Cowboys Weekly: Football Friends at the Super Bowl

Summary

---

The Musers The Podcast — Cowboys Weekly: Football Friends at the Super Bowl

Podcast: The Musers The Podcast
Hosts: George Dunham & Bob Sturm (as "Football Friends")
Episode: Cowboys Weekly: Football Friends at the Super Bowl
Date: February 5, 2026

---

Episode Overview

Broadcast from Super Bowl 60 in San Francisco, George Dunham and Bob Sturm reflect on the Dallas Cowboys’ 30-year Super Bowl drought, forecast the franchise’s future, and deliver vintage Musers banter filled with nostalgia, insight, and optimism (bordering on “homerism”). The episode pivots on George’s “exclusive” (and hopeful) Cowboys Super Bowl prediction, a heartfelt reflection on Cowboys heartbreaks, and a deep dive into the legacy of DeMarcus Lawrence as the Super Bowl features a former Cowboy in the Seahawks’ uniform. The conversation closes with thoughts on the matchup (Seahawks vs. Patriots), the redemption arc of Sam Darnold, and what makes the Super Bowl (and its endless surprises) the NFL’s ultimate event.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cowboys’ 30-Year Super Bowl Absence & The Power of Hope

Nostalgia & Setting:

• George and Bob reminisce on Super Bowl 30—the Cowboys’ last appearance and victory—and marvel at their own presence at another Super Bowl, even if Dallas isn't playing.
  • [01:22] George: “It’s been 30 years since the Cowboys have been here. Super Bowl 30 was the end of that incredible run… It’s been a long, long time.”

George’s Bold Prediction:

• George delivers an "exclusive" prediction: the Dallas Cowboys will return to the Super Bowl next year (Super Bowl 61, in Los Angeles).
  • [02:03] George: “It’s been 30 years… Next year, I think they’re back.”
  • [02:13] “Super Bowl 61 will involve the Dallas Cowboys.”

Odds, Probability & Statistical Musings:

• Bob delves into the improbability of a 30-year NFC title game drought and what that says (statistically) about the franchise’s management under Jerry Jones.
  • [07:46] Bob: “The probability of randomly going that long without even making a conference final is only 1.5%. ... Jerry is not anywhere close to even a replacement level general manager.”
• The hosts assert that optimism is warranted, as most teams statistically don’t endure such long droughts, and the NFL is designed for turnover and parity.

Historical Heartbreaks:

• Memorable playoff calamities are recalled—the 2007 divisional loss, “Cabo” controversy, Romo’s Seattle hold, the “Dez Catch,” and missed opportunities during the Dak/Zeke era.
  • [17:13] George: “And of course the Dez Catch, which was not in Green Bay… those are the three closest times.”
  • [19:50] Bob: “...almost two decades of never going to the playoffs in consecutive years, which… is pretty bad.”

---

2. Cowboys Fan Experience: Joys, Misery, and the Unmatched Wait

• The hosts reflect on how the Cowboys concurrently have top-10 regular-season win totals since the 1990s but no real playoff payoff, making them a “unique sporting experience.”
  • [20:22] Bob: “It’s a very unique sporting experience that… at its core, following a sports team is really a ratio of good days to bad.”
  • [21:32] “They’re not the Jets… but the longer we drag out this wilderness, we do realize there are fewer Jets below us.”

The National Dynamic if Dallas Returns:

• They muse on the spectacle that would ensue if the Cowboys finally return to the Super Bowl—the resurrection of dormant fans and media frenzy.
  • [23:59] Bob: “You will see an enormous rising from the grave of an entire legion of cowboy fans that will just march like zombies to the super bowl city.”
  • [22:53] George: “Super Bowl week is always crazy… but… the Dallas Cowboys… hits differently. Those thinking, ‘ah, crap, they got to the Super Bowl. Cowboy fans crawling out from under the rock.’”

---

3. DeMarcus Lawrence’s Legacy — Measuring a Cowboy’s True Impact

Departure & Context:

• The Cowboys lost DeMarcus Lawrence to the Seahawks; George and Bob analyze the circumstances and question whether the Cowboys should have held onto both Lawrence and Micah Parsons.
  • [28:12] George: “As he signs with Seattle, I thought, man, he’s really going to help them. But I can see why the Cowboys are going to… go the Michael Parsons route… But if we would have known… that they were going to lose DeMarcus Lawrence and Micah Parsons. Holy smokes.”

Legacy of Statistical Impact ("Splash Plays"):

• Bob shares his long-running, hand-tracked “splash play” metric to illustrate Lawrence’s underappreciated value—tackles for loss, sacks, pressures, etc.—documenting him as Dallas’s top difference-maker for much of the past decade.
  • [35:11] Bob: “Now I have 16 or 15 seasons of data of splash plays… and I am here to tell you that… DeMarcus Lawrence is the splash play champion.”
  • [36:19] “DeMarcus Lawrence has six splash play titles for the Cowboys defense and a second place finish over the course of nine seasons.”
  • [40:13] “He probably didn’t touch Jordan Love, because nobody did that day. But what I’m telling you is… he got covered with the stink of Cowboys underachievement…”

Player "Stink" & Underappreciated Careers:

• They discuss how outstanding Cowboys (like DeMarcus Ware, Tyron Smith, and Lawrence) often get unfairly scapegoated for playoff disappointments rather than appreciated for consistent excellence.
  • [43:50] Bob: “Even rank his quarterback in the top five. That’s right. And they’re both gone… There was no real wrong answer choosing Micah over DeMarcus or DeMarcus over Micah. The wrong answer is choosing neither of them.”

---

4. Super Bowl 60: Matchup, Redemption, and the Unknown

Preview: Seahawks vs. Patriots

• Both hosts favor the Seahawks, primarily due to NFC allegiance and DeMarcus Lawrence’s involvement, but caution against underestimating the Patriots’ postseason magic.
  • [51:10] George: “I think we both lean towards the Seahawks… I do think it is a really good matchup…”

Sam Darnold’s Redemption Arc:

• They highlight Sam Darnold’s improbable journey—from Jets bust to Super Bowl starter—digging into draft analysis, the role of failure, and the importance of resilience over raw draft talent.
  • [56:37] George (on Darnold) “If Sam Darnold wins the Super Bowl, what a redemption story… as a guy who also said… after he left Carolina… for the rest of his career he would be a backup quarterback.”
  • [60:35] George: “Because they think Zach Wilson’s a better choice. And in social media… what does it do to your brain to know that everyone is saying how much you suck…”
  • [63:54] Bob: “In our sports commentary… we would rather have a blank slate… than a guy who’s educated at the school of hard knocks by football geniuses… Right by the time they become educated, we want to throw them in the trash…”

Reflection on Talent, Drafting, and Unknowable Futures:

• Bob and George discuss how the unpredictable “unknowns” (culture, adversity, desire) truly shape NFL careers, not just arm strength or scouting reports.
  • [67:32] Bob: “There’s no accounting for will money, will fame, will failure, will social media break these guys or will it make them stronger? …the unknown is probably the majority of the information that actually matters.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Prediction and Drought:

  • [02:03] George: “Next year, I think they’re back. …Super Bowl 61 will involve the Dallas Cowboys.”
  • [07:46] Bob: “So there’s a 98.5% chance that over 30 years, the Cowboys would have at least been to an NFC championship game… The fact that they have defeated a 98.5% chance…”

• On Generational Fandom:

  • [23:59] Bob: “You will see an enormous rising from the grave of an entire legion of cowboy fans that will just march like zombies to the super bowl city.”

• On DeMarcus Lawrence:

  • [35:11] Bob: “DeMarcus Lawrence is the splash play champion…”
  • [40:08] Bob: “He probably didn’t touch Jordan Love, because nobody did that day. But… he got covered with the stink of Cowboys underachievement…”
  • [40:41] George: “Very underappreciated in his time here…”

• On the Draft and Redemption:

  • [62:48] Bob: “But I do want to say that this is what humbles you about trying to evaluate these guys, is that no matter how strongly I feel about this tape I just watched, there is this ocean of unknown territory…”
  • [63:54] Bob (on Darnold): “Right by the time they become educated, we want to throw them in the trash and we want to start over with somebody we don’t know has even a thousand hours in.”

• On NFL Unpredictability:

  • [12:25] Bob: “The league teaches us year after year after year that they want a carousel of power.”
  • [22:36] George: “Could you imagine if my vision comes true next year and the Cowboys go to the Super Bowl? The fact that it’s been that long. The fact that they are the Cowboys. Super Bowl week is always crazy…”

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Super Bowl Site, 30-Year Cowboy Lamentation: [00:45] – [03:00]
• George’s Cowboys Super Bowl Prediction: [02:03] – [04:00]
• Statistical Improbability of the Cowboys’ Drought: [07:46] – [11:44]
• Cowboys Playoff Heartbreaks: [16:17] – [18:10]
• Discussion of Cowboys “Fan Misery” & League Parity: [19:50] – [23:59]
• DeMarcus Lawrence Deep Dive—Legacy, Splash Plays, Breakup: [28:12] – [44:13]
• Keeping Lawrence & Parsons—Alternate Season Reflection: [46:54] – [49:20]
• Super Bowl 60 Preview—Seahawks/Patriots, Darnold’s Redemption: [51:10] – [65:54]
• On the Draft, Player Evaluation, and the Unknown: [65:55] – [69:17]
• Closing Reflections: [69:17] – [69:57]

---

Tone, Style, and Chemistry

• The Musers retain their signature mix of nostalgia, optimism, candid critique, inside jokes, and rolling, heartfelt football talk.
• The episode oscillates between “homer” hopefulness and sobering analysis, with plenty of self-deprecating Cowboy-fan humor.
• Banter remains warm, relatable, and accessible—intelligent without being self-serious—making deep statistical and historical critiques both easy to grasp and emotionally resonant.

---

Summary Takeaway

For devotees and newcomers alike:
This episode serves as a perfect encapsulation of the Musers’ appeal: insightful, funny, slightly sentimental, and, ultimately, rooted in the enduring hope of Cowboys Nation. You’ll leave understanding both the pain and optimism inherent in being a Cowboys fan, with newfound respect for overlooked team heroes like DeMarcus Lawrence—and maybe, just maybe, catching a little bit of that Super Bowl vision for 2026.

---

Transcript

[A]

This Valentine's Day, celebrate the one you love the most with Hallmark cards At Walgreens, Valentine's Day is the best time to send your favorite person a reminder of just how much they mean to you. A Hallmark card is a super simple and beautiful way to say how grateful you are for the love you two share. Don't forget Valentine's day is Saturday, February 14th. Visit Walgreens today to find a Hallmark card that shows just how much you love them. Because love lives here. It's the musers, the podcast Cowboys Edition Football friends together at Super Bowl 60. From San Francisco, California, it's George and Bob, your football friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're here at Radio row Super Bowl 60. And as we've talked about on our radio station from Dallas all week, Bob, it's still real to us. We're at the Super Bowl.

[B]

We sure are.

[A]

Would little Bob have ever thought that he would go to a Super bowl and witness all of the hype and all the nonsense that happens leading up to the big game?

[B]

That's not something I would ever be allowed to do. That sounds crazy. It sounds difficult to even imagine. So here we are. Our dreams have come true. It's Super Bowl 60 and that just.

[A]

Means it's been 30 years since the Cowboys have been here. Super Bowl 30 was the end of that incredible run in the 90s and the incredible run for the Cowboys in the first 30 years of this big game where they won five, they played in eight. It's been a long, long time. And I have an exclusive prediction for you here, Bob.

[B]

Oh, an exclusive prediction?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. How's that different from just a Norma prediction?

[A]

Well, because it's.

[B]

You can only hear it here.

[A]

I am so afraid to say this. I've not said it on our radio show. I saved it for the musers. The podcast Cowboys Edition.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

It's been 30 years since the Cowboys have gone. Next year, I think they're back.

[B]

Next year they're going to the Super Bowl.

[A]

I'm just going to keep it between me, you, Peter and our listeners here to the Cowboys podcast. Super Bowl 61 will involve the Dallas Cowboys.

[B]

I just want like to see Hawks. So you put like a punctuation at the end there. There's not a dash. And then you're going to add on some, some, some add ons.

[A]

I don't know who they're playing. I'm just. No, no, no.

[B]

I'm just asking, is this if, if no feeling or do you have a 10 point plan or how are we going to get there.

[A]

I just have a. I've got this weird feeling, okay. Part of it is just, okay, it's 31 years. It's about time.

[B]

Yeah, the about time thing does kick in here pretty quick.

[A]

It's going to be Brian Schottenheimer second year, just like Mike McDonald in his second year. Yes, new England was not a good football team last year. They only had four wins. They had a promising quarterback.

[B]

They have a chance to match last year's win total with just playoff wins with a win on Sunday.

[A]

Here they are 3 and O in the postseason and they made a big jump on the defensive side of the ball. The Cowboys will invest, we think at least two first round picks or a first round pick and whatever they get for the other first round pick in defense. And who knows, maybe they'll hit on a couple of free agents like the Patriots did. So I'm taking a little bit of the Seahawks and a little bit of Patriots. The fact that it's been a long, long time and I, Mike vraybrol and Mike McDonald have established culture. I'm telling you, next year the Cowboys will be here. Actually, they'll be in Los Angeles. They will getting ready to take on something. What do you think about that?

[B]

I honestly, I've heard it here first. I will never forget who put my expectation level through the roof for what we are about to enjoy and we'll.

[A]

Play it next year and we'll either laugh or we'll go. Son of a gun. How did you know that?

[B]

This is an incredible prediction and it is. I wasn't sure at first if we could tell the kind of broadsided you, didn't it? But this is a Football Friends exclusive.

[A]

Yes. And maybe it's because I've been thinking about this other element to that prediction and I think I've told you about this promise that I've made. I took my two oldest sons, I have three sons, and I took my two oldest sons who somehow became Carolina Panther fans. And when the Panthers went and played the patriots back in 2004 in Houston, as we went into the postseason, they said, hey, the Super Bowls in Houston this year, dad.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the Panthers are in the playoffs. If they make the playoffs, can we go? And I went, yeah. What are the odds? Panthers in the Super Bowl. Come on, Jake Delome at quarterback. Yeah, I think I'm okay on that one. So I seem like a superhero dad and said, well, sure, I'll take you. Doggone if they don't go. So then I had to scramble and come up with four tickets. Our youngest son, who was 3 at the time, didn't get to go, but we went and I was able to put together four tickets to go to the game. We had a great time. It was the Janet Jackson, Justin Timberlake nipple gate thing.

[B]

And boys love that.

[A]

We were on the other side of the field. We didn't know that it revealed what it revealed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, I told my son, did.

[B]

You have a sad car ride home with Jake de Lome and the Panthers.

[A]

And they were convinced that the Patriots got all the calls? I think. I can't remember who the Carolina kicker was. Well, maybe don't kick it out of bounds after you take a look.

[B]

John Casey, maybe?

[A]

I think it was.

[B]

Or Carney, I think K a S a Y, maybe.

[A]

Okay. I think you may be right about that. So, yeah, very sad ride home. And then I told my youngest son, who later learned as he became sports conscious. Wait, my older brothers got to go to the super bowl and I didn't get to go? And I said, yeah, you were little. Tickets were hard to come by. I'll tell you what, since his middle name is Landry and he's.

[B]

He's.

[A]

He still believes kind of that this will happen someday. Yeah. And I said, well, if the Cowboys ever go back. And when they go back, I don't think I worded it as if I said, when they go back.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I will take you. So next year, I could be trying to find tickets for myself and my son to go see the Cowboys playing the super bowl again. Do you think I'll be doing that, if not next year, in my lifetime?

[B]

Yes, in your lifetime.

[A]

AI says no. AI says the Cowboys aren't going to. AI says that you haven't seen the big. The big prediction. No, I'm not Super Bowl 90. I don't think they're.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't Berlin go a few times before.

[A]

Before the London or somebody does?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Well, look, someday I'll pay that bet off.

[B]

Look, AI may say the other way. I'm gonna say, george, as it says on my Twitter bio or my X bio. Who can say, yeah, someday we'll go all the way. And we will.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I believe in that. I believe that the Cowboys will be back, and I believe you'll live to see it. And I believe when they do go, we're both gonna go. You know what? We're both gonna be in that stadium. Now, you take family moment. I'm not gonna try to be your. Your long lost.

[A]

I think Uncle Bob ought to go with.

[B]

Well, Uncle Bob would be delighted to go, but, but doggone it, they. They are going back. And that's, you know, that keeps the energy high, is that this league is built for parody. And I honestly, I have a friend named Nick who may be listening right now. And Nick works in statistics and probabilities, and he's also, I think, is a Cowboy fan at this point. I think I definitely know he started as a Cowboy fan, but it worked to a point where now they drive him crazy like they drive everybody crazy. But since he works in statistics, he loves the probability of the Cowboys missing the super bowl for this long, actually being an amazing, an amazing statistical accomplishment because it seems impossible. A wise man once said, here is what he sent me recently. He says, the Jerry math of incompetence. This is season 30 done and dusted. So now we move to season 31. Since their last Super Bowl. The probability of randomly going that long without even making a conference final, an NFC championship game is only 1.5%. If it were pure random, a team should have a coin flip 5050 chance of making the conference finals once every 5.2 years. If you want to use the 5050 mark of a 5.2 years of random random baseline, Jerry is not anywhere close to even a replacement level general manager. Utilizing dumb luck as a reference point for replacement level competence. So there's a 98.5% chance that over 30 years, the Cowboys would have at least been to an NFC championship game. The fact that they have defeated a 98.5% chance, which, by the way, is the exact inverse of the Mavs winning the lottery last year to get Cooper flag. So that just to show you the probabilities work, if you would have said, you know, the, the morning after Super Bowl 30 in Tempe 2717, Larry Brown, that, that the Cowboys would have been able to avoid the next 30 NFC championship games in a row. It would have been a 1.5% chance. So, so, like the odds, Vegas would have taken ten dollars and offered to pay you ten grand if, if it hit and, and this has hit. So, so for me to then say that when we're all 90, you know, 30, 35, 40 years from now, that this will continue. Impossible. Can't happen, George. Okay, so I don't know about next year in Los Angeles or if I.

[A]

Could make it the 90.

[B]

Right? That's. That's dice. We're all gonna have to take our vitamins. Yeah. And, and get our steps in. But, but, but yes, I, I, I think optimism, optimism is appropriate because you've already put in the 30 bad years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now we've, we've, we've sown and now we just wait to reap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What we've sown. So, so the 30 years in the waiting room getting close. How long could they leave us in the waiting room? George, it can't be much longer.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So it's been 30. So now if you can do the mental reset of okay, now we did our time and now it's time to open our Christmas presents. And now we just wait because Santa Jerry is about to come down the chimney and Christmas morning has to be right around the corner.

[A]

Well, that's why this off season, if that's going to happen, obviously is so huge. They have to hit in the draft. They get to spend some capital. How do you get George Pickens and Brandon Aubrey done?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Javante Williams?

[B]

There's, there's some things, we got some things to get done, things to work through.

[A]

And then maybe some of what these teams are accomplishing and have accomplished. Seattle in New England, maybe it'll ignite something with Jerry of hey, yeah, what if we did spend a little more capital and what if we truly did go all in? And yeah, the draft thing is kind of, there's luck involved in that and 100%.

[B]

But, but yeah, there's the random chance thing is, is literally looking us in the face. Even if you go back to the NFC championship games and you just say okay, or the, the two championship games and you say Patriots, Broncos, literally zero people predicted that the start of the season, Seahawks, Rams, probably almost nobody. And so you have this final four that shows us the NFL is built for randomness, for basically to make dynasties impossible and to make long runs very, very difficult. Because no sooner do you build a team, then you have to start paying them and then they get ripped apart.

[A]

You can't keep the band together.

[B]

So the league teaches us year after year after year that they want a carousel of power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's why when you look at that incredible graphic that shows us there are 16 NFC teams and every single one of them have been in the NFC championship game since 2010. Except one. Only one of the 16 NFC teams has avoided the NFC title game since before 2010. And they also tacked another 15 years on it, going all the way back to the 1995 season. So again, you have to comprehend what we are talking about with the cowboys 30 year wilderness here. Is that not only have they avoided Super Bowls, but they've avoided a final four and at nearly a statistical improbability, especially with two decade long franchise quarterbacks at the helm. Like you would think, you would think they'd be one of those franchises with the funny jersey that the guy wears with as 40 different quarterback names on it for 30 years. Cowboys actually don't. They've had great stability there. They've hired great coaches. They've had some really, really, you know, they have a Hall of Fame coach here and a Super bowl winning coach there. So they have lowered the bar of performance at a remarkable level. So, so again, we're all just telling you we've. We've already survived the drought, the famine, the stock market crash. Like we're still alive. Guys, you're listening to this. So you know, there. We've all survived. So now if George is telling us the seeds of optimism for 2026 are already in the ground and being watered, then now let's just hop on board and enjoy this.

[A]

I just got a feeling what an.

[B]

Unbelievable homer Cowboy podcast this has become.

[A]

They're going to the super bowl next.

[B]

All they have to do is send us to the super bowl city and we are these cheerleaders who are just telling you this is going to be the year for the Cowboys.

[A]

I've just had a vision, Bob. That's all I can tell you. I don't really have a lot of fact, but that's what visions are, you know.

[B]

Well, I, I don't want the aggregators to say we both think it's going to happen in 2020.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't want.

[B]

I just want to say. I just want to say it's around the corner soon.

[A]

Yes. Yes, that's right. Okay, that's. That's fine too.

[B]

I don't think our great grandkids are going to be handling this podcast okay. And still saying it's now been 130 years in the wilderness.

[A]

Surely we're due even that makes me feel better.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I look back at the.

[B]

It's still going to be us.

[A]

I look back at the last 30 years and I think of times because the Cowboys are not only just turning into a team like we always pick on the Browns.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, look at the Dolphins. They've had a long run without doing anything significant in the preseason.

[B]

We're running out of teams to pick on.

[A]

Let's pick on those Raiders too. They hadn't done much in a while.

[B]

Bears anymore. Can't use the commanders or The Lions.

[A]

Okay, yeah, but you know, whatever, you know. And yeah, the Lions were a punchline for four years, but I look at these years since Super Bowl 30 and I think of 2007 and you and I were at Texas Stadium for that divisional game against the Giants and we felt kind of uneasy going into it because the Giants had gone on the road to Tampa and just knocked the Buccaneers all over the field and they played that game. Meantime, some of the prominent Cowboys were in Cabo that weekend just having the time of their life. And the Giants go in, beat the Cowboys, go on to beat the Patriots in the super bowl.

[B]

And beat the packers in Lambeau.

[A]

Beat the packers in Lambeau.

[B]

That easily ended the Brett Favreau.

[A]

That's right. And that could have been Dallas. And the Patrick Creighton drop gets brought up. And that was certainly a pivotal play in that game. But I remember rum, the Cowboys had the ball last and Romo was throwing to the end zone, got knocked away.

[B]

Terry Glenn, maybe that was close.

[A]

The drop snap of the year before in Seattle by Romo as he was a holder. And just how Cena play like that involved involve number one, a starting quarterback, which was weird that they never switched that out.

[B]

And then the Pete Hunter game and.

[A]

In a, in a playoff game of significance like that, that would have put them in an NFC title game. And of course the Des Catch, which was not in Green Bay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Those are the three closest times. They also had home field advantage, Dak and Zeke's rookie year. And they didn't get there. So maybe that's why in, in Jerry's mind, he's like, I know how to do this, I've been so close. But have they really, have they really been close when you don't even make it to the title game?

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's a two sided conversation. So the easy answer is no, they haven't been close. But that's not true. They've been a one seed multiple times. So home field throughout the playoffs, which they have promptly blown very quickly. In fact, remarkably quickly in a couple cases. One, one or two. You just detailed 2016, you know, the most ridiculous throw of Aaron Rodgers career. Mason Crosby bangs back to back like 53 yarders. And if he misses either of them, the Cowboys move on and host an NFC championship game against Atlanta. I want to say, yeah, that was the 28, 3 Patriots Super bowl in Houston. And so if you add up regular season wins, or if you add up double digit win seasons, or if you add up playoff berths or once, you know, playoff births get a little dicier. Because, remember, it took Mike McCarthy to break a streak of almost two decades of never going to the playoffs in consecutive years, which, again, going back to. You had 10 years of Tony Romo and 10 years of Dak Prescott, and you kept maxing out at one consecutive year in the playoffs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you couldn't back up a wild card with a wild card. Like. Like, that's pretty bad if you think about it. And so the lessons are everywhere for organizational chaos and malpractice and all these things we say. And I don't think you can back off from it, but I do think if you add up regular season wins over the course of 20 or 30 years, the Cowboys actually net out at top 10. So it's a very unique sporting experience that I don't think that's another reason.

[A]

Why they think they're doing this the right way. Hey, look at our record since, whatever the year is, 2010, and we're doing okay.

[B]

Well, I mean, honestly, it's not crazy to have that thought, because at its core, following a sports team is really a ratio of good days to bad. And in the NFL, it's good Sundays to bad. And we all remember as kids, Monday would be the start of a crappy week if our team lost. And Sunday was just such a celebration that our team is good and we beat our enemy today. And that's really the whole core of following this sport, is that Sunday night feels better when you win. And so over the course of an entire lifetime of experiencing this goofy football team, or really any football team, you just want to know you've had way more happy Sunday nights than sad ones. And. Or now, I guess the feeling you have no feelings at all. You just stare at the screen in a catatonic trance of, why do I do this to myself? But the Cowboys have given a lot of happy Sundays, you know, per capita. You know, pound for pound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that's why to claim it's the most miserable experience is not true. It's. They're not the jets, you know, they're just not. But again, the longer we drag out this wilderness, now, three decades, we. We do realize there are fewer jets below us who we can say, at least we're not so and so.

[A]

Right? And that's.

[B]

And that's why we get back to that very alarming statistical truth, that every NFC team has been in an NFC championship game since 2010, but the Dallas Cowboys, who haven't been in it since 1996. Like. Like. Like, that's just. Yeah, that. I guess the 95 season, that boggles the mind and it shouldn't be possible. And it is. And despite it being not only possible, but true, the Cowboys dig in and see nothing but good things and really don't get mad as hell. And we're not going to take it anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They actually just sort of double down and say, did you like those three Super Bowls? So everything. All our methods are correct.

[A]

And it seems like in the college game, we always say, you know, college football is better when Nebraska's good, or throw out the team, Oklahoma or Michigan, or could you imagine if my vision comes true next year and the Cowboys go to the Super Bowl?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The fact that it's been that long. The fact that they are the Cowboys super bowl week is always crazy, and it's been so long. But I still remember the hype leading up to a Super bowl that the Dallas Cowboys are playing in. It hits differently. It's different throughout the nation, throughout the world. Those thinking, ah, crap, they got to the Super Bowl. Cowboy fans crawling out from under the rock. Yeah, we're back.

[B]

I was going to say, can you.

[A]

Imagine what that will be like when they do eventually get back?

[B]

Yeah, it will be incredible. And we. We actually experience this a fair amount when, like, Notre Dame is good again or when the Celtics are good again. And just. You're like, man, how do people all come out of the woodwork? Like, like, where.

[A]

Where have you been?

[B]

Where have you been hiding? And we never said that growing up about Cowboys fans because they were literally everywhere. You go throw a rock, and here's a Cowboys fan. But we have now given enough time for a dormancy, if you will, and they will spring back to life in unison, and it will be absurd, wearing.

[A]

Their Dexter Coakley jersey. Yes, we are back.

[B]

You will see an enormous rising from the grave of an entire legion of cowboy fans that will just march like zombies to the super bowl city. And the prices will be insane, George, for you to try to get in, but, you know, all your years of toiling in the coal mines of cowboy football will be rewarded with all the connections you've built. So you'll be fine. But the parade, someday we'll go all the way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know when.

[A]

If nothing else, I appreciate you being.

[B]

Specific about it, but I just had.

[A]

That vision this week, being here in the. And I've never had that feeling before.

[B]

Well, and as somebody who has an NFL logo tattooed on my shoulder of a different team, I want to say I want it really, really badly for all of you. I want. I want to see it. You know, in fact, I'll experience it. And I won't deserve it because I don't have pictures of young Bob in cowboy pajamas, but. So I'll be an interloper. But I've done my time.

[A]

Oh, you've done your time.

[B]

I served the entire Chan Gailey tenure. I'll have people know. So I. I have.

[A]

He got to the playoffs and back to back years.

[B]

He absolutely did. He absolutely did. I was there when Dave Campbell's introductory press conference happened in Valley Ranch. I was there. Doggone. So. So those will be the stories I will use to say. I get. I get to smile here now, too.

[A]

You put in your time.

[B]

You know, I knew David LaFleur. I knew Eric Bjornsson. You, sir, did not.

[A]

You weren't even alive. Oh, that's awesome.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Well, there is a participant in Super Bowl 60 who just last year was a Dallas Cowboy. Yes, the fascinating story of DeMarcus Lawrence. And what if. Let's go there next. This Valentine's Day Celebrate the one you love the most with Hallmark Cards at Walgreens, Valentine's Day is the best time to send your favorite person a reminder of just how much they mean to you. A Hallmark card is a super simple and beautiful way to say how grateful you are for the love you two share. Don't forget Valentine's day is Saturday, February 14th. Visit Walgreens today to find a Hallmark card that shows just how much you love them. Because love lives here. Football's biggest game is right around the corner and you can get in on the action with underdog. New customers score $75 in fantasy bonus entries. When you make your first $5 fantasy entry, just download the app and make a pick player either higher or lower. I'm going higher on Drake Mays 225.5 passing yards against the Seahawks. Download the app today. Use the promo code Ticket25 to score $75 in fantasy bonus entries. When you play your first $5 on fantasy, that's promo code Ticket25. Underdog Make Picks win money must be 18 or older, 19 or older in Alabama and Nebraska, 19 or older in Colorado. For some games 21 or older in Arizona, Massachusetts and Virginia and present in the state where Underdog Fantasy operates. Terms apply. See assets.underdogfantasy.com web play and getterms dfs HTML for details. Offer not valid in Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio or Pennsylvania. Concerned with your play, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit www.ncpgambling.org. in New York, call the 24.7HOPE line at 1-87-7,8, HOPE NY or text HOPE NY or 67369. Okay, we're here at the Super Bowl. Super Bowl 60 from San Francisco, California, the Cowboys not even close to the super bowl. It's been 30 years, as we just covered, but DeMarcus Lawrence is and on his way out the door. The Cowboy defensive end said, well, I'm going to sign with Seattle because they got a much better chance of going to the super bowl than the Cowboys do, or something along those lines. And Micah Parsons took exception to that because at the time he was a Cowboy and they boy, we could do 20 minutes on that. The friction between Parsons and DeMarcus Lawrence and almost a alpha and alpha trying.

[B]

To how it prints differently these days.

[A]

And take control of the Cowboys locker room. But let's go back a year and I remember and I love DeMarcus Lawrence. I liked him as a guy and I loved the way he played. He played his tail off.

[B]

Yes, he did.

[A]

But he was starting to get up there in years. He had maybe his worst season as far as missing games and injuries. And I, as he signs with Seattle, I thought, man, he's really going to help them. But I can see why the Cowboys are going to, okay, you're going to go the Michael Parsons route, you're going to sign him and this is going to be the defense moving forward. But it's you and I have been talking this week. If we would have known back last off season that they were going to lose DeMarcus Lawrence and Micah Parsons. Holy smokes. It gets back to the current headline of yeah, Matt Eberflutz never had a chance, right. Going into this season. What were you thinking when D. Law left town last year?

[B]

Well, I was thinking it's kind of coupled with Zach Martin as this is how sports happens and the careers in the blink of an eye. And isn't that kind of not how we look at it as fans or media? Because in the words of McConaughey, we keep getting older, but they stay the same age, you know, which is which is kind of a way to look at athletes and just how it works. But for them, it's their entire story. It's their narrative, it's their life. And so I think that's important for us to occasionally try to envision the journey of a football player, not a football team, because all of us look at this through the lens of our football team. And like we said, every year there's a draft and here come a bunch of bright eyed, fresh bodied 21 year olds. And they all need jobs, though. So, George, whose jobs do they get? Well, they get the jobs of guys who are at the end of their careers. Now, sometimes those are three years into their life, or sometimes it's 10 years into their football life. But. But careers. All these draft picks are taking people's jobs. Okay, so there's a finite number of NFL jobs. 250 draft picks come in. Well, 250 leave. And they might leave your team and go to someone else, but it's musical chairs. And that's why players don't really care about who their team drafts, because they're all kind of aware that that guy might be trying to take my seat at the table. So that's an important way to look at it, I think, is if you can detach yourself from, I'm a Cowboy fan and just say, well, what would this be like to be DeMarcus Lawrence? I think he would view it slightly different now. It's impractical because, you know, that's. You don't know him. And you certainly look at the contracts he's received and said, well, I would love that life. You know, give. I would love to be so insulted as only getting $30 million for three years of work, you know, all sorts of things. So I realize I'm taking the scenic route here, but I think it's important because Zach Martin was done playing football. DeMarcus Lawrence was not. He's like, I'm still good. I can still play. I want to go play for somebody who really wants me. Because part of this Cowboys culture is we love you, but there comes a point in your career where you're one of the reasons why we stink, no matter who you are, right? This happened to DEZ Bryant. This happened to Jason Whitten. This happened to Tony Romo. This happened to demarcus Ware. Demarcus Ware.

[A]

In fact, George won a Super Bowl.

[B]

May I, may I take you back 10 years to San Francisco, California, son of a guy. Ten years ago this week, a cowboy named DeMarcus was trying to win a Super bowl for the first time in his career on a different team. And Dallas was like, he was beat. He was cooked. It was over. I'm sorry, we're not paying this guy anymore. So DeMarcus Ware went to Denver. Now, DeMarcus Ware and DeMarcus Lawrence are not the same thing. DeMarcus Ware is in Canton, Ohio. Demarcus Lawrence will never get to Canton, Ohio. They both went to many, many pro bowls, but DeMarcus Ware, twice as many. They both were on all pro teams, but DeMarcus Ware, like five times as many as DeMarcus Lawrence. So they're not the same thing. Demarcus Ware was great at the one thing we can see and measure and look at statistically, which is sacks.

[A]

He's a sack machine.

[B]

He was a sack machine. One of the best to ever do it. Demarcus Lawrence, he was ight. I heard him this week. Moose, on our show. Darrell Johnston compared him to Greg Ellis, and I think that's a very good comp. He was a excellent pro. An excellent pro, an excellent leader.

[A]

I'll throw out another one. Tony Tolbert.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

On the other side, Haley, really good against the run. Would give you an, you know, an occasional sack, but terrific player.

[B]

Played his tail off. Did not have the. The marquee sack leader in the NFL chasing the single season sack records or career sack records.

[A]

So.

[B]

So not the profile guy. So I want to make this about me for two seconds.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Mark that. So about 15 years ago, I started measuring splash plays because I think splash plays are super important in how we look at defensive players. And the question is always, well, what are you talking about? What qualifies as a splash play? Right. So before we go too far into it, a splash play is a sack or it is a tackle for loss, or it is a pressure that forces a play to end. A quarterback throws it out of bounds. Well, if you're the guy forcing him to throw it out of bounds, you get a splash. A run stuff is a running play for no game. That's a splash. A pass stuff. You wide receiver screen and you tackle them for no game. That's a splash. An interception, a force fumble, a recovered fumble, if you draw a holding penalty, that's a drive killer. That's a splash right there. Pass defended, pass batted down at the line, a big hit that knocks the ball loose. A third down stop is a splash play. So I calculate these by hand because some of them are subjective, most of them are objective, but some are actually. Was that a pressure that caused. You know, so I keep them by hand. I tell you all this to say I keep them by hand. Every down since 2011 for the Dallas Cowboys. Dang. Okay, so now I have.

[A]

See what I mean about putting in time?

[B]

So now. Now I have 16 or 15 seasons of data of splash plays for every play the Cowboys have had and I am here to tell you that if you add them all up and if you simply look at the best on the team year after year after year. DeMarcus Lawrence is the splash play champion in. Okay, he came into League in 2014. Yeah, I started doing this in 2011. DeMarcus Ware led in 2011, then Anthony Spencer in 2012. Then a guy most people won't remember named George Selvie in 2013, which by the way, 2013 was the Monte Kiffin year. One of the worst defenses ever, their best player was a guy named George Selby. God bless him. But most.

[A]

At least he splashed.

[B]

At least he splashed 28 times. George Rolando McLean Ragonk in 2014 was DeMarcus Lawrence's rookie season. Now, DeMarcus Lawrence in his rookie season was hurt most of the year because he broke his foot in training camp. His rookie season. He actually had a very memorable sequence at the end of the Lions playoff game. But that's maybe a side road for later or never. His first full season was 2015. George. He led the Cowboys and splash plays in 2015. 2016, David Irving did. But in 2017-2018-2019-2020, DeMarcus Lawrence led the Cowboys in splash plays five times in his first six seasons. Then Micah Parsons came along in 2021, led the team in splash plays. But then in 2022, DeMarcus Lawrence did again. And in 2023, Micah was first. DeMarcus Lawrence was second. So DeMarcus Lawrence has six splash play titles for the Cowboys defense and a second place finish over the course of nine seasons. The other two, he was injured and the only other multi season champion. Remember, he has won six of the 15 seasons I've kept. The only other person to win more than one is Micah Parsons with three. Wow. So DeMarcus Lawrence here, year after year after year after year was the most difference making defensive player on this team. Now you might say that was the problem when he was your best defensive player. You're not good enough to win a Super Bowl. And you're probably right, I'm willing to concede that. But don't you dare suggest that DeMarcus Lawrence had anything to do with this team not winning. In fact, if you also want to say, well, what did he do in the playoff games? Okay, I'll tell you what he did. He sacked Matthew Stafford. He sacked Aaron Rodgers. He sacked, I believe Jimmy Garoppolo in one of those 49ers playoff games. He got big splash plays in those games as well. Now again, a lot of them were losses because the Cowboys lost a lot of playoff games. But DeMarcus Lawrence, he probably didn't touch.

[A]

Jordan Love, because nobody did that.

[B]

Nobody did that day. But what I'm telling you is he got covered with the stink of Cowboys underachievement like so many Cowboys do. Like demarcus Ware did at the end. Pro Football hall of Famer, a generational talent. And by the end, we're all like.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen enough.

[B]

We got Sean Lee, we got Rolando McClain.

[A]

Yeah, we're good.

[B]

Jason Hatcher. We're good. We're good. Get Henry Melton. We don't need demarcus Ware. You know, and so I just think there's been a generation or two of Cowboys players who are really, really good players. And what happens in the sports talk, hot take, shouty show world we live in is we end up blaming a team's best players for them not achieving our dreams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, we end up saying, you know, maybe it's Dirk's fault that the Mavericks never get to the Finals. Maybe it's. Maybe it's the best player's fault. And when in reality, if you look at it through a player's perspective, it's like, I wish there were guys in this room that were as obsessed with digging out of this mess as I am, because I see them over there enjoying their money or enjoying the girls or the lifestyle or their podcast, and it makes me crazy. And I kind of want to try another locker room and another culture where maybe they don't all think this way. And so when DeMarcus Lawrence broke up with the Cowboys, you could say it was the Cowboys choice. You could say it was DeMarcus Choice. He took a pay cut to stay here for a couple years. He also played with his arm in a sling or in a shoulder embrace for quite a few years. I mean, DeMarcus Lawrence is a dude, and he deserves your respect.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And, and, and he. You could argue he at some point deserves a ring of honor consideration or, you know, big time. Like, that's a decade of excellent, excellent Pro bowl play every year. And I just. I just think he's going to get lost. Like, his memory as a cowboy is going to get lost to time like so many do who aren't part of championship teams. But I also will tell you he's quality enough that he could have helped the doomsday defense. He could have helped. You know, he was just. He was just drafted by the wrong team at the wrong time.

[A]

I think he was Very underappreciated in his time here because one of the.

[B]

Best run stopping edges there's. There has been.

[A]

Yes, and. And you talk about splash plays. I think in our minds, and I'm talking about observers, whether it's media or fans, they look at it and that's okay. Let's look at the sack totals. He's an edge, but there's so much more that goes into it.

[B]

Six and a half sacks and we're paying you $12 million.

[A]

Yeah, because how many drives did he wreck with a deflected pass, drawing a holding call, making that play at the line of scrimmage on a running play, sniffing something out, and the leadership part of it, too. He's been a great culture ad to.

[B]

Seattle run stuff for days.

[A]

There's something to him wearing number zero that makes him look even more badass. I mean, he's really helped them. Is he their best defensive player? No, but he's been part of a really good defensive unit.

[B]

That's right. Part of bad dudes. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, when the Giants won, did they have the best defensive player in the league? Well, yeah, when they had Lawrence Taylor. I'm talking about the Eli defenses. No, they had human era Strahan. You know, they. They had dudes after dude after dude. And. And they had. They came at you in waves like. Like the idea that one defensive player is good enough to raise your team to a Super bowl is just not reasonable. Ask Miles Garrett how that works. Ask Michael Parsons how that works. I mean, T.J. watt, what were his big playoff wins? Like, you got to have a host of guys, you got to have five or six way above average defenders to have a way above average defense. DeMarcus Lawrence did his part for over a decade here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And these individual honors are there. The team honors are not. But I just. I just want to appreciate these guys. Like, it's easy to appreciate Darren Woodson. He was part of that team. But the guys who have come since then, you know, a couple have the individual stats, but a lot of them are just going to get lost to time that. Yeah, you know, Tyron Smith, you know, there will be a time where people are not going to be sure if Tyron Smith was that great, because why did this team ever win? And I'm like, bro, I've got to tell you about Tyron Smith. You know, and so I feel like. I feel like there's a responsibility for some of us who lived it to continue to bang the drum that DeMarcus Lawrence was really, really good that was a time for him to go. I don't think so. Especially if you're going to break up with Micah. You might want to keep a leader here. But they, as, you know, they had something going. As you said, it was like Alpha, you know, king of the mountains.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And they didn't like each other. And the, the story, of course, is that, you know, DeMarcus Lawrence did not think Micah was the leader and maybe the off field obsessed with winning guy that he, he wanted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and, and that made him crazy because he's taking a pay cut and this guy's over here doing a podcast talking about, I need all this money. And, and so, you know, look, they're both.

[A]

Even rank his quarterback in the top five.

[B]

That's right. And they're. They're both gone. They're both gone. And so we can relitigate this forever. And maybe Micah Parsons is in a Super bowl at some point and we can do this whole thing again. And. But I, I just want to say, not really caring who wins Sunday. I care because I want to see DeMarcus Lawrence rewarded. I would love that for an awesome career.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you want to say it's a symmetry of two demarcuses from Cowboys winning Super Bowls in San Francisco 10 years apart, that's cool too. I think it's a neat little detail, but it really doesn't mean anything. But I just, I. I think DeMarcus Ware's career took another step up the ladder in the eyes of many when he won a Super bowl and had a couple sacks against Cam New In Super Bowl 50.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, did, did people really not know how good he was before that day? There must have been a few. But DeMarcus Ware was always great. The problem is he had the Cowboy stink on him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe, maybe with a lot of these guys, there is something to playing your last contract somewhere else and having that stink removed. Because like you said, you know, doesn't seem like he stinks in Seattle right now.

[A]

No. And one other thing on it at the time, I do think the Cowboys thought we'll get this mica thing worked out.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

What was. Was 40 million over three years for the Seattle deal. Yeah.

[B]

For DeMarcus Lawrence, I think it's less than that. Let me, let me make sure.

[A]

It was something that they would not have paid. 3 year 42. Right.

[B]

I have 3 for 32, 5 in my database. Yes. 3 for 32. 5 and 18 was guaranteed average annual value 10 point.

[A]

Oh, there it is. Yeah. 32. 5.

[B]

Now, he. He was coming off of 3 for 40 with the Cowboys, which was coming off a 5 for 105. Okay, so that was a restructure. He had a couple years left on that huge deal. The five for 105. And at the time, he's like the highest paid defensive lineman in the league. And much like Dak, there was never a time where anyone said, this is the best defensive lineman in the National Football League, because he's not. But the Cowboys franchised him, and they puttered around, tell me if this is familiar territory or not. You know, they drag their feet and then they end up overpaying for somebody, and then they blame him for being not as good as his money. When you. It's your fault. You had to overpay him because you got into a big fight with his agent. I don't know if that rings true with your present day quarterback, but it seems. Seems familiar.

[A]

It does. So if. If they would have found a way to keep both Parsons and DeMarcus Lawrence. Let's go with that scenario.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

How much better would the Cowboys have been this year? Well, would they have been a playoff team?

[B]

Yes, I think so. I mean, look, DeMarcus. I mean, the defense fell off in 2024, and DeMarcus Lawrence barely played.

[A]

He only played four games.

[B]

Yeah. And those two things are related.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So, yeah, I think when. I think we saw clear evidence from 21 through 23 that when both of them are healthy, the Cowboys defense was really good. Really good. Led the league in sacks, Led the league in takeaways. Yeah. So, you know, now did they win in the playoffs? Here we go again.

[A]

Yeah, here we go.

[B]

Here we go again.

[A]

But we're back to the prediction.

[B]

But if you're saying pick one of them. Now we have the conversation that we started with at the start of the season where you can't trade Micah Parsons with seven days to go in the season. I'm sorry. And you know, this makes people mad that they roll their eyes that we're talking about this again. But you can trade Micah Parsons, you can trade Luka Doncic. Okay, nobody's saying you can't trade certain guys in our sports universe, but if you do it, you need to do it correctly. You need to do it with common sense. And in the case of Luka Doncic, you should talk to more than just one team. In the case of Micah Parsons, you should do it in the early spring so that you have a chance to figure out your new plan. And if you do it in the early spring, then you probably keep DeMarcus Lawrence as one of your key leaders and, you know, usher in a new defense with. With leadership and quality and run stopping and, you know, all these moves are connected. So when you say goodbye to DeMarcus Lawrence in March and then him and Micah get into a little social media spat and they have it out publicly finally, well, then Micah is talking like, no, us cowboys over here. Well, now he's not a cowboy either. Like, there was no real wrong answer of choosing Micah over demarcus or demarcus over Micah. The wrong answer is choosing neither of them. And now you have no defensive line at all. When you start the season and you tell Matt Eberfluss, just figure it out.

[A]

Yeah, just run this. The stuff them play.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. Stop them.

[B]

It's just, you know, ill conceived, ill planned. But that's Cowboys football.

[A]

It is. And yeah, maybe next year will be the year that they figure all this out and get back to Super Bowl.

[B]

We don't sound like the world's biggest homer cowboy podcast in segment two. So we wanted to give you a little sour and a little sweet all in the same dinner.

[A]

Well, let's talk about America's favorite game, the super bowl and Super Bowl 60. The matchup. And just the magic of super bowl.

[B]

Mic drop.

[A]

You ready? Let's do it.

[B]

Hosted by former Navy SEAL Mike Ridland. It's unfiltered. You know, when you go to the.

[A]

Sound of the gun, bam, you're gone. It's weird. I mean, I've had so many near death experiences.

[B]

It's raw. I love this country. I offered my life to serve this.

[A]

Nation and protect its people. The question, you know, what's the meaning of life? And to me, it just boils down to one single word versus purpose.

[B]

Mic drop. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[A]

Okay. We get the Seahawks and the Patriots on Sunday. I think we both lean towards the Seahawks. I usually root for the NFC as we outlined rooting for DeMarcus Lawrence. I do think it is a really good matchup and I. It always makes me nervous when everyone seems to know what's going to happen, and especially when it involves the New England Patriots. We were convinced that they're going to be undefeated. The Giants turn the tables on them. There's no way they're beating the greatest show on turf. And that's where we were introduced to Tom Brady. Seahawks win on Sunday. We do believe. But yeah, I don't know that the Mike Vrabel Patriots are yeah. Are really a scrappy bunch. And if this postseason has taught us anything, it's been get ready for a close game.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think there's a good chance we have an entertaining game. I hope we do. And you know, the super bowl is always a melancholy thing for me. Like, I love the game, I love the history, but I also.

[A]

It's over.

[B]

I also have this feeling that football is about to be put tucked in its little bed and, you know, we got to get ready for truck day and all the things that we do between football seasons that we don't like as much. But you know, we, we do our best to stay occupied, but it's, it's. If you look at the present teams, I do like Seattle. Although to be fair, I probably, if you asked me in August what I thought of the 2025 Seattle Seahawks, I'm. I'm not sure I would have projected them anywhere close to this game. So I shouldn't act like this is. Well, this is the heavyweight champion. And can Darnold do that again? I don't know.

[A]

And look what he was at the end of the season in Minnesota. I had my doubts.

[B]

No doubt. And you know, even entering the playoffs, you look at the bracket and you're like, you know, Seahawks, okay, one seed, the home field advantage, but it's Darnold and it's the Seahawks. So from a present tense, we do like the Seahawks, but let's not get carried away with how much we like them, especially with a little depleted running back situation, you know, and they. That worked against the Rams, but that was a very, very tight, losable game for a big part of that NFC title game. And, and the Patriots do have a, a very solid defensive plan and usually get after it pretty well. Historically though, I am curious how you sit in the all time Game of Thrones in regards to the patriots for the seventh Lombardi Trophy. So there are four franchises that have won more than four Lombardi Trophies. The 49ers have five and probably are kicking themselves because on the final week of this season, they had a chance to win home field throughout the playoffs in the one seed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then host the super bowl, which only the Brady Tampa Bay Buccaneers have been able to pull off.

[A]

They were running out of players.

[B]

They were running out of players.

[A]

But yeah, maybe that could have been different had they been at home. I, I think they left it on the field in Philly and had no chance.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Seattle.

[B]

That's right. They emptied their tank and they probably achieved their ceiling for this year, but they won't host another super bowl for a while. I'm assuming the Cowboys have five, and we've detailed that to a great extent over the years.

[A]

By the way, what do you think of the GOT5T shirt? I think it's an embarrassment because it's been so long.

[B]

I would probably table any sort of bragging about super bowl accomplishments until you.

[A]

Don'T even bring it up until you.

[B]

Get one within the decade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And then the six Lombardi group is two teams. It's your Pittsburgh Steelers and it's your New England Patriots. Yep. And so. And it is worth noting that The Patriots had zero in the year 2000. So they're on a heater, as the kids might say. And so they can get to seven. And in my super bowl franchise rankings, I'll spoil it. They're already the new leader. Just by making the super bowl, they have moved past the Steelers back into first place and they. The lead the Cowboys had 25 years ago on the Patriots is like 100 to nothing. And obviously seven Super Bowls.

[A]

Or Jerry says he wants to catch Robert Kraft. That's his goal. Which I've never heard before.

[B]

I want to dunk from the free throw line, George.

[A]

Until this off season. And we're thinking, okay, well, I like goals, but that's a. Yeah, that's a stretch.

[B]

Want to climb Everest, but yeah. So. So does it do anything for you to in any way hope that the Patriots don't pull too far away? Or is that. Is that interesting to you? Or honestly, is it more an interesting story to see a team with such a coach. Quarterback dynasty to tear it all down and build it right back up this fast with completely new characters in their story. Is that something we should all just admire that. Wow. It can be done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That quickly and that effectively.

[A]

Absolutely. And yeah, there is something to the Patriots being here again and. And having the chance to make history with. With total wins. And I know. Seems like the rest of America is like, oh, gosh, not the Patriots again. And now they got a young quarterback. Is if he is the second coming of Brady, are we going to be putting up with them for the next decade? And you never know. I really like Vrabel, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just like him. And I don't know. I really don't. Outside of rooting for DeMarcus Lawrence. And I think the Sam Darnold story is. I don't get tired of talking about it. We've talked about it on a radio show and I did Some deep dives and listening to him talk about it, including Jason Garrett. And I don't know if you saw that interview that aired a couple of weeks ago on NBC, but he read Sam Darnold, the Cowboys scouting report on him.

[B]

Really?

[A]

And it was spot on. It was. I'm going to get to the negative. The negative. First, too many mistakes, too many interceptions, too many forced balls. But then he went down to incredible arm talent, intelligence, toughness. And he said, this is the one that I have highlighted at the bottom. I really like your ability to come back from adversity. And he meant, I think, in the context of a game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But has. Outside of Jim Plunkett. That's a. It's a comp that I came up with this this week.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

There are very few others who have come back, and it's all required that you win the Super Bowl. We tend to forget about the quarterbacks who lose them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if Sam Darnold wins the super bowl, what a redemption story from where he was as a guy who also said in that interview that on NBC that he felt like after he left Carolina that for the rest of his career he would be a backup quarterback.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting. That's really interesting. You know that 2018 draft in general. So was that. Did Garrett. Was that his report that he wrote?

[A]

Yes, it was his copy of it. Because he had his own notes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But some of them. It's got a collective scope of Darnold.

[B]

Interesting. I need to go find that. But. But I went back to my 2018 draft stuff and.

[A]

Interesting. What did Bob say?

[B]

I had him as a one one.

[A]

I thought.

[B]

I thought he was the best quarterback in the. In the draft. The best player in the draft. And.

[A]

And he was only 20 years old, too. And you go to New York not only on a bad team, but New York, Right. From Southern California. What.

[B]

I mean, it's the Baker Mayfield story, except Baker's winning the super bowl because they're in the same draft. And. Well, Baker had some success.

[A]

Baker was cast aside to the point.

[B]

Where he was cast aside several times.

[A]

They run scout team defense. And how about the fact that they are together in Carolina?

[B]

That's so nuts. It's so nuts. With Matt Rule, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Joe Brady. I suppose so. Yeah. There's a million things there that are fascinating, but probably the biggest one is there's no substitute for experience and for learning to fail. That's like. I love the draft. I'm working on it right now. Every day I try to knock out another player for this coming draft. But the whole time, the more you do it, the more it does humble you, because you're going on such limited information. Even if you try to watch as many games as possible and read as many things as possible and you're projecting, you're doing guesswork. And the reason you're doing guesswork is the story is not written like if you were studying about World War II, you could put in enough study time that you would know all of the twists and turns and outcomes and all the pieces on the chessboard. What you don't know when you're studying draft guys literally, is what tomorrow is going to do to them. And that can mean what team is going to take them, but it could also mean if you hand them a check for $10 million, do they feel the same way about going to the gym and the same way about eating right and taking care of themselves and being obsessed? And how about this? On draft day in any sport, Most of these young men who are at the very top of the draft have never failed in their life. They have been the best player in every game and every league and every situation.

[A]

And that's why that was noted by Garrett. How do you deal with failure? How do you deal with failure? And how much that. About that kind of failure to where you're seeing ghosts. They reap that replayed. You're booted out of New York.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they think Zach Wilson's a better choice.

[B]

And in social media, what. What does it do to your brain to know that everybody is saying how much you suck and how it's your fault and how you are a failure? And, dude, that does mental damage to people. And so that information doesn't exist because the experiments haven't been done. And so when you say, how did you not see Sam Darnold doing this eight years into his career? It's because nobody knew how interested he was going to be in failure and getting up and failure and getting up and failure and getting up and the resolve that that takes. And it's not for the money. He's rich. It's not for the fame. He's famous. It's because it's burning inside him that I want to keep going. I don't want to give up. I don't want to go work a normal job and just spend my money and go play golf. I can do that down the road, you know? So that is the endlessly fascinating part of following these athletes, because when they're 20 years old, you have to Have a take on what this guy is going to turn into, but you don't have any of the necessary information about what's inside them. How much do they care? How much can they handle being told how awful they are? And what if they have buffoons running their organization who are just trying to keep their own jobs?

[A]

Jets, the worst possible team for him to go to.

[B]

Yes. And a savage meet that just loves just mocking you and mocking your new girlfriend or just whatever. And all the mental strife that puts on everything. So, again, the scenic route. But I do want to say that this is what humbles you about trying to evaluate these guys, is that you have to say, no matter how strongly I feel about this tape I just watched, there is this ocean of unknown territory that I have to temper things good, bad, or indifferent on. But there's so much we don't know. And you want to say that's assumed and everybody knows it and it's baked in. But clearly it's not because of the way we talk about these guys and the way we just rip them to shreds when they let us down.

[A]

Yeah, he's got nothing.

[B]

Just sick of looking at his face.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and it's. It's not just one thing because I've always said, well, he hit the Kyle Shanahan reset. But, you know, Sam Darnold also had Ben McAdoo, Cowboys, tie in. He left the Cowboys as a consultant from 21 to 22.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Became the Panthers offensive coordinator. Sam Darnold talked about, you know, he really helped me with my footwork and keeping my eyes downfield and how it related to my feet. Then he got Kyle Shanahan, then he got Kevin o', Connell, who helped him, and now he's around a great team. So now all those pieces that he didn't have in New York have come together for him, and I would love for him to get that. That crown put on his head on Sunday of, dude, this is one of the greatest comeback stories and stick with it stories in NFL history.

[B]

Well, and you just. You just mentioned that he basically got his doctorate in quarterbacking over the years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yet in our sports commentary, or in the way we all see sports, we would rather have a blank slate of JJ McCarthy or whoever's in this year's draft. We would rather have them because they've never failed. And we don't have tape of them seeing ghosts, and we don't have. We don't remember mocking them. So give me lit. You know, people say give Me, anybody but this guy, Right? Whereas this guy is right now being educated at the school of hard knocks by football geniuses. And he's putting in his 10,000 hours to become wiser and wiser and wiser and growing his brain and grow his armor is getting thicker because he's surviving and finding out that failure is actually making me better. And if I just stick with it, maybe there's a breakthrough coming. I mean, this is the entire sports conversation here. I know it's kind of deep, but at the same time, we don't want recycled old names from old drafts. They suck. Give me something new and exciting and fresh and bright eyed and it's backwards. We should want somebody who's educated by all of the people you just mentioned. And they're getting better and they're working at their craft. It's the 10,000 hour rule. They're putting in their 10,000 hours. And so, right. By the time they become educated, we want to throw them in the trash and we want to start over with somebody we don't know has even a thousand hours in.

[A]

And I'll leave you with two things. That year in Carolina, Sam Darnold went 4 and 2 and his quarterback rating was 92 point something. And then it all blew up with rule. And you know, he goes out to San Francisco and it relates to, to me and you, Bob, because when he goes to San Francisco, I remember you saying, San Francisco may end up with Darnold as their quarterback instead of Brock Purdy. And I remember saying to you, you are crazy. This guy's trash.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I didn't realize he had a 92 quarterback rating at Carolina. I just, I remember the ghost story of New York and I had dismissed him, but, but little if I, if you would have told me he's going to go and win 14 games in Minnesota, he's going to win a Super bowl for Seattle. I said, bob, how much money you have in your pocket?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

I'll put, I'll bet you on that.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, look, the opposite is true for me. I fell in love with Sam Darnold at usc and I was convinced he was the best quarterback in that draft. Better than Josh Allen, better than Lamar Jackson. Now he's beat them both to the super bowl, which is interesting, but better than Baker Mayfield. Now, so was I right or was I wrong? Well, I was obviously wrong, but maybe I'm right.

[A]

I think you may be right.

[B]

But then here's where I'm wrong is I can't see Brock Purdy on the same level, because going back to the draft, he wasn't one of those chosen ones in the first day or two. So now here's a day three guy, and he is now getting educated and becoming a genius. But he doesn't have the arm of Sam Darnold, and he doesn't have the mobility of Sam Darnold. And so I am just the opposite of the people that are tired of the old draft guys. Now I'm saying, no, Darnold can do it. I swear. Stick with him. Whereas with Purdy out of Iowa State, we all kind of thought he sucked. And so now I have to convince myself, no, no, no. Once they get to the league, they're just NFL quarterbacks. Stop worrying about.

[A]

Worry about that matter.

[B]

Worrying about the draft week. He could be undrafted. He could be Tony Romo.

[A]

I was about to bring him up.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

So there's no one way to do it.

[B]

All of this is our mental biases and our past experiences, which might actually make us dumber the more we fall back on them. Because again, there's no accounting for will money, will fame, will failure. Will social media break these guys or will it make them stronger? And it's just. It's. It's endlessly fascinating. And some people say, so why even bother trying to evaluate guys? Because it never. I mean, it's what we do. And we're trying our best and we're trying to hit.270 instead of.240 with our batting average with these draft, you know, prospects, because I want to be as good as I could be at it, but I know, I know I'm going to fail on most of these or on a lot of them, and I want to do better. And I don't know. So whatever walk of life you're in, I think there's applications, but it's very confusing. But really, more than anything, the more you do any of this, the more you should realize what we cannot know. And the percentage of that in the recipe should make us a little more full of humility when evaluating athletes, because the unknown is probably the majority of the information that actually matters.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I'm sorry, there's no amount of tape you can look at from when they're 19 years old that will. That will be more important than how they deal with their post draft life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When their journey actually begins.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If that makes sense.

[A]

Well, it does. And what a journey it's been for the Seahawks and the Patriots. What a journey this podcast has been from a bold prediction to A high level quarterback conversation. Yeah, that's what you get here.

[B]

Wasn't quite the super bowl preview or the super bowl reminisce that we planned. But you know what? I enjoyed the heck out of it.

[A]

I did too.

[B]

We're at the table. We had to come to San Francisco.

[A]

To sit at the same table and talk football and talk Cowboys and Super Bowl. Two words that really, you know, two things that haven't gone together in the last 30 years. But who knows? Maybe next year, Bob, we'll be singing a different song from Los Angeles.

[B]

I like the way you're headed.

[A]

Well, thanks to Peter Welton to listen and produce all of this in our little venture here. From San Francisco, California, he's Bob Sturm. I'm George Dunham and thanks for being with us on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. Football friends. Yay.

[B]

It's the biggest game on the planet and nobody breaks it down like Jim Rome. Super bowl run. Who do you think will be the last one standing this year? Fearless debate and the best callers in sports.

[A]

What you say defense went Super Bowl?

[B]

That defense absolutely is super bowl caliber. The quarterbacking sure as hell wasn't. He's the spitfire of sports smack. A lot to get to and I'm not sure you're going to like all of it. Honestly, I don't even care if you like all of it or not. I have a job to do. The Jim Rome show. Get up in here, follow and listen on your favorite platform.