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- [00:02]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:32]
George Dunham
It'S the musers. The podcast Cowboys edition. Football friends. It's George Dunham and Bob Stern. We are football friends, and we're here to talk cowboys with you. Because if we didn't do this, Bob, how would anyone possibly be ready for the next game?
- [00:50]
Bob Sturm
There's no question it's an unexplored space talking about the Cowboys. Really, the rest of the media hasn't picked up on this yet, so let's get there first. Let's talk some cowboys. Maybe we could start some sort of a trend regionally where people decide to find microphones and then talk about this football team.
- [01:12]
George Dunham
So, yeah, there's just not enough cowboys talk out there. Really. So, no, let's. Let's get started with the really good stuff. But you got something before we talk about a score. Gummy of Cowboys 40, Packers 40. And get set for the New York JTS. Jets. Jets. Jets. You got something for me?
- [01:34]
Bob Sturm
Well, I do, and this one is. I'd like to think I'm prepared to answer this question, but I clearly wasn't this week, and so I wanted to bring it over to you. So, you know, these. These kids these days, they go to these places called bars, and in these bars, they might be drinking, they might be looking for that special someone that is missing from their. Or they might be playing bar trivia.
- [02:01]
George Dunham
Oh, yeah.
- [02:01]
Bob Sturm
And on this occasion, somebody up in cheese land thought of me as their ace in the hole. Their phone, a friend when they were playing barroom trivia. So they sent me a actual screenshot of what they were looking at, and they asked the following question. What was the original name of the Dallas Cowboys? Do you need the choices or do you know this?
- [02:26]
George Dunham
You know, I'm getting older. I need the choices. I think I will get this right, but give me the choices.
- [02:32]
Bob Sturm
Okay. A, steers, B, pioneers, C, Ranchers. And D, Lone Stars. And then she says, do you know this? And I said, I guess not, because I'm almost positive they were always the cowboys. This feels like a trick question.
- [02:53]
George Dunham
Boy, that does. But I think answer A is what you're looking for.
- [02:57]
Bob Sturm
I think, okay, and you're right. It was the steers.
- [03:01]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [03:01]
Bob Sturm
But then I looked it up with my newspaper archives, and for the Life of me, George, I can't find any. Like, during the time. That's how newspapers handle things, is they are their boots on the ground. They are documenting history as it happens. And then what we have is, after the fact, somebody will have a story that anecdotally traces back to, let's say, 1958. And then we sort of rewrite history by putting the Steers as the proposed name in 1958. I'm just telling you, from a Fort Worth Star Telegram and a Dallas Morning News standpoint, I don't see any traces of anything called the Dallas Steers in, like, the 1950s, but it clearly was the steers based on history accounts that go back there that might have been published in the 80s and 90s. So, okay, does that make sense? I don't really know. I don't know what happened here.
- [04:02]
George Dunham
Yeah, I've heard that through the years. I don't know the backstory. It's taken me four weeks to get to the bottom of the Dallas Cowboys band.
- [04:10]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [04:10]
George Dunham
But I promise you, this is not a Matt Damon thing.
- [04:14]
Bob Sturm
Not at all.
- [04:14]
George Dunham
Next week. No, next week, I will bring you the foremost historian on the Dallas Cowboys Band.
- [04:23]
Bob Sturm
I'm so excited.
- [04:24]
George Dunham
Details of how long it lasted, why it ended, how it got started, what they played, everything you want to know, but I'm going to write down what's the deal with the steers. I've just always heard that through the years, and I don't know the story behind it. Was it. Would you in any way prefer University of Texas, maybe?
- [04:45]
Bob Sturm
That's another great question. Can you imagine a parallel universe where you are rooting for the Dallas Steers every week, and how would that change things for you?
- [04:56]
George Dunham
Steers. That's just a strange sounding name. Steers.
- [05:01]
Bob Sturm
It is. Although it feels like something the people of the 50s would have come up with. If I may. Yeah, yeah.
- [05:08]
George Dunham
Late 50s, early 60s steers would have made a lot of sense, but. Okay, we're going to get to the bottom of that one, too.
- [05:14]
Bob Sturm
We've.
- [05:15]
George Dunham
I think we've solved the Cowboys Band problem, and we will actually. This is not a bad Matt Damon thing. We will bring you the complete answer to that on next week's episode. But we got to jump into a score. Gummy of Cowboys 40, Packers 40.
- [05:32]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [05:33]
George Dunham
It's taken us all a few days to unpack. How do you feel about a tie? You watch that game? I believe it's called soccer.
- [05:43]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [05:44]
George Dunham
Football. Some call it.
- [05:46]
Bob Sturm
Sure.
- [05:47]
George Dunham
Our producer Peter Welton's way into that. And ties happen. All the time for y'. All. But yeah, it takes a couple of days to process how you feel after a tie. And.
- [06:00]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, it sure does. And if I may, I don't think ties should exist. I do enjoy my soccer and my hockey and things of that nature over the years, so I have come to grips with the premise. But in the National Football League, it feels wildly unnecessary. Baseball doesn't have ties and we ask why. Well, of course, we just don't do ties. We think it's a ridiculous thing. It's un American, they might say in both Durham. And I just feel like the NFL should be right there. There's no reason you can't play till somebody scores. You only play one game a week there. We don't have to catch a plane to get to our game for tomorrow. There's, there's a lot to that. But if we just leave that aside and say, Bob, George, how should I feel about a 4040 tie? It's, it's kind of the year in a nutshell, isn't it? Because if, if you use the Larry David sort of contort your face and try to figure out how you feel about something, I think it would be this team. They're the number one offense and the number 32 defense and, and seldom do we see such a thing of where on one side of the ball you feel pretty great and on the other side of the ball you feel like this is trash. And I think a tie summarizes that pretty well, doesn't it?
- [07:29]
George Dunham
I think so. Okay. And I've heard you talk about it this week, 10 minutes, maybe change that to 12. We had a couple of letters to our show this week on, on our radio station the Ticket in Dallas, and I heard a really good suggestion that if the first team scores, in this case a field goal, like the Cowboys did with their possession, now Green Bay's got the. Got the ball that they should have the same amount of time that the Cowboys took to score. In other words, no 10 minute overtime, but just you get the ball at your own 25. And if it takes you two plays to score, you can put pressure on your opponent by taking 45 seconds to score a touchdown. Or in the case of the Cowboys, what if you took whatever it was, six or seven minutes to score a field goal? Well, now your opponent has whatever that time was, six minutes to either kick a field goal or score a touchdown and win the game. How about that?
- [08:42]
Bob Sturm
It's certainly one option. Isn't the other option just add two minutes each team Gets the ball and we see what happens. And I don't love the college system, but it's better than what the NFL is doing. And, and I just don't, you know, I don't really buy that this requires, you know, like, like I heard Jerry say, well, we still want to respect the three hour window. Fine. There's been one cowboy tie in 56 years, so it's not like this hasn't been very often. Yeah, so. So on the rare occasion where we can't sort things out after four quarters, let's, let's just stay here until we do. And I just don't think that's going to be nearly as cumbersome and tedious as people say. So I would say, okay, Green Bay gets the ball. If they do better than a field goal, they win. If they kick a field goal, we keep playing. And I just, I don't, I don't see what's wrong with that. I, you know, soccer, they have limited substitutions and so guys literally can't move at a certain point. And that's just not worthy of, of any sort of extension in my mind. But in American football where you have endless substitutions and seemingly big enough rosters, I, it feels like a very, very silly outcome. But that was a very, very silly game, George. And I guess, I guess my big takeaways are very consistent with what we've talked about here for, what have we done, four or five episodes now?
- [10:16]
George Dunham
Yeah, something like that.
- [10:18]
Bob Sturm
I just, I feel still like the two most important positions on a football team are head coach and quarterback. And I feel that in 2025, the Cowboys are getting much better than average from both of them. And maybe Schottenheimer is the one who really increased his, his score this week because I think he easily out coached a guy who we think is a pretty good Coach and Matt LaFleur. And maybe all he did to out coach him was just let Matt LaFleur make a bunch of ridiculous mistakes. But regardless, I thought Schottenheimer was the best coach on the field and I thought Dak Prescott was the best quarterback on the field. And if you do that enough times, you're going to have a winning season and a chance at the playoffs. And I think we've seen it for four straight weeks, to be honest. Not necessarily that. Dak has always been the best quarterback because Jalen Hurts was very good in week one and Caleb was obviously very good in week three. But Dak has never been anything short of the best offensive player each week. And that's Remarkable. And now Schottenheimer. Maybe that's where we should spend some time. George, Is that. Imagine Schottenheimer's week last week. He had to deal with all the mica noise. He had to deal with getting spanked by the Chicago Bears. He had to deal with a game where you're a touchdown dog in your own place and people are talking about it's desperate and, and, and, and maybe the season's already lost and he had to deal with a broken offensive line. No. CD Lamb. And knowing that Micah was going to try to have a Randy Moss 1998 game, and in all of that, was able to design a game plan that put 40 points on the board and pretty much kept his quarterback untouched for the entire night. I just, I think that's what you're looking for, schematically from an offensive strategist. And I thought Schonheimer was amazing.
- [12:22]
George Dunham
Well, I thought he was, too. I thought the game plan was just terrific. And even from the start of, let's load up with two, three tight ends. Let's smash the ball. Okay, that's not working so good. Let's, let's go ahead and spread the field and start throwing it. But we've got to help out on that guy wearing number one in green, which I thought they did a great job of, and I know you've talked about it on your show this week and going back and looking at the game, are we ready to call this Dak Prescott's best game ever? Given all the circumstances in the regular season?
- [12:58]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, he's had some great ones. But, but I would say, given what is critically said about him, which is he doesn't play well in big games and in big spots, you could, you could quickly argue that those games against Tampa Bay, home and away in week one, those two years where Brady was there, were. Were unbelievable. You could, you could probably name several others against the Eagles and so forth, but, but, man, pound for pound, given what he had to work with and given the problems right in front of him that, like, Micah played well enough to have three and a half, four sacks in that game, and Dak is the single reason it didn't happen. And if that's Tom Brady, if that's Drew Brees, if that's Peyton Manning, we're like, you see, that's a veteran quarterback who's just smarter than his opponents. But with Dak, nobody wants to really throw around the big compliments because there's so much, there's, there's so many preconceived notions about who he is. And. And I just think that's what this season can be for him, is a chance to sort of rewrite the narratives. And I think, you know, like when people say, what do you like about Dak so much? Why do you defend him when. When the rest of us seem to agree that he's trash and that the Cowboys need a better quarterback? I say, because I think if you study his play in a detached sort of way, I know that's so hard, but if you can just detach the 30 years from Dak Prescott and say, okay, what am I looking for? A quarterback at this very spot. Okay, I need him in pre snap to recognize this and to coordinate this and to audible into this and to recognize this blitz and to set his offensive line protection and all these things that a quarterback has to do pre snap. Dak does them not only at a good level, but at a great level most of the time, and then has to deliver the throw on time and on target and also move around in the pocket and just keep plays alive. And he does that very, very well. And yet somehow we still have it in our head that the Cowboys have a disadvantage at the quarterback position. And I just. I don't think it jives with facts and reality. And I know. I know that it eventually comes back to January and February, and I don't know how to resolve that any more than I knew how to resolve it with Tony Romo, who, by the way, I think has a wildly similar story. And that's the. That's the discussion for any Cowboys thing, George, is you say these guys are good, and yet they can't get out of the wild card round. So they're clearly not good. And it's frustrating for those players, it's frustrating for the media on either side of the discussion, and I'm sure it's frustrating for anybody who has ever taken a dollar from the Cowboys organization, but it's kind of where we are, and I don't know how to get out of this vortex until they do.
- [16:04]
George Dunham
Well, welcome to the quarterback position in Dallas. This has been going on a long time. Yes, Roger used to get called a choker. Troy was called a guy who's too robotic and couldn't get it done. And then, you know, in year three, they take off. My guy, Danny White, got this team to three straight NFC title games, put them ahead in a game that has become one of the most legendary games ever in the catch. Had an 80% winning percentage as a starting quarterback, and Cowboy fans couldn't wait to get him out of the job because he didn't win enough. He wasn't Roger.
- [16:43]
Bob Sturm
And Right.
- [16:45]
George Dunham
It's. It's out of whack with. With other quarterback jobs in this league.
- [16:50]
Bob Sturm
It is.
- [16:50]
George Dunham
Our friend Troy says it comes with the dinner. You're expected to be good. You're expected to be a champion. But all I know is it's a streak now of three straight games. It's the longest in the NFL with 200 and at least 250 yards and 30 completions. It's the second time he's done that in his career. That's a really hard thing to do. And he's completed 72% of his passes, which is the most in the NFL right now. He's off to an incredible start, and we talked about it on our radio show on the Ticket this week. The sad reality is, and maybe it's this way in other parts of the country, but in this town, people just tend to nod their head and go, just what you said. Okay, we'll see. It happens come January. Can we not enjoy it in September and October? Can we just look at a guy and go, wow, he's really playing well?
- [17:49]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And can we acknowledge that if doing this in September was really easy, wouldn't everybody do it? And it's not easy. You know, what these guys do is not easy on any level. And the fact that we just sort of dismiss it with such ease, it's got to be frustrating. And so when. When we say that's that comes with the dinner, then maybe we shouldn't begrudge them for making the money. Like, I think that's a huge part of the Dak and even Romo discussions over the years is that they are paid at the very top of the quarterback scale. I mean, when Tony Romo got his contract in 2013, I don't think he was number one, but I do believe he was number two at the time to Peyton Manning's deal. And so he took a ton of money, and everybody's like, well, why does Romo get so much money if he doesn't win in the playoffs? And it's a great question, I guess, except that isn't really how contracts work. The contracts work based on what you do in the regular season to give your team a chance to go to the playoffs, and then the playoffs is legacy stuff. But I guess what I'm saying is, in both cases, Romo and Dak have been paid absurd amounts of money relative to the time they played and relative to their Playoff accomplishments. And maybe the way to break it down is you get the extra money here because of all the extra blame you're going to take as well. And so you're going to get blamed for everything that isn't your fault, but at least you're going to be rich beyond your wildest dreams. Does that satisfy?
- [19:29]
George Dunham
Well, I think that's part of it. The expectation of what you're making, making and the money now is so crazy that that's even I would say something that, well, maybe Troy did deal with it because he was the highest paid Cowboy at that time. But I don't think to this, you know, like a, I don't think a million dollars in the early 90s sounded as crazy to us as 50 million does now.
- [19:57]
Bob Sturm
$3 million a game is kind of where we are right now. Actually more. I mean, Dak, if we're saying 60 and there's 17 games, then, then, you know, that's well north of 3 million a game. It's probably closer to three and a half. And, and the idea that a three and a half hour sporting event gets you three and a half million dollars every single Sunday, it's, it's mind boggling. At the same time, it's kind of based on two things. One, the revenues that this league generates and to the rarity of a quarterback who can do the job at a very, very high level. And so supply and demand. Let me go back to a stat from this week before we get too lost in the money weeds, I suppose, and that is this one. So Dak and The Cowboys had 40 points, 400 yards and zero turnovers. And that threshold sounds good, but not absurdly rare. And I looked it up and there's 14 occasions of this in Cowboy history. They, of course have won 13 of them and now have one tie. So 13. Oh, and one is kind of a funny record. But here's what I thought was a, was wild and I don't know if you saw the question on Twitter that I put out there, but of those 14 Cowboys games, would you like to parse out, wager out the pieces of the pie as to how many different Cowboy quarterbacks were part of those 14? And who has the most and who has, you know, can you, can you guess out of 14 occasions in Cowboys history, how many, let's say Dak and Romo and Staubach and Aikman are responsible for.
- [21:52]
George Dunham
Personally, I would say Dak and Romo will probably. And I did not see this. Bob, you put out a lot of tweets and I love them, but I know I do love them.
- [22:00]
Bob Sturm
I'm a volume shooter.
- [22:01]
George Dunham
You are. And I love it. It's one of the things I love about you. I would say that Romo and Dak have most of them. Troy may not even have but one or two. And maybe I'll throw in. Danny has one.
- [22:18]
Bob Sturm
Okay. So of the 14 all time, here is the. Here's the credit for each one. Guys with one each. Troy Aikman, Roger Staubach, Danny White.
- [22:35]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [22:36]
Bob Sturm
Tony Romo. They each have one.
- [22:39]
George Dunham
Wow.
- [22:40]
Bob Sturm
Players with two. Don Meredith.
- [22:45]
George Dunham
Wow. Okay.
- [22:46]
Bob Sturm
Players with three. Nobody. Four, nobody. Five. Nobody. Six. Nobody. Seven. Nobody. Players with eight. Dakota Prescott has done it eight times. Meredith two. Nobody else has done it more than once. The 40 points, 400 yards, zero turnovers, offensive game from the Cowboys.
- [23:09]
George Dunham
Wow.
- [23:09]
Bob Sturm
Eight. That's pretty crazy, right?
- [23:12]
George Dunham
That is crazy. That's a great number. And it helps when you have a ground game.
- [23:18]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [23:19]
George Dunham
And I think that's been the. I don't know if it's been the best thing, but it's been an element that has really helped out. Dak put up these numbers in the first four weeks. Javante Williams is second in the NFL in success rate of runs.
- [23:37]
Bob Sturm
That's right.
- [23:38]
George Dunham
I'm going to have you explain that here in a second. It's 65.1. Okay. And I mean, look at any category. Yards per carry, touchdowns. He's off to a. A great start. And I believe going into last week he was second in yards after contact. Man, he is. I didn't know what to expect. And he has been, he's been great.
- [24:03]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. I think the story has emerged here with the number one offense in the league that Javante Williams and George Pickens have been home runs. And neither of them cost you much for 2025, but both of them will cost you a ton for 2026. And so you have to decide, is this a one year deal for both of them? I would say with Williams, it's really easy because I think, you know, you could probably do a deal right now for Javante Williams at, let's say, I don't know, two or three years, six or seven million a year probably. And you'd probably feel pretty good about that given his age and given what he's shown you so far. With Pickens, obviously the math is way different where if you want him for three years, it might be three at 28 apiece or three at 25, four at 25 or, or three at 30. I don't know what his market is. But we do know wide receivers who can be dudes can pretty much decide, you know, they can write their own check and that's, that's going to be wild. But in both cases, George, they've been fantastic. With Williams, I don't think any of us had expectations at all because he had been so spare since he tore up his knee in Denver. But he's been great. And he runs like, he runs like every play is the most important play of his life. And, and he's physical and he sort of, he's one of those running backs where you kind of think he sets the tone for the offense. Like they, they see his style and then they start playing that style. And that can be your offensive line, that can be your wide receivers. But I think Javante Williams has a infectious style and it's a credit to him. For Pickens, I mean, that's what you dream of at wide receiver when CD Lamb is either available or unavailable is that I need another guy that terrifies defenses and punishes defenses if they don't double him and just can sort of make the game into total chaos. And I thought George Pickens has been so good and I think he's only going to get better. And when him and Lamb are out there, it should be unfair. And I think it is. And so I would, I realize he's going to be expensive and I realize people are terrified of, of, you know, his reputation. I, I don't have any hesitation on either. I would, I would get a deal done sooner rather than later because those guys are hard to find.
- [26:42]
George Dunham
He's got a three game streak. George Pickens does with a touchdown and that's the longest of his career. So I think he's having fun here too. And yes, let's keep him happy.
- [26:54]
Bob Sturm
He's got a quarterback.
- [26:55]
George Dunham
Yes, it's by far the best quarterback he's had since he's been in the league. All right, the defense is another story. And even after giving up 40 and all those yards and all those big plays, call me crazy, but I saw some improvement for the Cowboys defense. And I'll try to explain that next in our football friends conversation.
- [27:23]
Bob Sturm
For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries. And a drink. We may need to change that jingle.
- [27:36]
George Dunham
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- [29:16]
Bob Sturm
How? Let's. I'm not saying I disagree, but I would love to hear your thought process.
- [29:21]
George Dunham
Well, I think the opponent was better to begin with and yeah, they did give up 40 and no, they didn't get off the field when they really needed to. But I think I know this is a baby step, but in throwing situations I did not see as many wide open receivers as I have the last couple of weeks. I think Duron Bland helps. Yes, I think James Houston showed out again and maybe played turned in the biggest play of the game that changed the tone of the game to knock the ball loose and all of a sudden you've got at least a 10 point turnaround there.
- [30:03]
Bob Sturm
Hot fries.
- [30:05]
George Dunham
We can't tip our hat just yet, Bob.
- [30:07]
Bob Sturm
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Sorry, sorry. I got excited. No, I think, I think you're exactly right, Georgie. For me, when I looked at the the explosive plays which, which give me indigestion because I'll just say it Again, in this league, there is big belief that the turnover differential is still important, but not as important as the explosive play differential to some coaches. Now we can debate which is more important. We can say both are very important. But the Cowboys, to play winning football, can no longer give up this many explosive plays. And so against the Giants it was seven, against the Bears it was five. And against the packers it was five. And so just to let you know, they're the worst chunk play defense in the league right now through four. And it's a remarkable, remarkable ineptitude festival. And it has to stop. They, I think, I want to say the league leaders last year gave up about four and a half a game and the Cowboys are giving up about five and a half a game right now. So they're going to absolutely destroy the leagues. The league leaderboards here if they keep this up. To your point though, there was only one WTF pass on Sunday and that was like the first pass of the game for the packers where they went downfield and, and everybody looked confused. And in fact, Matthew golden probably prevented Don Tavian Wicks from a touchdown by sort of running into him. And so that's, that's amazing and remarkable. But honestly, the other chunk plays were all plays to the flat. The Jordan Love scramble, the Josh Jacobs kind of rugby pass to the sideline, the, a couple screen passes. Oh, the, the Josh Jacobs little, little pass out to the flat there in the final minute of regulation. They, I guess what I'm saying is there were five chunk plays, but only one looks like a secondary chaos moment, as you said. And they're, they seemed way more organized as a secondary. And I think you're right. That's probably Duron Bland returning. But now Malik Hooker's gone and so you have very inexperienced and maybe not very good safety play to look forward to for the next several weeks.
- [32:52]
George Dunham
Well, it hasn't been that great in the first four weeks, that's true.
- [32:56]
Bob Sturm
But yeah, but just imagine he beat out these guys for the job these.
- [33:03]
George Dunham
Other places, like Wanye Thomas. Okay.
- [33:05]
Bob Sturm
And he's a great special teams guy. Is he a great center fielder? We're about to find out. But these, these other plays, just a, just a conveyor belt of linebacker problems, I think, I think, I think the linebacker position is quickly becoming the big target on the whiteboard for opponents. Is. And maybe it goes back to that ridiculous screen for the Bears ran. But now the packers who love screenshots, you know, just, just did it all night. And really the disappointing one for me, you know, And Kenneth Murray's had his problems and Sanborn's had his problems and, and Liafu is, is, you know, I don't know what's going on with him. I think he's probably your best linebacker available. But I also think he must drive the coaches nuts. And then we saw that ridiculous personal follow up from him. So maybe that explains what the coaches are seeing. Yeah, but man, Shamar James, our young rookie from Florida, I was hoping for better from him. I don't know if you saw on.
- [34:15]
George Dunham
The tape turned around on that one big pass play.
- [34:19]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, yeah. And even the Jordan Love scramble. So James comes on, you know, and he's playing a lot in the fourth quarter and the two big packer chunk plays, the 25 yard scramble and then the 25 yard short pass to Jacobs that got them right into field goal both times. James just looks like he's just not very fast or athletic for a rookie. And then I went to check and he barely ran a 4 7. And I just remember at Florida they were like, man, he's always around the ball sideline to sideline, he gets to the ball, he. He causes chaos. So I want to give him a chance. Maybe he was just confused or something on Sunday night. But I, you know, I need these rookies to be the fastest guys on the field. So that wasn't, that wasn't particularly encouraging there.
- [35:08]
George Dunham
I did see some better line play too and it didn't always, you know, it didn't result in a sack, it didn't result in anything big outside of. I thought a res as a raku showed something. The most he has showed now it's a Green Bay line that's a little depleted. They were missing a couple of guys too. I don't know. I just, I saw just a little more activity up front it the eyeball test. I mean I don't even have any stats really to back it up because hurries I know weren't that great. But it to the eyeball, 90% of it looked better except the killer plays that they once again gave up on third down.
- [35:56]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, yeah. So from that standpoint you have Ezra Rocku and Clowney really playing well. I would say in looking at both of them carefully this week. George Clowney was, was chaotic in a, probably in a good way where he, he's bowling a china shop. I don't know that he always is able to sort of control where he's going. But he was flying around running into stuff and causing chaos. I bet you Jadevian Clowney was extremely Sore because he didn't play that much, but he was running into collisions constantly. Ezraku is interesting, especially from the team that told us Micah Parsons wasn't great against the run, is to get another edge who's also in his 240s and also is very fast and athletic on the pass rush. But in the run game there's a couple, there's a couple zone plays where he is getting moved way too easily by tight ends. In fact, if you can go to that Josh Jacobs touchdown and look at that play on the one where he kind of cuts back on Diggs into the end zone. Yeah, go back and watch Ezraku fly through the air as a tight end is just plowing him right out. I mean, that's his edge, you know, I need. So I'm going to give as a Raku all the grace that a rookie deserves. But I'm also going to say, you know, he might be like Bruce Irvin, if you remember him with the Seahawks, is, you know, here's a, here's a guy who's barely 235 now. Ezraku probably is going to get bigger and he's listed at 248. So maybe, maybe this is just a kid who was dealing with the ACC and now he's in the NFL and let's check back in 18 months and see where his body's at. But for now, probably a above average pass rusher and probably a below average run defender. And so, you know, there's a lot of these guys, Dante Fowlers, just like that. Now Sam Williams is a big strong guy. He can handle it. Marshawn Neyland is probably more of a run defender than a pass rusher. So James Houston is the guy who seems to keep making plays, but he also seems like their sixth option on the edge. So they've got a, they've got a lot of work to do on this defense. And for me, you know, and I wrote about this this morning and I bet you have plenty to say on this as well. To me, I know Matt Eberfluss is going to take the brunt of this and, and it's probably appropriate, but at the same time, you know, I just feel like if you go through the last five drafts and you look at the defense, I believe the numbers today and I want to make sure I get this right, Georgie. So, so let me find it real fast. But the Cowboys have had 45 picks in the last five drafts and 26 of those 45 were spent on defense.
- [39:11]
George Dunham
Okay?
- [39:11]
Bob Sturm
And of those 26 players. You have Micah Parsons, who you just dealt away, and then three other guys I would say are solid starters or better. Osa, Duron, Bland. And I'm going to give you a strong maybe on Demarvian Overshone.
- [39:33]
George Dunham
Okay?
- [39:35]
Bob Sturm
And that's it. Of 26 defenders, the others who at least help you and our roster guys and maybe have a chance. Sam Williams, although he already needs a contract, so I don't know. Marshawn Neyland, Maris, Liafu, Siobhan Ravel, who we haven't even seen play it down yet, and Donovan as a Raku. They all have a chance. But when we talk about why does the defense stink, let me give you some reasons. Calvin Joseph, second rounder, Nayshaun Wright, third rounder. Chauncey Golston, third rounder, of course, Mozzie Smith would like to have a conversation here. You know, Junior Fahoko was a fourth round defensive tackle. Could you use that? Overshone looks to be a stud, but let's be honest, he's ripped a knee in 2023, his rookie year. He ripped a knee in 2024, his second year. Like any other player, we are saying this guy just his body can't do it. He's Sean Lee or something like that. But because Overshone is a DFW guy we love and a Longhorn and all this stuff, you know, it's like we're willing to cut him enormous amounts of slack, but bro, he is like one strike away from being a guy who simply his body can't do it. And then 2024, you'd like to think Marshawn Nealon and Liafu are starters and maybe unchallenged starters who you can just let play. And, and they're guys who are rotational at best. And then Kaylin Carson looks like he's disappeared since his arrival and you know, now it's like Shamar James. I don't know. Jay to is Siobhan Ravel a real person? And you know, so. So these five drafts, I understand Will McClay has a reputation. I understand the Cowboys have a reputation of already hitting all their first round picks, but man, I don't know what scheme you can run if in five years and 26 picks you basically got me two and a half players that, that I can just put out there and not worry about it.
- [41:40]
George Dunham
Well, that's a great point. And that's why they're 31st in points, 32nd and net yards. Which, by the way, have you found the team in NFL history? Because I have not. This is only four weeks into the season. But has anyone ever been close to first in yards on offense and last in yards on yards given up on defense for an entire season?
- [42:06]
Bob Sturm
I have to believe in the crazy 80s it did happen and I need to look into that because I swear to you, my, I haven't gone that far back yet. I swear my Lynn Dickey packers probably did it when they're losing when they're beating Washington 4847 on Monday Night Football back in 83 or 84, whatever that year was. That that is intriguing. You know, what comes to mind, and I'm sure everybody listening will love this, especially in Singapore, is the Lindy Ruff Stars, I think were number one in offense and number last in defense. So, okay, if you like six, five hockey games, that's what you're getting right now with your Big 12 Dallas Cowboys or your Dallas Steers, I suppose. But. But yeah, I mean I, I looked at the rankings and I know you did as well. But we're now to a point where the offense is almost number or excuse me, the offense is number one. But they're, they're basically top ten in almost every category that we keep. So I keep 10 categories. Points, yards rushing, yards passing yards, turnovers, third downs, red zone, explosive plays, sacks per attempt, and time of possession. And so the Cowboys are top 10 in eight of those. They have a few too many turnovers and time of possession. And then we flip it over to the defense and their bottom 10 in almost everything. Ironically, they're only 12th worse in rushing yards against, so. So they wanted to get better at stopping the run, George. And they're up to number 20 in stopping the run. So they have improved there. Unfortunately, they have gone down in every other category and they're dead last in yards allowed, passing yards allowed, third downs allowed, chunk plays allowed, and then they're 31st in points against because somehow the Ravens have actually allowed more points than the Dallas Cowboys.
- [44:12]
George Dunham
Yeah. How about that? I do think some of it is fixable when it comes to coverage and just trying to do whatever Matt Eber Floose is looking to accomplish. But I just think this is going to be a wild ride for the defense and they're going to give up chunks and they're going to give up points and it's back to the offense now. Okay. I know last week we barely won when we scored. We're going to need 45 this week. Can you do it? And complimentary football. I think that's why they came out very conservative against the packers because I think that was Schottenheimer's plan. Hey, let's, let's grind this sucker out and let's really make this a, you know, three or four possession game per half. And the problem was he found out in those first two possessions, okay, it's going to be this. We got to spread the field a little bit and I'm going to have to rely on four because we can't go two tight ends, three tight ends against these dudes and just grind it out. Four and a half yards per carry.
- [45:25]
Bob Sturm
Right. And really, regardless of the sport, it's the same concept where we just need our offense to erase the bad things our defense is doing. We need the ultimate eraser. We need white out, which is a offense that just keeps scoring and keeps sponging up all the spills. And that's where we are now. Here's the thing. They got six games here. I'm going to do this because I like to do this. Especially if you took the over in the season win totals, your next six games. Jets, Panthers, commanders at home. Broncos, Cardinals, Raiders.
- [46:07]
George Dunham
That's not that scary.
- [46:08]
Bob Sturm
How many playoff teams do you see there? Maybe Washington.
- [46:16]
George Dunham
Washington. But man, I think they're going to have to fight like heck to get in the playoffs, given their schedule and what we've seen so far.
- [46:22]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, we don't know about the Broncos either, but we do know our. Our life tells us that pretty much every time the Cowboys go to Denver, bad things happen. So. So I'm. I'm going to. I'm going to say getting that game in Denver in four weeks is going to be tough. But. But of these six games, I'm not saying you're going six and oh, I'm not saying you're going four and two. I'm saying when the game starts, I'm going to sit down thinking the Cowboys can get a win today, all six times. Now, that might be delusional, and I might be delusional, George, but I guess what I'm saying is have coach have quarterback will travel. And I'm saying in these cases, with CD Lamb hypothetically coming back. And I know I have Javante Williams and I know I have George Pickens, and I know I have Kevonte Turpin, and I know my offensive line can regain health with BB And Booker at some point here before too long. Let's put it this way, a offense that can score 40 should give you more optimism than a great defense and an offense that can't score like, like the jets, for instance, are A what should be a very good defense, but their offense could Never get them 40 if their life depended on it. So that's just flipping which unit is better. And this might actually be a team building exercise. If you had $300 million to spend on your cap, George, how much would you put on offense and how much would you put on defense? You could argue this is the CD Lamb Micah Parsons discussion of. Okay, I'm paying my quarterback. I can pay one other guy. Do I want a playmaker or do I want a sack guy? And which one actually leads to more wins in the National Football League or a more competitive franchise? And I think the answer is. The answer the Cowboys came up with. Probably.
- [48:26]
George Dunham
Yeah, I think probably is. I think most teams would. I would go, I don't know what the percentage. 60, 40, 70. Yeah, 60. 40 sounds good in my head.
- [48:36]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [48:37]
George Dunham
And you're talking about a Jets team that we keep talking down about because they're owing four. They are top 10 and just about every defensive category except forcing turnovers, which.
- [48:51]
Bob Sturm
Is the biggest of them.
- [48:53]
George Dunham
Yes.
- [48:54]
Bob Sturm
Right. Because they're last in the NFL.
- [48:56]
George Dunham
They have not forced one.
- [48:58]
Bob Sturm
They're last in the NFL and turnover differential.
- [49:00]
George Dunham
That's four football games without a turnover.
- [49:04]
Bob Sturm
Right? Yeah, they're probably due.
- [49:08]
George Dunham
Okay, let's talk about the Jets. Jets. Jets. Jets. Next here on our Cowboys edition of the Musers, the podcast Football Friends.
- [49:23]
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- [50:18]
George Dunham
There are places in the NFL that just kind of give me the creeps. And the Meadowlands playing the jets is just one of those. My perception is the Cowboys have a hard time winning there, and it's somewhat accurate, but the last time they won in New Jersey was 2003. That's how long ago it was now they've only played the Jets 13 times overall and. But the last time they played there was 2019. They got beat by 2, 24, 22.
- [51:01]
Bob Sturm
That went. That was a very frustrating game. So it was 2011.
- [51:06]
George Dunham
So 2011 was 27, 24. Wasn't that.
- [51:10]
Bob Sturm
Wasn't that like 911 or something? I feel like that was the 10 year anniversary of 9 11.
- [51:16]
George Dunham
It was. It was. Yes, nine. Very good. Bob. 911, 2011.
- [51:21]
Bob Sturm
We had a very frustrating Dez Bryant night as I recall, as. As that. That opened the season in 2011. Yeah. And there was some. You're right. When they go there, bad things happen.
- [51:35]
George Dunham
Yeah. Generally they lost there in 1990. I don't remember much about that game. I do remember 1978 because I think Danny started that game, Danny White started for Roger Stallback and they wanted old Shea Stadium. You know, the jets are on four. They've got all sorts of offensive problems, but they do have a solid defense and they have a quarterback who can run. Does that scare you?
- [52:07]
Bob Sturm
Boy, that run on Monday night was fun. The just complete chaos. I, I am a Justin Fields believer in the sense that when he left Ohio State, I definitely saw a potential star. So much so that when the Bears did their big trade to get to him, I'm like, oh boy, the Bears got themselves a quarterback finally. And there's. I think in modern NFL, George, we almost need a name for the quarterback that kind of busts out early and then revives his career a la Sam Darnold. Maybe Allah, Gino, maybe Baker. There's several guys who, who are thought of as this can be our franchise quarterback. And then we give him two and a half years and he flops. And then he sort of recovers and has a great career. Maybe not exactly at the level you expected, but still at a very, very high level. And then we all. He was. This is, this is a Sam Darnold we saw at usc. We shouldn't be shocked. We said he was going to be great. It just took him longer. And so the money is so high, the expectation is so high that the original franchise seems quick to, to dispose of the guy. But by the time they're in their mid to late 20s, they actually start to figure out this level. And I guess what I'm saying is I think Justin Fields can still be that guy. I really do. Yeah, I'm with you, but I just, I don't know how long and where I can depend on it because it becomes this year to year contract which which might even be the bigger discussion for we need a spring league where these guys can be like your property as a franchise. But then you are willing to give him like two years of, of 10, 12 starts in the spring league to really actually learn how to play football. I guess what I'm saying is I think this is a, a talent development problem for a league that doesn't really think that through. And so with Fields, I see all the tools, I see the unmolded clay. But I also say for this jets generation, they're just not going to have the patience to ride it out. They're frustrated. They want to believe that Aaron Glenn is a great coaching hire. I think it is. But you want to talk about pulling things all the way down to the studs and kind of starting over again. And the jets just don't have the energy to start over every single, you know, every single time like they had to. I think the Aaron Rodgers, Robert Saleh, hard knocks jets, you know, this, this couple years that they've just endured, I think, I think that took the battery life out of just about every jets apologist left on planet Earth.
- [55:18]
George Dunham
You know, the poor jets, they're just.
- [55:21]
Bob Sturm
They'Re just so tired.
- [55:23]
George Dunham
Yeah, I mean since Joe Namath, they had Richard Todd in the early 80s, Rex Ryan almost got him there. Back to back AFCC title games.
- [55:37]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [55:40]
George Dunham
Yeah, yeah. 2010, 2011. Yep, I believe. But since then they have, they've had one winning record since then. And on our radio station we talk about this all the time. Most beaten down fans in the NFL. Cleveland's up there, but jets fans have to be, I mean, who, who really remembers that now? You could say, well, they've been to, they've been closer to the super bowl than the Cowboys have been the last 31 years, if you want to rub salt in that wound, Bob.
- [56:13]
Bob Sturm
But I don't think anybody would.
- [56:15]
George Dunham
Yeah, they've got, I mean they've had bad football for decades in New York and I would think the Jet fan is pretty, pretty beaten down.
- [56:25]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I think, I think they may take the cake for most beaten down. You know, I just, I think, I think that's, that's the idea right there that they just, I think ownership is so important in the National Football League. And I think the jets have consistently found that their owner is a far more low profile, incompetent owner. Like, like we have a very high profile, incompetent owner, in my opinion here in Dallas, George. And everybody knows what he does and he's covered constantly by the news cycle. I think there are others that keep a much lower profile and they don't have Netflix documentaries built around their life and times. And I think Cincinnati does a great job of that. I think Chicago's done a great job of that, and I think the jets have done a great job. So if you want the key to turning your franchise around, it's probably get an owner who has enough sense to kind of stay out of the way and just ask how he can help. And I feel like Washington has done that recently. I definitely know the Ford family up in Detroit is like, okay, we're hiring Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes and we're getting out of your way. We trust you. Go do what you're here to do. And so, you know, there's a lot to that. But just I think overall with the jets, it's the same as it ever was. I see a lot of really fun who I would love to extract and get to my team and just the collection of them always looks like they're a team that takes all of the penalties, makes all of the mistakes and just sort of jets their way through a season. Now, can they beat the Cowboys? Of course they can, but this is a team you really need to beat.
- [58:24]
George Dunham
Yes. And that's interesting about the next few opponents for the Cowboys, those six games. That's interesting. You know, I wouldn't be that disappointed with three and three overall.
- [58:37]
Bob Sturm
No, no.
- [58:38]
George Dunham
I mean, if you're going to do something great this season, four or five would be fantastic. I just don't think that's realistic. And I think three and three during all that would. Would put you in decent position for whatever November could bring.
- [58:52]
Bob Sturm
Well, I think step one for a new franchise, and it's ridiculous to call it new because your. Your quarterb like entering his 10th year as starter. So you're not a new franchise, you're not a rebuilding franchise. But step one is we are very tricky at our place and the Cowboys are two and oh, even though they've. Or excuse me, they're undefeated at home, let's put it that way. But. But in both cases, they gave up a ridiculous amount of points and scored a ridiculous amount of points on the road, they're owing two. And they've been far more disappointing on both sides of the ball. The defense played pretty good in the first game. The offense played okay for a while in the game in Chicago, but they've been far more disappointing on the road. And now they have a stretch where they play four of the next six away and so, yes, the opponents all seem gettable. Jets, Panthers, Broncos, Raiders. But, but you've got to prove you can win in a way game if you want to be taken seriously. And I will say your away games after the stretch are at Detroit and at Washington on Christmas Day. And so you need to start taking this act on the road now. The jets have you and then they go to London. So I don't know if there's any sort of advantage to think about there, but you know, it's, it's a, it's a very frisky defense. They have Sauce Gardner, they have Quinn and Williams, who are both superstar players. They also have a number of very nice players. I don't know if Jermaine Johnson's going to be able to go and Will McDonald gets to the passer. And they've got guys I like. Offensively, it's just, it's Garrett Wilson and it's a bunch of dudes. Now they're going to try to run the football and they're successful at running the football and, and they've put a ton into their offensive line, including the last two drafts. They've put their first round pick on their left tackle from Penn State and 24 and their right tackle from Missouri in 25. And then they went and got Jason Taylor's kid, Mason Taylor, to be their tight end out of lsu, who I, who I like very much. So they're investing in their offense, but it's a anonymous OC that came along with Aaron Glenn from Detroit, and they're just, they're having a really. Staying out of their own way with turnovers and penalties, which is what we expect from a Jets offense, isn't it?
- [61:26]
George Dunham
Yeah. And last week we wanted the Cowboys to compete. They did just that. They. They tied a good packers team, a team that we all think is, is really good. And I think they will be. How about this week? Defense. We won't even say defense. Just put a D somewhere in that word. Just defense. Couple of stops. I feel like I'm back in my old Arena League football days, where will McClay cut his teeth with the Cowboys organization. That was back when the Cowboys owned the Desperados, the Arena League football team. And he always said if you could get one or two stops and a half, you were going to win.
- [62:08]
Bob Sturm
Right?
- [62:08]
George Dunham
I almost get that feeling now with this Cowboys team. Let's put it at two. Two stops a half and I think you win.
- [62:14]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I think there's something to that as well. And I, I honestly think that's that's an argument, by the way, to, to ramp up your risk. I know we want. The goal of defense is to play sound fundamentally, but I do think if your choices are a slow death or a fast death, maybe do the one that gives you a chance at making a play like the James Houston's strip sack, which, which absolutely turned Sunday night against Green Bay. And that was not necessarily a risky call, but it was trying to get your guys in a position to turn the game with a simple turnover. And maybe you have to sort of game theory your way through things and say, okay, as a coaching staff, what's our best path to victory? And our best path to victory? The answer can't be just let the defense, you know, give up, you know, yards all the time. Like they have to lean into whatever they're good at. I just don't know what they're good enough at, George, right now because they don't really have pass rushers. In the past, we say, in the past, we say, okay, well, set everything up for your pass rush. But that was when you had Micah Parsons and DeMarcus Lawrence, and you know, those guys are gone. Even, even Dorrance Armstrong's gone. So who can I count on to beat their man? I don't know. Maybe Clowny, maybe as a rock. Who. Maybe Fowler, but we just haven't seen it in the first month. They're horrible at getting to the passer, but. But that I, you know, maybe you just need to be willing as an offense to go for it more on fourth downs and to, and to throw down field more. And to say conservative thinking from our coaching staff is not helping us win games. And so maybe we need to open it up on both sides of the ball. And what do we have to lose? Let's put teams on their heels more. I don't know, it's. I'm grasping. You're the 32nd best defense. Try literally anything else right now, look.
- [64:25]
George Dunham
Like the 22nd best defense in the league. And I think you'd be okay in.
- [64:30]
Bob Sturm
Most of your games. George, if they could have a league average defense, they could. They could absolutely be a, a strong playoff team because their offense is good enough. That's what we've learned so far, is the offense is good enough even without Ceedee and Cooper Beebe and Tyler Booker. And that should give us a ton of optimism. They're using tactics. They've got better talent. Things are happening on offense that are very exciting to me. Starting with my quarterback is balling out, but defensively, man, I don't know what the plan is until you start using those micro draft picks, you know, so. So I guess let's get to April, but we got 13 more games to go before April, so we can't get there yet.
- [65:17]
George Dunham
That could be a lot of numbers here in the next few months. All right. Hot fried Georgie. Player of the week from the Green Bay game. We got to go with Dak, don't we?
- [65:26]
Bob Sturm
Okay. I love it.
- [65:28]
George Dunham
31 out of 43, 19, three touchdowns, no interceptions, and best throw the night for me was, and I still don't know the complete story of it. Do you really think that catch by Tolbert along the boundary that ended up putting them in field goal range instead of touchdown range, do you think he was throwing that ball away? Was that the, is this the Joe Montana catch discussion or was he putting it up there where he'd have a chance at it?
- [65:58]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I think, I think if you go back and look at that play, I think the defensive back is staying on top of Tolbert. And so it calls for a back shoulder throw to where, you know, you sort of wall off the defender. Now, of course, it's not a back shoulder throw because he's running for his life, so off balance, but that's as.
- [66:17]
George Dunham
Close as he could get.
- [66:18]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, but he is throwing it short, hoping Tobert can come back to the ball. And what happens after that is Tolbert just making a great play to stay in boun. But I do think the, the relative ball location is such that he's trying to give his guy a chance to make a play. And the guys in this league, even the guys who you don't think are good enough for a roster spot sometimes are still special, special players. And props to Tolbert. I think through a lot of this, Tolbert has, has made progress because what was it, the Giants game? It was a do or die 4th down catch that he had to match.
- [66:57]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [66:57]
Bob Sturm
And so let's, let's give Tolbert, you know, a little bit of credit. We've seen some growth this year from him, even though it's not as fast as we want it to be.
- [67:06]
George Dunham
I've been waving the Jalen Tolbert pennant for the last few years and I get shouted down a lot. So I'm glad to see him making some plays because the guy I saw. South Alabama, right? Yeah.
- [67:18]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. Yep, yep.
- [67:19]
George Dunham
Man. Beast. Yes, beast. But to your point, that's this league, it's, it's full of beast. There's a lot of players out there that are terrific in college that just, I think if he can play like he has these last couple of years, I think Jalen Tolbert can have a nice NFL career.
- [67:38]
Bob Sturm
That's absolutely right. And so, you know, Dak Dak, I think there were a lot of really big time throws, but the, the one I really enjoyed was also on that third and six when they have a blitz right in his face and he back foots a long perfect throw to Turpin on the sideline as well. So I think we're seeing big time throws. He still leads the league. His big time throw to turnover where the play differential still leads the league. He's playing fantastic football. And I think it's okay for the city of Dallas to admit that quarterback is not a problem right now. And may that continue.
- [68:21]
George Dunham
All right, Cowboys and Jets at noon central time on Sunday. And Bob and I will be back next week for another edition of the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition Football Friends. Thanks to our producer, Peter Welton. Peter Something else. Indy Bob.
- [68:41]
Bob Sturm
Oh, Peter's the best.
- [68:42]
George Dunham
Just a master of technology and producing and friendship and. Yeah, let's do this again next week. What do you say?
- [68:50]
Bob Sturm
Can't wait.
- [68:56]
George Dunham
They got Willa. They got my daughter. I need to find her. Willa.
- [69:00]
Bob Sturm
From acclaimed director Paul Thomas Anderson.
- [69:02]
George Dunham
You can save that girl.
- [69:05]
Bob Sturm
Today experience what is being called the best movie of the year. This isn't the end of the line. Not for you. Leonardo DiCaprio, Shantan. Ben del Toro, Tiana Taylor Chase. Infinity.
- [69:16]
George Dunham
Let's go.
- [69:18]
Bob Sturm
One battle after another. Now playing only in theaters. Experience at an IMAX. Rated R. Under 1700 minute without parrot.
- [69:24]
George Dunham
You can hide.