B (2:15)

Were you already selling pans at this time?

A (2:18)

I was, yes.

B (2:19)

What type of pans were you selling?

A (2:21)

Yeah. So prior to starting Caraway, I worked for a Amazon conglomerate that owned a bunch of different brands. And When I was 23 or 24, my first job out of school kind of got thrown into this. Didn't know anything about kitchenware. And in kind of two and a half, three years at that role, launched over 200 kitchen products. And we sold just what everyone else was. Cookware, bakeware, food storage. I did air purifiers and air conditioners. So I had this great experience of working across a lot of materials and spent a lot of time overseas at manufacturers. And, you know, we were just selling the common materials, figuring they were safe and, you know, what was industry standard.

B (3:04)

And that was Teflon at the time, right?

A (3:06)

That's right, yeah. And so for a number of years was selling a lot of plastic products, products with Teflon on them. And it never really sat right with me, this kind of experience, overheating the pan happened a couple years into my journey there. But all through that time at this role, I spent a lot of time in Asia at different factories. And the manufacturing processes that I saw never really felt right to me. I remember going to one factory and we were in this dark room and they were kind of putting pans into this big bath. And I started asking questions and found out what this process called hard anodization is, which is when they harden aluminum and cookware to make it harder and last longer. And it's essentially dipping aluminum into sulfuric acid.

B (3:57)

So what is hard anodization?

A (3:59)

Yeah, so it's a process where they take cookware, they dip it in sulfuric acid, and essentially what it's doing is hardening the metal or aluminum so that it can't scratch, it can't dent. And this was kind of my first exposure to seeing the other side of manufacturing where they're using a lot of poor manufacturing processes and in this case they're using sulfuric acid. I used to walk kind of trade shows within the cookware industry, and you go through booths and booths of plastic and poor materials. And I used to kind of come out of those trade shows feeling just kind of like depressed about the industry on why is cheap materials the common material in the market. And throughout this whole kind of experience, it was great to be kind of getting my first entrepreneurial journey, getting to run a brand. But at the same time, I always had this kind of urge to launch something that was safer, and I didn't feel good about selling products with plastic or hard anodized aluminum and eventually kind of discovered Teflon and PFAS and the dangers of those.

B (5:06)

Yeah, I want to talk about that because that's. That's pretty much like the pivotal moment for you, right? When you found out that certain materials contain these toxic chemicals.

A (5:17)

Right, Exactly.

B (5:18)

So. So. And that's a huge shift for you. What. What year was this?

A (5:22)

This was back in 2017 or 2018.

B (5:24)

Back. This is way back. You know, I started the podcast in 2017, so people weren't really talking about PFAS and. And these toxic chemicals. It's only like, in the last two years that we've really, you know, gone deep on microplastics, you know, so the world is now waking up to that. Before we bridge the gap, I think it might be really good to define what all of these are. So walk me through specific materials I really want. PFOA is ptfe. I know what PFAS is, but you can obviously touch on that a bit more. But why they're still in cookware in 2026 and what they all do.

A (6:02)

Absolutely. So PFAS has a category. They're also known as Forever Chemicals. The reason they're named that is once they're made, they can't actually be broken down. And so PFAS were first introduced back in the late 1930s, early 1940s during the Manhattan Project. So kind of was built out of this time period and later commercialized in the 60s or 70s. And the main benefit of PFAS or Forever Chemicals as a category is that they're extremely nonstick. So anything that you can think of in your home that you're wearing umbrellas that repel water, any liquid, typically those have some type of PFAS in them. And so one of the first use cases for PFAS was within cookware. And interestingly, over time, there's about 14 to 15,000 types of forever chemicals actually made. And really the common variable between them is that they have fluorine and carbon. And so the chemical structure is slightly different depending on the 14 or 15,000 in the use case. But where forever chemicals were really first introduced was within cookware. And so this was in the early 1970s. This was a huge revolution in terms of cookware for the first time being non stick, and for about the first kind of 30, 40 or 50 years within cookware having Teflon on it, it leveraged this chemical called pfoa, which is one of the types of pfas. And so pfoa, over the course of a few decades, had a number of studies come out showing that it was linked to cancer and a lot of negative health outcomes. And it ended up actually getting banned in 2015. And so now today, what's in kind of PFAS cookware is ptfe, which is kind of a new type of pfas. The difference is a couple of carbons, but it's still a forever chemical within traditional nonstick cookware.

B (7:56)

Well, it kind of made sense back then. Right. We were moving into this era where we were trying to become more industrialized, even with our time figuring out what. What is the best use case scenario of our time. You know, the rise of the Internet, like, things were just coming back where we just would start to understand productivity. And then these new inventions of, hey, we can, you know, you can now fry an egg and it doesn't have to stick to the pan. I can only imagine at the time what this would have meant, right?

A (8:25)

Absolutely. It was a marvel innovation that really came to market and really was the main kind of cookware material for many, many years. And, you know, I think look at a lot of materials that have kind of come to light over the past decade or so. Oftentimes there's not a lot of research at the beginning, and it takes kind of many decades to really understand the impacts. And I think one of the things with PFAS in general is at Caraway, we like to define the word toxic with kind of three definitions. One is toxic for human health, one is toxic for animals, and the third is toxic for the environment. And I think what's really been interesting is through the development of PFAs and the 14 or 15,000 types, we've kind of come to realize that forever chemicals are really pervasive in the environment. So once they're made, they can actually be broken down. It's in our water, it's in our soil. We're consuming it every day through different products, materials, the air, et cetera. And like a lot of materials, it kind of takes something new or an alternative or an incumbent coming in to present, you know, an alternative to what consumers are using today.

B (9:36)

You mentioned this word, fluorinated flu. Is that. Is that how I say fluorinated? Fluorinated compounds. And they are lipophilic, meaning that they accumulate in fat tissue, which is scary because that must mean that they can cross the blood brain barrier, essentially, and get into brain tissue as well.

A (9:54)

Yeah. So there's a lot of studies out there on pfas. I think one of the challenges today is there's so many types of PFAs and it takes so long to, you know, do clinical trials and studies and toxicology that there's not, you know, enough data on every single type. But from what we know and a lot of the studies out there, PFAS as a whole, you know, whether it's PFO or other types, have really proven to be extremely dangerous. And when it comes to your home and your kitchen and your health, there are alternatives to use that are, you know, safer and you don't necessarily need to, you know, bring that risk within the home. And I think one of the really interesting things about PFAS in general is I think the longevity of the use case. So I think what's interesting is Teflon's typically used because it is a material that lasts longer and it's really impenetrable. But on the flip side, the fact that it actually lasts forever means that it's actually more pervasive and dangerous for a longer period.

B (10:56)

Like packeted food.

A (10:57)

Exactly.

B (10:58)

And so because this lasts long, longer, is this why the. It's like the default for most manufacturers?

A (11:03)

It is. So I think what's interesting in cookware in the kitchen is when I started caraway back in 2017, so I think to start this was only a couple or years after PFOA was phased out. And at that time, personally, I was like a lot of people starting to eat healthier, you know, buying organic and grass fed. And I think the whole wellness economy really started in food and then started making its way into supplements and beauty. And the home was kind of the last place that really got tackled. And I think like a lot of categories, the kitchen is one where you've had a lot of legacy brands sitting on shelves for many, many decades. They've got supply chains built around certain materials, and unless there's kind of pressure to change, there's really no reason for brands to innovate. And so this was a category where it kind of took brands like Caraway and others to bring forth an alternative. And, you know, the whole supply chain and happy to talk, go deeper into it, is really built around pfas, which, you know, we're around for many, many decades.

B (12:14)

There is something I see over and over again with the women I work with. They're doing everything right. Training, eating well, optimizing sleep, and they still feel off. Low energy, brain fog, mood fluctuations, and a lot of the time it Comes back to something really simple. They're evidently deficient in key nutrients such as iron, folate, zinc, vitamin D, B vitamins, especially if they're menstruating. And most supplements just don't account for that. They're built on male default models and or they chase symptoms instead of fixing the foundation. That's why I started using daily basis. It's a cycle aligned multivitamin powder. Two formulas, one for each phase of your cycle. Replenish in the first half, especially around your period, to restore what you're losing and balance in the second half to support mood, inflammation and gut health. It's one stick a day. You mix it with water. That's it. For me, the biggest shift has been consistency in how I feel. More stable energy in the first half of my cycle and in the second half, better focus, better mood and I'm sleeping better. It's foundational. Not a stack, not a quick fix, just one thing a day that covers what most people are missing. They're doing a really special offer for the Neuro Experience audience. You can use coding euro for 50% off your first month. That is coding euro for 50% off. The link is below in the show notes. I'm actually really interested in the birth of Caraway. What does caraway mean?

A (13:51)

So caraway stands for where cares go away. And you know, our mission as a brand is to make all homes non toxic homes. And so you know, we view the home as kind of your safe haven, a safe space and we really don't want consumers to have any worry within their their household.

B (14:07)

I would love to know. I'm like extremely interested in founders, their brain and the birth of a new product. It takes a lot, if you look at this from a neuroscience perspective to really understand and decompress what a founder goes through in terms of creativity. The neural architecture that's involved in that is very different. That's why we don't have founders everywhere. Although a lot of people now are trying to act like one. But like, you know, to really start something so monumental, like you have to take so much into consideration both product and mission. And I think that that's what Caraway does. You're very mission led as you just mentioned, but the product is really special. Like I only use caraway. I use it evidently in my cookware. I've got all the pots and pans necessary, but the cutting boards as well. And I share the same mission as you. I'm trying to make my life incredibly non toxic. It's so funny. My friends will Come over to my. My small New York City apartment, I always say, and I've got two air purifiers in the apartment. They're like, is this really necessary? I'm like, probably not, but I'm doing it anyway. So what was the. What was it like for you, mindset wise at the birth of this company in 2017?

A (15:26)

I was always an entrepreneur. I grew up with parents who had a small business, and I actually tried to launch my first startup out. So I always knew I wanted to run something that one failed, but was a great learning experience. And for me, I've always just wanted to do something that I love, do something that really drives impact. And I don't think if you asked me a decade ago if I'd be in kitchenware, it was something I kind of got tossed into, but fell in love. And I think what's so great about the home and the kitchen is they're. There's so many spaces to tackle, both from a design and material standpoint. But when starting Caraway, I mean, initially you just want to survive, right. And so you have this grand mission, but the business really needs to work to have a major impact. And so we started with just cookware. When we launched to market, we launched with ceramic nonstick, which at the time had been in the market, but nobody really talked about it, kind of sat on retail shelves. And we felt like there's a great opportunity to tell the story around ceramic and that there is a nonstick option and alternative to Teflon. And so the mission started super, super small. And we launched three months before COVID which was super interesting because Covid hit. We didn't know what was going to happen. And lo and behold, everyone was trapped at home. They were cooking, they're focused on their health, and the brand really took off from there. And so it's been extremely, you know, an extremely hard journey, very exciting and fulfilling. And I feel like we're just getting started. And while we started in cookware, we're now in bakeware today. Food storage, cutting boards, utensils and.

B (17:09)

Oh, yeah, the food storage is amazing.

A (17:11)

Yeah. And our mission now is to really bring, you know, that same attention to detail and design and materials across the full home and kitchen.

B (17:19)

So what is it about your pans that competes with Teflon but is a safer option? Like, what is. What is it in there? What's the special ingredient, no pun intended, that you have in your cookware that's allowing my eggs to not stick to the pan?

A (17:36)

So we use a ceramic Nonstick. It's made in a sol gel process, which is just kind of a liquid form of ceramic that then gets hardened in an oven and there's no PFAS in it. And so ceramic is widely available. We want others to come into the market and also sell ceramic. But it's really interesting. There's a lot of resistance in the category from some of the old incumbents to changing. And interestingly, it costs the same to make ceramic as it does Teflon. What it does. Yes.

B (18:07)

Why is Teflon still on the market then?

A (18:10)

It's crazy. It's a good question. I mean, consumers don't want it, retailers don't want it. And I think like a lot of industries, you have these markets, bigger companies who have really built their whole businesses off of this one material and have really failed to innovate and are resisting it. I think, really, interestingly, there are six, I think around six states right now who have actually banned PFAS and cookware. Minnesota went into effect for the first state last year in January of 2025. Recently, Maine and Colorado banned PFAS and cookware. I think Connecticut and a few others are up next. And a lot of these groups are kind of lobbying and fighting to keep PFAS on shelves. And really the only reason is just failure to innovate and adopt kind of where the consumer's going. From a manufacturing standpoint, it's really no different than just choosing one material over the other. But ceramic comes in all types of qualities. And I think the thing that we really take pride in at Caraway is we're the most third party tested brand in the market. So we test for over 600 types of PFAS, 20 heavy metals, total organic fluorine. So if there's no organic fluorine, it means there's no PFAS in it amongst a lot of other materials.

B (19:29)

Oh my God, Jordan, I love this. Right? So I'm. If you've done any homework on me, you know, I'm very big on a few supplements. Right. And the supplement industry is extremely unregulated. Unregulated. And something that I always tell the listeners is make sure that the brand of supplement that you go to is, is third party tested, whether that is NSF certified. And that's not the only one. You want to have like thorough testing on what you're putting in your body. I've never heard of a cookware company third party testing their products. What is, what does it look like? So you do you mentioned 600 PFAS chemicals. Yeah. What else is it actually like? What are you exposing when you go through these third party testing?

A (20:13)

Yeah. So it's a rigorous process. Typically we're testing the interior surface. We also test, you know, exterior coating handles, et cetera. And it really differs by product. And not all ceramic is equal. And so it's really important for brands to be doing these tests. And you know, I believe we're the first brand to test for 600 PFAS. The lab we actually went to could only test for 200 before and we really pushed for more. We'd like to get to that 14 to 15,000 eventually. But what can actually happen in manufacturing and this was something we brought to our manufacturers was back in 2019 when we first launched the brand. And this was part of the reason it took two years to get to market was most manufacturers spray pan coatings, whether it's Teflon or ceramic on the same production line. So what can happen is contamination if you're using the same spray guns. So it's really important when you're buying from a manufacturer today. Now everyone says they're non toxic and they use ceramic. But it's important to make sure that who you're buying from has third party testing because contamination can actually happen at the source. And for something to be truly non toxic, you need the Teflon line at the factory separated from the ceramic line. And surprisingly, some factories are doing this today, others aren't. And that was something we actually brought to the category and it's being more widely adopted. But not all ceramic is equal because of that quality and the manufacturing process that needs to be vetted when the pans are actually sprayed.

B (21:48)

Hey everyone, I want to take a quick break and talk to you about magnesium and berberine. I get a lot of sugar cravings, I'm not going to lie. And this is mainly because I've just got this sweet tooth and I'm always trying to combat it. I heard about a potent supplement, it's called berberine and they call it the poor man's metformin. But berberine is one of the most studied compounds for supporting healthy blood sugar and insulin sensitivity levels. And this is all tied to cognitive performance and long term brain health. I use the JS Health berberine. I'm also using their magnesium. And what I like about this formulation specifically is the absorption. And I know JS Health, it uses bioavailable forms with what they call a phyto zone delivery system, which means that you're actually getting the benefit, not just Taking another capsule. And something I see constantly in both my executives and athletes is this feeling that their metabolism is working against them. They're getting those energy dips, cravings, poor sleep, brain fog. This can help you restore that balance. So if you want to try JS Health or if your metabolism has felt like it's not working with you, it's working against you, this is where you should start. Head to jshealthvitamins.com use code neuro for 20% off your order. I think from a company standpoint, obviously caraway, you want it to grow and get, you know, huge. You mentioned earlier offline that you've got like a 10 year vision. And what I think is remarkable is I love to study founders. Well, you know, people who have done great things. Like we were also talking about Steve Jobs and who I love, I love his obsession with product. He's very, very product driven. Whereas you'll get Jeff Bezos who is very customer centric. Right. But when you look at Steve Jobs, he said something really interesting and I'm probably going to butcher the quote, but he said a product should be better than what it has to be. For example, I don't know if you know this, but, but before they released the MacBook, right, he said, I want the inside of it to look beautiful. And the manufacturers were like, why do you care? No one's going to be looking on the inside. He said, but I am. And he was so obsessed with the tiny, tiny little details that made the product what it is. And I kind of see, you know, a reflection of that in you where you've become obsessed with really building the best available product. Like I use your products. And I didn't know that there was third party testing for over 600 chemicals, which I think is phenomenal.

A (24:40)

Yeah, I'd say we take a, actually very similar approach to Apple. And Steve Jobs is, you know, I think a big inspiration for myself and many. But for us, like the brand really is about standards and details. We always use this phrase internally that industry standards aren't our standards. And there's actually a great interview of Jobs where he's in a classroom and someone challenges him on the price of Apple and. And he goes, we just can't ship junk. We're not going to put things out that our family and friends wouldn't be proud to have in their homes. And we just wouldn't want to put something into the world that doesn't meet our standard. And we really take kind of ownership over that same mentality. At Caraway So when it comes to materials, we're always pushing ourselves to use the best. Our average R and D time is about five years to get to market. And there are times we get three years into a project and realize that we can make it safer because new technology is out that wasn't there three years earlier and we'll just completely restart. When it comes to the design and the packaging, we think through every little detail and for us it's really important to I think push the industry standard and whether it's materials, design, performance and we really take pride in that. And I think when we think about, think long term and we look at the brand, we really want to create this ecosystem of products that work together. And when you think I want something that's safe, easy to use, brings me peace of mind instantly. Caraway comes to mind.

B (26:08)

Yeah, I think when you take that approach, you're always going to win. You know so many people think that there is saturated markets and I'm like, well everything could be deemed as saturated right now. Right. But what is not saturated is talent, obsession, drive and mission. Right. Because there's a lot of people who are like we just want to make money. Especially now with the rise of AI. Like I think we've just had our first ever one person, billion dollar, billion dollar business. I think it was he, it was something where he was able to manufacture, just him and his brother, manufacture or not manufacture, just what is it they they AI optimized or automated Ozempic or GLP ones and it turned into like a valued at $1.5 billion. Right. And so you can get people who are like we don't care about anything else other than just like how much money can we make. But that hits a ceiling eventually when you really care about people and you care about your customers and you care about their health, which is everything in my opinion, you will rise and you will be the biggest and best company in that category.

A (27:12)

Yeah, fully agree. And I think for us specifically we are a mission driven brand and I always say this to our team, but we have a 100 year mission. We want to be around in 100 years and I have two kids under two and my hope is that we kind of build a non toxic future for them so that they have better alternatives than we had growing up. And I think for us we're six years in, we're just getting started and we've really focused our first five years on yes, building great products and materials, but also building a strong business and we've got a lot to tackle. I mean, the home is a big space. There's a lot of material innovation to come. And I think the thing that we really like to push ourselves on is there's some stuff today that we wish we could make safer or better. But I think we're of the belief that we're just going to keep improving, and over time, we'll get there. And our job is to make sure whatever we put out is the safest or the cleanest out there in the market.

B (28:13)

Okay, I want to give something to the men listening here or honestly, to anyone who has a man in their life. Let me tell you something. We spend so much time thinking about what we put in our bodies, but most men and women never think twice about what they're putting on their skin every single day. And a lot of those everyday products, I'm talking shampoos, body washes, contain ingredients linked to hormone disruption. This is why you or your man need to make the switch to Based Body Works. I actually introduced Based Body Works to somebody close to me, and the difference was immediate. First of all, let's talk about their shampoo. The shampoo from Based Body Works uses peppermint and argan oil. So the scalp feels clean without being stripped. And over time, the hair just looks healthier. No sulfates, no unnecessary chemicals, just ingredients that actually make sense. And you know what, guys? I know all of these products are usually made for women, but this one is made for men. So if the men in your life have been using the same products forever without thinking about what's in them, and you're noticing those hormone changes in them, the easiest way to upgrade it is to change to Based Body Works. And if you want to, you can go to basedbodyworks.com use code nero for 20% off. And guess what? They'll get a free toiletry bag when they buy a set.

A (29:37)

Come on.

B (29:38)

We all know that the men want that. Because confidence shouldn't come at a cost of your health. Can I commission you to make a shower head? Even that's got nothing to do with cookware.

A (29:46)

Absolutely.

B (29:47)

Because I did it to the roadmap. I'm telling you, I don't know what it is. I was raised in Australia, right? But when I came to New York, something happened with my hair. Okay? So I'm becoming really obsessed with that. But I digress. Okay, I want to just point out some science here for everybody. The Plymouth Marine Lab 2004 study showed that daily paper plastic cookware use contributes to thousands of particles annually into food, old and scratched pans release 78% more particles than new ones. And whisking, stirring, cutting, like these little things that we take for granted are sufficient to trigger these releases. I think it's interesting. I didn't even know that scratches on pans meant something. And that was when a girlfriend of mine yelled at me because I was using. I think I was like, I was. I wasn't using a wooden scraper in the. You know. And she's like, don't use that. You're going to scratch the pan. I said so? And she's like, because when you scratch the pan, it releases all these toxic chemicals. Is that true?

A (30:53)

So when you're. When you're cooking, obviously it's a very chaotic space. You've got a hot flame on. You might have kids running in the background. And once materials are heated, whether it's plastic or pfas or they're scratched, they do tend to break down. And the more that you're using them, the more that they can break down as well. And so it is important that you're not scratching your coatings. That's why leveraging ceramic or stainless or cast iron are great alternatives. But plastics, a huge issue in the kitchen. You really look around your whole home and kitchen, and it's just everywhere. And I think one of the scariest spots where plastic exists is within your cutting board. You're taking a knife, you're cutting food onto it, shavings are getting into your food.

B (31:39)

Yes. That's a huge one.

A (31:42)

Yep. And then you're using plastic utensils. So a lot of people have these black nylon utensils in their home, and you might be dipping that into boiling water. And what do you think happens when plastic gets heated? It starts to melt into your food. And so you're really in this environment where you have heat, you have stuff chipping, you have food, and the risk for leaching into that and you can eventually consuming that is very, very high.

B (32:07)

Have you got information on. So you have cutting boards, which I have, and there's three different sizes, but they're wooden.

A (32:16)

Yeah.

B (32:17)

So why, why wood?

A (32:19)

Wood's a natural material. It's safe to use. You do need to clean them so that bacteria doesn't grow, but they are really the safest out there. And you know what I would recommend, and same thing with utensils, definitely would recommend wood as well, so that you have no plastic within your. Your environment.

B (32:38)

What do you. Of course. But when you said you do recommend cleaning them, doesn't everybody clean their cutting boards?

A (32:45)

Mostly with dish soap and water, but typically you want to use, like, a lemon, like lemon juice. And kosher salt is, like, the best way to clean them. So there are specific.

B (32:57)

Can you teach me about that? Because I usually. I haven't been cleaning it with kosher salt.

A (33:02)

So I believe you put lemon juice on the board, you put kosher salt and then you rub the, like, a half of a lemon.

B (33:08)

Oh, you've also. I also got oil that works as

A (33:11)

well to condition them so that more like, keeps the boards hydrated so that they don't crack.

B (33:18)

That is so interesting. I'm going to start doing that, like, I'm going to start using the salt and the lemon juice, scrubbing it, and then I'll put the oil on to make sure that the longevity is there. I really want to, like. The reason why I'm so passionate about this and why I really wanted to bring you on is because there's been a huge study that came out of. Of a lab in Australia. And this was, I've got to say, back in, like, maybe 20. It was 2025, but it was, like, around June last year where they showed the first ever samples of microplastics getting into brain tissue. We've seen it show up in testicles and in ovaries, and that's so, so scary for me, this is when I actually made the switch to caraway. Like, when I saw. I thought, oh, my gosh, it's now affecting the very organ that I'm spending my life talking about, which is my brain. So I want to just point a few things out for everybody. This was a Nature Medicine 2025 study which showed that microplastics found in human brain tissue at higher concentrations than the liver and kidney, which is insane, right? The brain concentrations rose from 50% between 2016 and 2024. That means that there's more microplastics that people are accumulating over time. And when we look at dementia brains, right, it shows the highest accumulation deposited in cerebral vascular and immune cells. The immune cells in the brain are the glial cells. So it's so interesting that this is also in conjunction with the rise of autoimmune diseases. So these microplastics are, even though they're small, they're really causing a lot of problems and contributing to chronic diseases.

A (35:09)

You are consuming them every day, everywhere. I think I've seen studies or headlines that the average consumer ingests about one credit card's worth of plastic per week, which is just wild.

B (35:22)

It makes me sick.

A (35:23)

You look around your house and plastic is just hiding in plain sight, right? It's in your kitchen, on your utensils, cutting boards, food storage, your soap dispensers, your shampoos, the clothes that you're wearing with polyester, your sheets, it's really kind of all around you. And I think the scary thing about both microplastics and PFAS today is that they're so widely used within our environment that it could be in your air falling onto your products that you have at home that were manufactured safe. And so it's really daunting to think about, like, how do I tackle all this? I always recommend to people to start with what you use kind of the most and really start there. But when you think about your home and really creating a safe space, it's really about the system of products that kind of work together across it. And so the kitchen's one room and the living room and, and bathroom, et cetera. But if you're buying caraway or other safe products within the market, but then you're taking a ceramic nonstick Dutch oven and you're pouring water into it, and that water's not filtered. You could be having boiling water with PFAS and microplastics in it and then you're using a gas stove. And so these materials are just kind of all around us today. And it's really important to be wary of trying to choose products and make decisions just like you would on organic or grass fed and kind of those micro decisions every day.

B (36:54)

That's why I use aggressively my air purifier. And sometimes when I'm cooking, it goes to red. And when I'm blow drying my hair, it goes crazy. It goes red.

A (37:08)

Yeah. So I love a gas stove, but I always turn on my hood. I've got an air purifier running. I keep one in my office, in my bedroom, in my kid's room. And you know, toxins really come from everywhere. And so I think for me personally, I've, I'm obviously in this industry, so I'm more aware. But I think for the average consumer, just making, you know, choices bit by bit within your home is a great start. And the kitchen's really easy, I'd say, to tackle. And water and air, I think are really the next two that, you know, I think can, can rid your home of a lot of chemicals.

B (37:49)

What is the most sold product at Caraway?

A (37:53)

It's our cookware. So that's what we launched with that, that's what we're most Known for. But interestingly, some of our highest growth categories are utensils, the wood cutting boards and food storage as well.

B (38:06)

So your food storage is very heavy compared to the regular food storage containers. Like I get glass ones, but when I got the cutaway ones, they're really heavy.

A (38:15)

Yeah. So super durable. They're kind of the highest end in the market right now. And as we kind of talked about, we're really focused on design and details and quality. And that was a really interesting market where there was nothing high end. And we wanted to bring in that perspective but also bring a really safe option for customers to use. You take food that was in your pan and hot and dump it into plastic Tupperware. Oftentimes that plastics can actually leach into the food that you just cooked. And I always find it really interesting. You know, a lot of our consumers will go shop organic from the grocery store, but then they're actually bringing that home and they're putting it into plastic or, you know, potentially unsafe materials.

B (38:59)

You mentioned that you're going into a whole new line as well. Not a new line, but you're going to start expanding your line. Are you able to tell us?

A (39:08)

I can't go into the exact products, but I always like to say we're Caraway home for a reason. We named it that on purpose. The brand's just six years old. We've gone, you know, really wide across the kitchen right now. And we did just launch our first home product last week, which was a trash and recycling bin. So that was kind of our first step into kind of the broader kitchen and home. And our vision as mentioned is to build a non toxic home. So you can take that in any direction you want to.

B (39:36)

Oh, the shower head is coming. I feel it. Anything to do with shower or.

A (39:40)

We envision a world in 20 years. You come into a caraway store, we help you design your kitchen and you're literally able to buy a non toxic home and kitchen. And so for us, we're really just getting started and you know, we really get excited about categories that work together with the current system, but also building into categories around some Personas. So a lot of our customers are parents. There's a lot there to look at. You know, we're not in water or air today. I don't know that we ever will be. Maybe there's some partnerships there, but those are areas that I think are really interesting to start thinking about and how do we partner, work together with, you know, potentially other brands within those categories.

B (40:23)

Yeah, I definitely feel like there's going to be a caraway bathroom set that I'll be first to get. So I did have a question, which I don't know if you've covered. And this is just me and my brain in 2020 as well. There was also this huge rise of cast iron. What's that?

A (40:43)

Yeah, so cast iron's one of the main three cookware materials. So you have traditional cookware, which is either aluminum or stainless steel bodies coated with ceramic or Teflon. Then you have stainless steel cookware and then cast iron. So those are kind of the three types of products available. Cast iron is a great material. The people who use it really swear by it. But it's really heavy. You have to season it. It's not really for your everyday, so. And then there are folks who may or may not want iron, you know, coming into your food. So that's kind of a concern there. But generally they're safe. They're great. They're just really heavy and hard to maintain.

B (41:24)

Extremely heavy, yep. Is it true that you can't put any of these products from caraway into the dishwasher?

A (41:32)

That's. Well, you can. It will wear away kind of the quality of, of the product. So it's just that the dishwasher is a really aggressive environment for products. So even like your steak knives or, you know, any knives you don't want to be putting in there, it'll wear away kind of any coatings, any materials. It reduces longevity. Cookware in particular has handles that are riveted onto the pans. It can weaken that joint over time. And so, you know, we try to really engineer the best coating so that they're super easy to clean, you know, just under your sink. And, you know, we do prefer hand wash, although technically you could put stuff in the dishwasher.

B (42:19)

Yes, I, I mean, look, I don't do any of that. I usually just, it's, you know, I usually wash all my things, but there are some times where I'm like, let's just put this in. I've never put my cutting board in there, though.

A (42:27)

Yeah, it will, it will crack. And then not to get me started on dishwashers, but most dishwashers have a lot of plastic components on the inside. All the pods have a plastic wrap on them. And so oftentimes, I mean, this is true of sponges as well and probably soap. So, you know, you got to kind of ensure it's all, all clean. But a lot of times plastic can kind of like leach onto the products within the dishwasher. As well.

B (42:52)

At this point, you're convincing me to live on an island without any clothes on and without where I just have to hunt for my own food and just cook it on a rock with fire. Okay, so let's keep moving on. You talked about induction stoves. We talked about all of that. How to cook. Gas stoves are a separate toxin problem. The fumes released during cooking. Is this induction shift something you'd recommend universally?

A (43:21)

So I'm not an air expert, but from what I know, you know, gas leaches, VOC, benzene, carbon monoxide, etc. And, you know, I think it's really important for anyone cooking if you're using gas to leverage your, you know, your hood, have a kind of air purification system in the home. Induction is phenomenal. For whatever reason, the US Just hasn't really adopted induction, but it is a phenomenal kind of cooktop that is safer to use. I actually personally like cooking on gas. I feel like I get a better cook and I'm controlling my environment with the products that I'm using in it. But I do think we are at a place where making the shift is really smart. I know some cities are starting to put in some regulation around new builds, have to have induction. And so the more that we can introduce that into the home, it should, in theory, help, you know, provide an environment where the air is cleaner.

B (44:24)

Now, I want you to give us a full kitchen audit. So if we were to. If you. Let's pretend you're. You're on a TV show, right, and you have to walk in, this is actually a really good idea, by the way. Nobody steal it. But if you walk into somebody's kitchen and you were to do an audit, and you had a budget, right, and the production studio said, okay, you've got a $2,500 budget, or is that too high? Let's just bring it down to $1,000 budget. How would you do this audit? What would you look for? First?

A (44:59)

I'd start with the basics. So, number one, if you don't cook, maybe you don't need to replace the cookware. But if you do cook frequently, I'd start with your cookware, your food storage, your cutting boards and utensils. Those are the. The big ones within the kitchen. One of the things that's one of the most dangerous in the kitchen is your coffee maker.

B (45:19)

Oh, I don't have one. I get my coffee out.

A (45:22)

Most. Most Americans are consuming coffee multiple times a day. And if you're using just a standard drip coffee maker, you're running water through heat and plastic. And so I would recommend using a French press or a pour over. So those are kind of the common countertops products I'd look at. And then getting a really good water filtration system. Some of the better ones are more expensive. You know, if you can't put one under the sink, just get a classic, you know, pitcher. Make sure it's glass and that the filter is not made with plastic, because many of them are. And then some type of kind of air purifier in the kitchen. So it sounds like a lot, but amongst five or seven products, you can really get to a cleaner home. And there are products within the market at all price points. So depending on your budget, you know, there's a lot of great options for glass. Tupperware and glass. Sorry. And wood utensils on the cheaper end. And same thing with, you know, water filtration and air.

B (46:22)

So I. I love that because I think that it becomes affordable when you. When it. When you make it a process. Right. So I started with the caraway. It's like the big fry pan.

A (46:35)

Yeah.

B (46:36)

Okay. I don't know the correct neighbors. You've got a small one, but then you got a big one. Right. And that was able to do everything for me. I just started with one, just this one. Right. And I use the blue. Mine's the blue color. Trying to represent Greece in some way. But yeah, I just used that one. And then I decided to adopt, like, the full set. Right. You've got the pots, and it comes in like a. An actual set that you can buy all at once. And then I did the cutting board. So it wasn't like this whole, like, go on the website and just get everything. It was a progression over time because it's a lifestyle. What I haven't gotten, I don't know if you guys have it. I need, like, new sets of knives now. You've just reminded me about my. My knives. And maybe I don't know what they're coated in, but like. Like steak. Do you guys do steak knives?

A (47:20)

We don't do steak knives. We have just chef knives and all of that. Yeah, Knives are typically safe. They're made with stainless steel blades. Most do have plastic handles. There are metal options on the market. There's not a huge risk of leaching unless you're, like, cutting the handles or something like that. But generally safe for the most part.

B (47:43)

What is your dream product to create?

A (47:45)

I'd say my dream product, it's probably more of a system, is ever since Having kids. So we've got two, a six month old and a two year old. The whole kind of kids industry is just all plastic and silicone. And so we've had a really hard time. And granted there are some options out there, but using glass bottles and metal dinnerware, but most of it's really ugly, it's cheap, typically the underside silicone, so there still could be leaching. And so I think one area that I'm really excited for and you know, whether it's Caraway or other brands developing, is just safer kitchenware and tools for, you know, kids. And so it's a really exciting area to kind of see developing. I know folks who make their baby food at home. Most of those devices are all plastic. And so I feel like that's one area that's majorly underdeveloped and, you know, has a big opportunity and, and at this point, I've been consuming plastic and pfas my whole life and I'm making as many changes as I can. But hopefully for my kids and the next generation we can do a bit better there. And it's not rocket science to know what to do there. It's really just avoiding plastic and silicone and really shifting more towards metals and glass and materials like that.

B (49:13)

I had a physician on the podcast two weeks ago and it was about. She was an immunologist and she said something crazy. She taught me something crazy about black plastic. Do you know where that comes from?

A (49:26)

Yeah, so it's. Black plastic is just nylon, which is what's used mostly in kitchen utensils.

B (49:31)

Yes. I have black knives, by the way. But she said that you. It's broken down from like. I don't know how she mentioned it, but it was so revolting to me that I was really scared when she told me that how they make black plastic and how toxic it is. And then she's like, do you have a blender at home? I said, well, yeah, I make smoothies, my protein smoothies. She's like, yeah, what's the color of the blender at the bottom? I said, well, it's a glass blender, but at the bottom it's. It's black. She's like, well, that's toxic. I said, well, I don't think they can make a glass propeller. Right. But she was telling me about all, you know, black plastic. And then you think about Chinese. If you go out and eat Thai, right? Or if you get it delivered right, it's delivered in the black container. And that's like another scary thing.

A (50:14)

It's hard to avoid. So most takeout containers are all plastic. And I think the scariest thing is when you're putting hot food into it because that's when plastic starts to melt and leach. You know, when you're going to the grocery store, even most cans are lined with plastic on the interior. You want to look for glass jars. It's a whole like epidemic. It's just everywhere, you know, your shampoo containers, your dish soap and you know, I think fortunately there's a lot of amazing young brands now who have alternatives. And you know, it's just when you're going to the store, making sure you're making that, you know, thoughtful and right decision for you. Again, you don't have to start all at once. It can be daunting.

B (50:57)

It's a lifestyle. It takes time. I really wanted to ask you this just as we're closing. You started this. You started caraway because of one scary night with a Teflon pan. If you could go back and tell your pre caraway self one thing about what was actually in the average American kitchen, what would it be?

A (51:20)

I think it's that toxins are just hidden in plain sight. They're kind of all around us in all areas of the home. And caraway was born out of an experience to help try to provide an alternative for cookware. But our mission has really grown and looking across the home and kitchen, there's just so many cheap synthetic materials that exist. And so I think going back I probably didn't realize the mission that we were tackling and the opportunity. And to me it's again and choosing just cookware, food storage or cutting boards, it's a great start. But I think to create a non toxic home in a space that you really have peace of mind in, you really need to think about all that surround you.

B (52:06)

And I love what you're doing with the company and I love, at the end of the day, I love that it's so mission led and you live and breathe your mission and your product. So thank you so much for coming on and speaking with us today.

A (52:20)

Thank you for having me. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer@columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome. Columbia engineered for whatever.