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- [00:00]
A
I thought a lot about this episode because I was very excited about it, but I didn't think anything about the cold open.
- [00:07]
B
Well, I don't think we're doing one this week.
- [00:08]
C
Yeah, there's no cold open. You can't do it.
- [00:11]
B
Roll right into it.
- [00:12]
C
Can't do it. It's too hot outside.
- [00:14]
B
Yeah.
- [00:15]
C
To do a cold open just won't work. It won't work. Damn it.
- [00:19]
A
It won't work.
- [00:22]
D
The Musers the Podcast.
- [00:25]
C
Episode nine Feels like flying.
- [00:29]
A
Welcome to the Musers the Podcast ep, Episode nine. By the way, guys, it dawned on me last week on our radio show that we were talking about Emery Ballard, the old football coach, and we got an email from a listener who played high school football for Emery Ballard, and he said he was a great coach, really tough coach. Never heard him utter a cuss word. And it dawned on me that we are now episodes into this podcast venture, and we have not cursed on this podcast.
- [01:03]
B
No, I think that's very commendable.
- [01:06]
C
Is it?
- [01:07]
B
Yes.
- [01:07]
A
I think that's a podcasting record. Doesn't everybody, as soon as they start podcasting, start cussing up a storm?
- [01:13]
C
One of the great things.
- [01:15]
B
Cool. I am.
- [01:15]
A
Man.
- [01:16]
B
Listen to these cuss words.
- [01:18]
C
Yeah. For some reason, people have opinions about whether or not you should cuss on the. The podcast.
- [01:23]
B
I don't get it.
- [01:24]
C
Well, cuss, George. Come on.
- [01:25]
A
No, give it to us.
- [01:27]
C
Give me a hard F. I want to. I want to be hard F. You do it.
- [01:31]
A
I mean, at some point, I'm sure one of us will cuss, but I kind of like it that we're not cussing. We are the Gentle Musers, after all.
- [01:39]
C
So gentle.
- [01:41]
A
So, welcome to episode nine. I'm Craig Miller.
- [01:43]
B
I'm George Dunham.
- [01:45]
C
And I'm Gordon Keith.
- [01:47]
A
We introduce ourselves with our real given names, but then during the show, we've been using our nicknames a lot. So for our Singapore listeners, I'm Craig, but I go by Junior. George is George, but he goes by jubjub Jaw and International Chirp Chirp. And Gordon is Gordon, but he goes by Gordo or the Great Gordo or the Devil Zone.
- [02:08]
C
Yes.
- [02:09]
B
Yeah, we'll answer to those.
- [02:10]
C
Now. The Devil's Own. That's a little misleading. I mean, that's. I'm not the Devil's Own. It was a nickname given.
- [02:15]
B
I heard that in a song once. You're the Devil's Own.
- [02:19]
C
Hi, Devil.
- [02:21]
A
Today's episode.
- [02:22]
B
Enjoy the podcast.
- [02:23]
C
Oh, thank you, Devil. What are you up to these days? Back to Craig. Okay.
- [02:27]
A
Today's episode is part one of a three part series that we are calling what We Love. So over the next three episodes, each of us will get an episode to talk about our passion in life. This is outside of family, friends, work, you know, those things we're definitely passionate about. But we're going to talk about hobbies or interests or things we just like to do if we've got spare time. What really moves us, what really drives us. So I'll start here with episode nine. Gordon gets episode 10, George gets episode 11.
- [03:03]
B
I got to come up with something.
- [03:05]
A
Okay.
- [03:06]
C
You have a couple weeks to develop a passion.
- [03:09]
B
I just don't have any passion anymore.
- [03:12]
A
Well, we were kicking around this topic. For me it was easy because for me, it has always been the bicycle. That has been my passion since I was a kid and it still is. Here I am, 59 years old and it's still the thing that I look the most forward to every day.
- [03:30]
B
Do you remember the year?
- [03:33]
A
Well, I remember I learned how to ride a bicycle at age five and that was when we were living in Enid, Oklahoma, and my dad bought me a little bike with training wheels and took me out on the sidewalk a few times with the training wheels on and then we took them off. And I remember that moment of riding without training wheels down the sidewalk for the first time and it felt great.
- [03:55]
B
That is a magical moment.
- [03:57]
A
And I bet you I've taken 10,000, maybe 20,000, I don't know how many bike rides since that moment. And every single time that I'm about to go for a bike ride, I'm giddy and every one of them have been joyful. And it's really interesting to me that something like that, that has been such a marker for all these big moments in my life, something so simple as riding a bike. For some reason, it clicked with me in a stronger way than I think it clicks with most kids because I'm sure you guys grew up riding bikes, probably loving it. But something very early really clicked with me. Stronger than most.
- [04:36]
B
Yeah, I never wanted to race my bike, but I loved it. I mean, to me, I think we've talked about this on a radio show before. It was like your first experience with freedom. You can get on a bike and ride a few blocks down or to your school.
- [04:51]
C
You have your own vehicle, your own way of getting about the world. Yeah, I think that. And there is a generational thing. I don't know that bike riding numbers are the same now as they were when we were growing up and we were Kids. Because kids have other options to keep them entertained now. But riding your bike was a huge moment for every kid getting a bike. The Christmases that you would get a new bike were so big. And it was such a huge part of my childhood too. And I've kind of shared with you a little bit junior and that I love riding bikes as an adult. And I would get a new bike and how exciting it was and talk about bikes. So I love bike riding. And then mine led over into motorcycling too because the two wheeled transportation is a completely different feel than sitting in a car.
- [05:42]
A
Yeah, the.
- [05:44]
C
The upright gyroscope of it just feels so cool and just being able to lean and that goes that direction. It's. It's amazing. And I never had. I'm like Giorgio though, in the sense of I never had a desire to race them.
- [05:58]
A
Right.
- [05:58]
C
That's you.
- [05:59]
A
Right.
- [06:00]
B
And I can't believe like for the usual ride that you go on, I remember when I first met you and you would be coming back to the dorm room with your bicycle. I'd say, how far did you go? And you'd say something crazy, like 80 miles. I was like, what? What do you mean 80 miles? This week or today you went 80 miles? Do you still go that far? Do you still take rides like that?
- [06:25]
A
I do, yeah. I did.
- [06:26]
B
It's incredible.
- [06:27]
A
65 miler over the weekend. And I started doing that when I was really, really young. And there was just something about that element of freedom, that feeling of being able to just get on your bike. And it was a different age. Raised in the 70s and 80s. So your parents said, get out of the house and come back for dinner.
- [06:46]
C
Yeah. Oddly enough, that time was the same time as we experienced the serial killer era. So why we thought that it was a good idea to have bicycle freedom while serial killers are roaming countryside. I don't know.
- [06:59]
A
After my training wheels bike though, it was maybe I was seven years old, something like that. And I got my first kind of good bike. And it was a three speed with a gear shifter on the top tube and a banana seat. And it felt kind of like a motorcycle maybe because it had a banana seat and a shifter. So that's when I started pretending that I was on a motorcycle and I was riding across the country and I would ride down our street and when I'd pull into a different neighbor's house or something, I would pretend that was a gas station I was filling up. I'd pretend our house was a hotel. So I'd park out Front I'd go into my room, pretend that was my hotel room and I was somewhere in Colorado or pretending I was in California or wherever. But I couldn't do great distances on that little three speed. And when I was 10 for Christmas, like you were talking about Gordo, those big moments, my parents got me my first 10 speed. And it was not a great bike. It was a Flying O brand from Otasco, which was a department store in Oklahoma. The bike must have weighed 50 pounds. It was orange, but it was a 10 speed. And I felt like I was on a racing bike. And right around that time, I started riding further and further and further afield. I would go to different neighborhoods, I would ride to friends homes who were kind of across the city. And Oklahoma City is a very big city, it's pretty spread out. And there was a bike shop very close to our house called Pro Bikes. I think it may still be there on 63rd, I think was the street it was on in Oklahoma City slightly generic name?
- [08:41]
B
Yeah, a little generic.
- [08:42]
C
Pro bikes.
- [08:43]
A
It was generic. But I would go up there for bike stuff, generic. And I started loitering in the shop a lot. And they had a magazine rack and one day they had a bike racing magazine there. And I was 11, 12, something like that. And I picked it up and I started looking at it. And it had pictures from the Tour de France. And I had never really been exposed to it. I kind of knew what it was about. But suddenly I'm seeing these pictures of these racers. This is back when you had no helmet, no sunglasses. So you saw their face and you saw the suffering on their face as they're going up this climb. And there are all these people on the side of the road and these cool looking bikes and they just look like they're going through hell. And then I start reading about the race. What this is three weeks long and they race every day and what are they putting their bodies through every day? And nobody at my school knew about this sport or this event.
- [09:40]
B
I didn't know about it growing up.
- [09:41]
A
Yeah. And I thought, wow, I'm kind of on. I'm learning about something that nobody else knows about. And it's connecting with me because I love to ride a bike. And I just thought it was the greatest thing ever. So at that point I started trying to learn as much as I can about the sport and subscribing to these magazines. And back then, you know, this is circa 1978, 79. You had to wait until the October or November issue of Bicycling. Magazine to find out who won the Tour de France in July. That's so crazy to me.
- [10:14]
C
Isn't that.
- [10:15]
B
Just look at your phone and get the latest update on it.
- [10:19]
C
You have to wait to read about it in a magazine when they announce the winner to America.
- [10:29]
A
That sounds very 1700s.
- [10:31]
C
I know it.
- [10:32]
A
But it was 1980 and we still couldn't get news on European sporting events.
- [10:38]
C
So that was your Tour de France Juneteenth. In a way. It just took a while for the news to reach the travel to Texas.
- [10:47]
A
And also Pro Bike. That shop, they carried good bikes and they carried this French brand called Motobican. And I fell in love with this particular Motobicon bike. And my dad got it for me one year for Christmas. So now by Now I'm like 13 and I've got a real bike and I start to ride real distances. And it was 13 where I did my first century ride, which is 100 mile ride. And I remember I rode from our house to Lake Overholser, which is probably about a four mile ride.
- [11:17]
C
Too many syllables, too many syllables in that name. Lake Overholser.
- [11:22]
B
It does sound like a fake lake, I gotta tell you.
- [11:24]
A
The century ride was 10 laps around Lake Overholser. It was 100 miles. So 10 miles a lap. And I mean, I had no idea what I was doing. I was wearing shorts, you know, gym shorts and a terry cloth T shirt and tennis shoes. But I had my decent bike and they had a little restaurant there. And I remember after eight laps I stopped and ate french fries and a Coke and I think that's all I had to eat.
- [11:48]
B
That's all you need.
- [11:49]
A
Maybe refilling my water bottle.
- [11:50]
C
That's proper teenage nutrition right there.
- [11:53]
A
Took me all day, finished, got the T shirt, rode home. And so at age 13, I did my first hundred mile ride.
- [12:01]
B
Golly.
- [12:02]
A
And there have been so many benchmark moments for me. But right around that time, since I was always the youngest in my class, I skipped kindergarten and started first grade when I was five. So developmentally, physically, I was always behind the other kids in class.
- [12:19]
B
Me too.
- [12:20]
A
And especially the kids that got held back. They were two years ahead of me. Yeah, and so that's hard to keep up with athletically. I tried to play basketball and baseball growing up and I played every year in grade school, but I was always coming off the bench. I was always a scrub because I couldn't compete with these guys who were a year or two older than me. I just hadn't developed physically enough. And the bicycle Was the first thing that gave me something to feel good about athletically, because for whatever, I didn't have the gifts to play football or anything like that. I wasn't big enough. But my body was built to go far on a bike, and my legs were built to operate a bike. And I guess I had the lungs and the heart to go out there and ride for 100 miles. So it gave me, for the first time in my life, some confidence about my physical ability. Because up until that moment when I rode 100 miles or did my first bike race, I'd always felt kind of inferior compared to the other kids athletically.
- [13:25]
B
So a hundred miles. This was back when I was, like, in shape. We were in college, and you remember the thing called the Spring Fling in Denton. And my brother came up and I still had his old Peugeot bicycle, another famous. Which you thought was semi legitimate. I remember when I used to ride that around campus. And I said, sure, I'll do that. I think that was 20 miles, and I was in decent shape. And at the end of 20 miles, both of my legs were, like, convulsing.
- [13:57]
C
Tried to walk.
- [13:57]
B
Yeah, spaghetti leg. And I thought I was gonna die. I was cramping, and I was just like, oh, my gosh.
- [14:04]
A
I don't.
- [14:06]
B
How do you build up to go 100 miles? Was, like, the first long ride you ever went on. Was it like that experience where you just were jelly at the end of it?
- [14:16]
A
I mean, I still have a lot of those experiences. My ride last Saturday was an experience like that. I was cramping up, and it was. So, yeah, that's part of the sport, I think. But, yeah, you have to work your way up to 100 miles, for sure. And by that time, I'd been doing a lot of longer and longer and longer rides just around town. And my buddy Mike and I. Mike got into it the same time I did. His name was Mike Schmidt. He wasn't a home run hitter for the Phillies. He was one of my good friends from childhood, but he also got a good bike around the time I did. So we would do long rides with groups, you know, 40 miles, and we built the 60, and we would build up. But talking about that. That moment where you're finally recognized athletically, which every young boy wants to be sure. It was at my high school in Oklahoma City, Bishop McGinnis. They had something that I always thought was great. They had a Class Olympics, seniors versus juniors versus sophomores versus freshmen. And they had 40 different events. And so you just entered what you. Well, they Had a bike race. It was a time trial at Lake Hefner, another lake in Oklahoma City.
- [15:20]
B
Race of truth.
- [15:21]
C
They're all made up.
- [15:22]
A
I think it was 10 miles. You rode out five miles, turned around, came back, and they timed you well. I'm a freshman, and I get to the start line, and my buddy Mike was there. He raced it. Also a freshman, but there were some juniors and seniors there, a couple football players, and I thought, okay, I might get killed here. I won it. And at the medal ceremony a couple weeks later, after the Olympics were over, I was the only kid in the freshman class to win a gold medal in any event.
- [15:51]
B
As a freshman, that gave me so much legitimacy.
- [15:54]
A
And when I went up on stage to accept it, I remember turning and throwing, thrusting the metal in the air. And the whole. My whole freshman class stood up and applauded. And that was like one of the biggest moments of my life. And it was because of the bike.
- [16:06]
C
Yeah, that's huge.
- [16:07]
B
Wink at a few girls as you lifted that medal.
- [16:11]
C
Confidence gave me a little confidence.
- [16:13]
A
Didn't really translate into any action on that front, but gave me some more confidence and another moment where the bike gave me confidence. And I've told you guys this story before. It's unthinkable today, But I am 14 years old. This is, I think it was 1980 somewhere in there. And we have kin folk in Shamrock, Texas. My dad's brother, my uncle John and his family were in Shamrock, right across the border from Oklahoma. And I've been riding my bike a lot. I'd done this 100 mile ride, and my cousin Pam was getting married, and this happened in April. And my dad, like back in February or March of that year goes, you ought to ride your bike to cousin Pam's wedding. Because he knew I liked riding distances. Now I'm 14, and he's encouraging me. And my mom was half on board with this. He said, you can take two days off school. She's getting married on Saturday. Go ride Thursday. We'll get you a hotel room halfway, and then ride the rest of it Friday because it was 180 miles.
- [17:28]
C
Whoa.
- [17:29]
A
And I thought, hell, yeah, I'd love to do that. That is the ultimate in freedom.
- [17:34]
B
Miniature Tour de France here.
- [17:35]
A
Yeah, it's a miniature tour.
- [17:37]
C
And you're taking what kind of roads?
- [17:39]
A
So they were side highways that today would probably be really busy. But back then I had to zigzag to get my way out of the metro area. And I remember riding by Yukon. I think it was the high school Yukon and all the kids were going to school and I was off that day. And then it took me 30 minutes or an hour to get out of Oklahoma City. And then it's side highways straight across to Shamrock.
- [18:04]
C
Do you ride in the lane or on the shoulder or what are you doing at that point?
- [18:07]
A
If there was a shoulder, I was on the shoulder. But again, I had a helmet, I had my decent bike. I had a little bag on the front with a change of clothes and toothbrush or something in there. And I had a water bottle. And that was about it. And my parents just said goodbye. Can you imagine parents doing that today?
- [18:27]
B
14.
- [18:29]
A
So I get out there and it's April, so it's getting kind of warm. I remember going through Bangor, Oklahoma, and going in and having lunch there. And again, the only thing I ate back then was French fries.
- [18:41]
C
Yeah, French fries and a Coke.
- [18:42]
A
I think that was my lunch. And I remember the guy, I sat at a bar, at a diner and the guy asked me, what are you doing? Where are you from? I said, oklahoma City.
- [18:53]
C
The Purdy in that outfit.
- [18:55]
A
And he goes, well, I'm glad you came through Binger, Oklahoma. This is the home of Johnny Bench. Oh yeah, that's right, the legendary Reds catcher. So I get back on my bike. I finish that day about 10 miles shy of my destination, which was some little town, I can't remember the name of it. Halfway between Oklahoma City and Shamrock. And I couldn't go any further. I was out of water, I was exhausted. I'd done 90 of the hundred miles and I had to hitchhike. So I'm a 14 year old now.
- [19:27]
B
We got more danger going here. We got hitchhiking.
- [19:30]
A
Yes.
- [19:31]
C
And so, wow, the french fries didn't.
- [19:33]
A
Carry you the whole way, right?
- [19:35]
C
That great sports nutrition.
- [19:38]
A
I stick my thumb out and after a while this pickup truck pulls over. It's some 70s looking guy with long hair and a beard. And I said, I'm going to whatever the town was. He goes, okay, it's just 10 miles away. Throw your bike in the back. So I put my bike in the back, I get in the cab with him and he's nice, we're having a decent conversation. But when we get into that little town, there's this woman walking on the sidewalk. As I remember, she had maybe tight jeans on or something. And he looks at her and then he hits me on the shoulder and goes, take a look at that. That'll make a man drive straight up a telephone pole, won't it?
- [20:18]
C
And it was such an odd comment you remember it to this day?
- [20:21]
B
Yeah.
- [20:22]
A
And I didn't know how to react. I'm 14, and I just kind of went, yeah, yeah, you know, it sure will.
- [20:28]
C
You don't mind if I open my pants, do you, sir?
- [20:32]
B
I like them cycling shorts you got.
- [20:36]
C
She's almost as pretty you.
- [20:41]
A
So, yeah, he had his way with me and.
- [20:43]
C
Okay, well, come on.
- [20:45]
A
No, no, no. He was after. Other than that comment, he was very nice and normal. And I guess that comment's not abnormal for a grown man.
- [20:54]
C
Do you still keep in contact with him?
- [20:55]
B
We do.
- [20:56]
A
We do. I get a Christmas card from him every year.
- [21:00]
C
Is that guy still alive? How old was he then? Like in his 20s?
- [21:02]
A
Yeah, I would say he's maybe 30.
- [21:04]
C
So he's still a lot of problems. Gosh, I wonder if he remembers that. Yeah, I remember I picked up this 14 year old who was hitchhiking with a bike. And I remember I just said something really stupid to him and it was so dumb that I remember it to this day.
- [21:20]
A
I wonder if he remembers.
- [21:21]
B
Probably not.
- [21:22]
C
There's no way he remembers it. But I remember I said drive up a telephone pole. That makes sense. I don't know.
- [21:27]
B
The kid seemed to have a lot of promise as a talk show host.
- [21:29]
C
He did. And he was wearing a gold freshman medal around his neck.
- [21:34]
B
Still had the medal on a picture.
- [21:36]
A
Of Barry Switzer in his wallet.
- [21:38]
C
And Rick Honeycutt talking about starting a podcast.
- [21:41]
A
It's weird.
- [21:42]
C
Weird incident.
- [21:44]
A
He dropped me at the hotel. My dad had called and made a reservation for me and paid for it over the phone. You could do that, you know.
- [21:52]
B
Did that take some convincing to the manager of the. Of the motel or hotel?
- [21:56]
C
No, because the dad was on the phone.
- [21:58]
A
Yeah.
- [21:58]
C
So it's authorized.
- [21:59]
A
Okay.
- [22:00]
B
All right.
- [22:00]
C
There's no check on whether this is actually his dad. It's just. Oh, okay. Well, right.
- [22:05]
A
So I remember sleeping pretty hard that night. I ate breakfast at the hotel restaurant and I got up and I did the next 80 miles. The next day it was a real struggle. Was hot again. But I made it to Shamrock. And then, of course, we had the family weekend and my cousin got married. And then on that Sunday, we put the bike in the trunk and drove back to Oklahoma City.
- [22:25]
C
So I'm assuming your parents brought you some wedding clothes.
- [22:28]
A
Yeah.
- [22:28]
C
You weren't there in the recycling.
- [22:29]
A
Get out.
- [22:31]
C
Smelling like a yeti's ass.
- [22:33]
A
I think my family thought I was nuts for doing that. All my uncles and aunts and cousins. But I always look back at that and my parents Believing in me that I could do something like that, that was one of those benchmark moments again in my life. And it was because of the bicycle that gave me such confidence. It was the biggest confidence builder in anything my parents ever did. For me to think that much of me, that, yeah, he's 14, but he can handle this. And I handled it. And it's like that I felt like I grew up 10 years in those two days.
- [23:10]
B
Yeah.
- [23:11]
C
I would think that that would be a huge rite of passage. I mean, like, mine compared to yours is going to sound so cushy, but I remember like the first time when I booked my first plane ticket by myself and took a trip to another land by myself. And doing that and on my own as a young adult felt huge. So I can't imagine being 14 and then taking a bike trip by yourself that far away from home.
- [23:38]
B
Yeah, I think I was about that age at 14 when my parents put me on a bus and I went to go see my grandparents. From Central Texas to North Texas, about a five hour trip. Would parents do that today?
- [23:53]
A
I think they.
- [23:54]
B
On a bus.
- [23:55]
C
I think they would do it on a plane. I don't know about a bus.
- [23:57]
B
Yeah, I don't know about the bus either. And I remember it was sketchy. There were several people asked me for money and it was pretty wheels off. But that's. I had that same feeling of, okay, I can make it in this world without.
- [24:09]
C
The first time you navigate the world by yourself is a huge deal.
- [24:12]
B
But on a bike, going all that distance. No. And I've heard you tell that story before. I didn't realize. But it was your dad's idea.
- [24:21]
A
Yeah. And I think about that with my daughter today and the, the battle that parents have in wanting to give their kids independence, to give them some confidence. But also, you know, you. You are the. The gatekeeper of your kid and you're trying to keep them away from danger and things like that. And I catch myself sometimes trying to do too much for my daughter.
- [24:45]
C
Yeah.
- [24:46]
A
And I need to let her do pretty much most of it on her own. But I was always thankful to my parents for it. Just showed they had confidence in me that they believed that I could do this or they wouldn't have let me do it if they didn't.
- [25:02]
B
Yeah. That's really cool.
- [25:11]
C
Jim Rome takes on sports.
- [25:13]
D
Why? Because you're not playing me with rapid fire.
- [25:17]
A
Takes.
- [25:17]
D
Y' all went from the super bowl straight to the toilet bowl. He's not over the NFL. The NFL is over him.
- [25:23]
A
Scorching debates.
- [25:24]
D
All the good, all the bad, all the ups, all the downs.
- [25:28]
A
He's the spitfire of sports smack.
- [25:30]
D
Sorry for what I said because it was appropriate when I said it, but I can't say it anymore. Dude, you are killing the game.
- [25:37]
A
The Jim Rome show podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Then in college, I started racing. I discovered bike racing. There was a little bike shop in Denton called Goose Inn, right across the street. The English Building over there in Fry Street.
- [25:53]
B
Yeah.
- [25:54]
A
And I used to go in there and I was riding a lot, and I started riding with these guys and some of the team guys, and they encouraged me to start racing. And for years, I had wanted to race, but I didn't think I could. I didn't think I was good enough. Even though I won the McGinnis High School time trial, I still didn't think I was good enough because I just thought those guys were a cut above. And I probably still had athletic inferiority complex or something. But I started going out with these guys, training with them, and I took out my racing license, and for years I'd been reading racing magazines and Greg LeMond, the American cyclist who was the first to win the Tour, he was the first American that really splashed on the scene. And so I had followed his career from the beginning, and I wanted to race. I wanted to be like him. So when I first got my license and I did a few races in 85 and then 1986 was my first full year racing, and I just completely fell in love with the sport. Too long to go into what makes that sport great. But just the Cliffs Notes version, It's a niche sport. I understand it's not a sport for everybody, but to me, it's the most fascinating sport in the world because it involves the element of speed. You know, if you're going down the mountainside, you're going 50 or 60 miles an hour. So it's like combines downhill skiers with the endurance of a marathon runner. But it's also a chess match because you have all this strategy going on. And the more I got into bike racing, it's a team sport, but it's really an individual sport. It's a fascinating, complex undertaking to be in a bike race and to try to do something in a bike race. Some people are just hanging on and you're happy just to finish, but if you want to actually engage and try to win or try to help your teammate win, there's so much going on. It's so complex, and it's really, really hard And I think suffering is a part of what makes us all grow. And you know, too much suffering is not a good thing. But if you go through these moments of physical hardships, I think it just makes you a better, tougher person. And bike racing has always done that for me.
- [28:12]
B
Speaking of the pain, I've asked you this a number of times and I still don't get it. How does your butt take it being on a seat for that long? I mean, we sit in a studio for three hours and your butt can fall asleep on that little seat. Why don't they bring back the banana seat or at least a more comfortable seat.
- [28:29]
C
Wait, they gotta cut down on weight and you gotta make everything small. But I think it's like anything Giorgio, it's the comparison to you would be how do you play guitar all the time? It seems like after every day that you play guitar, your. Your fingers would hurt so bad you couldn't play the next day. And the answer is your fingers get used to it and your butt gets used to it and then it goes away.
- [28:53]
B
So you have calluses on your butt just like I have calluses on the end of my fingers.
- [28:57]
A
You don't have calluses, but your butt.
- [28:59]
C
Just the bones used to nerve fatigue too. It's like your nerves learn to not register that as pain anymore.
- [29:06]
A
Yeah, but even today I've been riding 50 years, and even today you're constantly moving around on your seat. You're never just seated on it in one spot or you will start to go numb. So I fidget every few seconds during a ride just to keep the blood flowing down there. Sure.
- [29:23]
C
And I have a few questions about this. When you're on these long distance rides, first of all, which part, or was it all of the parts that appealed to you? Is it the. Did the speed appeal to you most or did you like the long distance rides more than you liked the short, sprinty type events? Which was. Where did your passion and interest fall?
- [29:44]
A
I think of initially and probably still to this day. The. The distance was the most appealing. The fact that I just got this self satisfaction out of no, it's like climbing a mountain. I rode 100 miles. That's really cool. I just felt good about myself. The speed element I've always just kind of dealt with, but I've never loved it. Like I've never loved diving through a corner at 25 miles an hour or going down a mountainside at 55 miles an hour. I still get really nervous doing all of that. But to race, you had to get Comfortable with that. You had to get comfortable going 30 miles an hour in a pack with riders elbow to elbow, and there's no room. If there's a crash or something happens, you're going to go down. You just have to kind of give in. There's a stupid gene in there somewhere that you're accessing. But, yeah, for me, it was always the feeling of accomplishment, of riding a great distance. I got that when I was really young with my cousin Douglas. We used to ride bikes in Lancaster from his home to Wilmer or to Hutchins or to Red Oak. And we'd come back home and we'd tell my aunt and uncle, yeah, we rode to Wilmer today. And they were like, you rode your bicycles to Wilmer. And it made me feel good that they couldn't believe that we rode that far.
- [31:04]
C
You're impressing adults. Can't even imagine it. And, yeah, I think. And I, too, through you, got interested in bike racing and what an amazing, amazing sport it is. And it is a sport I never would have considered or thought twice about had I not been close friends with you. And you've tolerated all my annoying questions of why do they do this? Why do they do that? I don't understand why this guy's not pedaling faster. If he can beat his teammate, why doesn't he do well? He works for the other teammate and, you know, the intricacies of the sport, which make it absolutely fascinating. So I've loved getting into it. I do want to ask you about the mental aspect of it. When you're on the bike, what do you find your mind occupied with? Or is it. Do you get into a meditative metronome state where your mind kind of disappears? Or do you find yourself thinking about problems, your life, Are you working on things in your mind while you're going?
- [32:05]
B
Or.
- [32:05]
C
Or is your mind tuning out? And that's one of the appeals of it.
- [32:10]
A
That's a good question. In a race, you're pretty much in that metronome state, only thinking about what your competitors are doing. You're taking in everything. Is this guy breathing hard? How's this guy looking? Is he. What's this team trying to do? So you're thinking of the chess match, and you're kind of zoned out because you're expending so much physical energy. You don't have a whole lot of other calories to burn on your mental energy. So you're just thinking about the race. But on a training ride, or, you know, just a normal ride, I'M thinking about everything. I think a lot about our radio show and topics and what I would say about this. And would this make a good topic? I think a lot about this podcast. What would make a good topic? How would I structure a segment or a topic? But I think about everything. It's always been my therapy. If I have something going on in a relationship, that's where I sort it out. If I have something going on with a family member, if I have something going on at work, if I have anything that's causing me anxiety, I can't wait to ride my bike so that I can mentally process it, spend a couple hours just sorting through it. And I always feel better after a bike ride. I feel normal after a bike ride. And so it's my psychiatrist.
- [33:29]
B
What about the fear factor? Do you have more fear now than you did 20 years ago?
- [33:34]
A
Yes.
- [33:34]
B
Now that you're older and you think I'm not going to take that risk, that maybe you would have years back.
- [33:40]
A
It's because I'm older and because I'm a father now. So those two things have me taking way less chances.
- [33:47]
C
And you're living in a city that does not respect the bike rider too much.
- [33:51]
A
Dallas is better now, but it's traditionally been a terrible city to ride bikes in. And I was never a big risk taker. I've lost many, many, many races because I refuse to take a risk. And I've never really. It's meant a lot to me and I've put an awful lot into the sport over the years and I have taken a lot of risks that I look back on and I can't believe I actually did that. But I've also not taken a lot of risks because I just want to save my skin. And now more than ever, I stick to the bike trails in Dallas. I stay off the roads unless I'm with a big group because people are just very angry out there. Cars are angry and I don't want to crash and I don't want to be hit by a car. I want to come home to my wife and daughter. So I. Yeah, I think a lot about that these days.
- [34:41]
B
And you say it's getting better. I wonder about that because we have a lot of cyclists live out in the country. We have a lot of cyclists around us and it's always been a, from what I can see, a good relationship. We're very respectful of their room and, you know, they don't take up all the road, but around in the bigger areas of the Metroplex or wherever you May ride. When you go out of town and ride, is it, is it really better now than it was 20 years ago?
- [35:09]
A
It's only better in Dallas, Fort Worth because our trail system has been greatly expanded so you can do a 50 mile ride and never see a car. So that's great. So that makes Dallas at least. And Fort Worth's always had a decent trail system, makes it a lot better and a lot safer. But getting out on the roads is awful. It's worse than it's ever been, mainly because of the cell phone. People are distracted. Road rage. There's more traffic. So people are just angrier. People have always been. We've talked about this a lot on our radio show. They're just angry when they see a bike on the road for some reason.
- [35:45]
C
Yeah. It almost just triggers irrational hatred immediately.
- [35:49]
A
And I've been buzzed so many times. I've had so many close calls and thank the Lord I've never been hit. But just about everybody I ride with has been hit at least once. You know, run off the road, something like that. So I try to stick to, to the bike trails these days because we've got a great system of paved trails in Dallas and they're just a lot safer.
- [36:11]
C
The other thing that I loved about cycling and also laugh about cycling is there's no other sport that fetishizes the suffering more than cycling, like flat out just loves. It loves pictures of cyclists with huge, contorted, anguished faces. That whole sport, absolutely lust over suffering. Misery, yes, they love misery. And hero tales are born out of that misery. But I love it. I love that they do that because that is what gives life meaning is suffering. And these bicycle races are the things that when you think about your life, the things you're proud of accomplishing are always the hard things. It's never the easy thing. If the marathon was easy to complete and run, then everyone would do it. But that's why you see people. And this goes back to kind of a religious idea. There's something about self mortification that is so spiritually meaningful to us. And that's why people cry at the end of marathons. It's not because they. The joy of finishing it. The joy of finishing it would not be there if it had not been for the suffering of getting to that point.
- [37:29]
A
Right.
- [37:29]
C
If there's no suffering, then there's no meaning to the accomplishment. And that, that's what's so great. Watching these cycling events is particularly in a three week cycling race, you see the person suffer through all that. And so to see them accomplish what they accomplish means so much more.
- [37:46]
A
There's a famous photo of this famous Italian racer from the 50s or 60s, and he's racing with a broken collarbone, and he couldn't grip the handlebars because his collarbone hurt so badly. So he got some bar tape, handlebar tape, and he. He tied it around his handlebar, and then he bit the other end of the tape just to pull back on the bare.
- [38:09]
C
The.
- [38:10]
A
So he couldn't pull back with his hands, but he pulled back with his teeth. And of course, that's been. That's the most legendary cycling photo.
- [38:16]
B
Maybe get any better than that.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah, because this guy's racing with a broken collarbone, but he still has to.
- [38:20]
C
Get out there and race that tenacity.
- [38:24]
A
Yeah.
- [38:24]
C
And what was the famous story of that cyclist that I think ended up dying? Didn't he crash? And before he died, his last words.
- [38:31]
A
Were, put me back on my bike.
- [38:32]
C
Back on my bike.
- [38:33]
B
And make sure you get a picture of it.
- [38:35]
A
That was Tommy Simpson, the great British rider. Now, he had amphetamines in his system, which is why he had a heart attack and crashed. But there have been some other cyclists that have crashed, and they didn't make it. It's a dangerous sport. I don't love that element of it. People have asked me, do you want your daughter to get into bike racing? No, too dangerous. I'd be way too nervous because it's just because you're out there with cars.
- [39:00]
B
But you wanted to ride, you wanted to experience the.
- [39:03]
A
Definitely wanted to ride. I've also always thought, and this is maybe one reason why it brings me so much joy, that riding a bike is the closest thing that we come to actually flying as human beings. Because if you're on, say, a racing bike, your back is parallel to the ground, so your stomach, you know, is parallel to the ground like a birds would be if they were flying. And nothing is touching the ground yet you're moving along the surface at 15, 20, 25 miles an hour in that position, it feels like flying.
- [39:37]
B
Okay. I've never thought about. About it that way before, but that was the feeling you had as a kid. Just like, yeah, you're flying. It was quiet, just cutting through the wind. I can see that.
- [39:48]
C
And what's strange is how we get into adulthood and how many of us stop riding bikes when that was such a huge, joyful time of our childhood. And here, in this day and age, when we even go back, There's a new trend that we spoke of on our radio show recently. About adults using pacifiers that retreating back in stressful times, retreating back to the safety and magic of childhood. Why aren't more people riding bikes in adulthood actually a socially acceptable way to return the job?
- [40:23]
B
Where is cycling in America now? Do we need another Greg Lamond or Lance Armstrong light the fire again?
- [40:30]
A
You think, yeah, the only thing American sports fans care about is the Tour. And if you're an American winning the Tour, then everybody's in. We don't have anybody that can win the Tour right now. Haven't had anybody in a long time since Lance that could win the Tour. And of course, his story is his story. But America doesn't care about single day races. In America, the racing scene is shrinking. More people are going to gravel because it's safer, I think, because you're not dealing with cars so they can go out and ride on dirt roads and trails. But the road racing scene is shrinking. The criterium scene, which is this small race, it's usually around, say, a one mile square. You can do that in a parking lot, a neighborhood. You don't have to get out on many streets. That still is thriving in a lot of cities. But the road racing scene, it's so hard to put on a road race these days in America because nobody wants.
- [41:28]
C
The road shut down.
- [41:29]
A
Yeah, you have to get all these permits from counties and cities and police departments. And roads are too busy these days to shut down. So the road racing scene is really dying in this country. We don't really have any big pro road races. We used to in the 80s and 90s and aughts, but those have gone by the wayside. So it's never been a big sport in this country. It's a massive sport in Europe. It's still probably number two or three in Europe behind soccer. And basketball's getting big. But bike racing was always right there with soccer when I was growing up as a European sport, those were the two sports Europe cared about. But here it's always been a struggle.
- [42:09]
B
Because you're such an accomplished cyclist, you got to ride a bike with a president.
- [42:15]
A
I did, yes. We got to know George W. Bush through the Bush center and a P1 who worked for the Bush center and the President.
- [42:25]
C
P1 is a listener to our radio station. Is that what you mean?
- [42:27]
A
Thank you. Yes. That's a nickname we have in Singapore right now.
- [42:30]
B
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [42:31]
A
For our Singapore listeners. That is the nickname we give our die hard radio listeners. And they invited the three of us to come down to the Bush Ranch for his Wounded warriors bike ride that he does every year. And so we got to actually go to Crawford, go behind the big gate. Security.
- [42:51]
B
I was so nervous. One of my band members had left something in my pickup truck when we had to go through security.
- [42:57]
C
What would they have left?
- [42:58]
A
I don't know.
- [42:58]
C
Just something offensive to security.
- [43:01]
A
And I had a mountain bike, and I got to do the ride with the President and with all the soldiers, and I never got to ride next to him. We did talk to him, but he took off. And he knew those trails on his ranch. And he's a great mountain bike rider. He really is.
- [43:19]
C
Which is a whole different sport. Mountain bike riding. I love the detail and techniques of that are just unbelievable to me.
- [43:26]
A
I've done a lot more of that lately. Been spending more time in New Mexico, and there's some great trails up there. And while the road bike makes me feel like a kid every time I get on the ride, just because you can go wherever you want and do whatever you want and explore whatever you want, mountain biking makes you feel even more like a kid because you're on a dirt trail.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah.
- [43:46]
B
And Gordon and I were watching this ride that you were on. We were in a four wheeler, I think, or a golf cart.
- [43:54]
C
Two different places. And we'd sit on the side when everyone came by and came through. Yeah.
- [43:58]
B
And when the President would come by, Gordon. Gordon was wearing a shirt that said Shotgun Willie on it. And he'd go, shotgun Willie, Big George.
- [44:06]
C
The old Willie Nelson shirt. Shotgun Willie. Yeah. I think I read somewhere, juniors. Tell me if this is true, because.
- [44:14]
A
I think this is.
- [44:14]
C
The stat is that the bicycle remains the most energy efficient form of transportation to this day.
- [44:22]
A
Yes.
- [44:22]
B
Okay.
- [44:23]
C
Like the amount of energy expelled versus the work that's then produced from it. The geared bicycle is still unmatched.
- [44:32]
A
Yeah. And you go to some cultures in Europe. Like when I went to Amsterdam, I couldn't believe the number of people on bikes. And bikes have the right of way there. And most people ride bikes to work or ride bikes to the grocery store. Everybody's got a basket on their bike or.
- [44:48]
C
Yeah, you'll see. You'll see people over in Europe. I mean, they'll have like five kids hanging off of the bike, too. They'll have those bake fits or whatever they're called. And in Holland, where they have a huge bucket on the front of the bike and the mom will be pedaling with like five kids in the front of the bike.
- [45:06]
B
I noticed that in London, they're just right in the middle of traffic. Bicycles, trucks, buses, no problem. Motorcycles, they all seem to just, yeah, make their way.
- [45:17]
A
That's another part of the bike and how important it's been in my life and the travels that I've taken with my bike to France many times to see the Tour in person, that was another memorable moment for me. 1993. Went with my buddy Dave and his wife and we hiked up a mountain. We waited for the race to come through. I'd been reading about this race in magazines for 15 years and watching it on TV and I'm about to actually see it in person.
- [45:44]
C
You spray painted a penis on the road. Remember you said you did that, which.
- [45:47]
A
Is what they do. We didn't really.
- [45:49]
C
Strange fine tradition.
- [45:51]
A
They do that. It's so childish. But like 45 minutes before the race comes through, everybody starts getting antsy and you got some people watching it on TV or listening on the radio. You start hearing helicopters down in the valley. We were on the Golibier, which is this giant mountain in the French Alps. And then as the race gets closer and closer, you hear this noise, noise coming up the mountain. And then the caravan comes through and they're throwing the sponsors each have a little car that comes through and throws a sample of their coffee or their gummies or something. And then the press comes through and then there'll be this lull and then you hear sirens and horns blaring, crowd goes crazy. The sea of humanity parts. And the first rider I ever saw in my first trip to witness the Tour in person was Miguel Inderaid, the Spaniard. The tall, handsome Spaniard who won five straight tours and he was wearing the yellow jersey. And as the crowd parted, here comes Indurain in the yellow jersey and he rides one foot in front of me. And it was just. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I couldn't imagine anything better.
- [46:58]
B
Would 10 year old Craig have ever believed that, that you're going to see that in person?
- [47:02]
A
No.
- [47:03]
B
The yellow jersey right there.
- [47:05]
A
No, never. But because of the bike, I got to see it. I have ridden those roads over there many, many times. I've taken many trips over there. I did my. What the thing I may be the most proud of outside of my family and my career and things like that, we have to do all the carve outs. But equal to what I did that day when I rode those two days, my bike to my cousin's wedding 10 years ago or so, I did a minimalist trip to France where I took my bike and I landed in Toulouse in the south west part of the country. Stored my bag and everything at a hotel. I had a very small bag under my saddle on my bike, and in that bag I had a pair of street clothes, a pair of slippers, a phone charger, a toothbrush, deodorant and some tools.
- [48:03]
B
That sounds like how we pack for training camp. We're noted under packers.
- [48:07]
A
And my passport. And I set off on a 10 day loop through southwestern France. And I rode, I think an average of 70 miles each day. And I had my hotels picked in every town. So I just rode from point to point and it was just me and my bike and I had really nothing else. And I'd get into that next town every afternoon about 3 or 4, and I would change. I would wash my bike clothes in the sink and hang them up to dry to wear the next day. I'd put on my one pair of street clothes. And then I'd go out and see the town, have dinner, go to sleep, get up the next day, do the same thing over and over. For 10 days I was by myself, just me and my bike. And it was one of the greatest things I've ever done.
- [48:48]
C
We never told you one of the gags we want to do. We were going to call and cancel your credit card about two days into that trip.
- [48:55]
B
That would have been a funny prank.
- [48:56]
C
Just a little fun prank.
- [48:57]
B
I do remember being worried about you on that trip because wasn't that the summer that they were kidnappings?
- [49:03]
A
Yes.
- [49:04]
B
By terrorists.
- [49:05]
A
Yes.
- [49:05]
B
And we thought that you would look like the perfect person to kidnap. And yeah, we were concerned for you, but what a great trip.
- [49:12]
A
It was so much fun. And you're taking back small country French roads, and you're going through these little towns. And in France, everybody's interested in the bike and they all want to talk to you about it.
- [49:24]
B
They hear your tale.
- [49:25]
A
Yeah, they want to hear the tale. And so I met a lot of interesting people and saw some incredible things and beautiful scenery. And like you were talking about Gordo at the beginning of this episode, the bike, or in your case nowadays, the motorcycle, you are seeing the world in a way that you cannot see either by foot or by car, because you're covering a lot of ground, which you can't on foot, but you're seeing everything. Because in a car you've got a roof and windows and mirrors.
- [49:54]
C
In a car, you're in a car.
- [49:56]
A
Yeah.
- [49:56]
C
On a bike or a motorcycle, you're in the world.
- [49:59]
A
Yes.
- [50:00]
C
There's nothing that separates you from the world around you.
- [50:03]
A
And I feel Like, I know Dallas intimately because I see it by bike every day. And I ride through all parts of Dallas.
- [50:11]
B
So you notice all the buildings, north.
- [50:13]
A
South, markers, east, west. I see the homeless population. I see the richest of the rich. I see every neighborhood. I ride everywhere in this town. And I see all these little restaurants and shops and the big ones and beaten down strip malls and North Park Mall, and I just see everything. And I feel like I know this city so intimately because it's wide open to me every day. Interesting, fun.
- [50:38]
B
Maybe someone's listening to this right now and he will be the next great cyclist in America.
- [50:44]
C
Or she.
- [50:45]
B
Or she.
- [50:46]
A
That's right. That's right. You know, one very trying to exclude.
- [50:52]
B
Exclude the woman cycle.
- [50:54]
C
Why don't you stop talking?
- [50:55]
A
Okay.
- [50:57]
C
I'm angry with you now.
- [50:59]
A
And by the way, for those who are thinking about taking up cycling or rediscovering cycling, a byproduct, you stay in shape. I think it's the best way to stay in shape because it's easy on the joints. Now, if you crash, that's another story. You may be in the hospital, but it's easy on the joints. It's a ton of fun. You know, people hate going to the gym or they hate running, and I can vouch for that. Running sucks.
- [51:22]
B
Yeah.
- [51:22]
A
But the bike is fun and it's a great way to stay in shape and to do it until you're 80 or 90.
- [51:29]
C
So what's the deal with helmets now? When we were kids, we didn't wear them and.
- [51:32]
A
No, no, we did.
- [51:34]
C
I didn't know any kid that got a head injury, but I'm not saying I'm not against helmets. It just seems odd that now I would never even consider riding a motorcycle or even my bike without a helmet.
- [51:46]
B
But, yeah, when's the first time you put on a helmet? When you started actually going on long.
- [51:50]
A
Rides or when my dad got me that nice bike, and it was probably right before that bike trip to Shamrock. I remember he got me a bell helmet at Pro Bike in Oklahoma City. And it was a huge white helmet, giant by three times the size of my head. But that was my first helmet. So, yeah, when I was 14, I started wearing a helmet. But even after that, when I would go out on training rides for, you know, the seven or eight years after that, I never wore a helmet even longer than that. Maybe into the early 90s, when I'd go out and ride, I would never wear a helmet. Maybe we started wearing them around 1990, but the first year I raced was the first year the United States Cycling Federation required helmets. So if I had started the year before, I wouldn't even had to wear a helmet in a race.
- [52:41]
C
And the first Tour that had required helmets, when was that? That would have been the 90s.
- [52:46]
A
It would have been early aughts. Because even in some of Lance's early Tours.
- [52:51]
C
Yeah, I remember him riding without a helmet.
- [52:53]
A
Yeah, he didn't have to wear one. I think it was after Andre Kivalev died, the Russian pro cyclist in the Tour. I think that next year they made them all wear helmets, every stage, all the time. So. Yeah, because by Lance's fifth or sixth, he was always in a helmet.
- [53:11]
B
Did entertainment affect your love for cycling? Breaking Away was that.
- [53:16]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [53:17]
B
Were you already in love with the sport? But that. Did that propel you in any way?
- [53:21]
A
No, I was already in love, but I love that movie. That was such a great movie. That made me love the sport even more. But no, I was. I was already hook, line and sinker by the time that came out.
- [53:30]
C
I've never seen it. I bet you it's cheesy now.
- [53:33]
A
No, it's still great.
- [53:34]
B
What I remember is a good movie.
- [53:35]
A
Yeah, I've watched it recently. It still holds up. There are cheesy parts.
- [53:39]
C
That's the one where the guy's holding the jam box over his head trying to get the girl.
- [53:44]
A
No, say anything.
- [53:47]
B
Yeah, that's what that.
- [53:49]
C
I will. I will.
- [53:50]
A
Yeah. That's the only good cycling movie. Some people think American Flyers with Kevin Costner, our friend.
- [53:55]
B
I thought that was decent. As a non cyclist. Was it unstable?
- [53:58]
C
We met him once. I doubt he's our friend twice. George has met him twice.
- [54:04]
A
Very unstable when it comes to cycling. The story was okay, but very unstable when it comes to the bike racing scenes and things like that.
- [54:12]
C
Most sports movies are unstable.
- [54:15]
B
They never should have put John Candy as the lead in that. As a cyclist.
- [54:19]
C
He's not the lead as a cyclist.
- [54:22]
A
Kevin Costner was actually very good in that movie.
- [54:24]
B
Was he? Was he a cyclist?
- [54:25]
A
Yeah.
- [54:26]
B
Okay.
- [54:26]
A
Yeah. I don't want to give it away.
- [54:30]
C
Please give people a chance to see it first.
- [54:34]
A
So that's my passion, the bike. I really could talk for hours about it, but I think I hit the highlights there. You can see why it's been so important to me in my life and how it's just been this signature throughout my life and this companion and it's been with me through thick and thin. It's helped me get through good times and bad times and. And I still, I'm 59. I still look forward to it. I'm about to have ankle surgery here in a couple weeks and I'm not going to be able to ride for like a month or two. And I can't tell you how much it's driving me crazy.
- [55:06]
B
Boy, that will be something.
- [55:07]
C
You're a good friend, Junes. George and I are going to ride for you.
- [55:11]
B
Gordon's going to do now, why did.
- [55:13]
C
You pawn it off on me? I thought we're going to turns. Yeah, we'll get a tandem and we'll do your miles every day on our tandem.
- [55:20]
B
No problem.
- [55:21]
A
I appreciate that, guys.
- [55:22]
C
Arguing the whole time.
- [55:23]
A
Thanks for thinking of me. I can't wait to hear about your passions. In our next episode, which will drop next week, Gordo is going to tell us about his passion or passions in life.
- [55:34]
B
Could be like 13 of them.
- [55:36]
C
Price for it. Be surprised.
- [55:39]
A
That does it for episode nine, things we love. Thanks to Peter Welton, our producer and we'll be back again next week with Gordo's passions.
- [55:48]
B
Girl.
- [55:54]
D
Thank you so much for listening. Just one more request because apparently it's a big deal. Press follow or subscribe or a thumbs up button. It affects the algorithm. They tell us you can find the musers on all the social media platforms or send us an email themuserspodmail.com the musers. The podcast is a tired head production.
- [56:16]
C
I am Michael Rosenbaum. I am Tom Welling. Welcome to Talk Bill, where it's fun.
- [56:21]
A
To talk about Smallville. We're going to be talking to sometimes guest stars.
- [56:25]
C
Are you liking the direction Lois is going in?
- [56:27]
D
Yeah, because I'm getting more screen time.
- [56:28]
A
It's good, but mostly it's just me and Tom remembering. I think we all feel like there was a scene missing here. You got me time.
- [56:33]
C
Let's revisit it. Let's look at it. See what we remember.
- [56:35]
A
See what we remember.
- [56:36]
D
I had never been around any anything like that before. I mean it was so fun.
- [56:41]
C
Talk Vil Talk Bill.
- [56:42]
A
I just had a flashback follow and listen on your favorite platform. Let's get into it.