67:04]
C
Yeah, well, yes, but also, if he was a Cowboy, we'd all be bellyaching that he hadn't played a game until November of his rookie season. And so, you know, he's. He looks great, but he's really only played like 30 snaps all season and they were all Monday night. So anyway, to me, that's what I love about these games and these teams because there's always something new that catches our eye and gives us a nice fresh glass of Hopium. Georgie.
- [67:36]
B
Yes. And next week we're going to talk about Bob getting ready to travel to Las Vegas. And we're also going to answer your email@themuserspodmail.com you have a cowboy question? Comment, you want to rip me? Not Bob, but rip me.
- [67:54]
C
Oh, they love.
- [67:54]
B
And we'll answer those questions next week on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. Do you at least feel better? Was this not good therapy for you, Bob, to talk through the trade and the Monday night mishap and all that?
- [68:09]
C
I feel great. And so much so, Georgie, just to tell you, I'm going to the next two Monday night football games because I am going this week to take my young son to Lambeau Field for Eagles.
- [68:24]
B
Packers. That's right.
- [68:26]
C
And then the next Monday, it's Cowboys, Raiders. I mean, who has it better than us?
- [68:31]
B
Nobody. Nobody? Nobody. All right, Bob, that's a. That's a football adventure right there. I can't wait to hear about all that. And we'll talk about some of that next week. Yeah, that's on my bucket list. By the way, Lambo never been there.
- [68:45]
C
Well, come along, Pacquiao.
- [68:49]
B
In the suitcase.
- [68:49]
C
Let's go.
- [68:51]
B
All right. One of these days that would make it even that much more special to go to Lambeau with you, Bob. That would be incredible. Maybe someday we'll do. That's. Yes, absolutely. All right, thanks to Peter Welton, our incredible producer who puts up with us every week, and thanks to you for listening. We'll be back again next week. We'll keep hope alive on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. Football friends.
- [69:24]
D
What's up, guys? David Pollack here, former Georgia Bulldog, former analyst with College Game Day, and host of my new show, C Ball.
- [69:31]
C
Get ball.
- [69:32]
D
I'm a defensive lineman. That's why that's the name. You see the ball, you go get it. We're going to dive deep into college football. We're going to break down film. We'll have bold takes, real conversations with the biggest names in the sport every single week. If you eat, sleep and breathe college football like I do, man, I promise you, Seaball Get Ball is for you. So do me a favor. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.