EP4 - "The Question"

Summary

The Musers The Podcast – Episode 4: "The Question"

Host/Author: Cumulus Podcast Network
Release Date: July 16, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 4 of The Musers The Podcast, titled "The Question," hosts George Dunham, Craig “Junior” Miller, and Gordon Keith delve deep into the intricate dynamics of their long-standing relationships. This episode stands out as a candid exploration of personal histories, on-air chemistry, and the evolution of their friendships over three decades. Through heartfelt conversations and humorous anecdotes, the trio offers listeners an intimate glimpse into the bonds that have sustained their collaborative efforts on both radio and podcasting platforms.

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Addressing the Burning Question: Does George Hate Gordon?

The episode kicks off with Craig setting the stage for an off-air discussion addressing a frequently asked question by their listeners: Does George really hate Gordon that much?

• Craig Miller [02:02]: "Does George really hate Gordon that much?"
• George Dunham [02:23]: "Sometimes I really am mad at him. A lot of it is radio, theater, our back and forth... But no, I don't hate him. Of course we love each other, but we've had our challenges through the years."

George acknowledges moments of frustration but emphasizes the underlying love and respect between him and Gordon. Gordon, surprised by the revelation, clarifies his perspective:

• Gordon Keith [03:18]: "Does George really hate me that much? Sure, you can jump in on this."

The conversation reveals that early interactions were strained, primarily due to on-air antics and personal sensitivities. However, pivotal moments, such as Gordon’s intervention during a series of unsettling prank calls, showcased the depth of their friendship and mutual support.

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Pivotal Moments: From Pranks to Trust

One of the most significant revelations in this episode revolves around a series of prank calls that deeply affected George. These calls not only targeted him but also involved his family, leading to considerable personal distress.

• George [07:07]: "I felt betrayed, furious... I knew Gordon's on my side."

Gordon admits his role in mitigating the situation by erasing the problematic audio clips, demonstrating his loyalty and the strength of their bond.

• Gordon [09:33]: "I didn't want that stuff being out there that you have to worry about..."

This incident marked a turning point, fostering trust and affirming that their relationship extended beyond professional collaboration.

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Family Dynamics and Personal Struggles

The hosts delve into how their family backgrounds influenced their relationships and careers. George discusses the challenges of balancing family perceptions with his on-air persona.

• George [15:50]: "Your dad's voice saying, because that's my son."

Gordon shares his experiences growing up as a preacher’s kid, grappling with guilt over his on-air antics potentially affecting his family's reputation.

• Gordon [16:39]: "I was always worried that I was going to have my dad say, 'son, can you come here?'"

A touching moment unfolds as Gordon recounts a conversation with his late father, who expressed unwavering pride in his son's career, despite any reservations.

• Gordon [18:54]: "I am so proud of you that you found something to do with your talent that people appreciate."

George responds by highlighting the supportive roles both families played in their lives and careers, emphasizing mutual respect and gratitude.

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Shared Love of Music: A Bonding Force

Music emerges as a significant common thread that strengthens the trio's relationships. George shares his journey with music, inspired by Gordon’s encouragement to use his talents for charitable causes.

• George [22:33]: "Gordon inspired me to do something good with it... try to do something good with it for charitable efforts like our big concert, Jump Jam."

Gordon praises George’s musical endeavors, encouraging him to further explore his creative side while also reflecting on his own missed opportunities for genuine appreciation.

• Gordon [12:16]: "I was not genuine enough... how about giving you a genuine thank you."

Their mutual appreciation for music not only facilitates personal growth but also serves as a platform for philanthropy, exemplifying their commitment to giving back to the community.

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Career Reflections and the Future of the Podcast

As seasoned professionals in their 50s, the hosts contemplate the longevity of their careers and the future of their podcast.

• Gordon [47:56]: "I can't imagine myself being retired either... it's a hard decision to make."

George expresses a sense of responsibility towards future generations, including his role as a grandfather, which adds a layer of introspection to his commitment.

• George [48:05]: "I am a grandfather... I feel a responsibility to that generation, too."

Craig reflects on his desire for his daughter to understand the value of work, highlighting the intergenerational impact of their careers.

• Craig [50:16]: "I have this weird need to have my daughter, who is three, know at some point in her life that I worked right."

The conversation underscores their dedication to their work, the challenges of contemplating retirement, and the desire to leave a meaningful legacy both professionally and personally.

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Humorous Anecdotes and On-Air Dynamics

Interspersed with serious discussions are lighthearted stories that showcase the trio's enduring camaraderie and humor. From pranks at the Grand Canyon to playful debates about classic Beatles songs, these moments highlight their ability to maintain a fun and engaging dynamic despite years of collaboration.

• Gordon [43:02]: "We were truly on the edge of the Grand Canyon."
• George [43:14]: "If I'm going off this cliff, damn it, he's going with me."

Their shared history is filled with memorable incidents that not only entertained their listeners but also solidified their friendships, making their on-air chemistry a cornerstone of their success.

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Conclusion

Episode 4, "The Question," masterfully balances introspection with humor, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the complexities and strengths within The Musers trio. Through honest conversations about past conflicts, personal growth, and mutual support, George, Craig, and Gordon reaffirm the foundation of their enduring partnership. This episode not only answers listener curiosities but also deepens the connection between the hosts and their audience, setting the stage for more enriching discussions in future episodes.

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Notable Quotes:

• George [02:23]: "Sometimes I really am mad at him. A lot of it is radio, theater, our back and forth... But no, I don't hate him."
• Gordon [10:24]: "You are a good man. And I think that those two words are the most important words that a guy can ever hear."
• George [22:33]: "Gordon inspired me to do something good with it for charitable efforts like our big concert, Jump Jam."
• Gordon [18:54]: "I am so proud of you that you found something to do with your talent that people appreciate."
• George [48:05]: "I am a grandfather... I feel a responsibility to that generation, too."

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Stay Tuned:
New episodes of The Musers The Podcast happen every Wednesday. Make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you listen. Connect with the hosts on social media or via email at [e-mail].

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Produced by Peter Welpton

Transcript

[Craig]

My name is Happy Gilmore. I haven't swung a club in years.

[George]

You know what you gotta do? Grip it and rip it or.

[Gordon]

Oh, now that is some Happy Gilmore.

[George]

Everyone is talking about the comeback kid. Happy Gilmore.

[Gordon]

Happy Knee. Yeah, baby.

[George]

Happy Gilmore. The second of only on Netflix July 25th rated PT3 may be inappropriate for children under 13. Hey, hey, hey. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

[Gordon]

Put it in front of your mouth there. There you go. Perfect.

[George]

I know how to talk into a microphone.

[Gordon]

All right. The Musers, the Podcast.

[George]

Episode four, the Question.

[Craig]

Welcome to episode four of the the Podcast. We are the Musers. I'm Craig.

[George]

I'm George.

[Gordon]

I'm Gordon.

[Craig]

We have to have an off air discussion about whether we're going to keep that or not. We're going to each identify ourselves.

[George]

I laugh at it every time. I don't know.

[Gordon]

That's fine.

[Craig]

Well, for the last 30 years, we've hosted a morning radio show in Dallas on the Ticket, the all sports station, AKA America's favorite radio station. And now we're trying our hand at podcasting. For those of you who may not be familiar with us, we thought in these first few episodes we would help you get acquainted with our stories and by interviewing each other. And for those of you who are familiar with us, we thought maybe these interviews would give you some extra insight into our lives and careers and relationships. So in episode two, Gordo interviewed me and George about our background. In episode three, George interviewed Gordon and me about our shared history. And today I get to interview George and Gordon about their relationship over the years.

[Gordon]

Boom, boom.

[Craig]

Guys ready for this?

[George]

I think so.

[Gordon]

Sure.

[Craig]

Because you know, I throw fastballs.

[George]

Okay, hit us.

[Craig]

Well, I want to go back to the beginning of your relationship in a bit, but I have to start this episode with a question that over the years, without a doubt, has been asked me the most by people who listen to our radio show. And that is, does George really hate Gordon that much?

[Gordon]

So it's not even a question of does George really hate Gordon. It's just, does he hate him that much?

[George]

My answer to that has always been sometimes. Sometimes I really am mad at him. A lot of it is radio, theater, our back and forth. But sometimes I really do disagree with whatever's coming out of his mouth hole and I try to debate him, which is, you might as well fight a shark. It's the same thing. You can't debate Gordon. He's too good at it. And. And has a. As a way of making you look pretty bad. Pretty Quickly. But yeah, no, I don't hate him. Of course we love each other, but we've had our challenges through the years. I think that's safe.

[Gordon]

This is all news to me. I didn't know any of this. Yeah. So is the question also posed to me, does George really hate me that much?

[Craig]

Sure, you can jump in on this. I never get it the other way. I never get. Does Gordon hate George that much?

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[George]

By the end of this episode you will see that I don't hate Gordon. But we will. I think this is. I feel. I felt like I was going to be on a couch for this one because early on there was. It was not easy. I will just say that when we started, it really wasn't. I took things. A lot of it was on me taking it way too personally. But yeah, I had to. But I'll explain today, there were several times where you showed me what kind of person you were and that the on air stuff did not stick after that point. But we had to get to that point.

[Gordon]

Yes, we did. And our relationship has certainly changed over the years.

[George]

Yes.

[Gordon]

You know, early on. Yes. You mentioned your whatever culpability that you feel on that. And I can't speak to that. I can speak to my culpability which is, yeah, I was not sensitive enough to how the other person was feeling about the radio bits or the bit of, you know, ridiculous sitcommy type stuff that I'm doing on there. You know, poking the bear.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

As it were. And, and yeah, I did not have enough consideration for human feelings. I think that's what y' all call them on Earth.

[George]

Yeah, something like that. But no, I think it made for good radio and I would put it in a compartment of. It's just that it's just radio. He doesn't really mean it and it's just radio. But I really, I really did struggle with it sometimes and we've never. This is what guys do sometimes. We don't always talk about it and you and I have talked it out through the years. Maybe we should start when I realized you were really are a good person. Should we. Should we do that? And then we'll work backwards.

[Gordon]

This is a few weeks ago. Go ahead, tell the story. It's a great story.

[George]

It was just took 30 years a few days back. No, I mean early. I was the. I'm an easy target. I understand that for a number of reasons. And like I said, I would take it really personally and I really, I really did think this in the early days of the ticket gosh I, I guess Gordon just really doesn't like me or he doesn't, he doesn't like the type of person I am or something. And that's fine. We can still work together and I'll just kind of keep him at arm's length. And that's just who he is. And he likes, you know, cutting people and that's just the way it goes. But we. One of our early pranks in the Ticket, we used to prank call each other. Some shows would call other shows at our little radio station in Dallas. And one particular host thought it'd be funny to have one of his friends prank call me. And he, it was ridiculous. It was a terrible voice and it didn't fool me. And the first time he called me, I said, hey, I know you're a friend of one of our talk show hosts at the Ticket. Stop doing whatever this is. Then the next night, it was the phone call and he said all these really strange things just to get my reaction. But then he started getting my, like my family involved, like, hey, put your son on the phone, let me talk to him. And then that, you know, got my defense mechanism. I'm gonna just, you know, hung up on him. And I went to our friend and I said, is this you? Because if it's not, I'm gonna call the police and have them know, trace where this call's coming from. This is starting to creep me out a little bit. No, no, it's not me. And I got like two more phone calls. We've never talked about this on our radio station and I, I guess it's okay to talk about it here.

[Gordon]

Hell yeah. We can do whatever we want.

[George]

Do what we want.

[Gordon]

We own this baby.

[George]

And so they broke it to me as we finished our show. And at that time, he was working on a show that was right after ours. And he said, hey, you need to stick around because that was me. It was a friend of mine and we're going to play. And I just felt so betrayed, furious. And you saw me, Gordon, and how upset I was, and I found out that you went back and erased all of them. And I found that out from our program. We have never talked about this.

[Gordon]

We have not. No, no.

[George]

And our program director told me, I said, I don't ever want any of that played on the air. That's messing with my family. That's crossing the line. And if that's funny, my reaction to being upset that someone may be a threat to my at the time, seven year old son that I don't want to work here anymore. I mean, I was ready to just leave. And he said, it's not going to happen. You should know this, that Gordon went in the production room and he raced all of it. So that was the moment that I knew, okay, Gordon's on my side. It's. Don't take it personally. We're joking around when we're on the air. And I saw you in a totally.

[Gordon]

Different light after that, man, I never knew that you found out about that.

[George]

We've never talked about it. I'm terrible about talking about things. I just kind of let things go, and I think guys in general are guilty of that, and we've never talked about that.

[Craig]

And how long ago was that?

[George]

Oh, about 30 years.

[Craig]

It was like, first couple years at the station.

[George]

Yeah, I think we were doing mornings, so it was somewhere around 1996 or 97.

[Gordon]

Yeah, we were already on air partners at that time. Yeah. I mean, look, prank calls can be great. Funny. We've all done them, but you don't. The way that they were doing that prank call, it made no sense to me. First of all, it was like, so this character is just designed to creep Georgie out by calling him in the middle of the night and talking about his family. That's not cool, and it's not okay. And George is really affected by this, as he rightly should be. And that audio deserves no place in this world.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

I don't even want it out there for. Even if they just said, okay, fine, we won't play it on the air. I don't want that stuff being out there that you have to worry about when that shoe is going to drop, when that's going to get out.

[George]

And I'll add this to it. The next day I came to work, and I think I apologized to both of you guys because I think I. I didn't stick around. We have this thing called crosstalk. When you hand it off to the next show. I was so upset that day, I just left and I came back and apologized to you guys. And this is before I knew that you had erased everything you said. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to worry about that audio. And you're a good man. Wow. That's like, one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me after something like that. So, yeah, after that moment, I knew, you know, Gordon is a good dude. He really is.

[Gordon]

Well, you are a good man, Giorgio.

[George]

No, I don't know.

[Gordon]

You are a good man. And I think that those two words or three words, if you want to include the article, I think those are the most important words that a guy can ever hear for whatever reason. To me, when someone says, you're a good man.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

That hits me in the heart more than any other phrase ever. Yeah, that's much better than someone telling you that you're a great man.

[Craig]

Yes.

[George]

Well, I think that a you two guys, for sure. And there was that one. And then also early in the Ticket and the Ticket days in Dallas when we were trying to make our way in radio, it's like the first nice thing that my wife and I ever bought for ourselves. And we bought a video camera because our kids were growing up and we were trying to, you know, get as much on video and stop borrowing her uncle's video camera, which we had to do to get videos of our kids. And Gordo was going on a trip to New York and he said, hey, can I borrow your camera? I was like, oh, my gosh, Gordon borrowed my camera. What's going to be on this?

[Gordon]

What tape is going to be left in this camera when I get back?

[George]

And he and his girlfriend at the time went to New York, York, and I gave him our camera. And Gordo came back and he came over to the house when he returned it, and he showed me some of his trip to New York. And he said, hey, by the way, do you know you could do this? He's a camera nut. And he found features in it that I never read in the manual. When we got the thing, we were just, you know, C kid and video kid. That's all we really cared about. Oh, yeah, you can do dissolves and all this cool stuff on it. And he. And he. And he thanked me in a really heartfelt way of thank you for letting me borrow this. And I don't. It was like the first time we had a conversation, because up until then, my only relationship with you is laughing at you one minute, and then the next minute I was ready to throw a notebook at you.

[Gordon]

Right. Yeah. So this was one of my. The major problems as I look back on my young adulthood. And I really don't like that guy that I see now. I probably don't remember good parts. Like, I. I focus on the parts of myself that I did not like when I look back. And one of those things is. Yeah, that I. I did not take the opportunity for more genuineness, you know, like I did with the video camera. It was genuinely a nice thing you did for me. And how about giving you a genuine thank you. Rather than ladling shtick all over it.

[George]

And just dropping it on the floor.

[Gordon]

Dropping on the floor.

[George]

Stupid video.

[Gordon]

Yeah, stupid thing doesn't work anyway. Uh, you know, like some of those things are good. I'm not opposed to doing the joke of dropping on the floor, you know, sit on the floor, say it's stupid, but then afterwards say, hey, seriously man, thank you for that. That was very kind of you. I can't afford one right now. You let me borrow it. And I'm so glad that I was able to preserve the memories of the, the trip that me and my girlfriend took. So, yeah, I was not genuine enough. And I think that I was not aware of how I affected people.

[George]

No, I don't think you were either. And sometimes that I still hear from time to time now will tell you, yeah, so and so is a little skittish about. Well, why? Well, to me you're like a fire breathing dragon. You walk into a room and you breathe fire, which Most of it, 99% of it is hilarious and entertaining. But you may singe a few people while you're doing it. And those people, I think, just don't want to. Just like I didn't want to debate you in the early days thinking, well, I'm going to lose this, I'm going to look stupid here. I think they're intimidated by you still. I still think, but not as much as. And don't feel bad about worrying about what you did or said. When you were in your 20s, you were the youngest of us and I mean, we were 28, you were 22 or 23. So yeah, that was the explanation. You were very young. And I wish I could take so many things back from my teens and.

[Craig]

My 20s back in those early years. George, I remember your dad once famously described Gordo as pornographic.

[George]

Yeah, that was another battle that I fought.

[Craig]

Yet your kids loved listening to Gordo. So how did the family dynamic influence your relationship with him?

[George]

That's really good. And that was a struggle. Early was the feedback that I'd get about our show was sometimes from my parents who were totally out of the demographic. I didn't expect them to get some of the things we were talking about, but that was tough. And that was another conversation that I had with Gordon about, hey, don't worry so much about what your parents think. I remember we had that conversation in Vail because I was really upset about it.

[Craig]

And he was telling you that.

[George]

Yes, and it was before they got sick. And then that took on a whole nother dynamic. But then my kids, and then I started realizing again seeing the value in Gordon. He can make a 35 year old on the way to work laugh. But when my kids were at a young age, not only what they heard on the radio, because that was sometimes limited by my wife, what they would listen to, but anytime Gordon was around them, he would make a point to do something funny and they would just, they thought he was the funniest guy and still do think he's the funniest guy in the world. So yeah. And I, it helped me think, okay, what I'm doing is not pornographic by some definition it might be, but it's, it's providing for my family. I started, I struggled with that. I don't know if you guys did because I don't think you did because you didn't have little kids. I struggled with that in the early days. Are they just as we talked about or dad's being proud of us, My kids going to be proud of me because, you know, we're talking about which one would you. And stuff. It's just like I couldn't compute that in the early days.

[Gordon]

Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about and I know that struggle. You know, obviously I didn't have it as acutely as you did, but I had a bit of it because, you know, my dad was a, a very well known Baptist minister.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

And I was a preacher's kid. And I think that I've always carried guilt about what I'm doing to the family name, you know, and I was always really worried about it, you know, like, is my, are my parents embarrassed by what I do on the radio? Because obviously my personality and certainly my on air character was the, was the fire starter, was the most envelope pushing of the three of us and all that kind of stuff. You know, that's what I did. So I was always worried that my parents, when this new radio station kicks off and I'm on it doing that kind of material. I was always worried that I was going to have my dad was going to say, son, can you come here? I like to talk to you.

[George]

But he never did. He handled it so well.

[Gordon]

Never did. As a matter of fact, it's like, it's really touching to me when I think back to it that he always was extremely proud of me and never said a negative word about what I did. I remember one time asking him, I said, I said, dad, you know, I know that what I do on the radio comes because he listened all the time. He listened all the time. And you know what?

[George]

That's okay.

[Gordon]

I started like 15 seconds in after he died. You know, I'm cleaning out his study and trying to, you know, going through their house and get everything processed and all that. And I just found bags and bags of cassette tapes.

[George]

Really?

[Gordon]

He just, he listened all the time and he would always record it. And you know, it's one of those deals where you don't know if you're. How long your kid's gonna have the job. So you preserve everything that you possibly.

[George]

Can'T fire him within months.

[Gordon]

But. But yeah, so he, you know, and I asked him one night, I said, you know, I know how to do this stuff on the air. That, that is. Is a little. It's probably a little bit not to your sensibilities. And I said, are you, Are you ever. I forgot how I worded it. Are you ever ashamed of me? And he told me never to use that word around him.

[George]

Oh, wow.

[Gordon]

Yeah, I know.

[George]

It was so great.

[Gordon]

He said, he said, I am so proud of you that you found something to do with your talent that people appreciate. And he said, and you're getting paid for it and you're supporting people with it. And that's, that's what, that's all I ever wanted for you was you to find something that made you happy and that someone valued you while you were doing it.

[George]

Wow.

[Craig]

I remember one time we were at some event and your dad took George and me aside and said, I just want to thank you guys for taking in my son. I think is how he phrased it. He goes, because I don't know what would have happened to him had you. Not exactly.

[George]

I love both of yalls dads. Yeah, they're so sweet. And I. I can still hear your dad's voice, Craig, and just always so friendly and engaging. And I just thought about your dad the other day, Gordon, when I went out of my way because my son is now a college football coach and he was in town at a camp and I had like 10 minutes, a 10 minute window to go see him, but I went to go see him and I heard your dad's voice saying, because that's my son. Yeah, that's my son.

[Gordon]

My dad greeted me that way my whole adulthood. As soon as I came walking through his door, every time I darkened his door would say, my son, the McDonald's.

[George]

Snack wrap is back.

[Gordon]

You brought it back.

[George]

Ranch snack wrap.

[Gordon]

Spicy snack wrap.

[George]

You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back.

[Gordon]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm Sports. Are all about teamwork and so is insurance.

[George]

Whether you need an in person or.

[Gordon]

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[George]

So proud.

[Craig]

Over the years, how much has your shared love of music influenced your relationship? Because I remember specifically one time on our show where George, you were playing your first album that you made with your band, the Bird Dogs. And I specifically remember Gordon's reaction to it. You were almost moved to tears and you told George how beautiful you thought it was and how proud you were of him. And I know you guys are much more musically inclined than I am. You all have had that bond of music over the years.

[George]

Yeah, that was really sweet. And not only that day, but I think you texted me or emailed me and I think it was an email and you said about several of the songs, you know, I cried when I heard this song and it's just beautiful. And you probably don't realize this. I think I told you. Months back, leading into our big charity concert, Gordon inspired me to do something good with it. I don't know why I started back up with music. We were. Gordon and I were both in bands in high schools. He was much more accomplished than I was. I was just kind of barely hanging on as a singer and a very rough guitar player. But I picked it back up in my 40s after I lost my parents and I really found purpose for it. And that is to try to do something good with it for charitable efforts like our big concert, Jump Jam. But I got a lot of that from Gordon because you said you not only have this, but you can do something good with it. And that has always stuck with me.

[Gordon]

Yeah, well, it's the win win. I mean, you've got this talent, you've got a desire and a passion to play music and to write songs, you know, to create something that before you were in the world, it wasn't in the world. This is can only come from you. And that's one of the most magical gifts that God or the universe gives us, whatever anyone's spiritual beliefs are. But we are these creative forces and what do we create while we're here on Earth? And you have that ability to do that. And you did it. And it's like coupling that with the fact that you raised. How much money have you raised for the senior source in Dallas?

[George]

It's we hit 1.5 million now.

[Gordon]

I mean, think about that. Your efforts, you. Because you're in the world. Giorgio, you raised $1.1 million for that organization that helps older people when they are getting towards the end of their life and need help, need resources, need caretaking. I mean, that's pretty amazing. So it's. It's a total win. Win. And yeah, when you first did that album and you saw it through, there's so many of us out there who are kind of shadow artists. We have this creative self, we have our creative selves, but we never fully put them into action because we're scared. We're self conscious. We're. We're very protective of the dream of doing something to the exclusion of doing the actual thing, because we want to maintain that illusion that it could be great and you never have to risk putting it into action. And so people sit on the sidelines of their own lives for forever. And you didn't, when it came to music, when you started recording those albums, and when I first heard that album and heard your songwriting and specifically thought it was you, I remember that was the tune that really jumped out at me and was just so moving about. And still, it's a great premise for a song. The opening line, standing in line at the end of the day, and it was about you hearing a voice near you, and it sounded just like your dad.

[George]

Yeah. And. And part of getting over that hump, you're going to think, this may be ridiculous, but again, the Gordo intimidation factor was I really did think, man, what's Gordon going to think of this? Because he's so particular about sound and playing ability.

[Gordon]

Right.

[George]

You know, just plunking my guitar and hoping to get through a song. But you guys will also. Bingo. And laugh at this. The guy who really got me through it was my musical idol, Randy Rogers. When I told him I was recording a record, he said, well, that's great. Can I put it out? Why not? Do you like it? Do you have something to play or do you have something to say? And I said, well, I think I do. Well, then put it out. It's your. It's your song. Just like you said, gordo, it's your creation. And he inspired. Okay, I'll put it out. And yeah, we've been panned. We've, you know, been told it sucks, and that's what we do.

[Gordon]

You know, you didn't hear that from me.

[George]

I know. No, did not. And it's tried to make me better about listening to music and not just totally Panning something because it is somebody's work that meant something to them and they thought they had something to say. And I've tried to be better about that, but I've been terrible about it. Makes for good podcasting and radio. And you go, oh, my God, do I have to hear that song again? But no, I appreciate both of you putting up with that over the years.

[Gordon]

But, yeah, we certainly bonded over music. I mean, heck, we love doing musical humor.

[George]

Oh, yeah.

[Gordon]

Set up talking about di boxes and talking about, you know, subwoofers going out.

[George]

And that was one of my favorite bits. When you. Monitors the entire Jones family setting up for a press conference. And all of them were sound checking.

[Gordon]

Yeah, sound check humor is great.

[Craig]

I remember being on the outside of this musical relationship that the two of you have. We were in California many years ago, and we were driving up the coast and we were listening to the Beatles channel on satellite. And every single song that came on on that drive for five hours, these two would debate, a song would come on, and George would say, what do you think of this one? And Gordon would say, meh. And George would say, you're crazy.

[George]

This would be one of my favorites. And I think this is one of.

[Craig]

Their ten best songs ever. And then the next song would come on, and George would say, oh, all right. What do you think of this one? And Gordo would say, I love this. And Gordo. George would go, you're crazy. This is one of their worst.

[George]

Hello, submarine. What?

[Gordon]

You got to appreciate it for what.

[Craig]

It is, George, for five hours.

[Gordon]

It's so funny when the three of us are all out to eat together, because Georgio and I hear every background song ever and are processing it and thinking about it, and Junior is so tuned out on background music.

[Craig]

Never hear it. I never hear it. And they'll start commenting, talking, having a conversation about something. Like, what are they talking? Oh, yeah. It's this song that's in the background.

[Gordon]

I don't know why they put the strat in the fifth position on that one. It sounds bad.

[George]

You know, and that's another thing about Gordon is you don't just dip your toe into something. If you're going to learn how to play guitar or learn about typewriters, you go all in. And it's. It's an amazing. Maybe it's a curse for you.

[Gordon]

It's a curse. The hyper fixation thing.

[George]

Yes.

[Gordon]

But part of that ADHD deal, and it's maddening to those. Those around me have had to learn to navigate it.

[George]

Yeah. And you'll go shooting off in another direction at the drop of a hat. But when you're focused on something, it's incredible. I'm not just saying this. You are an incredible musician. And if you want to. I don't know if you want to, but you should do something with it. You ought to sit down, take some of your old songs and get with a, you know, a couple of other players and record them.

[Gordon]

George is inspiring me.

[Craig]

There we go.

[George]

You should, because you're a much better player. You're a better singer.

[Gordon]

I will do it on one condition.

[George]

What?

[Gordon]

That it does not benefit charity one single day.

[George]

Yes. Making sure it just benefits you. Yeah.

[Craig]

Now you've piqued his interest.

[Gordon]

That will be my sole motivation to.

[George]

Not benefit charity on another one of.

[Craig]

Our trips to California. This was for cowboys training camp. For our radio show, I made a challenge to the two of you because these two need to be deprogrammed. All they do is think and speak in old audio clips that have been aired on our radio station over the years. Old drops, old platelets, whatever it is.

[Gordon]

Nowhere and get some more.

[Craig]

How do you feel about feeding each other's addiction?

[Gordon]

Love it. Love it. Enjoy the hell out of it. As a matter of fact, Giorgio and I are more in sync on that than anybody else in my life. Like I just. For sure, I love knowing exactly if I say this, it's going to trigger this audio meme in his head right now. And I love reliving all old audio funny moments with him, you know, And.

[George]

I just realized something. It goes back to what we've been talking about on previous episodes when we first met each other and how we try to crack each other up. It's just a guaranteed crack up with me. I mean, yeah, those same audio clips are still funny to me now, 25 years later. And I've either heard them or tried to impersonate him at least a million times.

[Gordon]

At least a million times. But I love just digging right back into him, overanalyzing the moments of wheels off radio that happened, obviously. Yeah, it's great. It's another one of the things that is the glue of our friendship, Giorgio.

[George]

Yes.

[Gordon]

Is the audio memes that we are so obsessed with.

[Craig]

And because of that, you don't want to be deprogrammed.

[George]

No, no, don't do it yet.

[Gordon]

No, I love my drug too much.

[George]

There are some times when will hear things repeating in my. I wish we knew. I wish we knew. I wish we knew. And I wish I could get it out of My head, but it only lasts for, you know, a couple of hours, and I'm fine the next day, so I'm okay. It's worth the laughs, I think. Yeah.

[Craig]

We touched a little bit on this in episode three. Your initial impressions of each other, that came up in our conversation there when we first all met in week one of working at our radio station 31 years ago. And then after a year and a half the station being in existence, then George and I, we were moved to the morning show, and that's when Gordon joined us permanently. Go back then. Do you remember what you thought of each other at the time? And, Gordo, from your perspective, what was it like when you were placed with us in the morning show permanently?

[Gordon]

Well, it was. You know, I don't want to say it was difficult because I can't remember exactly if I felt that at the time, but I certainly was aware of the fact of these two guys have known each other for a really long time, and they have something that is so well put together. As I told you, when I would listen to you as just a listener, I was shocked at how well you guys flowed. You just had a flow with each other, a very heavy flow, and. And I was like, well, how am I going to fully fit into that? That seems strange. So I was a bit worried that, you know, where am I going to fit in this mix? Similar to the way you felt when there was talk of you being part of another show at first, when the radio station on the air with two big personalities, so. But of course, I was young. I was, you know, early 20s, and my approach to everything in life at that time was bull in a china shop. So I can see how that's got. That was weird for. And then Giorgio was married with children at that point, so he immediately is the parental figure in this situation, and I was the envelope pusher. So there's this natural tension that's already there.

[George]

Yeah. And like I said, it was pretty tense with me. And I. Looking back, I put a lot of it on me just because I. I took it too personally. I was way too paranoid about what so and so. Going to think if he hears that on the air, and we would hear it from some people we used to work with. I don't know if you guys should say that on the air. Yeah, well, it's kind of funny, though, right? Yeah, but I just don't know if you should. So, yeah, it was tense with me. It's like we were on this high wire act every morning, and I just didn't want to push it too much, but thank God we had you, Gordon, to do that because I wasn't willing to do it, didn't know how to do it, and you did. And I've always said this on a couple of other episodes. You've always been our secret weapon. There is nobody like you in radio, podcasting, tv, and everyone has taken a, A, I guess a gander at you. And TV has tried it, you know, and had great success. But then.

[Gordon]

Great success.

[George]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. How many downloads does your Zach Galifianakis YouTube interview have?

[Gordon]

Last I checked, it was over 1,000.

[George]

No, it's like 5 million or something stupid. I think it is. But yeah, I only know where I was going with all that. But yeah, I was in my. My view of you was I couldn't wait to be around you. But at the same time, there were times when I would go to work thinking, oh gosh, what's Gordon? How hard is he going to hit me today? And like, I remember one time, I don't know why I remember this. We're at Super Bowl 30 with the Cowboys. Last super bowl they went to long, long time ago in Phoenix. And I remember we're all going to go out somewhere after the show and I came down to the pool area and I had on sunglasses and I was ready to go. And here's my friends and we're going. And Gordon says, okay, here's bloated Elvis. I guess we can go now. Bloated Elvis.

[Craig]

Really seeing it stayed with him all.

[George]

These years and it was funny and I laughed at. There was part of me that laughed and there was part of me just like, oh God, he's right. I look like I looked in the mirror and said, geez, yeah, it looked like Elvis. Late day, bloated about the.

[Craig]

He slowly took off the glasses and.

[George]

I just fell into the pool and sank to the bottom.

[Gordon]

Floated face down in the pool for.

[George]

A while and floated. But no, it was fine. And again, you were 22, 23. That's what 22 and 23 year olds do. And I was probably a little beyond my years because we started really early as parents. And yeah, I just wasn't always ready for the fraternity club of here, here's a baseball bat. Let me hit you in the shin.

[Gordon]

Here's some ball kicking for you. I know. And that's the. I'm sorry for that.

[George]

You don't have to apologize.

[Gordon]

No, but I genuinely apologize because that's the kind of stuff that I look back on. I just go why, like why this guy is. We're not on the air when I said that, Right?

[George]

No.

[Gordon]

So it's not for entertainment value on the air. So why take the risk of hurting someone's feelings by making a comment like that? Maybe we're overanalyzing it.

[George]

No, you're probably. But see, I did the same thing to you though. And before I was really sensitive to some of the things you were going with. Going through. I would like make jokes about. Okay. Yeah, Gordon's depressed about this chain link fence. It's not the right distance from us from the broadcast.

[Gordon]

Yeah, you did make fun of my depression.

[George]

And I looked back at that and I went, what a terrible thing. So I'm sorry about that. And I think I did say that on the air and we all laughed, but I'd look back at that and go, I shouldn't have made a joke about that. And I really didn't know all the things you were going through with that. I don't know if you want to even talk about it, but I'm very sorry that I wasn't sensitive to that and I was very guilty of it too, because I would return fire. I just couldn't return it with the panache that you have.

[Gordon]

Didn't he used to play with the Mavericks?

[Craig]

Steve Nash.

[Gordon]

Gotcha. Yeah.

[George]

So.

[Gordon]

But it's once again a case of ignorance.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

Like you may have never dealt with depression or sensitivity to spaces that remind you of childhood things or something that made you.

[George]

Not until depressed later in my life. And I didn't have time for talk of depression back then. What is that?

[Gordon]

Right. So you didn't.

[George]

20 year olds feeling sorry for themselves what's going on?

[Gordon]

And it's really hard to explain depression to anyone who's not gone through it.

[George]

Yes.

[Gordon]

So, yeah. You know, you say and do things out of ignorance that hurt other people. And the mark of the person is do you feel bad afterwards and do you still do that kind of stuff? And yeah, certainly. We both learn from it.

[George]

And I think all of us have found our, our boundaries too, you know, over the years to where whether it's on air or off air, we know when to stop pushing because that's going to. You know, it's just needless. We. And that's why I think we've lasted so long. We've kind of figured that out.

[Craig]

Yeah. We haven't had any incidents in a long, long time of you ramming Gordon's head through Sheetrock or whizzing a notebook at him or something like that everything's really calmed down in the last 15 years.

[Gordon]

You did whiz that notebook at me.

[George]

That was in the early days, too.

[Gordon]

Do you remember why you did that?

[George]

Yes, I remember exactly. It was early days of us reading live spots on the air, which is a panic. Still is. Sometimes. You're trying to get the copy just right. I think it's like the third time I've talked about this company. So I'm trying to get all the words right, and you're in the background just, you know, jumping up and down, clapping your hands or doing something like that, going, oh, yeah, really? Oh, only 30% down, huh? Okay.

[Gordon]

Okay. I was good on that.

[George]

And so I'm flubbing, you know, looking over at you and messed up several of the copy points. And so give him a call. It's, you know, hot dog rental company. And Mike goes off and I just took the notebook that I had and threw it at you. It's like, shut up.

[Gordon]

That was an assault on my person. I just was really excited to hear about the hot dog rental company.

[George]

Well, I changed the name because a.

[Gordon]

Lot of people just buy their hot dogs.

[George]

I don't know.

[Gordon]

This place is a different idea.

[George]

I don't know if this car leasing company is still in business, so I didn't to mention who they were.

[Gordon]

But, yeah, there was the other time, though, in the production room. This is another production room incident we had. There was a telescoping antenna that had broken off of some little radio.

[George]

That's right. This was really wrong.

[Gordon]

Some portable radio. And it was at a time in our culture in which wearing cargo shorts everywhere was in style.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

George was wearing cargo shorts, so it left a big gaping hole down there by his thighs. And I thought, well, this would be a good opportunity to see how far up that gape. That thigh gape that he has there. I can get this telescoping antenna.

[George]

That is a.

[Gordon]

See if I can get the top of this antenna to tickle his ball sack.

[Craig]

It's almost sexual assault.

[George]

Yes. Because he got pretty high.

[Gordon]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[George]

And finally had to grab his arm.

[Gordon]

What are you doing, idiot? I was trying to help you. I thought you had an itch.

[George]

And that's funny that your dad said that about. Hey, thanks for taking Gordon aside. And, you know, I don't know if we really did, but in some ways, I did become like your parent. And yes, I took the place of your mom, especially.

[Gordon]

Yes.

[George]

That you used to just, you know, insult. Well, you would insult your mom, but you would do bits in the backseat until you would get on her last nerve.

[Gordon]

Right. My whole life was provoking whatever authority figure was within 10ft of me. That's what I did. And my poor mom, it was her growing up in school. It was my teachers. I mean, I look back now and absolutely would have hated myself being around myself back then if I was in a position of authority over me. Like I think back in my teacher, my poor teachers, because some of them were really sweet people. But I just treated the whole classroom as that. No, this is my stage production in here and you're playing the part of the overbearing, uptight boss in this sitcom. So.

[George]

So there we got our answer. How did Gordon first see me? Fresh meat. Okay, this is my new target.

[Gordon]

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[Craig]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[George]

Now I was looking for fun ways.

[Craig]

To tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[George]

So I thought it would be fun.

[Craig]

If we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal.

[George]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only.

[Gordon]

Speed slow after 35gb of networks busy.

[George]

Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.

[Craig]

I witnessed the moment where the show's dynamic almost lost two thirds of its personnel. And that is when Gordon tried to push George into the Grand Canyon.

[Gordon]

Okay, now that's clearly an exaggeration because.

[George]

He was pushing towards the edge and we were at the Grand Canyon and I was in front of him and was this super bowl because there was ice there. So you had to be careful where you stepped.

[Craig]

We were at the super bowl in Phoenix and we made a field trip that Saturday before three hours north to go see the Grand Canyon.

[George]

And it's cold and it's windy and there's ice, patches of ice on the rock. And it's a lot like vacation. You get to the Grand Canyon. You kind of look at it for about 10 seconds and you're pretty much good. And so I'm taking it in and just looking at it. And he comes up behind me, Gordon, and does that shoulder shutter push, you know, where he and he push you.

[Gordon]

Forward and grab you.

[George]

Push you forward and grab you at the same time. And I slipped and I just. For a second, I slipped. And then.

[Gordon]

And we were truly on the edge of the Grand Canyon.

[George]

We weren't too far. And then the next thing I did was I just was able to reach my left arm around and grab him because I did have the thought, if I'm going off this cliff, damn it, he's going with me.

[Gordon]

See? And why is that his thought? Why is this thought that if I'm going to be murdered, I'm at least going to become a murderer before I have to face judgment?

[George]

Because that was taking our on air battles. Okay. He may win this one initially, but.

[Gordon]

You were determined it was going to be a draw.

[George]

Yeah, yeah. All the way down. I'll be going, ha. Gotcha.

[Craig]

Can you imagine what I would have been thinking if I had watched the two of you go over the edge of the Grand Canyon?

[George]

Oh, my God. Yelling at each other while hearing the.

[Gordon]

Retreating argument Doppler effect down there.

[George]

Arguing till the last second until they just hit like Wiley Coyote at the bottom. Oh, my gosh.

[Craig]

All right, so where are you guys in your career arc? Because we're all in our 50s now. Gordon is in his early 50s, but George and I are in our late 50s.

[Gordon]

And we're arcing it.

[Craig]

We're arcing it.

[George]

Definitely arcing.

[Craig]

How are you guys feeling about everything? The podcast giving you extra life?

[Gordon]

Yeah. I love this. I love sitting here talking to you guys. It's so what's great about it is we're sitting here talking and it feels so relax compared to when you're doing radio. And we got a. Okay, we got to hit this break at this time.

[Craig]

Right.

[Gordon]

I got this live spot as soon as we hit that break. And then coming back, don't forget, we got to do this bit and everything. It's totally different feel.

[Craig]

Yes, yes, it is.

[George]

And as we get older, we keep getting that question, how much longer you going to do this? I don't really have an answer. I do know it's. It's just the way life goes, the way careers go. And maybe this extends that to where even if we're not doing the radio show, maybe we're doing this for a long time. I could do this for a long time.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's interesting because I can picture George as a retiree playing golf, playing his guitar. I can't really picture Gordo as a retiree, because I think you need the structure of the radio show and the podcast. And what would you do in retirement?

[Gordon]

I don't know. But, you know, that's something I did not learn about myself until. I don't know, I mean, much older. Like, I always thought that, man, I'd love it if I just didn't have any responsibilities. It'd be so great if there was. There wasn't. I didn't have to do things. And then I started noticing when we would have an extended period of time off or we'd have vacation and I wasn't doing anything. When I. I don't have structure, I really. My depression starts really creeping back in, and it's just not good to not do things. You know, you're in this world as a doer, not just as a thinker. Thinking is great, but what do you do with that thinking, you know, or creating. And so, yeah, I can't imagine myself being retired either, because more than most people, I think I need other people to help me stay focused. You know, part of it is my brain chemistry, and so I like having a place to go to every day and doing the show with you guys in the morning. I love doing the radio show as much as it is pressure, it still is. I never had the feeling that I took it for granted outside of maybe year five is when I started thinking, you know, I really am really lucky to have this job. Really lucky. So it makes it very hard to ever leave it. And I still feel that to this day.

[George]

We all struggle with that.

[Gordon]

I can't imagine hanging up the radio job when it's still going good, when people still want to listen to us, when we have a company that still wants to pay us to do. Would be so hard to make that decision.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

I keep waiting for Jesus to come down and make the decision for us by coming down with his AK47 and blowing our mics away.

[George]

There are a lot of signs out there that say that he may be about to do that. So maybe we all are getting close to the end. I also feel, and I'll reveal this, I am a grandfather. And I feel. I feel a responsibility to that generation, too. And it's up to my kids to raise their kids, but I feel, you know, I want to help them, too. And I. I feel like as someone who's been pulling this wagon for a long time that, well, I need to pull the wagon a little bit more for them as well. And I don't know if that's right or wrong. It's just, you know, something that I. I struggle with.

[Gordon]

Yeah, I kind of feel that. I feel that too, in the sense of that, you know, I know I've helped a lot of people out because I have had a job that's been so steady and good, you know, and when people have been in need, I'm in a position to help loved ones.

[George]

Yes.

[Gordon]

And I think quitting that job that has helped so many people just beyond me, it would. I just don't know if I could do that. Like I said, it's a hard decision to make. Taking ownership of your choices and your life and being the author of your own life is a difficult thing for some people. Certainly people like me. I always liked it when the decision was made for me. When the girl broke up with me because I was being such a jerk and engineered it for her to break up with me, I was like, hey, good, at least it's on her.

[George]

That's her responsibility. She broke up again. Next level thinking. I never would have thought of that. I was just glad a girl was talking to me, you know?

[Craig]

What's entered the mix for me in the last couple of years is if I've always thought about retirement. As we talked about in episode one, I now have this weird need to have my daughter, who is three know at some point in her life that I worked right. You know, like, I don't want her to always think that dad just rode his bike and, you know, played video chess and was hanging around the house. It's like there's a weird desire for me to know that she was experiencing Daddy going to work.

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And she knows that now. She says it, but I don't know.

[Gordon]

She may not remember it.

[Craig]

Yeah, you don't really remember that. When I was 5 and 6, I remember my dad going to work.

[George]

Yeah. That's something that, as kids, we worry about what our parents are going to think of us. And then when we're parents, we worry about what our kids are going to think of us. I want them to have the right impression here that I'm really. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Gordon]

And there's something good to what Junior's saying, like, if she does have a memory of you going to work. Like, I think back and I didn't appreciate how hard my father worked when I was A certainly when I was a teenager, I didn't appreciate it. But now when I look back on that, I really have gained such an appreciation looking back at what he did. What a man. And this is the way it was back then because my mom was a stay at home mom. You know, what he gave of his life in order for us to have one as well as what my mom gave up in order to. For us to have a good life. But yeah, just seeing my dad go to work every day has been in my memory. Now I have to watch it because he's not around anymore.

[George]

Well, and that's valuable for your daughter too.

[Craig]

That's right.

[George]

To learn those. Okay. This is what you do to. To make it in this world. You have to. You have to do something.

[Craig]

Peter, I want you to write this down. I think in a great episode would be us talking about our parents. Oh yeah, I would love to do that. Okay.

[Gordon]

But we'll have a no crying rule.

[Craig]

Well, that's going to be.

[Gordon]

We'll be all be tough guys, alpha males that have no fear.

[George]

No crying. No crying.

[Gordon]

No crying.

[Craig]

And I knew this would be a great episode because of our relationships. For George and I, in the beginning, the relationship was very easy. And for Gordon and I, in the beginning, our relationship was always very easy. I really clicked immediately with both of you guys. But I know that the two of you have had a much more complicated relationship. And that's why I thought this episode was going to be really entertaining. And it's been great.

[George]

It has been complicated. But I love you guys and I love this dude and yeah, I'll ride with him until they say we can't ride together anymore until Jesus blows us.

[Gordon]

Up from behind the steering wheel.

[Craig]

All right, that does it for episode four. Hopefully you've learned a lot these first four episodes about the three of us and we hope you'll stay with us on this podcast journey. Thanks to our producer, Peter Welpton.

[George]

Thank you, Peter.

[Craig]

Thanks to you for listening. And we look forward to episode five of the Musers the podcast.

[George]

Peace.

[Gordon]

New episodes of the Musers the podcast.

[George]

Happen every Wednesday, so make sure you.

[Gordon]

Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. We love to hear from the P1.

[George]

So please reach out to us across.

[Gordon]

Any of the social media platforms. Or how about just an old fashioned email themuserspod@gmail com. The Musers the Podcast is a tired head production.