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- [00:00]
A
This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2% daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com
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B
well, from California, Oxnard, California, site of Dallas Cowboys Training Camp 2026. This is Football friends. It's George Dunham, it's Bob Sturm, together in our El Barbara training camp. For gosh sakes.
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C
We back, baby.
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B
We are back.
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C
So good to be here. And you know, we are at practice, we're, we're talking to football players. We're feeling footbally. What a great place for football friends to reconvene.
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B
It is. And there's nothing quite like training camp. There's nothing like quite like training camp with the Cowboys. They're a lot like rock stars when they travel out of the state of Texas. I would say in all the years we've been coming here now, 20 years in Oxnard, California, and the first couple of years, it was like, oh, my God, the Cowboys are here.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Then it waned a little bit. It goes back and forth. But what we have seen in the first week of camp, huge crowds, lines going in to the parking lot. Did they market this different this year? Or are people in Southern California feeling the vibe of football friends that this, this year could be different?
- [01:46]
C
I think there's a legitimate vibe. I do think the, the Caleb Downs fever, the Christian Parker fever has, has done its job and kind of built a little credibility and maybe a little patience with Cowboys fans that, okay, I'm ready to be hurt again. I mean, that's, that's the relationship between a fan and his team. So. So, yes, it was noticeable in 24, to a lesser extent, 25 because you had the new coach bump. But in 24, you get here and everybody's just like, yeah, I'm over this. I'm so good. How did you not fire McCarthy after the playoff game? And then they did nothing in that off season. And so the entire idea of coming to camp was actually sort of exhausting because I think most of us saw what was likely to happen yet ahead this one. And it's clearly the state of the league. But it's also this window of urgency, George, where people are now mostly agreeing that Dak Prescott is a big time quarterback, but not necessarily agreeing that he's the best of the best, because he's not. But there's this window when a guy turns 33 that you're like, okay, borrowed time here. We got 2026, 2027 and maybe 2028 to try to go do something special with this group that's right here, right now, at these ages. And it's not going to last forever. Dak will be 36 before we know it. You know, that will put CD Lamb like at 32 and that will put a lot of these guys closer to the edge of their window. Quinn and Williams will be older. Kenny Clark will be, you know, so now, now is your time to try to make some noise. And honestly, I like, I like how the roster looks in most spots right now, which even though you and I are definitely accused and guilty of being as optimistic as anyone with this team, at least on our radio station, I will try to convince myself that the quality of this roster is significantly better than it's been in recent years.
- [04:03]
B
Yeah, I would say the difference this year is a lot of years. I just, I look at it and I, you know, I try to follow it and hey, this player is interesting and sometimes that turns out to be demarvian overshone and he's a guy who does something for you. In the regular season last year, Flournoy had a really good training camp and he started to assert himself. So you can see things. I would say the difference this year is that I've almost had to talk myself into. Yeah, I think they're going to be pretty good. But this year in talk about the player rankings, which is an assignment that you give each off season, each training camp, that makes me sweat. But it's really, I think, informative and we'll get to that here in a bit. But this is, I don't have to like convince myself or try to convince someone else. Yeah, they're better. They're better at a lot of positions on defense that we'll talk about. I think this offense has a chance to be even better than they were last year and they need to be. There were some times where they weren't perfect last year and they need to be. I just, I do get a different feeling overall about this team.
- [05:20]
C
Well, there's a couple other things that are key to me. One is we don't have any real strong drama of, you know, hurt feelings or upset player or whatever the case may be. I mean, we can go Back almost every year and talk about, okay, Zeke is in Cabo. All right, well, Dak isn't thrilled. CDs holding in. Okay, well, this one, Micah, it wants to be traded. And, you know, just start going down the list of the annual California controversies or talking points. I mean, there are times where the state of the team address are all about one player who's upset with his money or their future or the team is trying to make an example out of him and explaining us the key, the pieces of the pie. Heck, there was a year not so long ago where they delayed the press conference because Jerry had to appear in court. And true, for a family person, no matter if you will, but. So there's usually some cowboy circus mixed in and there's none of that. And then there's also usually either a coach in peril or a real suspect cutting of the corner in the, in the leadership department. And what I mean by that is last year it appeared like the Jones family just grabbed Matt Eberfluss out of the break room and made him defensive coordinator when literally no one else was asking for that. And the year before, Mike Zimmer, you know, oftentime with coordinators or with important pieces in this organization, they almost talk the head coach into, well, what about this guy? Because he's worked well here before or. And it never felt like that is Garrett's idea or Schottenheimer's idea or McCarthy's idea. It almost feels like they were giving in in a conversation at dinner with Stephen and Jerry. Whereas the Christian Parker hire and frankly the Clayton Adams hire the year before, they both really feel like Brian Schottenheimer found somebody that he really wanted and they greenlit the idea of going to get that person. Yeah. And I love that.
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B
I do, too.
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C
And the fans should love that.
- [07:48]
B
Absolutely. And I think that says for those tuning in and listening for, okay, well, what have you guys seen at camp? The story is the defense. There is no doubt. It looks different in so many ways, from alignment to scheme and what they're trying to do and the players that are out there, it really jumps off the field to me. And we'll talk about individuals, but just overall, let's talk about the Christian Parker defense and what that looks like. And one thing you can plainly see in practice is, okay, looks like this is going to be pretty standard set against a three wide set. And they got nickel in. Oh, wait a minute. Right as the ball is snapped. It's a totally different look. Now the nickel corner could be. Caleb Downs is blitzing and you've got a guy coming from the other side of the field who is. I mean, they, in other words, they give you a lot of different looks at the snap of the ball. That's part of it, but it's also designed to make you earn every yard that you're about to try to gain as a, as an offense.
- [09:01]
C
Yeah. I get asked periodically to sort of try to explain what Christian Parker is doing and how is that different. And you know, we had fun with Dan Quinn and his defense, partly because for a big part of it you had Micah Parsons and DeMarcus Lawrence and that was really fun. But I don't, I don't want to say you can run any scheme with, with Micah Parsons or Miles Garrett, but, but you can get away with it because you have a double digit rolling out of bed sack guy who can make your scheme look great. Except the problems, of course, is the Cowboys got bullied on the ground and it wasn't. I disagree with the idea that Micah was a below average run defender because I don't think he ever was. But I do think that the Cowboys as a group put so much premium into rushing the passer that they had no ballast to stop the run. So, so what you're doing here with Christian Parker and the big Fangio defense is we. They're really emphasizing stop the run and earn the right to rush the passer on later down. So you hear that a lot. But okay, so how do you do it? And really the idea is with Fangio, lighter boxes, which means usually six bigs are on the field. So when people say three, four or four, three, if you add up those two numbers, you get seven. That's not the case. So we always talk about how nickel is now based in the NFL and there's reason for that. NFL teams run nickel. Five DBs, meaning there are only six bigs left. If you go to 11 defenders, if you got 12, you got too many, that's a flag. So, so you have a four two or a five one, or in some rare cases, a three three with three down linemen and three linebackers behind it. But usually it will be a four, two or a five. One is what you play up front when you have nickel. The Cowboys will always have nickel because they drafted Caleb Downs. I just don't think there's going to be any downs where he's healthy this year where they're like, he's not one of the 11 guys we want on the field. So if Caleb Downs is out there, he technically is not Going to be one of your two safeties? He could, but probably not. And he's not going to be one of your two corners. He's going to be that fifth db. Usually we would have a slot corner in Dallas. It would be Orlando Scandrek or somebody like that through the years. Duron Bland has done that, of course. But the Cowboys and the NFL are both moving more and more towards that is a safety, a box safety who plays essentially a linebacker almost type position, but at like £200. And the idea is to get speed, processing, you know, iq, all that. But also a guy who can defend anything. So he can defend a tight end, he can defend a slot receiver, he can defend a running back. Now we saw yesterday he tried to run with Kevonte Turpin. And as good as Caleb Downs is, there are going to still be mismatches. This is a freakish league, but if you can make that your seventh box defender. But also he can drop out of there and also he can blitz and so that you're trying to put uncertainty in your opponent. Cooper De Jean does this great in Philadelphia. They do the same thing with him. And you will find guys around the league who replicate this from. From Derwin James to Minka Fitzpatrick through the years. And you know, just guys who are sort of. They call them jokers because in the room the, the offense has to assume like a joker in a deck of cards. This, this can represent any, any of the positions. So just be ready. You know, he's the extra man behind that. They play a ton of zone. Not all. Philadelphia actually played more man last year than the Cowboys did, but it's a ton of zone. But here's the key. The Dallas Cowboys were 32nd last year in disguise. Now, disguise is measured simply as pre snap versus post snap. So imagine you're a quarterback and you're walking up to the line of scrimmage and you get under center and you start looking and you spot those safeties. That's the number one thing they ask quarterbacks to do is where are your safeties and what are they telling you? And The Cowboys were 32nd in the league. Fangio defenses are always near the top of. We are going to show you something and in the case of Fangio, it's almost. We're always going to show you shell. And shell means too high. Okay? That is shell coverage or a two shell. They call it a number of very similar things. But they're going to start in too high and they may stay there. They run a ton of. They Almost run zero, cover two, but a ton of COVID four. Cover six, which is quarter, quarter, half. Cover four, of course is quarters and they can cover nine. There are a number of different things they can do. The, the general point though is they will rotate out of that two shell into something completely different. And what. The reason this happened, not to get too far into the weeds, George, but the reason this happens is Shanahan and McVay. Yeah. So Shanahan and McVeigh about a decade ago put in what many consider a very basic offense and obviously they didn't. I mean, Shanahan's dad actually is thought of as one of the first to kind of use outside zone with play action rollouts the other way and kind of marrying the run in the pass in such a way it causes fits for defenses. So the way to counter a play action offense is fuzzy up your disguises and try to make them wrong. So real quick, a play action fake from under center. So you're. You're my quarterback, George. Okay, so you're facing the safeties now. You need to do a play action fake.
- [15:19]
B
Am I going to open up left or open up right?
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C
Right. But here's the quote.
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B
Okay.
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C
You pick, you pick. But when you do that, when you are doing the play action fake, you got Tony Dorset behind you, right?
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B
Oh, man, that's great.
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C
You're going to go back there and you're going to do what? Where's your eyes?
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B
As I look back at Tony Dorset.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Are you looking right at. I'm looking right at him. So looking away from the defense.
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C
So can you see the safeties?
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B
No.
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C
Okay, so now I'm faking it. Now I turn back around and the safeties aren't where I left them.
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B
Yeah.
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C
So that's the entire idea.
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B
Take away the effectiveness of the play action.
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C
Like when you snap the ball, I bet you most quarterbacks are like, okay, I know what I'm getting here. I know what I want to do. And then they turn their back and now they turn back again to look back at the safeties. And now it's single high and where'd that other. Oh, the safety's cutting off the dig route and that's how interceptions happen. Yeah, it happened.
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B
They can make you look really bad.
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C
Yes. And so you get. Now there are quarterbacks that have seen everything, that know your tricks and they're, they're, they're smart too. I mean, Matthew Stafford, he's seen some things. Okay. But, but they're showing this.
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B
We know that in this situation, a Lot of times they will switch to that.
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C
Yes. And so the Cowboys in 2025, not to revisit that train wreck, but. But we have to. And they were 32nd in the league in disguise, which means every time you looked at them pre snap, that's exactly what they were doing.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Like, they were so simple.
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B
Sitting ducks.
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C
They were so simple. And part of the reason they'll tell you they were simple is because when we tried to get complicated, couldn't do it. We beat ourselves because nobody's guarding this guy and what's going on here and who. I thought you had him. So they could not communicate. So when you hear about, boy, we got to all be on the same page. We got to communicate because if you're going to be complicated and try to fool the offense, you better all be on the same page so you don't fool yourself. Yeah, so. So that's the idea is disguise. Light boxes, positionless football. So you want a lot of hybrids, you want safeties who can cover. You want corners who can tackle. You want guys who can do different things, not one dimensional. And if you can do all of that and you got some dudes now, you. You've built a defense that suppresses explosive plays, generates takeaways, and is just not that fun to play against, which we've seen in Philadelphia for a couple years now since Fangio got there. Yeah, I guess he. He. Him and Christian Parker got there in the spring of 24, and they went right to the super bowl and won. And then last year, their defense was really pretty solid again, and that got Parker this job.
- [18:06]
B
Well, and it's one thing that you can have all sorts of crazy schemes and a new coaching staff, which they do on the defensive side of the ball, but you got to have dudes, and the dudes look so much better on that side of the ball, just on paper. And now we've had a chance to see him in person. You're talking six new starters. I know Kobe Durant has jumped off to you. I've seen you make some plays. That's a guy the Cowboys got from the Rams this off season. And I remember when they signed him, I thought, wow, that's a. That's a really good signing that will help them. At corner, Jalen Thompson looks like a dude who they signed in free agency from Arizona. Rashawn Gary, I know he. He took some heed that he wasn't going to be worth the. The money that maybe he was making and that he was going to make, but, man, he's better than anything else the Cowboys had on the edge last year after Parsons got traded.
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C
No doubt. And that's. You know, again, he's not Michael Parsons. Rashawn Gary will probably tell you he's not Michael Parsons, but that. That's not what he's being brought here to be. He's being brought here to be a piece of a very stout front. And I think Jalen Thompson is worth circling back on just a little bit, because I do think they had him earmarked for the Caleb Downs role in the event they couldn't get Caleb Downs on draft day, which is the hybrid nickel safety.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Who can play deep, but he's actually better the closer you get him to the ball. So I think there will be times this year when they're both healthy that they'll mess with the defenses by dropping Caleb back and sneaking Jalen up there. And I think most offenses will say, oh, Caleb's deep. Okay, we're good. And then they got Jalen Thompson doing some crazy stuff down there, because at Arizona, he was. He was one of those guys where you would say, okay, nickel. You know, kind of that star position, kind of that nickel safety. Could Jalen Thompson be the answer to what we need? And I think the Cowboys felt like we better cover ourselves in case we don't get. We get the guy we want. And I remember. I think I pitched you on football friends. Should we be sniffing around on Minka Fitzpatrick? And, you know, I love Minka, but he is pretty high miles on the odometer. He would have been better than Marquis Bell.
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B
Yeah.
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C
But at the same time, they said, well, why don't we just go get the kid from Ohio State? He's got zero miles on his odometer. That sounds amazing. So I think the Jalen Thompson thing gives them really good insurance for injury, but also multiplicity. If everybody's out there where you got a couple safeties that are really nice, movable chess pieces that can work off each other.
- [20:56]
B
Yeah. I've been around so long that I remember Michael Irvin as a rookie on this very field. As a matter of fact, as they came. The Cowboys came up to Oxnard to scrimmage the Raiders. I remember when Russell Maryland stepped on the field for the first time as a rookie. And Emmett Smith.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And guys just, wow. Okay, that guy is something. And look, I don't claim to be an NFL veteran or anything like that, but Caleb Downs, all you got to do is just jump, watch five minutes, and you go, who's 13? Because if you Just dropped in here to this camp. You'd go, okay, who's 13, third year pro?
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C
Yeah.
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B
No, he is a rookie. And we'll get into a discussion about how they're going to use him in the preseason, but I just want to talk about players that I've noticed.
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C
Okay.
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B
Obviously, that's the obvious one. You come out here.
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C
Yep.
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B
I like what you had to say about Kobe Durant. Devin Moore really has jumped off to me. He's the fourth round pick from Florida. I don't know where he is in this rotation, but doggone, he's better than anything else I saw on the out there for the Cowboys.
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C
He's a big corner.
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B
Really like the way he's. He's physical. Jayson Barham is maybe the story of training camp on the defensive side. I've noticed him, but I've talked to some people and said, man, he is. He's ready to do some things and he's really going to help us.
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C
Yes.
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B
In other words, this rookie Class I Malachi Lawrence has shown well. It looks like they've hit on guys we'll see in the preseason and certainly when the real stuff starts, but, man, they made a concerted effort. They've got input from new defensive coaches who say, no, this is what we're looking for. And you just. Yesterday I was on the sidelines standing next to the defensive guys who were out of 11 on 11, and just looking around. The eyeball test is much better than that unit last year.
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C
I agree. Yeah, yeah, it's. I feel like the assembly of. Of pieces really followed a strict plan this year. Like, they're. They are looking for a certain type of guy who can offer a certain type of things, and it's just so invigorating. It just feels like a real smart plan has been enacted on this defense in particular, to try to put the right pieces out there and do it in a way that your resources can sort of COVID your need list, your shopping list. So they couldn't get crazy now, you know, if you wanted to say, what would you have loved to see even more? Yeah, there's no doubt if Max Crosby was standing out there right now or, you know, even Jordan Brooks. If they could have got him out of Miami, that would have been awesome. But the resources either of them would have required would have been another salary in the 25 to 30 million dollars range. And I just don't know. With George Pickens future uncertain, I don't know that I want to give my George Pickens money to anybody, but George Pickens right now? Yeah, he's 25 and he just, just had 1500 yards or whatever he had and like a dozen touchdowns. And, and I am not necessarily ready to walk away from him at the end of this season. And therefore, if I had Max Crosby, if I add Jordan Brooks, I'm probably making that decision already and I don't want to. So I'm going to be a little stubborn about that idea. I'm going to say Max Crosby's ship sailed a little bit when they went and got Rashawn Gary at a lesser price. And, and, and maybe you're getting a lesser player. You probably are. But I just think, I think there's been some real common sense in roster building in the last 12 to 18 months. And I think you hit it those second, third and fourth round picks, maybe even the late first and Malachi Lawrence. But if you start looking at the list of guys from this draft class and you start to say, okay, do I feel great about, you know, Barham, do I feel great about Devin Moore and LT Overton? And heck, my 5th rounder was used for Dee Winters. He's a veteran, of course. But I sent my 5th round pick to go get Dee Winters. And you start looking at those pieces. All four of them are defensive pieces. If you throw in Malachi Lawrence, that's five. So Lawrence, Barum, Devin Moore, Overton, DE Winters, five dudes who are all capable. I don't have, I don't have any of them as a starter right now. Maybe DE Winters. I'm trying to figure out that second linebacker situation. Probably DE Winters. But all five of them are just quality pieces that I'm not asking to start right away, that I have in reserve if I have some attrition, which I always will. That's so exciting.
- [26:08]
B
Yeah.
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C
Do you know some of the guys we've had to push onto the field in the last couple of years when injuries hit? Yeah, it is literally get him off his couch and get him over here.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And dude, they started. I want to say they started eight different corners last year.
- [26:23]
B
That sounds about right.
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C
I challenge any football friends P1 to list eight cowboy corners right now. Like from last season. You can name all eight who started. You certainly deserve some Muellers Merchant. But I mean, that's, that's a, that's a real, real brain tease. That one is who. Nobody can name. Eight Cowboy corners from last year's team.
- [26:46]
B
There's no way. And some of those guys aren't on this roster, so. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. They had to switch that out. So defense, certainly this the story of, of, of camp to this point and the new look and there is hope on that side. Offensively, can you take the next step? As good as the Cowboys were last year in production, they were not good in converting it into touchdowns. They were 16th in touchdown percentage in the red zone. That's not good enough. No, believe it or not, there were teams like Seattle in New England that were worse than that last year. But they were really good on the defensive side of the ball. So that has been a point of emphasis. That's another thing I've noticed in camp in this first week, Cowboys in the red zone, man, they put on a clinic between CD Pickens, Ferguson, Flournoy and four still pretty darn good. As someone said to me yesterday on the sideline, keeping on that four, he's. He looks like he's a pretty good player. Sometimes we take it for granted because of his lack of success in the postseason, but I think this offense is capable of taking that next step because it looks like they've said it publicly now. Tyler Guyton is the starting left tackle and he's had a great off season. I think they are trying to pump him up a little bit, but I see the arrow pointed up for the offense, too.
- [28:16]
C
Yeah, well, they, they need that left tackle to come through. There's no doubt about it. That's. That's an incredibly important situation for them.
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B
And
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C
that's one of my two real big. I don't want to say concern. Well, yeah, it is a concern. Left tackle is a concern because I
- [28:36]
B
don't want to mess with my left guard and put him out there.
- [28:38]
C
And what do I do if I lose Javante Williams for a month?
- [28:42]
B
Well, that was my other thing. You're going to be in trouble because he is so dependable, so consistent. But I got to tell you, Bob, in my first week out here, every time I look up, Jaden Blue is running down the sideline, carrying the football either on a run or screen or a little swing pass. They say that that, come to Jesus, that he had with the offensive coaches last year has, has made a difference and
- [29:14]
C
he's ready to be.
- [29:14]
B
I think he's got. Yes. And we'll see. You know, he's got to show it. He had a problem at Texas hanging onto the ball.
- [29:22]
C
Yeah.
- [29:22]
B
But there's no doubt he's the fastest guy in that backfield. And if you got a home run hitter now, a guy who is, you know, just a little bit of a change up from from what Javante is, man, you. You may have a new weapon on this team.
- [29:39]
C
Yeah, I think. I think you're right. I think the key with Jaden Blue is going to be when you don't have the ball, can you help us on the field? Because the last thing you want, of course, is a guy who, when he checks into the game, everybody knows, well, this plays obviously for him because they don't want him blocking. They don't want him doing any of these other things that, you know, limit his versatility. The thing about Javante Williams that makes him so incredibly valuable is, well, there's several things, but the biggest one from this conversation is he's so versatile that you can kind of ask him to do anything you would ask a running back to do. And that is kind of what separates him from all of his backups. So when I continue to repeat that, I don't think they're prepared to deal with the Javante Williams injury. It's purely. They don't have another versatile running back. They have some guys who can do A and B, but not C and D. Yeah. And guys who can do C and D but not A and B. And I think Jaden Blue is in that conversation just because he's small. And, you know, this is a tough league when linebackers are trying to get to the quarterback and you got to stand in front of that truck, physics takes over.
- [30:59]
B
Yeah.
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C
And so, you know, you can try. Yeah. But if you're 180 and you're trying to block 215 or 220 at a full sprint, it goes poorly, usually. And that's why Javante is so valuable. But that's also why Javante was dead by Thanksgiving, is because they're asking him to take 55 snaps out of 55 because they don't trust anybody else. And so that's why I thought part of the plan was get a trustworthy backup. But they are like, no, we drafted Blue and we drafted Mafa, and we think both of them are players in this league very different. I mean, there's like a 50 pound difference between them. Yeah, but. But they think that they have the solutions on hand. And so this will be one of the many preseason questions to figure out.
- [31:47]
B
All right, let's go this direction Next. Bob does this every year. He ranks the roster. And I don't know if we'll go 1 through 60, but we'll give you our top 10 next. And we could have controversy next. In football, friends, you didn't start a business Just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday.
- [32:08]
C
You're here to win.
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B
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C
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B
just one tapping ridiculously fast acting sky
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C
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B
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- [32:33]
A
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- [33:04]
B
okay, Bob, how many years in a row have you done this where you've ranked the roster and then you've gotten your friends to rank it along with you?
- [33:11]
C
Yeah, 2024 was the first time I did it. So this is the third annual roster ranking.
- [33:17]
B
Georgie, do you get mine every year and just laugh and go, God, what has George done this year?
- [33:22]
C
No, you're a very valuable voting member. Without you, I don't have the guts to assemble this type of project. See, I, I think it's way more valuable. Even though I'm, I'm as narcissistic as the next guy. It's way more valuable to have multiple cooks in the kitchen for this sort of thing because I get ideas, I get agendas, I've got takes to defend that. I might subconsciously rank somebody higher to sort of support my biases. So I got you and I got a bunch of our writer friends like John Machota and Joseph Hoyt and Saad Yousef.
- [34:01]
B
See, I trust those guys a lot more than I trust myself. Well, really do.
- [34:04]
C
But you're important. You're the big man.
- [34:06]
B
Well, I don't know. I, I always feel pretty good about my, my top 20 or top 25 after that. I, I'm not going to deny that I may flip a coin.
- [34:16]
C
Well, that's. And that's fine. And so the exercise and people can do this at home if they would like to, if they're a real football sicko. You can do this too, where you just take the roster, even the training camp roster. There are 90 names and rank them one to 60. So obviously you got 30 cuts. Now, 60 is not the number. 53 is the number. But with injuries and with the practice squad, I just get out to 60 to see basically who's on the bubble to make the roster. And then how do you line them up? I just say line them up as if the best example is, let's say there's an expansion draft and you can only protect one player. Who are you protecting?
- [34:57]
B
Well, that's a good way to look at it.
- [34:59]
C
Okay, and then, and then we'll drop it down to five. Okay. You can only protect five cowboys that you are keeping. Doesn't matter. Their age shouldn't even matter, their contract that much. And we try to leave just positional value. So we're not just putting all the quarterbacks and left tackles and wide receivers up top. We're trying to actually identify the best, let's say 12 football players. Okay, now do the best 14. And you just, you're just lining them up like you would in middle school and from this side to the other side. Best. My most valuable piece to my 60th most valuable piece.
- [35:33]
B
It's an interesting drill and I, I know I have a controversial one in my top 10. Okay, I'll give you my top 10. The guy I would protect first is CD Lamb. I think he's the best, best player on this team. He's the most explosive player on this team. If it had been a couple of years ago, I would have made it Quinn and Williams, but I have CD Number one.
- [35:54]
C
The panel agrees with you. The panel put him at number one. I put him at number two. But, but there's nothing at all wrong with CD Lam being your very best football player on this roster.
- [36:07]
B
Who's your number one?
- [36:08]
C
My number one is Dak Prescott.
- [36:10]
B
Okay.
- [36:10]
C
And, and you know, last year I think I had him at number three. I think I went Micah, CD and then Dak, maybe four. I'm trying to remember. But Dak has had some years where you're like, you know what? This guy is absolutely what I need him to be. And I just thought in 2025, he took such strides of leadership, ownership of this thing. He's really made it his. And, and his, his pre snap and post snap intelligence is as high as it's been. And I also think his body is still healthy enough. We always talk about the merger. So, you know, basically build a slanted line from the low part as a rookie is your football IQ to the high part when you retire. You've seen every defense, right? And then the opposite is A decline of athleticism or your body's health. And that starts at its highest when you're a rookie, and it drops to its lowest by the time you have to retire, often because of injury. So that intersection where your IQ has risen to as high as it can go and your health is still really high, that intersection doesn't last long, but we call that a quarterback's prime.
- [37:27]
B
Yeah.
- [37:27]
C
In fact, when the light went on for Romo and his body started failing almost the same time. Yeah, he had some good years.
- [37:35]
B
I don't mean back. Started giving him trouble. And the best planted in Seattle.
- [37:39]
C
Yes. The best intelligence version of Tony Romo, though, was 2014, and that was like the last healthy season he had. And so if we can squeeze three to five years out of Dak, where he's in that intersection and his body's still real strong, but his brain is bigger than it's ever been, I think that's where you get really excited. So I put Dak at 1.
- [38:00]
B
I had CD Lamb 2. I have Tyler Smith. I almost put him one because I think he's the best player at his position in this league, or at least in the conversation. And I think he has leadership on this team. And he's just. I don't know, maybe. Maybe I'm swayed with just what a good dude he is. But, yeah, I've got him second.
- [38:21]
C
I had him fourth. And when you're this high in the conversation, I think one through four, every one of the guys could be. You could make a case that they're the best. And I think that there are times in their career or there will be times in their career where they are the best player on their roster. So I've got no problem with Tyler Smith. Very high. I put him fourth. My second was CD So I went Dak, CD and then Quinn and Williams.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah, that's what I have as my number three. And he's still so good in this league. And you made the point this week out here that, heck, he's 28, so it's. It's not as if he is, you know, a gray beard.
- [39:04]
C
Right.
- [39:06]
B
We didn't really get to see what he can do last year because it was such a mess on the defensive side that we didn't get to see what I think we're going to see this year.
- [39:17]
C
I agree. And I think, you know, to a lesser extent, you can say the same about Kenny Clark, because Kenny Clark has never been to Oxnard. This is his first training camp. So, you know these guys. If you Want them to be leaders, and you want them to be the movers and shakers on the defensive line. You got to. You got to get the full year. You got to get them up to speed where not everything. They're trying to get their family settled in a work week, and then they got to get out to the field and play on Sunday. And I. I just think we don't realize how good Quinn and Williams is yet. He is unbelievably great, and I think this scheme is going to be perfect for him. So I think you absolutely could have put him number one as well.
- [40:00]
B
And then I have at number five, George Pickens. I'm sorry, I just think he is right behind CD Lamb. And you've got them both on your team, and that's. That's pretty lethal, the fact that you have two receivers like that.
- [40:16]
C
Yeah, I think you and I have five and six identif. Because I see we both went George Pickens, five and Tyler Booker, six.
- [40:23]
B
And I had Booker in my top. I think I had him in my top 10 last year. I just love him. I just. Man, the Cowboys are loaded at guards. When you have Booker and Tyler Smith, I mean, that is. That is amazing. And that's a guy whose arrow is pointed up.
- [40:43]
C
Yeah.
- [40:43]
B
I wonder.
- [40:45]
C
I wonder at what point of the season I'll want to have put Caleb Downs in front of Tyler Booker, though. That's. That's the interesting one with me, is I'm obviously not there yet. I'm going to see. Need to see one game. But. But do I. So one through five, almost identical on everyone's ballot. Dax, C.D. quinn and Tyler Smith and George Pickens in some order. Yeah, you know, but. But those are your top five players. And then there's a tier shift. And the next tier does appear to be Tyler Booker and Caleb Downs on some level. And Brandon Aubrey, if. If you have them that high.
- [41:24]
B
Well, I unfortunately do. I'm going to get yelled at probably from all the. Not. Not necessarily from you, but I got yelled at last year because I didn't put him in the top 10 by some other people. So I put him seventh just because Brandon Aubrey, because he is a lethal weapon. And I know it wasn't as accurate beyond 50 as the season you know, drew to a close last year. But he's such a weapon. He's so accurate, historically accurate from long distance. And to me, there's. There's great value. And how about this? He could be even more valuable this year if this team could get some stinking Turnovers and especially at the end of a half and line him up for a 65 yarder that could go through.
- [42:10]
C
Yes, he's a great kicker. I just want to.
- [42:15]
B
I have a bias towards special teamers.
- [42:17]
C
Well, and there's nothing wrong with that. Special teams are very important. I just, I would just ask the question, can Brandon Aubrey take me from a good team and make me a very good team or a great team? Like, does he decide. Does he decide games? And I realize he actually makes the kick that does decide games.
- [42:35]
B
Have the best kicker in the NFL and you could be a bad team.
- [42:38]
C
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. And then I also saw this last season and this does bother me, even though I do think this is a really good coaching staff is I do think you begin to alter your offense to secure field goals. I don't. You know, when you look at their red zone deficiency, that may not apply, but they love to know that Brandon Aubrey can hit from 60. And I do wonder if it's third and 12 and you're right on the edge of the 60, do you call like a run play to get your kicker a few more yards or are you actually still trying to move the chains because you have George Pickens and CD Lamb? Like, shouldn't you always be trying to score touchdowns? And does having one of the best kickers almost make you protect? Maybe protect par by not getting crazy on your birdie putt?
- [43:34]
B
Maybe. But sometimes, maybe you go for birdie when you're at say and right now it's a 48 yard field goal. So you don't feel as bad about a sack. If I do take a sack and I'm going to try to hit something downfield.
- [43:47]
C
Yeah.
- [43:48]
B
I still know I can make a 59 yarder.
- [43:51]
C
Well, I mean, according to your list, you would put Brandon Aubrey in front of Caleb Downs.
- [43:57]
B
Well, at least you may need the game.
- [43:59]
C
You may need to go out to the practice field and apologize to Caleb to.
- [44:02]
B
I probably will. And I just. We haven't seen the guy play, but he's a top 10 player on this roster. I don't think there's any question he jumps right in. He's young. Yeah, but man, he's, he's just as you made the point today we were talking about, if you're amazing at Alabama and Nick Saban swears that maybe he's the best freshman he's ever coached and then you go do the same thing at Ohio State, right. And you have all these coaches here saying, oh, man, he's just different. He's. Yeah, he's. I can't wait to watch him play in meaningful games this year. And I think he will, he will make them more meaningful because he's going to make some plays.
- [44:45]
A
Yeah.
- [44:45]
C
And you know what, we had this conversation back in the spring that I was a little nervous how we were pumping his tires so full of hope and change that we might be doing a disservice to Caleb Downs. And that's all true. I'm still so, I'm still right there. But I just want people to understand that when we get crazy about Caleb Downs, here's where we're coming from. We've watched 25 years of this team completely act like safety is just like a sign up sheet on the front, on the door of you know, who wants to play safety because we're not going to spend any capital on it. We're not going to give you a contract. We're not going to build our scheme around you. We haven't had a safety since Darren Woodson. Yeah. And I don't.
- [45:34]
B
That's the last one. You actually invested some draft capital, right?
- [45:37]
C
Roy Williams. Roy Williams.
- [45:39]
B
Yeah.
- [45:39]
C
But, but when you start looking at the guys through the years and God bless Barry Church and Gerald Sensiba and freaking Lynn Scott and Jeff Heath and just going down the list of all the dudes we've seen play safety around here all the way to Donovan Wilson last year, I just, I just want to say I am so thrilled that they have gone to go get one of these safeties because man, when you watch the NFL outside of Dallas, how many teams who are awesome have awesome safeties. Like we can do this all day. We can do Brian Dawkins here and Ed Reed here and go all the way back to frickin Steve Atwater and Leroy Butler. But you can then pull it forward to like I said, Minka Fitzpatrick and Derwin James and who's Hamilton there in Baltimore and you just start going down the list of the best defenses, have these awesome high iq ball hawk, awesome safeties and we freaking got one finally. And it's just, it's a delight. So I don't want to promise everybody that it's going to be interception and a sack every game from this kid because that's way too much to I ask of any safety, let alone a rookie. But I think it is going to be transformative and I, and I do think we're going to look at that pick for quite a while and say how did he get to 11.
- [47:11]
B
Can't wait to watch him play. And here's another offensive lineman I have in the top 10, Cooper Beebe at number nine. And then Javante Williams rounds out my top 10 at number 10. I have three linemen in the top 10. Which is why, man, if Guyton has taken a step forward and Steele can hold it together, they remain relatively healthy. This offensive line could be just terrific.
- [47:35]
C
Yeah. And then my 8, 9 and 10 look like Kenny Clark, Rashawn Gary and Jake Ferguson, which I have them right
- [47:45]
B
out of the top 10. So right there with you.
- [47:47]
C
Yeah. And you know what? I have Javante Williams too low. I have him at 15th. And he's one of those guys that when you do talk to cowboy people, like, especially if you're off air and you start talking to them about Javante Williams, man, they are like you don't understand. Almost like Kenny Clark on the defense, like you don't understand what he means in that room.
- [48:08]
B
Yeah.
- [48:09]
C
In terms of tone setting, in terms of, hey guys, follow me. I, you know, and that if you have a running back who is a dog, there's a value in that that is tough to measure. But you, you just don't want your running back to be a guy who reads the Wall street journal and gets his nails done. You, you want a guy who's leading the charge into the street fight. And that's Javante Williams.
- [48:36]
B
Yeah.
- [48:36]
C
So. So I, I love him. We got to keep him healthy. The last year was the best year of his career by a pretty good margin. And if he can keep rolling those out, he got his three year deal. Love that. It's actually a really good number for the Cowboys too. So happy he got paid, but also happy they didn't get crazy. And so I think Javante is a great way to end your top 10.
- [48:58]
B
So see nothing but flowers out here from Cowboys training camp in Oxnard, California. There is something that I won't say it's a shadow over the training camp, but it is an interesting story and it has to do with espionage. And we're going to talk about that next. You didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday.
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C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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A
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- [50:19]
B
Football friends from Oxnard, California and Cowboys training camp and we should say this before we have this discussion. Coaches are paranoid. Yes, football coaches are paranoid. And I've been around some before at the college ranks who just knew that as they were practicing before we had the worlds of indoor facilities and practice fields. A lot of times you would practice on your field and in the stands, there would be someone that the coach didn't know and he would get one of his equipment guys to run up and say, find out who that is. I bet he's a spy. And they always thought they were being spied on or who's that guy hovering around the practice facility? And who is that guy?
- [51:07]
C
So why did George Allen buy a house in Valley Ranch?
- [51:11]
B
Right. Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff, you know, it's just. Yeah.
- [51:15]
C
Was that true?
- [51:17]
B
No, because that timeline doesn't match up because he was 70s and Valley Ranch didn't open until 85.
- [51:23]
C
I think I want it to be true.
- [51:25]
B
No, but there were, there were claims that, I think there were buildings around the Cowboys old practice field on Forest.
- [51:35]
C
Yeah.
- [51:36]
B
You know, that, you know, the Eagles or someone, you know had a, had a spy. It's. There's Spygate in New England. Anyway, so out here is. As you try to consume Cowboys training camp, no doubt you've watched some video on social media that's put out by guys who cover the Cowboys, who write for the Dallas Morning News or the Athletic or whoever it is. And they're out here covering camp and it's content for them. And I gotta tell you, as someone who tries to consume as much about the Cowboys, I watch it. And before we got out here at camp, I watched a lot of their highlights and thought, oh, that's an interesting play.
- [52:15]
C
And yeah.
- [52:17]
B
So you could see why if you're a coach of this team. And by the way, the practice fields here at Oxnard, they're surrounded by stands and then the one end of the practice facility, there are condominiums and apartments that overlook the Practice field.
- [52:34]
C
That's right.
- [52:34]
B
So if Philly wanted to, they could buy one of those or rent one of them for the summer. Anyway, so you're putting this content out on online, and there was a discussion between the Cowboys and those who were doing that this week of that needs to stop. And for. What I have learned is that when Christian Parker got here, he informed Brian Schottenheimer, hey, man, when I was in Philly, we watched a lot of your stuff from training camp.
- [53:06]
C
Yeah.
- [53:08]
B
Because your writers are up putting plays, and, you know, sometimes we took it from in the stands and whatever. So all of a sudden, about midway through the week, the edict was put out. No more. Well, the writers threw a fit. Some of them did.
- [53:23]
C
Yeah.
- [53:24]
B
And it's part of their job. And they. It's popular. I don't have the stats in front of me. I bet they get a lot of clicks on it. Right. And then the PR department talked to him about it, and they took to their complaints and understood that. And then understanding that this is a coach's edict of, hey, that's enough of that. We're trying to win a football game here. Jerry was consulted about this, and his answer was, it's fine. Let him do it.
- [53:57]
C
Right.
- [53:57]
B
So now they're packing and doing it. I don't know what I think about it. I do think that I wonder what Brian Schottenheimer's reaction to it was when he learned, wait, we're still doing that?
- [54:10]
C
Yeah.
- [54:11]
B
It does kind of show that there's one guy in charge. I was going to say, and he's more thrilled with, hey, I don't mind coverage of my team. I don't care who's doing it.
- [54:19]
C
Yeah. And this goes back to the ultimate question of would anybody take the Cowboys coaching job, or do you have to be a certain type of guy to take the Cowboys coaching job? And I think we have said properly that there are certain coaches, and I know Bill Cower has said it, and I'm trying to remember who else, that they just would not be interested in working under these circumstances. And what are you talking about, circumstances? Well, the circumstances are that at any point, in many NFL markets, at any point, if the head coach feels a certain way about a certain thing, he can get it done because he's the head coach. And. And here it's just not like that. Here, a head coach only has about 90% of the power of a normal head coach.
- [55:07]
B
Yeah.
- [55:07]
C
And. And the other 10% is.
- [55:12]
B
It's. It's.
- [55:13]
C
It's very flexible because you Never know when it's going to be used that other 10%. But just, just be aware that if you want to bench a certain player or cut a certain player or enact a certain policy or just, you know, no phones in the locker room or whatever you want to say, no ping pong tables in my locker room, whatever you want to say about your team. That would work if you were a college coach, a high school coach, or an NFL coach in, like, 25 cities. That may not be true here. And so that can, that can mean a million things. That can mean, are we doing Hard Knocks this year? That could mean, you know, just all manner of things where a head coach says not doing it. And Dan Campbell probably has that autonomy in Detroit, you know, Matt LaFleur probably has that autonomy in Green Bay. And you just start going down the list of, Ben Johnson can absolutely say what he wants, whatever he wants. And so those guys can do that. Where? No, there's no more videos online during my practices. There's just not. And in fact, if you push back on this, we'll get all the media out of here, too. And you can show up as, as a fan. Unless we spot you and then we're kicking you out of there, too. You know, so there's a number of. Heck, there's nothing that says NFL teams have to have open training camps.
- [56:40]
B
No, they do it for marketing. Marketing.
- [56:43]
C
They do it to grow the brand. And should we ever confuse how important growing the brand is to the ownership family of this franchise, I think we know the answer there. So. So yes to Hard Knocks, yes to literally anybody that wants to give our franchise publicity, if Netflix wants to build something around our cheerleaders, if, you know, just whatever the case is, we are open for your free marketing.
- [57:13]
B
It does make me wonder, though, do teams, obviously the Eagles invested on, hey, put some guy that just joined the staff and his job is to go through YouTube and see what's up there.
- [57:24]
C
Yeah.
- [57:24]
B
Or go through X or, you know, Instagram, whatever it's on. But it also makes me wonder, do teams spy? Do they spy to the point of, yeah, I got a guy in Dallas who lives in Frisco.
- [57:40]
C
Yeah.
- [57:41]
B
And works for whatever the company is that overlooks the Cowboys. And has it gotten so far that when the Cowboys go back home or when they're out here, when they're on an open field, do they feel restricted as to what they can run? To all the stuff that they're going to run. That's different for a given game, do they have to run it inside the Ford center and not on the natural grass.
- [58:02]
C
And that's so crazy. I mean, to people that are listening to us that don't know what George is referencing. Their full time practice facility is surrounded by office space that the team leases out to companies that were willing to pay the rent to have an office that overlooks the Cowboys practice facility, which again, is about as crazy as you can get. Now I'm positive you can jack the rent up to whatever you want. For a law firm or a real estate company to say, yeah, we want an office where we can show our people that there is an NFL team, not just any NFL team. The Dallas Thinking Cowboys practice right outside my office. And all through the season, as they're prepping for games, big games, could be playoff games. Yeah, these guys can just look out their windows. I don't even think they're. They have to pull their shades at a certain time. I think you, you know, that's part of paying the Cowboys for office space. And so most coaches who took a
- [59:05]
B
visit to the facility, we go, wait a minute, this is where we practice?
- [59:09]
C
Yeah, no, exactly.
- [59:11]
B
Like, can we build a wall?
- [59:13]
C
Seriously? And you know, sometimes coaches get carried away with how secure every idea has to be because in the end it is blocking and tackling and blah, blah, blah. But, man, these are secrets. And if you're asking, is there cheating in the NFL and we go back to, you know, Belichick and Spygate and we go to look at the Houston Astros, you know, and their, their methods of cheating and every sport. Yeah, of course. Everybody's looking for an edge, especially against their rivals.
- [59:40]
B
Yes.
- [59:42]
C
What was.
- [59:43]
B
But how far would you be willing to go? Would you be willing to go as far as, hey, I got a call from a guy who says he works for Company X and he's a huge Eagles fan and he's sending this video if we want it. Man, it's highly legal, I would think. Yeah, it is, right?
- [60:01]
C
I would imagine. For sure.
- [60:02]
B
But the NFL would have a problem with that. But.
- [60:04]
C
But if I'm playing in a division with three other teams that are trying to destroy me and I got to play them twice, I'm definitely sending some college kid to each training camp to basically cover it for our team, right?
- [60:17]
B
Yeah, I think so.
- [60:18]
C
And we're disavowing that we know him. If he ever gets caught.
- [60:21]
B
It's a very small part of it. But again, it's. There's a zillion things that go into football season. That's why we have hard knocks yes. It's why we have 100 people out here covering Cowboys camp because it's really fascinating.
- [60:34]
C
But I do want to circle back and say I kind of don't get why the Cowboys are okay with every media member tweeting out every play.
- [60:48]
B
I don't either.
- [60:49]
C
Like, I. You try to. You try to think through the. The relative benefits and. And, you know, ramifications of such a thing. And you say, well, is it that big a deal?
- [61:03]
B
Yeah.
- [61:03]
C
I mean, yeah, I don't necessarily need my rivals to know this position battle or the guys we're thinking of cutting or the. The. The sets we are working on and running. I don't want that getting out. So why would I let it be tweeted out for free? Heck, if I didn't care at all, why wouldn't I just broadcast practice from. From incredible angles so my fans can just watch on Dallas Cowboys.com every day? Well, we don't do that because we don't want that information getting out there.
- [61:34]
B
Okay, what are. What are the restrictions for? We watch NFL Network and ESPN when they go from training camp to training camp, and sometimes, hey, this is live action right now in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. I don't know. Is there restrictions on that? What can they show?
- [61:51]
C
I think usually it's one on one on one on ones and things that are not necessarily 11 on 11, but I'm sure they show some of that stuff. And maybe none of this matters, but I always wonder as I look at my timeline during a Cowboys training camp practice, and it is just. It's 15 angles of the same play.
- [62:13]
B
Yeah.
- [62:14]
C
And you just ask yourself, if I was the team and if I was the head coach, would I be cool with this? And maybe more importantly, could I stop it if I wanted to? Because my boss apparently doesn't care at all. Which then circles back to what we were talking about last night at dinner. Well, what if you tried something for 30 years and it wasn't working? Would you try to change it up and see if you found that 1% that's keeping you from success? Is this that? Probably not, but it's a really interesting conversation.
- [62:46]
B
It is. And I do. I think if you're looking at winning, which is supposed to be the name
- [62:51]
C
of the game, we'd like to think.
- [62:53]
B
I knew a coach that once said, unless it has something to do with me winning on Saturday, I don't want to hear about it.
- [62:59]
C
Right.
- [62:59]
B
And I'd like to see that attitude around here, and I don't think it exists. But I Wonder, you know, I think a lot of NFL teams probably going, yeah, okay, It's. It's part of this. This circus that we're in.
- [63:12]
C
Yeah.
- [63:13]
B
It's not just Dallas that has that kind of coverage now.
- [63:16]
C
I will say, a big part of what I enjoy is the loosening of the security of this entire operation. And let me explain real fast. Twenty years ago, the concept of a guy like me or George having access to all 22 was impossible.
- [63:40]
B
Yeah.
- [63:40]
C
And then a couple years later, I discovered this black market where you could get all 22, but not from legal means. You know, not anybody could do it. You had to establish ways to do it that were a little bit. A little bit wonky. And by 2015 or so, the NFL just said, screw it. Let's just sell them to people that want to buy them. And now you can have all the. All 22. I mean, I'm watching it this morning. There is all 22 from every game going back 10 years available to anybody with a. With a credit card. And the league did not fold. It did not collapse. Scoring did not drop down to zero points per game, because everybody knows everybody's plays. So there is a level of access that the NFL has allowed because for years, dudes, they. They acted like if the all 22 got out, the world would end, the secrets of football would be explored by everybody. And then what. You know, and the fact is, it's only made us all more crazy about this sport, not less crazy. We're all excited to think that we can see things that we couldn't see in the past. So maybe in the end, it's all the same. George. I don't know.
- [64:58]
B
I probably didn't make that big a deal.
- [64:59]
C
But I am thankful that we do have access to where now we can really drill down on whether Tyler Guyton is good at pass protection.
- [65:08]
B
Right. That's. That's. That's basically what it comes down to, what the dudes do on the field.
- [65:13]
C
Because our dads didn't know whether Ralph Neely was good at it, right?
- [65:16]
B
No, they just knew the game was on, that the beer was cold. They were going to watch.
- [65:19]
C
We have more points. Yeah. Yeah.
- [65:22]
B
Okay. Well, there you go. Little show from training camp. That was fun. Covered a lot of ground. And let's do it again next week, not too far away, about 10 days away from the first preseason game for the Cowboys. And we got a preseason game hall of Fame game this week.
- [65:38]
C
Oh, well, man.
- [65:39]
B
It's.
- [65:40]
C
Forward to your full report of next week's episode.
- [65:42]
B
We'll look at the the all 22s of that by next week. All right, thanks to Peter Welton for putting up with us again this week producing this thing for Bob Sturm. I'm George Dunham, and we'll talk to you next week again on football. Friends,
- [66:04]
C
You know those tiny back to school emergencies that somehow become your problem?
- [66:08]
B
That's why I love Uber Eats. You can order school supplies, snacks and lunchbox essentials for $5 or less. So when your kid casually drops I don't like peanut butter anymore or I
- [66:18]
C
need five green highlighters for a project
- [66:19]
B
due tomorrow, Uber Eats has you covered. Get everything you need for Back to School today from your favorite brands like
- [66:24]
C
Aldi and Staples and Uber Eats. Order now ends 97.
- [66:28]
B
$5 or less before taxes and fees. Select items only. Availability varies. See app for details.