← The Parent Chat with Dylan Dreyer
The Parent Chat with Dylan Dreyer
Stay-at-Home vs. Working Mom: Why the Whole Debate Is Outdated
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- [00:01]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:49]
Dylan Dreyer
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Parent Chat. Before we start, I want to play something for you. Smile. It's our last video here. Oh, bye. Awesome kitchen. Now this is just regular cell phone video. I am holding it from my perspective of walking around my tiny little New York City apartment, going from room to room, the kitchen, the living room. There is no furniture. Bye bathroom. We're about to drop off our keys and say goodbye to this apartment forever. I've got the three boys in tow. They're following me around. They're sensing my sense of as I say goodbye to this place I lived in for so long. And Rusty's crying. You'll hear that for sure. But he's not sad that we're leaving. He honestly has no idea what's going on. I think Ollie hit him or something, but Rusty's crying in the background. And then eventually we closed the door and said goodbye to my New York City apartment. I thought I'd be a lot sadder than I was, but to be honest, it was the best thing that could have happened to us. We just sold that apartment and now it was empty. And that room had seen so much. And now we were moving on to a new adventure, a new chapter as a family. So when you think about the different chapters in your life, motherhood obviously is such an impactful one. But what do you do when you have a career? How do you balance stepping away from your career? Whether it's just a little bit of time, a month or two months, three months. And I have the perfect guest today to talk through all of that. Our guest today is Neha Rush. She's the author of the Power Pause and she is so insightful because she has a degree from Stanford Business School and she had a whole career in brand strategy before she decided to pause that career and be a stay at home mom. It's a Fascinating conversation. Check it out. First things first, I just want to talk about this transition you had in your life. Stanford MBA to. I know you don't like the term, but a stay at home mom, the power. Pause your book. How did you go from being a working mom to then a stay at home mom?
- [03:14]
Neha Rush
I don't think I ever thought about motherhood as being different from work. Like, I just thought they sort of happened together. You know, I was rocking in this rocking chair with Bode. He was probably like 4 months old. I'd reached the ends of the interview on my phone, and yet there was something about it that felt so freeing. For the first time in a long time, I think I'd worked really hard to climb a ladder. I'd clocked in my decade and on paper had what was my dream job, except I'd gotten tired of the hustle and suddenly I had this little person who just wanted me to be me. And you know, I think the other part was it coincided with sort of a disenchantment with what I was doing at the time, which I think is important to highlight because suddenly I was really interest. Like, how do I get this baby to sleep? How do I feel about the fact that nursing isn't working? You know, I wanted to parse through that. My husband was working a ton at that moment. And yet I started to hear the pushback. And I think the biggest transition for me, the biggest growth piece, was how do I reconcile for myself making the best right choice and tuning out the noise that something about this didn't feel as approved upon or as successful and ambitious in the eyes of everyone I knew.
- [04:30]
Dylan Dreyer
So I've been the mom in the rocking chair, looking at the baby and wishing I didn't have to go back to work. I had to. You know, I made the money in our family, so I had to do that. But how do you know the difference between a wish, a hope, and actually knowing it's the right decision to step away from your career for a bit, to focus on family?
- [04:53]
Neha Rush
I think you sit with it for a period, you know, you put out all the options on the table, right? Like go back, go back part time, go back and negotiate being able to cut, like leave at 5pm so that you have more boundaries where there's an end date and you're considering going back. I think thinking through all the options is a big piece of this, right? Because for so long we've been fed this black and white idea of stay at home and working. And I think the reason I don't resonate with idea. Stay at home is. I think it's so much more fluid than that. You know, the data shows that one in three women are planning a pause in the next two years. One in two are planning a downshift of hours. But the 90% who are at home want a return. And I think for me, the cards just when I looked at all the options, I had the ability to go part time, which worked. I had the ability to set up childcare for those two days that I really trusted. The financial equipment part of that piece lined up such that actually it was like a no brainer because the cost of childcare and my time in the workplace, the trade off seemed clear. And then I think the last part was, did I feel like I could get back? And I felt really confident that I was able to make the most of this chapter and transition back. I think another piece of it was me and my partner. Would I feel safe? And he and I had no less than maybe six months of planning and discussion before I fully paused. Right.
- [06:23]
Dylan Dreyer
It's interesting you mentioned childcare because we used to have a full time nanny. We recently moved out of the city. Our circumstances changed. We're in like a co parenting situation. So it's like, what's the cost here, right? When. When I'm traveling for work, when I'm not there in the morning? So I think, you know, we're talking about you and your situation, but I think there's a lot of dads in this situation. Financially, what is better, like, what is the benefit of kids being able to have access to a parent as opposed to a nanny or a babysitter?
- [06:58]
Neha Rush
Well, the one thing I do want to call out, because it's such a crucial foundation to this conversation, is that all of the research shows that careers impact your children. 0. What children really value is presence. And that is not measured in hours. It's measured in how you show up for your child.
- [07:19]
Dylan Dreyer
I'm so curious because I'm sure, you know, there are a lot of moms who would love the opportunity to put their career on pause or leave their career completely to be at home with their kids. But then I think back, you know, when I was making baby food for the kids, I'm like, oh, I wanna just stay home and make a baby food company. Right. Cause I like this. Okay, now I'm out of the baby food phase, you know, and it's like, oh man, I'm glad I didn't do that because now I don't even wanna think about Making baby food. So let's say now your kids are 18, they're about to leave the house, and you've committed your whole life to just doing everything for the kids. Now what?
- [07:55]
Neha Rush
Oh, I'm so glad you asked. Well, I think in your case, let's, let's play that out, right. If it was between a role you weren't loving the way you did, or an employer who wasn't good to you, I mean, in the case of NBC, they were wonderful to you. Right. And in the case of your work, you were deeply passionate about it. In the case of your financial capacity, it was felt compensatory for the efforts you were making. And the decision you and your ex made was that he would be able to provide childcare and, or a mix with a nanny to be able to create a trusting environment for your children to raise. So you made that equation work and it worked really nicely. And I think if it's not broken, why break it?
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Dylan Dreyer
Right?
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Neha Rush
Right. Like I say this all the time to people who are like, I actually love what I do. That's amazing. Yeah, love what you do.
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Dylan Dreyer
And this wouldn't be, this wouldn't be.
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Neha Rush
How wonderful would it be for children to see a parent who loves what they do, whether that's parenting them or whether it's going to the office for a period of time doing something they're passionate about and bringing that passion back to their children. I think one of the great myths that has haunted career pauses is that it's somehow a life pause. And what I mean by that is if you are shifting your time, energy and focus away from your paid work for a chapter, there's a world that you can say actually in doing that for a different set of priorities, whether that be childcare, elder care, mental health, physical health. I'm going to strategic make room for myself to also grow my network, grow my interest in skills, and come back with a clearer sense of self than ever before. Because I think what very quickly happens is you, Dylan Dreyer, in an alternate universe pause work, you're suddenly at home. You've had a lot of outward metrics of success for a long time. And there's been someone saying, if you do this, you get this right now you're at home and you're thinking, well, I guess like my success is my kids behavior. And now they're wrestling outside and you're thinking like, oh my God, am I a failure? Right. Because that's how I felt with like a 4 year old and a 1 year old pushing each other Thinking like, I raised sociopaths and it's over. And it took that moment for me to say, and now I tell women, this time also is yours. So how do you take back that sense of power over this time and make sure it doesn't feel like it's happening to you? And it sounds contrived, but it's goals. It's goals of your own. There's a number of different ways to do it. I always talk about it as the five year vision exercise. You write in an ideal, detailed way what your perfect version of a Monday looks like with your kids. It's gonna reveal to you, oh, I really wanna work on, you know, nutrition. I'm really interested in nutrition professionally. And maybe I'm gonna dig it. Like, follow that curiosity for a bit. I've always wanted to have a silly household. I'm gonna have a dance party every single Monday. The reason those little metrics of success are important is because they are going to now help you feel like you are moving yourself forward.
- [11:03]
Dylan Dreyer
It's incredible because, you know, you hear it from the outside and it's like, yes, I'm going to take this pause for my career. I'm going to focus on my kids. And then you think, and then I'll get back into my career. But you're kind of saying, if you're in a position where you feel like you can leave your career because you've maxed it out or you've gotten everything you can out of it and you're ready for this next chapter, help yourself grow into the next thing.
- [11:30]
Neha Rush
And sometimes that means there are some people who loved what they did and actually do wanna come return to that industry in some capacity. And so the advice for that is, well, how do you stay? Keep your finger on the pulse, right? And maybe your professional goal is, I'm gonna network within the industry, outside of the walls of my previous employer, and I'm gonna have every month with someone different. That's my thing. Or I'm gonna, I don't have the childcare to be able to do that. So I'm gonna go on LinkedIn 20 minutes a week and just gently nudge old contacts and see what they're up to and so that they know I'm still part of this. Or I'm gonna post once a week on LinkedIn so people know that I'm still keeping myself engaged and learned. There are other people who might say this is actually my time to test and learn the number of women who just wanna be able to, to test like an interest in event marketing for 10 hours a week or 5 hours a week. Well, that can look like volunteering in your school, like while your kids are young, Right. And I had a woman say, you know, I'm doing what's called strategic volunteering. I'm going into the school every year and testing out event marketing. Then I'm doing comms for one year. Then I'm just going to be the, like family education forum and bring in different speakers because those little pieces start to leave clues for what I might want next. I interviewed this woman in North Carolina who said I was trying to piece together what I wanted next. And I wanted to see which bullet stood out to me the most, like, which one really made me feel proud. And it was this moment where she had reorganized her son's bus route. He just wasn't getting picked up efficiently like every other child in Manhattan, in her case, N.C. and she realized, like, I really loved implementing a new system. I love calling around and making like, seeing this project forward. Wow, maybe I'm really interested in project management. And the reason that's interesting is because then she started gearing her return around that. And she put on her resume career sabbatical for family life. And under the first bullet was implemented highly technical infrastructure change to local organization. Because that seemingly ordinary thing that was just like a random bullet. The things that we do in the ordinary moments of motherhood where we are constantly problem solving, actually has a lot of weight and dignity if we can take the time to connect the dots.
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Dylan Dreyer
Wow. And this gives, I would imagine, so much more purpose to quote, unquote, just being a stay at home mom. I mean, you are actually working on yourself. You're not making a rash decision to quit your career, stay at home because you want to be with the kids. It sounds like you really have to put in the effort and do the work to get where you want to go in the future.
- [14:20]
Neha Rush
It takes a little bit of strategy. And the reality of today is we're just looking at a very different woman who has come into motherhood older and has much more education and work experience than a 1970s counterpart. She has a more equitable relationship with her partner, so she's not serving him cocktails at the end of the day. And she has access to digital tools and technology, so she's able to stay connected and creative in such a different way. And yes, so much of the upfront is reminding women that we actually have to update the narrative and they are not sort of stepping into this. June Cleaver Archetype, I mean, parenting day
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Dylan Dreyer
to day and planning and the mental load of just thinking through everything you have to think through. If you don't give yourself time, I feel like you, you would almost regret the decision to stay at home in the first place.
- [15:05]
Neha Rush
First of all, I think two things happen. One, you would get very consumed with outward expectations of what your time at home was, right? So, I mean, I think so many women we interviewed stepped into, quote, unquote, stay at home motherhood and thought, well, if I'm a stay at home mom, I have to be a super mom. And they take that sort of, you know, they go on their Instagram and they see the scroll of, well, someone has a beautiful home and someone's home cooking meals and someone else is doing art projects and they don't realize that everyone's, like, doing that one thing, but then they're letting go of something else behind the scenes. The second piece that often happens is, is that women will fall into the trap of, well, if I don't do paid work, I don't deserve support, but no one can work 247 without breaks. And as soon as you have that time, it lets you be able to enjoy the decision more and it allows you to fear less the possibilities on the other side. And that was really the thesis of the work. Never was it to say the pauses were the right choice. It was always to say, if you do pause or downshift and you take your foot off the gas, you can still be ambitious with your time and you can still grow to preserve more opportunity on the other side.
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Dylan Dreyer
I know you surveyed a lot of women, asking them, who do you look up to? Who is your role model as someone who stays at home?
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Neha Rush
Well, sadly, actually, we polled the American public, 1200 at home parents and 1000 members of the general population. And when we asked, who do you think of? When you think of a stay at home mom, not who do you look up to, but who do you think of? We heard Michelle Obama, Sheryl Sandberg, and Beyonce for the working mom and Judy Cleaver, really, and Lucy Ricardo for that home parent. And it's because we as a culture had not updated the perceptions, right? And that is a power chasm that is so wide and so far from the reality of the modern women we're talking about, right? And I think that that archetype has hunted women. So, you know, I think that really the hope for this work is to just put so many more examples on the table, not any one archetype, but just to say it is fluid, it is evolving. And we're actually all more alike than we're different.
- [17:25]
Dylan Dreyer
Stay with us. We'll be right back after the break. So what is your advice to women who maybe they're the sole income in the house or there is no way, despite how much they don't like their job, there is no way they could take a pause to stay with their children.
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Neha Rush
Well, I think the first part is what we talked about before in Stuart Friedman's research is to comfort yourself in knowing there is no one right way. There really isn't. And the research pans out that your children are gonna be just a. Okay. As long as they know they are loved and safe with you. The second piece of it is to decide what you're optimizing for. Right. Because flexibility means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The other piece that I'm really passionate about right now and I think is interesting is we talk about a lot about flexibility in the workforce. And I don't think managers are jerks. Like, I really do think a lot of managers in a lot of corporations want to make it work, but just don't know how. And so I spoke to a woman at JP Morgan. And finance is historically one of the hardest industries to attain flexibility. She called a friend who had a friend who had negotiated a two day a week work week and she borrowed that woman's template and put it in front of her manager as to this is how it's gonna work.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yeah. From an at home perspective, when your kids see you and you're home all the time and you're there for them for everything they need. Right. I mean, this is why you took a pause to be there for them. How do you still make sure that they see that you, you have this identity, you have these other passions. You know, you're not there just for them, but they look up to you in that role for being able to be who you are.
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Neha Rush
Too few things, because I get this question a lot. One, they will not always remember year over a year, they will remember at the end some smudgy version of what you presented. My kids do not know I was. I have to remind them all the time I was at home with them. Like, I literally tell them all the time just so that they don't forget. But during those years, I think it was really important to talk about my interests a lot. Sometimes it's hobbies, right. Like, I'm getting good at mahjong right now. I wanted them to know I talk about like I wanted mahjong and I want them to know those interests. But the irony is I think kids notice when you're lit up. That's what they want to see. And so ironically I was on full book tour spread. The thing they were most interested in was that I was volunteering at the school. The reason I brought up that in the end it's going to be some smudgy version is because what I always say is my end goal with this book is that one day my kids grow up and someone's going to ask my daughter, did you have a stay at home or working mom? And she will have no idea what that meant. She'll just know I was there. I worked.
- [20:38]
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- [20:54]
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- [21:09]
Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electricity electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end. Huh, Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace. Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff. Nibbles would have loved you like a brother. Connecting homeowners with skilled Pros for over 30 years, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com
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Neha Rush
done a lot of different things I cared about and I loved her very much.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yeah, it's beautiful. So now that we got through a lot of the serious stuff, let's get into the fun part of parenting. Are there any confessions you have being a mom trying to do it all?
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Neha Rush
I think I didn't do it all. So I was the only stay at home parent who hated the playground. Really? Like when you were talking about being on the playground for two hours, there's so many reasons. There were so many children. Yes. I have two very attached children and like there were all these mothers who sat on the bench and I was in the sandbox.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yes.
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Neha Rush
And then I became the default parent for all these other humans. And it just was too much. So I started outsourcing playground time to like, you know, I think a lot about investing in childcare when you don't have paid work because I think it helped me. And I at one point had a. Like, I do now I have a babysitter three to four afternoons a week and she's on playground duty. I meet them after and they get a more refreshed version because it was such a trigger for me. I'm also an only child, so then people would take their trucks when they were little and I'd be like, you can't take the truck. And I realized I was a terrible model for sharing.
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Dylan Dreyer
This makes me feel so seen because I didn't know what I was doing wrong at the playground. I'm looking at all the other moms and they're chit chatting and they're happy. And my mind, I'm tapping my foot because my mind's like, I really need to just go home and I need to cook dinner and I want to do this. And I am sitting here for. For hours when there is just something else I could be doing. And two of my kids are more attached. The other one would go out and play sports. And that's fine if you want to go play. Good. I will just sit here and just chill for a second. But it was the sandbox, and a New York City sandbox is not my favorite place. And then they're taking the boys toys and they're burying the toys in the sand. And I'm trying to, like, pinpoint where each toy is because I know I have to dig up each of these toys or else there's going to be tears because we lost the toys. And they don't even like these kids at the playground.
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Neha Rush
So it's also hard to. I think of myself as immune to the comparison trap because I know enough. But when you are watching other children, like, I would have been watching your older son being like, what did I do wrong as a parent? And so it brings up so much.
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Dylan Dreyer
It does.
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Neha Rush
Like, not only are you annoyed about the truck, but then you're like rethinking all of your parenting choices and spiraling at night being like, googling, how do I get my child to not be on my lap at the playground?
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Dylan Dreyer
I also don't love being playing. I know that sounds weird, but Rusty, my little guy, will come over, he's like, can you kick the ball with me? And it's like, I really don't want to. Yeah, yeah, no offense. I'm just kind of tired. Like, I want to just. I'll sit and watch you, or I'll, like, play goalie while I sit, but I don't feel like getting up, and I'm just not going to.
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Neha Rush
You're the best goalie to play with ever. You're sitting.
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Dylan Dreyer
I'm just going to sit there.
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Neha Rush
Yeah.
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Dylan Dreyer
Or like, imaginative play. It's just not where my brain goes. I'll cook you dinner and we can bake cookies together, and I will love every moment of it, but I just don't feel like playing soccer with you.
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Neha Rush
But I think that's like. Like the fact that you bake. Yeah, I'm not. I'm. I don't do that. But I do really love art. Like, that was my thing, and I felt like if I could do art with you, great. That fills me up. I enjoy that. That's the best version. And then we'll go to a coffee shop like that. I structured a lot of my day to our earlier conversation about, like, allowing this to be your time, too.
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Dylan Dreyer
Everybody's happy.
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Neha Rush
Everyone's happy.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yeah. It's fulfilling for everybody. More of the parent chat after the break.
- [25:18]
Commercial Narrator
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- [25:35]
to know what moments mean the most to you. Whether it's buying a home or hosting a party, there's an Etsy seller with the perfect original pieces to help you celebrate. Celebrate being human. Carter's has your family covered for every summer. First for steps, first swim lesson, or first sleepover. Our clothes help kids and parents shine, thanks to comfy design and easy dressing details. Visit Carters.com to shop the latest styles or find a Carter's store near you.
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Dylan Dreyer
So what would you say is a recent parenting win for you?
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Neha Rush
You know, my son asked me what sex was and death was and those sort of big questions, and I felt like I answered them well. So, I mean, if you'd like, I can tell you what I said, but I. I'm curious.
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Dylan Dreyer
What did you say?
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Neha Rush
Well, I was. I mean, I. Well, I started with, you know, when two people decide to have a family, they need a seed and an egg. And the seed and an egg come together to create a baby. And he was like, well, but how did this. How does the seed get to the egg? And I was like, well, it depends on. Some people do it in a doctor's office and some people do it through something like sex. And not like, it was definitely sex. And the seed that, you know, the seed comes out of the man's penis and the egg is inside the woman and the penis goes inside the vagina, and that's it.
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Dylan Dreyer
These are the facts.
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Neha Rush
And he was like, you let daddy do that to you two times. And I was like, correct just two times.
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Dylan Dreyer
I don't have to answer it. You don't have to answer everything.
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Neha Rush
That's all I have capacity for. I think death was more interesting. I said, you know how flowers die or batteries die? They run out of energy. And at some point, bodies run out of energy. We need a lot of different parts to make it work. And the questions that came up, because my husband's grandfather had passed at 100 years old, he said, do you think he's scared in the grave of the lights being out all the time? I was like, that's creepy. And no, because his batteries run out. Those parts aren't working.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yeah.
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Neha Rush
And so I, you know, I felt like I handled those well.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yeah. Kevin did ask me, you know, if your body is buried, what's in heaven? Like, do you have arms and legs and a body in heaven? And it's. It was just one of those, you know, these questions sort of come out of nowhere sometimes. So I started talking about, it's like your soul, you know, it's like when you're dreaming, you know, your body's there, but physically there's nothing there. It's a dream in your head. And in heaven, you know, we believe your soul goes to heaven. So you, you have the perception of your body and recognizing other people's body, but there's really nothing tangible there.
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Neha Rush
But isn't that amazing? Like, you got to rethink your relationship to religion just then. Right. Like, you probably didn't go through your day to day here thinking about that. And so much of parenthood is just coming a long way alongside your kids. Right. And I think that, that, like, if I were to reflect back on what has sort of like, given me the most energy during parenting, it's that it's not the playing.
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Dylan Dreyer
Right.
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Neha Rush
So I forgive the sandbox because I'm like. But I'm doing all this great deep work on not being a jerk during your playdates.
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Dylan Dreyer
There's a lot you're proud of.
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Neha Rush
Yeah.
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Dylan Dreyer
Yeah. It's been so lovely to talk with you. Thank you so much.
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Neha Rush
Thank you.
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Dylan Dreyer
Wow. I personally thought this was such a great conversation with Neha. I mean, I went into it thinking, you know what? I love my career, I love what I do. I would never take a full on pause from my career to be with the kids full time because I love my job so much. And the best thing about that is, well, I don't have to. That's not what works for me. But if you've maxed out your career and you want to stay home with your kids, if you can stay home with your kids and you think that's the best thing for you, then do that. Thank you guys so much for watching. I would love to hear your comments on today's episode. DM us Today Parents. Be sure to like subscribe. Follow us to all the things you're supposed to do to make sure we keep popping up in your feed. I would just like to hear your opinions on the matter. Thanks so much for watching. Bye Bye. This episode was produced by Anne Lagomayo with audio production by Kenneth Villalobos. It was edited by Jon Paulson. Rachel Paula Abramson is our parenting reporter. Our senior producer is Tyre Nobles. Our audio engineer is Joe Plourd. Our head of audio production is Jessica Fenton. Ashley Domagola is our production manager. Sadie Bass is our supervising producer. And Ariana Davis is the executive editor of the Today Show. I'm Dylan Dreyer and this has been the Parent Chat, a production of the Today Show. We'll see you next week.
- [30:30]
Commercial Narrator
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- [30:43]
Neha Rush
Are you my dad now?
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Commercial Narrator
No, sorry. I do basements. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie, the one you trust. Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com.