Bob Sturm (2:57)

Yeah.

George Dunham (2:58)

And it seemed like a lot of heat Came from the left side where Tyler Smith. As we all said, if we're watching this week, we're watching Tyler Smith, right? And I have mixed ideas and I like playing him out here now when it really doesn't count and you're getting an idea of where he is as a left tackle instead of a left guard. I don't know. What do you think of the experiment so far? I think it's mixed.

Bob Sturm (3:28)

Yeah, it definitely is. He, you know, the thing about Tyler Smith is he's a talented enough player and, you know, student of the game and all that, and he's got enough skills that I think he can figure just about anything out that he needs to over the course of time. But it is going to take some time and ultimately the conversation does quickly default back to where is he best? And, and that is both a personal question and a team question. Like if, if we were just managing Tyler Smith's career, what would we tell him to do? And then if we were managing the 2026 Cowboys, what would be the best way for them to get the best players at the best positions? And, you know, the, the whole thing. And I think both of those questions can be considered. Although I am going to go back to my famous MIS evaluation of him at Tulsa, which, which, you know, I, I definitely will say that that's one of those moments where you get something wrong. But I didn't think Tyler Smith was a first round player specifically because I was watching his tape at Tulsa with him playing left tackle and at left tackle. I've always thought that he's pretty ordinary. And, and you know, I, I just, I realize that that is again, doubling down on something. I admitted I was wrong. But, you know, the question was always, you know, where would you play him? And, and this, you know, the, the irony of, of looking at this through like the Zach Martin decision is worth talking about because Zach Martin played every snap at Notre Dame at left tackle, and then every snap of the Dallas Cowboys at right guard. And so when you evaluate his Notre Dame tape, you saw some things that were like, man, this guy gets beat around the corner, this guy. I don't know about speed pass rushing, I don't know about this or that. You guys sure Zach Martin is this, this guy you're saying he is. And then they would say, well, yeah, but we think he's an all pro guard. And, and I guess to my little tiny brain, George, I just simply come back to, well, how would you know if a guy can be an all pro if he's Never played the position. And that's what separates the professionals from, from the taxpayers, if you will, or from, from the rest of us. And I don't know the answer. I have no idea how to evaluate if. Oh, I don't know if, if, if your favorite tight end could actually play wide receiver in the NFL or vice versa. I mean, there, there are, there are similarities, but it's just when you said, when they said, don't worry about it, Zach Martin's going to be great at guard in the NFL, I kind of rolled my eyes and then they were definitely right. And so the Tyler Smith thing is just like that. At tackle. Even at Tulsa, he was kind of mid. And then at guard, he's been very, very good at the NFL level. And so I hesitate to move him back to a position where at Tulsa it looked like he was vulnerable. So, you know, I don't know what you think about all of that, but, but I guess my, my first instinct is I would leave him at guard and then my follow up would be. But I bet if he put his mind to learning tackle, I bet you he can be pretty good at it. If we give him time.

George Dunham (6:59)

Yeah, I think this offensive line needs to get better if they're going to take another step next year. And there's people smarter than us that can look at this and say, okay, his work there in the last three games, this is what he is, and can we work with that? Can he improve and be a good left tackle and you get your best five on the field starting early next September. And I think there's a decent chance that we see a similar lineup that we saw the other day. But it's Tyler Smith at left tackle, TJ Bass if they resign him there at left guard, BB at center, Booker at right guard, and Guyton gets moved from left to right. And they hope he's as good as he was as a right tackle in the NFL as he was at Oklahoma.

Bob Sturm (7:56)

Yeah, no, that's. I think that's the plan.

George Dunham (8:01)

Yeah. And I can look at that. We'll see. You know, if, if you have a. I don't know that what did. Before he got hurt. What did you think of Guyton this year? I. I guess, I think, put it this way, I think Tyler Smith can be every bit as good as Tyler Guyton was at left tackle. Is that a decent way to say it?

Bob Sturm (8:26)

No, I think you're right. Now, can Tyler Smith be as good at left tackle as he was at left guard? So, so then that's, that's the question, I guess that we keep coming back to is, do I think I have an all pro left guard? And if I do, which I think most of us do, think that Tyler Smith would be a, let's not say All Pro. That's very high, but let's say top five in the NFL left guard. And, and I think, I think people would concede that he already is a top five left guard. Okay, so at left tackle, is he a top 15 left tackle right now? Is he a top 20? Like, where would he rank there? And of course it's going to be subjective and you're not going to get, you know, real clear answers, but I guess that's the discussion in, in and of itself is if you took, if you took all of your offensive linemen and put a number grade on them between 1 and 10, how do you get as close to a 50 as possible when you put your offensive line out there? You need, you know, okay, do I have, do I have an 8 or a 9 at left guard if I leave him there? But is he a six if I move him to left tackle? And then is T.J. bass, you know, a six at left guard? And, and, and where's BB entering year three? And you know, so, so you have all these things. Should I keep Terrence Steele and not necessarily always default to my cap numbers on, on who my best right tackle is, or am I making a cap decision on Terrence Steele because I already drafted Tyler Guyton and I have to make that pick. Right. And where's Nate Thomas in all this, George? Where's Brock Hoffman?

George Dunham (10:06)

I think Nate Thomas and maybe a couple of other guys could be just as good at right tackle as Terence Steele.

Bob Sturm (10:12)

Yeah, well, then, then that.

George Dunham (10:15)

No, bring him back.

Bob Sturm (10:16)

Yeah, well, and then maybe Guyton should stay at left tackle and Nate Thomas is your right tackle and now you keep Tyler Smith and Tyler Booker in there. So I don't know. I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of discussion, but this, these are the conversations they have. I do know this. It bothers me and it has always bothered me that the Cowboys feel like they have to have five first round picks across the offensive line because that is not a good allocation of resources when you look at the rest of this roster, to keep saying, man, my offensive line isn't good enough. Let me throw another first round pick at it. And you know, I don't mind the Tyler Booker pick in a vacuum. What I mind is feeling like they're trying to get five first rounders across the offensive line. When so many contenders get by with, let's say two first rounders or one first rounder on their offensive line, they still have a really good offensive line because they, they draft and develop. They're, they're very shrewd out there. You know, in, in free agency, you know, you just, if you draft five first round offensive linemen, then what you end up with is paying them each 15 or 20 million a year when their contract comes up. And so, you know, I can't, I can't do that. And so at some point I've got to get 15, 17 starts out of a guy like TJ Bass at a reasonably cheap price and just say, you know what, he's out there, he battles, he knows where he's supposed to be. He doesn't get, you know, outclassed. And, and I can win with two of those guys on my offensive line. I mean, again, look around to any contender you want, pick any team you want. And let's look at their offensive line and see if they have basically tried to, you know, recreate Tyron Smith, Travis Frederick, Zach Martin, you know, and the whole thing. I just, I just think the Cowboys are obsessed with an offensive line that controls games and I understand why, but I, that's what I liked about Mike McCarthy at Green Bay is he did a really good job of taking day three guys and making like seven year starters out of them. And they weren't ever going to make all pro teams, but they were going to play winning football and that's, that's what I always liked about him.

George Dunham (12:40)

Well, maybe with Clayton Adams and Connor Riley. Yeah, you talk about development and the way they want to play. Maybe another year's time with all those guys we've mentioned, plus a Denny G, Nate Thomas, that maybe those guys are a year better and you know, your offensive line is better than it was. I will say this. Cowboys 30, Washington 23 only says to me that's the only type of team the Cowboys here late in the season wins a win. I know, yeah, but man, they've got a 39 year old quarterback and Josh Johnson, they've. That's a four win team.

Bob Sturm (13:23)

Yeah.

George Dunham (13:23)

That you needed a gutty first down late to hang on to the ball and, and win the game. And that's a team. Washington, even with all that, they only ran 41 plays because the Cowboys possessed it 38 minutes and went 6 for 6 on fourth down conversions which elongated a lot of possessions. In other words, Washington didn't Have a lot of time and plays to put up numbers and they still put up 23. It's another chapter of the defense being ridiculous and you allow another 100 yard rusher and okay, so there was one assignment to watch Tyler Smith. Now here's another one I mentioned. Cowboys go 6 for 6 and 4th downs. It's against a pretty wheels off defense in Washington. It made me have this thought. Should Shoddy have been more aggressive all.

Bob Sturm (14:25)

Year long on fourth down 1,000%. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They, I think there was only one other time this season where they went forward on fourth down four times. And so, um, I can't remember which game that was, but it was in the last month or so and otherwise it's, it's always been like, ah, we'll go for it once a half or something like that. And I just, I thought early on and, and I'm not going to say training camp, but I am saying when Russell Wilson threw for like 500 yards against the Cowboys with the stinko Giants in week two, it kind of felt like, okay, well we, now we know this type of season is going to be, it's going to be the season where you have maybe the offense in football and maybe the worst defense in football. And so you need to lean into your strengths and try to hide your weaknesses. Now I think you properly said this is the type of team the Cowboys can, can do that against. And, and teams that have, let's say Justin Herbert at quarterback will not allow you to do this. So, so it, it, you know, there's a reason, there's a reason this game worked so well and it's probably because Washington could do very little really on either side of the ball to stop you. And so, you know, that's really football at its core is it's just a battle of wills and who can enforce their will on the other. And so the Cowboys were in a power position in this game, which by the way we expected they would be against the Vikings a couple weeks ago and they actually did not got spanked. Yeah, they got spanked pretty handily. But, but what I guess what I'm saying here is in this game, you know, the Cowboys can run the football. They can, you know, seemingly set up third and fourth and short. And so yeah, you got to lean into those. You can't kick field goals. We've talked about this time and time again. We've talked about Shoddy, getting a little conservative and being a little too Jason Garrett at times. And I really think you need to lean into it the other way. Now that's difficult, especially when an entire organization is putting a lot of pressure on you to take advantage of this opportunity. You are the coach of the Dallas Cowboys now. We need to see results so that we know we didn't make a mistake. Because loyalty from the Jones family only lasts as long as you can. You know, you could keep them feeling like they made a good decision the moment they going the other direction. It's like you're Matt Eber floose and you're not invited to the holiday party or something and things get, you know, get a little upsetting. But, but yeah, they should have been going forward all along. I don't know why they didn't. But it is perfect Cowboys football. To all of those that roll their eyes at this organization and kind of wonder why you and I would even be doing a podcast about the. The Cowboys team, the reason they wonder that is because a typical Cowboys season is you get eliminated and then your offense is dynamite the next week when it doesn't matter. You know, that's, that's kind of. If you were to categorize, yes, the Cowboy cynic about like the Dak Prescott Cowboys, it would be, of course he's Gonna put up 500 yards and a bunch of touchdowns when it doesn't matter anymore against a team that can't defend itself. That's, that's how they put up these, these numbers where you guys tell us he should be in the MVP conversation. They, they're, they're, they're bullies against teams that can bully, but then they get bullied way too easy. And, and I guess my defense for that, George, is yeah, I wish you were wrong. But, but there are, there are patterns here that are difficult for us to avoid.

George Dunham (18:27)

There's something that happened in the game that just made me lose my mind and I didn't have it charted that day. But I just kept thinking, where's Logan Wilson? Because that's another thing you and I said on the defensive side of the ball. Let's see a lot of Shamar James, let's see a lot of Maris Leopold. And if he's healthy, which he was, let's see Logan Wilson and there's Kenneth Murray play after play, including the 72 yard touchdown run which went right at him from Jacori Crosky, Merritt. He didn't. Logan Wilson did not play one snap on defense. What in the hell are we doing, Bob? What is going on?

Bob Sturm (19:14)

That's a wonderful question. And it reminded me of like when you're a little league parent and you realize the coach forgot to play your son and you feel awful as you drive home and he's like, dad, I didn't even play and it wasn't even that close a game. And why didn't he put me in? And does coach hate me? And you're, you know, he's eight and so you're like trying to explain to him that coach has a lot on his mind and he probably forgot and he doesn't mean anything by it. And of course you're great. You know, he just forgot about you over there on the sideline. And it's heartbreaking when it's like you're second grader, but when a professional athlete, the, I mean, the explanation is we forgot to put him in. Like, like what? Okay, so, so yes, I, I think you properly summarized it, but I just think, for emphasis, we do need to go back to the fact that they thought this position was so inept that they had to trade for this guy. On trade deadline day with the Cincinnati Bengals, Logan Wilson. We tried not to be too sarcastic that Logan Wilson was leaving the 32nd best defense where he seemed to be being benched or soft benched at least. And the Cowboys thought that he could be an upgrade on Kenneth Murray. And so I just thought it was.

George Dunham (20:39)

Because they were 32nd, the Cowboys were 31st. He knew the system. That's why I thought they made the trade.

Bob Sturm (20:47)

He knows what we're trying to do here, so he'll fit right in. So, so they go get him. And, and, and honestly, for the first six weeks, it was. I. It's interesting they're not playing Logan Wilson more because I kind of expected that they would, they would give him every opportunity to, to improve what's going on at linebacker. And instead, in a game after you're eliminated, so, so there's levels to this, George, that they got eliminated from the playoffs. So now there's literally, literally zero reason to play Kenneth Murray anymore. His contract's up, he's been awful. You traded to replace him. And so on Christmas Day, Kenneth Murray played every single snap of that game. Every single snap. Logan Wilson played zero. And their explanation is we forgot or we lost track or something of that nature. And I don't want to say that that is the most damning thing you've ever seen from a Cowboys coaching staff, because we definitely lived through a time where Wade Phillips would be asked questions about his running back situation as head coach, and he did not seem to be real familiar with the running backs. On his roster because he only coached the defense. So. So we have a long history. We have a long history of the Keystone Cops coaching staff and just at all the, the disarray. But luckily they chased it with. With another news story of the day to kind of COVID the morning papers. And Logan Wilson by. By the pre lunch Trayvon dig story. It's just. I boy it. All of it. George is just. Waiter, please take 2025 away. We're done here with this meal.

George Dunham (22:52)

No kidding. And whatever you were serving on the defensive side of the plate was just the worst crap I've ever tasted.

Bob Sturm (22:59)

And Leop didn't even play. He had two snaps.

George Dunham (23:02)

That's.

Bob Sturm (23:03)

It's like, like I was asked the other day, so do they hate Marisolio foul? And I said, I don't know what else to think. Like, they, they have a blinking light that says we need linebackers badly. And yet this third round pick, remember this is a third round pick, and there were several running backs, very good running backs still on the board in that 2024 draft up in Detroit. And they took a linebacker from Notre Dame, which, you know, anytime they do, you kind of give them the benefit of the doubt and say, okay, well, if they got a starting linebacker here in the third round, this is awesome. Well, now we're at the end of his second season and he never plays. Despite their desperate need at linebacker, they trade for a guy. They don't play him now. And this is, this is a game. And this is important for the time, you know, the, the time machine. So when we revisit this someday, we can also point out demarvian Overshone was not available in this game due to injury. They had nothing. And yet they stayed with the Kenneth Murray show almost seemingly like they're trolling us. Like they, they just, they. They now realize it means something to us who plays the linebacker snaps. And so now they, they're. They're going to continue to serve us this until the very end. Well, until the last listener leaves.

George Dunham (24:30)

Man, it's been such a miserable year on defense. And up next, we're going to talk about Trayvon Diggs. The fact that he was released this week by the Cowboys, how he has just fallen off the map after leading the NFL and interceptions just four years ago. But this number just kills me. He only played in eight games this year. He didn't have an interception. That's not surprising. He didn't have one pbu. He didn't. And remember, we got about four or five weeks into the season and there Wasn't a corner on this team that had one pbu. That's, that's that number. And then that as we go to the final game of the season, Week 18, the Cowboys have only six interceptions as a team, the worst number they have ever put up on the defensive side of the ball. That. Just another, just another indication of how just embarrassing this defense has been this year.

Bob Sturm (25:39)

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's crazy. 11 takeaways is, is brutal, amazingly. And this is, this is worth pondering because we all, we all trumpet the years of Dan Quinn running this defense. And, and there's only two teams with fewer takeaways in the NFL this year, and Dan Quinn's defense is actually one of them.

George Dunham (26:06)

Yeah, they've had a tough.

Bob Sturm (26:08)

They only nine, and so that's wild. I, I, you know, the answer, obviously, is everywhere when you say, what could this defense do to get better? And why are they so bad? And just all this. I mean, there's a number of explanations, but, you know, the corners can't cover, partly because there's no pass rush, and there's also no pass rush, partly because the corners can't cover. And so you have this great big circle where. Why would you ever hold the ball if you're a quarterback, if the guys are always open? But, you know, so, so how's, but, but how's a, how's a pass rusher supposed to get home if, if the quarterback gets the ball out so fast? But, but, you know, it just, it's just rounded round, it's circular logic, it's upsetting, and it's where we are right now. And I look back at 2024, and you, of course, participate in the rank, the roster exercise, and the, the Top entering the 2024 season for the Cowboys were Micah Parsons, DeMarcus Lawrence, and Trayvon Diggs. And they had a ton of money put in those three guys, and a ton of their present and future was in those three guys. And now here we sit 15 months later, and none of them are on the roster. And it's just, you know, it's bad. It's bad. There's, you know, when you say, why is the defense bad? I think you would have to start with, there's just no talent on this defense. I mean, they got a few talented pieces, but they're just miles away, George.

George Dunham (27:46)

They are. Let's talk about the fall off of Trayvon Diggs and, yeah, what is on that side of the ball, the defensive side of the ball. On the Musers, the podcast Cowboys Edition. Get ready for the Rush with Max Crosby.

Bob Sturm (28:04)

It's time.

George Dunham (28:05)

Don't miss the behind the scenes moments.

Bob Sturm (28:07)

Everyone'S talking about, regardless of what they say.

George Dunham (28:10)

I'll take the Fine.

Bob Sturm (28:11)

I don't care.

George Dunham (28:11)

All Pro defensive end Max Crosby takes you beyond the field with exclusive insights. I could say this because I played them.

Bob Sturm (28:19)

This is the Rush.

George Dunham (28:20)

You guys already know what time it is.

Bob Sturm (28:22)

It was fire. And we'll be right back on the pod and we'll be talking about it next week.

George Dunham (28:25)

The Rush with Max Crosby.

Bob Sturm (28:27)

Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

George Dunham (28:32)

Okay. We have done this exercise before and that is. Let's go back just a few drafts, Bob, and if you start in 2020, because we'll, we'll start here with Trayvon Diggs being released by the Cowboys this week. Drafted in the second round in 2020 out of Alabama, by the way. Coming out, I loved him and I know he's had a lot of problems tackling the last few years. I never saw that at Alabama. And I saw a ball hawk and I saw a guy who was always around the ball. And so if you go back to the 2020 draft and let's just take the top three rounds. 2020, third round. Neville Gallimore. Hadn't seen him in a few years. A defensive tackle. Trayvon Diggs in the second round, now gone. CD Lamb. Of course, we know what he's doing on the offensive side of the ball. 2021. Oso Digizua, third round, great pick. Kelvin Joseph in the second round. A guy who was more worried about his rap career than playing corner in the NFL. Gone from this team. Michael Parsons.

Bob Sturm (29:44)

Honestly, Honestly. Kelvin Joseph, out of the league. Out of the league altogether. That's.

George Dunham (29:49)

Yeah. And just terrible.

Bob Sturm (29:51)

Hard to do. Yep.

George Dunham (29:53)

Parsons, a great pick. We wondered what's he going to do, the linebacker, but turns out he's a defensive end, but you trade him away. 2022, third round. Jalen Tolbert, still hanging on with the team. Certainly not a huge factor and not a factor on the defensive side of the ball. Sam Williams.

Bob Sturm (30:12)

Can I go back to 21 and say let's not forget Chauncey Golston and Nayshaan Wright, especially also in the third round.

George Dunham (30:20)

Apparently you had a player. Nayshawn. Right. Bob, we talked turnovers. A guy who led the NFL enforcing turnovers this year.

Bob Sturm (30:28)

Yeah. A guy who's, who's really been great for the Bears. And I can't explain it because he showed no signs of it here, but now here he is in his fifth NFL season and Nayshaun Wright is going to get to play several more years because of kind of finding himself in Chicago this year. Chauncey Golston is, you know, so in 2021 they had five picks in the top 99 and, and ended up with Micah and Osa and kind of three whiffs on, you know, and if you, if you go five for five, those are all defensive players, by the way. And if you find five starters there, that's your core moving forward. Anyway, on to 2022. I'm sorry.

George Dunham (31:12)

Oh, that's okay. Because not much production there either.

Bob Sturm (31:17)

No.

George Dunham (31:17)

We talked about Tolbert in the third round, defense in the second round and Sam Williams again, not a bad player, but we had much higher hopes by now for Sam Williams had the injury last year, but again, that guy should be starting for you and should be a productive defensive end if you take him in the second round and he's not. The aforementioned Tyler Smith was taken in the first round in 2022, then your top three rounds of 23. Demarvi and overshone. Great ability, but a guy who's really hit the injury bug. Luke Skoon Maker, a backup tight end in the second round and of course Mozzie Smith in the first round. The defensive tackle who's done nothing in this league and was sent away to New York. And the Marshawn Neyland tragedy of this year, he was the second round pick in 2024. 25 is up for debate. You know, we'll, we'll see what Ezra Rocku and Revel in James turn into Toya as defensive players. But there is five years of drafting Bob and one starter out of the whole thing on defense.

Bob Sturm (32:34)

Gosh, that's. Yeah, and that's, that's just, that's just not good enough. And I think we know that. And, and you know, it's just, it's, it's why you are where you are and it's why, you know, the, the conversation is always about the high end guys where we, we talk about the top five guys on your roster without fail. And, and think about all the conversations we've had about Dak and Micah and CD and you know, guys like even now Trayvon Diggs. We've, we've talked so much about it. Whereas the reality is the, the core, the skeleton of this entire roster is just lagging behind by a pretty good margin. And it's just, it's, it's a, they're in a rough spot and I don't know how they dig out without hitting some Real home runs in the draft. And the problem is they don't have their picks. You know, they thought they got a bunch of picks with Micah, but then they cashed them in right away with Quinn and Williams. Now I hear people saying, should we go cash in more picks on Max Crosby? And you know, I, I, I'm, I, I, I. Look, I love Max Crosby, I love Cornelian Williams, you know, and, and let's trade for everybody. But there's a cost. And the cost is the skeleton. The bones of your team are gone because you either have failed draft picks or no draft picks at all. And when you look at the good teams in this league, I know people roll their eyes when people say this, but you are built, Champions are built through the draft. And this is why we spend a lot of time on the draft. This is why we try to get to know these players. But ultimately it comes down to the scouts, the, the front office targeting and acquiring guys that they can then grow into really, really good players. So as we look at this and as we tell you the stories of like Luke Schoonmaker and Maris Liafile, guys they took very, very highly as clearly somebody in there is pounding the table like, get me Schoonmaker and we'll make it work. Well, here we are at the end of his third year and we're still not sure that he's any better than like Brevin Span Ford who you got as an undrafted free agent.

George Dunham (34:58)

And I think Sunday showed further proof he's better. Yeah, well, as a receiver and I think he's a, I always thought Schoonmaker is really good blocker, but I think Span Ford has caught him there too.

Bob Sturm (35:12)

Well, I do too. And so how many times are we going to do this, you know, like the Leopold thing. The heck. You mentioned Sam Williams, you know who went after Sam Williams as like the next pass rusher off the board, Denver's Nick Bonito. Don't you think that would be a little something if you had Nick Benito as your edge rusher? Now losing Micah doesn't hurt so much. And you know who went a couple picks later was Nakobe Dean as a, as just a jaw shattering linebacker that could be running around. He went in the third round of Philadelphia and people are like, yeah, is Philadelphia, is Howie really that good? Yeah, yeah, they, they are really good. They don't hit every pick, nobody does. But they're really, really good at, at just what the coincidence. Another good player fell right to them. And so, you know, it's not A coincidence. Your high picks unfortunately are having trouble, you know, on, on Christmas Day, if we may go back. And I'm not trying to depress everybody, but the other guy I'm really watching is Siobhan Revel or Siobhan Ravelle. The, the corner from East Carolina who I want to admit I loved out of East Carolina. I thought that was a great pick. I thought that was a first round value. But of course he was coming off an acl. So part of me says maybe we shouldn't even judge this guy because this is kind of his red shirt year and maybe we should not look critically on how he's playing. The other part of me says George, well, at some point, if he's on the field, we have to actually be honest about what we're seeing. And what I'm seeing in this last couple weeks is every team is targeting Ravel for a couple reasons. One, the guy who he's covering is usually open. And two, once he catches the ball, Ravel has no idea what to do, like, with regards to tackling him. And so there are 17 corners in the NFL that playing this year who were in the 2025 draft and who have played enough snaps to qualify. And according to Pro football focus, the 17th highest grade of those 17 corners who are rookies this year is our guys. Siobhan Revelle.

George Dunham (37:35)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (37:36)

Yeah. I mean, I'm not selling my stock in him, but I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit rattled at how easily Josh Johnson and the Commanders were going after him on, on, on Christmas Day. And, and, and by the way, I feel like this needs to be mentioned if we're going to do football Friends after a game like that. The Commanders had very little production. They never had the ball, as you said. Yeah, but we do need to throw out the statistic that they averaged eight yards a play. Eight yards. And to put that in perspective, there have only been six games in Cowboys history where the opponent has averaged eight yards in a game, and it hasn't happened since 2013. So, yeah, the Cowboys suffocated the Commanders on Christmas Day and won, you know, and it was a little harder than it should have been, but the game never really looked in, in jeopardy to me. But let's not kid ourselves. They only had 40 snaps or whatever it was, and they had explosive play after explosive play after explosive play. So I don't know that we should say that we saw really anything terribly encouraging from the defense other than, you know, Jadevion Clowney was great. So I Don't. And I don't mind saying that, that we probably owe him a pat on the back for, for the way he's played this season, because I do think he's been a bright spot and frankly, one that I didn't expect a ton from. But, but Clowny played his, his, his tail off on Christmas Day. And, and, you know, I would say at this point, looking at him, that's probably a good veteran for your kids to learn from on what it means to be a pro because he plays his tail off.

George Dunham (39:36)

Yeah. 11 free agents on the defensive side. He's one of them. I wanted to run down here in a second, but the decline of Trayvon Diggs from signing the guy to a five year, $97 million extension two years ago to his outright release. Had the knee injury, did not rehab according to the protocol with the team. The Dallas Morning News reports that he was a repeated offender and rules violations that applied to meetings that applied to rehab. He had a concussion at something that happened at his home, which has remained a mystery for a guy who led the league in interceptions just four years ago and looked like, man, this is. This guy's just gonna occupy one side of the field for 10 years and probably be a Hall of Fame cornerback to his release this year. He has a cute little son, Aiden, everyone fell in love with A few years ago. He had. He seemed to have the world in his hands and. I don't know. You have any theories on what went wrong with Trayvon Diggs?

Bob Sturm (40:51)

Well, I, I am probably guilty of liking him too much. He's a very likable guy. We've visited with him several times, and every time he seems earnest and sincere and wanting to be the best he can be. So I get a little bit hesitant when the Cowboys want to tell me what a bad guy he is once they give him a contract and then they regret it. I don't know. I. I think that he is a player that once he got hurt, he was never the same again. Again. And. And I think there are hundreds of NFL players that you could say that, that, you know, this guy. You should have seen this guy before he blew out his knee. He was something special, but once he did, it took away that 10% that made him elite. And so now he's the catch up.

George Dunham (41:48)

Speed and all sorts of stuff.

Bob Sturm (41:50)

Yeah, yeah. And he was, you know, he was a gambler, he was a guesser, and so he'd be. He'd be covering a guy and then he would jump a route and. And I imagine that takes some turbo boost in your giddy up. And if you lose that because of a major injury, maybe you're never the same again. And maybe the margins for the most elite level of football on the planet is such that if you do lose 10%, then you're just a guy. And honestly, to be fair, that kind of is what it looks like. But now, if you're just a guy, but you're also making 20 million a season, your team is going to be bitter, your reputation is going to take some hits. I don't know. You know, I've always wondered about the unintended ramifications, George, of us knowing what each player makes, because on one hand, it helps players make more money. You know, back in the day, if you did the Cowboys Rewind in 1975, you can read a whole year of newspaper stories and never really read one detail about what one guy makes. I never knew what Roger Staubach made or never knew what.

George Dunham (43:02)

It wasn't out there.

Bob Sturm (43:03)

Any of those. Yeah, it wasn't out there. It wasn't public information. Well, it got public because players saw that teams were taking advantage of them, and if they could put their knowledge together, they could all be more sensible in what they asked the teams for. And the teams didn't love that information going public. But what I think what's happened over the years is now we consume all of our games with this. This knowledge of. Of. This guy makes 20 million, this guy makes 30 million. This guy makes 60 million a season. That's insane. Boy, he ought to be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I mean, what are we. What are we doing? And so there's that bias when we judge them. And I'm not. I don't know if it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it. It's. It's weird, I suppose, that we can't ever look at a guy the same way once he gets paid. And I. I feel like the Jones boys do that as well, is that once they pay a guy, they view him as part of the problem, not part of the solution. Because if we didn't have to pay this guy so much, maybe we could put a winner out there. And I don't know. I don't know how much that's coping. And I don't know if any of this makes sense, but it just feels. It feels like he. And by the way, he's not alone. The. The other team I followed, Jair Alexander, I think might have been the same draft, and I think they Signed a very similar deal. And honestly, the moment they signed the deal, they were never the same player again because they both quickly got hurt. And it's a weird deal, man. And it makes you think you shouldn't pay anybody because it's all depreciating assets where guys are going to get hurt and they're never going to. You know, you're like. If we said Trayvon Diggs, the best three years of his career were the first three years out of college, I wonder how many players that's actually true about. Is that.

George Dunham (44:58)

That's a good question. Yeah.

Bob Sturm (45:00)

The best years of your career already happened before especially.

George Dunham (45:04)

Is that another thing about playing in the sec? You've been in wars for three years and then. Yes, yeah, there's something to that. And here's one more quick theory on what happened to Diggs. I think you're spot on with that. The knee injury certainly took something away from his explosive nature. He was such an explosive player. Could close, make a tackle, knock a ball loose, pick it off, go the other way. I want to say this started around about the time he got his extension, somewhere around 22 or 23. It was, I think, the same season it started. Upon further review, and one thing I would notice is that offenses started lining up with a power set to dig side, and they would run the ball right at him and just knock the hell out of him. And I think. And I think he took so much punishment as a, hey, this guy doesn't like to play the run. Let's not only block him, let's end him just about every time we run the ball. I mean, once you have that many bombs go off around you, I really think. I don't have any proof outside of anecdotal proof, but I. I really think that affected him as a player.

Bob Sturm (46:25)

I think. I think you're right, but I also think that's. That's the NFL, is they want to make sure that all 11 of your defenders are dogs. And if they sense that there are any kitty cats out there on the edges, they attack them without mercy. And, you know, every single guy in this league has to prove that they're a dog. And I respect the guys who can do it, and frankly, I respect the guys who can't do it but survive in this league because they're so good at everything else. I mean, Deion Sanders is a great example of, you know, I.

George Dunham (47:04)

Business decision.

Bob Sturm (47:05)

Yeah, yeah. Look, I'm. I'm not here to tackle. I'm here to cover, and I'm here to get the ball. And I bet I can still do enough that teams are going to want me, teams are going to pay me, and other teams are going to not be able to exploit my weaknesses enough. And, you know, that's, that's life in the NFL. I think, like I said, I think Ravel is now dealing with that same reputation immediately as, you know, Cliff Kingsbury and the commanders are running tunnel screens with Debo right at Ravel and saying, you know, are you, are you ready to get dirty today? Because we have a guy who wants to run right through your chest if you're not up for it. And, man, imagine, imagine that job. You know, just sometimes when we watch this thing, we, we under. Emphasize the, the torture or the punishment that these guys take to get ready to play each week. And, and I think coaches basically assaulting guys by saying, we're running right at you and we're going to make, we're going to make your life pain to see if, to see if they'll just take you off the field or whether, you know, you're going to answer the challenge. I, I think that's one of the fun parts about our game. It's kind of sick if you think about it, but then again, so is football. But it's, it's, it's, it's great stuff to really, you know, challenge guys and to see, you know, I think, I think Kenneth Murray's been attacked. I think Micah Parsons used to be attacked. I, I think, I think Donovan Ezraku is being attacked every player in this league. Oh, and we can do it with, with running back Malik Davis. They put him out there, and immediately the commanders want to blitz the a gap with Bobby Wagner to see if Malik Davis can handle it. And by the way, Malik Davis could not handle it. And so, you know, this, this is what game planning is, is finding the weakness and attacking it and, and showing no mercy. And that becomes. It comes in many different forms, I mean to say, but. But one of them is, you know, making Trayvon Diggs tackle.

George Dunham (49:24)

Yes, well, he starts another chapter somewhere else. Pretty wild, though, that just a couple years later, he is released by the Cowboys after getting a $97 million deal. By the way, the Cowboys will save 12 million on that. I do believe in 12 and a half on next year's cap.

Bob Sturm (49:43)

Yeah, yeah, they will. And all they're responsible for now is a signing bonus because none of his money or the next three seasons was guaranteed except the prorated signing bonus. But I do, I do push back on the behavior part of it. Because I do know in August, just because we know how to read contracts on the Internet, we kind of knew this was it for Trayvon Diggs. So. So I get that they're frustrated and I get that they kind of set the table for this when him and Micah were being buddies on the practice field at training camp and they were mad that Diggs didn't rehab here. But I don't know, man, I just think this was destined from the get go. So I don't understand what happened at his house. Jane Slater said he was installing a TV and it fell on his head or something like that. I think we all have a right to be somewhat suspicious about that. First of all, for those of us who do not make Trayvon Diggs money, I would just suggest to Trayvon that you should probably hire a handyman to install the TV and stimulate the economy and also keep your head safe if that's what happened. But you know, I just, I, I just hate this because we knew in August that Diggs was gone. Unless Diggs had like a 10 interception season where he's first team all pro, they weren't going to bring him back. And by the way, the same's true for Terrence Steele. And if you give me a minute, I bet you we could look at the contracts and I could tell you who we'll do this for next year. And then in a couple years we'll do it with Duron Bland and Tyler Smith. Because this organization seemingly pays a guy and then starts the countdown on how quickly we can get rid of him. And I just don't know that that's great business. But it is the way they do business going back years and years and years. Zeke, Jalen Smith, all the guys who they give extensions to, DeMarcus Lawrence. It's like the beginning of the end when they're signing their big extension.

George Dunham (51:57)

All right, one more game left. One more segment left for us to talk about what we'll see in the Giants game and a couple of others, those other names on the defensive side of the ball. Will they be back next year? Let's discuss Cowboys and Giants final game of the year. Dallas at 7, 8 and 1, the Giants at 4:12. They messed around. They and 1 last week, Bob. Not just any game. They, they beat the Raiders. They were in. They could have clinched the first overall pick with the loss. But now they have to lose to the Cowboys and have the Raiders lose on the final week of the season to give them the number one pick. It's been a Long year in New York. It's been a long eight or nine years in New York. They're, they're really bad. That's who the Cowboys face this week. My God, if we see 50 plays of Kenneth Murray again this week, I'm turning it off, Bob. And I'm not doing, I'm not doing the show next week out of protest.

Bob Sturm (53:04)

Well.

George Dunham (53:06)

Surely we'll see guys that we needed. I need an answer on Logan Wilson and you mentioned Jadavian Clowney. What about Donovan Wilson, Dante Fowler? Those are guys that are free agents after this year. Outside of Clowney. Any of those guys back?

Bob Sturm (53:28)

I mean, we, you're talking defense, right?

George Dunham (53:32)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (53:33)

Okay, so I won't say Javante Williams because that would frustrate you because he plays on offense. I would say, I would say I'm good with pretty much saying goodbye to the entire lot of them. To, to be honest, I, I, I know I need players, so I can't be too crazy. So if Sam Williams doesn't get a great offer, then I'm, I'm happy to have him back, but I can't trust him for big money. And you know, what's big money for. For an edge who's not a starter. Three for 21. You want to give seven a year to Sam Williams? I don't think I do.

George Dunham (54:10)

No. I say bye. Bye.

Bob Sturm (54:12)

So now keep in mind that's probably Dorrance Armstrong a couple of years ago. And then Dorrance went to Washington and played really well. So you got.

George Dunham (54:21)

I think Armstrong was more productive than Sam Williams.

Bob Sturm (54:25)

Okay.

George Dunham (54:25)

Okay.

Bob Sturm (54:27)

I won't, I won't get in a big fight over that. Dante Fowler was a big disappointment for me this year. I expected him to pop a little more often and I'm not sure he did at all. Donovan Wilson to me and the other side of 30. I just, I just at some point I'd like to get some safeties who I think are able to provide above average safety play. And I just, I just think both the Cowboy safeties for years have been just so ordinary and, and you know, so you go down the list. I mean, it's, it's. If you say the defense is really short on talent, then it shouldn't surprise anybody to hear us say we're not dying to lock down any of these guys. No, it's just it. I, I'd like to think the defense is moving to a 3 4, and if it does, I feel good about my starting front three because I would make that Quinn and OSA and Kenny Clark, very expensive, but why not? And then the two edges and a three, four to me would be as a raku and maybe Clowney or maybe somebody I draft, you know, and I think as a rock who is undersized in a 4, 3 as an edge, but as in a 3, 4, I kind of like it.

George Dunham (55:53)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (55:54)

So I think, I think he can do that. So. So from there I'm going to have to have a real conversation on where I get a 3, 4 defensive coordinator and do I even have that in my plans? And so trying to see the vision is very important. And they do a wonderful job, George, of making us wonder if there's any vision at all. And so when I look at, you know, what scheme they're playing, before I answer any of these questions, I'm trying to be log. But I'm also wondering how could anybody know what their plan is until we, till we see it come into focus.

George Dunham (56:35)

Do you have any good names for us? Because there is a new defensive coordinator here next year, the fourth one four years. Right. No question about that. I mean, if you don't have a name for us this week, that's the assignment for next week. We have to present three candidates to be the Cowboys next defensive coordinator.

Bob Sturm (56:57)

Okay, I love that.

George Dunham (56:58)

I love that because I don't have any. I don't have anything for you. I've been.

Bob Sturm (57:01)

No, I mean, I'm hearing. I'm hearing plenty of Brian Flores talk. But why would he do that? Why would he take a lateral move to a place that doesn't have the talent and you know, you can money whip them, I suppose. But if I'm Brian Flores, I want to be a head coach and, and I just don't think that job is available in Dallas. And I also don't know if Brian Schottenheimer and Brian Flores know each other at all. And if they do, then great. If they don't. I don't want a coaching staff that is made up of guys who kind of want Schottenheimer's job. I don't think that's real productive to have divided coaching staff. Not that I'm trying to throw that out, but I am saying at times if you bring in a hot shot defensive coordinator, he's thinking about taking your job as a head coach at sub point or becoming his own guy. So I don't know. There's. There's a lot there. But, but let's just go back to why would Brian Flores be interested in this job?

George Dunham (58:09)

Well, and the only reason I could give you is if the Cowboys did offer him, hey, I'll pay a $9 million to be our defensive coordinator. The problem is Jerry won't do that. He can. He should.

Bob Sturm (58:24)

Right?

George Dunham (58:25)

You should have more coaches and the highest paid coaches of any team in the NFL.

Bob Sturm (58:32)

There's no doubt.

George Dunham (58:33)

Because there is no. And you should have the biggest research department, the biggest analytics department. And I think the Cowboys have invested more and more in that the last couple years. But it should be trend setting. It should be the model of the NFL.

Bob Sturm (58:51)

That's right. That's right. And they don't. And I don't know why. I don't know if Jerry thinks that he'd be letting down. I mean we can say he's cheap, but I don't know if that's fair. I wonder if at times he thinks affecting coaches salaries league wide is, I don't want to say collusion to do it the other way, but league friendly to. If you just start paying a coordinator 9 million to come coach for you, do you make every single owner mad at you? And is the approval of his fellow owners far more important than it used to be? I don't know. I can't. But you're right. There's no cap. They have endless resources and, and they choose not to use those resources for their football operation, at least to the, to the maximum of their ability. I got one last one for you.

George Dunham (59:52)

Okay.

Bob Sturm (59:53)

And it is this. What do you think of Dak Prescott playing in week 18? What do you think of CD Lamb playing in week 18?

George Dunham (60:03)

I don't love it. I don't love it because what if that major injury happens and we're talking about they don't rejoin the team until October of next year. I don't love the idea that's. I don't mind playing Joe Milton and.

Bob Sturm (60:24)

No, I don't either. I just. I just think it's an interesting conversation on how we have now accepted in our lifetime and I think our dads would be upset with us. We, we have accepted the idea that perfectly healthy athletes sit out games because what could possibly happen like if you're injured.

George Dunham (60:50)

Well, I'm paying this guy a third of my salary cap. So yes, I don't want him rehabbing a broken leg or a worse.

Bob Sturm (61:03)

We don't. And if we had a playoff game in two weeks, that'd be one thing. And if he has a preexisting condition or injury, that's another thing. I guess what we're talking about here is just load management of perfectly healthy football Players or basketball players just sitting out because there is a greater than zero risk that the next time you play an organized activity, even a practice, you could get hurt. I mean, that's. It is true. You could get hurt. Heck, I could get hurt on a treadmill. So. So I'm not saying it's not a real thing. I am saying with college football players opting out of bowl games because they want to get ready for the draft, you're like, man, I don't know. I feel like playing in a bowl game for your school is an important thing. And I think load management sucks because what if I got my son a Christmas gift to go see Steph Curry when he comes to town? But Steph is sitting out tonight. Well, why is he sitting out, dad? Well, he's perfectly healthy, but the science tells us that if he plays too many games without a rest, something bad could go wrong. I just think it's bad for the product to say, if I'm out of playoff contention, I should take anybody out of my lineup who has a big contract. So I. I really just bring it up not to argue and not to say I have a perfect answer, but to say I. If you don't have a game for nine months, I just. I feel like you kind of owe the game to. To give an honest effort for at least part of the game to. To make. Not rip off the fans who care enough to be at these games. But. But maybe I'm yelling at a cloud. I don't know.

George Dunham (62:51)

No, I think it's. I think it's a really good conversation. The other part of it is if the Cowboys played a bunch of dudes that rarely played this year and got beat, and somehow the Dolphins win and the Falcons win again and the Buccaneers win again, all of a sudden you go up from 14 to 11 in the draft. Three spots, Bob.

Bob Sturm (63:19)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, there's. There's a entire community out there that wants to begin tanking for next year's draft about October 1st. Every year, if you start 2 and 3, we need to start tanking. And. And it's just. I mean, there's people that want. And honestly, I think a lot of the people that love to tank because we can increase our draft pick by two or three slots also are the type of people that do think that every time we play a game, my guy could have his career end because of an injury. And I just. I don't know.

George Dunham (63:59)

You can't think that way.

Bob Sturm (64:02)

It just feels to me like we're cheating. The game. And then we put the players in this weird position where if they do try to be good entertainers, you know, the old. Was it Joe DiMaggio who I think first was the guy to say, you know, I play so hard because somebody's in the crowd who's only seen me for the only time they'll ever see me, and I want to play as hard as I can for them and put on a show. And people have said that since Michael Jordan said it. Many, many athletes have said it. I just, I think they're in the no win situation of if they do sit out to preserve their health, they get ripped. And if they don't sit out but actually do get hurt trying to do the right thing, they get ripped. For that, the team gets ripped. We should fire the coach for malpractice because he, he put his quarterback out there and there was nothing to gain. So I don't know that there's a good answer for it, but I do know I don't like the idea that we are looking for any excuse to take athletes out of games when they're perfectly healthy. So, no, I guess it's a weird.

George Dunham (65:05)

Place for the sermon, but no, I think it's a really good conversation. And I do agree with you. We do need people to get ripped. We need more of that.

Bob Sturm (65:14)

You know what, that's the key to, to our freedom is just making sure people get ripped. That's what we're here for, George.

George Dunham (65:23)

Well, that is what we're here for. To rip people to try to make sense. Oh, one real quick question. Was the number of interest before the start of the season for you? 7 and a half wins or 8 and a half wins?

Bob Sturm (65:35)

Seven and a half.

George Dunham (65:37)

Well, this is a very big game for one Bob Sturm, then. Yeah.

Bob Sturm (65:42)

Yeah. Well, I'm not just, not just Bob Sturm. I would say any of us who believed in the Cowboys in 2025, now.

George Dunham (65:52)

Now I'm figuring out why. It's like, are you kidding me? You're not playing Dak. I get it, Bob. I get it.

Bob Sturm (65:57)

No, those two things are not related. I believe Joe Milton could get us the win. But, but yes, I, I should disclose, in the, in the interest of complete honesty, I should disclose that I owe. I own some shares of this stock that I am propping up here as football friends.

George Dunham (66:17)

It's a very interesting number. And who knew that?

Bob Sturm (66:20)

I've got the Cowboys. I've got the Cowboys big on Sunday.

George Dunham (66:26)

Oh, man. Okay, see, now we all have a reason to watch on Sunday. At noon. Kevin Coogler and DJ Moose Johnston doing the game on Fox. And you're here to talk about it next week.

Bob Sturm (66:40)

What's that you're thinking? The Cowboys can't hurt me anymore this season. I've already given up on them. And then you say, you know what? Here's how I can do it. I need to gamble. And then I can let them stomp on my heart one last time.

George Dunham (66:52)

I'll kick you one more time right in the jewels. How about that for good measure?

Bob Sturm (66:57)

Just for the holidays.

George Dunham (67:00)

Just for the holidays. Well, thanks to Peter Welton once again for putting this together. He is the best. So are you, Bob. You are my football friend. And let's do this. Next week, musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. Football friends.

Bob Sturm (67:17)

Yeah.

George Dunham (67:18)

Yeah.

Bob Sturm (67:24)

The United States Soccer Federation presents the U.S. soccer Podcast.

George Dunham (67:28)

My name is David Goss and I'm joined by my co host Megan Klinenberg.

Bob Sturm (67:32)

Everything up until this point has been an outside look at the World cup and now we're giving people an inside look. It is just total pressure cooker.

George Dunham (67:42)

Watching flags come out of little plastic balls is like the epitome of everything that I love. And the World cup is everything. It's why I became a soccer fan.

Bob Sturm (67:51)

The U.S. soccer Podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.