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- [00:01]
Party Host
All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Bartesian Bartesian. It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe margarita?
- [00:21]
Thirsty Guest
I'm thirsty.
- [00:21]
Party Host
Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow.
- [00:26]
Thirsty Guest
Beginning to feel more seasonal in here already.
- [00:28]
Party Host
If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.
- [00:40]
Thirsty Guest
Tis the season to be jollier.
- [00:44]
Bartesian Advertiser
Add some holiday flavor to every celebration with the sleek, sophisticated home cocktail maker Bartesian. Get $50 off any cocktail maker@bartisian.com cocktail that's B A R T E S I N.
- [01:03]
David Cummings
From the silence.
- [01:08]
Podcast Intro Voice
From the.
- [01:08]
Podcast Host
Darkness.
- [01:12]
David Cummings
From your nightmares from the Void Tales from the Void the Behind the Scenes Podcast welcome back to Tales from the Void behind the Scenes podcast. I'm David Cummings, host of the no Sleep podcast and one of the executive producers of Tales from the Void. Joining me on this episode is Rebecca Klingle, known to fans of the Nostli podcast by her pen name, CK Walker. Rebecca has crafted many of our most popular horror stories. To list them all here would take too much time, but some of her best include room 733, Whitefall, Borrasca, the Things We See in the woods, and her very first story on the podcast, Betsy the Dollar. It was that story, Betsy the Doll, which was adapted for the screen by showrunner Francesco Loschiavo. Into the episode we've titled Plastic Smile, Rebecca and I will discuss her origins into horror writing and how her career has taken her from posting stories online to living and working in Hollywood as one of Mike Flanagan's writing collaborators on projects like the Haunting of Hill House, the Haunting of Bly Manor, and the Fall the House of Usher.
- [02:55]
Podcast Host
We'll also talk about Plastic Smile and.
- [02:58]
David Cummings
How it felt seeing an early story of hers come to the screen after so many years. And so join me as we delve into the dark world of the Void.
- [03:15]
Podcast Host
Rebecca Klingle, welcome to Tales from the Void behind the Scenes podcast. We're here with you today to talk about the episode Plastic Smile, based on your story Betsy the Doll. It's coming out on October 27, right before Halloween thank you so much for being with us on the show.
- [03:33]
Rebecca Klingle
Thank you. I love to be in the behind the scenes, under the floorboards type area of production. So I'm very excited as well.
- [03:41]
Podcast Host
Exactly. Under the floorboards. Now, Rebecca, you've written so many classic no Sleep tales, and we've had the privilege of featuring so many of them on the no Sleep podcast. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say pretty much every story of yours that we've done has been a big hit with our audience. And so let people know a little bit about yourself. How did you get into writing in the first place? And more specifically, what drew you into writing horror stories?
- [04:07]
Rebecca Klingle
Yeah, you know, I think really growing up, I lived in kind of a fantasy world. I was always reading. I was staying up late after. I shouldn't. Like, I was just a non stop kind of reader. And I learned to live. I don't know, maybe it's disassociation, really, but more in my head than in, I would say, real life. And then I also have always loved being scared. I've just. I've always been drawn to horror and fear and kind of the darker parts of life and human mortality and stuff like that. So I had decided that I was gonna write, like, the great American novel. And of course, it was during, you know, when Divergent and Hunger Games and all these, like, one special teenage girl is gonna save everybody kind of stuff was coming out. I was gonna write that book, and I think I was probably 80,000 words into it, and I just got sidetracked reading this subreddit, no sleep on Reddit one day. And I couldn't stop. And I loved it. And I decided, like, see, this is an achievable goal, unlike this giant book that was going to be a trilogy, because of course, it was what we were all doing back then. So I decided to start writing and uploading really short horror stories. And I fell in love with it. And like I said, very achievable goals. You know, it can take a day, an. A day, a couple of days, four, in the case of Borrasca, to write a horror story. But, yeah, I really, I fell in love with it. I love scaring people and I love when people scare me. So that's. That's really how I got into it. It was definitely my calling. I think.
- [05:38]
Podcast Host
I think that is safe to say you have definitely found your calling. You have just said something that so many people that I talk to share the experience of, whether it's. I was reading a Stephen King book or I watched the Exorcist or whatever it is. It's always when I was really too young. I have been reading those books or seeing those movies and there's just something about how people who end up in the horror genre in the field, they always seem to get their start by consuming horror content at a really early age. And it's fascinating. Do you ever think about that there are kids out there, 10 year old, 12 year old kids who are reading your stories. Would you encourage that? Or how do you feel about young people reading your stuff?
- [06:20]
Rebecca Klingle
Yeah, that's an interesting. What came first thing? Is it that we were watching and reading really disturbing stuff young because we were drawn to it, or is it we are drawn to it as adults because we were consuming it so young? And I'm not really sure. You know, I've seen Borrasca going around on TikTok and I'm seeing people saying, I read that when I was 12 or 13 and it stuck with me and I'm like, oh honey, no, I feel bad that you did that because it is such a dark ending to that story. But in the same breath, you know, I have a kid, a daughter, and we were watching horror movies from probably the time she was five or six. Nothing like too disturbing or gory, but just kind of enjoying together the fun of being scared by ghosts. So we'll see how it works out. But she's just turned 18 and she still very much loves horror. That's the thing with the Internet is that kids can access pretty much anything and there is some really dark stuff out there. But then they can also commiserate with everybody after they read it.
- [07:18]
Podcast Host
So Betsy the Doll was featured on the no Sleep podcast all the way back on season three. And I looked it up and it was in February of 20, so that's more than 10 years ago. What is it like to have an older story adapted to the screen after so much time has passed?
- [07:35]
Rebecca Klingle
You know, it's really interesting. I think I said before that it was the first horror story that I ever wrote, which is true. And I hadn't read it in a lot of years and then read it when this was in production. And it's really interesting because Betsy the Doll is never really on my mind anymore, obviously because it's been so long and I've written so much since then and it's a bit shorter, but so it's really fascinating to see someone find it and love it and believe in it and then have it changed and adapted by someone Else and kind of what about it scared them? Like, what are the themes that stuck out to them? And I think it's really neat to see somebody go in and do that and breathe new life into this story because I think most of what Betsy the Doll is, it's not particularly character driven, but it's really just about that twist. So you can change a lot of things and keep that twist in. And I think did just a wonderful job with it. But yeah, I love that it was 10 years ago that it was on the no Sleep podcast. That's really amazing. It was probably my first story on the no Sleep podcast.
- [08:40]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I think you're right. It probably was the very first one. And yeah, it's. When I look back over the list of stories of yours that we've done on the podcast, I mean, they're too numerous to mention, but there are just such classics. It remains at the top of my list of favorite stories is room 733. Then there's the Things We See in the Woods, Gray. And of course you've already mentioned Borrasca and then Whitefall. It's later than you think. We always love to see your stories as our big season finales, feature length productions as they were. Yeah, it's been a great relationship that we've had through adapting your stories. And of course this certainly is not the first time your writing has been adapted to the screen. You have had great success as a screenwriter on a lot of projects. Certainly that Mike Flanagan guy that you collaborate with a lot. Haunting of Hill House, Haunting of Blind Man, Fall of the House of Usher. So I know we'll be fascinated to know, how did you make that jump from posting stuff on Reddit and then publishing your own novels and now working in Hollywood and writing on these big productions?
- [09:44]
Rebecca Klingle
It's such a crazy story because that really came out of nowhere. I had never considered that I could write as a career because it seems really hard and really competitive. And you know, I just, I liked writing kind of whatever I wanted and uploading it to the Internet. And so I was working a corporate job at the time. I had put out probably 20 or 30 stories and I was a reasonably popular horror writer online. And Mike Flanagan had called me or perhaps emailed me, I can't really remember, and asked to option a couple of my stories, which I of course thought was amazing. So I said absolutely. And then it could have been six months to a year later he called again. And I thought it was going to be on this option. Maybe they were getting, getting and he asked if I wanted to come out and write on this show adapting Shirley Jackson's the Haunting of Hill House. So, of course, I said yes, definitely yes. And, you know, I went out there, no idea what I was doing. I had only written prose. I didn't have any screenwriting software. I'd never read a screenplay. You know, all of that, and very much Baptism by Fire. But it was such an amazing experience. And we collaborate a lot of times on no Sleep. A lot of the writers will get together and come up with some project, and we'll all write together, post stories together. And this was. That times, like a thousand. So I kind of went overnight from working in corporate America to working in Hollywood and having an agent and going on meetings and living there, and it was really incredible. But I've definitely had to learn on the go. And Mike has been so, so helpful with that, because I just. I love the way that he writes. I love the way that his screenplays read, you know? So I like to say that I feel like I learned from the. And I'm very, very lucky to have done that. And now I'm very comfortable in the role and writing screenplays and whatnot. But, yeah, it was very much an overnight thing, and I think it was really. The Things We See in the woods and Barraska were the two stories that he really liked. In mine, I believe that he found out about Borraska because of you and the podcast.
- [11:59]
Podcast Host
Actually, yes. Whenever I can. I always love to take credit for your career, for Mike's career. Haunting of Hill House. Yes. You know, it's all because of me, and everyone needs to be reminded of that. He says very much jokingly. But, no, it's great. It's nice to know that if I did play a molecule of a part in making that connection. That's very, very cool. And so now you have. You know, obviously we're talking about Tales from the Void, this new horror anthology streaming series. This is a series that, as I've already talked to Francesco and John and people who have brought this series to life, and we've talked a lot about how long this has taken. This is not something as much as you might talk about your career being this sort of overnight thing. This series has been ongoing for five, six years and so on. I was curious, like, when you were first contacted by, I assume, Francesco about using your story, was there a bit of skepticism there? Because I'm sure you get contacted a lot by people who are like, I want to narrate your story for a YouTube channel or a podcast or, hey, I want to make a film of your story. What was your first reaction to working with Francesco?
- [13:12]
Rebecca Klingle
You know, even though I wasn't doing anything with Betsy the Doll, it has this special place in my heart because it was the first thing I wrote and it did so well. It encouraged me to keep putting myself out there and putting these stories out there. So, you know, it has a very special place in my heart. And when I got the offer, or perhaps it was the email from Francesco, I was. I won't say I was dubious. It was more like I wanted to write it. You know what I mean? Like, if somebody was going to adapt it, I wanted it to be me, but I never asked. And I really love that, the way that it happened, because I was just like, you know, let's just let go. No, I'm not doing anything with this story. It's not like it's going to be some full length movie because the twist is too hard to hide for that long. And I really liked Francesco and I liked the energy that he had. And so I just kind of decided to say, like, Betsy the Doll, when it was birthed, was a leap off a mountain, because it does take a lot as, you know, as a creator, to put yourself out there and have people, anonymous people on the Internet, be able to comment on it and dissect it and criticize it. And, you know, with that one, I uploaded it and I let go and said, whatever's gonna happen, happens. And so it felt like the appropriate story to kind of be like, I mean, you've gone as far as you can with it. Let somebody else do something with it. And so when I heard, because before I read the script, I hear were attached, and I am such a big fan of theirs, and I was so excited about that. And I just knew it was in good hands. And then when I got the script, I was like, this is so good. I love it. It takes a step further than the story did, and I can't. I would not have been able to do any better than Francesco, who adapted it. So it really paid off. And I think the thing there is you got to take risks and trust and let go and see what happens. And I love the way this turned out. I'm so glad I did.
- [15:03]
Podcast Host
Oh, I'm glad to hear that. And that, yeah, that leads to my next question. So you have obviously had a chance to watch the episode and you've seen it come to life. And as you mentioned, Francesco wrote the screen adaptation for it. And so as you watched it, you're sitting there watching it on your tv. How did it feel for you? I mean, again, we've talked about. You've seen your writing on the screen before, but what was it about this particular episode? How did you react to.
- [15:28]
Rebecca Klingle
I really love the sort of whimsy of childhood that the episode had, whereas the original story didn't have any of that. It was very dark. There wasn't really any good parts of childhood to play against, and I think he did that very effectively. I really loved the tone of the episode. I loved. I mean, it's so weird seeing something you write become a film with actors and sets, and it's so different than what you picture in your mind. But then it's also so perfect. And I would say if it left me with one feeling, it was like, I really wish that I didn't know the spoiler in that story because I would have loved it to hit me organically. And I'm really excited for people to see that and have that experience, because that's the one thing, as creators, we can't have that. But I really loved it. I love the way it ended. Phenomenal episode. I was so happy.
- [16:24]
Podcast Host
Oh, that's great to hear. I'm curious because in your original story, we have this mother figure and this young daughter of hers. And the mother, I think, as you wrote it, my mother wasn't a bad person, just a victim of her addictions. And so we have this crack den, if you will, that they've grown up in. And in the story, the daughter grows up. She has a lot of baggage with her mother. But I feel like in this adaptation, there is a certain sympathy with the mother. She's not. I think it's a credit to Francesco as well that she's not just portrayed as this purely evil, you know, no good junkie type of thing that you. You can see there is love in her heart for her daughter. What did you want the audience to feel about the mother? Was it a little more nuanced, or was she just sort of the bad guy in the story?
- [17:15]
Rebecca Klingle
Yeah. You know, when I wrote the original story, I will say the mother was. I mean, she's a character. Yes, but she's more like a device to get the childhood, the environment that I needed to tell this story with Lauren. So, yeah, there was. You know, that's something that Francesca did very well, is add so much character depth. She's not just this, you know, evil crack addict that hates her daughter and, you know, is burdened by her daughter. And just wants to have these parties and have friends over and meet men. I think that there's just so much more depth and that makes the story so much better. You know, something the original story probably did was villainize parents who have these addictions as almost dehumanizing, you know, and that's not something that I want to do. It was, you know, it was written when I was younger. And I really like the way that Francesco went in it and how you could see that there was more to the mom than just, you know, addiction. I really appreciated the way that he brought that character.
- [18:18]
Podcast Host
And when I spoke with John and Toby, the directors of this episode, they really stressed that too, that, you know, it's way too easy to create black and white characters or good or bad characters that go right to the opposite ends of those extremes. And they even pointed out that the boyfriend in this story, who, again, someone dealing with addictions, struggling to, you know, what can they steal or sell to buy drugs. And yet even he is this. He's almost like this protector of the daughter because he's, you know, he seems to really care about her. And I think that the story is so much better when there is that nuance. And we can kind of relate to characters rather than just dismiss them as all good or all bad.
- [18:57]
Rebecca Klingle
I totally agree. I thought the boyfriend was a really interesting addition. And I did like that he was a bit protective over the main character. I thought that was really nice. Cause he wasn't in the original story. I mean, it's horrible and it's depressing, of course, but it's kind of a makeshift family. Nobody evil in this story. People are just suffering, and suffering begets suffering. And that's really the theme there.
- [19:23]
Podcast Host
That's a very interesting perspective. Yeah, everybody is genuinely suffering in that. And the young girl and the way she deals with it, the way she copes. Yeah, there's a great deal of connection that I think we have. And really with all of the episodes of this series, the thing that's really impressed me is that you could almost say we're going to take a story and adapt it to the screen as a creepypasta story. Those really kind of quick, breathless stories that just have a jump scare in it or something like that. But what I love about this series is that every episode features characters that are nuanced and that you care about. And it's really their interaction that drives the story. And it's. Yes, they are scary, and there are scenes that will creep you out. But the fact that we're going to care about these people. And I think that's what's so important. And I know for yourself and people like Mike Flanagan, the people, their emotions, how they interact, that's the heart of any good story.
- [20:23]
Rebecca Klingle
I think that's absolutely right. You really need that character depth, because people that care about the characters, you know, the horror is just so much better. And really, what are we doing here? Horror is or can be or should be used metaphorically for human experiences and human suffering and just, you know, the human condition, whatever you want to say. So you really need to get. And that's something that's done so effectively in this episode. If you can get people really interested in the characters, then it just makes it so much better. It makes things hit harder. And I think that you can feel the theme or the lesson or, you know, what have you. It's much easier to do when you're feeling the emotions with the characters along with them, and you do. And that you care about how they're feeling.
- [21:12]
Podcast Host
Absolutely, yeah. And the other theme that we talk a lot about, and I know Francesco and John talk a lot about how every episode there is a sense of social commentary, and you talk about horror being a device or a way to comment on humanity. And that's really what a big part of the series is, too. It's that. But again, the audience needs to kind of relate to it. And horror has always done that. Horror has always talked about what is going on in our society right now and what's the good of it, what's the bad of it. And so, you know, one of the things you hear a lot about these days is the epidemic of drug addiction and opioids and things like that. And so, even though this story is, as we said, 10 years old, there is that eternal kind of theme, that struggle that we all have with various addictions. And so. And it's nice to see that come out in the story. Was the addiction aspect when you wrote the original story? Was that more of a device, or was that maybe something you wanted to inject into the story to make it a little more timely?
- [22:16]
Rebecca Klingle
You know, I would say it was more of a device. What I was trying to get at there is the interesting phenomenon of looking back at your childhood and realizing things as an adult that were actually much darker or much more serious than you might have thought as a kid, and having to retrofit your memories to what was actually going on back then. And I think that that can be really scary, but also something that we all sort of go through as you get older and you start hearing the secrets of your childhood or what was happening, or as kids, I think we have a predisposition to thinking that things are good or bad, that my life is normal, or if my life feels like it's like everyone else is, then I'm normal kind of a thing. And it's much more like a 1 or a 0, a black or a white. And then you look back and you see so much nuance and the horror of the things that you did. Maybe you bullied a kid in middle school and you feel awful about it. Or the twist in Betsy the Doll. The horror of growing up and looking back at childhood and realizing that things were not as safe or much different than you thought.
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Podcast Host
Those shades of gray we talk about.
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Rebecca Klingle
Right? Exactly.
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Podcast Host
I've heard there's 50 of them I don't know about.
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Rebecca Klingle
I've heard that, too. Yeah. Yep. I've read that book.
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Podcast Host
Ah, there you go.
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Rebecca Klingle
I'll read anything, though. I'll read anything.
- [23:32]
Podcast Host
We've talked about your career and where it is now and these projects you're working on, and I know we would all love to hear about what's coming up. Are there any future projects or plans that you can share with us now?
- [23:44]
Rebecca Klingle
There is one. I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about it. It hasn't been announced yet. But, yes, by the time this airs, it'll probably be announced. I will say, yes, there is something on the horizon, which is wonderful because it's a really difficult time in the entertainment industry with the strikes and then the contraction, severe contraction that we're going through. So I'm very blessed and honored to say that I do have something coming up that I'm very excited about.
- [24:15]
Podcast Host
I think that is the best way to put it, because you've whet our appetites and now we're going to be watching. Everyone's going to subscribe to Deadline and Variety and all these websites. We'll see. I'm sure it'll be great news.
- [24:27]
Rebecca Klingle
I'll tweet it.
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Podcast Host
There you go.
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Rebecca Klingle
Or I'll tweet it when it's announced.
- [24:30]
Podcast Host
There you go. Well, we all got to follow Rebecca online and, well, that's exciting. Well, Rebecca, thank you for being a part of this and obviously for sharing your writing with not just the no Sleep podcast. But it's been amazing to have you on this. And, you know, I don't want to pretend that I've been a huge part of Tales from the Void in terms of growing it from the ground up. But when I saw that you and your story was going to be a part of this, I thought that's just had to be that way because you have. As I said, you've created so many great stories for the subreddit for the podcast and we've got our fingers crossed for maybe a second season and it would be amazing to have you be a part of that as well.
- [25:07]
Rebecca Klingle
Oh yes, I would love to be a part of the second season. Yes, I'm absolutely honored to have a story included in this season and to get to work with the no Sleep podcast again. It's all coming up great. I'm so excited.
- [25:21]
Podcast Host
Well, thanks again and we'll look forward to chatting with you soon and seeing what's coming to the screen from the pen of Rebecca Klingle. Thanks again.
- [25:29]
Rebecca Klingle
Thank you.
- [25:34]
David Cummings
I want to thank Rebecca Klingel for joining me and sharing her rise from the no Sleep community into one of the premier horror writers working today. Tales from the Void the Behind the Scenes podcast is a Creative Reason Media Production in conjunction with Envoy Entertainment Music by Alex Cuervo and Brandon Boone. Thank you for being with us. Join us next time for a deeper plunge into the void.
- [26:25]
Podcast Intro Voice
Lights are going up. Snow is falling down. There's a feeling of goodwill around town. It could only mean one thing. McRib is here. People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere, stockings hung up by the chimney with carrot. It could only mean one thing.
- [26:51]
Podcast Host
McRib is here at participating McDonald's for a limited time.
- [26:56]
Party Host
All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan Partisan. It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe margarita?
- [27:16]
Thirsty Guest
I'm thirsty.
- [27:17]
Rebecca Klingle
Watch.
- [27:17]
Party Host
I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.
- [27:22]
Thirsty Guest
Feel more seasonal in here already.
- [27:23]
Party Host
If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.
- [27:36]
Thirsty Guest
Tis the season to be jollier.
- [27:40]
Bartesian Advertiser
Add some holiday flavor to every celebration with the sleek, sophisticated home cocktail maker Bartisian. Get $50 off any cocktail maker at bartesian.com cocktail that's B A R T E S I A N dot com.
- [27:55]
Ryan
Cocktail it is Ryan here and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win? Like are you a fist pumper?
- [28:02]
Thirsty Guest
A woo hooer?
- [28:03]
Ryan
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- [28:21]
Rebecca Klingle
No purchase necessary. VGW Group void wear prohibited by law.
- [28:24]
Party Host
18/ terms and conditions apply.