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- [00:00]
George Dunham
What's going on? I'm Arch Manning Vuori athlete and college quarterback. Whether I'm running, training, traveling or just unwinding at home, I love doing it in my core shorts from Vuori. With a breathable boxer brief liner, they're quick to dry, super versatile and stand up to even my most intense training sessions. Plus they come in three inseams and a ton of colors. Ready to try a pair? Go to vuori.com arch and get 20% off at checkout. I think you're going to love them as much as I do. That's vu r I.com arch and get 20% off your first order. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Have a great day. It's the Musers the podcast Cowboys Edition Football Friends George Dunham, Bob Stern, two guys who love football and love talking about the cowbo who are not in the super bowl for year number 32. I guess we're up to Bob, but who's counting? Yeah, who's counting?
- [01:07]
Bob Sturm
It was.
- [01:08]
George Dunham
It was the 95 season, 96 Super bowl the last time the Cowboys were here. We will talk about the two super bowl participants on this podcast, but we're also going to talk a lot about something the Cowboys didn't have much of a this year and that's defense. They have their new defensive coordinator, Christian Parker, who comes here from Philadelphia, also some time in Denver. And you know, one one of the things that stands out to me most, Bob, is his age, 34 years old, and I talked to somebody who coached with him at Texas A and M when Parker was a defensive analyst. And this, I believe, was 2018.
- [02:00]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [02:00]
George Dunham
So we're talking seven years. He's gone from a defensive analyst to a defensive coordinator. Some will say, well, he doesn't have much experience. I see that as a fast riser and there's a reason why you rise that quickly and the coaching ranks. I've heard nothing but good things about him.
- [02:21]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, and there's a lot of things to unpack in his hiring because it's an extremely uncowboys move for reasons we'll detail here shortly. But I think you hit on the right thing. He's a in demand young coach who has risen during this this era where, where, you know, you certainly can't suggest the game has passed him by. He has antiquated beliefs or anything like that because the Cowboys have been in this vortex that they can't get out of because they kind of keep doing things the same way. And. And this should pulverize that. It doesn't mean it's automatically going to be the road to success. We. We would have our hopes, of course, but, you know, honestly, just to cut right through it, if you look at their last 12 years, or maybe their last 50 years, depending on how you want to look at it, they have a type. And when they hire a defensive coordinator. Let me explain. When they hired Rod Marinelli, they hired a guy who was a former head coach who was 65 years old. And then in 2020, they hired Mike Nolan, who was a former head coach and was 61 years old. And then in 2021, they hired Dan Quinn, who was a former head coach, just 51 years old, and he wears.
- [03:45]
George Dunham
His hat backwards, too, which the kids love. They.
- [03:47]
Bob Sturm
The kids love Dan Quinn. But then in 2024, they thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's way too young. Let's hire a former head coach who's 68 in Mike Zimmer. And then last year, it was, let's hire a former head coach who's 55, and Matt Eberflu. So 55 straight defensive coordinators, five straight former head coaches, all of them between the ages of 50 and 70. And if you want to go back further, the guy before Marinelli was Monty Kiffin. Now, he wasn't a former head coach, but he was a college head coach, and he was 73. And then before that was Rob Ryan, who was 49. He's never been a head coach, but his brother and father were. And then before that is Wade Phillips. And we know that. You know what, he was a former head coach, and, you know, his dad, of course, was the head coach. So. So the. The Cowboys have been picking from the exact same tree over and over again. Now, stylistically, it has varied. There's nothing similar between Rod Marinelli and Rob Ryan. For instance, one of them believed in gambling every play, and one of them believed in gambling on no plays. And so they've tried a number of things, but if you just say, what do you guys want in hiring the new defensive coordinator? I would say two things. One, I don't want the Jones boys to do it. I want the coach to do it, because that's how it works all across the league. And. And you should give him the autonomy to. To sink or swim with his own choices, and I think that's vital. And then number two, I would say, George, I want the new defensive Coordinator to kind of be a defensive version of Brian Schottenheimer. High energy, high enthusiasm, fresh views on how the league works and where the league is going. And honestly, if I can get the third of my three point plan, I would say how about a guy who kind of has studied Vic Fangio at a very high level because I love what the Broncos were doing and I love what the Eagles are doing defensively. And I think he checks every one of these boxes. And I also think the Cowboys for once hired a guy who is in demand by other teams and so they had to move with confidence, with swiftness. They probably had to stroke a nice check to get this done. And I think there's a lot of things we can read from all of that.
- [06:18]
George Dunham
Yeah, I love all of that. I like the fact that he is a coverage guy. That's where he has spent his time. And Jerry was right about one thing in his end of the year press conference when he said the most concerning thing was the way the Cowboys covered. And he's right about that. And I do think that this is an indication that Brian Schottenheimer was the biggest voice on this hire. This was not a, hey, one of the guys over in scouting and development. Think of our search and those, hey, go get Mike Zimmer. You know.
- [06:55]
Bob Sturm
Right. So we know him.
- [06:57]
George Dunham
Yeah, we know him. He's good.
- [06:58]
Bob Sturm
He's got a dorky.
- [07:01]
George Dunham
So I think that's really encouraging. And I'm wondering what this is going to look like as far as, you know, what kind of fronts he was. He was his own guy. So I, I guess that depends on personnel, which we'll get into as well. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he is at the Star looking at tape from last year and just going, what are they doing? Exactly. And he may see that as a coaching problem. He may see that as a wow, we need a lot of new players here. That'll be interesting to see how he judges it.
- [07:41]
Bob Sturm
Yes. There's a million things there, Brian, us to discuss because I think you, you raised some interesting points on what they're going to do and how they're going to do it and what he thinks of their talent. There's definitely a lot. I did want to hear. One other thing before we dive into scheme though, from you, just because is this a big deal? Is this not a big deal from a standpoint of, you know, even mentioning it? You know, and I know climate is, is always looming around us, but it. The Cowboys have played, they'll play their 67th season and so they've played 66 of them. So that's 66 years as a head coach opening 66 defensive coordinators, 66 offensive coordinator, the three big spots on a football team. So by my math, and I may not be good at this, but there's 198 seasons of Cowboys head coach, D.C. oC and I think this would be the first time that a person of color, a minority coordinator or head coach for the Cowboys, with the exception of Brian Stewart for the two years of 07 and 08. And I believe Wade Phillips was the actual defensive coordinator that year. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't think Brian Stewart ever had the autonomy to do what he wanted with the defense. So I, I, I just think it's a noteworthy note. I, I don't like making, you know, vast observations based on race or ethnicity, but I do think it is worth mentioning that of all the, of all the NFL franchises, how many in 2026 still haven't had a head coach or a coordinator on either side of the ball that is a non white guy? Again, that's not important to me, but I bet you it's important to a lot of people that, that love the Cowboys and that are probably, you know, representing the minority community as well. So I just think that's at least worth pointing out.
- [09:55]
George Dunham
I think it's very much worth pointing out, pointing out Maurice Carthon I think you would put on that list as well as he was O.C. to Bill Parcells. But I think it was a similar situation. I don't know how much.
- [10:08]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [10:08]
George Dunham
In other words, I don't think that was his offense. You know, that's right.
- [10:12]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [10:13]
George Dunham
It's instead of one. You know, I mean that's, no, I think it's worth bringing up for sure, Bob.
- [10:20]
Bob Sturm
And.
- [10:22]
George Dunham
Hey, I think it's, I don't know that it mattered when they threw their net out.
- [10:30]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [10:30]
George Dunham
But you can see how this can, how the Rooney rule can, can help. Yeah. Get you to think outside the box and you know, think and think about that because hey, for a long time this league was not very fair to those minorities who were trying to be a defensive coordinator or head coach for sure.
- [10:56]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. So, so I would never, especially with the guys we know in this organization, I, I would never point a finger of, of that has ever affected a decision they've made. I think they try to make sound decisions for the right reasons. And for crying out loud, Will McClay is, is is one of the highest ranking officials in this organization, has been for a long time. So they've got no issue with it. But I do think it's, it's at least a milestone that is noteworthy because this, I don't think Christian Parker has any oversight whatsoever on the defense. I think Brian Schadenheimer is going to empower him to do whatever he thinks is worthy. So not only the age component, but the, the ethnicity component is interesting to me. The, the. Well, it's just, it's just a fresh approach to how the Cowboys are going about their business.
- [11:48]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [11:50]
Bob Sturm
Now the flip side of all this is I think it demonstrates Brian Schottenheimer has a lot of clout right now. A lot of might we say, power to. He's been empowered. He's been given the mandate, however you want to say it. I think Brian Schottenheimer actually has the earth of the Jones boys, of Jerry in particular. And, and that is why, honestly, if you're a Cowboy fan and you want to see the other paths explored, I think it's important this works. I think it's important that huge, huge hire that if Brian Schottheimer is right, well, then maybe the rest of his regime is more of his father thought process. And if he's wrong and if the defense continues to stink or if the Cowboys in general continue to stink there, you know, we might go back in the other direction of, I don't know, Butch Davis or, or what does Dave Wanstead think? Or, you know, just all the, all of the old paths we've been on. So, so I think if you are a Cowboy fan that just wants new. This is this, this upcoming season and really this off season are very, very important. Now as to the scheme this is. This all fits together to me because you and I have talked about this. They, they went and got Kenny Clark and then they went and got Quinn and Williams and they also locked up Osa Odiggy Zul. Like 12 months ago, we thought defensive tackle was the biggest position of need in this organization. And now they have three blue chip defensive tackles. And of course, the moment that happened, the moment the jets trade happened, we start thinking, are they switching to a 34 without even telling us? Because the opposite idea would either be A, one of those three guys is actually a defensive end for them, which nobody believes who's seen any of them on tape, or B, they're going to have a $25 million backup defensive tackle and given their cap situation, there's no way that's possible. So I think they're switching to an odd front.
- [14:08]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [14:09]
Bob Sturm
And, and I think an important piece of evidence happened this weekend or this week, which would be the Cowboys interviewing Pittsburgh Steelers outside linebackers coach Denzel Martin. Now does he get hired? I don't know. But the minute you start interviewing outside linebacker coaches, that would make us think you are planning on having outside linebackers, which suggests to us that they are headed to an odd front. A 34, a five man front with two stand up outside edges which we've talked about. Donovan as a Raku feels like one of them. We're not positive who the other one is. Although right now there's only one other linebacker who is actually under contract who could do that, which would be James Houston. And that's their entire roster. So they're going to need some outside linebackers. But I would imagine interviewing a guy who specializes in that, I think that's another clue, another breadcrumb, Georgie, that this might be the plan.
- [15:20]
George Dunham
Well, I, yeah, it's good detective work there. That didn't even dawn on my little simple brain when I saw that. I was just struck that this is going to be an overhaul of the whole staff to defensively.
- [15:32]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [15:32]
George Dunham
Which I think is also important. It also may indicate that there is going to be a, a scheme change and let's get guys who've, you know, coordinated a defense with the odd front and man, I think that's good too. I, you know, I have nothing against these coaches who were here.
- [15:51]
Bob Sturm
That's right.
- [15:51]
George Dunham
The coaching business is really tough. And you know, when you sign up, there's a good chance after one year everything can change and it needs to change here for whatever reason. But it just didn't work. Well, there's a lot of reasons why it didn't work. But you're right about how big this hire is. Because if Parker can come in, make an impact to the point where Schottenheimer goes, man, this guy knows what he's doing. He's changed the culture. So we talk so much about culture on the defensive side. How much time did Brian Schottenheimer have to spend in defensive meetings going, okay, now what? What are we doing here? What he didn't have, he didn't need to do. He's a play caller. He can't.
- [16:36]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [16:37]
George Dunham
He didn't have time for that. And if he can just be an offensive geek for a week and, and let Parker and his assistants run the defense, I think that's a huge difference. And not to put too much pressure on him, but this Hire kind of determines the Schottenheimer trajectory.
- [16:59]
Bob Sturm
Yes, it absolutely does. You got to get this one right for a million reasons. But I mean, one of the main ones would be like, imagine demarvi and Overshown and he hasn't had the same defensive coordinator twice. Like, wasn't he a 23 pick was overshone. Yeah.
- [17:19]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [17:19]
Bob Sturm
So in 23 he's got Quinn. In 24, he's got Zimmer. In 25 he's got Eber flutes. In 26 he has Parker. I mean, come on, guys. And you're switching schemes and you're, you know, I, I just think whether it's Leo Fowl or Overshown or Shemar James or any of these young linebackers, like, goodness, once they figure something out, you're yanking the steering wheel in the other direction. So I think it's very important that this works and this becomes a multi year thing. Now a couple other things that need to be mentioned in any discussion about Christian Parker's hire would be one, he's never called plays. And that's important. Now, how important we'll have to see. But when that happens in week one of 2026, it will be his first time. And I imagine there is a process to getting good at it. Sure. But I'd like to think that, you know, riding shotgun with Vic Fangio and Vance Joseph for all those years have put him in a position to be ready. And there's only one way to break the seal on that. The other thing, which again should be pointed out, is part of the attractiveness of Christian Parker being hired here is his reputation of being a guy who relates well to players, who has good leadership and, and, and sets vibes in the room. I don't know how much you were aware of him before his name came up, but last year at the super bowl there were a lot of long stories about Christian Parker's the secret sauce for the Eagles young defense and of course, their two rookie corners who ended up starring in the super bowl win in Quinion Mitchell and Cooper DeJean. And, and just, you know, how did these guys go from college football to shutting down Patrick Mahomes year in the Super Bowl? I mean, what a story we have here. How did this happen? And many people said Christian Parker deserves a ton of credit. Well, what all that means, what all that good buzz means, is that if he's really good this year, he probably becomes a head coaching candidate for somebody next year. Now I think you and I would say if the Cowboys have a defensive coach that is so good that somebody else is trying to hire him, then the Cowboys have had a really good season and we should celebrate that. But I just at wanted to put that little thing on the, on the board is that if you had the GMs of this league give you a list of 10 guys in their 30s who they expect will be a head coach soon, I bet you Christian Parker's on every list.
- [20:06]
George Dunham
Yeah, well, the guy that I know that coached with him at A and M said he, even then he, you know, was around him I think for maybe one year. He said he was really impressive and just the kind of guy he said, okay, he's going places. And here he is seven years later as a defensive coordinator for the Dallas Cowboys. That's, that's a pretty quick jump and it says a lot about him and his knowledge and his character. Okay, now as he puts the tape in and watches all this and thinks, what in the world is this? How does a guy get that wide open? That's where we're going to go next is what he has to work with and man, let's go down, let's go down a list of defensive players and what Christian Parker can do with them. Coming up next on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys edition. Get ready for the Rush with Max Crosby.
- [21:05]
Bob Sturm
It's time.
- [21:06]
George Dunham
Don't miss the behind the scenes moments everyone's talking about, regardless of what they say. I'll take the fine.
- [21:12]
Bob Sturm
I don't care all about.
- [21:13]
George Dunham
Pro defensive end Max Crosby takes you beyond the field with exclusive insights. I could say this because I played them.
- [21:20]
Bob Sturm
This is the rush. You guys already know what time it is. It was fire and we'll be right.
- [21:24]
George Dunham
Back on the pod and we'll be.
- [21:25]
Bob Sturm
Talking about it next week.
- [21:26]
George Dunham
The Rush with Max Crosby.
- [21:28]
Bob Sturm
Follow and listen on your favorite platform.
- [21:31]
George Dunham
Football's biggest game is right around the corner and you can get in on the action with underdog new customers score $75 in fantasy bonus entries when you make your first five dollar fantasy entry just down. Download the app and make a pick on a player either higher or lower. I'm going higher on Drake Mays 225.5 passing yards against the Seahawks. Download the app today. Use the promo code Ticket25 to score $75 in fantasy bonus entries when you play your first $5 on fantasy. That's promo code Ticket25. Underdog make picks win money must be 18 or older, 19 or older in Alabama and Nebraska, 19 or older in Colorado. For some games 21 or older in Arizona, Massachusetts and Virginia and present in a state where underdog fantasy operates terms app assets.underdogfantasy.com web play and getterms underscore dfs underscore.HTML for details. Offer not valid in Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio or Pennsylvania. Concerned with your play? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit www.ncpgambling.org. in New York, call the 24.7hope line at 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY or 673-69. We all know the Cowboys defense was an absolute mess in 2025. It's Christian Parker's job now to fix that as the new defensive coordinator. I mean, just kind of right after they played their last game. Bob, I thought, okay, there's maybe six or eight keepers on this defense and I'd, I'd switch everything else out. Is that being too harsh or you think that's about right?
- [23:01]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I mean, I mean you got.
- [23:03]
George Dunham
To have guys to fill out a roster.
- [23:04]
Bob Sturm
You got to have guys and there are some positions where they have maybe their entire position group already. Like let's say we agree they're running a three man front with, with two outside linebackers, a three man front. I see six guys in those three positions already and I think they're all good players. Quinn and Williams is your centerpiece. Behind him is Jay Toya, who I'm still fine with. I'm willing to, you know, find, make him compete. But I think that kid from UCLA has, has some talent behind him. Then on I have also Diggy Zua and probably behind him is somebody like Perry on Winfrey. Cool. And then on the other side I have Kenny Clark and Solomon Thomas. Okay. I feel like defensive line proper we can win with those, with that group. But then we start to say who's at, who's at edge, who's going to get me eight to 10 sacks and who's going to be able to fly in space like you need on a 34 from your outside linebackers. Who could, I mean if you're interviewing the Steelers guy. Okay, who can be my, my outsides like what Highsmith and Watt and her big. I'm trying to think of who all their outside linebackers are there but through the years we know who they are as a rock, who I'm, I'm very interested in. I think his athleticism is fantastic and I would say that's a guy I'm excited about. The other guy might be in this draft. That's the thing. I know James Houston Has a lot of people that say, gosh, every time he's on the field, he makes plays and I don't disagree with you.
- [24:51]
George Dunham
Kind of one of those. Yeah, well, I, but he seemed to be frustrated by his lack of playing time. And I talked to someone in the organization who thought that was part of the problem with the defense, especially at that position, that they played too many guys.
- [25:07]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, no, I think that's fair. The good news is every one of those guys is a ufa, it seems like, because Sam Williams and Dante Fowler and Jadavian Clowney and I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple who are all out of contract at the exact same time. And of course Micah Parsons and this DeMarcus Lawrence guy. So, so we've really turned around defensive tackle, but now we have no edges. So, so in a perfect world as a rock, who's on one side and, and pick number 12 is going to be on the other side for me, probably. Although.
- [25:42]
George Dunham
Okay. But starting that first game, it may be somebody like either Sam Williams or Dante Fowler. And Fowler, by the way, was brought up as one of the guys who would have had better numbers this year had he been given more snaps. Now, I don't, I don't know. What did you see in.
- [25:59]
Bob Sturm
Well, I didn't see enough. I'll be honest. I think they gave him $10 million for that one year because he was coming off a really great year in Washington.
- [26:08]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [26:09]
Bob Sturm
And I guess my thought is I, I'm gonna need some real production and, and I just didn't see that. Now, if, if the word on the streets is that Eber Floose didn't love putting them out there, you know, that's, I, I, I'm willing to keep an open mind, but I think Dante Fowler's price point is probably similar to Jadavian Clowney. And so now I need Christian Parker to get in a room and say if we're making a scheme change, which one of these guys can do that? And as much as I love Clowney, I'm not sure I've ever seen him play with, you know, two, two point stance, out in space, chasing running backs and all that sort of thing. And I don't know, I've always thought of him as a traditional 43 edge. Fowler has the body type for it. I don't have a lot on that either. There's, there's, there's guys in the draft for sure, but I, but do I want to use my, my best ammunition on that or do I have that earmarked for a big time corner because Christian Parker has had Patrick Certain and Quinon Mitchell and he's had some big time corners who are a big part of his scheme. And therefore, you know, maybe that's what you want to be doing with your first rounder and maybe linebacker is. So there's some complications for sure. But what we got to do of course is figure out exactly the scheme plan and could James Houston play in space? I mean there's, there's a, there's, there's something to his game that says he's a dpr, as they say on the depth chart, a designated pass rusher. And let's be, let's be clear with everybody listening whether you run a three, four or four, three, nickel is base and nickel is run about 60 to 70% of all snaps in the NFL. And when you run nickel, you are running a four man front, you're just not running the same four man front you would in base. And so I don't want to get too complex here, but in nickel you would get into nickel because you believe they're going to pass. And so our front four might be four pass rushers and not run stoppers. Now the good news is going back to defensive tackle Quinn and Williams, Oso Digizua and Kenny Clark. They're all guys who can play the pass. They are all guys who can affect the passer and get home and still mind the store for run. So we don't have a guy who on passing downs, we have to get him off the field because he's useless. They, I mean for $25 million you would hope so, right? And they have a bunch of guys who can do that. James Houston does seem like a, a nickel pass rusher either way and he's under contract for, for very little money. So, so I think he'll be useful there too. And, and like we said Perry on Winfrey, Solomon Thomas, the only rundown guy you have is probably Jay Toaya and that's fine. And so, you know, you start to, you start to find, okay, where can I get 800 snaps out there on the edge opposite Ezraku. And, and maybe there's a, maybe there's a trade to be made. Maybe there's, you know, there's a number of ways to skin this cat, but I just don't think they have that guy right now, which is why they're probably sorting through do we want another year of Fowler? Do we want to see if Sam Williams. The thing about Williams is I think about Dorance Armstrong and at that age, heading into year five, the money is probably way too much to take a chance.
- [29:55]
George Dunham
See, he's one of those guys. I've seen enough. I'm sorry. I agree, maybe he goes somewhere else and flourishes, but man, he's had a chance here, given a lot of snaps, a lot of opportunities and I just haven't seen it outside of the block punt. I, I haven't seen.
- [30:11]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, and I think, George, there's, there's reason to believe a guy of his age with his splash plays not a ton of them, but they're there. That somebody's going to put three years on him at six to eight million dollars a year and you're going to read in the paper that Sam Williams just got 3 for 24 from Frickin Jacksonville or Tennessee and you're going to be like, good luck guys. Yeah, we're not doing that.
- [30:39]
George Dunham
No.
- [30:39]
Bob Sturm
And so I, I just think those guys who are actual dudes who can get to the quarterback when they become free agents at like age 25, the, the, the market value is way higher than, than most of us would imagine.
- [30:56]
George Dunham
And then the production and then as you get to the secondary, I can't wait to. And we'll never know. I guess the, you will hear what he says publicly. But what's Christian Parker going to think about Duran Bland? How can he fix what went wrong for Duron Bland last year? What does he see in Siobhan Revel, who we've talked about a lot? The rookie corner who was coming off a serious injury. We saw him at the end of the year and boy teams picked on him. But there's some promise there. What can he bring out in him? And then you get back to safety and I'm sorry, but I'm almost ready to switch out both Hooker and Donovan Wilson. Well, am I crazy or no?
- [31:44]
Bob Sturm
I don't think you're crazy. I, I do want to have the Donovan Wilson talk just based on one little thing that you've mentioned already on the show, which is you know who was at Texas a m in 2018, don't you?
- [31:56]
George Dunham
Oh, that's true.
- [31:58]
Bob Sturm
So I don't know, is that good, is that good or bad news?
- [32:01]
George Dunham
I think Christian Parker, if he looks at the tape, and he will from last year, he'll go, that's not the same guy. Yeah, Donovan Wilson used to thump people and I don't know what got into him. Now again, maybe it's just the atmosphere here. Last year was so bad they didn't believe it. They Were out of position, being asked to do things they weren't comfortable with. But let me ask you this, here's another problem that I saw again, qualifiers. Not a defensive coordinator, not an NFL coach.
- [32:33]
Bob Sturm
Neither of us are.
- [32:34]
George Dunham
Neither of us are. But when you see defenses that play well and two of them are in the super bowl, you see technique, you see a want to, you see hair on fire, and collectively it all works, man. I just, I just think with. We watch defensive backs fall down on one on one coverage and yes, attempting to make a tackle, there needs to be a real commitment to technique. And this is how we set our feet, this is how we define inside leverage. And it was just a technique nightmare here. And maybe you can fix some of these guys with repetition of this is the proper way to play it.
- [33:23]
Bob Sturm
Well, I think first of all, I agree with you. And second of all, I think what you probably need, and this is going to sound extremely simplistic, so forgive me, this, this, this is not technical at all. They're going to need some dudes and they're going to need a couple culture changing players brought into this defense. And I Hope at picks 12 and 20, I can maybe make some of that happen. I think the Siobhan Ravel's conversation is actually super interesting because I do think if you just say, I'm not worried at all about what you did in 2025. You were playing out a, you were just getting your feet wet in the NFL. Let's forget that ever happened. And I think that's probably the best move because the tape was bad and he looked allergic to tackling. He sort of looked like maybe Trayvon Diggs taught him how to tackle or something like that. And it was bad. But I loved his tape in college at East Carolina. I realize he's coming back from a major injury and competing against good people.
- [34:27]
George Dunham
I went back and looked at some of that stuff. I mean like competing against Michigan and, and big schools where he stood out of, man, that's a dude.
- [34:35]
Bob Sturm
And he would go get the ball and you know, he was, he had, he had a lot of swagger and I love that in a corner. But they got to figure out what he is and they got to figure out what Duron Bland is. And the problem with that, George, is they already gave him $100 million and that means he's a centerpiece on this defense because you're paying him like one at least for the next two seasons. I think before you could walk away from something like that. So you got to figure out Bland, I think he's a nickel, but I also recognize that you might be paying him like an outside corner, and maybe you just say, let's find your best position. It's almost the Tyler Guyton discussion in the other direction, where we first got to get you on the field and we got to find where you're best at and we got to play you there, and we got to maximize your value while you still have some. And I think Bland has been kind of disappointing to me, but I bet you he has a long list of frustrations, including the fact that he's part of a Daffy Duck secondary. And if you put better players around him, then he isn't the guy trying to cover Marvin Harrison. That's just a horrible matchup. Or DK Metcalf. It's a horrible matchup. He's too small. So I think they got to start plugging guys into proper spots, but then surrounding them with. With guys who can hold their own. I look at the cornerback position right now, and I see a bunch of names. I just don't see a bunch of special. It's. It's Kaylin Carson. Is he even an NFL player right now? Duron Bland, like we said, he has a contract. He's a starter no matter what. Siobhan Ravel needs to be a starter no matter what. But then I've got ready Stewart, I've got Trequizy Bridges, and I've got Josh Butler as a. As a restricted free agent, I believe, or exclusive rights. I'm trying to remember which one he is, but him and Stewart are going to need some sort of contract, but I don't think it's a big deal. The question is, would I want to spend a extremely high pick on another corner? And if I go get one of the best corners in this draft, suddenly, does ravel, Bland and McCoy from Tennessee or Delane from LSU suddenly. Do I have a great group of corners with one pick? I just, you know, it's like a pitching rotation. I've been misusing Bland as a one, but if he's my two or my three. Okay, now we're. Now we're going, right?
- [37:11]
George Dunham
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And. Well, they're going to have to lean on him because they're. They're going to. Would it be silly if every draft pick this year was a defensive player?
- [37:21]
Bob Sturm
Oh, my gosh, no. Especially since I only have two on days one and two. I mean, I got 12 and 20. I got nothing till round four. I'm probably going to pick up some comp picks on day three. But I, you know, I can't be expecting day three guys to start for me as rookies. That's, that's insane. If they ever start for me, that's, that's amazing. So, so I got to make the most of those two picks and I got to think about trading back and I gotta, you know, I gotta make this work. And so, you know, I, I, I don't want to get into the draft yet, but I would even be open to a safety in round one. And there's one.
- [38:00]
George Dunham
Absolutely. If he could.
- [38:01]
Bob Sturm
There's one in particular here. Yeah, I was gonna say, if Caleb Downs gets to me at number 12, the Ohio State safety.
- [38:08]
George Dunham
Love him.
- [38:09]
Bob Sturm
He's amazing. I would love to add him. So, so, you know when people say, what are you thinking about in round one? Well, I'm thinking edge linebacker, corner and safety. And, and I can't get all four, so, so I gotta find two blue chip special players and hope they are plug and play dudes right away. And you know, that's probably, unfortunately, that's probably extremely optimistic because I don't know that there are 20 dudes in this draft. I'm not even sure there are eight dudes in this draft. And so you can get to 12 and feel like you're already cleaned out and the best player on the board is going to be a wide receiver. And then what do we do? So there's, it all goes back to, and I'm sorry if I'm going too long on this because, because I'm in off season mode now. But, but this is, this is sort of the, the issue with trying to put a roster together is that you have to understand how one move affects so many different spots to where, okay, if we take the best guy on our board, what does that do to all these other spots where we're going to ignore? And we did that with like CD Lamb. Okay, CD Lamb was too good not to pick and it's turned out to be a wonderful pick. But if we could take you back to that draft day, we were like, who are our edge rushers? This is before Micah, of course. And who are, you know, who are we going to play at corner? And luckily Trayvon Diggs fell to round two that year. But that's one thing. The other thing that I think is really complicated and I've been trying to fix this for a decade, George, and they're never going to let me fix it, but I just think the NFL would be so much better served if they could get the draft in front of free agency because I've got all these decisions to make. Let's take Donovan Wilson. He's a ufa. He's been my starting safety for a couple years now. He's not a bad player, he's just not a great player. But he's a guy. He's a guy I know. He's a guy I'm familiar with. And he's a guy that at the right price, I'm probably going to keep him. But I would so much rather go through the draft and find out, do I have a better idea? Because the other direction, if I pass on Donovan Wilson and now I get to the draft and I don't get a safety, what am I doing?
- [40:43]
George Dunham
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Bob Sturm
And how can I be a successful defense without, you know, without an actual starter at a very important position? And so I always think the NFL has this backwards because every other sport does the draft first and then free agency. If you look at the NBA, if you look at the NHL, you look at Major League Baseball, they all do it the other way. Yeah, but. But in football we flipped it so that March is silly season for free agency and then we draft. And I just think it puts these teams in these impossible spots and frankly, I suppose the players association likes it because you don't get to replace them first before the window opens. But. But I just think from a team building standpoint, it's really complex this way.
- [41:29]
George Dunham
Well, that's a really good thought, Bob. You need to be like associate commissioner of the NFL or something. Maybe not commissioner saying that, but saying that. Maybe associate commissioner on things like when we draft versus when we sign free agents. And how about how we officiate a championship game? Let's go there. Next. There's a couple of officiating things to talk about and some coaching decisions as well. And we'll do that on the Musers the podcast Cowboys edition. Picture chicken nuggets in your head.
- [42:04]
Bob Sturm
Okay, now forget them because Taco Bell's.
- [42:06]
George Dunham
Crispy chicken nuggets are here.
- [42:08]
Bob Sturm
And they're nothing like the nuggets. You know, all white meat chicken coated.
- [42:11]
George Dunham
In tortilla chips for that signature Taco Bell crunch. A nugget like that calls for a sauce that can keep up. Introducing Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch, the iconic ranch you love.
- [42:21]
Bob Sturm
Fired up with Taco Bell Diablo sauce. Bold meets Boulder Ranch meets Diablo. And it works. Crispy chicken nuggets from Taco Bell, a.
- [42:30]
George Dunham
Brand new classic at participating us Taco Bell locations for a limited time only while supplies last. It's back. Hey, it's Dan Bongino. I've got some big news for you. Starting February 2nd, the show is back. That's right, the Dan Bongino show is.
- [42:43]
Bob Sturm
Relaunching and we're going bigger than ever.
- [42:45]
George Dunham
Join me live on rumble.com Monday through.
- [42:48]
Bob Sturm
Friday, 10am to noon Eastern.
- [42:50]
George Dunham
We'll cover the stories that matter, cut through all the garbage and get to the truth. Can't catch it live? No problem. Grab the audio wherever you get your podcasts. Remember February 2nd, the return to the Dan Bongino Show. Don't miss it. Okay, so we are down to the Patriots and the Seahawks. At what point did you start believing in the Seahawks as a Super bowl team? I think both of these teams are unlikely. They both missed the playoffs. But about midway through the season, it really started looking like, okay, who's going to beat Seattle?
- [43:29]
Bob Sturm
Well, I probably was a late adopter on this. I forget which game. Probably that Thursday night game against the Rams before Christmas that we all enjoyed with that weird. Was it the two point conversion version? Yeah, yeah, the, the very weird scenario there was probably when I'm like, wow, if they do get the one seed, this is going to get really interesting really fast. And you know, there's such an advantage in being the one seed. Of course, if you're a Cowboys guy, or in my case, a guy who covers the Cowboys and follows the packers, you definitely know that both of those teams have screwed up the one seed enough times to say it doesn't promise anything. No, but it sure is nice not to have to play in that first weekend and then to be completely healthy, just mowing down a limping team in the second round and then you've got to win your NFC Championship game. And it wasn't easy. But that is a really, really good football team and they're built on defense. And I think it's amazing to me, George, because if you're running the Seahawks, do you have the wisdom to hire Mike McDonald? And the reason I ask is everybody is thinking, we got, this is an offensive league. I got to hire an offensive coach. He's thinking, let's say John Schneider, their GM. He's thinking, I got to play McVay twice a year. I got to play Shanahan twice a year. I better get a coach who has a clue on how to stop those two, what I think are the best two offensive coaches in the sport. Then it turns out that this year he had to play both of those two guys three times each.
- [45:15]
George Dunham
Interesting.
- [45:16]
Bob Sturm
Yeah. And by the way, at no point did you think the Seattle defense could not handle its business against Shanahan and McVeigh. Now, make no mistake, Matthew Stafford and the Rams offense played well enough to be in the Super Bowl. But I just think it's an amazing story that they hired not only a defensive guy, but they also passed on Dan Quinn at the time, who was looking for a gig and ended up in Washington. And by the way, Washington's very happy with them. And. And we know how good Dan Quinn is, but that is the Legion of Boom defensive guy. You know, Pete Carroll would probably argue with us, but. But Dan Quinn was a massive guy with the Legion of Boom, and it would have been a really easy homecoming story. And instead they went with the Ravens, D.C. and he has knocked it out of the park. Boy.
- [46:09]
George Dunham
And let's stay there as a bit of an audible because we were going to talk about something else, but I want to stay there because I think it's really interesting how the NFL will zero in on something and start going in that direction. And a lot of it has been offense for the last decade or so, but maybe McDonald was part of the first domino to fall in the. Exactly what you said. Hey, let's start thinking about this. There's a lot of offensive guys out there. It's no fun to be a defensive coordinator who are the best defensive guys in this league.
- [46:48]
Bob Sturm
Right.
- [46:49]
George Dunham
And let's go get the McVeigh of defense or the Shanahan of defense. And I think McDonald hits that. And look what teams are doing here this off season. The defensive coaches are getting the interviews and they're getting some of the jobs. And I wonder if that is a trend now in this league.
- [47:10]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I wonder. It's cyclical. And the argument against it, which I have presented in the past is I don't. I don't like the idea of losing my offensive coordinator every year. And if, you know, like, Seattle's going to. Right. Clint Kubiak is definitely going to be a head coach. And then we're going to have to start our offensive situation all over again with the new guy we hire. And so that's part of the deal. But if you're an offensive head coach, then you never have to rebuild that bridge with the quarterback where, you know, so a defensive coach has to deal with that, which I think is a little more complex. But, you know, you can make it work. I mean, how many great coaches in NFL history and Bill Belichick comes to mind that are defensive coaches first? So. And they figure it out. They will have Charlie Weiss, we'll have Bill O', Brien, we'll have Josh McDaniel. We'll, we'll figure out who is going to talk to Tom Brady. I'm going to handle the defense. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's a round and round discussion. But I, I just think the way they've built that defense and the way that stadium rocks and the way they pound the rock offensively and let's not mistake this as well. And this is a John Schneider thing. Their offensive line is really impressive and really young. And there was that year they took both tackles pretty high in the draft. Cross from Mississippi State and Lucas and the way Charles Cross played on Sunday against Jared Verse. I thought that was magnificent.
- [48:51]
George Dunham
That's a left hand was really not much of a factor.
- [48:53]
Bob Sturm
That's right. And they didn't really help him most of the game either. And that's vital. And they can run the ball and they lose Charbonnet to injury and Kenneth Walker's a beast and so very impressed with the Seahawks. I think it's a great story. I think it's a great fan base and stadium and city and that whole thing. So it's easy for me to kind of pull for the Seahawks, you know, in a, in a situation like that. Although I also wanted to see devonte Adams finally break on through to the other side and that didn't quite work out. But you know that, that game was great and you know, I enjoyed the AFC game as well. I know everybody's arguing about weather games, but to me, and I don't think I'll have to twist your arm on this, that's the fabric of football for me.
- [49:45]
George Dunham
Something called the ice bowl out there.
- [49:47]
Bob Sturm
The ice bowl and the mud bowl and the fog bowl. And you know, we can just go down the list of this is what our sport is. If you take this away, you're going to create basketball. And as much as I like basketball, I don't want my football to become basketball. I don't want pristine conditions. I don't want to, to ever see a time where somebody doesn't slip when they don't intend to slip or, or, you know, they, they can't throw the ball because it's too cold. That is our sport. So rub some dirt in it and get back out there and give us a memory. As, as, by the way, hypocritical. I don't like going to cold football games anymore. I think I'm done doing that. I've been to Way too many games on.
- [50:29]
George Dunham
Yeah, but we like sitting in their living room going, wow, that's cool. It looks like a snow globe.
- [50:33]
Bob Sturm
I want to be right to go get another cup of cocoa and sit by the fire and watch you guys be miserable because that's football to me.
- [50:42]
George Dunham
Let's end here and we need to spend some more time with this in the off season. Sean McVeigh is kicking himself. Sean Payton is kicking himself. Sean McVeigh kicking himself for maybe not fixing a special teams problem earlier in the season.
- [51:01]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [51:02]
George Dunham
Costly fumbles just.
- [51:03]
Bob Sturm
They fired their guy.
- [51:05]
George Dunham
He fired the guy. Yeah. That's a hard thing to do is to try to calibrate your teams in midway through a season.
- [51:13]
Bob Sturm
That's right.
- [51:15]
George Dunham
But let me ask you this, Bob. We're all about going for it on fourth down. We want touchdowns, we don't want field goals. McVeigh's probably kicking himself maybe for not going for two after they got the the not a freebie touchdown but they got bailed out by a unsportsmanlike conduct and then they make it a, a four point game where they could have made a three point game with a two point conversion. Is he also kicking himself for not making it a one point game when he went for it on 4th and 4 about the five minute mark?
- [51:53]
Bob Sturm
Yep.
- [51:54]
George Dunham
Probably not as much as Sean Payton is kicking himself with a backup quarterback and a 7 nothing lead in the second quarter. Could have had a 10 nothing lead but pass that up. I think his biggest problem is the play call. He went with a bootleg instead of a running play. That's been nails for him this year. And they didn't make the fourth and one. In other words, are have we gotten so heavy in 4th and 1? Let's go, let's go, let's go. That we've forgotten the importance of every stinking point and especially in a playoff game.
- [52:32]
Bob Sturm
Yeah, I thought, I think you're spot on. I think we saw the 2 mikes beat the 2 Sean's on Sunday and I thought that was funny. Yeah, in both cases you got to take the points. You don't always have to take the points. I do think sometimes going forward on fourth down and sometimes going for the touchdown instead of the field goal is the right call. But man, the Sean Payton decision is insane to me because going up double digits with a backup quarterback is like the greatest possible scenario you could imagine, let alone being the home team and not realizing a blizzard is about to hit is crazy to me. Like I you want to talk about small advantages in the playoffs that will live forever. How about not making sure every Denver meteorologist with all their models like, like hire every weatherman in the city to be in the bowels of that stadium with all their models and radar and figuring out, guys, the clock is ticking. We've got to get the lead and we've got to make sure we get to like even that third down play where Stidham commits the most egregious quarterback decision in the playoffs this year. But if, if you know what's about to happen, weather wise, I feel like you're telling him we're handing off and we're punting because it's right before halftime and we can't give them a free touchdown. New England scored 10 points in the game and one of them, the touchdown, the seven points was on a 12 yard drive because you gave them a touchdown. And so to leave that field, go out there and to gift them a touchdown and then to basically never touch the ball in the second half until the snow blew in and boy did it ever. I just think for the home team to seemingly be unaware of any of that, that, that's, that's a big miss. If you're Denver, I just think part of home field advantage has to be that you have a pretty good idea when weather's gonna hit. By the way, I realize that nobody actually knows when a storm's going to hit and there's no 100% certainty. And especially at the foot of the mountains of the Rocky Mountains, I'm positive there are weather shifts that are just flat out out of nowhere. But they really seem clueless on that, especially if the head coach had a chance to take a double digit lead against a really, really young quarterback in Drake May in a loud stadium against an elite defense. So that over there to your point in the Rams game, you know, for them to not go for two. I see you're expecting points to be scored in the fourth quarter. Maybe you're chasing points too early. But yeah, that fourth and four where you can cut it to one. And cutting it to one matters because now if they score a touchdown, you're still just down 8. You can still fix that or you can win with a field goal. I, in both cases I probably would have made you proud screaming for a field goal because that's good.
- [55:42]
George Dunham
Bob, I'm glad you have gone completely to the dark side.
- [55:45]
Bob Sturm
I can be go for it guy. But in both of those cases, I swear to you in real time, I wanted the kicks.
- [55:52]
George Dunham
Okay. See, we're football friends we see it the same way.
- [55:57]
Bob Sturm
Now, do you want to disagree on something real fast?
- [56:00]
George Dunham
Sure.
- [56:02]
Bob Sturm
That's a horrible personal foul call on Reek Wolin. How about this?
- [56:07]
George Dunham
That was egregious, though, what he did.
- [56:09]
Bob Sturm
I don't know. Of course, you go on to the.
- [56:11]
George Dunham
White of your opponent's sideline. What in the world.
- [56:14]
Bob Sturm
And the ref is trying to give him a warning. The ref is trying to say, reek, go back to your sideline. Stop it. And Reek is not listening. He's Fort Worth Zone, Arlington Heights High School. He was a space cadet in that situation. That was not smart. He deserved the penalty. And I'll even take it a step further. The ref probably gets reprimanded if he doesn't throw the flag by his bosses. So all of that is true. But I want to say, as a fan of this beautiful, wonderful sport, I don't want the NFC Championship Game decided on a personal foul where nobody got hurt. If, if, if it's a personal foul where you're trying to injure somebody, fine. If it's a personal foul where you affect a play in the game, fine. But if you're telling me I just about gave the Rams a trip to the super bowl because I dropped a couple F bombs on Sean McVay and Matthew Stafford from close proximity, I'm going to say kind of a victimless crime. And in week nine, I'm calling it in the NFC Championship Game, I'm going to give him the maximum fine, but I'm not going to decide the winner of that game. And I don't think that's crazy.
- [57:36]
George Dunham
No, I don't think you're crazy by saying, I'm not going to fight you on that one. I. The only thing is, I wonder if his warning was, I am awarding them a first down. If you don't turn around, you are going to cost your team.
- [57:49]
Bob Sturm
Yeah.
- [57:49]
George Dunham
Instead of, hey, you're getting a little close to the sideline here.
- [57:52]
Bob Sturm
Right? Right.
- [57:53]
George Dunham
I think that would be the way to officiate that. You're about to cost your team if you don't turn around right now. What you're doing is in violation of the taunting rule. And I got my hand on the. On the flag right here.
- [58:05]
Bob Sturm
He really deserved it. He really deserved it. It was really dumb, and I'm surprised.
- [58:11]
George Dunham
It didn't start a fight. Maybe that's what he was trying to do and thinking it would just be offsetting. He probably would have been tossed. But.
- [58:17]
Bob Sturm
And to me, imagine the Cowboys and Eagles playing their third game and they're all super close and intense. And this one is for a trip to the Super Bowl. Like, yes, tempers were high, trash talking was high. All that's true. And again, he really did something dumb. And I'm, I don't know, reek. And I'm not here defending him. I'm here defending. I want a righteous winner. And just like in my beloved hockey, if a guy, you know, after the whistle punches another guy and, you know, there's pushing and shoving, there's a big scrum, I don't have to give a power play. If it's game seven in the third period, I can just, I can just say you're going to be getting a letter from the league and we're going to give you an individual fine that hopefully will hurt you. Although I'm sure the maximum is like 500 or whatever it is. But, but I just, I just don't, I don't want to decide the game because you got too intense in a game with that highest stakes. And so people get mad when I advocate swallowing your whistle at these most important times. But if it did not affect the game and there was kind of a victimless crime to it, like who is actually hurt by a naughty word on an NFL sideline, then, then that's an interesting take.
- [59:39]
George Dunham
I haven't really haven't heard that take all week. So I think, I think that's really interesting, Bob. Like most of the things you say about football, it's all, it's all really good. And I can't wait for next week. Bob, we're going to the super bowl in San Francisco.
- [59:53]
Bob Sturm
Yes.
- [59:54]
George Dunham
We're going to Talk Super Bowl 60. We're going to talk about how long it's been for the Cowboys. And next week we'll talk about something that really stood out to me in that NFC game as it relates to the Cowboys as well. And hey, we'll be from radio row. We may hear from a famous football person.
- [60:13]
Bob Sturm
I'll talk Super Bowl 11. Maybe we'll talk a little Super Bowl 18. Oh, maybe 17, maybe, I don't know, 23. Who can say?
- [60:24]
George Dunham
Man, I love the super bowl so much. So much. And we live, we love Peter Welton. He produces this thing and did it again this week. Sure did. We will join you next week from San Francisco on the Musers, the podcast Cowboys Edition Football, Friends, Football, Football.
- [60:46]
Bob Sturm
The United States Soccer Federation presents the U.S. soccer Podcast.
- [60:50]
George Dunham
My name is David Goss and I'm joined by my co host Megan Kleinenberg.
- [60:54]
Bob Sturm
Everything up until this point has been an outside look at the World cup and now we're giving people an inside look. Blue it is just total pressure cooker.
- [61:04]
George Dunham
Watching flags come out of little plastic balls is like the epitome of everything that I love. And the World cup is everything. It's why I became a soccer fan.
- [61:13]
Bob Sturm
The U.S. soccer Podcast follow and listen on your favorite platform.