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Foreign
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it is the Musers the podcast Cowboys Edition Football Friends George Dunham, Bob Sturm chopping it up and I guess we should say happy New Year, Bob. It's the NFL's new year and the Cowboys are putting together a new team. We're going to talk about as of the taping here on New Year's Day. I guess you could say nothing changes on New Year's Day, Bob.
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That's what they say.
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The Cowboys attitude towards free agency. They have signed some significant players. They have made a couple of trades. It's really interesting and as you noted this week, this isn't done yet. This is the start to it and we'll see what happens by the time we're in late April and the Cowboys have had draft choices and maybe a few more trades that are made around the draft, we'll see. Yeah, but that's the let's start there. It's not over yet. I will say on the outset I was hoping for a bigger splash. I do see some help here defensively and that's a start. It's not the big whoopee that I thought it was going to be.
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A
Well, yeah, and that's its own portion of this conversation, but you're absolutely right. We sit here right after free agency has officially opened and every single day there is activity. And that's well worth talking about, including the fact that we're still in the middle of it. I describe it on the radio as, you know, we're trying to do post game shows in the first quarter of a game or the second quarter at halftime. And just you can't do that. You don't know how the story's going to end, but it's kind of where we are. It's obviously our job to offer content and the month of March and more specifically the last seven days has, have offered an enormous amount of smaller moves that we believe are taking us somewhere on a trip to specifically redo the entire Dallas Cowboys defense. And man, when you start to put together what is a Rashawn Gary, Jalen Thompson Ott Otito O Bonya, PJ Lock and then sending away also Diggy Zua and Solomon Thomas and, and all of this is heading somewhere. The problem with that is it's not a defined place you're going. George because the fact of the matter is they can't have a specific plan because there are 31 other teams that, that, that can stand in your way. And it's, it's just, it's, it's not, it's not your, you know, even, even the portal is not a great example or a great comparison. But in the portal, there's no salary cap per se, and you can kind of go shop for your groceries and say, I need this and this and this, and you go get the best you can. Whereas in the NFL, man, it's, it's, it's more like a Black Friday sunrise sale where we've got five of these things at the back of the store and we're going to open the door and 200 people are going to go running for those five things and whoever gets there first gets them. You know, this is. You are incredibly reliant on the actions of others, including, you know, agents and teams and players. Any one of those could make your problem more difficult. And so it's fascinating. We would love to have Hard Knocks Front Office edition to show us the inner workings of all these things.
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That'd be great.
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But the fact is we only get it when it breaks publicly. So we don't know all the half ideas. We just know the things that either got over the finish line or, you know, where they're, they're kind of alternate plan. So as we go through this, it does open up the bigger conversation, George, of how this is a byproduct, in my opinion, of why the Cowboys sit out free agency for 13 years. And I'd love to bounce that off you because I think they're tied together.
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I think they are too. Okay, let's start in free agency, then we'll get to the trade. I almost want to start with the trade because that was the first domino to fall.
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Yeah.
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Getting Rashawn Gary, someone you're very familiar with, following the packers along with the Cowboys, this would have been really exciting about three or four years ago. Now it's a guy that you noted this week it was, he was on the packers cut list and the Cowboys come in and say, hey, wait a minute, we'll give you a fourth round pick and he can come play for us. He does start for the Cowboys, I imagine, and probably plays a pretty big role. You saw him play every snap. I'm just going by what I know of him as reputation and a little bit digging a little deeper. His pressure rate still pretty good. Really good for the Cowboys. He's still a, a good player. Not a great player, but okay, it's a start and it's an edge player that you desperately need.
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Yeah, yeah. So. So all that's true. He's a solid player and as somebody who's followed his Career closely. I will tell you, I don't have a lot of bad to say about Rashawn Gary because he's, he's done a lot of good for the Green Bay Packers. But, but, you know, the comparison I might use for him is, is a little bit like Duron Bland in that he's a very good pro. He's a NFL player all day, an NFL starter all day long. But the perception of Rashawn Gary is colored by two things. Number one. Well, three things. Number one was when he went to Michigan, I want to say he was like the number one player in America, number one recruit, very close, you know, you could say top five. So I realize there's a lot of guys in the NFL that could say in their year they were, they were a five star and all that. But, but so this guy as a like high school junior was, you know, one of those guys that everybody said this is going to be a superstar. So you got that perception like very Jadavian Clowney. Then number two, even after not being super productive at Michigan, Green Bay is betting on his future that he should be the 12th pick in the draft in the 2019 draft, which is I guess Matt LaFleur's first year as coach of the Packers. Okay. And then from there he was given a four year deal for like $96 million back in 2023 when Green Bay had to decide, are we going to, going to get married? You know, are we going to give this guy one of the biggest contracts in this franchise's history. And of course they said yes. So. So those three things make you expect the, the world. The, the Sun, Moon and Stars by Rashawn Gary. And he's good. He's even really good. But if he becomes your best pass rusher, then you're going to see he's not tier one, which is Myles Garrett and Micah and Max Crosby and a few others, TJ Watt and he might not even be tier two, which is, you know, the guys you can expect to get say 12 sacks in a given year. And so he's, he's probably in that third tier, the fringe Pro bowl, when things are going well. But like Duron Bland, you're so much more charming and treasured when we're not giving you $25 million a season. Yeah, the second we give you all the money now, we're not happy when you get a sack. We're expecting a lot of sacks out of you. We're not, you know, we're not thrilled when you take over a game we're wondering why you don't do it more often for what we're paying you. The example I go to, which requires people to have a little bit of baseball knowledge, but, man, it's like when they made. They gave Chanho park all the money to be an ace, and even he
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knew, I'm not an ace.
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You can pay me like an ace. That won't make me an ace. So the size of the paycheck does not make one a superstar. So Rashawn Gary was the packers best pass rusher between Zadarius Smith and Micah Parsons. And so both of those guys, you know, we can debate Zadarius versus Rashawn Gary. Maybe they are birds of a feather, but Micah is obviously at the next level. So the second that trade happened, it was Green Bay saying, we got to get better. We got to get a better pass rusher. We need a game record. Rashawn Gary is good, but he's not spectacular. So let's spend a little extra or a lot extra to get Micah freaking Parsons in here. And the second they did that, they pretty much started the clock on saying goodbye to Rashawn Gary when Gary's guaranteed money expired, which was at the end of last season. So. So now you have a couple player pass type seasons where he's down for like 20 million a year, or I guess he was up against the cap for 28 because Green Bay also had to account for the signing bonus, which Dallas doesn't have to. But at that point, with zero guaranteed money, zero dead money, if you cut him. Green Bay, I believe, was. Was fully anticipating that he would be one of their cap casualties this spring. And so, yeah, from a Green Bay perspective, nobody in their wildest dreams is expecting to get a fourth round pick. What we don't know, obviously, is what other offers was Green Bay getting. We do know the edge rusher market is out of control if Jalen Phillips is getting $120 million from Carolina. So you could argue somebody out there might have been offering a fifth for Rashawn Gary, maybe, I don't know. And they would take over his contract, which is basically now two years remaining at about $40 million total. And he's 28 years old, and, you know, he's been in the league seven years, going to start year eight. And I would say the average, and you may have it in front of you, but I would say his average season is eight sacks, something along those lines. Maybe, maybe nine, maybe 10 if you go by the PFF, which I do, which means we don't give half sacks. We give full sacks every time you get to the quarterback to end a play.
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Seven years, 46 and a half sacks. Okay, so.
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Yeah, and right in there. Yeah. And so, you know, he's. He's really a fine player. But the. The death sentence on his Green Bay career was twofold, George. One, like I said, the mic a trade, but to the mic a knee injury. Where. Now, when. When Micah got hurt, I want to say week 14 in Denver for Green Bay. And they were going to have to. They were the one seed. And so if they could win a couple games on the way in, you know, they can have home field in the playoffs and all that Jazz. Well, they lost every game. Micah didn't play. And the narrative, of course, is, yeah, the other pass rusher did not get a single thing. He did not get any stats. There's film where it kind of looks like he's not even trying that hard, which, you know, it's hard to detect, but the film doesn't look great. And maybe most damning is that they pulled him off the field on some pass rush snaps, and everybody's like, what? You're paying this guy $24 million to be your top pass rusher without Micah, and now you're taking him off the field for, like, Kingsley Enigmare. Whoa, that's weird. So here we don't totally know the Christian Parker vision, but we do know that Christian Parker worked with Rashawn Garry, believes in Rashawn Garry and thinks that he can have a second part of his career, ironically, where Micah used to be. And, yeah, the weirdness of Kenny Clark and Rashawn Gary now both being Cowboys, while Micah's in the other direction. Gary's good, but I think you almost look at it for me, George. And I know I'm talking a lot. Sorry, but I feel like it's a little like Demarcus Lawrence going to Seattle. Maybe it's time. Maybe he can be good with an ensemble cast. Not where you're asking him to be a world beater by himself. And I do think it's worth a look. I don't think it's worth it at 20 million a year. And I don't love a fourth rounder, but I will concede that I have, you know, already been told Rashawn Gary has agreed to a pay cut. And I don't know to what extent, but if I'm the Cowboys, I might say, yeah, at 20 million, no. But at 10 million, yes. And is there a number that makes both parties Happy where Rashawn Gary likes the idea of starting his career again in Dallas, but realizes his cap number is working against him. Now, see, that's the thing about this league. And like I said, with Daron Bland, there's a number where everybody is so thrilled to have you and then there's a number where they want you to be Deion Sanders. Right. And we're trying to find that number with, with Gary and Kenny Clark and some of these other guys, like, hey, we want you here. You can really help us, but we cannot pay you what Green Bay promised to pay you five years ago or three years ago.
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Yeah, he helps. There's no doubt he's a solid player. Also scouting reported he's good against the run. Rashawn Gary is so.
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He is.
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He should about that. Good guy. Good lockdown guy.
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Good, good power to him. A lot of his sacks this year were sort of keep the motor going and kind of clean up sacks a little bit. Obviously the win rate wasn't the same. He was, you know, it was that deal where if you're going against and DeMarcus Lawrence dealt with this exact thing, you're the guy opposite Micah Parsons. We need you to take advantage of your matchup and get home. And, and, and you know, sometimes there's a story that we don't know everything, but it wasn't, it wasn't awesome there. But if you can get his number to a good price, let's say 12 million. Now it totally changes my perception of Rashawn Gary being part of your defense. Because, because you know, now, now, okay, now you're getting like Dante Fowler's money from last year. Let's try it. You know, at that age.
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B
So you add that to the Cowboys defense and then in your mind you start thinking, okay, you got Quinn and Williams. Okay, you got Oso digazua. Hey, Solomon Thomas is still on this roster. Hold on a second. Oso Digazoo had also traded by the Cowboys to San Francisco for a third round pick. That's a dude who was making a lot of money. Kind of the same story. Was he playing to his paper? Probably not. But I thought you made a good point on the radio this week that. No, but keep in mind, last February he was the only defensive tackle worth a dang on this roster. They had to sign him to a deal that paid him 20 million a year. And so the Cowboys get a third that they didn't have. 92 overall. Doesn't sound great, but if you don't have a third round pick that Sounds better. And you're already paying two defensive tackles a lot of money in Clark and Williams, so that makes some sense there. It's just, I don't know, I pictured a rotation there with those guys. I understand if you want to take one of one of the dudes making 20 million off the books. And then Solomon Thomas, I know his numbers weren't great. He's traded to Tennessee. They swapped seventh round picks. Here's the thing again, qualifiers. Not a defensive coordinator. Coordinator, not a defensive analyst. But man, when I watched the Cowboys on the All 22, I loved the effort that Solomon Thomas gave me. If they were down 14, up, 14, tied, whatever. I think he was a great dude to have on your team. And he wouldn't cost him much, no doubt.
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And there's a lot of moving pieces here. I will tell you, on the surface, trading OSA for a third is not a great deal for me. I think if you look at the totality of, let's say a moving three year trend or two year trend, or even last year where we were a little disappointed with OSA's year after getting his money, I will say still, even in a down year for Odiggie Zua, he gets to the quarterback, he causes chaos. He beats double teams at a really high level, you know, comparatively speaking to other defensive tackles around the league. Now, his scheme fit. Okay, I don't know. But I do know at his age and at his quality, I got a real problem with trading him for a third because, well, a couple things. One, if you trade a guy, then all of the bonus accelerates and you can't June 1st it. This is important for any of our capologists out there. And, and, and we love this thing. Remember, if you release a guy, you can designate it as June 1st and then 20 million you can split into two years and go 10 and 10. And it doesn't kill your cap if you trade a guy. Well, now that signing bonus does all go into this year. You can't June 1 it. And so the first time I heard this trade George, I thought to myself, wow, they're freeing up a $20 million spot for Max Crosby. Or something along those lines. Okay, I see that. Then you look at the details of the contract and you're like, oh, no, they just took on 16 million in dead money. They really only freed up $4 million and they only got a third rounder for OSA. Now this is where I have to slow my roll and say there's got to be a reason. They basically send two guys from their defensive line away within 10 minutes of each other. Solomon Thomas goes to the 49ers with Matt Eberfluss and Solomon, or, excuse me, Osa goes to Matty Berfluse, and Solomon Thomas goes to White Cotton in Tennessee with Robert Sala, where, of course, Robert Sala knows Solomon Thomas because that's where Thomas began his career when he was the second or third pick overall by the Niners. So it's a small NFL community, but in the end, you just traded two nice pieces, in my opinion, for what appears to be very little on their. On their value. And I need to see why they did that. And I'm guessing you only do A if B is right around the corner. And so this trade, if we're sitting here in a month and we're saying, why did they even do that trade? I don't see any next step, then I think we're gonna be really frustrated. If, however, by tomorrow or the next day we find out they've got a better version of something that does fit here, then we will say, okay, well, now that makes sense. And we picked up a third round or two to make it happen. So lots of moving parts here. But the defensive line was going to be curious if they wanted to run this scheme. George, we were going to say, man, can you afford three $20 million defensive tackles? Does that make any sense? And who is playing edge for you? Well, now they've basically sent away a fourth for Rashawn Gary, recouped a third for. For osa. They maybe flipped an edge for a defensive tackle. They maybe the money's different. So again, lots happening. We're trying to see each individual move on its. On its own merits. And for me, OSA is one of my favorite players on this team. He's a class act, he plays hard, he's productive. So I hate that. But I also don't know what they had to. What they're getting back. And so I think there's more to this that is making me try to slow my roll and chill out and see what happens here.
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Yeah, fair. Okay, we're going to talk free agents in the next segment, but before we do the trade that has been taken off the books at the time of this taping, Max Crosby is still in Las Vegas as a member of the Raiders. The trade for two number ones to Baltimore fell through. He took the physical. This does happen from time to time. I can never remember it with a high profile player that has just been traded for two number ones. All sorts of people calling Foul on Baltimore, for all of a sudden having buyer's remorse. But you can call it whatever you want. They certainly have the right to do it up until when the season starts. And maybe their doctor really did say, man, I don't. I know it's a meniscus, but there's some other stuff going on with that knee. I don't like it. You just gave up two number ones for him. I'm telling you, he could have more knee trouble here late in his career. That's one theory. The other theory is Baltimore just made the trade and went, oh, crap, what do we just do? How do we get out of this? Either way, he's back on the market. And again, at the time of this taping, Bob, if it goes from two number ones to a one, I'm talking to Vegas. If I'm Dallas.
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Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. The physical aspect of it, because. Who's our cowboy hat doctor? What's his name?
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Dr. Cooper.
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Dr. Cooper. That's right. I should know that by now. I've only been.
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I like your name for him. Dr. Cowboy Hat. That's fine.
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Okay. I might. Look, I said this. When Micah. And his back. When he was traded to Green Bay, or actually before the trade to Green Bay, there was a constant talk on whether he's faking it or not and whether he really has a back injury. And of course, he was probably faking it because that's what you do in a hold in, which is what they have to do now with the cba. You can't hold out anymore. So my point then and it's my point now. If you've played in the NFL for five years, and Max Crosby, it's more than five years. And same with Micah now, you can't pass a physical based on having a perfectly. You can't play that position and have a perfect body. So it's the old bit where they can. They can pass you if they want to, they can fail you if they want to, and both will have some level of medical confirmation like you. If you look hard enough, we can find a reason to fail this guy. So let's start there. That doesn't mean you don't do the deal, because these guys are just. They just can't do this with their human bodies and have a clean bill of health. Now, does that mean they can't do their job? Of course not. These guys are machines. And there does come a point where your body sabotages your career. But most of these guys, like Max Crosby, do have things that when they're in their 50s and 60s, it's going to be a pain. They may need to get a joint replacement because they abused their body for a lot of money and a lot of glory. So I do think there is a health component where you would say Max Crosby, I mean, he's not. He's not perfect. He's not in mint condition. Are you sure you want to give, you know, first rounder for a guy who's a little bit beat up? And I would say that's where you trust the tape. You watch the tape of Max Crosby, you watch him wreck games and you say to yourself, yeah, yeah, if that's. If that. Just like you would with Micah if you're Green Bay, like, okay, this guy's got a bad back. I just saw him get four sacks in a game. You know, I. Okay, fine, whatever. So. So there's that. And once you get past that, then you say, the Ravens just honestly saw the Trey Hendrickson market. They were getting killed with everybody in the organization and outside it saying, how did you give two number ones for a guy if you could have just signed Trey Hendrickson? And I think most logic tells you that they got cold feet. Probably their owner did. And while it is definitely not following decorum to basically go back on your word or on a handshake deal, it does happen. It's not a great thing, but it does happen in this league. And in fact, I think the Raiders did the same thing about a decade ago when with an offensive lineman, Roger Saffold, as I recall, that they signed a big money and failed his physical and sent him back to, I want to say the Rams at the time or maybe Tennessee. I can't remember.
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It's happened before. I just can't remember. A high profile trade of a superstar who's rumored to be traded. Then all of a sudden he's traded and by the way, it's off.
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Well, and then think about it, George. It happens over the weekend of free agency. And so think of all the dominoes. Think of, do the Cowboys even consider a Rashawn Gary trade if Max Crosby is still on the board? Does. Do the Ravens keep some of their free agents if they are not committed to paying Max Crosby? Do they let Tyler Lindebaum sign with the Raiders, of all things? And so, you know, you have all these dominoes. It's very possible half the league was affected by what has gone down now. And so now getting to your question and where we are today with the Cowboys, but also the other teams that Thought they were in on Max Crosby. I know the Bears thought they were in. I know the Lions were hoping they were in. I think the Eagles thought they might be in on Max Crosby. Everybody wants a guy like that. So now how many of those teams have spent that money? How many of those teams want to go back to the table? Are they worried that the knee is. So they don't. They all don't have. Their doctors weren't there, so. So Dr. Cooper could either tell you run the other way or he could tell you, man, it kind of looks like a knee to me. I'm not worried about it at all. I would still do this sort of thing. So you do have an advantage. I don't know that it makes me feel great, because I think you had that same advantage. I thought, didn't he do the Jalen Smith reconstruction? And then they gave him a big extension, and then it looked like Jalen Smith's leg was falling off. So. So I don't want to look. Doctor, I'm sure you know, more doctors,
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they're basically told, predict the future. Could you. With this.
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Yeah.
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What's going to happen? Who the heck knows? I mean, yes, what the structure looks like now, but. Yeah, you're right.
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A
That's right. So back to your original question. The Cowboys allegedly offered a 1, a 2, and Osa Digi Zua for Max Crosby. The price is not the same now. The offers are going to be different and they're going to be lower. And so your question is, do you trade the 20th pick for Max Crosby now, now that you've struck out in free agency, now that you, you know, have had a week to see, you know, whether you have regrets or not, you have medical information, you and I cannot possibly know, George. And so the question is this. Can you find something to pick 20 that's even close to better than Max Crosby? And the answer is no. Absolutely not. No way. That guy doesn't exist in the draft because if he did, he'd be a top five pick.
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B
Is there still a team out there willing to give more than the Cowboys are willing to give? That's a possibility. But, man, the Raiders, I'm really ticked about this because for a team that's trying to rebuild, Holy smokes, they did it. They got two number ones for him. That's great work. And all of a sudden now they're back to the drawing board, and they may just get one number one and another pick somewhere second or third round.
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George. They might. They might be lucky to get a
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number one that may be all they get.
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A
Yeah, that's the thing is, is, you know, can you Even get pick 20 now, or does everybody now see it as, you know, the falling, the falling price tag at the Giraffe for somebody who has a medical thing come up? Yeah, it sucks for all parties involved. The Ravens look bad, but the Ravens apparently will get over it because now they get to keep their ones and get Trey Hendrickson. So it's a really interesting deal. It's kind of a blind game of poker now because you got to figure out what everyone else is offering. That in and of itself is going to be extremely interesting because I can't imagine there's a single team that was in the bidding that feels the same about the valuation. I think a lot of. I think there's blood in the water and the Sharks are thinking, man, maybe we can just offer a second and maybe we can get him. Who knows? Because the Raiders are not keeping him. The Raiders now have spent that money. They have moved on mentally, and they don't want this to go on for very long. So I don't think it will go on for very long. It's like the story in the NFL. And I think if you're the Cowboys, I think there's an opportunity here and at the right price. Pick 20. I think I'm in. I think I got to be in.
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B
And know this. If it happens, we will get together and have an emergency football podcast for sure if Max Crosby is coming to town. But as of yes of this taping, he is not. But man, what a story. And it had far reaching effects around the league outside of more than just Baltimore and Vegas. Okay, the Cowboys have made some free agent signings and there's a little bit of help on the way. Maybe not the big giant cannonball splash that some were waiting for, but let's talk about it coming up next.
- [32:28]
A
Square up a new podcast from Andre Berto.
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B
Yo, what's going on, man? It's Andre Berto, two time world champ
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A
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B
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in a state where underdog fantasy operates. Terms apply. Concerned with your play, call 1-800-MY-RESET or visit ncpgambling.org in Arizona, call 1Next Step 1-800-639-8783 or text Next Step to 83342 in New York. Call the 247 Hope Line at 1-87-7-8, HOPE NY or text Hopeny to 467369. Okay, Bob Jerry Jones said he was going to break the bank this offseason and Cowboy fans thought, really? Okay, well, what does that mean? Does that mean Jalen Phillips or Nakobe Dean or Devin Lloyd? What if Kenneth Walker is out there for the taking? Well, the Cowboys most high profile free agent that's coming to town as it stands right now is Jalen Thompson, the safety from Arizona. And I like him. That's he's immediate help for that position. Three years, 36 million. Okay. That's a good start to free agents. We're just going to talk about him. That's a, that's a good signing, I think, by the Cowboys. And Ryan Smith, who comes over from Arizona, very familiar with him and I'm sure he was in the air of Christian Parker saying, hey, this guy, I guarantee you he had 95 tackles last year. He can play the run. He can be the dude that we're looking for, that you're looking for at safety.
- [35:06]
A
He's a dog, isn't he? Yeah, I like him at that's that I didn't I'll be honest, because of working for Monday Night Football those years and trying to get a feel for, you know, the entire league, we didn't get a ton of Cardinals games, so I don't think I've I've studied him in probably since the 22 or 23 season. But, but I was very impressed with my little side project on Monday night to go dig into Jalen Thompson's tape. And, and, you know, when you think about the Cardinals secondary, in the event you ever think about it, you think about Buddha Baker, right? And. And, you know, this is. I'm not saying this is Buddha Baker, but they would interchange their safeties in a way where, first of all, they want three safeties on the field. And I think the Cowboys do too now. And that means two safeties and a big nickel, which is. Which is basically a hybrid player. I think, you know, for the, just for the fans, we always thought of the nickelback as a smallish corner, and I think that's evolving. Obviously, Jordan Lewis was a smallish corner. Duron Bland is a little bit bigger, but I kind of like him the most in the slot. But I think what Christian Parker and Vic Fangio and a lot of these, you know, modern defenses are doing now, especially because offenses are so in love with 12 personnel and 13 personnel, is you don't want to have too many corners out there. You want some. Some dudes who are ready to mix it up? Now, that's the guys who mix it up. I think we call dogs with a W. And because they, they are not scared of contact, they're not scared of putting their body on the line. They love to tackle. They love to blow us up, as we might say the BSU in the notes. It means we're blowing stuff up. And, and, and, you know, I think he does all those things really well, but maybe more exciting about him for me is that if you do play him in a deep middle or a deep half, I think he's really, really smart in coverage situations. There's a play. I don't know how much you looked at him, but I did a piece on my sturm stack where I tried to find like a dozen plays to show people the different components of his game. And there were a couple snaps I'd like to tell you about, but the one in coverage, actually there were two of them where the one that jumps out at me is Brock Purdy and the Niners. So they have trips to the right and they have George Kittle to the left. And usually when you see that concept, you are attempting to use one side to, you know, deceive and the other side, you know, is. Is where you actually want to go with the ball. So what they would do is they would run Kittle on a deep in and against single high. You see George Kittle as a lone wolf off to the left, and now he's running a dig right in front of you, and you're at like 20 yard depth. The dig is at 15, and you just know that's where Purdy wants to go with the ball. And so you step up. Well, what does a good route combination do? Well, then it puts like a post behind you, and the second you step up, they throw it over your head to a wide open post player. And what happened there, which I think is fantastic, is he knew that they were going to try that. And he takes two steps into Kiddo, but then peels back and breaks up the pass behind him to Ricky Pearsall. And it's one of those plays where not only is it a great pass breakup, but it probably should have been an interception. He didn't come down with the ball, but that just tells me the football IQ of Jalen Thompson. He's a very, very smart player at all three levels, George. He can play the deep, he can play the middle rover, and he can play that. That big, big nickel where he's BSU out there blowing stuff up and causing chaos. For a guy who, you know, if he's lucky, he weighs 200 pounds. So not a big guy, but kind of cut like a running back. He's not skinny. Got some good body armor.
- [39:58]
B
No, I like it. And that 23 season you mentioned, he had four interceptions that year. He broke on the ball really well that year. This is a good and a bad. His tackle total since 2020. And every year it's. It's around. It's somewhere between 80 and 100, 121, 110, 78, 98, 95. The downside to that is that's a lot of car crashes that he's been a part of. So, yeah, he's trying to be balanced about it. Yeah, I think. I think he's fine this year and probably next year. He does have, you know, he's taken some shots.
- [40:42]
A
Yes. Yeah, the. The job that he does requires availability. We all know that. That's every football player's job. And I think I had him at about 5,000 snaps in the last five years. And, you know, a thousand snaps is a ton of football. And he does that pretty much every year. So I don't want to jinx him. And I do know he missed a couple games this year, I think, with a hamstring perhaps. And so those soft tissue things are going. But for the most part, this is a guy who's been able to stay on the field, stay healthy. The Cardinals swear by him. You know, obviously they. They have a coaching change, so. So they're moving on. But. But the people in Arizona, you know, they. They were. They were pleased with Jalen Thompson out of Washington State in that supplemental draft in 2019. He served them well. And now I think he raises the bar quite nicely at the safety position. And then the next day they go get another safety, the Texas Longhorn PJ Lock, who. Who is not a guy who's been able to stay healthy. So. So you kind of have one of each. Now. The price tag reflects that, but I found out that PJ Locke had the dreaded spinal fusion last off season and, and, you know, did not play a lot this year because the Broncos safeties stayed pretty healthy until right about December 1st, and then they lost one of their safeties, Roberts. I'm trying to remember who the. Not who. Not the. Yeah, not. Not Hufanga, the former 49er safety, but the other one they had, he was lost for the year, I think, with a torn peck. And so PJ Lock entered and played pretty well and then had a big interception against Josh Allen in the playoff game this year in Denver. And so, you know, I'm fine with some of these under the radar signings as getting guys in here who have done stuff elsewhere and can help you, but I do think they are. They are set up across the board now to kind of go into the draft with an open mind because somebody said, hey, they took two safeties and they kept Malik Hooker. Does that mean you're out of, like, Caleb Downs if he falls? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Are you, you know, does. Does. Does Rashawn Gary take you out of the rush edge market? No. No. What I want to do in free agency and in the trade market is, is get each position on my defense to at least baseline NFL. And once I get there, and I know that's a low bar, especially a linebacker, right now, we need to do better. But once I get there at 12 and 20, if I still have them, then I want to say, okay, corner safety, linebacker, defensive end, and now maybe even defensive tackle. I want the two best playmaking possible stars I can find with those two first round picks. And I don't want to say I have to have a linebacker. I want to say I want to add two special defenders, regardless of position, and just continue to raise the level of this defense. But I think we're learning as you try to do that, George, you can't marry yourself to one idea. You kind of have to spin a lot of plates simultaneously.
- [44:27]
B
Yeah. So those are the Lock and Thompson at safety, the two biggest pieces The Cowboys have acquired at this point in free agency a Tito Ogbanya. You mentioned him. Nose tackle from the chargers. More productive two years ago than he was here. Big dude, though. 320. And if this is the new defense you're running, I think he, he rotates in there and especially at that nose tackle spot. That's a guy that's going to get a lot of snaps this year. Probably more than Tyrus Wheat, who was also signed. He used to play here. Just kind of a guy. What'd you think of the Sam Howell signing? A guy that Philly gave up two picks for from Minnesota last year. And there's your backup quarterback who's. Yeah, he's pretty good, but I didn't see that coming.
- [45:19]
A
Yeah. So he's played for. This will be his fifth NFC team in five years. Wow. Washington, Seattle, Minnesota, Philadelphia, and now Dallas. So, so that's.
- [45:34]
B
He, he's.
- [45:35]
A
He's going to have an awesome pair of. Or a drawer of practice shorts. He'll have the entire nfc. It will be beautiful. You know, I like it. I don't know what to make of it, but I remember a month ago we were talking about this on the radio and it's just like, look, I don't mind Joe Milton. Joe Milton is a talented kid who seems quite bright and still has a chance. And I don't mind Shotti working with him, but I also, I want him pushed. I want him to win his job. If he wins his job. And that's what Sam Howell is here to do. Maybe Will Greer, I don't know. You got four, four guys who have played quarterback at big time levels. And now I'm looking for one behind Dak. And it's March. So between now and the last day of training camp, show me which one of you is my number two. And I would say across the board, I'm not afraid to cut any of you. And I just, I, you know, I just think that that's probably the way to roll.
- [46:41]
B
And if you need to win three or four games in the middle of a season because something happens to Dak, I would, right now, I would so much more trust Sam Howell than I would Joe.
- [46:51]
A
I agree. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. It's just, I, Joe is a tease.
- [46:57]
B
Who.
- [46:58]
A
His YouTube cut ups are amazing. But that's not really how you want quarterback. You want quarterback to be a consistent level that you can count on, not YouTube cut ups. YouTube cut ups are very deceiving because as you can see, if you've ever seen my basketball cut Ups.
- [47:16]
B
I have.
- [47:17]
A
I make every shot. Well, it's, it's impressive because you edit out the missed shots and that. There's a reason we do that. So you know, hey, when my son
- [47:27]
B
was getting recruited, that's what the coaches would always tell him. Don't show me your highlight reel, show me a game.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [47:33]
B
That was the thing.
- [47:33]
A
You know, they do that in radio, too. Don't, don't edit together little eight second things where you're ripping someone. I want to hear a full hour
- [47:42]
B
show, see if I can stick with
- [47:44]
A
it for a whole. Yeah, exactly. Consistency.
- [47:47]
B
Okay, let's talk about some guys who got away coming up next. I'm not saying, okay, I know how to spend your money, Jerry, but I kind of do. And let's bounce a couple off of you coming up next, Bob, and ask you what the heck happened.
- [48:02]
A
I love it. Tired of partisan noise. America's more divided than ever. But independent Americans is adding light to contrast all that heat.
- [48:12]
B
Independent Americans. Daily news with army veteran Paul Rykoff.
- [48:16]
A
Pressing issues of the day with leaders who are shaping what America will be in the future. We're going to bring the righteous media five eyes. Independence, integrity, information, inspiration and impact. Join.
- [48:28]
B
Join the movement. Independent Americans from Believe, Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Okay. The NFL's New Year's Day. A new season. We are now in 2026 for real in the National Football League. The new year has started. You have to be under the cap. You've got the draft fast approaching and you're still trying to piecemeal together your roster through free agency. Jerry said he's ready to break the bank. He said he was ready to be different this offseason. It's not over yet. But I got to be honest, Bob, I was. I was really hoping for a nakobe. Dean, you sold me on him. I did a little bit of studying on Devin Lloyd and.
- [49:13]
A
Yep.
- [49:15]
B
And look, you said going into the draft, hey, you don't have to take a linebacker. By doing what they have done right now, I almost think they have to take linebackers. That was the most offensive position about this defense last year. Just terrible across the board. And man, I think somebody like Nicobi Dean and Devin Lloyd could have made a big difference with this team. And Dean cost the same as Jalen Thompson and Devin Lloyd was just a little bit more. 45 million for three years. You can't tell me Nicobe Dean wanted to play in Vegas more than he wanted to play in Dallas. What happened there, Bob? Was there just smoke and no fire?
- [50:01]
A
No, I mean, if you believe what they say, they put out an offer that was almost identical to the Raiders. We see now that The Raiders guaranteed 20 million at signing and 23 overall. So they basically guaranteed the first two years, which is pretty standard stuff. And if, you know, we're to a point now where guys would rather play for Las Vegas than Dallas, that's. That's kind of a kick in the groin now if you want to especially,
- [50:31]
B
hey, I got your defensive coordinator here who, you know, is that in some ways a kind of, oh, Christian Parker couldn't land the Kobe Dean.
- [50:41]
A
Well, maybe we flip it around and if I'm an Eagle and I have two offers and one will make all of Philadelphia hate me and one, they won't care if I go play for the Raiders.
- [50:54]
B
Okay.
- [50:55]
A
Do you do that?
- [50:57]
B
Okay. He didn't want to see his brothers twice a year.
- [51:01]
A
Well, yeah. And you know, look, here's the thing, and I wanted to tell you this earlier, but I'm happy we saved it for here because this fits. There is a reason the Cowboys. It's not a shock that the Cowboys haven't been in free agency. It's frustrating, but it's not a shock. They haven't played in free agency since Brandon Carr. The reason is that Steven and Jerry hate the free agency process. They hate it. And the reason they hate it is because they don't get to dictate how it's going to go. They love, which we know they love the Art of War of a one on one negotiation with Micah Parsons or DeMarcus Lawrence or Dak Prescott or any of these guys who are under contract or still Cowboys. And they dictate terms. Remember this with DEZ in Jay Z in a nightclub in New York City, like the Jones boys love negotiating with guys who have limited leverage. They love it. And that's why almost every big contract the Cowboys have done over the last decade plus is with guys who are already in their building and who they can. Heck, they can even circumvent the agent and go right to them. They can even act like they don't even know the agent's name and go right to them. They can. They can have everything on their terms and they can basically grind the player into a powder because the player gets exhausted and he just wants to be part of football. His agent gets mad. And Stephen and Jerry have been doing business like that since 2012. Well, free agency is different. Free agency doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care what you're comfortable doing. And it definitely isn't gonna give you two hours to go have lunch and think about it and then come back with an answer. It is fast. It is Jerry Maguire telephone scene where bro, do you want this deal or not? Because this deal is here for 30 seconds, and then I'm calling that other place and we're taking their offer. So can you go to this number or not? And so I imagine when they said, we're getting back into free agency, they probably had a whiteboard. And they said, nicole Dean, we will go to 10 a year. But if we really need to, let's go to 12 a year. And that's our final price. And with this guy, we'll do this and with this. Well, once the auction starts, George, what you put on the whiteboard is irrelevant. What it takes is what Carolina did. And I'm not saying it's always smart to overpay, but Carolina said, we are not leaving this auction without Jalen Phillips. We are not. And everybody's like, you went to that number. Yeah. And we got him. We've got him. We can tell our season ticket holders we got Jalen Phillips. And you should be believing the team because we are willing to overpay to get a guy. And so in my opinion, when Nicobe Dean, they thought that they could dictate terms. And what should have happened if he was your best choice at linebacker of fixing that spot? Because how different is our conversation right now if they have Jalen Thompson and Nicobi Dean and Rashawn Gary, now we're like, okay, you fixed three pieces you
- [54:33]
B
haven't fixed, but you have helped all three levels of your defense.
- [54:36]
A
Yes, yes. And you still got your two number ones. And let's freaking go. Well, what you should have done then is say, whatever the Raiders are offering you, we will do better. And now you have to decide at the price of, let's say, a million a year, 3 million over a three year deal. We're going to give you that over and above the best Raiders offer. And then you can say, would I rather take 3 million more American dollars or. And upset my fan base in Philadelphia? But what do I care? Because I'm now a cowboy and I now made more money, or do I want to take $3 million less and go to Las Vegas? Which, you know, mental anguish of what the fans are going to say in my mentions on Twitter. And I just. I think if you haven't participated in free agency since 2012, it's because you don't understand how free agency works.
- [55:29]
B
Yeah, I Understand? But that's what pisses me off about Jerry, and I think that's what makes all the other Cowboy fans mad. I don't want to hear about another gas deal or real estate deal or yacht. What's a yacht? Whatever. I don't want to hear about it because this is the business deal I want you to win. I don't care if you get a great deal on land in Frisco or the promised gas land in East Texas. No, damn it. I want a linebacker who can run and hit, and if you're not alone, if it costs you 14 million a year, then it costs you 14 million a year. Go get him and figure it out. Yes, that's my big thing. And I know it's not over yet, but damn, I was hoping. No, but that was harder. For more than this.
- [56:12]
A
The linebackers that are free are cleaned out. So now you have very few choices left in free agency. Or you can trade more draft picks to help you get a veteran linebacker, which worked so well with Kenneth Murray, or you can wait for the draft and hope it falls. Right. And by the way, it's a great, great linebacker draft for sure. But do you want to use a first on. On a linebacker? That's okay. Well, you might need to. And you still might need more linebackers. So. Yeah, it's disappointing, and a lot of fans are upset. And Jerry should not be saying things like bust the budget unless he plans on busting the budget just on one guy.
- [56:54]
B
Just one guy.
- [56:55]
A
You know, blow the doors down, overpay a guy and say, yep, but we got him. And that was what we intended to do.
- [57:01]
B
Hey, you're going to think they always put.
- [57:03]
A
But they want to win every financial deal so bad. I know. And this is. And this is why they chase away their own players, is because to them, it's a fun game. And to the players, it's like their life. This their one chance at getting big money. And honestly, that's what the MICA thing felt like. That's what the DAK thing feels like. It's like we're not even worried about market value. We're worried about winning against our own guys and probably pissing them off. And that's what. That's what makes the Jones approach to this very, very frustrating.
- [57:38]
B
Yeah. Heck, even Reek Wolin, I know Philadelphia probably overpaid 15 million just for one year, but. Okay, I'm trying to get someone I know he'll cover somebody and hit somebody of who's another one of. Okay, you're going to think this is really insane. Was he even on the Cowboys radar even though he was the super bowl mvp? I know you just did a deal for Javante Williams, but Kenneth Walker, the third, to me, 43 million for three years. It's like, oh, geez, that would. That would really be so. I know it's offense, but, well, man, you would score 38 a game if you had him here.
- [58:20]
A
Yeah. The key to all this, George, is. Is very simple, and that is that they've lost credibility with their fan base. And there's a reason for that. Because the fans want to see the baby. They don't want to hear about the pregnancy. They want to see the proceeds, as we've said in the past. And I think every fan has a right to feel that way, and I think it now puts them in a position where usually when there's unrest in fanland, sometimes they overreact, which, by the way, overreact to, like, appease people. And that might mean they're more likely to be on the phone with the Raiders right now or who knows. Who knows what's out there that we haven't even thought about? Because players are available all the time, and you aren't aware that they're available until the trade is done. And so I imagine they're. They're now scanning carefully like Green Bay was going to lose Quay Walker to free agency. And I'm not a huge Quay Walker guy myself, but the point is, he got paid pretty well here also to the Raiders, and I think he got maybe 15 a year, maybe 3 for 45 is his deal to play linebacker. Anyway, on Saturday, the Packers did a deal with the Colts for Zaire Franklin, and that's kind of the Jalen Thompson of his office, because, you know, Zaire Franklin is like a lifetime Indianapolis Colts linebacker who's been starting for them for four years. And I'll be honest with you, not super familiar with his work, because I'm not watching Colts linebackers very diligently. I'm an NFC guy. But then you go look at him and you're like, okay, well, this is a process and a plan where they're like, we know we're not paying $45 million for our own guy, but before he leaves, let's secure his replacement. That's what you have to do. The Cowboys, you know, overestimated their ability to. Like I said, they thought they could dictate terms in free agency, but unfortunately, the teams that do that have great relationships with agents, and they do this every year, and they Build up a rapport. And I'm telling you, if you want to play in free agency, you best not torque off every NFL agent in your other business dealings. Because I got the impression over the last 10 years, and I'm sorry if I'm going on and on here, but it just. It. I. I just can't forget that they were, like, proud that they had not talked to DeMarcus Lawrence's agent in over a year when they signed that extension. And they were like, like, that's a good thing or something. And then they're, like, proud that they don't know Micah Parsons agent's name. And I'm sorry, if you want to participate in free agency, you've gotta. You've almost gotta take Jerry out of the process. And I know that's probably never gonna happen, but you've gotta forge relationships with the guys who control free agency. And as we now know, because their names are on every Adam Schefter and Ian Rapoport tweet, the agents control free agency.
- [61:42]
B
Absolutely.
- [61:42]
A
It's their big thing.
- [61:44]
B
That's how you get them.
- [61:45]
A
So, by the way, that's why the Cowboys never participate, because they are disgusted with open auctions, with agents, and being manipulated and being feeling like they're not in control. And do you think Jerry Jones wants to not feel in control about any aspect of his life? He has everything on his terms all the time. All the time. I promise. His lawn clippings are bagged exactly how he demands it. And so now this punk agent is going to tell me that I've got to put my bid in now or I'm not going to get the player. I'm not doing that. You know, we don't make decisions that way. Well, then you're not getting the player. So it is what it is. But this, to me, losing to Kobe Dean, is because you're not good at free agency since Dion, and this has been building a long, long time. And now you're trying to get back into a game, and the game has passed you by, and so that's kind of where we are.
- [62:49]
B
I was hoping for better, because remember I was the dumb SOB at the super bowl who said, hey, Bob, I think the Cowboys are going to be here next year. If you're going to get to the super bowl, you got to take some risk. You got to go out and get some guys who can play. And. And it's not over yet. Hey, maybe Matt is still coming to town. Who knows?
- [63:05]
A
Not even close to over yet. I know, but it's early in March and by the time we meet again, maybe they have a couple of new starters. Hopefully they have most of their draft picks left. But, but, but I think we're doing a post game show midway through the second quarter and we've got to let this thing percolate because there's a lot, a lot of road left before we're all congregating in Oxnard saying, why don't we have any linebackers on our roster?
- [63:36]
B
Well, I hope we're not saying that. And okay, I'll equate it to a swim race. You're right, the race is not over yet. But after watching the first lap, I'm like, well, I don't know. But that team with the star in their helmet had a terrible start. That was not a good start and that's why they're falling behind here. And yeah, they can catch up, but that was a crappy start and they didn't do much at the beginning of the race. But we should Cowboys too.
- [64:00]
A
Prepares you for being a little bit behind, I suppose.
- [64:04]
B
Yeah, I guess so. And we should note this because I don't think we have mentioned that they, they, as far as some resigns, they did resign Sam Williams in Edge, who, yes, that may be a good signing. I'm not real high on him, but maybe, and then the thing that maybe this is what I'm really upset about is Dax sweating in Italy is off and I don't know what to do with myself.
- [64:27]
A
Man, I was thinking about you. I was hoping you were going to be okay. It wasn't going to ruin your spring break.
- [64:33]
B
I mean, to me that's the big NFL wedding of the off season. Not Tay Tay and Travis, it's Dak.
- [64:41]
A
So the NFL media always tries to connect it to how he's going to play the next year. So does being settled in marriage, does that make you the better quarterback or does having the girl off your mind and focused on football help the Cowboys? What?
- [65:02]
B
I don't know. I don't, I, I don't think it's good. I think it's heartbreaking for him.
- [65:07]
A
Yeah.
- [65:08]
B
And whether I don't in, you know, not getting into whose fault it was. But the other thing, there's kids involved and that's an emotional roller coaster of, okay, is it your weekend? And that and just. Yeah, it just, it really does make me sick. I want the best for these guys and that's.
- [65:25]
A
No, I do too.
- [65:26]
B
That's not the best and rough week
- [65:28]
A
around here for relationships and sports.
- [65:31]
B
I just think the super bowl is going up in flames and we're not even to April yet.
- [65:35]
A
Bob, you're not allowed to adjust that so quickly. We're. We at least have to get to like, St. Patrick's Day before you take
- [65:43]
B
back your get through that now. I'll even give you the draft. Let me get to the draft and then I'll say whether or not that was a good thing to say, whether
- [65:51]
A
the Super Bowl's still on.
- [65:54]
B
I love it. Still maybe waving it off. Oh, man. Well, at least we got together and talked all this out. And I feel better now. And yeah, thanks for mobilizing. Yes, we will mobilize next week if there's a Max thing or something else that we don't even know about.
- [66:12]
A
But if there's not. If there's not, we'll. We'll take spring break and we'll be back.
- [66:17]
B
We'll be on the beach.
- [66:18]
A
Yeah. South together.
- [66:20]
B
Okay.
- [66:20]
A
That's right.
- [66:21]
B
Thanks to Peter Welton for putting up with this. And it was fun. Always is when we get together as football friends. The Musers the podcast Cowboys Edition. Shot Clocks Big shots, upsets, aces TGL playoffs are here. First Atlanta drives, starts their repeat run
- [66:43]
A
against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then Rory's Boston Common golf and Tigers
- [66:47]
B
Jupiter Lynx face off in their playoff debuts. Who will advance Keep up its playoffs tune in Tuesday, March 17th at 6:30pm and 9:00pm only on ESPN. And the ESPN applied.