Top 3 Breakup Mistakes and How to Overcome Them - Must-Watch!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Neuro Experience

Episode: Top 3 Breakup Mistakes and How to Overcome Them - Must-Watch!

Host: Louisa Nicola (on behalf of Pursuit Network)
Guest: Amy Chan (author of "Breakup Bootcamp")
Date: August 6, 2024

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode centers on the neuroscience and practical mechanics of breakups—why they hurt so much, how they affect the brain, and how to recover and grow from them. Louisa and renowned breakup expert Amy Chan dissect common breakup mistakes, relationship dynamics in the age of social media, “situationships,” attachment styles, and actionable steps to heal and thrive post-breakup. Amy draws on both scientific research and personal experience, offering insightful tools, stories, and compassionate advice for anyone navigating love and loss.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Neurology of Breakups

• Breakups mimic drug withdrawal:

  • When a deep relationship ends, the brain responds as if addicted to a drug—with symptoms of withdrawal, craving, and distress.
  • Amy Chan [03:09]:

    “They’ve done these studies where they put people who are newly separated in an fMRI… the part of the brain that was activated was the same part as a drug user craving their next fix. The drug of choice is really affection, attention, connection from your previous partner.”

• Neuroplasticity and Relationship Patterns:

  • Louisa compares love to “highways” in the brain, suggesting that repeated relational routines create well-trodden neural paths, making change challenging after a breakup.

• You can’t fast-forward the pain:

  • Processing, not avoiding, the hurt is essential. Trying to numb or skip grief leads to patterns repeating in future relationships.
  • Amy Chan [05:15]:

    “There is no click of a button and suddenly the pain is gone. That’s basically avoidance… Eventually the pain doesn’t disappear, it just rears its head later, in another relationship.”

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2. Relationship Types & "Situationships"

• Rise of breakups and evolving relationship styles:

  • Divorce rate is often cited as 50%, but it’s closer to 40%, with variations by demographic. This doesn’t account for “situationships”—noncommittal, label-less romantic entanglements that can end just as painfully as defined relationships.

• Why situationships hit hard:

  • The ambiguity and “possibility” make their abrupt end surprisingly traumatic.
  • Amy Chan [09:51]:

    “A situationship… is like going to Disneyland for the first time, being super excited, getting to go on two rides, and suddenly the park shuts down. That can make it really, really hard… You grieve that ending as if it was a long-term relationship.”

• Gender differences in situationship preference:

  • In Amy’s interviews, most women do not prefer situationships but may go along because the man does.

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3. Dating Mistakes & Early Relationships

• Listening to Intention and Capacity:

  • Early on, pay attention to actions, inactions, and words. Don’t assume someone will change or that you can change them.
  • Amy Chan [12:52]:

    “People are communicating to you their intentions, their capacity and their ability… We might want to hear something… but if they say they’re not ready for a relationship, believe them.”

• Don’t rush to judge or over-interview:

  • The first dates should focus on connection, not interrogations about life goals. Creating unnecessary pressure kills potential chemistry.
  • Amy Chan [13:44]:

    “The first few dates, it’s really just for, is there a connection here?... Even your questions can create judgment.”

• Dating vs. Relationship Skills:

  • Some people are great “daters” but not necessarily good at long-term relationships.

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4. Social Media’s Impact on Breakups

• Constant exposure to exes delays healing:
  • Unlike before, you now see your ex’s curated life online, which can prolong pain and encourage unhealthy comparison or ego games.
  • Amy Chan [19:58]:

    “Social media has caused a lot of issues… After a breakup, people are posing and making sure they have this perfect looking life because they are hoping their ex will see… it comes from a place of hurt.”

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5. Amy’s Personal Breakup Journey

• Origin of "Breakup Bootcamp":
  • Amy’s long-term relationship ended due to infidelity, leading to a personal crisis. The experience—including intense grief and even suicidal ideation—motivated her to create a structured healing process for others.
  • Amy Chan [20:59]:

    “It really was the band aid that ripped off, and I had to deal with all the wounds I never dealt with, starting from childhood… I have to create what didn’t exist for me.”

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6. The Seven Stages of Breakup Grief

• Stages (loosely inspired by Kubler-Ross):
  • Shock → Denial → Depression → Anger → Bargaining → Accountability → Acceptance
  • No strict timeline, but initial emotional intensity usually settles by 6-8 weeks.
  • Key to healing: Consistently remind yourself the relationship is over and avoid ongoing contact or rumination.
  • Amy Chan [26:01]:

    “When you’re in shock denial, it’s not the time to start psychoanalyzing your ex… It’s your time to process and continuously repeat: This relationship is over.”

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7. Breaking the Trauma Pattern & Creating Healing Routines

• Tools for Recovery:

  • Take care of basic needs despite feeling numb (eat, sleep, exercise, seek social support).
  • Use “flow state journal writing”—a ten-minute writing session starting with “I feel…” to process and reduce rumination.
  • Avoid maintaining contact with the ex, even if it seems harsh; space is critical to move from romantic to platonic, if that’s an eventual goal.

• Notice recurring emotional patterns:

  • Review your last three romantic connections, identify repeated emotional experiences, and reflect on your role in creating those cycles.

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8. Building Healthier Relationships & Evaluating Partners

• Three Lead Generation Strategies:

  • Don’t rely only on dating apps. Supplement with group activities/hobbies and mutual connections (“lead generation” for relationships).

• The Four Relationship Stages:

  • Prospecting: Meeting new people, casual vibe checks.
  • Discovery: Initial few dates, light and fun, no pressure.
  • Evaluation: Dates 3-20, assess character, reliability, and values alignment.
  • Commitment: Around three months in, decide on exclusivity or next steps.

  Amy Chan [43:03]:

  “Dating apps… are just a part of the process… I believe you should always have three sources of lead generation.”

• The “Shit Bucket” Theory:

  • Every partner brings about 20% of “shit” (annoying but tolerable traits). If it’s much higher, reconsider; if not, learn tolerance and flexibility.

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9. Conflict, Communication & Attachment Styles

• Fighting style and repair are crucial; growth comes not from having no conflict but from how you communicate and recover.

• Attachment Styles:

  • Secure (45-50%): Comfortable with intimacy and independence.
  • Avoidant: Values independence, distance in intimacy, emotional suppression.
  • Anxious: Fears abandonment, hypervigilant, seeks frequent reassurance.

  Amy Chan [55:07]:

  “By the age of around two years old, we develop an attachment system style which determines how we relate romantically as adults.”

• Attachment origins and adult expression:

  • Avoidant people have higher internal stress during rejection, even if they appear unaffected.
  • “Protest behavior” in anxious types can manifest as reaching out, or feigned indifference to mask distress.

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10. Modern Dating Landscape

• Gender Trends:

  • More women are exiting the dating pool or becoming breadwinners, leading to new challenges and shifts in relational expectations.
  • Men are reportedly struggling more with depression and connection.

• Healthy Relationship Opportunity:

  • Consider couples’ therapy or coaching proactively, even when things are going well.
  • “Heartbreak is a beautiful part of life and growth and birth and rebirth… If you’re going to put yourself out there, it’s a risk, but it’s also worth it.” [47:29]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You are not just waiting to be chosen, you are also the one doing the choosing.” – Amy Chan [15:10]

• On breakups as withdrawal:
  “You’re almost a drug addict in withdrawal, and the drug of choice is affection, attention, connection from your previous partner.” – Amy Chan [03:09]

• On the “shit bucket” theory:
  “In any relationship there’s going to be a bucket, and 20% is going to be shit… If you can’t have any tolerance, you probably cannot be in a long-term relationship.” – Amy Chan [51:14]

• On social media after breakups:
  “Your focus is still on kind of jabbing your ex, but, yeah, it’s still really hard to see.” – Amy Chan [19:58]

• On repeated dating patterns:
  “If there’s an emotional experience that continues to repeat, that is a pattern… How are you accountable for creating this emotional experience over and over again?” – Amy Chan [39:55]

• On healing:
  “You need to exercise, you need endorphins because you are in a deficit of feel-good chemicals. And you have to force yourself to eat… If you can’t get those basic things together, there is no way you could start repairing your heart.” – Amy Chan [35:36]

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• [03:09] – Brain science of breakups: withdrawal parallels
• [09:51] – Why situationships can devastate
• [13:44] – Dangers of going too hard/serious too soon in dating
• [19:58] – Social media’s impact on breakup recovery
• [20:59] – Amy’s personal story and the origin of Breakup Bootcamp
• [26:01] – The seven stages of breakup grief
• [35:36] – The very first steps to healing after a breakup
• [43:03] – Healthy strategies for dating in the modern world
• [50:58] – The “shit bucket” metric of relationship tolerance
• [55:07] – Overview of attachment styles and dating implications

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ACTIONABLE TAKEAWAYS

• Let yourself grieve: Don’t avoid the pain—move through the seven stages, maintain distance from your ex, and focus on self-care.
• Communicate early and often: Let actions and consistency inform your decisions, not just words or hope for change.
• Cultivate relationship skills: Tolerance, conflict repair, self-reflection, and willingness to grow together are essential.
• Be proactive, not reactive: Use therapy, journaling, and support networks before, during, and after relationships.

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Information on Amy Chan & Resources

• Book: Breakup Bootcamp: The Science of Rewiring Your Heart
• Website: amychan.com (see episode notes for links to upcoming bootcamps and resources)
• Upcoming events: Breakup Bootcamp in California (Fall 2024); online versions forthcoming
• Instagram: @missamychan

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This episode is a rich, honest, and practical deep dive into the neurobiology and skillsets required to survive—and grow from—breakup pain. It’s recommended listening for anyone suffering heartbreak, or simply wanting to build healthier relationships in today’s complex social landscape.

Transcript

[Amy Chan]

Social media has caused a lot of issues when it comes to dating and breakups.

[Host]

I have so much love for you. You're so incredible. We are not compatible but I wish you the best in life making sure.

[Amy Chan]

That they have this perfect looking life because they are hoping that their ex will see and it comes from a place of hurt right? Like my ego is hurt. So I'm going to play this ego game with you to hopefully hurt you.

[Host]

What's up with a situationship?

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[Host]

So Amy, I I've done a lot of research on you. Your. Your words have inspired me. I know that you know as a mid 30 year old I've been through my fair share of breakups, but what really resonated with me was how you associated breakups with neurology. And you. You mentioned that going through a breakup is comparable to maybe recovering from a drug addiction. So I'd love to understand what happens to someone, somebody neurologically when they go through an intense breakup. And I'm talking not just a maybe. You've been seeing someone for eight weeks. I'm talking like you've had a relationship where you thought this was the person for me, and then that has ended. What happens in the. That person's brain? Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

So a lot of people feel like they're going crazy after the breakup, and they don't feel like they are themselves. And understanding what's happening in the brain can be helpful. They've done these studies where they put people who are newly separated in an FMRI machine. And they saw that the part of the brain that was activated was the same part of the brain as a drug user feeding for their next fix. So that's where this whole. The connection between. You're almost a drug addict in withdrawal, and the drug of choice is really affection, attention, connection from your previous partner. And even though logically you're like, okay, we're broken up. It takes time for your brain to re pattern itself. Essentially, this was your person. You went for connection, for friendship, for safety. You're getting dopamine, you're getting oxytocin. Suddenly it's gone. It is extremely jarring and shocking to your entire body and nervous system. And that's why you feel like you're going through primal panic.

[Host]

And I love. So when you talk about these neural patterns, and it's very much my field, we talk about neuroplasticity. Right. So your brain obviously rewires itself in response to experiences. And I, I kind of. I. I relate this to a connected highway, if you will. Have you seen that highway in. In Dubai? You look down there, just in Dubai, there's all. They're going. All different patterns. It's like. It's the same as your brain. So the longer you go down a certain pathway, the more it rewires and it gets stuck. And that's what it's like with a relationship. You wake up with that person. It's. It's comforting. And you release all of these neurochemicals which you talk about, which we'll get into. It seems to me when you talk about this that we then have the ability then to become almost robotic, if you will. If it's like, well, if it's just about rewiring your brain, then can't you just get out of a relationship and rewire it?

[Amy Chan]

Right. Well, there's definitely things that you can do to help that process. But there is no click of a button and suddenly the pain is gone. That's basically avoidance and distracting yourself. And there's research that shows that by avoiding eventually the pain doesn't just disappear. The patterns definitely don't disappear. It just rears its head either sometime down the road or in another relationship. So you have to deal with it. You have to process. And especially in the beginning parts when if you are the one who's been broken up with, you have to understand like you are in a state of shock and denial. Whereas the person who did the breaking up, they likely had time to process and they thought about it. They have maybe been even thinking about how to have that conversation so it's not fresh for them.

[Host]

So selfish.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, it's hard because if you see your ex and you're like, why are they living their best lives? It looks like they're unaffected. Whereas I'm in fetal position. I can't stop crying. Well, they had a big head start than you.

[Host]

Oh, actually we go, I want to get into that, that fetal position and we'll get into. You talk about the seven stages of grief as well.

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[Host]

Want to know why you've chosen to write a book dedicated to breakups. Because so many people write books about know how to have a healthy relationship and how to have, how to thrive and understand your partner. But you're like, no, let's, let's instigate a movement around the breakup code, I guess. Are we, is, are we seeing like a rise in breakups? Like what's the, what's the percentage of divorce now?

[Amy Chan]

It's mixed. So there's this, this percentage that's thrown around that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. But if you actually look at depends on what part of the population, so people who are more highly educated, higher income, the levels of divorce is actually a little bit less. So it isn't a blanket 50% but it's still pretty high. People. I think it's around 40 ish percent of relationships end up in divorce. And that doesn't count all of the situationships, those relationships that didn't have a title, which still hit really hard.

[Host]

Yeah. Why, what's up with that? What's up with a situationship?

[Amy Chan]

Okay, so I look at it like if you're going to go to Disneyland, okay, so say you've been in a relationship for 10 years and you know your partner's habits, they're reliable, you know what you're doing for the weekend, that's like going to Disneyland. You've been on every ride, it's 12 hours later, you're like, I'm so tired, like there's nothing new here. Get me home. Then if you look at a situationship where there's so much possibility you have all these things you want to experience, that's like you going to Disneyland for the first time, being super excited, getting to go on Two rides and suddenly the park shuts down. So all of this future possibility gone. And you are on a peak of excitement and intensity gone. And what can happen is that person who's been in this short term relationship or on again, off again thing, it's been so intense, these ups and downs and you cut it at the peak of possibility. And that can make it really, really hard for someone and they grieve that ending as if it was a long term relationship.

[Host]

So is a situationship kind of like dating, if you will, A situationship is.

[Amy Chan]

This blurry gray area between dating and, and relationship. You're hooking up, there's no responsibility, there's no commitment, there's no labels. And there isn't like one massive research study on this. But I have interviewed people and I'd say that out of the people I've interviewed, about 90% of the women do not prefer the situationship. But they will do it and try to be chill about it because the guy wanted it. And the guys typically are a little bit more like, yeah, cool, like I'm totally fine doing the situationship thing. No, went off my back.

[Host]

Yeah, I see how that can happen. Because you get into something with somebody, you're scared to tell them, where are we? What is this? What is our label? You don't want to slap a label on it, but you also, I guess, you know, you want to stay in it and you're scared. But then you put so much in your head and then it is taken away from you and so you end up going through a breakup, which is not a breakup. And then you probably punish yourself thinking, how did I get so involved and attached to someone that was not, didn't have the label of a relationship?

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, because you're doing the same things as you would be doing in a relationship. You're Netflix and chilling there. Your body can't tell. Like it's still like secreting dopamine when you have an orgasm. Like you're getting oxytocin every time you're hugging. Like so your body's like, yeah, we're, we're in this thing together. It doesn't understand that you're in this like Gen Z term of situationship.

[Host]

So then what would be your recommendations for, I guess when you first meet someone, somebody, and this is 2024 and I'm not talking, I'm talking, maybe you're in your 30s and maybe you're looking for a long term partner. What is some of the signs to look out for to make sure that you don't get into a situationship.

[Amy Chan]

People are communicating to you their intentions, their capacity and their ability in the ways that they are acting, the ways they are not acting so they're in action and what they are saying. And a lot of the times we might want to hear something or believe something, so we don't look at, well, they said they're not ready for a relationship. And then you might go, I mean, this was me. Oh, you're not ready for a relationship right now. But if I stick around and show how cool and laid back I am, like, you'll change your mind. You're gonna want this. And every single time I've done that, it hasn't worked.

[Host]

Ends in complete and utter destruction. Yeah. So it's about. Okay, so it's about being on the same path then.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. I think that your first couple of dates, I don't think you need to get into, like, do you want children? Do you want to move to Bali together? Like, do you want. I don't think you need to get into that. I think people make a mistake with, well, I have no time, or, you know, my clock is ticking, or I want this. They have this plan and timeline in their head and they make that first date filled with pressure. And when you are judging someone to see if they're going to be your person or your soulmate, even your questions end up being a way that can create judgment. You're like, oh, that's your future ambition. Okay, you're in that bucket. Ooh, you want a house in the Hamptons? Okay, you're in that bucket. I'll pedestal you a little bit. So the first few dates, it's really just for, is there a connection here? And then there's an evaluation stage that happens, I'd say around dates two to about 20, where you are seeing this person through experience because they might say, oh, I want all these things, or I'm a high integrity person. But you can start telling by date seven. Like, actually, they don't really respond to messages. They don't say what, they don't follow through with what they say. And then you can extract that data versus just what they are saying.

[Host]

How about the situation where you don't even end up dating, you just get straight into a relationship and you skip the dating part. And then you're in this two month relationship. You're like, whoa, whoa.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. And that happens a lot. And I really feel that when we are in a scarcity mindset, and I know it's really hard, the dating pool is Hard. But if you've been single for a while, maybe you really want a relationship. Someone comes along and they meet just enough, you know, boxes. You're like, you know, who cares? Like, someone's choosing me, I'm in it. And I think it's something so important to remind yourself you are not just waiting to be chosen, you are also the one doing the choosing. And it is impossible to know someone's character after a couple of dates, especially because in the very beginning, people can be really great at dating, especially people. And we'll talk about attachment style who veer more avoidantly attached. They are great at the courtship, but they might not necessarily have the skills to be great in a relationship. They are very different things.

[Host]

So somebody is different. They could be a great data and a great friend, but completely different in a relationship. What's the difference?

[Amy Chan]

Well, I think that there's some people, the ones that are swiped on all the time in the apps, who get approached at the bars, right? They're usually very attractive, they're charismatic. Some of them are higher on the narcissism scale. They can present really well on dates, right? They're fun. Especially the novelty seekers. They're adventurous. They're gonna take you away. It's spontaneous and you can't get help. You can't help but be like, wow, this is so exciting. I want this person. And like, if you look down the road, people who tend to be really high novelty seeking, there's a correlation of higher rates of infidelity. So there's trade offs. And you just don't know how that person is going to be until you see, see them. How are they with the wait staff? Do they show up? How are you when you have your first conflict together? Do they just disappear? And only experience will let you know that.

[Host]

I think one thing that I've learned throughout my time is the way we communicate, if you will, during an argument. Okay. Is really important as well because we have to know, how are we, like, where are we going wrong here and how can we rectify this? And I think there's, you know, for me it's, it's been, it's been challenging because I'm the sort of person who's like, what is it? Let's fight it out just so we can just go to sleep and wake up and tomorrow's a brand new day. But there's other people who are like, no, I'm gonna sit on this for a week and then I'll get back to you. Once I tell you my feelings and like, that's. That's a big I. It's not. Am I the red flag? Are you the red flag? I'm not sure. We're just two different people in that instance.

[Amy Chan]

I think it's a very common pairing to find couples where one partner is more. Let's hash it out. Let's talk about it right now. And then the other person who might shut down a little and need a lot more time to process and get their nervous system back to a grounded place so that they can have an adult conversation. It is a normal pairing. So I don't think you just stay away from everyone that doesn't have the same fighting style, but what you want to look for is, is this person invested in building and growing. So in the beginning, yeah, you're going to have conflict. You're not going to be able to be perfect in it. But then you start to develop, like, oh, okay, I noticed that you get flooded. So why don't we do this? If you need time to process, just let me know you're going to come back in an hour versus just slamming the door and leaving. Right. You make these adjustments, and they have to be willing and both of you have to be willing to negotiate and collaborate. And if they don't, I think that's more the sign that someone is not invested in and someone isn't interested in looking at themselves. And to grow.

[Host]

Yeah, you have to be. You really have to be invested in it. You know, I have a hard time. I see my parents who are happily married, and, you know, they've. They were. I wouldn't say an arranged marriage, if you will. I'm Greek. But they were matched up and they met, and six months later they were married. And it's been a very successful marriage. They both the same religion, same culture. I guess families knew each other. I think to myself, wow. But these days, it's like, there's a. There's a funny meme, a real. On Instagram that I think is just so. It really. It's just so funny. It's this girl who is. It says, you know, I spend like three days looking at the different colored nails that I want to get before she gets a manicure. And then she goes, comparable to how I pick men. And it's just like, okay, I'll just. Yeah, you'll do. It's so. It's like I spend more time picking my nail polish than what I do mention. And do you think that social media has played a role in how we find and choose a mate? And how we break up as opposed to 20 years ago.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. I think social media has caused a lot of issues when it comes to dating and breakups. Before, if you had a breakup, you don't really see them unless you're going to the same restaurant or the same places. And now you have to see them all over the place. And I know a lot of people after a breakup, they're like, posing and making sure that they have this perfect looking life because they are hoping that their ex will see. And it comes from a place of hurt. Right. Like, my ego is hurt. So I'm gonna play this ego game with you to hopefully hurt you. And it doesn't work because your focus is still on kind of jabbing your ex. But, yeah, it's still really hard to see.

[Host]

You wrote Breakup bootcamp, The science of rewiring your heart. I love the word rewiring. Rewiring. Why did you write this? I'm guessing you've gone through either a major breakup or several breakups throughout your lifetime.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, there was one big one. I've struggled with relationships and love the entirety of my life, except for now. And I was on track to living happily forever after. So I thought I was dating a guy. We discussed, you know, one day we would get married. He had a business, so he would bring the money. I would stay at home. And I was just training myself to be the perfect CEO's girlfriend. I would pack lunches, and that relationship fell apart due to infidelity. And I put so much of my identity and my future in him and us that without that relationship, I completely fell apart. And during the time, I just blamed everything on him. But it really was the band aid that ripped off, and I had to deal with all of the wounds I never dealt with, starting from childhood. And it was really dark. Like, I had suicidal ideation. It was just really, really dark. And when I climbed out of that, and it took a long time, I asked myself, what happens to the people who. Who don't know what books to read, who don't have a therapist, who don't have friends who will let them stay on their couch? Like, what happens to them? And I knew I was this close to doing something so destructive. And I'm like, I have to create what didn't exist for me. And that's how my first Breakup Bootcamp was born. A retreat. I've been doing it for seven years now. I bring in 10 experts, from psychologists to even a dominatrix. And we help people after breakup or divorce just heal this Massive grief.

[Host]

What were some of the things that got you through and how long did it take you?

[Amy Chan]

I would say the intensity of I can't eat, I can't sleep was a little over a month and a half. And then I would make a, you know, make some progress, and then some thing would trigger me, a photo event that I couldn't go to because I knew they were going to be there. And I would again say spiral and be like, oh, my gosh, did any of the work, any of the healing help? Because I felt like the same intensity of crying in fetal position. And I would say, you know, it took two and a half years overall to truly get to a place of emotional charge, neutral. Because even though I was over him, I was still resentful and I was still in this narrative. Like, well, he did this to me. And that vilifying of my ex for so long, I didn't know this, but it was my, you know, subconscious way of holding on to the last part of the relationship that I had left. The pain.

[Host]

Yeah. And I kind of feel as though there's always lingering. Unless you cut it off at the source. We've broken up. I'm going to delete you on all platforms and you're blocked. I'm going to delete your number. I don't know if it has to be that aggressive. I mean, do you think for the. The safety of your. And the health of your brain, it has to be a complete cutoff?

[Amy Chan]

I think it's useful if you cut it off. Also, blocking their number can be helpful. So you're not wondering, are they going to message me? Are they not going to message you? And I know a lot of people can't, though, because they have shared dogs and children. The key is to keep any interactions emotionally neutral. You don't want to go to them to share good news. You don't want to go to them and pick a fight because the emotional charge keeps you hooked.

[Host]

Mm. So you went through, you know, a month and a half. I can't eat. I can't sleep. Did you start seeking out resources such as a therapist maybe in month two because you thought I. Something has to change?

[Amy Chan]

No, I was still just relying on friends. My friends were coming over in. In, like, a schedule to witness me eat because I lost. I lost, like, 15 pounds. It was really bad.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. I didn't get into therapy until, like, maybe a year after.

[Host]

Okay, so that kind of sounds like what you go through when you experience a death. And I want to talk about this because I know that you outline the seven stages of grief. Do you really think that a breakup is. I mean, I do believe it is. Do you really think a breakup can be like that? Depending on the intensity of it.

[Amy Chan]

I do feel like it's a. It's a death. It's a death of. Yeah, the relationship, the friendship, a part of your identity, your future. You're grieving so many things all at one time. And the possibility that maybe they'll come back or maybe if. If I just did this a little differently. Like, there's this open door, and I think that's what causes so much additional grief. Is this wondering of the what if? Or the I should have done this? And that can really just add more, I think, fuel to the fire.

[Host]

Okay, can we talk about those seven stages?

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. Yeah. So the seven stages is inspired by Elisabeth Kubler Ross stages. It's anecdotal. It's not. So, like, I just wanna make sure people know that the. The information isn't like, scientific, but there's shock, which is a very first stage. And this is when you just get the news and your body is like, in a state of. You're numb. You're like, what? What's going on? You're completely confused. And then it goes into denial. Denial's like, well, maybe it's not gonna end. Like, well, we'll just do this. We'll fix it.

[Host]

How long does each stage go for?

[Amy Chan]

There's no timeline, really. There is some research that six to eight weeks is when the emotional intensity when you're at equilibrium on a chemical level is totally off. It starts to settle. So six to eight weeks is around that, but not for each stage. But what you would do in each stage, I'd say is very different. So when you're in shock denial, it's not the time to start cycle analyzing your ex and their attachment style. It's really your time to process and to continue continuously repeat. This relationship is over. This person is no longer available to me. Because that's what your brain is having a hard time. It's having these prediction errors and it's like, what the heck? What the heck? But if you are going down memory lane and like, looking at their photos or messaging with them, you can't process that the relationship is over. So you can stay in denial for a long time. I have clients who have been in denial and I swear it's been years.

[Host]

Years? Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

They've stayed friends without a break in between, and they're like, no, no, it's totally fine. I'm like, you have no space in your heart for anyone else. And then when you finally realize, okay, this is over, a lot of people go into depression. It's situational depression. So it's because of the situation. You come out of it, and it's just really sad. And this is fetal position crying. You don't want to get out of bed. You don't want to eat. And then some people move into the anger stage where they're like, wait a minute. You start knocking your ex off the pedestal. So this is actually a positive sign because it can launch you out of depression and help you take action. Like, this is what I need to do to change. These are the boundaries I need to enforce. And then after that is a stage of. Sometimes people have bargaining, which is very similar to denial. We're like, well, we can just hook up. That's fine. Right? Sometimes people go back in this quite a few times. And then I'd say it's accountability, where you start looking at, okay, sure, my ex did all these things, but this is the part I'm accountable for. These are the lessons how I'm gonna grow, and then to acceptance. You could hop around. You might miss one of the stages. It's not linear.

[Host]

Yeah. And I guess it's scary to go through all of those. So I. In your time with these breakup boot camps, and I'd love, you know, if you could share any anonymous stories, but I guess this is when a lot of people turn to maybe alcohol and. And drugs just to try and, like, mask that pain and grief of. And as you get older, there's a lot more attached to it as well. I remember it was different in my early 20s, but, like, older. You're like, okay, there's so much more attached to it because that means that my next person has to be my next person. But I don't know if I'm going to find anyone. I've only got a few years. Let's just hold onto this, and let's just keep repeating that cycle. And it's like, oh, my God, the cycle has ended. I've got nothing to do, so let's just drink myself into oblivion.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. Because that's a way of dealing with the pain and the withdrawal. That is so hard. And I truly believe if you learn the tools and you create your toolkit, some might work, some might not. But you're like, okay, here's my system. And you stick to it. You can. It's not that the pain will just go away, but I think the duration of it can be shortened and you can process through it, grow from it, and even be better for your next relationship. But pushing it away, it's just procrastinating pain.

[Host]

Are there any stories that you have from one of the. I mean, you probably get men and women.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

This is not just subjected to females. Actually, you shared a statistic earlier about, you know, you're scared. You actually said this to me off, offline. I was meant to attend one of your workshops on the weekend. We're currently recording this in Los Angeles. And Amy had a workshop with my friend Liz Hernandez. And I asked you how it was and you said, you know, I'm scared. What are you scared of?

[Amy Chan]

The dating market is really, really hard right now for everyone. And I've never seen it like this. I'm seeing, I haven't really talked about this, but I'm seeing a lot more women who are, they have been doing the work and going to therapy, learning about themselves and they're having a hard time with the dating pool. So. And I'm getting a lot of men, the men that come to break up boot camp or dating boot camp, like, they, there's a growth oriented mindset. Right. Those guys, like a lot of the women after the boot camp, like, are into them. They sometimes they turn into couples. But what you're seeing, if you look at an overall trend level, men are really struggling. Higher rates of depression, suicide. They're skyrocketing. Women, though, a lot of them are actually exiting the dating pool. They're like, I can't find someone who meets my at least emotional needs. I don't even need you to pay for anything. Just my emotional needs. I can't find that. I would rather invest in myself and my community. And guess what? Their happiness levels are pretty much the same.

[Host]

You compared this to more women are getting educated and going through college and getting degrees. And then I, you said something that, I didn't know this. You said that the, even the pay gap is shortening.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, the pay gap is shortening, which is incredible. Right? A lot of these things that we have done, even on a systems level to help women be able to go into schools and get education, to increase their wages. So it's even they've been working. And that's amazing. And that's why we have all these women who are graduating college and at a much faster speed than the men are. If I look at my friends like I'm going out for dinner, I'm like, oh, okay, 70% of us are the breadwinner. Okay, cool. That's very different than where it was.

[Host]

10 years ago of women are the breadwinner.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. Well, this is not a cross, but I. I don't know. Like, I know in my peer groups.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

This is the case.

[Host]

That's unbelievable. Okay. I think, because you always hear of maybe that might make. Make a man feel inferior.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Which can definitely get in the way. That's so interesting. Okay, so let's talk about breakup boot camp. What do we have to do to recover in a healthy way if we have gone through an extreme breakup? I keep saying the word extreme, but I guess they're all. They've all got levels. But, I mean, I do think about the differences in two people who come together coherently, maturely, and say, you know what? I have so much love for you. You're incredible. I don't know if this exists, by the way. You're so incredible. We are not compatible, but I wish you the best in life.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Wouldn't it be amazing? Like, that's my.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, it's not my dream, but, I mean, that's. I hope I don't ever have to get into that position, but it would be a really nice way to end something.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

That doesn't happen, though, usually. Usually it's one person who's making the decision. Not all cases, or maybe both people were thinking about it, but then one person finally had the courage to take action. It is really hard to leave something, especially when it's not bad. And I think that there's this kind of, like, mediocrity purgatory that people stay in because they're like, this relationship's not great. It's not even good, but it's not terrible. Right. They're not abusive. They're not terrible to me. And then there's like, well, if I go back into the dating market at this age or in my city, you're like, oh, I don't want to do that, so I'm just gonna stay here and I won't do anything. And they do. And sometimes, like, I've had people say it's almost. It would be easier if they did something bad, because then it's like, yes, it's a no. But when it's like, I don't know, you just stay there. You stay complacent.

[Host]

Yeah. I think I've been in situations where the person has been such an amazing. Like, you're so nice, you're so caring, but there you're crossing the line. Like, I feel as though I'M not living up to, you know, because of you, I am. Maybe I'm sleeping, you know, taking away the things that mean a lot to me. You know, maybe I'm drinking a bit more. Maybe we're partying a bit too much. And maybe I'm not exercising anymore. I'm lacking work, like. And so that makes it as well hard because it's like, you're not a bad person. It's just me.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

And so. Okay, so then what do we have to do? Let's just say I've gone through a really terrible breakup and it happened. I don't know. Let's just say, okay, great, we've ended it. This was a week ago. I'm in the fetal position. What do I do?

[Amy Chan]

In this stage, your body is going to tell you that you should stay at home and isolate yourself. You will have no appetite because you are in a fight flight freeze response. And so the blood flow is going to actually go to the major muscle groups of your body and your appetite becomes a last priority. You're not going to want to move your body. You need to fight against these natural urges and you have to be around people where you feel safe and supported with their nervous system will entrain yours and help you get more centered. You need to exercise, you need endorphins because you are in a deficit of feel good chemicals. And, and you have to force yourself to eat. I don't care if you down a green smoothie. That's what I had to do. But if you can't get those basic things together, there is no way you could start repairing your heart.

[Host]

Okay, so that's step number one. We have to eat, drink, we have to act like a human.

[Amy Chan]

Yes, exactly.

[Host]

That's what step number one is.

[Amy Chan]

I'd say step number two is this is your time to process your feelings, to feel it all. And the way that you're going to do this is you talk to friends. You can tell your friends how to best support you. So during this time, you do not want people to be like it happened for a reason. You don't want people to bash your ex. That's not gonna be helpful at all because you'll still be protective over your ex even if they did something terrible. So you're gonna actually feel really bad if people start saying bad things about them. You don't want advice. This is not the time. This is your time to be able to talk about it. Talk about it, talk about it and find those people who are willing to hold space for You. A really great hack for you at this time is to do flow state journal writing. So put your a timer on for about 10 minutes. Put your pen to paper. You cannot take your pen off until the timer goes off and you start with the prompt I feel and you just write. And you'll find that suddenly you'll go like, oh, and then the trees are green and I should eat a donut. Just keep writing. What this does is it's almost like debugging the mind and it allows all the this stuff that's floating around in your psyche to come out on paper and it tells your mind like, oh, I've dealt with this. So it can help you decrease your rumination later on because you're like, oh, I already dealt with this right now. So at 2pm 5pm I don't have to think about it again.

[Host]

Wow. I mean, if I looked back on a journal in that stage, it would read like some sort of horror. Yeah, a horror novel. Okay. And then what do we do after that?

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. And that this stage is going to take some time. And I know people are like, well, how long is it? But like, yeah, as I mentioned, around six to eight weeks. There's been some studies that show that's what, how the intensity kind of hits a peak and then it can start to subside. But if you're still communicating with your ex, if you're still hooking up with your ex, your body doesn't get the memo that you guys are broken up.

[Host]

Yeah, it's hard because you're like, how do I. Because I know that in the future we could possibly be friends. And I don't want to get rid of something that has been in my life for five years, 10 years, whatever. And it's, it's hard to come to terms with for sure.

[Amy Chan]

And if there's any, any possibility of you becoming friends or maybe coming back together again in the future as new people to create a new relationship, it will not happen if you do not have space in between to allow that dynamic to move from intimate to platonic. There's just no way. It's way too confusing. And a lot of the times the person doing the breaking up will want to stay friends because one, it helps them not feel guilt, two, it gives them the emotional connection without any responsibility. So don't be a sucker and continue being your friend and being that person that you chat together and share good news or talk about stressors because you're just going to keep staying bonded while they've already decided that it's over.

[Host]

I think to myself about repeated patterns. I'm sure you've seen this often. Does that mean that we didn't learn and take the time to learn about our past mistakes? Like, have you seen people who just. They end a relationship, maybe they've gone through all of this and then they end up back into a relationship where they've chosen the exact same person?

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, I would say so. A lot of the times people are like, well, I don't have a type, and I have them do an exercise. And listeners can do this too. Look at the last three people you dated. Write it down on a piece of paper. Write down the five main emotions you felt with each person, and then circle to see if there's anything common. And most of the time, people see there's an emotion or two that continue to appear. Appear. So the emotional experience is the same. They might look different. The jobs might be different. That's not the type I'm talking about. If there's an emotional experience that continues to repeat, that is a pattern that you might want to look at and see. How are you accountable for creating this emotional experience over and over again?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Isn't it as simple as. Because you talk about the science, I'm a very logical thinker. If it's like, okay, this is who I am. This is what I'm looking for. This is what I want, isn't it so much easier just to go out and be like, who are you? What do you want? Do you want the same things as me? Can we come together and create something?

[Amy Chan]

I think, yeah. Having clear communication is an incredible sign. And I think that it's important to not get too caught up in what you think you want. I would say when I'm working with single people looking to create a healthy relationship, a lot of them have a list and they have rules as well. And I know for me, I had a rule when I lived in New York that I don't date finance guys. I just had.

[Host]

You heard that song, I'm looking for a man in finance.

[Amy Chan]

That's the opposite. I just had this rule. And I remember telling my friends, I was like, hey, everyone, like, I'm ready for a relationship really now. And I asked one of my friends, Vishal, do you know anyone? He's like, actually, I know a guy that I think could be a really great fit for you. And he shows me a photo, and I look at the photo and in my head I'm like, oh, no, that's a finance guy. I'm like, no, it's okay. And I said no. And a year later, I match with that guy. It was not that photo. And he's now my boyfriend for five years. Oh, and he shares with me now. It's so funny. That photo that my friend showed me was a day of him skiing for the first time, falling on his ass on the bunny hill over and over again. And he was just sitting down, exhausted. And I looked at that, I was like, oh, no, that's a cocky finance guy. Yeah, right. Like the thing. And I'm a relationship expert, so a lot of times we get in our own way because we were like, no, I know. I want this, I need this, and you don't.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Host]

So, okay, Realizing that. Okay, let's shift away from breakups.

[Amy Chan]

Okay.

[Host]

And let's talk about cultivating healthy relationships. How do we go about that when we're first starting out? And by the way, how do you feel about dating apps as opposed to meeting people, I guess, in person or through friends?

[Amy Chan]

The reality is a lot of people are coupling up from dating apps, and that percentage is getting higher and higher. It's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. And for those listening, like, well, I don't like dating apps. No one does. None of us like it.

[Host]

Okay.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, it's just a part of the process. It's just like, you want to go to Bali, then. Yeah, you're gonna have to fly 15 hours, go through customs. Like, no one likes that, but you do it to get to Bali. So I believe that you should always have three sources of lead generation.

[Host]

Oh, I love lead generation. Yeah, I love that.

[Amy Chan]

So dating apps, you're on it. Great. That's one. You need two more. Maybe that is finding a meetup group over a shared an activity that you love. Maybe it's running. Maybe you believe in Kabbalah, so you go to the Kabbalah center, like. Like whatever that thing is. You'll meet like minded people. It won't be a waste of time because it's around something you enjoy doing. The third could be asking friends, like, hey, do you know anyone cool that you think I would connect with?

[Host]

Okay, so then we meet somebody and then let's just say we go out very casually. Maybe it's a meet up, maybe it's a run. Dates are so different. You know, it can be dinner, whatever that might be. I have a friend actually, and she's looking for the one and she, like, she's like, it's. She's treating it as if. And she's In New York. She's treating it as if it's a job. And she's got a. I think she's on all of these. She's on the apps that I don't even know about. Like, these apps where it's like a. It's like an 80 subscription. I'm like, girl.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

And.

[Host]

And she treats her first date, like, extremely seriously. She's like, do you want kids? How. What is your religion? Like, it's very. And I'm like, okay, maybe that's great, but I don't really know, like, what are we supposed to be doing? First date, Is it just meant to be fun?

[Amy Chan]

I'm assuming it hasn't worked for her or her strategy.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

She's single.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. That is not what I recommend. Your first date, if you have job interview energy, it's a total buzzkill. What could have been a spark to a flame to a fire, you've eliminated it. And when we have a plan or we have a timeline, or we're in scarcity, or we're like, I don't have a lot of time. Like, are we a thing or not? It's not sexy. It's a turn off. So I know a lot of people don't want to hear that, but your first date is for you to just a vibe check. Is there a connection? You don't even need to know what type of connection it is, because sometimes the brain takes some time to process what bucket that connection is. Is it more friendly? Is it romantic? There's something called the mere exposure effect, which explains that the more we're exposed to something, whether it's food, music, or a potential romantic partner, it can amplify the feelings and the feelings of liking. And you might like someone through time because you see them through character. They might not be presenting as a bright, shiny object on the first date. Maybe they're shy, maybe they're introverted, but they might be someone who could be great at being a partner. So first date with. Ask yourself two questions. Am I having fun? Do I want to see them again? If it's. If it's a yes, there's been dopamine. Go again.

[Host]

Okay, great. And then as we move into it, let's just say we've done a few.

[Amy Chan]

Dates, then you enter the evaluation stage.

[Host]

Okay, so this. What's the first stage called?

[Amy Chan]

It's called. Sorry. The first stage is prospecting.

[Host]

Oh, I love that. It's like sales.

[Amy Chan]

I know.

[Host]

It's like real estate. Okay. Prospecting stage two. Evaluation.

[Amy Chan]

No, stage two is discovery. That States one to two.

[Host]

Okay.

[Amy Chan]

And the reason why I've broken it out into different stages, because the different stages require different strategy.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

So like I mentioned discovery. You're not asking like, so how many kids do you want? Like, you're not doing those things. You're just again, trying to see if there's a connection. If there is, and you enter evaluation. This is dates. Three to say about 20.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Amy Chan]

20 days. It depends on like, how intense your dates, how long your dates, all of those things. But you are getting a sense of their character, their integrity. Do they. Do they have a values alignment? Is there an alignment in your vision?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Chan]

And vision for the future and my life.

[Host]

And like, for example. Sorry to cut you off. I had a friend who, she actually got married, one of my really close friends. And first year of marriage, her husband said, I've changed my mind. I don't want kids. Yeah, I've changed my mind. And so that ended in divorce because she. That was her. Her life. She's like, I want kids. And I thought that was pretty shitty.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. And that's the unfortunate. There's no guarantees in our relationships. You can even meet someone, have a great relationship for 10 years and something happens. Right. Like, there just isn't any guarantees. We can. We can't protect ourselves from heartbreak. Heartbreak is actually a beautiful part of life and growth and birth and rebirth. And so, yeah, if you're gonna put yourself out there, it's a risk, but it's also worth it.

[Host]

So we're at the evaluation stage. We're evaluating values and goals in life.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. And this is when those questions come out, where you're seeing them not just in what they're saying, but in how they are acting and how, again, like the. Any inactions. Right. Maybe they say like, yeah, I want a partner. I want to have a family. And I'm like, super high integrity. I really believe in honesty. But then you're like, oh, wait, they just kind of lied about that. And they said they were going to be here at five, they came at six. And those little things are data points.

[Host]

Yeah. What do you feel about that? If somebody is. You're like, hey, I really want you to meet my friends. And we're having dinner. Dinner is at 8:30. And maybe they rock up to dinner at 9:30.

[Amy Chan]

I think that is problematic. I don't think that it is. Oh my God, like, you're cut out. But if that happens, what you would do is like, that's a conflict. So you would have a conversation, be like, hey, Just so you know, this was the first, the first time meeting my friends and I was really excited about that. When you showed up late, it made me feel like you, you didn't really take it seriously. And I was actually really sad about that. You see how they respond. Amazing opportunity to get a data point to see if you want to choose them.

[Host]

Okay, evaluation. So what's the next stage? After evaluation?

[Amy Chan]

After evaluation. And I would, I was speaking to Dr. Ty Toshiro about this. Like, when should you know if you want to, you know, deepen the relationship? And he does a lot of couples therapy. He's like three months on average. Three months. You should know enough about this person. If I want to increase the level of commitment and that might mean, okay, we are putting a label on it that might mean like, we are sexually monogamous, whatever that is for you, because we're all different in different stages. There is an increase in the level of commitment and investment in the relationship.

[Host]

Okay. And if you notice things that are just not in alignment. Have you seen people that are just too scared to walk away?

[Amy Chan]

So you need to know where you are on the spectrum. There are people who have no standards and they're just like, oh my God, someone likes me, I'm in. And they don't walk away. And then there's people who are so picky and sometimes jaded, sometimes so closed off and sometimes overly picky because it's actually a defense mechanism to not have the risk of intimacy. And you need to know where you are because a different strategy is going to apply depending on where you are on that, that spectrum. And I'd say a lot of people that I work with who are very high achieving, they are on the side of the spectrum where they toss people out way too quickly.

[Host]

But what does that even mean? Does that mean like, okay, I understand you've maybe you've come late to meet my friends once, twice. Maybe we have a bit of conflict. Like, how do you know to keep. Like, do you have to just keep going and going until it's a 100?

[Amy Chan]

No, no, not at all. So think that this is whether you're in a relationship or you're dating someone. I, I have this thing called the bucket. So basically the shit bucket means that in any relationship there's going to be a bucket and 20% of that bucket is going to be shit. The things that annoy you, that they're, they're late, that they don't speak the same love language, maybe they're a little messy, but they're not deal breakers. There are things that you can tolerate even though it's frustrating, and the key is to not have that go over 20%. If you're like 40, 50% chip bucket, you're like, this is not viable.

[Host]

Wow.

[Amy Chan]

And by the way, this is totally not scientific. I totally made it up. But if you have this mentality, you know, that you don't just toss every person that has these things that annoy you because the next person will also be a shit bucket with a different flavor.

[Host]

Because not everyone's perfect.

[Amy Chan]

Exactly.

[Host]

Okay. So then it comes down to just, okay, I know you're a bit late, or maybe you, maybe you did this, or maybe you've, maybe you're eating with your mouth open. Whatever, whatever. People are nitpicking, but I can live with that because you are a really good person and we're, we're having a really great time together.

[Amy Chan]

Part of building the skill of being able to be in a long term relationship is building your skill of tolerance. And this like, especially for people who are very successful, especially for people who have teams working for them, doing things, I find that a lot of the times they struggle with tolerance. They are so used to getting things their way when they want it, how they want it. And unfortunately, when it comes to intimate relationship with another person with a whole set of history, trauma, wounds, whatever it is, that's just not realistic. And if you cannot have any tolerance for people because they chew with their mouth open, yeah, it's annoying, you'd rather they don't do that. If you can't have any tolerance, you probably cannot be in a long term relationship.

[Host]

Amy There was, I went to a wedding, I would say, 10 years ago, and the mother of the groom spoke and she said something that I can't get out of my head. She's talking about successful marriages because she has been with her husband, you know, I guess 50 years. And she said the key to it, and I never really understood it until now, she said the key to a long lasting relationship is to become a little bit deaf sometimes. And she said that over time, over the course of many, many years, frustration occurs because you're two people with two sets of values. You've come from two different households coming together, creating a life. And sometimes throughout that course of 10, 20, 30 years, you may say, you may hear your partner say something that is hurtful. And what I have learned, this is what she said, what I've learned over the years is, you know, he doesn't mean that. So I just become a Little bit deaf. And then we move on and that's how we, we co create. And I thought that's interesting. Just become a little bit deaf during those times if it, you know, because you are going to have conflict.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, I hate the people who think that we should never fight. Yes.

[Amy Chan]

Makes no sense.

[Host]

Makes no sense. I mean, we don't want you to fight continuously over and over again. But it's. You have to have these many disagreements. Something that I didn't ask you about. Which comes in nicely now. Are these attachment styles?

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Which I remember researching it by the way. I was getting my, my, my education from TikTok at the time, which I don't think is a very reliable source, but I was learned. It's the first time I learned about attachment styles.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. So attachments theory describes that by the age of around two years old, we develop an attachment system style which determines how we relate romantically as adults. So as a child we have this attachment to our primary caregiver. And then when we get into a relationship, that attachment moves onto our partner. And depending on how your caregiver responded to your needs, it can influence and impact your attachment. So there's three main types. Secure is around 45 to 50% of the population. And these are people who are not afraid of intimacy. They're also not codependent. When there is conflict, they're able to move through it. They're emotionally regulated and they have the highest levels of satisfaction in marriages. Lower divorce rates, lower infidelity rates. Then there's insecure attachment. And this is divided between avoidant and anxious. Now they're two different sides of the same coin a lot of the times. And there's like these two sides demonizing each other. They are both rooted from a fear that intimacy is not safe. They're just expressed in different ways.

[Host]

Okay, okay.

[Amy Chan]

So avoidantly attach. Often the childhood environment was one where maybe one of the parents lived vicariously through the child or was very controlling. Maybe they were actually completely not there for the child. Maybe there was a sibling who was sick or had a disease and all the attention went to the sibling. Right. It doesn't mean that your parents were evil. They just were doing what they could with what tools that they had. And so that child learns like, oh, intimacy is either going to smother me and control me and that's very, it feels very unsafe to me. Or like I'm not going to get my needs met anyway, so screw it, I'm going to just be hyper independent. And then they Grow up. And when people get a little too emotionally close, they do what's called deactivating strategies, where they just push them away. And these are done often subconsciously. They're not aware that they are doing it. Should I go into anxious?

[Host]

Yeah, I think with that one is what it's scary as well. That one can be scary to think like, oh, my God, this person is just mean, and they're just throwing me away and they don't want anything to do with me, but we don't often think about where it might have come from.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. And when they've done this study, it's called the Strange situation Test, where they've taken, like, babies into a room and they looked at how they react when their mother left the room. What they found was with the avoidant child, the avoidant child would almost act aloof even when the mom was in the room. Then the mom would leave and the child would still act aloof. The mom would come back and would still act aloof. But when they measured the stress, the stress markers in their urine and their cortisol, they actually had the higher stress response internally, even though externally they weren't showing it.

[Host]

Oh, wow. And you're saying that that then carries out into adulthood.

[Amy Chan]

So it's really interesting to look at that, because when you look at how someone is an avoidant as an adult, and especially if you've dated one, you're like, wow, they don't care. None of this is bothering them. But while they on the outside might look like they're not having a reaction, they're still having the responses on a cortisol level, on a stress level, they're just not showing it. And a lot of the times they're disconnected to how they feel. It is really hard for them to be like, this is sadness, this is fear.

[Host]

And then how do you know what.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Attachment style you have?

[Host]

Like, how do you know? Because sometimes it's hard.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. There is a pretty robust quiz you can find online, and I think, like, a general way of looking at it is what is your root fear? Is your fear that someone, a romantic partner, will take away your intimacy and your freedom and your independence? Or is your root fear I'm going to get abandoned or rejected? Because that is the anxious attachment fear.

[Host]

Okay, so anxious attachment is that means you're attached to them, like, anxiously, like, you're. Is that. Is that like you're. You're scared that every time they leave, they're gonna just leave you and the relationship?

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. So anxiously attached children tend to come from environments where there was inconsistent caregiving. And this could have been because you. Your mother had postpartum or was depressed and couldn't read your cues all the time. And so sometimes you got your needs met, but sometimes you didn't. So your nervous system is like, am I gonna. Am I gonna survive? Am I not gonna survive? And so what happens is that child ends up being very hypervigilant to any cues of disconnection from their primary caregiver, and then as an adult to their partner. And some of it is grounded in, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I can sense that they're not that into it. Or sometimes it's a fear. Like, oh, my gosh, they wanted to have a night out with their friends. Like, does that mean that they don't love me? And then you could actually spiral after being triggered and do what's called protest behavior. This could be punishing. This could be calling like crazy, showing up. That's what I used to do. Or you could do this other thing where you masquerade as an avoidant, which is. Which is something I also learned to do, which is like, okay, I can't just show up at where they work, so I'm just gonna pretend to cut them off. I'll just cut them off. And, like, not. You know, they took four hours to reply to my text. I'll take four days.

[Host]

Yes, take that.

[Amy Chan]

But I'm calculating every hour.

[Host]

Oh, my gosh. It just seems like such a job. Okay. Oh, my gosh. It's like, how do I have a job and how do I date and be healthy? It's like. Like, why couldn't we just have an arranged marriage where everything is just roses? Okay, So I think what you're. What you're saying and alluding to is that we are all different. We all come from a. You know, like, we've got traumas, if you will, maybe addressing those and understanding those. I have a friend, actually, Drew Pruitt, who interviewed me last week, and he's married. And he said one of the best.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Things he did was he went to.

[Host]

Somebody who assessed whether they were compatible.

[Amy Chan]

Oh, interesting.

[Host]

Yeah. And he. He suggested ever, and he put it out on his Instagram, the person that he saw. But basically he wanted to know whether this woman for him was fit for marriage. And they went to a. Maybe it was a therapist who does solely that they assess whether this is going to work out. I don't know what was discussed there, but this is what this person does for a living. And everyone has had A successful marriage after that, whatever you deem that. And I think that makes me think about couples therapy. And if you agree with something along those lines, even if you're healthy, like, just, why don't the both of us, just for better communication, just see somebody? It doesn't mean that we're in turmoil and we're, you know.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah. I mean, in our businesses, we have a board of advisor, we have a coach. We have all of these things. But in our relationship, which is the hardest thing to maintain, we're like, we're gonna just do this on our own. Like, of course, if you can have a coach, you can have a therapist go before there is a fire. You can be proactive. And sometimes I know for myself if my partner and I are in a conflict, and I'm like, I don't want to be the therapist or coach in it. And I'm like, okay, we're gonna actually just table this. We'll book it. We're gonna resume the week as normal. Do our activities, go for a walk, and then we actually have a third person. And then our nervous system is calmed down, and then we could talk through it like functional adults.

[Host]

Wow. So, okay, so when is your next boot camp? And I love. I've got a page open right now, guys. It says, fantasy, will you. Your brain on love. It's very true. And in your book, you've also got some. You know, you can document yourself. You've got some things here that you can write down, and. And I think that's really good. Do you also do relationship camps as well?

[Amy Chan]

Not yet. I spent my first seven years on breakups. Now I'm doing dating, helping people get into relationships. And then I'm sure in seven years, I'll get into helping people sustain relationships.

[Host]

Okay, so then you've got your book, which we're going to link below. Breakup Boot camp, the science of rewiring your heart. Amy Chan, When's the next. I guess, breakup boot camp.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah, I'll have one in the fall.

[Host]

Okay.

[Amy Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

And are they in Canada?

[Amy Chan]

Are they in the US they're typically in California, and I'm looking at doing an online version as well.

[Host]

Are you sure you need you. You can be helping people. Yeah. All over the world. Amy Chan, thank you so much for being part of the youg Experience podcast.

[Amy Chan]

So fun. Thank you.