Cowboys Weekly - Giving The Jones Credit

Summary

The Musers The Podcast – "Cowboys Weekly: Giving The Jones Credit"

Episode Date: May 7, 2026
Hosts: George Dunham and Bob Sturm
Summary by Section with Timestamps

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Episode Overview

This episode of “The Musers The Podcast” is a deep dive into the Dallas Cowboys’ approach to the 2026 NFL Draft, their strategies in trade negotiations, and an appreciation (with tongue-in-cheek commentary) for the “The Pick is In” NFL Films/ESPN documentary that gave a behind-the-scenes look at this year’s war rooms. Hosts George and Bob deliver their signature blend of sharp insight and playful banter, spotlighting how the Cowboys’ front office, led by the Jones family, navigated draft day pressure and brand-building spectacle. The guys also discuss rookie minicamp buzz—especially first-round pick Caleb Downs—and sneak in hopes for new mascots and potential podcast field trips.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Pick is In" Documentary and Cowboys Front Office Theater

[01:07–06:39]

• The episode opens with George and Bob fanboying over the ESPN/NFL Films doc "The Pick is In."
  • Quote - George:
    “Cowboys are really the stars of it...To see how they traded up and traded down...Hey, let's put three cameras at the Star.” [01:36]
• The Cowboys' war room is compared to Star Trek's Enterprise: plush, crowded, and a deliberately branded stage—family, sponsors, and optics everywhere.
  • Quote - Bob:
    “It looks like the deck of, like, the Enterprise in Star Trek...We got all the grandkids between each member of the Cowboys front office. It’s so perfectly Cowboys.” [04:13]
• The hosts lampoon the presence of non-football personnel in the war room—“tour groups,” grandkids, and apparent corporate partners.
• The Cowboys' transparency and love of spectacle is noted—with a wink:
  • Quote - Bob:
    “Andrew Berry is not the star of this show. Let’s not kid ourselves.” [05:50]

2. Inside the Draft Day Trade Calls

[06:39–17:48]

• Audio clips reveal the Cowboys’ attempts to trade up for safety Caleb Downs, including negotiations with Cleveland and Miami.
  • Negotiations with Cleveland for the 9th pick stall when Dallas lowballs the Browns, offering only what the traditional draft chart deems fair.
  • Quote - Bob (on Browns GM Berry declining):
    “If you’re just going to offer them exactly what the chart says it’s worth, you’re probably smart for not overpaying...the Browns were probably pretty smart to…kind of say: how does that really help us?” [09:37]
  • The hosts discuss how close the Cowboys came to missing on Downs—a single different pick, and he’s a Giant, not a Cowboy.
  • Quote - Bob (on risky patience):
    “That is a slippery slope, man. If you're telling me Caleb Downs is about to transform your organization but you weren't willing to go higher than a fifth to tip the scales... that’s a risky move you got away with.” [11:37]
• When Miami is on the clock at 11, Dallas ultimately sweetens their offer (two fifth-rounders) to secure their target, racing the clock.
• The chaos in the war room—family, coaches, and perhaps tour groups—makes for both a comic and anxious atmosphere as the pick comes down to the wire.
  • Quote - Bob:
    “I'm reminded of my dad...he would cover the mouthpiece and say, ‘guys, can you quiet down a little bit? I’m trying to hear myself.’...you're like, guys, can you quiet down a little bit? I'm trying to hear myself, you know?” [16:06]

3. Decoding the Cowboys Draft Culture

[17:04–22:48]

• The hosts note how the doc confirms long-held suspicions about the Jones/McClay dynamic:
  • Will McClay calls the “play”; Stephen Jones acts as point guard and conveys final decisions, with Jerry intervening when necessary.
  • Quote - George:
    “You could hear Will McClay kind of call the play and then Stephen almost repeat it to his dad and the coaches...and then Stephen’s the point guard.” [17:04]
• Bob observes how much depends on timing and draft run: a string of picks ahead of Dallas is what allowed Downs to slip.

4. Cowboys’ Trade-Back Strategy & Philly Intrigue

[23:01–29:20]

• After landing Downs, the Cowboys trade back from pick #20 with the Eagles, picking up two 4th rounders and sending a 7th across for balance.
  • Quote - Bob:
    “If I call them, we’re gonna have to give up our sixth to do this...if they call us, we can get a better deal.” [26:48]
• The ripple effects: Pittsburgh thought they had a deal but Philly swooped in. Discussion on draft trade etiquette and the impact of coaches moving teams (e.g., McCarthy in Pittsburgh).
  • Draft process insight: Cowboys deferred to head coach “Shoddy” on 2nd first-round selection, with Malachi Lawrence picked over an early linebacker.

5. Rookie Minicamp Mania & Coaching Insights

[31:26–37:01]

• George admits he’s never been more hyped for minicamp, mostly due to Caleb Downs, but also edge Malachi Lawrence.
• New DC Christian Parker raves about Downs’ mentality and preparedness:
  • Quote - Christian Parker (on Downs):
    “He’s the same guy we had in the building on the 30 visit, same guy we saw on tape. Just an intentional person...consistent in his approach.” [32:25]
  • Notable: Downs had already studied Parker’s Eagles tape. Parker relishes that, pointing out their shared “language of football.”
• Bob and George admit to being sucked into Downs' hype and even joke about his jersey number (18)—hoping it’s just “minicamp temporary.”
  • Quote - George:
    “Who's the greatest 18 of all time? Peyton Manning...defensive player, there’s never been an 18.” [36:40]

6. Banter: Mascots, Outings, and Cowboy Cookie Monster

[37:46–46:09]

• Comic detour: the guys rail against “Rowdy” the mascot, imagining better alternatives—especially a “Cowboy Cookie Monster” slinging cookies at fans.
  • Quote - George (on Rowdy):
    “When that goofball started becoming this team’s mascot, they went straight to hell.” [38:03]

7. Post-Draft Calendar, Schedule Fever, and Podcast Trip Dreams

[40:41–45:52]

• The pair turns their eyes to schedule release (and ritual predictions), noting the Cowboys’ 2026 slate is among the league’s toughest, with a “home” game in Brazil.
• George aspires to a “Football Friends” trip to Lambeau Field—Bob is fully onboard:
  • Quote - Bob:
    “When the schedule comes out and the football friends have an emergency pod on our hiatus, you and I might have to book a Lambeau weekend.” [43:54]
• The hosts wrap with fondness for their Cowboys conversations and rye humor about off-season plans (“rally cookies” and “Cowboy Cookie Monster” included).

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Most Memorable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Cowboys draft war room:

  • “It looks like the deck of, like, the Enterprise in Star Trek... It’s so perfectly Cowboys.”
    —Bob Sturm [04:13]

• On trade negotiations:

  • “That is a slippery slope... if Caleb Downs is about to transform your organization, but you weren’t willing to go higher than a fifth...”
    —Bob Sturm [11:37]

• On the fan and sponsorship spectacle:

  • “I swear if you look closely enough at some of these shots... those people in the background, I bet they're sponsors that are paid a certain level.”
    —George Dunham [05:18]

• On Christian Parker’s view of Caleb Downs:

  • “He’s the same guy we had in the building on the 30 visit...just an intentional person. Consistent, really, you know, just flatline...consistent in terms of his approach.”
    —Christian Parker [32:25]

• On rookie jersey numbers:

  • “No, I think that's a terrible number...defensive player, there's never been an 18.”
    —George Dunham [36:40]

• On mascot reinvention:

  • “When that goofball started becoming this team's mascot, they went straight to hell.”
    —George Dunham [38:03]
  • “2026 the year Caleb Downs and Cowboy Cookie Monster arrived.”
    —Bob Sturm [38:58]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:07–06:39] – Reviewing “The Pick is In” documentary and Cowboys' war room style
• [06:39–17:48] – In-depth look at the Cowboys’ trade negotiations targeting Caleb Downs
• [23:01–29:20] – Cowboys-Eagles trade and draft maneuvering insight, including the fallout in Pittsburgh
• [31:26–37:01] – Rookie minicamp buzz; Christian Parker on Caleb Downs’ intangibles
• [37:46–39:40] – Mascot and branding banter: from Rowdy to Cookie Monster
• [40:41–45:52] – Schedule release fever, tough games, and ambitions for Lambeau podcast adventures

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Tone, Language, and Flow

The conversation is high-energy, candid, and loaded with classic “Musers” humor. The hosts move effortlessly from deep football analysis to satirical riffs on the Cowboys’ penchant for spectacle and self-promotion. They balance serious appreciation for draft strategy and front office discipline with playful jabs at branding and mascot ideas, never taking themselves or the process too seriously.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

If you wanted a window into the Cowboys’ draft machinations—their “method behind the spectacle”—this episode delivers, with real audio and inside-baseball details. Yet it’s as much a send-up of Jerryworld pageantry and what it means to love football in Dallas as it is draft talk. Whether you crave football insight, behind-the-scenes flavor, or just witty radio banter, this Cowboys Weekly is vintage Musers, through and through.

Transcript

[Ross Store Advertiser]

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[George Dunham]

Well, it's time for another edition of Football Friends. George Dunham and Bob Stern, the Muses, the podcast Cowboys edition. And we'll give you one more of these before we take a little break. But then we just started thinking, Bob. Oh my gosh, the schedule's about to come out in the NFL. So yes, we gotta go through that thing maybe next week, but we'll, we do. We'll let you know.

[Bob Sturm]

Football friends.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, football friends gotta get together for that.

[Bob Sturm]

We're going on vacation. But we will come off vacation for the schedule and then go back on vacation, right?

[George Dunham]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're still buzzing about the NFL draft. We're going to hear some comments from rookie minicamp. Yes, it's time to start minicamps and quarterback schools and all that stuff at the Star. But I will hand it to espn. They've really annoyed me lately with their coverage of wrestling and women's basketball. But they have done.

[Bob Sturm]

Not in that order.

[George Dunham]

Not in that order, but man, they did something brilliant. In conjunction with NFL Films to put out this NFL Presents the Pick is in. That aired earlier this week. I've watched it twice now. It's so good. And I just love the fact that the Cowboys are really the stars of it. To see how they traded up and traded down and of course, knowing going in Cowboys with two first round picks. Hey, let's put three cameras at the Star.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. And look, let's. Let's not be shocked that they're the stars of this. If there is a chance to grow the brand and to be on camera and to be the stars of their own movie, we knew the Cowboys would love it. And honestly, it's great. I mean, over the years, the Cowboys do not have a very high security intelligence department in terms of they've tweeted out their draft board twice. They have done other great things. And so the fact that they're willing to let us listen to all of their trade calls, it's actually quite cool. So let me at least slightly Walk back my dream that the Cowboys will protect their inside information a little more, but at least we know what was on the table. And honestly, George, from our standpoint, how much more I would have paid to get up to get Caleb Downs than Stephen and Jerry would have paid, because.

[George Dunham]

Interesting.

[Bob Sturm]

Walking away from it, and we'll listen to it here in a second, but walking away from it, I got the distinct impression that they were. They set a price and then they held to that price. And you know me, man, I'm panicking. I'm getting my guy. So I would. I might have cleaned out day three, and they did not. And to. To their credit, this hand of poker goes in their favor.

[George Dunham]

Yeah. And it did get. They did kind of get into a panic there because they barely got the pick in the. Behind the scenes is just great. From around the league, not only what the Cowboys are doing, what a phone call sounds like when you phone in a trade or a pick to the league. I guess we've heard that before here and there, but this is just a comprehensive. Well, that happened. So now this happened. And then.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

And, yeah, it's my only complaint from the Cowboys perspective is, are you kidding me? We're about to start the draft, and Jerry has to talk to a tour group that's going through the Star.

[Bob Sturm]

And. Yeah, I mean, honestly, if you look at it, there's so much that's kind of funny in that you see all the other war rooms and about 10 people. They're like lunchrooms that we all grew up with, like in middle school. They have some tables, and it's just a. It's a meeting room. There's nothing to it. Whereas the Cowboys had this furnished out, just brilliant. Like, it looks like the deck of, like, the Enterprise in Star Trek where it's this. You know, it's shaped. Everybody's got their position. We got Sulu over here. We got all the grandkids between each member of the Cowboys front office. It's. I. I mean, it's. It's so perfectly Cowboys.

[George Dunham]

And.

[Bob Sturm]

And yes, it is. The centerpiece of, like, your tour of the Star is. Oh, my gosh. I got to just walk into the war room, guys, where they. Where they actually call the league and enter in their trades and their draft picks. So it's. I mean, it's so Cowboys, George. It's just. It could not be more cowboys if it. If it tried.

[George Dunham]

So Cowboys that it has so many people in there. And it's not just cow scouts and coaches. It is family members. And I swear if you look closely enough at some of these shots, those people in the background, I bet they're sponsors that are paid a certain level. I mean, there's some kid in his dad back there like hitting each other on the shoulder going, oh my gosh, you're going to get Caleb. They have nothing to do with the organization, but they're back there because their dad's company probably pays 5 million a year in sponsorships or something.

[Comcast Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

And what could you sell those for? That's, that's the beauty of the whole thing. And at some point, Jerry's gonna walk by you on his way to go get a Diet Coke and an egg McMuffin, he's gonna wink at you, and they'll close you out on another three year sponsorship deal and a couple sweets. So, so it's, yeah, everything is, is, is calculated to, to, to keep the business going. The, the, the, the, the, the quaint small little family business we call the Dallas Cowboys. George, it was just all on display there. And, and I'm not complaining, there's a little tongue in cheek. But at the same time, I also enjoyed this NFL Films production very much. And there's no question the Cowboys make that entire thing happen. Andrew Barry is not the star of this show. Let's not kid ourselves.

[George Dunham]

I thought he was a pretty cool customer, especially when the Cowboys called up and he's like, nah, I think we're good. And we, we had that. All that pre draft guessing of. Are the Cowboys moving up with Cleveland at number six? Well, it turns out Kansas City was willing to pay more than the Cowboys were, so they moved up the number six. And then as we get down to nine, that's now a pick owned by Cleveland. And the Cowboys thought, well, surely we can make this deal. That's where we're starting off, right where the Cowboys make the call to Cleveland Saints and then the Browns will select next. Dallas is asking if any interest in what. Yeah, we'll text me too.

[Stephen Jones]

Who's there?

[George Dunham]

And it depends on the price. They want to come up to nine.

[Stephen Jones]

They say what about they're 24. So nine and 24 for 12 and 20. Asking just to cogitate on it, they want to do 9 and 24 for

[George Dunham]

12 and 20, which is light on all dimensions.

[Bob Sturm]

Oh, there it is.

[NFL Films Announcer]

New Orleans has submitted its pick.

[Bob Sturm]

Cleveland is on the clock.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

All right, you get a tackle.

[Stephen Jones]

New Orleans Saints select Jordan Tyson, Wide receiver, Arizona State.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

They're on the clock.

[George Dunham]

They're on the clock. I offered their 9, 24 for 12

[Stephen Jones]

and 20 and say, what else would you want? Yeah. Is this Andrew?

[George Dunham]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

Hey, this is Stephen.

[Stephen Jones]

Are y' all gonna pick away here?

[Bob Sturm]

We are.

[George Dunham]

We wouldn't do the swap of the first round.

[Stephen Jones]

Okay. If we threw in a five, would that change it?

[George Dunham]

No, that wouldn't really be.

[Stephen Jones]

And move the needle. Okay. Appreciate you.

[George Dunham]

I appreciate you, though.

[Bob Sturm]

All right. All right.

[George Dunham]

That's a lot.

[Stephen Jones]

I keep hearing Cleveland wants an offensive lineman and they're worried Cleveland's gonna. New York's gonna take it. They don't want to get behind the Giants.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

That's right.

[Stephen Jones]

All right.

[George Dunham]

Hey, Ayers, this is your orange die, buddy. The best tackle in this entire trap.

[Bob Sturm]

Okay, so. So now that. Now the Browns are taking Spencer Fano, what I. What I like about that, Georgie, is we basically get it confirmed from Steven that they're using the exact same Jimmy Johnson draft value trade chart that we are because he talked about throwing in a five, I think later in the Eagles trade or in one of these other deals. Oh, you know what? It might be the Dolphins trade that's coming up. But the point is, he's like a five. That's like 50 more points. The Browns guy, Andrew Berry says that 9 and 24 for 12 and 20 isn't. Isn't really. I forget his exact word and really move my needle. Yeah.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

And.

[Bob Sturm]

And you know what? It's. It's a dead bang even trade. And, and from the Brown standpoint, let's get our guy.

[George Dunham]

We see him there. Let's. Yeah, we don't want to mess with this.

[Bob Sturm]

Well, yeah, and. And. And honestly, Fano and then Ma and then Proctor went bang, bang, bang. So if you wanted a tackle, you. And if you traded back to 12, you might have been screwed. You know, maybe not. Maybe one of them would have been back there. But the point is, they got their guy, Fano. And if you make a trade back for 12 and 20, if the team that wants to trade up is going to make it worth your while. But if you're just going to give them four quarters for their dollar, how does that profit the Browns? Like, what's. You know, so. So that's what he's saying is, what if we throw in a five and you're like, yeah, that just gets us even. Now, if you want to throw in a three or you want to throw in, you know, a four, now the Browns profit by walking away from their guy, but if you're just going to offer them exactly what the charge says it's worth, you're probably smart for not overpaying But I, I think the Browns were probably pretty smart to. To not really laugh at Stephen, but kind of say, like, how does that really help us? It helps you guys get your guy. It doesn't help us at all. So I, I'm, you know, now that you hear the audio, that actually makes sense to me that the Browns said no. And honestly, George, here's where the media kind of suck because I'm. I'm realizing here, I'm going to say something that's unfair because they did get Caleb Downs. But if the Giants take Caleb Downs and you hear this audio and, you know, like, stepping up to a fourth probably gets the Browns to say, okay, now we've profited, we'll take this deal. That. Boy, that is a slippery slope, man. If you're telling me Caleb Downs is about to transform your organization, but you weren't willing to go higher than a fifth to tip the scales on that, that's a risky move that you got away with, so congratulations. But I think we would have viewed this way differently if Caleb Downs is the New York Giant, is what I'm saying.

[George Dunham]

Yes. And that was. I really thought from the Harbaugh perspective that that was a possibility for them.

[Bob Sturm]

Me, too.

[George Dunham]

But maybe they saw it as a defense, offense thing. We got Arville Reese fifth overall. The Giants did. So let's go and let's help our offensive line here and ma Noah, that's, you know, they need tackle help. So that makes some sense. And I think that's. That's the point where the Cowboys started freaking out. Holy cow. They didn't do Downs. So he's there. I don't think Miami's going to take him because they want to go offensive line as well. But who would trade up with Miami? And the Cowboys were not the only team thinking this is a top five pick that is still available here at either 11 or 12.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

The first thing we'll find out if

[George Dunham]

Miami wants Downs, that they might like

[Christian Parker]

to pick more than down.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

That might. But if they don't like Downs. Questions?

[Stephen Jones]

Why would you have to go one spot? It's 50 on the chart, which is a fit.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Well, I would if I thought Miami was going to take downs. If you want downs now, I'd get serious about some points, but you could give two fifths. But if I'm Miami, why doesn't Miami sitting there with us? We've had as much written about us and Downs as anybody there is in this draft. We knew it was a long shot. If we stayed at 12, he certainly was one of four players that we had that we were ready to put some ammo to go up to get.

[George Dunham]

Hey, Kyle.

[Stephen Jones]

This is Stephen Jones.

[Bob Sturm]

Hey, Steven.

[Stephen Jones]

How are you, man? Right here in Dallas. One behind you, wondering, are y' all gonna pick away or would you be interested?

[Bob Sturm]

What are you guys. What are you guys looking?

[Stephen Jones]

We'd probably throw in our fifth plus something. Go one spot, five plus.

[Bob Sturm]

No, no, we're going to stay.

[Stephen Jones]

Okay, we'll go pick. Okay, sounds good.

[George Dunham]

All right.

[Stephen Jones]

No good.

[Bob Sturm]

Miami is using all of its time here.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

I really didn't think that Miami, in this particular case, was going to draft him, but I didn't doubt a minute that somebody else would come over and trade Miami out of that spot and get him right out from under us. It wasn't a hard decision to go ahead and up the ante and make sure we had him.

[Stephen Jones]

The league in general, you know, had that feeling that, you know, the draft wasn't that deep and blue chip type, especially defensive players. So, you know, we just decided to pull the trigger there and send the two fives.

[George Dunham]

Hold on, here's Steve. Well, they'll move back one spot.

[Stephen Jones]

You'll move back one spot for a five? Yeah. No, we do. 177, 180 if it's two fives. Okay. Okay, we got it tight in.

[Bob Sturm]

Hold on.

[Stephen Jones]

Hold on, guys. Please be quiet.

[Bob Sturm]

Hello?

[Stephen Jones]

Hey, this Stephen.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Hey, Stephen.

[Stephen Jones]

We're giving them our primary pick, number 12, and we're giving them 177, 180. Miami, 1 7.

[George Dunham]

Okay. Yep.

[Stephen Jones]

Are we good?

[George Dunham]

Yes.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Turn it in.

[Stephen Jones]

They're turning it in. We got 10 seconds. Two seconds.

[George Dunham]

It's us on the clock.

[Bob Sturm]

Better hurry up and get it in. Dallas has submitted its pick.

[Prime Video Advertiser]

Miami is on the clock.

[Stephen Jones]

Caleb Downs.

[George Dunham]

Caleb, I got somebody who wants to talk.

[Bob Sturm]

Hey, Caleb.

[George Dunham]

Hey, Caleb. Can you hear me?

[Bob Sturm]

I'm reminded of my dad when he. We'd be, you know, having dinner at night, and the phone would ring and we'd all be messing around, and he would cover the phone, cover the mouthpiece of the phone and look it back at the table. It's like, guys, it's like I'm in the middle of a bus stop right now trying to have a conversation. And it's just like, you guys literally have tour groups in your war room. And now you're like, guys, can you quiet down a little bit? I'm trying to hear myself, you know?

[George Dunham]

And he looked to Steve when Steven said for everybody to quiet down. Guys, quiet, please. He was looking over in the. In the direction of, I think, where the coaches are. But it did make me think that the tour group was, like, in the back of the room there, and they were like, oh, my gosh, they're going to get Caleb Downs. And, yeah, he's just, like, getting spared to death in his own. In his own war room, but, you

[Bob Sturm]

know, casket of your own making.

[George Dunham]

So here we got these. You know, we got them on unicycles trying to do all this. But I give them credit. They did it, and it was kind of masterful how they did it there and talked her way through it, and Jerry was in there contributing. And we've suspected this, Bob, for a long time, but I think this illustrated. You could hear Will McClay kind of call the play and then Stephen almost repeat it to his dad and the coaches, and then Stephen almost the point guard is the one who, you know, officially, you know, makes those calls and all that. And it confirmed a lot of things. But then again, I hadn't heard it before, so it was pretty cool.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, really cool. In fact, if. So, the documentary is called the Pick is In and it's on espn. And, you know, it's part of this NFL Films, ESPN marriage we have these days where I think starting next year, ESPN is actually running the NFL Network. And that's a bunch of info you didn't need. But the point is, it's. There's. There's a lot of good stuff in here that even doesn't translate to. To football friends. Going back even earlier in the episode, the Giants put in the call with their first pick, which turned out to be Arvel Reese. And when they did that, if you. There's a. There's one second, George, where they show the Cowboys war room, and you can see Will McClay kind of with his body language and maybe even a fist pump, gets all excited that the Giants didn't take Styles or downs at five, because in his mind, that started the dominoes that made this possible. Because if they take downs, Washington takes styles. If they take styles, Washington takes downs. And so, honestly, you can even go before that and say it's important that Jeremiah Love goes at three and Carnell Tate goes at four. And now we're starting to shove offensive players into the top 11 of this draft. So our big six get to the Cowboys. That's where, you know, you needed Jordan Tyson.

[George Dunham]

Another one. Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes. You needed a run of skill, guys. So love Tate Tyson. And you needed a run of offensive linemen with Fano, Ma Noa and Proctor to make all this happen. And so I think that's fascinating. Of course, Mendoza went once. So you had seven offensive players before the Cowboys were on the clock. And the other thing which does come quickly to mind is, you know, just the way it. It all had to piece together to a point where you almost wondered, did the Cowboys have to make a trade at all at 11? Now I know they wanted to lock it in and I in no, I'm in no way, shape or form second guessing that. But we have had a couple, you know, football friends and p Ones ask us what. So if Miami's clock is down to five seconds, nobody can get in and make a trade with them. You're on the phone with them, so why give them any picks at all? And yeah, and you know, at that point, I don't know, at that point, maybe you. You have to deliver on your word. And Miami would be upset with. With that sort of decorum. I honestly, I don't know the answer, but. But I also have no problem with the answer being we just wanted to make sure we got our guy, Caleb Downs. Also, Jerry said there were four guys we would move for. I assume that's the two pass rushers and the two buckeyes, but I don't know that anyone has hashed out those four are styles and downs. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if Bain and Delaine who were in our big six. I feel like you and I said right before the draft that those two guys I probably wouldn't trade up for maybe denying for Delane if the chiefs didn't want him. But the Chiefs clearly did.

[George Dunham]

Excited about Delane.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. And honestly, I don't know why they traded up. Like, who were they trying to get in front of?

[George Dunham]

I don't know. I wonder that same thing. And as far as the timing to get up with the Dolphins, the only thing that I wonder if through the miracle of editing where there's still like two minutes, maybe, you know, so maybe it wasn't five seconds. Maybe, you know, not at that point it was, but maybe before they made that last effort, you know, in other words, that was edited to make it look like that. I wonder they didn't make the trade until like 15 seconds left or something like that, you know.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. And then. Then the other one that occurs to be Georgia. This is kind of funny is that at the end of that cut, if you look at again, everybody's eyes looking at each other and Jerry and Steven and I think Will is Spalding. So there's A method to call in a trade, and then there's a method to deliver your pick. And I believe those are two different methods. And so I think Jerry is trying to tell Steven, at least with his eyes, just tell them who we're taking. And then Steven's like, no, no, no, he's got it down there. Like, he pointed that. Now we've just done this trade. And they're like, two seconds, one second. And then Steven's like, oh, yeah, and we're taking Caleb downs. No, no, no, no. He didn't say that at all. Will type in Caleb downs real fast. So it felt a little like our fantasy football drafts.

[George Dunham]

You made the pick. You.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're skipped.

[George Dunham]

Okay, so fascinating stuff there. And then do we have the. Do we have one more with the. With the trade?

[Bob Sturm]

Back from 20 was also covered on the pick is in. So we should listen to that too.

[George Dunham]

Why not?

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Who's the best candidates? If you were them on a player.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah.

[Philadelphia Eagles Representative]

Coming to our 20.

[Bob Sturm]

Move to 20.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Yeah.

[Bob Sturm]

Philly,

[George Dunham]

just call Howie, Steve.

[Bob Sturm]

Oh, well, he's gonna.

[Stephen Jones]

If you call, we're gonna be given the six. I'm hoping he'll call and say, we'll do the two fours. We got time. We got a few minutes. Not like we're down to the 20 seconds we were. He's trying to call me. I tell him I'm calling him. Hello?

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Howie?

[Stephen Jones]

Howie, hey, this is Stephen.

[Bob Sturm]

How you doing, man?

[Stephen Jones]

Our seventh next year. We just. We're good. No, we don't want to. We're already giving up picks for this year. We're out of.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

We're out of picks.

[Stephen Jones]

But anyway, we did for sure do it for the two fours. I'll throw you a next year seven.

[George Dunham]

Okay.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

We got a deal.

[Stephen Jones]

We got a deal.

[George Dunham]

Politics and football make strange bedfellows. The Eagles and Cowboys made a trade. Drop three spots, picked up two fools.

[Bob Sturm]

This is Tess.

[Stephen Jones]

Yes, this is Steven Jones. We're trading this pick to Philadelphia.

[NFL Films Announcer]

Okay.

[Stephen Jones]

We're trading pick 20 for their pick 23. And we get there 114 and 137 in the fourth.

[NFL Films Announcer]

Okay.

[Stephen Jones]

And we give back our seventh next year.

[NFL Films Announcer]

Seventh next year.

[Bob Sturm]

Okay, test sounds. Test sounds like her lunch is in the microwave and she's just trying to.

[George Dunham]

Only half paying attention. And you outlined last week on our episode just how much the Cowboys have traded with Philly. And they're like, try them. Let's get them on the horn and see what can happen. And, you know, I don't know if you heard what's coming out of Pittsburgh? They were ticked because they were on the phone with Makai Lemon. They thought they had a deal, and they thought, I guess, you know, Philly, speaking of timing, that it was about up. And then all of a sudden, they own the 20th pick, and they call Lemon, and he has to get off the phone with the Steelers and say, okay, cool, I'll come to Philadelphia.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, I wonder. I wonder what? I mean, there are three things that enter into it. One, Mike McCarthy is now in Pittsburgh. Two, they're literally hosting the draft. And three, massive egg on your face for calling your pick before you're actually on the clock. Now, assumptions were made, and you're like, ah, well, Dallas isn't taking a wide receiver here, so we can go ahead and call our guy. But I. I don't know that you can find fault in what the Cowboys did. I mean, that's just business doing a deal. And. And I get that. I get that they're upset that they didn't get their guy, but I kind of think that this is probably their problem. And I also, you know, the other thing about that call, and I just can't unsee this stuff, George, is Stephen telling Jerry, if I call them, we're gonna have to give up our sixth to do this. So it would be, you know, they're two fifths, but we gotta give them a six to make it feel better so if they call us, we can get a better deal. Which reminds me, of course, that he won't call an agent.

[George Dunham]

Right.

[Bob Sturm]

Because then they. Then they lose high ground. Yeah. Which. Which is so frustrating to me. I know that it's such a. Again, it's such a Landman way of negotiation that, you know, I can't call you by your first name or look you in the eye or make the first phone call or grab for the lunch bill, because all of it looks like capitulation at the negotiation table. But again, it worked out, and then we have to pretty much go on, did they trade back enough and did they take the right guy? And I suppose the. That question should be asked in the other order. If Malachi Lawrence is a dude, then none of this matters. And if he's not a dude, then it all matters. And the two things that I think are worth pointing out, again, you see in the documentary, is one, shoddy is running point on Malachi Lawrence. It seems pretty clear in the audio that they're deferring to their head coach, which, by the way, is great. And their head coach, they have a conversation that involves C.J. allen. And C.J. allen, we knew was their linebacker of choice and he ended up going 53rd, by the way, to the Colts. And so the Cowboys were ready to take him at 20 if that conversation goes slightly different. They don't care where he's going to go. And we said that, we said they're going to take a linebacker or if they take a linebacker, they know they're doing it early, but they don't have any seconds. And so they're willing to do that. And they just have to decide between Jacob Rodriguez and C.J. allen. And we knew because of the rumblings that C.J. allen was their guy. They also have the Georgia linebacker coach on their staff now as Christian Parker just hired him. So we figured it might go that way as well. And they walked away from him because they really think Malachi Lawrence is the dude. And then once C.J. allen goes, goes in the second round, that's when they pull the trigger for Dee Winters with that fifth round pick. And so all this stuff, I mean, look, any one of us that does this for a living kind of wants to be like in a war room and maybe even having a vote at the table because that's what this whole thing is about. And we believe draft day is where championships are won. And you know, you got, you kind of get to see it there in that hour or hour and a half.

[George Dunham]

It's great.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah.

[George Dunham]

Highly recommend for any football friend to watch that. The pick is in ESPN Presents. Okay, so now these guys, these rookies make their first trip to the star and they brought up with shoddy and drop a bunch of bros and mans

[Bob Sturm]

and so many bros.

[George Dunham]

It is pretty cool though. And we'll hear what the new defensive coordinator has to say about the Cowboys. Two first round picks coming up next.

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[Philadelphia Eagles Representative]

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[George Dunham]

I have to admit, Bob, I don't know if I've ever been more excited about a rookie minicamp than this past week when the likes of Caleb Downs, just Caleb Downs alone. But I'm really interested in Malachi Lawrence. He, as we've talked about, he tested really well athletically, just off the charts. He has a does a lot of the technical things that coaches really like in an edge rusher. And we're going to hear some interesting things here from from Christian Parker, the Cowboys new defensive coordinator and talking about is two prize rookies who are now coming in here. I think this is interesting when he was talking about Caleb Downs and saying that when he, when he got here. I mean, it's just a minicamp, but it confirmed to them all the things that they saw when they were talking to him before the draft.

[Christian Parker]

He's the same guy we had in the building on the 30 visit, same guy we saw on tape. You know, just an intentional person. Consistent, really, you know, just flatline, you know what I mean? Not like in terms of not having energy, but he's just consistent in terms of his approach and everything he does.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, I just. He's the prototypical player that we hear Christian Parker likes and he went on and on about him and hey, again, I can't think of a defensive player we were trying to come up with this last week. I can't think of a defensive player taken in the draft that I've been more excited about than than Caleb Downs.

[Bob Sturm]

Isn't that something? Man, that is, you know it. Again, I'm a little nervous about the level of checks that are being written in his name because he probably needs to be able to levitate by week one for us to, to. To believe he's been worth all this talk. But usually if to hear a room full of football men go this crazy about somebody, there's usually a reason for it. And that's, that's what's exciting, is we, we will get to see that in Oxnard and beyond, as, you know, they, they feel, you know, and I believe this. And there's a big thing, you know, going back to Bill Parcells about changing the defense requires having some really special pieces to lead the way. And I just feel like maybe this generation's demarcus Ware is Caleb Downs, and if he's anything close to that, which, you know, is a Hall of Famer, then, then, then we're going to have some good times coming soon.

[George Dunham]

No doubt. And this is more of Christian Parker talking about Downs and how while he loves so many things about him, maybe at the top of the list, the way they, they see the game almost the same way.

[Christian Parker]

Yeah, hit it off pretty well. You know, I think even down to his 30 visit coming in here, he's very fit, familiar what we were going to do because he watched our tape from. From Philadelphia, you know, the past two years. Jim Knowles and Matt Guerri, their safety coach, came up to visit us in Philly during the spring, twice when I was there. So a lot of the stuff he was familiar with from the shell system and some of the things, they played a different style, but it was very similar. So talked about some of those things on his visit, talked about his tape, and it's been the same thing.

[George Dunham]

So that's interesting. That's Jim Knowles. That's going back before Matt Patricia 2 years ago when he went up to Philadelphia. And so that's how, you know, he knew Christian Parker. And yeah, I think that the Cowboys weren't the only ones that spent a lot of time watching Ohio State tape. But there's a tie in there, and you can, you can see that. And I mean, this is a little thing, but how about Caleb Downs thinking, okay, they got a new defensive coordinator. I'm going to go watch some Philadelphia tape. I mean, that may seem like a small thing, but I think that's pretty bright for a guy who's, you know, I mean, most of these guys show up in these 30 visits and they're like, yeah, I'm on my way to the league. What are you getting? When are you going to draft me?

[Bob Sturm]

You know, Right. Let's go to the jewelry store. Let's get some let's get sick chains. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I get it. Different. Different approaches for different guys. But. But, yeah, this guy digs in, and we know this. And the college game raved about him last year at all the different turns. Joe Klatt and Matt Patricia and Nick Saban. And just all these guys are like, you won't believe this kid. His processor is maybe his greatest asset. And it's got me to a point, George, where on a quiet day, and there aren't many, but maybe there will be here when we go on a little bit of a hiatus. I just grab an Ohio State game and just. I just want to watch the Indiana game from last year. I want to watch the Michigan game from last year. You know, just the Texas game. I just want to watch Caleb Downs play football. And that's. That might be sicko stuff in the month of May, but I'm here for it. And the other thing, I need to ask you this. Are you. Are you okay with number 18?

[George Dunham]

No, I think that's a terrible number. I've. I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, who's the greatest 18 of all time? Peyton Manning. I mean, was he 18? Yeah, he was 18 when he.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, but quarterback division? I don't know.

[George Dunham]

I mean, defensive player. There's never been an 18.

[Bob Sturm]

No.

[George Dunham]

I thought he was going to wear two.

[Bob Sturm]

We got to be careful about this 18.

[George Dunham]

Is that a minicamp number? Let's hope that's a mini camp number.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

In fact.

[Bob Sturm]

In fact, he wants two, and Kobe Durant is squatting on it.

[George Dunham]

Oh, okay.

[Bob Sturm]

Who has played zero Downs as a cowboy? I realize you're an NFL veteran, but this is certainly going to get sorted, right?

[George Dunham]

Yeah. This is going to be some of his rookie bonus. It's going Kobe Durant's way.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. Maybe the Cowboys give Kobe Durant some credit at the pro shop or, you know, maybe. Maybe Rowdy will do a couple birthday parties of his choosing for free.

[George Dunham]

Who can't imagine anything worse.

[Bob Sturm]

There's just no way. There's no way that Kobe Durant, who has played zero Downs in Dallas, gets to take Caleb Downs number.

[George Dunham]

I wish somebody at the Star would take me seriously about getting rid of Rowdy. Not the person inside the costume, just the costume itself. There was a direct correlation. When that goofball started becoming this team's mascot, they went straight to hell. They just did.

[Bob Sturm]

And would you. Are you willing to offer alternatives? I feel like your brain could design something. Pretty.

[George Dunham]

Pretty horse. You know, my. My Mascot rule. Must have a tail, must have a snout. And you know, be some kind of funny looking animal. Cartoonish. Muppet is okay too, but Rowdy's not a Muppet. He's just scary. Nightmare fuel. Just no good. Kids don't think.

[Bob Sturm]

Okay, so an actual animal. Not like the Philly fanatic. We can't make something up. We have to. Like, if you make it dog family.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, if you make it Muppet like enough like something that looks like Ernie, that'd be hilarious. Okay, Cookie Monster. Something like that.

[Bob Sturm]

All right.

[George Dunham]

Cookie already has this, right? The right color blue. That would be perfect with a cowboy hat. Me one.

[Stephen Jones]

Touchdown.

[Bob Sturm]

Come on, let's go. 2026 the year Caleb downs and cowboy Cookie Monster arrived.

[George Dunham]

Throws out cookies to the fans. Man, there's so many cookies.

[Bob Sturm]

George.

[George Dunham]

Rally cookies. Yeah. The Cowboys ever get behind and get some rally cookies going?

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. If anyone's in charge of the rally cookies, it has to be you.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Me.

[George Dunham]

You, me and Cookie Monster.

[Bob Sturm]

That's right.

[George Dunham]

Okay, let's give some parting shots as we finish up with heading into the the abyss of the post of the of the off season. Let's do that next on Football Friends.

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[George Dunham]

down what's been a lot of fun on football friends. Now granted, we may be back next week or the week after with some sort of scheduling podcast because I agree that people used to laugh at Craig Miller and I when we would do back in 1994 when the Cowboys schedule came out, we went game by game and everyone thought it was the dumbest thing they'd ever heard in their lives. And now this is now a a night on the NFL Network and ESPN of let's go to the schedule release. Let's see who's playing where and that's right. It's turned into almost, almost like a pre Christmas event and yeah, I can't wait. And ought to be interesting to see where the Cowboys and the. And the order of which they're going to play.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah. So this is, this is the year where the Cowboys have a tough schedule. I think I forget what it was ranked last year, but it's, it's one of the five toughest schedules in the league. I don't know if you know that.

[George Dunham]

No, I did not know that.

[Bob Sturm]

Real quick. They haven't laid them out yet, but if you don't mind. 17 games, nine home games, eight away games. But one of the nine home games is a fake home game. It's the game in Brazil in week three. So, so one of their home games will be. There'll be the home team in Rio de Janeiro which surely the musers the podcast will be covering live in person.

[George Dunham]

I would imagine there's an idea right there.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, I would think so. But okay, home opponents, of course, Eagles, Giants, Commanders, and then the, the, the floaters. Looks like we got the NFC West AFC south rotation with home games with Niners and Cardinals, Jaguars and Titans. And home. The floating, floating NFC game is the Buccaneers. Okay, so those are your eight home games plus the bonus Ravens game schedule. It's tough, but you know, I mean, come on, we can do this. And the away schedule must be where it gets way tougher. Let's take a look here. Eagles, Giants, commanders, of course. Now the two AFC west teams that don't come to your place, you go to their place at Seahawks, at Rams, AFC South. The two teams that don't come to your place, you must go to their place at Houston George at Colts. Okay, and then, and then the floater, the rotating game, you play the Buccaneers at home, that means you go to Lambeau Field and play the Green Bay packers again up at their place.

[George Dunham]

Oh yeah. You know, Bob, I've never been there, dude. And after the Kentucky Derby I thought, okay, these are my places. Kentucky Derby, US Open, which I may take care of next year because it's going to be back to pebble beach and Lambeau. Those are my top three, man.

[Bob Sturm]

When the schedule comes out and the football friends have an emergency pod on our hiatus, you and I might have to book a Lambeau weekend.

[George Dunham]

I'd love it. I would absolutely love it.

[Bob Sturm]

That would be amazing.

[George Dunham]

Especially love to go there with you. Show me everything that I need to know.

[Bob Sturm]

And do you think the Cowboys would get us on the sideline because you're George.

[George Dunham]

We're wearing. We're wearing jackets that say Football Friends on the back. Yes.

[Bob Sturm]

Mine says football and your says Friends. We have to stand next to each other. I bet they'd let you cover a kick, man, if we play our cards

[George Dunham]

right best, that would be absolutely. What if the Badgers were home the day before.

[Bob Sturm]

Oh, my God.

[George Dunham]

I've never been there. Never been to Camp Randall.

[Bob Sturm]

Okay, jump around. Crazy. I want to make this all happen, but this will be a great topic for football Friends emergency edition. Coming. Coming soon for. For the schedule breakdown and the surely the 17, 0 or 16 and 1 proclamations that we come up with. So it's going to be great. Otherwise, this is the time of year where once in a while a little morsel of news comes out, but everybody kind of gets done with minicamp. Hopefully we get Caleb Downs his proper number and. And. And you know, you got about 60 days to decompress, and then we'll be in Oxnard. So, you know, you got a World cup, you got a couple of golf majors, you got what's left of the playoffs, and you got some barbecuing to do. And then. And then in July. George, we're back.

[George Dunham]

We're back, baby. It doesn't last long. This. This downtime for football doesn't last long.

[Bob Sturm]

And.

[George Dunham]

Yeah, check the wires. We will be back here at some point in the next couple of weeks with a schedule addition and maybe plans for an incredible Wisconsin weekend to talk about. Man, that would be something else.

[Bob Sturm]

All right.

[George Dunham]

This has been the best. Bob, you're the best. And really do enjoy the conversations about the Cowboys in the league and the game of football and rally cookies and friends and the whole thing.

[Bob Sturm]

Yes. And new mascot.

[George Dunham]

And new mascot. Yeah, we got a mascot to switch out here in the off season.

[Bob Sturm]

Cowboy Cookie Monster. Boy, get to work, listeners.

[George Dunham]

Cowboy Cookie Monster. Man, that is. That really has possibilities there. Yeah, sure does. Could pitch that to Jerry and sell him on it. So you're saying that cookie monsters are going to get out there and going to have cowboy hat, stick, horse, and. And we can get a cookie deal for him? Yes, you get a cookie deal for him. Oreos, whatever.

[Bob Sturm]

Yeah, maybe a lawsuit from Sesame street. But don't worry about that.

[George Dunham]

Don't worry about that. We'll get them on board, too. And then the kids want them to. Then, see, the kids really want them to come out to their elementary school because they can identify with me.

[Bob Sturm]

Like Cookie, maybe Bob and Gordon and Gloria, who are the other sesame street people.

[George Dunham]

Mr. Hooper may rest in Mr.

[Unknown NFL Executive]

Hoop.

[Bob Sturm]

Oh, I bet you rest in peace to quite a few. Yeah, probably.

[George Dunham]

They're all probably gone by now. But not Cookie Monster.

[Bob Sturm]

No, no. He lives forever.

[George Dunham]

He lives forever. All right. Thanks to Peter Welton for producing this football. Friends, we will be back at some point very soon.

[Bob Sturm]

We're going to year two, baby.

[George Dunham]

Let's go.

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