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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the reprogram, where we reveal and heal the programs our nervous system picked up along our lives to protect us, where our children's improved behavior is a byproduct of the safety we've reclaimed in our bodies, where we use neuroscience to bring us back to love, and where we bravely heal ourselves so our children don't have to. Intergenerational trauma ends with us. I see you. I'm with you. I am you. Let's reprogram together. Hey, everyone. I am so thrilled to have Ash Brandon here today to talk to us about all the technology things. Hey, Ash. Hey.
- [00:44]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [00:46]
A
Ash is so prolific and comforting and evidence based and provides so much wonderful knowledge. On their Instagram page, the game Educator. Educator. I just came out real Southern with that moment. And they have been in the school system teaching for 13 years. They're a parent with us as well. And I think y' all will really love this refreshing take on how to raise conscious consumers of screens, because they're a part of this world and they will continue to be so. And how can we navigate that in a way that works for all of us? Right? Is that your kind of guiding principle, Ash, or what drew you to this topic?
- [01:23]
B
Well, extremely well said. Yes. What drew me to the topic? Honestly, it was like, kind of accidental. I was kind of interested in this and doing work in the intersection of gaming and education. My background's education, and I was a classroom teacher for a really long time. And I thought, well, I really like video games. Students often like them. How do I make the things I'm teaching feel as motivating as a game without, like, literally having them play a game? And did that for a while. Kind of talked about it in a lot of, like, game centric spaces, conventions, like kind of casual spaces. And I just. I don't know, it's just a fun thing. And then with the onset of COVID I thought, well, those kind of big events are not happening anytime soon. And even if they are, I wasn't ready to attend them. And that was kind of the push to actually get onto Instagram. I'd thought about it in some way for a while, but I just didn't know what. What way I would show up and what I would actually talk about. And that that was kind of the push. And initially, naively, I thought, oh, like, I'll just do the same thing. Like, it'll be really education focused. And my initial audience, like, where I saw some initial traction and growth was with homeschool communities. Which kind of had a different definition in 2021. But sure, everything is. Everyone was a homeschool. Yeah, but that's where I saw that initial tract was kind of this overlap. Right. Of the two environments, education and home. And that was when I realized, like, oh, I had thought that adults at home were not having the same cognitive dissonance with screens and video games as teachers. Because my assumption was, well, of course the adults at home will get this because they see it all the time. And then I realized like, oh, that was not at all true. And then realized that actually my, my audience was like all caregivers. And that's when it really kind of, kind of broadened. And when I realized, like, your question of what really kind of drew me to this and that kind of central messaging was that what I heard and noticed from people was that their driver in wanting to know what to do was because they were just so worried about screwing up their kids or being a bad parent, and they were just coming with so much fear. And I thought, okay, like, we have to find a way to help people find a more balanced way of looking at this.
- [04:04]
A
And what do you mean by cognitive dissonance? What do you. Can you explain or what you're referring to that as far as the screens as the teacher and the parent and that kind of conversion of ideas?
- [04:15]
B
Yeah, I was actually kind of not sure if I should even use that phrase when I used it, so I might regret it now.
- [04:20]
A
You can always edit it out. Don't worry about it.
- [04:22]
B
It's tr. Coming from this place of a lot of caregivers coming from a place of recognizing the reality they were in. Right. Of like, we're in a technological world. I can't meet all of my kids needs at every given moment of the day, particularly several years ago, but also true now. But I'm also simultaneously being told that I need to minimize. I need to have as little screen time as humanly possible, that I need to prioritize the outdoors, whatever that kind of messaging is. And how can both. How can these things, like, coexist? How can they be true? Because it does. I think that is a very dissonant feeling of we're in a reality that is extremely technologically centric. Whether or not we like it, that's just kind of the reality. But then a lot of the advice we're being given is basically to eschew, like, everything about our reality. And that feels extremely weird and difficult. And like, how is someone gonna win when they're trying to juggle These two things. And I think it sets up a lot of caregivers for a sense of failure because it is impossible to do both those things, to reconcile those things 1,000%.
- [05:40]
A
And what are your real guiding principles for the platform you've created? I mean, I also think about a real guiding principle for me as well as something you've already touched on, which is we have these primal bodies and nervous systems that have definitely not adapted to the modern world. We live in 100 years, 200 years, a thousand years, and definitely the last 20. So how can we live in this world and honor our survival physiology and our drive for connection while also living in a culture that is just shoving it down our kids throats and marketing to us insatiably and also gives us that much needed break that we don't have the village for or the field to safely run in instead of being in a building all day or what have you.
- [06:28]
B
Right, right. So two things. I'll go backwards. So I think that sometimes the concern or the assumption is that it has to be very like binary, that it has to be this all or nothing. And that's just. I don't think that's true. And I also just think that again, that is just setting people up for failure. Like it is not going to be successful for the majority of families. So yeah, of course we do want to raise kids who can grow up to be adults and successful humans who can manage all these things, who can balance these extremely appealing parts of life that are changing all the time, that are probably going to become even more technologically driven in ways we can't even foresee. We want them to be able to do that, but we also want them to enjoy, you know, other parts of their lives and manage those things with responsibilities. But doing that is some. We, we teach that in many ways. I think we also often teach it through modeling of our own lives, but we teach it through not abstinence, but through education and risk management and those kinds of things. Like I was just looking at this and thinking more about this the other day. You know, we have a really big body of research that shows that abstinence only education is not successful in whatever realm.
- [08:00]
A
You mean everywhere, all the time, right? Essentially just don't do it ever. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
- [08:07]
B
And we don't really have studies of that around technology, but we have a broad amount of research on it in terms of sex education and also alcohol and drug education. We look at DARE initiatives and we say that actually no, those things are not very successful. And if Anything. When we prioritize education that addresses the reality and also risk management, it actually can be a better preventer from some of those riskier behaviors because people fully understand the reality of what they're engaging with.
- [08:42]
A
God, I love it. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that in. That is so important. Right? And how can we educate them just enough, give them the reins just enough and help build their, help support their building brain that is being exposed to this very enticing, as you say, experience in a way that will set them up for that adult period where we want them to be self directed and have some healthy balance. Right. Of human connection is important. Moving your body is important. Addiction to screens is a real thing, right? Like, how do you support caretakers in walking that balance? And I certainly have my own ideas I can share as well because I've been navigating these waters with you in my own house, life, body.
- [09:30]
B
Well, absolutely, please do. But when we provide education to people, I think somehow we assume that if I name the thing that I am condoning the thing. And again, to draw parallels back to whatever potentially unsafe thing you want to draw comparisons to or vice or whatever. Education around a thing is not condoning it in all circumstances. It's also not allowing it in uncontrolled ways. We can draw these comparisons too, with relatively innocuous things that can become problematic depending on our relationship with them. You know, I make a lot of comparisons to food. And many people now are parenting around food very differently than the way they were raised around food for much the same reason. Because we understand that if we are coming from this place of talking about food, good food and bad food, or scarcity, that wow, like, humans are really psychologically driven. And if you tell me I can't have something, it makes me want it more, well, guess what? That also applies to stuff like technology. It applies to so many parts of our lives. And I can still treat, you know, cookies as morally neutral in my household and have conversations around the energy that cookies give us compared with the energy that cheese is going to give us. Those conversations are not mutually exclusive because just as when I talk about the, the benefits of eating a cheese stick, I'm not making that food morally superior. So similarly with technology, educating around it and helping people understand why this thing feels fun or why I and why this person enjoys this thing, or why when, why, when our kid is feeling unhappy or a negative emotion, why they might gravitate towards something like a screen, helping them understand that means we're helping them understand themselves, which means we're setting them up to be able to help themselves more in adulthood. That is, I would argue, kind of our role as caregivers in the long haul. And I think we might think that, oh, if we just avoid that conversation, then it just kind of keeps the whole thing simpler.
- [11:50]
A
Oh, that's the old way. That's the old way.
- [11:54]
B
Right. I get it. Like, yes, it is simpler. It is simpler to just say in the short term.
- [12:00]
A
Yeah.
- [12:00]
B
And short term. But. But the other thing that that does is that we are inad. Well, inadvertently, I probably. We are inadvertently putting the full burden of responsibility on our future child. Like not our child right now, but when our child is not at home.
- [12:25]
A
Exactly.
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B
Doesn't have someone telling him what to do. Right, exactly. So our kid moves into the dorm and their roommate has the PS8 or whatever. Like the newest.
- [12:34]
A
The meth rock.
- [12:36]
B
The most appealing, newest technology. Yeah, right. Or whatever.
- [12:41]
A
Right.
- [12:42]
B
Whatever Vice thing. Right. We are, we are basically putting that full responsibility of managing that thing and being able to say, oh, no, I can't play more. I have a midterm I have to study for. We're putting that full responsibility on that future kid. And if we're not giving them the skills and ability to manage those things now in age appropriate ways, then they're not going to have that later. And so again, I bring in that caveat of age appropriate. You know, we expose our kids to risk all the time. We just make sure that it's risk that feels appropriate to us. I would not delay teaching my child to ride a bike until I am 1000% confident they'll never fall off, because honestly, that will never happen. But I also do not say, well, they're gonna fall off and they're gonna probably get hurt, so why do they need to wear a helmet?
- [13:34]
A
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
- [13:36]
B
I'm still going. I'm still going to put boundaries in place. I'm still going to do things that I know are going to keep them safe and that are also safe habits that I want them to adopt. And. And I'm going to control the environment enough so that the risk that they're taking feels manageable and feels appropriate for them.
- [13:53]
A
So good. So I love the correlation to food and how we no longer say, this is good, this is bad, and we're teaching them how it affects their bodies. Right. This is what the. I was just writing a post about this earlier and just did a podcast about discipline. Like, discipline means to teach, and we are meant to be these guides and to help them Understand also how their physiology is responding. Like I remember I was at a parade with my kids and there was all this candy being thrown to them and it was 11 o' clock and I'm just like, okay, here we are, you know, they're eating the candy and then after a few minutes, ash, like they started to get really wiggly and kind of silly and busy. And I said, oh look, the sugar's hit your blood. Look at how, notice how you feel, right? Like it's not good or bad. I'm not saying, see, candy's terrible. I'm just like, okay, see what's happening to your body now that the sugar has hit your bloodstream and you're feeling all silly. Like this is how cause and effect happens. So they can start to be conscious consumers or similarly, right? With the screens around not making anything like demonic or having like too much of a stake in the ground of trying to constantly prove to them to agree with you that this is a terrible thing. You're going to just pit yourself against each other. Right? And that's a hard one because we got feelings and thoughts and opinions about it. And also as you said, our kids, I can't even, no one even knows what we're up, like careers, new jobs that aren't even invented. I like can't even think of the words to properly articulate the unknown that is in the future of technology, but really helping depersonalize it as, oh yeah, your brain is responding to this. This is what happens. Not trying and just trying to like provide that. I think also that ability to interoception, to pull our kids into their self awareness of what their body is showing them is happening inside so that again, when they're in college, when they're away from us, they have something to fall back on and they have a pattern in their system of, oh, I noticed this, this means this, I could do this, I could do that. And I'm continuously assessing like the big picture of it all. Does that make sense?
- [16:00]
B
Oh yeah, absolutely.
- [16:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. And you know, I wonder though, like when you talk about the helmet, what are some safety concerns that parents really, that you really advise are important to really hone in on? You know, what's the latest? You know, as we said, things are constantly changing. You know, what do we need to know about like real safeguards as far as the games and the predators and the YouTube of it all? Like, where do you really hold your hat, you know, hang your hat as far as, like these measures are really important to know about and to Use possibly.
- [16:37]
B
So if I could kind of make one rule for technology and apps and if we could suddenly have a reality in which technology companies are always prioritizing the safety and wellness of their users as opposed to profits. Right. It would be, it would be that apps, consoles, whatever thing starts in the most restricted place by default.
- [17:07]
A
Oh yeah, right. And then you, and then you lift
- [17:10]
B
the train like you remove these safe holds as you feel is appropriate. Because the reality is like, I just think it's really important to name this. The amount of work that has to go in to make these things safe is Herculean. I mean, it is a lot like I know what I'm looking for and it will take me a long time. You know, I have some, I think, pretty helpful guides on my website that are totally free and there's like one on kindle fires, there's three guides on YouTube settings. I have like content highlights about, you know, Switch and Roblox and like how to. And iOS settings and how to make all this stuff safer depending on what you want it to be. And all of that was just me kind of literally trying to do it for myself.
- [18:01]
A
Yeah.
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B
And because even when I looked to see guides that may already exist, you can kind of find a piecemeal. But it's hard and it is not intuitive and it is also not something that comes with the technology in a particularly transparent way because you know, again, the motives of a company making a device are going to be very different than what we might want them to be. So if you have the bandwidth or capacity to investigate what's available before you make it available to your child, I would say that is absolutely, I think the best practice because it is setting both of you up for success in several ways. One, it is informing you as the adult of like what is even possible because you might have no clue that some game you've downloaded actually has online access and therefore they can access like user generated content, which could mean anything. Right. You might have no idea. And so even just educating yourself of like, oh, I didn't even know that this game could do that. Well, now you do. And it also puts you in control and it puts you in a place where you can set that up. Whatever it is, a console or game or whatever, you can set it up so that you can feel entirely comfortable when they're using it. So I think sometimes people think like, oh, well, but I don't know, like, I don't want to police them. That'd be like so much policing. I don't want to have to look at that. I'm like, actually, what you're doing is you're preventing yourself from having to police them because you're giving them the things set up in such a way so that you know that they can be successful and you know that they can basically do whatever they want and it will feel okay to you. So what's that kid gonna feel? That kid's gonna feel like, oh, my gosh, I can do all of this stuff. They're gonna feel all this freedom and autonomy because you're not being like, oh, wait, can you do. Hold on, let me check this. Because you already know. So it's gonna playpen.
- [20:05]
A
I've decided this is okay, right. And explore within that.
- [20:09]
B
Exactly, exactly. You're setting up. Exactly. You're setting up the parameters. And also then puts you in a position of knowing, like, what would I even be more comfortable with? You know, like, if they wanted access to such and such a feature, would I say yes? Or like, what would I be willing to say yes to? So this comes up a lot with games that have any sort of online multiplayer aspect, which is frankly thousands of games, but there's some big ones, you know, Roblox and Fortnite, Minecraft can have this capability. Platforms like Discord, which are essentially just chat rooms, people act like Discord is a brand new thing. Chat rooms are not new. It's just same thing, different name.
- [20:52]
A
Sure.
- [20:53]
B
But if that. If your kids wanting something like that, you might ask yourself or be able to see that and go, okay, am I ever going to be okay with this? Because maybe the answer is no. Or at least not for the foreseeable future. But if the answer might, like, maybe you're looking in the settings and you suddenly see that one of the settings for chatting with other users is like, oh, they can chat with like approved friends. You're like, oh, actually that'd be fine. Because if I approve their friend, I probably know them in real life. Or maybe I just approve, like, friends I really trust or family members, depending on what it looks like. We can start from there and then I could add people to their approved list. And suddenly now you're realizing all these ways that actually you could kind of scaffold them from really adult controlled access to eventually them having much more access so that they can manage it themselves. So the more you can get in and look at the tools and settings available, I think the better. But I also recognize that that is hard and it's a lot. We don't always have that ability to do that. So if you're in a bind or particularly if you're like, I just need to know whether or not this app is fine. Right. Like, is this app okay? Or Common sense media. Great, great website. Free. Like, just type in the name of the app. They even have, like, some creators on YouTube, like YouTube channels. They review books and apps, games, TV shows, movies. So you can even just get a little idea of, like, the things to even be thinking about with that content. And that can kind of give you a yes. No. I have very personal feelings about games that are set up in what call free to play structure, meaning they're free to download. Lots of parents say yes to that
- [22:49]
A
because it's free when using iPads, like those kind of apps.
- [22:54]
B
Exactly.
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A
Gotcha. Gotcha.
- [22:55]
B
Right, Exactly. And people are very quick to say yes to that because it's free. Why wouldn't you. Right. Totally get it. But the problem is, if you think about why would a company be okay with giving their content away for free? And then you think about it that way and you're like, oh, well, they wouldn't. So their goal is to make money. So if their goal is to make money and they're not charging for the game, then how are they going to make money? And the answer is they're going to incentivize spending money. So a lot of those games motivate very differently from a game that you pay for. If you pay for it, then the game has to make you happy. You paid for it, and it has to motivate you more intrinsically. Right. Because if I pay my $40 for a game and I don't like it, I'm not going to buy the sequel.
- [23:47]
A
Right.
- [23:48]
B
The game, sure. But they also already have my money, so they have to make me happy to have bought it. But if I buy a $60 Mario game and then I try to play the first level, and it's like, oh, you'd have more fun if you bought this $5 thing. I am going to be like, absolutely not. I already have my money. But when the game is free and it's like, well, actually, you'd have way more fun if you bought this thing. It's only $2. Now I'm like, well, why not? I haven't spent anything and I'll have way more fun. That's very similar psychology to a slot machine.
- [24:20]
A
Right.
- [24:21]
B
To gambling. So if you can avoid those kinds of apps, I would. If you are. If you have access to iOS devices, the Apple Store. Apple Arcade is a paid subscription. It's like $5 a month. But any game that is on Apple Arcade cannot have microtransactions and it cannot have ads.
- [24:44]
A
Yeah. And it sounds terrible for a child's brain and it also sounds exhausting for the parent to constantly be asked can I, can I, can I? And you're saying no, no. What is that? I'm busy. And you're giving them the tablet or the screen? Honestly, because we don't have the village or we need a break. We're doing a million things right. So it just sounds like a lose, lose in all directions. So thank you for saying that. I'm also curious, like what is the research around the individual tablets and each child having their own access to a universe of games and simulation versus like a switch on a television. Is there any shift in that? And the way siblings might be playing instead of just this me in a screen versus on the television. Is there any research around the difference? Because I'm such an old 80s parent and I'm thinking it feels like there's a difference. I don't know the research though.
- [25:35]
B
So. Was that a question?
- [25:37]
A
It's, I mean, no, it just like a.
- [25:40]
B
No. So like individual tablets versus you know, big screen, especially for siblings to share
- [25:48]
A
on and play like a switch versus their own screen to navigate by themselves.
- [25:57]
B
Right. I'm sure there is more research than I am aware of and I a lot and some of that research will also deviate to like some very specific places. So like I, for example, I know there's research on like, like eye health when it comes to like distance from devices. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So like I definitely not going to speak to that. But just from sort of the management standpoint it really is just sort of a pros and cons scenario. Like if you, you know, if you have multiple kids and obviously if they have their own devices then you're managing less rivalry and that might be easier for you. If they are on a shared device, then you might have a better sense of what they're doing. But also you might have to be playing referee more. So it's, I think it's just sort of a cost benefit analysis. I will say that there is, there is research that shows that particularly this is specific to gaming. Video gaming in shared spaces is twice associated with better outcomes. So like for kids who had access to gaming in isolated spaces, bedrooms, their own room. Sure, sure, sure, yeah. Or like, you know, they're alone in the basement. Right. Is essentially functioning as their bedroom. Right. That is twice associated with problematic gaming. So it's like commonly called addiction.
- [27:35]
A
Sure.
- [27:36]
B
So. And there's many reasons for that, right? Time management. You can't see them. You don't know how much they're on it. But I think that one of the advantages to having games in shared spaces, no matter what size screen it's on, the advantage that gives is that then it's happening in sort of the public consciousness of the family.
- [27:58]
A
Some level of connection is present with humans.
- [28:02]
B
Exactly. And screen time is often filling a function for adults. This is true for me.
- [28:08]
A
Right.
- [28:08]
B
I am most often making dinner when my kid is playing video games or on a tablet. But they are going to. They're commenting or they're, you know, they're saying something or it's on the tv and I can at least like every few minutes make some sort of passing comment about something, right? Exactly. Sometimes parents will be like, but I don't know anything about the game. I'm like, I don't know anything about. Like, I know I'm gaming literate, but that doesn't actually mean I really know that much of what my kid is playing. We don't play the same things. And I think about as a teacher, you know, I have students I've interacted with who have myriad hobbies I know nothing about.
- [28:52]
A
Right.
- [28:52]
B
And if a kid told me they played lacrosse, I don't know anything about lacrosse. I can't even tell you if there's positions in lacrosse. But I would ask, right?
- [29:01]
A
Sure.
- [29:02]
B
I'd be like, oh, wow. Like, I don't know anything. Like, are you. What team are you on? Like, I'd ask these general questions. I don't care about lacrosse. I care about the person. And it's the same thing when our kid is sequestered into another room on a device. There's some messaging there, whether or not we might intend it and whether or not every kid's going to absorb it this way. But there can be some messaging of, like, this is a thing that I do. My adult doesn't care about this. This is just a thing for me. I'm going to do this on my own and I'm going to keep it to myself. And by just kind of having it in a space where there's just any amount of conversation that even could be happening. It doesn't even have to, but it could be. It's just opening that door enough to show that, like, hey, I'm aware. Like, I'm at least aware. And I might not think it's the very best thing you do with your time, but I Recognize it's something you do with your time. And then if I'm even noticing, like, maybe I notice that they seem really happy about something. And maybe right after this, we're going for a walk or we're getting in the car, I can easily use that as a pivot and a connection point. Like, hey, what was going on? You seem so excited. Something big must have happened. Like, tell me about it. In the same way we would if they were, I don't know, building a puzzle and they, like, finished it.
- [30:27]
A
Exactly. Bringing the relational connectivity to something that's important to your kid.
- [30:32]
B
Right. And the point is, I care about this thing because I care about the person interested in it. That's the message that we want them to get. Because again, particularly with online stuff, so many parents are like, but I are so concerned about nefarious things on the Internet. And I am not going to tell you you shouldn't be concerned about that. But if you want your kid to come to you when something unsafe is happening on the Internet, how can they do that if they can't come to you when something safe is happening on the Internet? If they don't feel like they can come to you about something happy that they did in their game? Because all we think is, what a waste of time. They're not going to come to us when they see something unsafe because what's their fear going to be? That we're going to blame the screen, that we're going to blame the game.
- [31:24]
A
Exactly.
- [31:25]
B
So even starting from that place of, yeah, I understand this is important to you, I want to know more because it's important to you, then that lays the foundation for that future. Digital literacy.
- [31:36]
A
Digital literacy, yes. And I could not agree more because it makes sense that a lot of us have this. We're kind of keeping score, and sometimes it pops out of us because we're really frustrated. And we feel, like you said, pitted against a corner ultimately, of, like, damned if I do, I'm damned if I don't. I feel like this thing is inherently bad. I feel shame and guilt when I actually use it. But like I said, if you need to cook dinner in peace, like, your nervous system needs that, all the things. But we need to have as much as we can, kind of a neutral acceptance of this aspect of our culture's existence so that we can not create the experience for our child of, if I tell my parent about something that was scary, they're going to take away something I really love. Like, it's just another tick on the. On the Con column of the pros and cons. And so. So I love the way you talked about that. And I think too, I want to talk about pulling them, helping them to get off the screen. Right. The transition off. And I'm thinking too about what you're saying about seeing the good parts and seeing the wins connect before redirect. Like, can we just sit down for a minute with a cup of tea or coffee and just put our body near them and just lay eyes on that thing for five minutes and be like, whoa, you really got better at that level. You were really frustrated about it two days ago. So that's going to do wonders also for our being able to pull them back in relationship and then help them leave the vortex of dopamine hits. That is the technology world they were existing in until we tried to bring them back into the 3D world of our living room, which is a shock to the system.
- [33:13]
B
Right, I'm glad you're bringing that up. And this came up in another interview I did recently where dopamine has become this four letter word where actually a follower just sent me an article about, and I had not heard of this, about parents who are trying to basically avoid dopamine with their kids. And I kind of looked at it just like kind of gobsmacked, but also thinking like, well, yeah, this is kind of what's going to happen when we only talk about dopamine as if it is always exclusively bad and always exclusively associated with things that we also label as bad, like screens or drugs, right? Or quote unquote, hedonistic pleasure, bad food or whatever.
- [34:01]
A
Sure, sure.
- [34:02]
B
But I mean, nothing is as simple as we would love for it to be sometimes, especially when presented on social media like, you know, dopamine is not just this rogue agent that's creating your own, right? And there's different ways that we are going to receive that and all brains and all people are going to be different with how they receive it. But dopamine is literally how our brain knows that we like and want more of something. And so literally anything you enjoy is going to give you some of that hormone because that's literally how you know you like it. So you cannot truly avoid it unless you don't do anything you like, which is like a horrible way to live, right? Like when I get, I like to hike, right? When I hike and I get to the top of a mountain, I am absolutely getting dopamine. Totally. Am I getting some other hormones with that too? Because I'm exerting myself and I may be connected with others, like, totally. Is it different from the dopamine I feel when I'm scrolling my phone? Because I just, like, I want to distract myself. Yes, it is different, sure. But my point is, is when we kind of talk unilaterally as if like dope, using this term of like, oh, yeah, they're using it for the dopamine. Then again, it's putting us in this place of thinking like, okay, so I guess the goal is to avoid dopamine. But no, the goal, like you said, is to help our kids understand how these things even function in their lives and bring in more information so that they can understand how this might feel different. And like you said, with ending screen time. Yeah. Their brain has been extremely highly engaged. Their body has been sedentary.
- [35:53]
A
Such a good point.
- [35:55]
B
There is a literal disconnect. And then especially if we come in and we're like, it's time to turn it off, turn it off, turn it off, turn it off. Right. And then they are upset. Frankly, it is unrealistic for us to expect that to go any differently because of course they're upset if they're getting no warning and they're not really getting much of like an off ramp. Yeah, they're probably going to be upset. If I walked up to you when you were in the middle of the season finale of your favorite show and said, we have to get in the car right now, right now. You can turn it off or I will. You would be mad.
- [36:33]
A
Yes, I would.
- [36:34]
B
And if my, if my response to you was, I knew it, I knew it. That show is giving you too much dopamine, Like, I mean, that would feel so invalidating. Not just of, like, of you. Right? Like of you and your humanity, but also of the actual, like, buy in that you have to the thing. TV is a little different. It's more passive. But with something like video games, there is a lot of literal effort that goes into those things. And we would not come up to our kid as they are putting the final block on a block tower and be like, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. I know you've been working on it for an hour, but it's not a big deal. No, we would actually recognize that that's a big deal. But when they finally mined the last iron they need in Minecraft, we somehow don't see it as the same effort. It is still effort.
- [37:25]
A
Right.
- [37:26]
B
Like, the emotions are. Are the. Are just as real. So I've talked about that before. You talked about just that last Little connection. I've talked before about doing what I call like a. Like a final minute, like whatever you want to call it, but just sitting down on the couch for literally a minute and depending on your kid. Right. It might be. Tell me what you're doing. It might be. I'm going to watch and say absolutely nothing. Sure.
- [37:55]
A
But eyeballs are in that direction. Exactly right.
- [37:59]
B
But just something to. Just your presence is there. I'm reminding them of the physicality of somebody else. I'm going to kind of bring them back in. We're going to talk about what's happening next. I can remind them of, like, oh, my gosh, you've made so much progress. I know you probably want to finish it today. I bet you'll be able to tomorrow. Reminding them, yes, this will be available again. I'm not saying goodbye to this thing forever. My adult understands this. That can just completely change the way that goes. Can we do that every time? No. Are they gonna be able to do that every time? Probably not. Are we still gonna have to, you know, sometimes have those really difficult ends? Yeah, we totally are. But we also have to do that when we leave friends houses or when we have to put boundaries around bedtime that we haven't had to do in months. And we recognize that. Yeah, sometimes we just have to do that to remind them that it's still there. And that's part of them growing up, and that's part of us being. Being their adult.
- [38:59]
A
Totally. And I'm thinking always about secure attachment. We talk about that a lot in my world and how much a facet of it is entering your child's world. Right. Like showing interest in whatever it is that's important to them. And sometimes also, like, we. I know we're also maxed out. And my community is really healing our trauma bodies from socially sanctioned parenting methods. Who's not? I mean, my God. But. But, you know, it can feel so hard to play. And I've been meaning to do a reel about this. Of just going to plop your body down on the sofa next to your kiddo and just watching what they're watching, like, that can be entering their world. And that doesn't even require us to, like, be imaginative or playful. I mean, that can be really important to our kiddo. Right. And you know that. That, like, pulled back into relationship can go a lot smoother when, of course, the attachment relationship is stronger, which can be supported in so many other realms. And I loved what you said around, you know, the brain is very active and engaged with Games especially, but also, you know, passively watching a screen, YouTube, what have you. And the body is sedentary. So do you have thoughts on how to really support the body even during gaming, or how can we make it as healthy as humanly possible for our children?
- [40:20]
B
Right. And obviously, you know, how, like, what health is going to be is going to be different for everybody. This is one reason that I really try to prioritize telling people, you know, you get to decide whether or not something is a good fit for your family.
- [40:35]
A
Sure, exactly.
- [40:36]
B
Instead of, instead of focusing solely on, like, how quickly does the camera change? I'm like, you know what? Pay attention to whether or not this is working for you. Right. Is it working for your family? Right. If I'm showing my kid 30 minutes of the slowest television show in the
- [40:56]
A
world, Mr. Rogers, the old reruns.
- [40:59]
B
Well, what I really think is funny about those arguments of, like, how quickly the screen is changing.
- [41:04]
A
Tell us.
- [41:06]
B
What I find so amusing about that is that I'm like, okay, so, like, if they were to watch, like, a movie that's a single shot, that should be apparently the absolute best thing they could watch.
- [41:19]
A
Right?
- [41:20]
B
Like, I think about a movie like 1917, which was, like, came out a few years ago, and it's. It's a single shot. I'm like, oh, okay, so that. That frame is 2 hours and 15 minutes long. So that's better. Oh, my God. Than Cocomelon, right?
- [41:34]
A
Cocomelon. What? So I do have a lively. I, you know, I do have a lively chain with some mom friends that I just blasted out like, 45 minutes ago. And I got, of course, like, 20,000 responses. What do you all want me to ask? And Coco Melon definitely got mentioned for my mama of little. Like, what's the scuttlebutt with Cocoa Melon? Is it bad or is it good?
- [41:54]
B
Well, okay, so this brings me back to my thing of, like, you get to decide whether or not something is working for you.
- [41:58]
A
Yeah.
- [41:58]
B
Like, you get to decide that. If you notice that I put on Cocomelon for 30 minutes, and then I have to spend 25 minutes, like, getting my child back to reality after a meltdown. That doesn't sound help. That doesn't sound like a good balance to me.
- [42:14]
A
Sure, sure, sure.
- [42:14]
B
You're having to invest 25 minutes to get 30. That doesn't sound good.
- [42:18]
A
Right. Not a good investment.
- [42:19]
B
Right. But if your kid's watching 30 minutes of Cocomelon and it's zero to five minutes afterward, that sounds like that might be working. For you, Is it also something that you like? Does it benefit? Like, do you enjoy what it brings to your family? Are you bothered having to hear those songs a whole lot? Does it represent something you want them to learn about? Right.
- [42:40]
A
Is it the hill that you visit at nighttime when you're sleeping?
- [42:43]
B
Like, I have, I have friends, I have quite a few friends who absolutely will not let their, their kids ever watch Paw Patrol because they do not like the way that it glorifies police.
- [42:53]
A
Sure.
- [42:54]
B
It has nothing to do with shot length. And I'm like, absolutely, totally. It's not working for you.
- [43:00]
A
But there's no merit to that concept of the quick transitions. Because I've even seen. I didn't mean to cut you off, but no, no. I've even like sat in with my kid watching some kids YouTube, which is a whole nother topic. But you know, I watch these seemingly. I watch these videos sometimes and it's a presenter and I feel like I'm developing ADHD in real time. Like my brain hurts because it's just like stimming and constant change and it feels uncomfortable to my brain of just having to follow all these threads and it feels like it is affecting the developing brain, consuming it. And so again, I haven't fully delved into that research, but I've even noticed for me, I'm like, oh my God, they're just going in a million different circles. And it's exhausting for me to consume this right now. And I feel it in my body.
- [43:50]
B
Totally. Well, people doing things to continue, people's engagement is different than like how it might be affecting someone's brain. So I mean, I can't speak to like what that might result in for you or your child. But, you know, the good thing about neurodivergence is that all brains are good brains.
- [44:12]
A
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I'm not here to say that. Yeah.
- [44:16]
B
And that, you know, watching, like watching cocomelon is not gonna make a neurotypical brain become a neurodivergent brain. That is how that works.
- [44:23]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [44:24]
B
And if there is media telling you that that is not only preying on your fear, that is also incredibly ableist. What are we saying about a neurodivergent brain? If we are holding it up as the bad outcome of doing something that millions of families cannot avoid doing because we have failed to support them systemically. Like, this is the hill on which I will die. I never actually answered your question about central tenets, but like, if. But I've said this before in other interviews and I And I made this some pretty successful content. If, if our focus is on, like, if what we're. If our messaging that we're hearing around screens is supposed to be what is best for kids, but we are not actually targeting the systemic inequalities that are necessitating a reliance on screens to begin with. That is not actually caring about children. That's just fear mongering. And especially I just talked about this the other day. Like, if we're seeing claims like this, particularly in online spaces, something I always ask myself is, does this make sense? Right? Like if a claim like fast screen changes will make your kid's brain seem like they have adhd, I'm like, okay, does it make sense that all forms of media in any variation delivered in any way would do this unequivocally to all brains? Like, no, I don't think you could probably make that argument. Like, I don't think any study could do that. Right. There's probably a lot of nuance missing there. Then the other thing I ask myself is, is this person selling me something? Right? Are they telling me this because they're trying to empower my parenting, or are they telling me this so I will be scared and pay them for the solution to the problem that they just told me I have? So to wrap this back up into the cocoa melon thing.
- [46:28]
A
Yeah.
- [46:29]
B
So a lot of the claims around cocomelon and fast screen change, like how. How fast the. The image on a screen is changing exactly, comes from. There's been a couple of studies on this, but one in particular, I have a reel about this, but I cannot remember when the study was from. What I can remember is that it did not involve cocomelon. So people are putting that label on it and tying it in. But it was a study of four year olds and they watched nine minutes and that's important. They watched nine minutes of two different television shows and then they tried to complete a task that I think looked at their executive functioning skill. And the result of the study was that the show with faster changes was correlated with worse outcomes in their executive functioning tasks. And what is often not revealed when people like cite this is that the shows in question, the show that was fast paced was. The show that was fast paced was spongebob squarepants, which is.
- [47:41]
A
I know, I've heard about this. Yeah.
- [47:44]
B
This was not. It's not appropriate for four year olds. Right. It is rated for kids seven and up. So they're showing them something that's not even appropriate for them. Also, how many four year olds are going to have seen SpongeBob SquarePants. Probably very few. So they're probably like, oh my gosh, this is new. And like I've never seen this before and now I'm hyper focused on this. Also, how long is a Spongebob episode? They're 11 minutes long. If I stop nine minutes into an 11 minute show, what happens? I am stopping at the pinnacle of the plot. That would be like me coming in. When you finally figure out who did it in an episode of Law and Order and say stop now, put this puzzle together and then being shocked that you're not very good at it.
- [48:29]
A
Well, it goes into not honoring our kids humanity. Right. Essentially. Right.
- [48:33]
B
And the slow show in that study was ku, which is a show that like a lot of parents absolutely hate.
- [48:43]
A
I know what you're talking about. It's from PBS Kids.
- [48:45]
B
Yeah, it's C A I, L L O U.
- [48:49]
A
Sure.
- [48:50]
B
A lot of parents do not like that kid in that show. So I think it's so interesting because it focused on one extremely specific metric and it ignored all of the other things where I'm like, I wouldn't show my kid the slow show. Right. Because maybe it's not a good fit, maybe I don't like it, maybe whatever. There's a lot more that goes into it than just how quickly the screen thing is changing. And again, I do find this very funny. Video games. How often is the frame changing in video games? Very infrequently, because the frame is literally following you. But we don't hear people being like using that as an argument that somehow that's going to be better. Right. So it's so interesting to me that sometimes we find these pieces of data and we kind of hang our hat on it in one way, but if we were to even think about it for a second from the other side of like, wait, so wouldn't a video game be really good? Then it's like, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. Right. The point is still screens are bad, right?
- [49:51]
A
It's so nuanced. And I love what you're saying because that's what I'm so passionate about too, is helping parents feel confident and be become the expert in their own family. Because ultimately that's what you are and trusting yourself and your own intuition and really, really honing that in. But it feels, and I totally get exactly what you're saying about there's like we hear one thing, we say, got it. That is bad. Not assessing further, moving on. And we're Freaking busy. And like you said, takes so much time to figure out how to do the freaking parental controls. Right? Like, but it just, it just feels like it's hard to trust ourselves when this like, pantheon of technology is just not here to serve our families and our brains and bodies. Probably, like you said, it's a consumer product. It's an industry that even manipulates our neurochemistry to get us addicted. And so it feels really hard to trust that. But I hear you saying that and I really like it. I mean, that we can trust our kids response and we can base it off of the uniqueness of our child. Right. And our family and really make those calls based on what we're seeing to whatever degree within the realm of the playpen that we feel good about, based on what we have educated ourselves about.
- [51:04]
B
Totally. And knowing that just as there is a whole, like you used the word pantheon, just as this whole spectrum of things where it comes like food to once again talk about food, right? Going from like unprocessed to ultra process to all these things in between, right. We might recognize that like, yes, a Cheeto has been engineered to make you want to eat a lot of Cheetos, but I also know that if I don't ever let my kid eat Cheetos, my kid's gonna end up one day eating a whole lot of Cheetos and having to figure that out the hard way without me there to support them. And then looking at something like screens, which is, you know, we say screens and that means thousands of different things because of how broad they are, you know. Yes, there are gonna be apps and algorithms that are trying to get you to stay on longer. Yes, there are gonna be games that are trying to get you to spend money. And there are also gonna be apps or games that are not, that are just trying to give you a fulfilling experience or can actually benefit your life. And it's so important to be able to figure some of that out alongside your kids so that you can then give them that support so that hopefully they can figure that out for themselves.
- [52:20]
A
Beautiful. And I love the way you've talked about, you know, as far as helping them be these internally little motivated, self aware consumers, you know, before just coming in and saying, get off the screen. Hey, when will you know that you're done?
- [52:33]
B
Huh?
- [52:33]
A
Right? When will you know that you're done? Dinner's in about 20 minutes. You know, we're the substitute frontal lobe. This is what's going on in this environment that we coexist in, Right? Like Giving you some small reins of when will you know that you're done, how do you. And then how do you feel when you come off in a very neutral way? I really want to keep building our kids awareness into their bodies. And so how do you feel? Right. Like, was that too much? Was that not enough? Like, was it a good time of day? Like, we're going to keep figuring out when is ideal for you to do this thing. Is it hard to focus on your homework, like because you did it first or is it good to get out of the way so you're not thinking about it again, just like collaborating, really inviting that problem solving and that self awareness so that again, like they're set up for that experience and they know themselves. They're experts in themselves. Right. And how they work so that they can apply that when you're not around.
- [53:28]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And knowing that that is not as simple, like way more complicated than just, oh, we're gonna make a schedule or I'm always gonna have screens after homework. It's way, way harder. It is way harder to be able to be flexible enough as the adult to do that experimentation. Because in order to find what works, you have to find 50 things that don't. I get it. We do not always have the capacity to do that. Totally. So like in my household, it's a lot of deciding, like what is something we can even let be a variable here. There are a lot of things that are not going to be variables. But can I make one aspect of this a variable and then as you said, bring them in to assess how it was so that we're slowly handing over that responsibility. It's not all at once. That's not, that's not going to work for anybody. But we can build it in over time. And I think that way, like you said, we can also notice along with them and use it as data. I see this a lot like use it as data. And if I see something I don't like, what is one thing I can do differently and see if it makes any difference. And that neutrality allows me to see it that way without internalizing it for me or my kid.
- [54:46]
A
Exactly. And being focused on the process of self discovery and learning instead of trying to get our kid to agree with us that video games are terrible. Right. Like that's just not gonna be. We need to really just keep moving into that bucket more and more of. I'm just. My job is to be this guide and to help them learn how to navigate this. And I love the way you also Talk about as a parent, I was literally saying this to a client earlier today. It can be and is a huge resource for us when we need peace and we need low stimulation and we need rest or we're healing from trauma or we're cooking dinner and we just need to have a zone where we're not. Especially when they're little, my God, like they're just, they're physically like audibly just interrupting so much. And it's so much for a healthy nervous system to really, you know, be exposed to. And so I love the way you talk about like not feeling guilty, like not shaming yourself for. Yeah. Like they watched an hour of cocoa melon. I can't help it, you know, while I'm cooking dinner. And I feel I've made this choice because I'm balancing everyone's needs and I feel good about that. And so just really intentionally not giving yourself a lashing because you utilize a resource that serves you because you deserve for something to serve you so that you can be a more regulated parent.
- [56:00]
B
Yeah. And if, and if literally all it's giving you is time, that is enough.
- [56:04]
A
Oh yeah.
- [56:05]
B
But yeah, a reframe I do around that pretty frequently is instead of asking like, what is this doing to my kid? What is this screen time doing to my kid? Instead asking, what is this screen time allowing me to do for my child? And that completely shifts the conversation because if their 30 minutes of screen time is going to or their hour of cocomelon, as you said, is going to allow me to make dinner and answer some emails and not get spoken to and have some time to decompress and, and therefore I am going to be a more present regulated caregiver that is benefiting them, are benefiting from that. I am too, but so are they. And when we're thinking about screens as tools, we have to remember that it's not just is it a tool for my child's education? No, it's am I using it as a tool for me, that is just as valid a consideration.
- [56:59]
A
Hear, hear. And we have tons of research that tells us how harmful and traumatic, you know, relationship can be between parent and child. And so I really, really focus on allowing my parents to give themselves that grace as they're healing their nervous systems and learning for the first time what it looks like to be a secure, empathic, connected caretaker that can ride the stress response wave with their child while they're learning for the first time as an adult. And so I always say screen time is way less harmful than a DYSREGULATED scary caretaker. So we do know for sure how impactful that is, and I think that we need to really, you know, give ourselves that tool. Sorry.
- [57:42]
B
Is one of my most popular reels I've ever made. Said screen time, like, instead of, like, what's screen time replacing? Well, sometimes screen time is replacing me losing my shit.
- [57:52]
A
Exactly. A thousand percent.
- [57:55]
B
Yeah. And as one of my followers put it, which I thought was perfect, screen time is better than scream time.
- [58:01]
A
Yes. And I. For me, I mean, I did not have the nervous system. I've been really facing some major intergenerational trauma, as you do these days. And I didn't have the nervous system that was flexible and regulated enough to be as connected as I wanted to. So I would use it to. To do my practices, to educate myself, and then it was quality over quantity with my kid. Right. My interaction with them, I wanted it to be high quality. And there was a long period of time where I had to use screens to make that happen. And I feel good about that. Yeah, I feel absolutely good about that. And I advise my clients to do the same. A little more. Bluey. Bluey's great. We love Bluey. There's nothing wrong with Bluey. Right. No one can say anything negative about Bluey, I bet. But I really want parents to allow themselves to use that as a tool, especially while they're healing their nervous systems and just honoring their own bodies and their own wellness. Because we got to. Yeah. Well, I know we're wrapping up in a minute. I did not ask half the questions I wanted to. Another thing, too. I just wanted to say I really would love to create a culture, and I'm navigating this as well, where before your child starts to have sleepovers, we need to talk to the parent about, what are your controls on screens? What kind of protective devices do you have? Because I'm really concerned about my kids. I know it will probably happen, but being exposed to things in other people's houses, and so I want to have the big girl pants on or the brave pants to come up and say, hey, can we chat about what your protective measures are for what they can be exposed to at your house and how you navigate that. Don't you think?
- [59:37]
B
Yeah, I think for me, the way that that would feel more comfortable is just to state what you'd be okay with instead of, like, tell me about everything you've set up. You're right. That would kind of put me in a place of like, oh, God, like, sure, now I'm frozen, staring at this person. But instead, if I were like, hey, in case it comes up, like, we're cool with TV, not so cool with them just watching random YouTube videos. If that's something that you can avoid, we'd really appreciate that. Beautiful.
- [60:09]
A
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [60:11]
B
Because also, like, I don't want it to make it seem like I am gonna be, like, micromanaging this other adult who's doing me a solid of caring for my child. Right.
- [60:18]
A
That ain't eas. You're so right. No, thank you.
- [60:21]
B
But also just like, hey, cool if you have video games, like, we're cool with anything rated E for everyone. Right? Like, it could be that. It could be that broad. Or like, absolutely. If they're gonna play games, I just ask that, like, they stop by certain time, like, whatever your parameter is, like, choose the thing that's most important and, like, put that out there and. Great.
- [60:43]
A
I love it. Thank you. I'm so glad I squeezed that last one in. That was for me, you guys.
- [60:46]
B
Or if you're on the receiving end, if you're hosting. Sure. Hey, hey, is it cool with that?
- [60:50]
A
You.
- [60:50]
B
If I. I was gonna offer for them to watch list movie name. Right. Are you cool with that? We have Disney plus. Is it cool if they watch a Pixar movie? Or, like, we have Mario Kart. Are you okay if they play Mario Kart? Yeah.
- [61:08]
A
So good. Well, I'm definitely gonna link all your stuff in the podcast. Notes. Show notes. That's what they call them. And people will get to get into your universe, more and more people, because you have just created such a. An informative place that honors the complexity of this issue. And I'm so glad you came. Is there any lasting thoughts you just want our cycle breaking fellow parents to know?
- [61:33]
B
I feel like we have really touched on a lot of it. Yeah. No, the only tenet I didn't say before, but I think it's very clear through this conversation, is that in my opinion, screen time should be benefiting the whole family. So it's really figuring out is what you're doing benefiting everybody and everybody includes you. And so thinking about you as part of this assessment, I think has been sometimes missing and is really important. And so if you want to see more or check out what I have or see resources from me, you can find pretty much everything at TheGamer Educator on Instagram. I do have a website. It's not. It doesn't have very much on it, but a lot of my stuff, pretty much everything lives in Instagram or I can direct you to it from there, but. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
- [62:21]
A
My God, I'm so glad you were here. And one last thought. I mean, I've been meaning to make a real about this too, but I thought, if you don't believe in implicit memory stored in the body, go play video games you haven't played since 1991. It all comes back immediately. So clearly that body keeps the memory and the score, and you don't even have to choose it. It's unbelievable. And what I also realized, too, when I was teaching my kids how to play, like, Mario 3, you.
- [62:44]
B
It's.
- [62:44]
A
It's mistake, mistake, mistake. Fall in the hole. Like, literally, when I was watching them for the first time navigate, like, the controls and their fingers and all of it, I'm like, oh, this is such a metaphor for life. You have to make a million mistakes before you get something right, and I
- [62:57]
B
can't do it for you.
- [62:59]
A
Like, I'm so good at this stuff. I got it. I'm a. I'm a rock star at Mario 3.
- [63:03]
B
It all.
- [63:03]
A
It's all there. But, like, I cannot do it for you. And I will watch you die, and I will watch you start over, and then I. I will watch you die, and then I will watch you start over. Right? It's a metaphor for how life goes.
- [63:14]
B
Right? And then we can also watch them do that and build up tenacity to be willing to fail a thousand times. And when they do it and they pay off, that win feels just as real as if they, like, scored a goal in soccer. Because it is, like, it's skill. They're figuring it out.
- [63:30]
A
Exactly. And that.
- [63:31]
B
That emotion and that intrinsic motivation.
- [63:36]
A
Good Lord.
- [63:36]
B
It's just as. It's just as real.
- [63:38]
A
I know. And I'm like, y', all, this is a part of it. This is how it goes. You're gonna. You're gonna just keep getting killed by that glacially slow mushroom dude until you. Your thumbs, and your muscle memory realize what it takes to get over it. Like, this is how. This is how it goes. So thank you again, Ash. And I will. I'll just be excited to share and keep connected as Internet co workers that we are. And thanks for what you bring to the collective.
- [64:02]
B
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be here.
- [64:08]
A
Thank y' all so much for being here and spending your precious time and energy and brain space on this world that I'm creating. And please, if this feels resonant with you and you think of people that you want to share this with. I want this to be spread far and wide. It's not about me. It's about the work and the ideas and how much we need to elevate our environment and have as many of our friends and family and as many parents and people waking up to themselves, their own power and how good life can get. Love, you guys.