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- [00:01]
A
Hey, y'. All.
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B
It's Brittani and Eric.
- [00:02]
A
And this past year, we have really missed being in you guys podcast feeds.
- [00:07]
B
And that's why we are so excited to say that our original podcast for Colored Nerds is relaunching with all new episodes.
- [00:15]
A
If you've been missing your weekly dose of black culture from the two of us, worry no more. We will be dropping new episodes in the For Colored Nerds feed every Tuesday from here on out.
- [00:26]
B
As a thank you for rocking with us for so long, here's one of our first new episodes.
- [00:30]
A
We hope you like it.
- [00:43]
B
Hi, I'm Eric.
- [00:44]
A
And I'm Brittany.
- [00:45]
B
This is For Colored Nerds, the weekly
- [00:48]
A
show where we peel back the layers of black culture that we rarely discuss in mixed company.
- [00:54]
B
This week, we're talking about the final season of Insecure and one of the most divisive characters on tv, Lawrence. Yes, Lawrence. And we're going to talk to the actor who plays him, Jay Ellis.
- [01:06]
A
We're chatting with Jay about how the character of Lawrence came to be Lawrence's epic blowout with Condola, and whether Lawrence has finally, after all this mess, grown up.
- [01:22]
B
All right, y'. All. After five seasons, Insecure, the game changing show about friendship, love, and figuring it out in LA from creator Issa Rae, is in its final season. Wow. Can't believe it.
- [01:33]
A
Can't believe it. The ensemble show revolves around Issa Dee and her circle of friends and lovers. And while the core friendship between Issa, Molly, Kelly and Tiffany has been the show's emotional center and and driver of the plot, it's the romantic entanglements of Issa and Molly that repeatedly set Twitter, Instagram, and group chats all over the world aflame.
- [01:57]
B
And no character has drawn more of that ire and praise than Lawrence Walker. Excuse me, Martin Lawrence Walker, to be exact. Played by breakout star Jay Ellis, Lawrence
- [02:11]
A
is without a doubt the most divisive character on Insecure. His dating successes and failures have earned him a loyal fan base of black men who wish to see themselves in Lawrence. While a smooth 95% of everything else that Lawrence does on the show works black women's nerves.
- [02:31]
B
All right, so Britney, like, I'm curious if you had to crystallize why so many women, almost every single one, react to Lawrence with the rage of Just Like a Million Sons. Like, what is it about him?
- [02:46]
A
Okay, if I were to put on my therapist hat, I would say that Lawrence is emotionally immature, a bit self centered.
- [02:54]
B
He's.
- [02:54]
A
He's overly concerned with how he comes off to people as opposed to how he actually makes them feel. But to put it plainly, to quote Tasha, Lawrence's jilted co worker From Insecure Season 2, I'm gonna quote her when I say Lawrence is the definition of a fuck nigga who thinks he's a good dude. And I'm sorry, he has been terrorizing the women of LA county for far too long.
- [03:22]
B
I would tell you, Tasha was so poetic, you know, taking like, all of that into account, I do have to say, like, there's something a bit refreshing about Lawrence's characterization. Like, he doesn't just skate by, you know, he isn't just a terror. I think this show has really kind of forced Lawrence to deal with the consequences of his actions. You know, a little late, but he deals with them, you know, which has made room for a lot of growth for this character. Now, look, I gotta put this out there. I am not what you would call a member of Lawrence Hive. You know, they are kind of on some other shit. They blindly love Lawrence, you know, no matter what he does. But I am a fan of Lawrence's growth, which we've seen a lot of this season.
- [04:08]
A
Mm, very true. Very true. And I think that also speaks to how lovingly Issa Rae, Insecure showrunner Prentice Penny and the writers on Insecure depict black men on the show. Like, whether we're watching Lawrence, Derek, Chad, or the Yoda, there's, like, a real diversity to the black men that we see on screen.
- [04:28]
B
Absolutely. And in my opinion, Lawrence is one of the most dynamic black male characters of the prestige television era. I will say it. And even if he is hard to like at times, Extremely hard to like at times, I mean, everybody loves Jay Ellis, you know? You know, he's brought a, like, sensitivity and a depth to a character that could have easily been written off. Actually, like, literally written off and figuratively written off.
- [04:54]
A
It's true. And you really gotta be some kind of special to pull that off. So to find out just how Jay does it, we called him up and he told us all about his thoughts on Lawrence, what it's meant to play such a controversial character, and what's in store for the rest of Insecure's fit for.
- [05:14]
B
All right, y', all, we won't hold you any longer. Here is our conversation with Jay Ellis. How was Lawrence pitched to you? What did you initially see on the page for this character?
- [05:29]
C
Um, Lawrence wasn't pitched to me, but the reps that I had at the time were like, yo, it's an HBO show. You would be crazy not to do this. But I did have a homeboy. I always try to give him credit as much as I can, because I feel like executives, really good, sharp, smart executives who have great ideas so often go, like, unrecognized in this industry. And, like, they're so that they. They are the gate. The gatekeepers in a lot of ways. His name is Clarence Hammond. Clarence used to work at Will Smith's company, Overbook at the time, and an amazing executive. He called me. He was like, yo, have you read Issa's new pilot, Insecure? And I was like, nah, what is it? He was like, yo, you gotta check this out. It's a character in here that's perfect. And so little did I know. So I read it, and I immediately called my entire team. At the point, I was like, yo, I want to do this. Like, let's get to Issa. I met her once. We both won an Urban League award together. Like, now, mind you, I read it, and I was like, I am the world's best music producer on the planet. How would I not know this? So I was like, yo, I'm about to be Daniel. Because Lawrence was so small on the page, and, you know, the way that episode, the way that pilot ends, it feels like they're gonna. Like, that's the end of their relationship, and something could potentially. They could potentially come back to Daniel, right? So I was like, oh, this is what it is. Not this dude. So it wasn't really pitched to me in any way of, like, this is what's on the page. And I don't know. You know, I think Issa and Princess probably had a very clear idea of, like, what they wanted to do with him in season one, but I know there was nothing past that.
- [07:08]
A
Really?
- [07:09]
C
Yeah. So, you know, when I went into it, I went into it kind of thinking I was Jon Snow. I was like, yo, I'm gonna be here for the end. I'm gonna. I'm bringing all the stars back together. You know what I'm saying? Like, we gonna go out here and get these dragons, and we gonna burn it. We gonna burn it. Burn the city down. And little did I know, they were on the other side. You know, they were like, oh, this is where this character's journey ends in this show. And obviously, they built this beautiful kind of arc in season one where you see this dude kind of, like, pull it back together, and, like, his girl challenges him, is like, yo, like, what are you doing? Like, this is not who I want to be with. And that makes him go get the job. And then that makes him, like, want to do even better and, like, still get out there and interview. And then finally he gets the job, and now he got a haircut, and now he dressing a little bit better. And so you watch this whole journey with him, and I was like, oh, I know this dude. Like, I've been this dude. I've had homeboys who have been this dude. Some of my homegirls dated this dude. Like, I very much know this guy.
- [08:08]
A
At what point did you realize that, like, there was going to be more to Lawrence beyond the first season?
- [08:13]
C
I'm telling you, I never realized it. Like, for me, I'm literally like Game of Thrones when they killed the king in season one, Like, I was like. Like. Like, my whole. My whole mind was like, of course they not gonna kill the king. Like, he's the whole, they not gonna kill the king. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, we got all these other dynamics, but, like, they not gonna kill the king. That's a story in my mind. I do believe that you gotta be just dumb enough to do this job. You have to be. You have to believe in something that no one can see. Right?
- [08:52]
B
No one's seen it.
- [08:53]
C
No one's seen it. There's a faith that goes into this that is like, oh, I think I could be great at this, and I think this could be more. And I could see all these places where this character can go. But just because I can see it doesn't mean that Brittany can see it or Eric can see it or east and Princess. Maybe it wasn't even on their radar at the time, but in my mind, it was like, oh, this dude is going. He's gonna be here. Like, he's gonna go for a while. And then at the end of season one, you know, when. When you have that moment? I actually remember I got on a plane. I was at a film festival in India.
- [09:25]
A
Oh, wow.
- [09:26]
C
Yeah. And I. I left India and flew from Mumbai to, I think, Doha and airport. In Doha, the episode started, the finale of season one started, and I got on the plane, turned my phone off, and 13 hours later, I land in Los Angeles.
- [09:51]
B
And your world was different.
- [09:52]
C
The world.
- [09:55]
A
Wait, your phone must have blown up.
- [09:57]
C
Oh, my phone died before I left the airport. Before I left the airport, I had homeboys texting me from college, some of my teammates from college, some of my homeboys that I grew up with back home in Oklahoma, People I hadn't seen since my dad was in the Air Force. I lived in. I lived on, like, 20 different air forces based Air Force bases. I had people hit me I ain't seen since I was, like, five years old. My auntie talking about she gonna pray for me because the church done seen it, and now she gotta go see somebody at church. And then Twitter was obviously, as we know, like, black Twitter is a juggernaut. And so, like, Twitter had now all of a sudden, created all these hive memes right off the tail of lemonade. All of a sudden, I was seeing collages of, like, me, Martin, Malcolm, President Obama, like, all this stuff. And so I. It was in that moment where I was like, oh, my God, this is. You can't. You can't create that. I mean, you can't. Yeah, you can't plan for that. That is something that, like, it is. It is hitting people in a way that is making them react to something that they know. It is starting a conversation and is starting this fire that is making people, like, have this conversation about, like, relationships and masculinity and cheating and who's responsible and vulnerability and all these things. And at that point, it was like, yo, the train is on the track. You cannot stop it. And whatever our audience wants to make of it is what they're gonna make of it at that point, to that end.
- [11:26]
B
So, like, once, you know, season two, like, in between season one and season two, there's this massive reaction to that point. Like, the Internet was crazy. It was a wild time, you know, like, did you push for any changes where at that point, we were like, well, let me tell you what I see for Lawrence, you know, like, how much did you try to participate in the shaping of that character? Kind of after that moment, never once. And is that.
- [11:48]
A
Is that really.
- [11:49]
B
Yeah.
- [11:50]
C
For me, I realized that, like, this wasn't my story. Like, I wasn't gonna force Jay's view of who Lawrence was or what we should be talking about, because that's shaded by my own experience to a certain degree. Right. And this was supposed to be through the lens of Issa. Like, this. This is all Issa's story. It's Issa's creation. Issa Rae, as a person and as a creator and as a beautiful human being that she is. Like, this is her story and her creation. Number one, I am there to service that story the best I possibly can. Like, that is my job as an actor. I enjoy that. I love that I get to just dive in and just be a character. And, like, yeah, I question story beats because I want to know more and I want to Learn more. And I want to understand where, like, what were the conversations in the room and what are all the things that you guys thought of when you, you know, created some of these moments in some of these scenes in these arts, but, like, never was. I, like, you know, I think Lawrence should just, like, I don't know. I think he should have a threesome. Like, I never once wanted that, because then I feel like I'm tampering. I am trying to change someone else's story, and, like, that's just not who I am. Like, I am such a believer in, like, let's uplift storytellers. And, like, one of my jobs, one of my many passions and things that I love is to, like, help tell stories. And sometimes that service comes in many different ways. Sometimes it comes in writing, sometimes it comes to producing, sometimes it comes in acting. And, like. And sometimes it comes in directing. And in this particular job, it was as an actor.
- [13:22]
A
We've talked about sort of, like, how, like, unique Lawrence is, but, like, part of what makes him so unique is that, like, you know. You know, like, you said, like, you kind of never seen a character like Lawrence before, which is why you're excited to play him. And we agree there's, like, an authenticity and a real interiority to the character, his character as a black man that just feels, like, very true to life. Like, how much of yourself do you see in Lawrence?
- [13:51]
C
I'm a little bit more of a communicator than Lawrence. Like, I'm not. I'm in my head, but I'm also like, I'll let y' all know what I'm thinking. Like, so I think, like, I'm just a little bit more of, like, hey, so let's talk about this for a second. It might come off aggressive, but that's not how I mean it. But I just wanted to get this off my chest and have a conversation. And I think Lawrence, like, just didn't say a lot of stuff. And if he would have said some more stuff, maybe we wouldn't have had to watch that breakup. Maybe we would have never even been at that breakup. Maybe Issa wouldn't have stepped out, right? Like, if. If he would have just communicated a little bit more and used his words a little bit more. I think, you know, he might have. May. May have saved himself some heartache, but at the same time, he wouldn't grow up to be the man that he. He. He's on the road to becoming. I do think, like, in a lot of ways, like, I'm a I am very much like, a serial monogamous. Like, I. I very much like. I think Lawrence very quickly realized, like, yo, I'm not a playboy. Like, I can't be out in the streets. It's too much work. Clearly, I'm not doing it right for so many reasons. I am a relationship person. I think that's who I am as well. So I think, like, that was another touch point that I really understood. Lawrence. Yeah, I could homeboys a little bit more and get advice. I don't. I think I am the one who's often called. I am not the dude who calls and asks for advice. I talk. I will talk through a lot of things, but I won't necessarily be like, hey, what do you think about this? I just need your advice real quick. That's never been me, and it should be. I should do more of that.
- [15:29]
A
To that point, what do you feel like you've learned from Lawrence?
- [15:32]
C
Oh, man. Communication, I think. I think just because you have a narrative or a story between your ears in your head doesn't mean that the rest of the world has that same story. You know, there's this moment in season. I think it was in season two where he pulls up outside of the dunes and he doesn't text her. He, like, pulls his phone out to text Issa, and she's in. I think she's actually in the dunes and, like, sitting there by herself. You know what I mean? Same exact time. And, like, how crazy. How different would this story have been if he would have just sent that text message in that moment? You know what I mean? Like, so short and so fleeting, and, like, it is hard to find love. It is hard to find connection. Real talk, right? It is. It's hard to find, like, people that you ride or die for every single day. It is hard to find people that you want to spend the rest of your life with. It is hard to find, you know, whoever you're. Me. Us against the world is, like, it's hard to find that. And I think deep down, he knew that it was her, but for whatever reason, he couldn't express it and couldn't say it because he was afraid to be vulnerable. Because we dudes that we're not supposed to say that stuff. And we're not supposed to be vulnerable. We're not supposed to talk through our feelings. Right. We haven't normalized that enough yet. And so I think I learned, like, oh, I'm just gonna talk a little bit. I might say I feel 22 times. And you might be like, yo, you and your feelings. And I'll be like, yeah, but at least there's no confusion. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.
- [17:01]
B
For what's worth, it reminds me of this, like, lyric, this Mac Miller lyric where he's like, my regrets look, just, like, texts I didn't send.
- [17:07]
C
My regrets just, like, texts I didn't send.
- [17:12]
B
Yep.
- [17:12]
C
Come on. Good. Come on, man.
- [17:17]
B
So when we first meet Lawrence, like, you know, he's like. We say he's been unemployed. You know, he's not actually putting in, like, the work. He kind of maybe should be in the relationship. You know, he's mostly just on the couch. And, you know, like, as a viewer, you feel Issa's frustrations with Lawrence, but obviously, like, kind of looking back, Lawrence is also a pretty rare depiction of a black man, you know, living with depression. I'm curious, like, what was it like to get the opportunity to play a black man so obviously dealing with mental illness?
- [17:50]
C
It was great, man, because I think, like, I. I will say that, like, I. And I'm probably. Because it's probably partially, like, a generational thing, too, but I feel like I am from, like, that generation of, like, that last generation of folks where I feel like this young. Other generations under me, anyway, or who are younger than me do talk a little bit more about what they're going through. Like, I feel like I'm still in that generation where it's like, yo, nah, just up. You're gonna get through it. I'm fine. I'm good. It's all gonna be all right. Where, like, if I look back now, like, yeah, there was probably moments where I, like, was depressed a little bit. You know what I mean? But I didn't know how to vocalize those things or didn't know that there was someone in my life I could have talked to. And especially for some of my boys who I know were going through stuff, so many of my homeboys who went through crazy stuff and wouldn't. Were just spinning out and wouldn't vocalize what they were going through. Right? They were just behaving erratically or in whatever way they were behaving. And so it was very freeing in a lot of ways, man. It is. It is something that I think I will forever be proud of, because I don't know that I've ever seen. I just don't believe that that depiction has ever been on TV before, like, and maybe a few films, but, like, I just don't know that we've gotten to see a black man who, from the outside, at certain points anyway, looks like he has everything together or is aesthetically what, like, is appealing to some folks, but, like, has this shit going on inside him that is eating him up and kind of, like, you know, sidelining him and, like, strapping him to the couch, you know, it was. It was. It was amazing.
- [19:37]
A
It's interesting, too, because I think about, like, specifically the depiction of Lawrence, like, the things, like he was experiencing depression, but, like, from a lot of sort of, like, everyday life stuff. It wasn't like it was anything super dramatic. It wasn't like anything necessarily traumatic or outstanding had happened to him. Like, he was just going. He's just going through it, like, having a hard time kind of adjusting to adulthood, which is something that, like, I think especially maybe the last year and a half has really illuminated. But there's so many black men, so many black people that are. That are around that, like, 20s, 30s age that are, you know, feeling that very heavy. And so it's interesting, you know, to see him be depressed, but like, also just struggling with everyday life shit. And not necessarily something that was super melodramatic or something like that.
- [20:28]
C
Yeah. I mean, every day isn't traumatic for us as a people, but every day is filled with. Filled with microaggressions, right? Like, every day isn't necessarily traumatic, and every day isn't a big event, but every day has something in it that makes you go, man, like, again, yeah. All right? And then you still got to move on to that. You still got to go get gas to go to work. You still got to order lunch. You still gotta, like, you know, you still gotta do all. All the other stuff. And along the way, you get hit with another microaggression. Somebody in the Starbucks line overlooks you and looks at the next person, and it's like, you clearly. You know what I mean? It's just all these little things to your point that happen day in and day out that, like, you know, it's almost like death by a thousand paper cuts, right? It's like, you don't need. I don't need a big slice, but if you keep slicing me every single day.
- [21:23]
A
Yeah.
- [21:24]
C
Be beat up. I'm gonna be tired. My head's gonna hang a little bit, but at the same time, I'm still gonna get up and go do all the things I still got to go do. Right? And that is tough. And we. We all experience that, you know, and it is. I don't know. It is. I am forever grateful for being able to play a character who was a representation of that on a show that has been so important every single day. Like, it is. It is truly, like, an honor to be able to do that, because it feels like it's probably the closest character I'll ever play. Although I think in many ways, Lawrence is very different than me. Like, it is probably still the closest character I will ever play to me or to my experience.
- [22:16]
B
Next up, our conversation with Jade turns to the legion of fans who love, love Lawrence unconditionally. Lawrence Hyde.
- [22:24]
C
It was like, they gonna think I want a Grammy. They gonna think I want a Grammy. Like, literally, all black men pop champagne at the same time.
- [22:32]
B
That and more coming up after the break. You know, I'm not sure I have seen black men so collectively rally around a TV character. Like, I've seen with Lawrence. Like, seriously, it was like this group of people, massive group of people, found so much of themselves in Lawrence, you know, myself included, at small. At certain times. Yeah, certain times, you know, that they needed him to become almost like the best veterans version of, like, of themselves. I'm curious, like, for you as the actor, like, what was it really like watching the way that people battled over the importance of Lawrence?
- [23:29]
C
I remember my homeboy called me after the finale of season one, and he was like, on a Tuesday. He called me on a Tuesday afternoon at like, 4pm in LA, so 6pm where he's from. And he was like, yo, me and my girl ain't talked in two days, and they're married and they've been together. So it was. They've been together. Like, they're married and been. Been together for a minute.
- [23:52]
A
So it was like.
- [23:53]
C
To me, that was so telling. Like, it's crazy, man. I don't know that I could ever really explain it. And I. You know, the one thing that I'll say is, like, I do wish I could go back and relive some of those moments and just have been, like, even more present and more immersed in them, even more than what I was and more than what we were together as a cast. Because, you know, I think we feel like we get beat up in every direction to all of a sudden see the dude who, like, got beat up, but then it's like, getting back up and like, yo, I'm gonna do it. And then he gets knocked down again in the coldest way possible by his girl, and then, like, has the redemption, right?
- [24:32]
A
The redemption.
- [24:35]
C
He's gonna claim his time, if you will. You know what I'm saying? It was such a. Like, hey, we here and we not going nowhere and we gonna get back up and we gonna be the best versions of ourselves. And then it's you youu know, it's so many good dudes out here who day after, they just get up and they do it and they do it over and over and over and over again and get no recognition, but constantly get the other end of it, right? They get the micro slights and all that stuff all the time. And I think to your point, like, all of a sudden there was this collective group like, hey, that's me and this dude. This dude better win for all of us right now. Because I'm out here doing it. I'm doing it good. But I'm not But I'm getting slighted. I'm not getting what I should be getting. And that, I think just rang true for so many. For so many people. Yo, it was like it was like black men won a championship.
- [25:26]
B
Dead ass. It was literally like, oh, man, like Obama just got elected. Like, literally. It was just everybody was in the streets.
- [25:35]
C
They gonna think I won a Grammy. They gonna think I won a Grammy. Like, literally all black men pop champagne at the same time. Like, it was oh, my God, it was wild. It truly was wild.
- [25:47]
A
You're not even exaggerating, though. Like, there were so many clips on social media of. I mean, like, it looked like a Holyfield fight. The way that people would be crowded in front of the television, hooting and hollering and stuff like that. And I'm like, you know, I mean, I respect that Lawrence came back. I respect that Lawrence bounced back. Because I think as a human being, we all, some of us have been on that, on the Lawrence side of the equation, you know what I'm saying? Where it's just like, okay, I gotta get back in the game. But yeah, your hive, though, the hive, the Lawrence hive, They're on the next level.
- [26:22]
C
I'll say it is. The mobilization is like, it's impressive. I mean, we can march into a few states and get some stuff right. I mean, no, but it has truly been amazing to like, I don't know, like to to know that that I've been able. I've been fortunate enough to play this character that so many men responded to. So many. And not just men, like women too, but, like, it is, as a black man, it is this, like, I have this overwhelming feeling of gratitude to have had the honor, like, the gift of being able to play this guy. Because I just know what it's. I mean, I worked retail. Like, I wasn't the Best Buy dude. I was the Steve Madden dude. You know what I mean? Like, I know what it's like to be in those shoes. And I know how many of my boys and how many people I pass every single day when I walk in somewhere who are in the middle of that journey. You know, I definitely don't take it lightly. Although I joke about it. Like, I don't take take it lightly that, like, he was, you know, a representation that for a lot of black men and they were getting to see themselves on screen and see someone somewhat like them, even if it was just some. A few moments or. You know, I say this all the time. Like, I think the next closest thing is Earn in Atlanta. And I don't say closest thing because I think Donald has done an absolutely amazing job, clearly. But, like, Earn is the only other character that you probably could say is very. That feels similar to, like, somebody you know, or somebody you've been yourself, you know.
- [28:00]
A
You know, to that idea about sort of like, Lawrence being in his core, like a regular guy. Something I think is really interesting with his character is that, like, I feel like when typically, when you see a quote, unquote, successful, educated black man on TV with a good job, he's always, like, dominating at the highest level. And what I found really interesting and insecure is that even after Lawrence finally, like, lands what seems like his dream job, you know, he gets out of Best Buy and is able to get sort of like that startupy, you know, super polished, exciting, you know, shiny job, we see him kind of struggle to live up to that boss narrative, talk to us about, like, why it was important and maybe even unique to see Lawrence face professional challenges. And also, like, even beyond professional challenges, like, to sort of try to see himself as fitting in, fitting into, like, a working environment, as opposed to, like, being the absolute best at what he did unequivocally all the time.
- [29:03]
C
There is a narrative, I think, that has been put out there that has, like, falsely placed all this pressure on us in a lot of ways that, like, we have to be perfect all the time. And, like, just like, black excellence doesn't necessarily mean that everything is perfect all the time, right? Like, Lawrence, Molly and Issa are all examples of black excellence in their own way, right? And I think I feel like before Lawrence got that job, like, his reading list was, like, how to Run the Office, being a boss at the level. Holly read, like, three of Diddy's biographies.
- [29:35]
A
40 laws of power.
- [29:37]
C
40 laws of power. You know what I'm saying? Like, he 100% like, I feel like, read that. But it creates this narrative that, like, that means you got to walk in and, like, kill it. And, like, while we do hold ourselves to a higher standard and we, because we have always have to work so much harder to get half as much. Like, it doesn't mean that it's going to happen the way you expect it to happen. It doesn't mean it's going to be bumpy. It doesn't mean that there are systemic things in the workplace that are going to get in your way. And it's. How do you. How do you navigate all of those things that you did not plan for and are hitting you every single day in a new way? And so I think, you know, watching that journey, for me, I always look at it and go like, oh, Lawrence had a vision, and the vision was great, and the vision was beautiful. And the problem is the vision didn't account for, like, any slight or major, like, changes, right? Like, the vision was like, he was so locked in and so myopic to the thing he wanted. It didn't account for all the, like, environmental factors, right, that could come along the way and shake it. And so then you had no response to all those things. So then all of a sudden, you feel like you're, like, in quicksand, and you're just like, yo, can I just find some sure footing somewhere? And I think that is a lot of what Lawrence is going through, and I think that's a lot of, like, what it is when you walk into a workplace where you are one of, like, right, you have the narrative, you have the vision of what you think it's going to be and how you're going to dominate in the space. But then you get in there, you're like, oh, whoa, whoa. I. All these things are coming at me that I wasn't expecting. I just. Can anybody throw me a life preserver, please? You know what I'm saying? And I think that is real. And I think Molly, I think, is also a perfect representation of that in her own office, right? And both her first law firm and the primarily white law firm she worked in, as well as in Hayward. I think that is also a very clear thing of, like, oh, it is not always how you expect it to be. It doesn't mean that it still can't be great and it still can't be amazing, but it's just a different version of it.
- [31:38]
B
It's a different path.
- [31:39]
C
A different path. Yeah.
- [31:40]
B
So it's time for the spoiler alert, because we're gonna. We gotta talk about season five, episode three, Pressure. Okay. So, you know, it's revealed that Condola, who's played, honestly, amazingly, by Christina Elmore, is pregnant and Lawrence is the father. So, you know, at first they agree to keep living separate lives, but in season five, after their son is born, Lawrence decides he wants to be a parent. He wants to be an active parent. And so what results is this really thoughtful and introspective episode where we see Lawrence and Condola, like, really try to, like, work it out. And there are some scenes in this episode like, y' all are acting like it is just doing the thing. And honestly, the performance, it was exciting just to really get to watch you kind of, like, lead that performance. I'm curious, like, talk to us about what this episode means for Lawrence and, like, what it meant to you to, like, play him at this point, you know, in his arc.
- [32:36]
C
Yeah. I mean, so much is at stake for him here. I think, again, goes back to that vision. He's built this vision of what fatherhood is in his head and how he is going to be a father. And he's built a vision of, like, how they're going to co parent. The problem is he never expressed that vision to Gola and then also never asked for her take on how they're going to do it and what she thinks about it. Right. He was just like, yo, it's going to be like this. And, you know, you applaud him for, like, you don't applaud him. It's what he was supposed. It's what he's supposed to do. I think it's like, oh, God, thank God he didn't choose to not be in the life. Like, okay, cool. He's going to be in the baby's life. Okay, Lawrence, we got you. Okay, now we gotta. Then you're like, yo. But that's not how to do it. Like, wait a minute. You just went down the wrong road. Like, you going to. You driving out the wrong way right now, bro. The car is going in the wrong direction. And so I think for me, it's really interesting, like, that this whole episode for me is so much about, like, realizing that just because you had a vision of something and it is going to be slightly different or altered or the route to the journey, rather to the vision that you had is going to be slightly different, does not mean that the vision is not still as beautiful or as important wherever you ultimately land. Right. And so I look at that episode and I go like, oh, Lawrence has To at some point say, what's more important here? The thing that I'm trying to force and make happen my way from hundreds of miles away while I'm sitting by myself in this big empty apartment, like, in this. With a crib that this baby is never going to see and all these baby's never going to see. Or is it about figuring out how to do this with her and making the best life for this child and being the best parent I can be for this child. And then I still get my vision of being a good father. And I still. Right. Like, that, to me, is like so much what this episode is about for him is like getting out of his own way, realizing that he's in his own way and therefore in the way of Condola and also in the way of Elijah. And then being a father for Elijah. And by the way, Christina Elmore, national treasure, like, truly, I don't know, stepped
- [35:02]
B
into it, killed it.
- [35:03]
C
I don't know if I could have done those scenes with anybody else. Like, she was such a joy, such a pleasure. She brought some stuff that literally, I was like, oh, oh, okay. Oh, oh. I didn't know that we were at Masterpiece Theater. Thank you, Christina. She just brought some stuff that, like. I mean, she made me a better actor. I think, you know, over the course of these three seasons, she's made me a better actor. And especially I think, you know, in that scene in her kitchen where we blow up at each other, where Lauren blows up at her. Like, I think I would have never been able to get there if it wasn't for her.
- [35:40]
B
I don't trust you.
- [35:44]
C
Are you fucking serious, Condola? Stop acting like I'm a fucking stranger. I'm his father.
- [35:48]
B
You're barely ever here and you never check in. Not about his swimming or food.
- [35:52]
C
And you don't even give me more
- [35:53]
B
than three hours notice when you're not coming.
- [35:54]
C
I have a job.
- [35:56]
A
My fiance and I watched that together. He was just like. There was. I forget specifically what Lawrence said, but the inflection, the way you specifically said it, I think you were, like, standing near the fridge or something like that in her kitchen and turned around at one point, he was like, oh, like the tension between you two had us. But we knew it was a TV show when y' all were acting, but we kind of forgot for a couple seconds, like, y' all had us for real.
- [36:23]
C
Most people don't remember it's a TV show. Some people.
- [36:27]
B
Yeah.
- [36:28]
C
With their friends. Like, they think they in condolence kitchen watching. And I know I'm gonna get cussed out for weeks after that episode.
- [36:36]
B
Rest in peace to your mentions.
- [36:39]
C
I believe that if you're not mad at Lawrence, then I didn't do my job. If you don't cringe when he says that stuff, when he says, like, I'm gonna be with my son, whatever it takes, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to be with my son. Like, if you don't cringe and be like, no, bruh, no. You know, and I didn't honor the writing and hopefully, you know, I don't know how many people watch our show, to be honest with you. I've never asked. But however many people it is, if I truly hope they all like, yo, cut his head off, throw him in the rib, put the mitt on his feet. Like, just dispose of the body however you need to. I hope they. Because it means that I did my job, but it also means that, like, if we do our jobs right and if the story is serviced right, hopefully the journey will be so much more worth it when you get to the back end of the series.
- [37:35]
B
So, I mean, to that end, watching this was honestly really powerful for me. For what's worth, I'm a father and a co parent as well and, you know, come to it very differently. But, you know, I saw a lot of truth kind of in just, like, how much Lawrence's idea of fatherhood clashes, you know, with his life. There's a bit of, like, re evaluation, you know, that, like, you have to do. And I also thought it was just kind of beautiful, at least at the end, seeing him turn towards those challenges, you know, because of his son. And, you know, we know that you, you know, not too long ago, became a father yourself.
- [38:12]
A
Congrats.
- [38:12]
B
I'm curious, like, what. What things were present with you as you were filming that episode?
- [38:19]
C
That was crazy, man. We started that episode. We had a family emergency on my side, and my fiance. Thank you. My fiance ultimately had to go leave to take care of her mother, who was terminally ill. And I had the baby for a few weeks by myself, which I was like, oh, I'm great at this. I can handle it all. That little girl wore me out. She wore me out. And then Christina had just had her second kid right before we started. And so I actually ended up getting this time while with my daughter where it was just me and her. And then I took her over to be with my fiance while she was taking care of her mom. And so I was actually by myself in LA for like, three and a half Months without not seeing my daughter, who I had now been locked in the house with for a year and a half straight, right? Like, every single day, I'm up under her and she up under me, right? And so all of a sudden, I was going through these withdrawals. So it was really interesting, I think, like, that episode for me, I think there was like, some, like, a lot of stuff that was just going on where, like, because I was alone because of this family emergency, like, it very much ended up on screen, I think, in a lot of ways. Like, I think a lot of that loneliness and a lot of that, like, wanting to be there but not being able to be there. And. And. And, like, also, like, I was, like, buying toys and, like, buying stuff where, like, you know, I. I didn't know how long this family emergency was going to last, right? So, like, I was away from her buying all this stuff where it's like, she might not play with it. By the time she get back, she may not even want this stuff. She might be too big for it. And so that was a really. So there were some things that were very. In a very weird, odd way, like, running concurrently, like, in my life as well as. As well as in Lawrence's life. And I think also I shot a lot of that episode alone. You know, most of that episode, I'm not with Christina. I'm by myself. So I was on set by myself, which normally, like, you're in there with a bunch of actors, so we all doing bits all day long. And we're doing. Did you see the meme? And did you see the thing we talking about news stories? And, like, why did he say that? Like, he should just. Right. We're constantly, like, getting energy from each other and playing off each other. And all of a sudden, like, I was on set by myself for a week straight, actually. I think it was literally, like, four days straight of all the San Francisco stuff by myself, which was very lonely and very quiet and very, like. Right. And so, like, not only I'm thinking about, you know, Lawrence not being with Elijah, but wanting to be with Elijah, but then also prepping for all the things when Elijah comes, even though Elijah was never gonna come to San Francisco because he was in his. Again, living this whole fantasy in his head of what it was gonna be like while all that is happening. I'm actually sitting here by myself on set, and then I'm going home, and I'm by myself because my girl and my baby are gone. So it was a very. It definitely, like, was this very Rich episode where I think a lot of, like, there was some weird, like, meta stuff in a lot of ways that was happening with that episode. What it made me realize is, like. It's like, I'm like that Vivian Green song. I'm like, get right back to my babe. Gotta hear. I'm like, yo, where's my daughter? I'm gone. I'm on the plane. I'm out. I want to be with her. I'm going to be under. Oh, yeah.
- [41:45]
A
Oh, no.
- [41:46]
C
We.
- [41:46]
A
We definitely felt it through the screen. It was. It was like, I. Well, I guess by the time this comes out, people will have just seen it. But, you know, we were fortunate to be able to watch this a little ahead of time. And, like, the anticipation, waiting for people, like, the excitement that. That I feel like, waiting to talk to people about this. It's. I think people are really gonna respond to it. Like, it. The. That episode. I mean, I think everything that we've seen so far the first season, but that episode specifically speaks to not just the growth in the character, but the growth of the series and also the growth of the audience. Like, there's so many more viewers who are going to be able to relate to something like that. And I'm just excited. I'm really excited about this season to see where things end up. But to that end, I keep, like, Eric and I keep training that phrase back and forth. But speaking of this season, what can we expect for the rest of the season? Any clues, breadcrumbs, fingerprints, needle and haystack? Anything. Anything you want to offer.
- [42:50]
C
I will say that this season is. It's a rollercoaster, man. It's a lot of ups and downs, and I know every season is that. And so I hate to give something that feels like such a generic answer, but I really feel like this season is about these characters kind of becoming the people we wanted them to be when we first met them. I feel like Lawrence has been, like, constantly a meme of that Tyra Banks meme of, like, we were all rooting for you. Yes, that's.
- [43:25]
B
That is accurate.
- [43:27]
C
Molly has been that at times. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like we've all been that mean and for all three of these characters. And I think, like, who Tyra Banks was rooting for in that moment, I think, is who these characters are going to become. You know what I'm saying? I think it's like, finally we're getting to who they're supposed to be, but it's gonna be bumpy, and it's gonna be messy because that means that they have to accept some things about themselves that they probably weren't ready to do, you know, and. And probably have been dodging for a little bit, right? And probably have to, like, have some, like, reflection and introspection on. Like, oh, why did I go through all of that? And, like, why did I put myself through all of that? I can't keep repeating it, which means I need to change now, and I need to be, you know, the person that I. That I want to be. Flaws and all, because these characters don't, you know, these characters won't write off perfect. Like, you still going to be like, I don't understand why he did. Why she did that. Like, you're still going to. But that's humans. Like, we're messy, and, like, even in our. Even at our best, we still have mess. And I think that's what you're going to see with these characters. And I think, like, you know this love story of, like, Issa and Molly, right? Like, what is. Like, I think my hope is that, like, we fulfill what everyone. I don't even know that I would say what. What they want it to be as much as, like, what everyone has seen glimpses of, right? When you think about, like, your own best friends and the people who've been in your life for a really long time and those good moments and those low moments, and then the moments when you come back together because you realize, like, y' all were being petty or whatever it is. Like, I think I. I hope that we, like, we hit all those moments for folks, and even in the, like, relationship stuff, the work stuff for each of these characters, Like, I hope we hit those moments and really make people feel like, oh, it's okay if they ride off into the sunset. Like, I'm good with how this. I'm good with where they're at now. I would love more, but I don't need more. Yeah.
- [45:33]
B
Well, Jay, seriously, it's been, like, such a pleasure, like, one talking to you, but also watching this last season at Fortsworth. I agree. It's watching the show come into its own way. Like, Brittany was even saying this. It's crystallized into that vision of, oh, right, we're doing the thing. We are here. And so it's just really been a pleasure to watch your journey and the show's journey.
- [45:59]
C
Thank you. I appreciate y', all, man. Thank you for watching.
- [46:01]
A
Thank you.
- [46:03]
C
I just. Just stick with Lauren. It's going to be bumpy, but just.
- [46:10]
B
I have hope. Just.
- [46:12]
C
Yeah.
- [46:22]
B
For Colored Nerds was created by me, Eric Eddings, and Britney Loose. It's supported by a production team at Stitcher, including producer Alexis Williams, Willis Arnold, and executive producer Camille Stanley. Casey Holford is our technical director and Peter Clowney is head of content. Our theme music is by Willie Green and look, y', all, if you've been missing us from your feed and like what you just heard, go ahead and subscribe to For Colored Nerds. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we'll be dropping new episodes every Tuesday.
- [46:51]
A
You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram @4 colored nerds to stay up to date on the show and everything else we've got going on.
- [46:59]
B
Thanks for sticking with us all this time. We love y' all so much. We're so glad to be back and we've got so much more amazing stuff
- [47:06]
A
planned, so go ahead and subscribe. Like, go over. Subscribe. Meet us on the other feed. We'll see you there on the other side. Just come on over.
- [47:16]
B
It's warm over there. We've got blankets, hot cocoa.
- [47:20]
A
All right, we'll see you guys soon.
- [47:22]
B
See you later.