Lost in Space - Episode 39

Summary

The Musers The Podcast

Episode 39: "Lost in Space" (April 15, 2026)
Hosts: George Dunham, Craig “Junior” Miller, Gordon Keith

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners on an irreverent, insightful, and sometimes skeptical voyage into all things "space"—from the high drama of the Artemis 2 mission to the Moon, to whether humans could ever reach Mars, and on to the persistent allure of space conspiracy theories. The Musers bring their trademark banter and comic sensibility, balancing moments of awe with thoughtful questions and skepticism as they reflect on the human journey off-planet, the psychology of exploration, and the weird world of moon landing deniers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Space in the News: Artemis 2 & the Next Generation of Moon Missions

• Artemis 2’s Success: The Musers discuss the mission and technological leaps since the Apollo era—specifically the feat of decelerating from 24,000 mph to splashdown using parachute technology.
  • "As I watched splashdown of Artemis 2 the other day, it went from 24,000 miles per hour upon reentry to 19 miles an hour when it hit the Pacific Ocean. Because we still use the old fashioned parachute technology." – Craig (11:37)
• Unexpected Details: They express surprise that despite high-tech advances, certain elements, like parachute splashdowns, remain unchanged.
• Why Land in the Ocean? A humorous, half-serious debate about whether the Great Lakes could be a better landing spot than the salty Pacific.
• Astronaut Psychology: The crew focuses on the psychological strain of real space travel—everything from claustrophobia and longing for home to the realities of living for days in a small capsule with other individuals and the overwhelming smell inside upon return.
  • "When you are on the other side of the moon...you cannot imagine the longing that you have to get back to Earth and see your family." – Craig (14:12)
  • "They say the smell is overwhelming. The astronauts in the capsule smell like a barn." – Craig (16:05)
• Future Missions: They look forward to Artemis 3 (building a lunar landing module), Artemis 4 and 5 (further Moon landings), and see these missions as preludes to eventual Mars attempts in the late 2030s.

2. Will Humans Ever Reach Mars?

• Technical and Psychological Challenges:
  • The Musers are skeptical about the timeframes for Mars missions, especially considering trips are expected to take nearly two years round-trip, raising questions about human endurance and sanity.
  • "That's a long mission. That's a two year mission." – Craig (27:12)
• Discussion on Motivation:
  • Is space exploration about invention, national bragging rights, escape plans, pure curiosity, or a combination?
  • "Is it inventions...bragging rights...curiosity? Why we do this?" – Gordon (25:13)
  • "All of the above, I would say." – Craig (25:30)
• Why Not Explore the Deep Sea?
  • Gordon wonders aloud why deep-sea exploration never captured imaginations (or funding) the way space does.
  • "At night you sit back...and you see the stars...but nowhere do you sit and see the bottom of the ocean." – Craig (26:19)

3. Space Conspiracy Theories—Did We Really Go to the Moon?

• Greg McElroy’s Notorious Take: The episode devotes an extended segment to college football analyst Greg McElroy, who went public with his belief that the moon landings were faked, citing technological limitations ("no microwaves, no color TV") and distrust of the government.
  • "I'm not saying the Earth is flat. All I'm saying is that we didn't go to the moon in 1969." – Greg McElroy (32:05, audio clip replayed by Musers)
• Debate & Exasperation:
  • Craig and Gordon, exasperated, outline how experts like Neil deGrasse Tyson believe it would be harder to fake the moon landings (especially multiple ones) than just do them.
  • "Consider what it would actually take to hoax a landing on the moon. ... It's easier to just go." – Citing Neil deGrasse Tyson (34:43)
• How to Engage Skeptics:
  • Gordon draws a line between genuine skepticism and adversarial, immovable conspiracy-mongering:
    • "Anytime someone says, I'm not changing my opinion on that. No matter what anyone says to me, you don't want to argue with them." – Gordon (33:38)
  • The Musers note the rise of doubter "game playing" on social media—being a contrarian for the attention and inability to lose an argument, regardless of evidence.
    • "It's like a reverse brain teaser. It's fun because it makes your mind not work a little bit. And you win and you win and you constantly win." – Gordon (39:08)
• Modern ‘Moon Truthers’:
  • They discuss how the internet and the modern culture of "fake news" have boosted skepticism, and how the attitude is more about self-validation than truth-seeking.
    • "Now everything's not true and everything's true at the same time and it just doesn't matter." – Gordon (44:02)

4. Space Culture: Childhood, Sci-Fi, and the Human Connection

• Personal Fascination:
  • Craig describes collecting space stamps and attending Star Trek conventions as a boy, contrasting Star Trek's predictive brilliance to Star Wars’ spectacle.
  • "I was surrounded by Trekkies and yes, I was wearing a Captain Kirk uniform with the badge." – Craig (46:23)
• Star Trek’s Influence:
  • The Musers detail how Star Trek predicted (and inspired) much of modern tech, from cell phones to video calls.
  • "Star Trek was way more predictive of the future than any TV show ever." – Craig (48:10)
• Space as a Fun Fantasy:
  • Chewbacca Golf, anyone? For George, the openness of the universe enriches life:
  • "You know why I ultimately believe, or want to believe that there is life out there somewhere, intelligent life. Because I think that makes life here on Earth much more fun." – Craig (56:39)

5. UAPs, UFOs, and the Possibility of Other Life

• Government’s Change in Tone: Gordon notes the remarkable shift in how both media and the US government now address the topic of UAPs (unidentified anomalous phenomena), moving from mockery to serious investigation.
  • "Whenever the New York Times piece came out, that was a big watershed moment in the UAP discussion..." – Gordon (51:14)
• Suspicious Motivations:
  • He posits that when authorities are suddenly more open, they may be distracting the public from something else—maybe the “aliens” are really just us, or from another dimension or time.
  • "Here's the distraction. … They don't want you to know that it's men from this planet that are doing stuff or there are beings that are visiting us from perhaps our own planet, perhaps from a different time, a different dimension." – Gordon (52:52)
• Intelligent Life's Probability:
  • Craig finds it “egocentric” to believe Earth is the lone cradle of intelligence in an unfathomably large universe, though he’s more cautious about claims of actual alien visitation.
    • "I find it ludicrous … to imagine that we are the only intelligent life form." – Craig (53:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Dangers of Conspiratorial Thinking:
  • "You're in an argument that you can't lose." – George (39:29)
• On Technology, Then and Now:
  • "We didn't have microwaves but we can go to the moon." – Greg McElroy (32:16, cited)
  • "The microwave was invented in 1945. Color TV launched commercially in 1950 ... So we had those for decades." – Craig (41:02)
• On Artemis Astronauts’ Return:
  • "They commented, this is the furthest apart we've been from each other in a week and a half." – Craig (16:44)
• On Sci-Fi’s Predictive Power:
  • "Star Trek predicted communicators, which are today's cell phones..." – Craig (48:15)
• On the Next Big Thing for Humanity:
  • "Nine or ten months to Mars, then do whatever you're going to do there, then nine or ten months back ... That's a long mission." – Craig (27:12)
  • "If these Artemis 2 astronauts said that they felt this incredible loneliness ... how are the Mars astronauts going to feel?" – Craig (27:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sponsor Story (Clayton Kershaw, Jackie Robinson): 00:35 – 04:16
• Letter of the Week – Vet Story: 04:16 – 07:00
• Transition to Space Topic: 08:57
• Artemis 2, Capsule Design, Parachutes: 09:19 – 12:23
• Life in the Capsule (psychology, smell): 14:06 – 16:44
• Future Missions, Moon as Mars Jump-Off: 17:15 – 19:18
• Would You Be an Astronaut?: 19:33 – 21:31
• Space Toilets & Hygiene: 21:31 – 23:44
• Space Psychology, Mars Mission Duration: 27:12 – 28:22
• Planets in Order: 28:39 – 29:57
• Space Conspiracy Segment (Greg McElroy): 31:32 – 44:27
• Enduring Allure of Sci-Fi & Space: 45:19 – 49:19
• UAPs and Government Disclosure: 49:39 – 53:25
• Is There Other Intelligent Life?: 53:25 – 57:30
• Life in Neighboring Planets?: 57:30 – 59:06

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Final Takeaways

• The Musers blend science wonder, cultural nostalgia, and critical skepticism, inviting listeners to marvel at humanity’s space efforts while poking fun at modern conspiracy culture and their own limitations as “astronauts.”
• While playful skepticism abounds, there's a real sense of admiration for human daring—"the bravest who ever lived"—and for the mind-expanding possibilities space offers, as both a frontier and an inspiration for imagination and innovation.

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For More:
To hear other episodes, check out The Musers The Podcast back catalog (Episodes 1–38) or subscribe for future releases. For questions and stories, email themuserspodmail.com.

Transcript

[George]

When you want to play golf with Chewbacca, teach him how to play golf.

[Craig]

Welcome to episode 39 of the The Podcast. I'm Craig.

[George]

I'm George.

[Gordon]

I'm Gordon.

[Craig]

And this week we're going to talk about what has been front and center in the headlines recently, and that is space. With the Artemis 2 mission to the moon. We're going to talk about that mission, our past missions to the moon, will we ever get to Mars? And we'll try to get inside the mind of the space conspiracy theorists. So this will be perfect. Three space cadets talking about space.

[George]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Which has always been one of my favorite topics. There's a lot to get into with space talk today, and we'll dive into that here in just a minute. First, a story about one of our sponsors, the Game Changers exhibit United by Sports, on display right now at the George W. Bush Presidential center in Dallas. Well, our friends over there a few weeks back asked me to moderate an evening with the great Clayton Kershaw and his wife Ellen. And before that evening started, we all got to tour the exhibit. And I have to tell you, if you're a sports fan or you're a student of American culture, you need to see this exhibit. It was pretty surreal, by the way, to be touring the exhibit with a Dodgers legend, Clayton Kershaw, as he and I are standing there looking at legendary Dodgers great Jackie Robinson's memorabilia from his great career. That was really weird, man.

[George]

How cool is that?

[Craig]

Yeah. And some of the stuff that they had there was amazing, including his 1952 All Star Game home run bat, a baseball signed by Jackie, and 21 of his 1955 World Series winning teammates, a glove worn by Jackie, which looked like almost nothing more than a winter glove that your kid might wear these days.

[Gordon]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

[George]

That had to hurt when someone threw it through smoke across the diamond at him. Caught it with that thing.

[Craig]

And I don't know how he caught it with it. It was hardly even bigger than his hand. And there wasn't really a pocket. You know, like the modern glove has this big pocket in it, but it just had fingers. It didn't really have a pocket.

[Gordon]

Mickey Mouse's gloves. It just fits his hand and he's a little puffy.

[Craig]

Yes.

[George]

I'm going to catch a line drive.

[Craig]

You see, they also had a survey that he filled out when he was in the minor leagues, and they gave this to all the minor leaguers. And one question asked of him was what he wanted to accomplish in his major league baseball Career. And he answered to help bring an end to the baseball color line where everybody else is answering. I want to be mvp. I want to make seven all star teams. That's what he was thinking, even in the minor leagues because he knew that he was going to break some ground.

[George]

Wow, what a story. And was President Bush like giving you a tour of his library?

[Craig]

No.

[Gordon]

So I want you to read this book. This is by Beverly Cleary.

[George]

It's called ripsy.

[Craig]

I did tour the game changers exhibit with the Kershaw's, but not the President. However, we had several interactions with him right after that. He came back to the green room and talked to us before and after the one hour interview that we did on stage at the Bush Center. And he was great. You know, he's in his 70s now, maybe almost 80, and looks great. Still plays a lot of golf. In fact, recently shot his age, George.

[George]

He's my hero.

[Craig]

And recently had a hole in one.

[George]

Whoa.

[Craig]

Two things you've always wanted to do. The President has done that recently and he did say to tell you two guys hi.

[Gordon]

That's so crazy to me. There's a former president who used to

[George]

be President of the United States.

[Craig]

I know it. Maybe one day we get him on the podcast. We've had him on the radio show. Maybe one day we get him on the podcast.

[George]

There's a chance of that.

[Gordon]

Didn't you say he listened? He brought up the fake Mack Brown.

[Craig]

Yes, that was his fake. His favorite character that you do was the fake Mac Brown.

[George]

You need to keep that in mind.

[Gordon]

Brain crazy.

[George]

Especially some of the things you say about fake Sally.

[Craig]

So Jackie Robinson, a great example of someone who helped unite us through sports in a true game changer. The George W. Bush Presidential Center's Game Changer exhibit, United by Sports, runs now through January 10th of next year. And we appreciate their support of this podcast. Okay, now it's time for our letter of the week. And this comes to us from Bob. He writes, I recently listened to the episode on pets and especially about the end of life for a pet. I wanted to share a story about my cousin who was a veterinarian with a small animal practice in Oklahoma. This story is from the late 70s, so things were different.

[Gordon]

It's not going any place good.

[Craig]

He had an elderly lady client with a more elderly dog. The dog was in extremely poor condition, so my cousin had been advising that the most humane thing would be to put the poor dog down. But the lady did not want to hear of it. So one day she calls and Said she was bringing the dog in for my cousin to put it to sleep. She dropped the dog off in a little basket and asked if she could come back in an hour to pick it up. My cousin euthanized the dog, and in about an hour the lady called and asked if she could come back and pick it up. They said yes. And then she said, I'm traveling two hours to see my sister, and I thought it would be a good idea to put the dog to sleep because he's so old, I thought he'd travel better while sleeping.

[Gordon]

Oh, no.

[George]

Well, you know, we gave him a little extra and he's really sound asleep.

[Gordon]

He ought to sleep.

[George]

Don't disturb him.

[Gordon]

At least a year. Keep an eye on him.

[Craig]

Panic set in, but my cousin told his staff to put the dog back in its basket, wrap it up in its blanket and load it in the car for her. And don't charge her. In about two hours, the lady called my cousin to report that her dog had died peacefully in its sleep and thanked him for all he had done over the years.

[Gordon]

He should have fessed up.

[Craig]

He said it could have backfired, but it worked out.

[George]

Yeah, somehow. Man, could you imagine?

[Gordon]

He's got to be honest on her.

[George]

Hey, I thought you wanted us to.

[Craig]

No, I think you just ride it out. And she feels like the dog died naturally in its sleep with her.

[Gordon]

But he's lying, though.

[Craig]

That's okay, right?

[George]

Out of a sitcom.

[Craig]

Yes. She was elderly. Just let her think that. It is stupid.

[Gordon]

Why do we have that euphemism, right? Putting an animal to sleep. We don't say that about humans, do we?

[Craig]

No.

[Gordon]

So why do we say it about animals? Why is it putting them to sleep

[George]

just makes us feel better?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

Yeah. But it causes confusion. It causes murder. Pet murder.

[Craig]

But this woman eventually passed away, having never known the wiser. So it's okay. If you have any stories or comments about anything we talk about, you can email us themuserspodmail.com.

[Gordon]

The United States Soccer Federation presents the U.S. soccer Podcast.

[George]

My name is David Goss, and I'm

[Craig]

joined by my co host, Megan Kleinenberg.

[Gordon]

And now we're giving people an inside

[Craig]

look at the World Cup.

[Gordon]

Time's ticking.

[Greg McElroy]

I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really

[Gordon]

stake their claim, and they want to

[Craig]

be on that World cup roster.

[Greg McElroy]

There's no doubt about it.

[Gordon]

Hosting the World cup on home soil comes with its pressures.

[George]

But we're just really excited, just as the people are.

[Gordon]

The U.S. soccer Podcast, presented by Henkel Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[George]

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[Craig]

All right. Now to this week's topic. Space, the final frontier. These will be the thoughts of the starship Musers on at least a two year mission, contractually speaking to boldly go where only about 2 million other podcasts have gone before. And I was really dialed in and I think you guys were to the whole Artemis 2 mission, were you not?

[Gordon]

Yes.

[George]

Yeah, I was semi dialed in. Now this is right in Yalls wheelhouse space. I'm somewhere in between. There's one part of the spectrum that has no interest in space and y' all are really into it. I'm somewhere in the middle of this thing. I'm fascinated by it. And I remember as a kid watching liftoff and watching the astronauts come back. I think we were Was the last mission 71 before this one?

[Craig]

I think that's right.

[Gordon]

I remember watching 2 wasn't it 72 somewhere in there I was last moon mission.

[George]

Yeah, moon mission. I was six or seven years old and remember being captivated by just thinking how I couldn't wrap my I still can't still can't wrap my mind around it.

[Gordon]

Yeah, there's a reason for that. What's that? I'm not so sure we went to the moon. So.

[George]

All right, we're getting to that.

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[Craig]

All right. I know you don't I know you don't believe that, but we're going to get to that later in this podcast because there are a lot of people that doubt that we've ever been to the moon. So if you're a 5 on that scale, I don't think I'm a 10. I don't know where you are, Gordo. 10 is the most interested you can be in space, but I'm about a seven and a half, maybe even an eight. I think the whole thing is amazing. I think it's the most amazing thing we've ever done. No doubt considering that 50 years ago with that technology. And I've always said that those astronauts that flew those Apollo missions, even the test missions leading up to the actual moon missions, are the bravest we've ever had. To strap themselves to the top of what looks now to be a pretty primitive rocket with all that fuel and power underneath and to blast off to the moon not knowing what's going to happen. I just think those people had the biggest balls of any humans that ever lived.

[Gordon]

They were brave actors, astronauts.

[George]

Stop it. You don't believe that.

[Gordon]

Stop it.

[George]

You don't believe that. No. And what we do now, I can wrap my mind around that because we've had years and years of progress in computers and now we have AI. How we did that back in the late 60s is still just incredible.

[Craig]

Yeah. And these rockets now are so much more powerful and faster. And the whole space program has come a long way as it should in 50 years with all of our technological advances. Yet as I watched splashdown of Artemis 2 the other day, it went from 24,000 miles per hour upon reentry to 19 miles an hour when it hit the Pacific Ocean. Because we still use the old fashioned parachute technology.

[George]

It works.

[Craig]

16 different parachutes deploy to start slowing

[Gordon]

down to land in the ocean.

[Craig]

Yeah. And then three. Yeah, right. And we can land it in the ocean. There's still some things that kind of haven't changed in 50 years.

[Gordon]

It seems weird to me that we land in the ocean because it's seems like the salt water would not be so good for those capsules, but I guess they don't reuse any of the capsules. I thought we got to reuse capsules. Right.

[Craig]

Well, now we're not quite there yet, but SpaceX has developed that technology where we are reusing the boosters, where they come back to Earth and land. Yeah.

[Gordon]

The capsules we reuse. Correct.

[George]

I don't know. But don't you think that there's. If it doesn't slow down the 19 miles an hour, you have a much better chance splashing down than you would hitting in the middle of Arizona.

[Gordon]

No, no, not Arizona. I'm talking about. We go into the Great Lakes. I mean, that's a big area. So, you know, we're probably within the margin of error. And it's fresh water, isn't it?

[George]

I don't think that's worth the risk of salt water versus fresh water.

[Gordon]

What.

[George]

What you just said you're worried about salt water and what it does to those. Yes, those capsules. I don't think they care enough about that.

[Gordon]

The electronics and those.

[George]

Well, I'm sure they care about it, but that's a. The Great Lakes are huge, but you got an entire ocean. Your. Your margin for errors is much greater out there.

[Gordon]

But I think that the margin for error that they land in, in the ocean is, what, like a mile? I mean, it's not like they were going to guess where in the Pacific they landed. I think they're pretty exact.

[Craig]

Yeah, they can dial it in. They were about 60 miles off the coast of San Diego, I believe, for this one. To answer your question, Gordo, I'm sure it doesn't matter otherwise. Yeah, they wouldn't land in salt water if it was ruining everything.

[George]

So I just want the Great Lakes to get some more events.

[Gordon]

Like a splashdown. Yeah, they need more events.

[George]

Splashdown, Duluth is something that you want to promote.

[Gordon]

I'm worried about the small businesses surrounding the Great Lakes, and we need an event for them to.

[George]

Event.

[Craig]

I thought hearing the interviews with the astronauts after they came back from the Artemis 2 mission was fascinating. The commander said it was the greatest thing he's ever done. Unforgettable. But he said, when you are on the other side of the moon and you're further out into space than any human has ever gone, you cannot imagine the longing that you have to get back to Earth and see your family. And that's something I guess I never thought of, because as a kid, I imagine being on a spaceship and heading out into the galaxy and just thought, that would be so cool. But these are the very few people that have been to space, you know, deep space. Not just some of these blue horizon things where you go up to. Or blue origin things where you go.

[Gordon]

Not the Katy Perry trip.

[Craig]

Yeah, not the Katy Perry trip. People who actually go into space.

[George]

Leave her alone.

[Craig]

And they all kind of commented that you can't imagine the weird combination of being excited, but also being incredibly lonely for Earth. You don't Realize how much you miss Earth?

[Gordon]

It's because we're not meant to go.

[George]

I wonder if they're ever on the edge of a panic attack.

[Craig]

Maybe.

[George]

I mean we get claustrophobia. Some of us do. I couldn't imagine being in that little compartment. You're weightless and then your brain's trying to process. No one's ever been here before. And how long were they without contact on the other side of the moon?

[Craig]

Wasn't it about an hour?

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[George]

Could you imagine that?

[Gordon]

Believe me, they have like a cattle tranquier in case one of them starts freaking out, the other one can zap them in the neck.

[George]

Do you think they do?

[Gordon]

Yeah.

[George]

You're making that up.

[Gordon]

Guaranteed they have medicine on board for a panic attack. Yeah, sure, they've thought of that. They thought of the saltwater thing, certainly they thought of Xanax.

[Craig]

You know what else was interesting? They also said that when people from the outside open that capsule door for the first time, the smell is overwhelming. The astronauts in the capsule smells like a barn. Get used to it. They said that, you know, they may smell something in the beginning, but then they don't smell anything after that because they get used to everybody else's B.O. and the stench. But then when someone from the outside first opens that door, that's what they've been living in for nine days in this case. Or 10 days.

[George]

Golly. Yeah. Could you imagine being around four or five people for nine days straight in a confined area?

[Gordon]

And the Muser's road trip of Texas, Kind of like that.

[George]

Kind of.

[Craig]

And the four astronauts from Artemis were on stage and they were, you know, six feet apart at one point and they, they commented this is the furthest apart we've been from each other in a week and a half. But yet they were still kind of close to each other.

[Gordon]

Yeah. And they say that the capsule was what, the size of a large SUV or something like that? I forget what they said the interior space of it was.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[George]

So it's pretty bigger on tv.

[Gordon]

It does. They're using fisheye lenses.

[Craig]

But thankfully this mission went off without a hitch. Now the next One is Artemis 3 and that's where they're going to test the lunar landing module that, that they haven't built yet. Right. NASA's in the works with Blue Origin and SpaceX. One of them will build it for NASA and that's supposed to happen next year, 2027. Then Artemis 4 and 5 will land humans on the moon and that should be in 2028. And one of the reasons they're doing this is. I don't understand all of this, but they said to collect water to test, to see if they can use it as fuel to then propel them to Mars eventually. And they would like to start the first missions to Mars by 2039 or 2040. So these return trips to the Moon are really about getting back to Mars.

[Gordon]

So wait, there's confirmed water on the Moon?

[Craig]

They think that. I guess that's part of it, that they think there is in one of these craters that's down below where we haven't gone yet.

[George]

It looks just like the Great Lakes.

[Gordon]

How does water get on the Moon?

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm not sure. Maybe it's buried where you got to drill for it. I'm not sure. But I think it's also to. I don't know about colonize the Moon, but we want to plant our flag again on the Moon because China says they want to be there by 2030. So we are again, kind of in a space race.

[Gordon]

I thought there was a treaty that said that the Moon was nobody's property, like no one can claim it.

[Craig]

Yes. And treaties have been broken time and time again. It's just. Do you eventually trust the countries that you're in a treaty with?

[Gordon]

No, of course not. Well, then why haven't we officially proclaimed it as ours?

[Craig]

Yeah, we should. We're the only people to put boots on.

[Gordon]

Yeah, we got a flag up there. I think there's an old Southwest Conference flag up there, too.

[Craig]

But now other countries will be able to get there at some point.

[Gordon]

Heck, we built a golf course up there. Should be ours.

[George]

I've built a golf course.

[Gordon]

I've seen a couple guys playing nine holes, hit a couple of shots.

[Craig]

Would you guys ever want to be an astronaut? Go to the moon? Did you ever have that desire as a kid?

[Gordon]

Yeah, when I was a kid, I definitely did. You know, now it's. I've always been amazed when I watch shows about those astronauts, how well rounded they are in their knowledge. Like, they. They know how to do calculus and all that kind of stuff.

[George]

Yeah, they're really smart. Just.

[Gordon]

They're really smart people, so. But I wonder if we've relaxed the rules on astronauts the way we have, you know, military to get recruits up and everything, like back in the day. I'm sure that those guys who were originally on there, they were well rounded, you know. What's his name? Neil Armstrong was the only one who wasn't in the military.

[George]

I just figured all. All of them were.

[Gordon]

He was the only civilian, I think that went up there.

[Craig]

Well, we've obviously relaxed things because Katy Perry went.

[Gordon]

Yeah. So if you can afford the ticket, you can be an astronaut.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[George]

Yeah. I don't think I could take the confined space. I just think I would go crazy with claustrophobia. I have a hard time on an airline.

[Gordon]

There's no way that you could take that Giorgio.

[George]

No.

[Gordon]

You're riding on a subway and freaking out one time.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

So let me ask you tore some old woman's throat out.

[George]

No.

[Craig]

Let me ask you this then because I don't think I could do it either. But as a kid watching Star Trek, they're on this giant spaceship with hallways and everybody's got their own room. And that's how I always envisioned going out into deep space on a spaceship like that. You could do that, right?

[George]

I think so, yeah. But I, I would be the one you would want to dart. After a couple hours, I'd probably start freaking out.

[Gordon]

The cattle tranquil at you at all times.

[George]

What if we run out of oxygen? Be worried about that.

[Gordon]

So you wouldn't want to go on this one. That's the size of a, an SUV and you have to crap in a phone booth.

[George]

It would have to be something from. Yeah, Star Trek, Star wars or Battlestar Galactica.

[Craig]

Did you ever see how they go to the bathroom? Like do they have some privacy when they pull the bag out?

[Gordon]

There's some door. I saw briefly them covering this and the bottom of that capsule. It was like in the floor and they could go in there and it almost is just the size of a person. I mean it's, it's really small. It's like a coffin. You have to get inside a coffin.

[George]

I just go on my pants and then.

[Gordon]

Well, I don't think that's an option.

[George]

It would be if I was up there. I wouldn't, wouldn't lock myself in a cab.

[Gordon]

Well, if those astronauts, God forbid, had the bad bathroom, what if your nerves

[George]

at an all time high.

[Gordon]

I bet they do because those electronics and everything liquid up there floats around the capsule. So you have to be very careful. They say the urine is the more treacherous of the two bathrooms that you can go to.

[George]

Really?

[Gordon]

Yeah. So if you had horrible bathroom, which that's always a chance. Nervous and anxious.

[George]

Not a problem for me. Never has.

[Gordon]

Imagine that floating around the capsule.

[George]

So you don't think they go to a buffet of unlimited enchiladas the night before.

[Craig]

No way.

[Gordon]

They have to control their job.

[Craig]

No way. And I wonder what they do for other hygiene. Like do they wipe with wipes every once in a while instead of taking a bath? They're not showering.

[Gordon]

No. Those are not even flushable up in space.

[George]

You think they have hell breath?

[Craig]

Yeah. Are they brushing their teeth?

[Gordon]

Brush your teeth, Right.

[Craig]

I would think so.

[George]

Where the coffin? The bathroom coffin.

[Gordon]

I don't know if it's inside the bathroom coffin, but. Well, you can't have a sink either. Right. Because you can't have running water because

[Craig]

you can't spit out your toothpaste. It would float up into space.

[Gordon]

Right?

[Craig]

Space.

[George]

I don't know.

[Gordon]

Maybe they're go outside the capsule for a little bit.

[George]

I don't think they brush their teeth for nine days.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's what they should do. Like, you see those. Well, it's happened, say at the International Space Station, where they're tethered, but they're floating out in space. That's what you should do when you go to the bathroom. And there should be some sort of Velcro opening on the back of your pants. Yes.

[Gordon]

You open up the back of your pants and you're wearing like a scuba mask. So you can still breathe.

[Craig]

Yeah. And you let fly and it goes off into space.

[Gordon]

Yes. Hastefully retreats into the darkness.

[Craig]

Yes. Keep the capsule clean.

[Gordon]

Keep the capsule clean. Maybe set it on fire as it retreats into the darkness.

[George]

You know, as wild. I was looking at some of their backgrounds. Captain Glover played football at Cal Poly.

[Craig]

Okay.

[George]

You think when he was playing football at Cal Poly, he used to think, yeah, someday I'm going to go to the moon. I mean, he was in aerospace engineering and yeah, I guess he took all that. But still, that's pretty wild because you just.

[Gordon]

I don't know.

[George]

That's a. I just think of these guys as, oh, they must have gone to Harvard. They must have gone to somewhere. But then he went on to graduate school and joined the Air Force and, you know, got his flying experience. But that's just wild. From Cal Poly to the moon and. Or around the moon, and everyone in the world knows who you are.

[Craig]

Right.

[Gordon]

What's the strategic advantage of the moon? Is it just as a launching place for Mars?

[Craig]

Well, I think that's part of it. And I think, I mean, I suppose anything can be spun to be a military advantage.

[Gordon]

You've got an weapon system.

[Craig]

Everybody from up there. Yeah. Who knows what. What war is going to look like in 50 or 100 or 200 years. And maybe that's a base as to

[Gordon]

the point of space exploration. I mean, is it inventions is that the main benefit of it is that we invent a bunch of stuff in order to do this ridiculous mission and then that benefits people on Earth? Is it bragging rights? Is it plain curiosity why we do this?

[Craig]

All of the above, I would say.

[Gordon]

Or is it an escape plan? Like it does worry me a little bit that Bezos and Branson for a while and Elon that all the rich guys know that we need to be building ships to get out of here. They know something.

[Craig]

Yes, I think it's all of the above. I think it's every bit of that. I think it's our curiosity to see how far we can get out there. What is out there? Is there life out there? I think it's part bragging rights. You want to be the first country to land on the moon, you want to be the first country to get to Mars. I think it's everything.

[Gordon]

But why that instead of deep sea exploration, like why is that not capturing the imagination and the money and the funding the way that space exploration does?

[Craig]

I think a simple answer is because at night you sit back in your chair and you look up and you see the stars and you want to go out there, but nowhere do you sit and see the bottom of the ocean.

[George]

I'm sure they had the same questions back in the 1400s. Why are we getting on these ships and going out into the. See, we know it's there. Why are we doing this? It's for exploration. It's unknown. Maybe.

[Gordon]

And for colonizing. George.

[George]

Well, that too. Once they found wrong, then wrong land. Yeah, well, yeah.

[Craig]

I'm curious what the missions to Mars will be like number one. I'm curious to see if we can get it done in 14 years. That's the time frame their goal at least. So that could happen in our lifetime For George and I, that is it going to happen in our lifetime? That starts getting a little dicier now that we're 60, but hopefully I have

[George]

a front row seat for it.

[Craig]

But this is supposed to happen in our lifetime and it's by the way, they think it'd be about a nine or ten month trip to Mars. Then do whatever you're going to do there, then nine or ten months back. So that's a long mission. That's a two year mission.

[Gordon]

That's a lot of driving time. That's a lot of. Are we here there?

[Craig]

Yeah, right.

[Greg McElroy]

Oh my God.

[Craig]

Gosh.

[George]

Yeah. Can a human do that? Can a human be gone that long?

[Gordon]

Think of how boring the license plate game's gonna Get.

[Craig]

Yeah. None.

[Gordon]

None, None. None.

[Craig]

Yeah. If these Artemis 2 astronauts said that they felt this incredible loneliness when they were on the other side of the moon, how are the Mars astronauts going to feel when they're six, seven months out into space?

[Gordon]

Yeah. That that ship's going to come back and there's no life still on board. They've all killed each other and gone feral.

[Craig]

Right.

[George]

Really long beards.

[Craig]

I mean, it could happen. You don't know what human psychology would do in a situation like that.

[George]

Yeah, that's that to me. Talk about. It's hard to wrap your mind around that one. Seems like. I don't think that's going to work.

[Craig]

Going to Mars.

[George]

All right, so based on all my research, I don't see how that one's happening.

[Craig]

Coming from the guy who, at the outset of this podcast, said he was only kind of into space.

[Gordon]

Right.

[Craig]

He's determined.

[George]

Like I said, based on my research. Two semesters of astronomy? Yeah, I don't think so.

[Gordon]

You took astronomy?

[George]

Yeah. I did, too, thinking it was going to be easy. That was not an easy class at all. Especially when you got into the math part of it. Project Speed and velocity. And I was like, gee whiz, can

[Gordon]

you name all of the planets in order from the sun on out?

[Craig]

Yes.

[George]

I know you guys can.

[Gordon]

What's the one?

[George]

No, I'm trying to think. There's a saying.

[Gordon]

There is. Every good boy does fine.

[George]

No, it's my very something mother. And it all stands for something.

[Gordon]

Is there. Our planet starts with an F. No,

[Craig]

you're right, because the first one is Mercury. So that's my variance. Is Venus. That's the second one.

[George]

Earth, third rock from the Sun.

[Craig]

Then Mars.

[George]

Yeah. Served us nachos. Seriously, It's Saturn. Uranus. As you always say. It's Uranus.

[Gordon]

Or is Jupiter served as nachos? Have a J.

[George]

No. Somewhere back before she served us nachos.

[Gordon]

Your mother just served us nachos. My mother. My mother just served us nachos.

[Craig]

And by the way, since then, Pluto has been kicked out of the solar system.

[Gordon]

Yeah. What happened?

[Craig]

We don't recognize that as a planet

[Gordon]

anymore, so we're down to eight planets. Yeah, but what is Pluto considered? Is it considered a satellite of.

[George]

It's a dwarf planet.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[George]

Well, you can't say midget planet.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Gordon]

I'm.

[Craig]

It's a. I'm vertically challenged.

[George]

Don't act all offended over there.

[Craig]

You know, a couple years ago, my wife got me a good telescope for Christmas and Man, that is the best. Yeah, that is so much fun to just point it at something and once you look through the eyepiece and you cannot imagine how many more stars you see compared to what you see with the naked eye.

[Gordon]

Do you have the tracking kind tracking telescope?

[Craig]

No, I don't. That would be cool.

[Gordon]

I got one of those.

[Craig]

Yeah. I have to manually track and isn't it cool how many satellites come through the viewfinder? Like every five seconds a satellite pops through there.

[George]

I've seen that with the naked eye in West Texas the satellite going by which is wild.

[Craig]

Yeah. All right, I want to get to this topic because I have so much to say and apparently we have a conspiracy theorist among us because there are a lot of people that do not believe we went to the moon with the Apollo missions back in the late 60s and early 70s and recently somebody that we all know through our radio station career and someone who appears weekly on one of our shows on the Ticket in Dallas.

[George]

Like everything else, a college football tie in right.

[Gordon]

Craziest people in the world.

[Craig]

This is Greg McElroy, the former Alabama quarterback. He's now a college football analyst. Does a bunch of different radio shows and appearances throughout the country. Well this is on the McElroy and Kubelik in the morning show on WJOX in Birmingham, Alabama. They were talking about the Artemis 2 mission and then McElroy let everybody know that he thinks this is the first time that we've ever been to the moon.

[Greg McElroy]

I'm not saying the Earth is flat. All I'm saying is that we didn't go to the moon in 1969. We didn't have microwaves but we can go to the moon. We didn't have colored television.

[George]

I don't know what microwaves have to

[Gordon]

do with getting to the moon.

[Greg McElroy]

It has to do with technology. All of a sudden we're going to travel deep, deep, deep into space. Oh just so happen to be going through the Cold War and an effort to bankrupt our and and put financial strain struggling and yeah, the American President, the sitting American presidents of the time are not exactly known for being 100% honest and transparent.

[Gordon]

Presidents were there at the time sitting

[Greg McElroy]

well, I mean started with Kennedy and it went all the way through and their Nixon and I mean who knows about Kennedy's. I mean there's a lot of weird stuff going on in the 60s.

[Gordon]

Okay, I think there's weird stuff going on now.

[Greg McElroy]

Definitely there's weird stuff going on all the time. So I don't trust a whole lot of what the government tells us. I don't buy it. There's a lot of conspiracies that we can go down if you want to go down, but one that I actually do subscribe to, I don't ever believe it went to the moon. I think it was complete propagandist mentality of. And people have tried to dissuade me. People have tried to present counter arguments. I'm not changing my opinion on that. I don't think we went to the moon. I think it was pure, genuine propaganda.

[George]

Okay.

[Gordon]

Anytime someone says, I'm not changing my opinion on that. No matter what anyone says to me,

[George]

you don't want to argue with them.

[Gordon]

It's just, this is something that I want to believe. And so you just say, hey, great, have a good day, man. Take care.

[Craig]

There are a lot of people that believe this. I would say it's a. Certainly not a majority, but there are a lot of people that don't think we've ever gone to the moon. And I happen to believe it's one of the most idiotic takes that anybody can have. And along the lines of just not being able to talk to these people. Harrison Schmidt, who was an astronaut aboard Apollo 17, was asked about people who don't think we landed any of those missions on the moon. He said, if people decide they're going to deny the facts of history and the facts of science and technology, there's not much you can do with them. For most of them, I just feel sorry that we failed in their education.

[George]

Wouldn't it be tougher to fake something like that than they actually pull it off like I think we have over the last 50 some odd years?

[Craig]

Yes. And in fact, Neil Degrasse Tyson, the famous astrophysicist, said, of course we landed on the moon. Consider what it would actually take to hoax a landing on the moon. By the way, we went to the moon nine times, so we'd have to hoax. Not going to the moon nine times.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

Why do all of the landings? Why not just fake the one and then say, okay, there, we did it?

[Craig]

He said two of them, they went around the moon, came back and didn't land. But we'd have to fake that too. Do you realize what that would take? It would be so hard to fake a moon landing. It's easier to just go. He says the laws of physics enable it, so people need to get over it.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but because. And this is what the professional doubter, once you become a professional skeptic in this sense, and it's not Even skeptic. Because it's not even just skepticism, it's believing in the opposite. You're dedicated. You're a dedicated contrarian is what you are at that point. Like, I think it's good to ask questions like, hey, you know, I just don't know that we went to the moon because of the way the flag that they planted, the way it was sticking out like that, that just wouldn't happen in the moon. And so that's one of the reasons I doubt it. Well, then someone answers your question, says, well, it was actually a rod that was holding the flag in that position so you could actually see the stars and stripes. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, I'll take that off my list of things that I use to support my doubt. And then you go to the next thing, and then you get the answer to that question, and then you get the answer to the next question. It's. If you're asking questions, actually listen to the answers too, and then change, then take that question that you had off the table after you get the answer. But the problem is, is the next time that guy talks to somebody, he'll go, and I just don't believe, you know, the way that flag also that they planted was doing it. You act like you never even heard the answer before.

[Craig]

Right, right.

[George]

So do you think there's a whole new round of doubters now with Artemis? 100% maybe didn't think much about it because they weren't around in the 70s, but now they hear and go, there's

[Gordon]

no way, because now it's a fun social game. One of the easiest ways to feel like you make a dent in the world is to cause a dent in other people's world. And by being annoying and being the guy who just doubts that the Earth is round or doubts that went to

[George]

the Moon or whatever the Mars mission will ever work.

[Gordon]

It's just. And you just go on people's shows and you say, I just don't think that's true. And then you listen to them do all the hard work of showing you the evidence that we actually went and everything. And then you just still sit back and go, I don't know. Just. I don't know.

[George]

Yeah, but the math works out up here. Look.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but I don't see how the math works out. So I didn't take any math courses or anything. I just. It doesn't make sense to me. Like, think about that. You can have a position that annoys everyone around you, and the only amount of work you have to do Is it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[George]

Doesn't add up.

[Gordon]

Doesn't add up.

[George]

No, it does. Look, there are 15 formulas up there that work out.

[Gordon]

Formulas can be manipulated.

[Craig]

Yeah. Just in this recent Artemis launch, I saw a lot of doubters online. Oh, did you notice that after it took off, it started going sideways? That means that they eventually landed somewhere. We're out of sight. But if you read about why rockets do that, and they all do that, it has something to do with physics and payload. And they can't just keep going straight up. Or the astronauts couldn't handle the G force. You have to kind of sideways your way through the atmosphere.

[Gordon]

But they don't want to listen to that answer. And I saw a couple guys, they were live watching it and live streaming. They're watching. There were two professional doubters who. We didn't go to the moon. And every time that they cut to a different camera, okay, there's an edit. There's an edit. Oh boy, there's an edit. There's no such thing as multi camera shoots anymore. They're all edits. They're edit.

[George]

Yes. So you think there's more doubters now than there were in the early 70s?

[Gordon]

Oh, yes. Because we have the Internet. And now that the mentality has sunken in that that's a fun way to be in today's world is to be the conspiracy theory theorist on everything. Because you can always find something that is just kind of specious. Right. It's kind of surface level doubterism that seems like it makes a little bit of sense. And then you just go with that. And it's fun. It's like a fun. It's like the reverse of a brain teaser. You know how brain teasers are fun because it makes your mind work a little bit. This is fun because it makes your mind not work a little bit. And you win, and you win and you constantly win.

[George]

You're in an argument that you can't lose.

[Gordon]

Yes. You're determined to not let the other person gain any points. So it's fine. Meanwhile, the person who's trying to show you is listening to your objections. I'm listening to your objections and I want to give you the evidence that would then disprove them.

[George]

We also have a very high profile person in this country who's introduced the word fake in a whole new way over the last ten years or so.

[Gordon]

George going political again.

[Craig]

It's not political.

[George]

It's an observation of our world. And there is a very high profile person who just Fake.

[Gordon]

Yeah. Well, I mean, that is true.

[George]

Buy into that.

[Gordon]

Is that all? And the thing is that some things are fake, right? Some things are inaccurate and not true. I mean, the media gets things wrong at times. Yeah, but the problem is, is that it becomes very easy now just to say, do. Do I do all the research to find out if something is fake, or do I just give a very simple thumbnail of a very simple litmus test of do I want something to be real or do I not want it to be real? That's what determines what's fake and real. It's not.

[George]

That is really where we are now, what you want to believe.

[Gordon]

Yeah, it's a gut thing. I go on my gut whatever makes you feel. And my gut says we didn't land on the moon.

[George]

Okay, good for.

[Gordon]

I don't need a bunch of evidence. Don't waste my time with all that.

[Craig]

Back to the arguments Greg McElroy made. He says he's 100% convinced we never landed on the moon, he said, because in 1969 we didn't even have the microwave or color TV.

[Gordon]

That's not true.

[Craig]

The microwave was invented in 1945. Color TV launched commercially in 1950 for the first time. So we had those for decades.

[Gordon]

Yes. So does this dissuade him or does he change his position? No, he just says, well, I mean, you know what I mean.

[George]

But back then, the microwave didn't have digital readout, though.

[Gordon]

Yeah, didn't have digital readout. So if we couldn't have digital readout on microwave, see how we got to the moon.

[Craig]

And his co host, who you could hear, was tolerating him but also questioning him. His co host said, what? What is one shred of evidence you have that we didn't go? And McElroy said, why did we never go back until now? 50 years. But we went back nine times or whatever. We had nine missions there and how many? Six or seven landed. We kept going back.

[Gordon]

Yeah, I know.

[Craig]

And then after 72, we did have a little bit of moon fatigue, but we started channeling our space efforts into Skylab and then space shuttles, the space shuttle program.

[George]

Is that possible?

[Craig]

And then the International Space Station. So we've been doing things up there and now we're going back to the moon.

[Gordon]

So to those doubters that think we didn't go to the moon, are they also think that we didn't have space shuttles?

[Craig]

That's a good question. I don't know.

[George]

Yeah, they would have to. I would think that's fake. Too.

[Gordon]

I just don't see how you can put people in a raft that's going to get up into space.

[Craig]

And you know what? It's also, I would think it's offensive to for example, the families of the astronauts of the Apollo 1 mission that burned up on the launch pad they lost fake.

[Gordon]

Was that one or three?

[Craig]

I thought it was one. It may have been three, but I think it was one.

[Gordon]

And it was Gus Grissom.

[Craig]

Yeah. Ed White, Roger Chaffee. And so those family members hear this. That the whole thing was faked. Well, so we sacrificed three Americans in order to fake.

[George]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

You're telling me that the American government doesn't have the ability to fake deaths? That's the only organization that can fake those deaths.

[George]

That's why we started faking them because we saw then that it couldn't work and we didn't want that to happen again.

[Gordon]

See, all you have to do is just adjust the story a little bit. I found a way to make it falsifiable.

[Craig]

Oh God. It's just maddening. It's maddening.

[Gordon]

But that's the point is that you can. Is that you, if you take that position like this. Greg. What's his name? McElroy.

[Craig]

Not Rory. Greg.

[George]

I love his analysis too on college football. I'm going to stop believing him now and tells me that whoever Indiana is the best team in the country, I'm going to go, I don't know about that. Well.

[Craig]

And I know what people are saying. Why are you. Why do you care about what a college football guy says about the space program? Yeah, because he's clearly not an expert in that field.

[Gordon]

And yes, I mean to me it doesn't bother me that he's a college football coach. It just, it bothers me that this has become so widespread that it becomes a thing that kind of infects us.

[Craig]

Right.

[Gordon]

You know, infects the culture. And now we've all just turned into everything's not true and everything's true at the same time and it just doesn't matter.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[George]

But yeah, someone like that can have an impact on people because they watch him every Saturday and he's really well spoken. I love the way he talks of college football and other thing. I think he's funny. This is such a left turn for him.

[Craig]

It's just very weird.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but if his reason breaks down when it comes to these type matters then why would you believe him with the college football stuff? Here's a guy who goes on gut feeling. He doesn't go on any kind of evidence or trends.

[George]

But he presents that every week. Of why he backs up his arguments in college football, much with evidence he doesn't. He's never mentioned microwave ovens when saying that, you know, Georgia's the best defense.

[Gordon]

Well, I mean, like football, let's say that he says that there's some college running back that's the best in college running back history. I'm going, yeah, but I don't know, way back then, he couldn't even take a step one in front of the other when he was a kid. So how am I going to believe that all of a sudden this guy's now rushing better than anybody else in college football?

[Craig]

All right? And then when you get outside the conspiracy theories about space, there's so much magical about it and so much I love about it and love consuming. And when I was a kid, two things really stood out to me. I started collecting stamps when I was probably fifth grade or something, sixth grade. And you were told to pick a genre. And I picked sports because I was a huge sports fan. And one of my best friends, Bill, he picked space and he collected space stamps. And we used to look at each other's collections. And as much as I love my sports stamp collection, I thought his space stamp collection was fascinating.

[Gordon]

I don't know, man.

[Craig]

And pictures of all of the, you know, from all the different countries who have attempted to put rockets in the air and go to the moon. And there are some really cool space stamps out there. So that got me really interested in. And then of course, watching Star Trek, which might be my all time favorite show, I was so into it that I went to a Star Trek convention when I was probably 12 years old.

[George]

Really?

[Gordon]

Wearing your homemade Spock ears?

[Craig]

Yes. Downtown Oklahoma City. And my mom would drop me off for those two days, Saturday and Sunday, and I'd walk in and it was great. I was surrounded by Trekkies and yes, I was wearing a Captain Kirk uniform with the badge. And one year I went, you know

[Gordon]

what you had in common? How old were you?

[Craig]

I was probably 10 or 12.

[Gordon]

You know what you had in common with every adult in that building?

[Craig]

We're all virgins.

[Gordon]

All virgins.

[George]

Yeah. And I mean, this is no offense, but I stopped watching Star Trek. I think when I was six. I was fascinated by it when I was like four, five and six. And then I just, I don't know, it just seemed dumb? No, not dumb. I just lost interest in it. There was no one particular thing. I just lost interest in it. I'm not saying it was in what the way you've explained it through the years. It's a very well done show. But I was just never into it. Battlestar Galactica never was Star Wars. I was, but almost think Gordo's. And he's like five years younger than us. I think y' all were much more into Star wars than we were. It's. It's the most spectacular movie I've ever seen for the first time. Yeah, it just changed everything.

[Gordon]

Yeah, it was a spectacle.

[George]

Yes. But I didn't, you know, whereas Star

[Gordon]

Trek seemed a little. Little low rent on the production scale.

[Craig]

Yeah, no, they were 10 years apart. Star Trek was late 60s, Star wars in the mid to late 70s. But I remember the first time I went to see Star wars and I saw it and I thought, okay, that was good. That was cool. But that's no Star Trek, really. I love the Enterprise, the look of the spaceship Enterprise much more than anything I saw in Star Wars. Just everything about Star Trek felt cooler to me.

[George]

That's interesting. Yeah. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.

[Craig]

And Star Trek was way more predictive of the future than any TV show ever.

[Gordon]

True.

[Craig]

And really any science fiction show certainly of the time. Star Trek predicted communicators, which are today's cell phones. You know, the flip phone that they used to talk to each other. On their pads are our smartphones of today, voice activated computers. They had that in Star Trek. The tricorder, you know, was a precursor to today's handheld medical diagnostic devices. Replicators. Today we have 3D printers, the holodecks where they used to go for recreation. Today we have VR bays, the universal translator that they had on the show where if they landed and didn't understand an alien's language, they hold out the translator. We have that today with Google Translate biometric identification. Just the automatic doors, the. That they walk through, that are commonplace today. Bluetooth headphones like Lieutenant Uhura wore, touch screens, video calls. They had Zoom 50 years before we had Zoom. It predicted the future.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but John.

[George]

Or maybe it generated ideas too.

[Craig]

Yes, it did too. Yeah.

[George]

I wonder if we could do something like that.

[Craig]

You're right.

[George]

Okay. R2D2, the robots now that deliver food kind of look like R2D2.

[Craig]

Yeah, true.

[George]

When I can come up with Star Wars.

[Gordon]

We didn't even cover UAPs.

[Craig]

Oh, that's right.

[Gordon]

You know what UAP stands for?

[George]

You aren't pregnant.

[Gordon]

What?

[Craig]

You aren't pregnant.

[Gordon]

You're an idiot.

[George]

No, I'm hilarious.

[Craig]

I like That I have Good news, Mrs. Smith. The UAP.

[George]

Oh, God.

[Craig]

Or bad news, depending on what you want.

[George]

What's UAP?

[Gordon]

I don't know.

[Craig]

It's the new UFO. It's unidentified UFOs to me.

[Gordon]

Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena.

[Craig]

That's right.

[Gordon]

And they changed this in December of 2022. It used to be unidentified Aerial phenomena, but they wanted to cover all of the. These Tic Tacs that you're called, you know, that these crafts that go under the water fly in and out of the water very rapidly. So they change it to just Unidentified Anomalous phenomena to cover submersed and transmedia craft.

[George]

And you think we're on the verge of a breakthrough in making contact.

[Gordon]

I just. Okay, here's my professional. Here's my conspiracy theory. People always say that I'm non conspiracy theorists or just anti conspiracy theorists. I'm not. There's some things that I. I am kind of conspiracy on. And I think that it's just a little strange the way that the government changed their tune on UFOs. You know, what we now call UAPs.

[George]

And you've noticed that's in like the last five years.

[Gordon]

In the last. Yeah, when. Whenever. The. Whenever the New York Times piece came out, that was a big watershed moment in the UAP discussion because you had the old gray lady that was talking about the old gray lady, meaning the New York times talking about UAPs and giving it some sort of credence rather than it being a laughingstock and marginalizing these people who had believed in UFOs. Now all of a sudden, we have our MO. The New York slimes, our most storied institution or one of them talking about it. And the government also. A lot of people in government saying. A lot of people saying, you know, hey, we need to study this, and this is interesting. And these incidents, the Commander Fravor incident and the Nimitz incident, all these things, there's something to them.

[George]

Casey Musgraves.

[Gordon]

And then, yeah, Casey Musgraves. Another one of our luminaries coming out and saying this. I just thought it was interesting, this change of tune that the government all of a sudden had on them. Instead of making fun of everyone, the government saw it as advantageous to say, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, this could be. This may be aliens. And this is real interesting. We need to be investigating this alien stuff. I mean, it'.

[George]

And they put out some more video too, that we had not seen before too. Right.

[Gordon]

Video that's getting out classified, some stuff. Right. And anytime that Happens, my little antenna goes up thinking, okay, if they're more comfortable with us believing this story, then what is the story that they want us to make sure we're not looking toward?

[George]

Okay.

[Gordon]

They want us to look away. Here's the distraction. Hey, we love this distraction. You're on. Yeah. This alien stuff. Yeah. We think that they may be like these little men from another planet that could be coming here and stuff. They don't want you to know that it's men from this planet that are doing stuff or that there are beings that are visiting us from perhaps our own. Our own planet, perhaps from a different time, a different dimension.

[Craig]

Steve, My official take on that is I've always believed in intelligent life form outside of this planet. I think it's incredibly egocentric to imagine that in this unbelievably vast universe that we can't even comprehend how big it is.

[Gordon]

Right.

[Craig]

That we are the only intelligent life form. I just find that ludicrous to imagine.

[Gordon]

But what would that intelligence look like? It would probably would not look like the bipedal larger head. You know, these humanoid type creatures would probably not be the evolutionary pinnacle in some other.

[Craig]

Right. Yes. Ecosystem that I don't think I or anybody has the answer for. But I imagine there's all sorts of different forms of intelligent life.

[Gordon]

But strangely enough, the ones that visited us were humanoids, legs and eyes and.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Gordon]

Why is that?

[Craig]

Because it was initially our creation.

[Gordon]

Yes.

[Craig]

Because we couldn't imagine anything other than intelligent life looking like us.

[Gordon]

But it's one thing to believe there's other intelligent life somewhere else in the universe. It's a different belief to think that they have visited us.

[Craig]

Right.

[Gordon]

Because that space travel, interstellar travel in particular, is just so forbidding and seems unnecessary. Why would they be visiting us? And why would they. And why would they send the idea that this shows the limit of our own imagination? This is where I think science fiction writers provide a very important service to culture, because I do think they think up ideas that engineers then take and bring into reality, from our imagineers to our engineers like Star Trek. Why would aliens send biological life form when biological biology traveling that far just is impossible?

[Craig]

Yeah, I think you just mentioned it. That I've always imagined them visiting us in another dimension. One that we can't comprehend, that they're

[Gordon]

here in some way unless they can fold space time. You know, that's Bob Lazar's. His position is that this. Create. This craft that he was seeing could bend space time. And that's how it's able to basically create a wormhole in space time and travel long distances in the blink of an eye because it's actually folding space time.

[Craig]

He's very convincing, by the way.

[Gordon]

I know.

[George]

Do you have hope that we get visited by someone who looks like Chewbacca?

[Gordon]

What? Why would I hope for that?

[George]

How did you nod? Wouldn't you want to be buddies with Chewbacca?

[Gordon]

I'd rather meet Jesus.

[Craig]

We don't have to bring up Chewbacca in every episode.

[George]

It's just like two in a row. But wouldn't you want to play golf with Chewbacca? Teach him how to play golf?

[Gordon]

Of all the things that all this magic and majesty could produce, playing golf with Chewbacca is not even on my list.

[George]

Okay. Well, I mean, my personal fantasy foursome is Jordan Spieth. Chewbacca. And he didn't have Dak Prescott.

[Craig]

Dak Prescott, yeah.

[George]

I think that'd be a great foursome. We'd have a good time.

[Craig]

You know why I ultimately believe, or want to believe that there is life out there somewhere, intelligent life. Because I think that makes life here on Earth much more fun. It's more enjoyable to me to go through life imagining what might be out there as opposed to just shutting down that possibility in that part of my brain and not having that daydream.

[George]

Yeah, I think that's a healthy way of looking at it. Unless there's evil out there, that it's going to destroy us.

[Gordon]

And I forget what percentage of planets. Pretty low. The percentage of planets that we think are actually in the Goldilocks Zone in their solar systems that could support life as we know it.

[Craig]

Right.

[Gordon]

On it. So there's definitely a. It's rare. I think that life is rare throughout the universe, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Craig]

That's key. Life as we know it. As we learn in Star Trek, they would go to planets that should not have had any living forms on there because their atmosphere would not be able to host it. But there were life forms there because they were different from us.

[Gordon]

So you think that there's a possibility there's life on the moon and that we have been in the presence of it, but we just can't detect it because it exists on a different sphere plane. Different.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think that's a possibility.

[Gordon]

Things that we consider inanimate. Yeah, like rocks are alive.

[Craig]

I guess it's a possibility on any planet or moon or anything out there. I've never thought about that on the moon, and I'm not sure I've thought about it on any of our other planets in this solar system, but way out there I imagine that that could be the case.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but I'm saying like the planets in our solar system would be the same inhospitable places towards life. But you're saying that you think that life as we know it doesn't exist there, but other life does, right? In our solar system even.

[Craig]

No, for whatever reason, I've never thought about other life in our solar system because I think, well, that's like our next door neighbor and we would have heard from them by now. Like they may look out the window and wave at us.

[Gordon]

Yeah, but.

[Craig]

Yeah, but I've always left open my mind to the possibility that there could be life on one of these planets. But I just always imagine it in another solar system or another galaxy somewhere way far away where they can't just open the window and say hi and borrow a cup of sugar.

[George]

Play 18 holes of golf.

[Gordon]

A sugar based diet. Yes. Like I do.

[Craig]

Okay, that's this week's edition of the Musers, the podcast Talking Space. Thanks for joining us. Thanks to our producer Peter Whelpton. Don't forget you can sample our entire back catalog. 38 back episodes. Now since this was number 39 for you to listen to, we hope you'll do that and we'll see you next time on the users the podcast

[George]

the Hammer alley podcast. An 80s flashback mockumentary.

[Gordon]

Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had at all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley?

[George]

How did they go from Top of the Rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987, Hammer Alley.

[Craig]

Ever heard of them?

[George]

To rock bottom.

[Gordon]

Dude, I was born in 1987.

[George]

Oh, I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.