← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
Everything Is A Story: Journalist Nick Bilton Thinks AI Might End Humanity & How Stories Could Save Us
01:55:48
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
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- [01:25]
Nick Bilton
I'm not worried about AI destroying humanity. I'm worried about Sam Altman running an AI company that he will lead to destroy humanity if this technology goes wrong.
- [01:34]
Rich Roll
It can go quite wrong.
- [01:35]
Nick Bilton
Today we're speaking with Nick Bilton, former New York Times columnist and Vanity Fair special correspondent. I was a reporter in Silicon Valley covering tech and I do believe that the tech elite are evil. The fear that we're all going to be killed by by AI is actually part of their fundraising. You've got Sam and Elon and all these people out there being like, we're gonna die. We need more money. And the bucket loads of cash come in and it's all nonsense.
- [02:02]
Rich Roll
They've crafted a certain public image tailored to what people seem to like.
- [02:08]
Nick Bilton
I also think that there's another thing. The biggest lesson I've learned in my life is that.
- [02:16]
Rich Roll
Nick, it's so great to meet you. Thank you for doing this. I'm so excited to talk to you.
- [02:19]
Nick Bilton
Thank you for having me. This is very, very exciting.
- [02:22]
Rich Roll
You're somebod been reading for so many years, you know, at least going back 10 or 11 years with your reporting in the New York Times and you've covered Silicon Valley and the tech titans. And there is an obsession that we have with these billionaires, the, the, the technocratic class, these people who are, you know, lording over the devices and the apps that we're all using every single day. And these are people that you have spent time with who are also, for the most part, masterful storytellers and myth makers. What can you share about what you know about like people like Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos or Zuck or these people that is a common thread with respect to their myth making superpowers that, you know, we, we'd all be kind of better off for understanding?
- [03:21]
Nick Bilton
Well, I do think that there is a through line. They're all obsessed with their own self image, their legacy, and they are all obsessed with telling a story. And you can see that through one very simple metric, and that is how many people are on the communications teams of these companies. And hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of. Ironically, Elon fired all of his communication folks because he could do it better. But in his mind, but they are always telling a story. And look, I mean, like, Elon's a perfect example. Let's take the Boring Company for a little storytelling lesson here. Right? So he was driving to work one day, there was a bunch of traffic. He tweets. This is years ago. He tweets there should be tunnels under the ground where you can, you know, you can drive so that there's no traffic in la. Next thing you know, he gets to the office at SpaceX and he's like, the tweet's getting a million responses and he's like, let's start the Boring Company and, and we're going to build these tunnels. I went to SpaceX for a meeting a few months later and there was a, a dirt patch across the street with one of these big tunnel boring machines. And I said to someone I was meeting with, I was like, what is that? And he's like, oh, it's just, it's like a little show Elon does to show that he's gon build these tunnels underground. It's never really going to happen, you know. And yeah, they've done some, but this was years ago, right? They never, they never built. There are no tunnels under la. I drove on the freeway to get here.
- [04:59]
Rich Roll
There's, there is that sort of small network of tunnels under Vegas. Right? Did he do that? Yeah, but it's like, it doesn't really seem to alleviate the traffic problem. It's sort of a novelty.
- [05:08]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. It's also incredibly claustrophobic.
- [05:10]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [05:11]
Nick Bilton
And people have panic attacks in them all the time. But but the point is, that's a great story, you know, and when you look at these guys, they do this over and over and over again, and I think that they. And then they start to believe their own story. You know, I always. I got to spend as a reporter covering tech. I spent time with all of them for very long periods of time. And there was always this. You know, you could see this thing happen. Like, I knew Zuck and Jack Dorsey and all those guys and Kevin Systrom and all of them when they were just starting out. And then there's this kind of shock of like, whoa, how'd that happen? I'm a billionaire. And then there's this like, I'm a billionaire and I'm the one that makes the decisions and screw you. And they just believe the story that gets told about them or the story they tell about themselves. I mean, I wrote the book on Twitter and one of the greatest quotes someone gave me was the greatest brand. Sorry, the greatest product that Jack Dorsey ever made was Jack Dorsey. And I think that sums up a lot of these people in Silicon Valley. They, they create this product that is themselves often taken from Steve Jobs and
- [06:29]
Rich Roll
his reality distortion field.
- [06:31]
Nick Bilton
Reality distortion field. And I have a funny story about that. And he. And then, and then they believe the story, and then sometimes the story breaks them, which is what happened to Bezos.
- [06:42]
Rich Roll
So tell that job story, because then I have a follow up related to Jack and these other guys.
- [06:47]
Nick Bilton
So when I was, when I was first starting out as a reporter at the Times, I, I get a. I was writing a story. It was about the iPhone and something related to it that's not important. And I was writing a story about it and. And I called Apple PR and I said, hey, I'm writing the story. And you know, and the PR woman says, give me a second. And then puts me on hold and says, steve's going to call you in a little bit. So the guy who ran the, the PR department was this guy named Steve Dowling. So I thought it was Steve Dowling who's going to call me. And. And instead that, she was like, no, it's Steve Jobs. And I was like, steve Jobs is
- [07:36]
Rich Roll
going to call me.
- [07:37]
Nick Bilton
And, you know, I'm like a young reporter at the Times. I'm like, is this how it works? So I hung up the phone and he didn't call. And I went out. I went out for dinner that night and I get this weird 4, 1, 5, whatever it was, phone call. And I answered, had a couple of drinks, and it was like, hey, it's Steve Jobs. And I was like, oh, shit. And so I like, go outside. I'm trying to take notes on my phone. He was on the phone with me for 45 minutes an hour. He wouldn't get off.
- [08:04]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [08:05]
Nick Bilton
And he was telling me that my story was wrong and this, that and the other and so on. And. And I remember I went in the next day and I wrote the story the way I had been told by him, and. And I published it. And then afterwards, I was like, wait, I wasn't wrong.
- [08:21]
Rich Roll
Like, you just got. You got snuggle completely played.
- [08:23]
Nick Bilton
And John Markov, who. Who had been a tech reporter for many, many years at the time, said. He came over to me and he said one word. He said, not his three words. He said, the reality. The Steve Jobs reality distortion field.
- [08:34]
Rich Roll
So four words.
- [08:35]
Nick Bilton
And he said. I was like, what do you mean? He goes. He's. Every time. It's what he does, he's like, he can change the way you feel about something. And it happened. I interacted with him a lot and. And it would happen every time. And I got. I got good at. At realizing, oh, it's the reality distortion field is coming on. And. And then he stopped calling me because I wouldn't listen to him anymore. But. But he, you know, he was a master at making you believe the thing that he wanted you to believe. And I think that people, you know, they looked at him, a lot of these tech titans, like, that's who I want to be when I grow up. And people. And what's fascinating from a storytelling perspective is they chose which part of him they wanted to tell as their story. So the assholes picked the asshole and made themselves more justifiable than the product. People picked the product, you know, And I think, you know, I think he was largely more influential in the way these people think about themselves than anyone in human history, quite frankly.
- [09:41]
Rich Roll
Yeah, these people who become billionaires, and it has this warping effect on their perspective on the world when they can literally, you know, basically create seismic shock shifts in society by dint of a simple decision. And understanding that story is more important than truth. And being able to wield a story that is in service to whatever that person wants people to believe can literally change everybody's perspective on that person. Dating all the way back to, like, Jack Dorsey's origin story with Twitter, I had a version of that. That kind of reality distortion experience. I had Jack on the podcast. This is very early on. I went to his house. I basically spent the better part of
- [10:29]
Nick Bilton
a day with him.
- [10:30]
Rich Roll
And I left that experience just enamored with this guy. And I was so charmed by his charisma and his warmth. And I thought, if anybody should be running Twitter, it's this guy. This is a guy who's created a world in which he carves out time to think deeply about these difficult decisions. And I just couldn't imagine, like, I couldn't understand why people were having such issues with him because I had been, you know, I, I had like gone into his environment and, you know, like, sort of marinated in the Jack Dorsey experience and, and, and now looking at kind of like where Jack is now and, and these other people, you know, I, I sort of reflect back on that and was like, was I played? Was that genuine? I still don't know. I like to see the best in people and believe the best in people, but I can't imagine what it's like to be a billionaire who is wielding such unbelievable influence on the world. And I think what happens is with that wealth and that power comes this sort of sense that, well, you were so successful here that you must be right about all these other things, like this galaxy brain kind of mentality that takes over, that then spills into perspectives on politics and culture and all these areas that have nothing to do with being a successful entrepreneur necessarily.
- [11:56]
Nick Bilton
Well, you just summed up everyone in Silicon Valley, every single person who's successful, who's a billionaire that I've ever met. And I've met them all, they all think, oh, I'm the billionaire who is this successful, who, you know, clearly knows what they're doing in this arena. So I know what I'm doing in every single one. And I could cite a million instances where people, you know, I'm an, I'm the world's expert on real estate. I'm the world's expert on COVID 19. I'm the. And it's like. And they, and then, you know, people like Elon, like, you know, Sam Harris is a good friend of mine, and he got into a debate with Elon about COVID 19. And, and Sam proved to be right and Elon stopped talking to him. And that's the mentality, if you're not in my yes man circle, then you're out. And so it becomes this reinforcing, yeah,
- [12:49]
Rich Roll
self reinforcing cycle and all the way to like, hey, is democracy really working? Like, maybe we should go back to some kind of monarchistic society. Like when you see this dark enlightenment movement and these very influential people like Naval Ravikant and the kind of these like, you know, gurus of Silicon Valley who have such outsized influence as a result of becoming successful in technology that is deeply concerning to me because they do wield so much influence. And if, you know, these people say something online, like, people pay attention and listen and you know, kind of now here we are, you know, being lured into the web of, you know, kind of these, these crypto state recessionists where everything is in question and these people know better than any expert in their respective field.
- [13:48]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, and I think that Jack Dorsey is a perfect example because Jack, as I research with the book, he changed the story of how Twitter was founded hundreds of times, quite literally. Like, it was. Like at first it was, he came up with it, you know, on a slide in his park with Biz Stone. And then it was, oh, actually I came up with it when I was a kid in my bedroom watching police scanners. Oh, actually it was in Oakland when I was a babysitter with blue hair. And it all changed. And the reality is he came up with one slither of the idea, as did other people, specifically Noah Glass, as the book talks about. And Noah was written out of history. And the same thing is true with Square. Jack didn't come up with Square. A friend of his did. And he took the idea and so on and so forth. And it's, we just, we just saw it recently, you know, Square just laid off half of their workforce, almost half of their workforce. And Jack cited it as, as AI. Well, actually if you go and look and you actually dig a little further than, oh, almighty tech guru is way ahead of the curve. His employee base has doubled in size in the last few years for no reason other than it's not run well. And so the narrative was, let's get rid of half of the employees and say we're doing because of AI. It's literally back to what it was two years ago.
- [15:21]
Rich Roll
It was just management, poor management decisions
- [15:24]
Nick Bilton
and the stock went up because, and I mean, another example, look at the Tesla stock. Like, Elon can talk about how he is going to have a million taxis, you know, in two years and there's like 12 of them.
- [15:41]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it doesn't matter if it's true or not. It never bears out just like the boring company story. Like he can just say, oh, we're going to have full self driving by this day. And he can move the stock price immediately. And every time you look through the rearview mirror six months later on things that he says, like, these things never end up bearing out, but it doesn't matter. And this is mirrored in the Trump administration. Like it's just rhetoric.
- [16:05]
Nick Bilton
Yeah.
- [16:05]
Rich Roll
And just move on. And there never seems to be any kind of reconciliation or accounting for these statements.
- [16:12]
Nick Bilton
Well, I think it's even like self,
- [16:13]
Rich Roll
like a normal person would think. Yeah, I say these crazy things and they never happen. Maybe I should reflect a little bit on my relationship with truth and veracity and like, what does that say about me? Like, these people don't do that. It doesn't matter. They don't care.
- [16:28]
Nick Bilton
The thing that I think is, is so shocking to me and I do not understand it. I don't know if you have an answer. I don't understand. We are in a world where you could, for the first time in human history, you can have a conversation with machines that can tell you what is right and what is wrong. And for the most part, with the exception of hallucinations and so on and so forth, they can actually detail it. So when you go and ask, you know, Claude or, or Gemini or Chat, whatever you talk to about the history of, of Square's employees and the number and so on and so forth and revenues and, and blah, blah, blah, it will show you. But no one asks these questions. If you go and ask, is it realistic that Tesla is going to have a million self driving cars in this period of time or humanoid robots in your house and so on and so forth. Like we, we. But no one wants to do that. They just say, oh, that's it, quick. And the stock goes flying through the roof and, and everyone's like, all hail Elon. And I think it's like, and Mark Zuckerberg too, with social media and the, and, and it's just, to me, what I don't understand is why don't people ask questions? Why do they just take it as, as gospel?
- [17:44]
Rich Roll
I think it has something to do with the power of storytelling. Like take Zuck. These people who are so image conscious, they've crafted a certain public image tailored to what people seem to like that then becomes, you know, like enamoring to people. Like for some reason. And maybe this is related to like Monarch. Monarchism. Like, like, oh, a leader that I can look up to and I believe in and will fuel my cognitive dissonance. It doesn't matter what's true. Like, I like that guy. And for some reason my affinity for this person makes me feel like I'm in proximity to them.
- [18:22]
Nick Bilton
I also think, I think you're completely right. I also think that there's another Thing. And if I were to say the biggest lesson I've learned in my life as a professional over the last 30 years is that people are just people. They all get headaches and they all have anxiety and they all want to be loved and, and, and they all
- [18:48]
Rich Roll
want to believe that they're good people doing the right thing, you know, acting on behalf of the betterment of society,
- [18:55]
Nick Bilton
and they want to believe that. And I think that what ends up, what happens is because of media, everyone, people become more and more famous and so on and so forth. And we, we look at these people and we're like, like, it's why people get so nervous when they meet celebrities or they meet, you know, leaders. They're just people. Like, it's. I never get nervous when I go and interview someone or when. Or because I'm like, you're just a person. You probably woke up this morning and you didn't sleep well last night because your dog was sick and your kids. All these things that we all experience, but they make it look like it doesn't happen. And I think that. So they create this bullshit narrative around who they are and what they are and that they're going to live forever or that because I'm a billionaire, I'm an expert on everything, and it's all nonsense. And I think once we get to a point where people realize it's nonsense, maybe that's, that's when it changes. But I don't know if people want to believe that it's nonsense.
- [19:50]
Rich Roll
I don't see that happening.
- [19:51]
Nick Bilton
I think that they want it. They believe that these are the gods, right?
- [19:55]
Rich Roll
And now we have AI. So take OpenAI, for example, the storytelling around that and the cognitive dissonance with, you know, the titans that are at the helm of these respective AI companies, who are obviously spinning a yarn and doing some very advanced storytelling around how we should think about this as they kind of accumulate power and are participating in this race towards AGI, et cetera.
- [20:23]
Nick Bilton
Well, what's fascinating about the storytelling around AI is two things. One is the fear that we're all going to be killed by AI is actually true. I genuinely worry about it. But it's also part of their fundraising. And so you've got Sam and Elon and all these people out there being like, we're going to die, we need more money to make sure we don't. And, and, or, you know, and the bucket loads of cash come in. It's all for them. It's about, it's a fundraising mechanism. And the other Thing is, someone said to me, I did a story for Vanity Fair a couple years ago about AI and creativity and how it was going to replace jobs and so on and so forth. And one person said to me, a very clever thinker on this stuff said, I'm not worried about AI destroying humanity. I'm worried about Sam Altman running an AI company that he will lead to destroy humanity or someone else. And the reason for that is because they are so obsessed with being first in the story of, you know, of the first person to create AGI that they put all the other things aside. And the goal is it's about them. It's not about the AI, it's about them as the leader of the AI company. And what's crazy is, you know, wrote in hatching Twitter, this was a white box on a screen that you could type 140 characters into. Look what it did to the world. It changed it. It's the reason Donald Trump is in office. He ran for office many, many, many times before. It's the reason that we have all of the culture we live in today. And that was just a white box with 140 characters. Now there's this new box that we can type into that is way more powerful. And we're all just doing it without thinking about what happened the last time. And, and all these people don't care because they want to be famous and rich and the creator of the last invention.
- [22:21]
Rich Roll
There's lip service to safety considerations, et cetera. But as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to suggest that any real efforts or deep, or deep work is going into ensuring safe, ensuring that, you know, these things have guardrails on them and that they are in public interest. It's just this race forward based on fear and lack. Like, we have to do it before China, et cetera. It's important. I'm the one who's in charge. You should give your money to me. You should trust me. We have no reason to trust any of these people. And all the evidence suggests that this is going to damage us in ways that we can't even possibly begin to imagine. And yet it's so convenient and helpful in the short, short term and entertaining in the way that in an advanced way, in comparison to Twitter and 140 characters allowed us to kind of be lulled into this world of social media that, you know, I think it's pretty clear to everybody right now has deranged us in, in ways we couldn't have imagined when, you know, you wrote Hatching
- [23:26]
Nick Bilton
Twitter, it's deranged us in, in so many ways. And it's. You see it with. You see it with podcasts, funnily enough. You know. Sure.
- [23:37]
Rich Roll
Because the incentive structure.
- [23:38]
Nick Bilton
Incentive structure, like Tucker Carlson, like the, the guests have gotten crazier and crazier. Megyn Kelly, the anger about, you know, fighting with people that she was once close with or, Or Ben Shapiro doing the same thing. It's like they're all, they all just come at each other and then, and then the, you know, the Pod Save America guys, they like, go even deeper on the left because it's. The incentive structure is the more insane and intense and scary and the more I pull back the covers on the real thing, the more views I get and the more crazy we get as society. And it just is the spiral.
- [24:17]
Rich Roll
I think about this all the time. Yeah. Podcasting has become all about they're lying to you or the number one expert who's going to tell you the thing no one wants you to know. And unless you're in platforming, just kind of conspiracy addled people or the person with the hottest, craziest take the extremism across the board on all sides of the spectrum, you have no chance at garnering eyeballs and getting attention. And the incentive structure is such that if you want that, then this is what you need to do. And that's the, the dollars follow. And as somebody who's been doing this show for a very long time, you know, from the very early days into now, it's like, where do we even sit with this anymore? You know, like, there's a reason why I do this show. There's a purpose and a meaning behind it that I care about. And I see these other people and, and, and how, like these other podcasts that have gotten really huge and they're influencing the next generation of podcasters. And it has nothing to do with, like, asking yourself, like, why am I doing this in the first place? What am I hoping to accomplish? It's just like, here's how you get big. Here's how you get attention. It's like, attention for what? Aim for what purpose?
- [25:33]
Nick Bilton
Couldn't agree with you more. And it's like, you know, I thought, I always thought that the debate about whether Hitler was a good person or a bad person wasn't a debate. It's like, bad guy.
- [25:44]
Rich Roll
You know, this is where we're at. And, you know, from 140 characters to this, and people like, well, maybe we should have that Conversation.
- [25:51]
Nick Bilton
Joe Rogan saying, oh, that's interesting about Hitler. It's like, you're like, what are you talking about? It's like, where, how are we, how are these things even a debate? Like, how are they even a conversation? There are way more important things that we should be talking about that are real. And it all comes down to the incentive structure. And this, to me is where, you know, I do believe that the tech elite are evil. Quite honestly, I think that they know exactly what these things do. You know, Facebook knows. There's like so much that has leaked about things that they know that are bad for kids and for society and we. And the same with Instagram and Twitter and all these social platforms and yet. And TikTok and, and they do nothing to try to stop it.
- [26:49]
Rich Roll
Nothing.
- [26:49]
Nick Bilton
And, and to me, look, I don't know if there is a God in the universe or there's some something, but if there is, they're not going through those pearly gates. The, the, the, the things that they have done with intent and the, and the unintentional, but then done nothing about it. You know, look, I mean, look at Snap, for example. There was a period of time that SNAP was, you know, the whole point was to. So people could have disappearing messages and they wouldn't. It was a great intention. Right? We want to make it so that you're not posting things on the Internet that can come back and haunt you later. And then fast forward to a year ago. The number one cause of death among teens in the United States is fentanyl. You know, where the, one of the top places they buy it, snap. And so, and there had to be a congressional hearing for them to even make any changes like these things. There are unintended consequences always, but our responsibility is to fix those. We never know what they are with technology. And then at the same time, there are consequences we know exist. One example is kids should not be using social media like this. It is just so unhealthy. I don't have it on my phone because I can't stop looking at it. And I'm a grown adult who's written about it for 20 something years. And these companies that hide all that data, I just think it's cool. Completely and utterly evil.
- [28:11]
Rich Roll
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- [31:32]
Nick Bilton
Thank you.
- [31:33]
Rich Roll
And you're somebody who has a lot of irons in the fire. You do all of it. Like you make documentaries, you produce, you write, you've done scripted television, you do long form journalism, written for Vanity Fair, you're even in the process of writing the book and the screenplay for this Martin Scorsese movie with the Rock about the Hawaiian Mafia. This has to be perhaps the most high profile project that you've ever worked on.
- [32:04]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, I mean, I definitely have adhd, if you haven't noticed that, but. And I've kind of used it as a superpower to just do all different kinds of. There's a theme which is storytelling, of course, and then there's obviously some subtext to it which is somewhat technology, but not necessarily technology is in devices. Because, you know, the Mafia project you mentioned is set in the 1970s. But. But yeah, I mean, I just, I love to tell stories and I just, I love to take on a new challenge. And I, I don't say that like trying to be hyperbolic or any way, but if I've never done something before, to me that is the most exciting thing because I'm going to figure out how to do it and I'm going to do it differently because I'm not doing the traditional route. And so, yeah, I've done journalism and podcasts and movies and docs and scripted tv, all of it. And, and it's, it's, it's just my ADHD at work.
- [33:01]
Rich Roll
I mean, I, I have adhd. I'm. I can only do one thing at a time. Yeah, like, how does that operate for you?
- [33:07]
Nick Bilton
It's funny, my wife came in the other day into my office and I had two laptops open and I was like working on them. She's like, what are you doing? And I was like. And she took a picture and sent it to a bunch of friends. But I was like, I can work on two projects at once. And she was just like, you're out of your mind.
- [33:23]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's interesting. Mine works in the opposite direction. I can do very well if I'm just put blinders on and focus on one thing. And my wife is somebody who's doing lots of things at the same time. And I'm just always marveling at that. Like, I don't understand how that works.
- [33:37]
Nick Bilton
Do you procrastinate?
- [33:41]
Rich Roll
I do, but I can lock into a flow state pretty easily. If I'm super into the project that I'm working on, and I can lose hours and hours and hours, and I really don't want any interference. Like, I just want to be. Like, I want the world to be. To disappear and just to be immersed in whatever I'm working on, but I can't, like, gear shift very easily.
- [34:03]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, I Gear shift. I don't procrastinate. Not a. Not a procrastinating. Yeah.
- [34:06]
Rich Roll
You don't seem like somebody who has blocked something that ever. How do you think about that?
- [34:12]
Nick Bilton
No, I mean. Well, I think in the age of AI, writer's block doesn't exist anymore.
- [34:16]
Rich Roll
It's.
- [34:16]
Nick Bilton
It's gone. There's no longer a blank page because you've always got something to help you. But. But I. Yeah, I just. If I find myself. If I find the. The gear. Starting to kind of get a little bored, and I'm, you know, I just am like, okay, next project and move that over and work on that. And. And one of the things I learned, interestingly, I think it's. Look, I don't know what we learn and what we have innate and what we find and so on, but I remember at the Times when I was a technology columnist, I would be on deadline sometimes, and I'd have to, like, run home or I'd have to run into the office, and I started writing columns on my phone, on the subway, or something like that, and then I would finish them. And you just kind of. I just learned to just. I could do. I could write anywhere. You know, it just doesn't matter. I'm just kind of zoned in and pick it up on something else, and. And I just kind of parlayed that into all the different kinds of writing I do on all the different projects.
- [35:21]
Rich Roll
You didn't start out with the idea of becoming a writer, did you? I mean, your origin story into the New York Times is super interesting.
- [35:29]
Nick Bilton
I think I'm probably one of the least likely people to have ended up as a columnist in the New York Times. When I was there, there was a world. I was like, I was gonna end up in jail, quite honestly. I mean, it's literally like, I grew up in England. My parents got divorced, and I moved to Florida and immediately got in with, like, a lot of bad kids. And my dad was off doing his own thing, and. And. And it just was. There was a world. I was going in a completely different direction, and. And I had a moment where I'd ran away from home. I was a teenager, and I was Working at Jack's Burgers in the mall in Florida. And I feel like this was literally the defining moment of my life, quite honestly, was I walked outside of Jack's Burgers, I was taking the trash out, and there was a homeless guy going through the trash and waiting for the next trash bag to. And I literally was like, wow, that could be me if I don't pull my shit together.
- [36:26]
Rich Roll
And you're all of 17 or something,
- [36:28]
Nick Bilton
like 16 years old. 16, 17 years old. And I walked back inside, and I was like, you know what? I'm done. I'm going a different direction. And that was it. And I, like, stopped talking to all the kids, most of who are in jail or dead now that I knew in Florida. And I was like, I got to figure it out. And my GPA was a 1.9. In high school, you have to have a 2.0 to graduate. And I was like, how do I get. I literally was like, I've got four months to. To get from a 1.9 to a 2.0. I got to a 2.1. So, you know, by the time you
- [37:01]
Rich Roll
graduated, I mean, what was going on at home? What kind of chaos was happening that you were, you know, having such a difficult time?
- [37:08]
Nick Bilton
It was just total chaos. I, I, you know, parents were divorced. They got married too young. My dad was off dating and, you know, didn't want to deal with me and my sisters and, And. And we, we were a lot. I was a lot. I was getting in trouble all the time. I got arrested, like, nine times. It was like. It was, you know, not for, like, anything crazy, like stealing and drinking and fighting and, you know, complete nonsense, but
- [37:31]
Rich Roll
still, like, was drugs and alcohol part of that or just truancy? And just.
- [37:36]
Nick Bilton
I was never croc. Like, I was lucky that I never got into drugs, and I never have. And just. I just saw what they could do and. But I drank a little, but, you know, it wasn't right. It wasn't. It was more just. I just probably was looking for attention or direction or something, and. And, you know, there was a culture shock of moving from England to Florida, and then you had all these. I remember the. All these kids that I became friends with, and they were similar, and, like, they lived in New York. Their parents got divorced or whatever, and they. Or they got in trouble in New York, and their parents were like, we're moving to Florida. And so you get, like, this pirate ship that forms, and. And I got on the pirate ship, and.
- [38:23]
Rich Roll
But you have this moment of reckoning.
- [38:26]
Nick Bilton
I Have this moment of reckoning, which 30 years later is still. Or whatever. However many years it is, it's still literally fresh in my mind. Like, it happened yesterday. And I was like, I've got to. I've got to figure this out, otherwise I'm. I'm screwed. And, I mean, there are kids that. They're men now, but who I was very close with. I think, like, eight of them are dead. One of them's on death row for murder. A bunch of them, you know, just one got. One was arrested for a bank robbery with his mom. Like. Like, these were the people I was friends with.
- [39:05]
Rich Roll
It's a crazy sliding door story. I mean, because your success is so insane and, you know, in comparison to where you could have been, I mean, that really is, you know, this. This sort of inciting incident, like a real transformation as a result of just you coming to it yourself, like, not because you got locked up. It wasn't anything all that dramatic. Right. It was just like a mindset switch.
- [39:27]
Nick Bilton
Well, what I think what's fascinating about it is two things is one is I think we all have an imposter syndrome. And I've. And I've always been of the mentality of, you know, the people who do have that are the ones that work harder and that appreciate it more and so on. The ones that feel like, oh, I deserve to be here, they often don't work harder. They don't push. They just are like, this is where I'm meant to be. So I've always. Every time I've ended up in all these different roles, as a director on a documentary for hbo, writing a movie for Martin Scorsese, as a columnist for the New York Times, writing stories that are breaking, you know, changing laws or leading congressional hearings, things like that. Every time I'm like, whoa. Like, how did I end up here? And the mentality I always had was someone's gonna tap me on the shoulder and be like, time to go. And so I've got to do all this stuff that I want to do until that happens. And it's always been this kind of driving force. But I also. The other thing is, when I think about that homeless guy, that homeless guy is probably dead. Had no idea that he impacted someone else's life the way he did. And it always makes me think that every single solitary thing we do, we just don't realize, but it's all filtering out as meaning. Yeah, it has meaning. It has purpose. And whether it's up to us or somebody else, it does.
- [40:53]
Rich Roll
So you get this 2.0.
- [40:55]
Nick Bilton
I get 2.1.
- [40:56]
Rich Roll
2.1.
- [40:56]
Nick Bilton
Come on, give me the point.
- [40:57]
Rich Roll
What do you do with that?
- [40:59]
Nick Bilton
So I got into. The only school I could get into was an art school. It was a school of visual arts in Savannah, Georgia. They had a campus and I didn't, I mean, I literally couldn't write very well. I was. Because I hadn't really studied in school and I. So I made a comic book of my life story. And that was my college application. And they felt it was creative enough and that was something I was, I was always very creative. I was lucky to have that. And so it got me into art school and eventually I spent a year in Georgia and then I transferred to the New York campus and, and I kept. The ADHD clicked in, so I kept switching majors. And so I was like, I wanted to be a fine artist and learn how to paint photo realistically. And that took like six months. And I was like, oh, am I just gonna do this for the rest of my life? And then I found graphic design. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And then, and then I started, I started reading a lot. Like I fell in love with books. And my mom always read. I always remember when I was a kid, she was always. If she was like blow drying her hair, she'd have a book on her lap. And I just started. I was a voracious reader, but I still never wanted to write. I ended up as an art director. I designed the very first Britney Spears doll. Like I just bounced around to all these different things and eventually became an art director at the New York Press and then the New York Times. And the goal that I had, I'd read all these war photography books and these war books and I was like, I'm going to be a war photographer. That's it. So that was my goal to get to the New York Times. So I get to the New York Times and there's two things that happen. The first thing is I end up in the business section as the art director. But because I knew tech so well and I'd always understood tech, it was just this thing that I could understand. I was always suggesting story ideas and like arguing with David Pogue that his. His thesis was wrong or whatever. And so I. And I also became good friends with a lot of the editors there because I would help them fix their iPhones and their iPads and stuff because they didn't know how to. And at the same time I. I'm at the Times and my goal is like, I Have this portfolio, and I want to get it to the photo editor, this woman, Michelle McNally. And then I'm gonna go off and pursue my dream of being a war photographer. I was interning for the printer for James Noctaway. Do you know who James Noctaway is? He's the most unbelievable war photographer of all time. His photos are just breathtaking. And he had all these printers, and I interned for one of them. And I. You know, this was it. This was the goal. So one day, I finally get Michelle McNally to go out for lunch with me, and I sit there and I give her my portfolio, and she opens it up, and it was this big orange book. And she flips through. She doesn't say a word. And I'm watching, and she closes the book, and she goes, you're a good photographer. And she's like, you know, you'd probably be a good war photographer. She goes, but I'm not hiring you to be a war photographer. And I was like, why not? And she goes, because you're not fucked up enough. And I was like, what do you mean? She goes, all of these guys and these women that do this, she's like, they're adrenaline junkies. Most of them are alcoholics or drug addicts or. They need the adrenaline. They can't live in normal society. And she's like, you know, they live on. Some of them have beautiful houses, and they sleep on their floor. You know, it's like. Because that's where they're comfortable. And after that, I was like, okay, well, what's next? And that was when I became a writer.
- [44:30]
Rich Roll
What's interesting about that is you could have then lobbied her by, you know, laying. Making your case for how chaotic your upbringing was and how fucked up you truly are. No, I'm not. Yeah, you're like, you don't know. I got a. You know, I had a one point, whatever, and I, you know, got arrested nine times as a kid. I'm plenty up.
- [44:51]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, I. I just. I think that I. I'm the kind of person who. I go off. My intuition, and my intuition told me, maybe she's right. Maybe she's right.
- [45:06]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And then you kind of exploit this white space because this is.
- [45:11]
Nick Bilton
What is this?
- [45:11]
Rich Roll
The early 2000s, when the online aspect of journalism is brand new?
- [45:17]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. So it's early 2000s, and I. We had the New York Times, we had a research lab that was up on the 27th floor, I believe. And the goal of it was, like, five, six people. And the goal was to build Prototypes for what the future of journalism might look like to then inform the newsroom and so on. And so it was 2005 or 2006, and. No, sorry, it was a little late. It was around 2009 and the. We had an idea that there was going to be something like the iPad coming out. So we built, like. We took a screen apart and made it look like a touchscreen that you could interact with the news on and so on and so forth. And I started doing a lot of public speaking about the future media and things. And again, with Imposter Syndrome being like, why'd they invite me? And I remember I got a job offer that. To go work at Google in the Google News Group. And I went out for. I went out for lunch with the editor of the business section at the Times, who I'd become close with, and I told him, oh, I'm going to leave. And he said, it's a shame we can't keep people like you. And he's like, all of the people at the paper, he's like, they're all brilliant and they're geniuses, but none of them are interested in tech. All they want to do is write for the print paper. And I said, what are you guys doing with that tech blog, the Bits blog, by the way? And he said, well, no one wants to write for it. We get one post a month. And I said, I don't even know why I said it. It was literally like a puppeteer came and made my mouth work. And I was like, I would do it. And he said, really? Would you really be interested in doing it? And I was like, sure. And he goes, well, why don't you send me a proposal of what you would do? So I sent it to him, thinking it was just gonna go to him. He sent it to the entire tech department. And I kind of pissed them off because I'd said how bad their coverage was on the blog. And the deal, they said, let's. Let's try it for a month. And. And that's. That's how it all started. I was 33 years old the first time I'd written a professional word, and it was at the New York Times.
- [47:23]
Rich Roll
It's so unusual. Like, what an unlikely story for the New York Times to. To basically greenlight this guy who actually was not a writer, to be a writer for the most prestigious publication in the world simply because nobody else wanted to do it. And it was sort of treated like this bastard stepchild, which is all the more insane when you reflect on how Tech obsessed. We are like people just can't get enough of tech journalism.
- [47:49]
Nick Bilton
I think it was that. You know, I remember this really funny moment when I. When I first became a reporter. And you go to this at the times. You go to this. It's like an onboarding. Even if you've been. If you've been an employee in this department, you go to this one. You still go through it. But when you first start. So I was now starting officially as a. As a. A reporter and I. You go. And you go to the one. Someone on the masthead's house for like a dinner and. And you meet all the people that have been there their entire careers and lives and someone. And. And you get to ask them questions, but everyone goes around the room and they kind of introduce themselves at one of them and. And it's, you know, I'm Bob, so. And so. And I graduated magna cum laude from Harvard. And it got to me. It's like, what do I say? I got kicked out of art school. And it's. It's. I think what it was. There was no scenario five years in the future or two years in the past that they would have ever hired me. But they were in a situation where they, You. They couldn't hire people that wanted to. You know, those people were going and working on starting their own blogs. And the other, the other people were. I only want to be on the page, front page of the New York Times. I don't care about the Internet. And so I just found this slither of a doorway that I could squeeze through by accident. And then it turned out I was good at it. I knew how to do it for some reason, and that was it.
- [49:18]
Rich Roll
So when people come to you or young people come to you and ask for career advice or how do I get into this? How do you think about how you were able to get those third doors open and create opportunities for yourself that's translatable for. For the younger generation who's thinking about, you know, a career path similar to yours?
- [49:40]
Nick Bilton
Well, I think, I think the first. There's two things. One is, I would say you have to. You have to be somewhat fearless and willing to make mistakes. Like, I don't. I truly do not. I mean, this is what, like, honestly, my superpower. I do not give a shit what people think of me. Like, I care. I want. I'm a nice person. I want them to know that I'm a good person. But, like, if they don't like my writing, I don't care if they don't like that story. I don't care. Like, I'm just. My.
- [50:10]
Rich Roll
How do you square that with the imposter syndrome?
- [50:12]
Nick Bilton
The imposter syndrome is I'm not supposed to be here. They. I don't care is. Is. Is a different part of it. Like, the imposter syndrome is someone's gonna tap me on the shoulder and say, it's time for you to leave, you're in the wrong building. And the. The. I don't care is there'll be another column.
- [50:32]
Rich Roll
Let's find another building. Or.
- [50:33]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, or it's. Or it's more of, like, you know, I watch people who want to be writers, and they have one idea and that's it, and it's. And they think it's like, that's the idea that is never going to happen. You know, like, you have to. Everyone I know who's a successful writer In Hollywood has 50 things they're working on at once, you know, 50 different ideas, and one of them, if they're very, very, very lucky, will get made. And. And you ha. And I think that. And you also, as a journalist, you. You can't obsess about or even an author. That. This is. It's. It's perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There's 90% done, and you can spend the rest of your life on the next 10%. And I, and I. And for me, I'm okay with 90%. Like, okay, let's get it out, and we'll do the next one. We'll do the next one. We'll do the next one. And my goal is to just get better and learn more and put these things out out there in the world. And I think that that's. They're two very different things. Does that make sense?
- [51:36]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I understand so not being so precious about your work, holding it loosely, having a healthy relationship with expectations around, like, what's going to happen with it or how people receive it. And I suspect that that indoctrination had a lot to do with the fact that in your early columnist days, like, you just had to be churned. You were churning out, like, so much, so many articles. You just had to do it and move on and, like, not get too caught up in, you know, making it absolutely. You know, turning these things into jewel boxes.
- [52:06]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, that's exactly right. I remember there was an editor who told me at one point when I became a columnist, he said, there is a piece of. There's a column of newsprint every Thursday that is going to have Your name on it and the 1200 words you white, you write, and if you don't file it, you won't have a job. And that was it. And so I had to literally ensure. And it wasn't just that it was writing stories and so on and so forth. And so I did the math. At some point, it was well over a million and a half words I'd written, and I barely remember any of it. Like, it's, you know, I remember a few stories here and there or some themes and things like that, but they're just, you just got to write it, you publish it and you move on to the next one. And, and sometimes you, sometimes you get beat up for it and sometimes people love it and you just, and that's just it. And, and I think that the, the advice I always give to people is two things is one is you're going to get a better education in writing from reading than you are from someone explaining the structure of, you know, Hemingway's first opening page and his repetition of words and all these things like that. You're going to get a better education from reading and understanding. And that's literally how I've learned how to write in every single form. And, you know, people like Corinth McCarthy said the same thing. Like, the writing is reading and iterating on what people have done before you. And so my books are, they read like novels, even though they're narrative nonfiction, because I love novel. That's all I read is novels. And so I want to tell a story. And then they also kind of read a little like movies, because I love reading screenplays and writing screenplays. And so, but that's all. I didn't go to school for writing. You know, I, like, literally got kicked out of art school. Like, you know, it's, but you have a visual mind.
- [54:06]
Rich Roll
Like, I mean, when you're reading your books, it's like you just see the movie, which made me think, like, how come these books haven't been turned into movies yet? They must be, they must have gone
- [54:15]
Nick Bilton
through, they've gone through lots 20, you
- [54:17]
Rich Roll
know, cycles of development at this point. But how come they're not up on the screen yet?
- [54:22]
Nick Bilton
Well, it's just, I think, you know, it's a longer conversation about Hollywood and how broken that industry is. But, but yeah, I, I, I just, I actually just learned. I have a two, two boys that are 9 and 10, and one of them has really severe dyslexia. And my wife was, was helping him with some of the phonetics of Reading. I can't do phonetics. I did. I learned that because I couldn't. When she was saying things, I was like, think. That's how. That's how you do it. And what I realized is I also have some form of dyslexia. And. And what? I. I don't imagine words in my head. I can't picture a word, but I can picture an image, and then I can describe the image. So that's just the way my brain works. And so that's how I write. So I imagine the movie, and then I tell you what's happening in the movie, or I imagine the scene. It's all visual, and then it's to put into language.
- [55:19]
Rich Roll
As a writer, your talent is really storytelling. Like this reverence for how to tell a story well, which is reflected in the books that you write, but also is mirrored in these tech moguls that you've done these deep dive profiles on and their relationship with storytelling. So I want to spend a few minutes talking about how you think about storytelling and its importance and how we should all sort of be thinking a little bit more in depth about storytelling and how it operates in our own lives.
- [55:54]
Nick Bilton
Well, I think everything we do is a story, right? I'm telling you your story. You're telling me a story based on what you're wearing, what I drive, where I live, the way I talk to people. Everything we do is a story. And there are different ways to approach it and different mediums. You tell the story differently. Like, one of the things I find fascinating about nonfiction versus fiction, even if it's a short story or news article, is like in a news article, you have what's called the lead, which is your way into the story. Then you have the nut graph, which is telling you that's the second paragraph, which tells you what the whole story is about. And then at the end, you have what's called the kicker, which is the best part of the story, right? It's the part that you, You. You leave with. In fiction, it's completely the way around. You start with the best part of your story, and then you kind of go through, and at the very end, you kind of tell us what it's about and so on. And. And I think that with all different kinds of storytelling, you have to approach it differently. One of the things that I found the most challenging as a writer is screenwriting. I think it's the hardest form of writing there is. There's no. No more difficult form because you can't use exposition. You can't Every scene has to ask a question that another scene answers, then asks the question, and so on and so forth. Every character is trying to get in the other's way. One character, every voice has to sound distinct and different.
- [57:24]
Rich Roll
All.
- [57:24]
Nick Bilton
There's all these rules, and you're showing. You can never tell. You can never tell someone's interior and what they're thinking. And so I find it all very fascinating how the different forms of storytelling work for our brains to be able to kind of understand it. And that, to me, is one of the most fun parts of moving between all these different projects.
- [57:47]
Rich Roll
Yeah. In screenwriting, every line of dialogue, every setup, every kind of slugline has to reveal something about character and advance the story and illustrate the themes. And you have to do it with such incredible economy, it has to be distilled down to its very essence.
- [58:09]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. So the Godfather is one of the best examples because the theme is about family. The characters are all very, very different, and they're. What's the. What's so incredible about the Godfather and why it's cited as one of the best movies, is you've got the Godfather, right? And then you've got his four kids. And each kid is a different facet of the Godfather's personality, which are all, you know, one's a goofball, the other is holding it together. The other thinks he's. He's cocky and he's in charge, and. And there's the love and so on and so forth. And each character drives the forward. The story. For it's so. It's all those things that are happening, and if you have one single line of dialogue that isn't right, your entire feeling about these characters changes. And everyone has to have agency, and there's obstacles. It's a really, really challenging form of writing. And I think it's why there are so few good movies in Hollywood, quite
- [59:12]
Rich Roll
honestly, fewer and fewer.
- [59:14]
Nick Bilton
Fewer and fewer. And I also think the other thing I would say is I don't think there are a lot of good writers out there, great writers out there. And that's not a diss on society or people or whatever. I just think that there are. It is. It is such a difficult thing to do really, really, really well that there are only certain brains that can do it. Cormac McCarthy, for example, you couldn't teach
- [59:41]
Rich Roll
what that guy does not teach it.
- [59:43]
Nick Bilton
And he. He didn't. Even when you do read the interviews and the few that he did, like he always said, like, I don't know where it comes from. It's like. And I think this is. Some of. Some of the greatest artists say this. Like, Chris Martin had this great line in a documentary where he said, this song came to me from wherever songs come from. And I. And Cory McCarthy was like, there's something in my subconscious that like. Like that told me to do this. And I think it's the people who are the greatest artists, I think, are the ones that are most in tune with that. And it doesn't. It doesn't mean the people that aren't shouldn't write. They should do the things they want to do. But I think, like, the greats are the. Are. There's so few of them getting out
- [60:26]
Rich Roll
of their own way, opening this channel to the subconscious and, you know, in the. And kind of sitting in this space of allowing it for it to show up and flow from hand to page.
- [60:38]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. And Rick Rubin talks about this. About. How about. About that specifically. I think it's. I believe that, you know, I still don't know if I believe that there's a point to all this or we're just some little accident or simulation or whatever, but I do believe that there is something in the universe that. That makes these things, these stories happen. And whether it's a collective consciousness and some people have a little pinprick doorway, but I do truly believe that that is really where a lot of this art comes from.
- [61:15]
Rich Roll
Well, despite the fact that movies seem to be not so good these days, we're not going to ever reach a point where we lose our appetite for great storytelling, but it is an interesting cultural moment in that, you know, we're kind of in this period of time in which we've lost our reverence for the great novel. Like, this is something I talked. I had James Fry on here. We talked about this. I had Bruce Wagner. Do you know Bruce Wagner? I had him on. Writes these incredible transgressive novels that are really just fantastic. And it's like, nobody's reading these books. You know, we're not in that era that, you know, you and I were probably around the same age, like, when these people were like rock stars and everybody couldn't wait for their next book. And that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
- [62:08]
Nick Bilton
Well, I think there's a few things that have happened as far as books. Funnily enough, the book industry has not shrunk to the degree that people believe it has. It's actually grown in some years. And the reason is. There's a couple of reasons. One is that audiobooks have opened up a whole new genre of reader. And then. And most of those, you know, it's like the werewolves and the, and the vampires and all that stuff. You get these kind of subcultures that have, have risen up as a result of the ability to, to write books like this. And the other thing that's happened is. I mean, I think one of the worst things that's happened is actually Booktok and TikTok as a result of. Because I don't think that they're driving a lot of the sales to some of the worst writing out there. And people will call me an asshole for saying this and they have before, but I just, it really saddens me
- [63:04]
Rich Roll
when meaning like just sort of low rent genre fiction.
- [63:08]
Nick Bilton
Look, we all love a good like crime novel or a romance novel, whatever. But there are also things I believe with every ounce of my being that the reason that we are supposed to write these stories is to make people think it's a, it's. We are as a storytellers. Our job is to. Is to hold a mirror to society through a story. You know, Ayn Rand said this. She's like, Ayn Rand, she said that the, to her, a novel is a way to make society think about things. I think she pushed people to try to think in a certain way. But like to me that is what the, the whole point of all of what we're doing is like, sure to
- [63:46]
Rich Roll
elucidate some truth about human nature or the world to help us make sense of why we're here.
- [63:52]
Nick Bilton
And it's why we consume these stories, why we want the emotion. You know, whenever you're pitching a story in Hollywood, people are always like, what's the character's emotional drive? And it's like. And at first you hear that and you're like, what are you talking about? It's set, set in space, it's great. And then you realize like it could be set anywhere just matter. It's about the characters and how we relate to the characters. And, and I think that. Which is why there's never, you know, there's never a great movie about billionaires because no one can relate to being a billionaire. And so or most of us can. And I think that what's both been great is there are more readers today who do consume in different forms, but at the same time, the sad part is that the greats are not read like they once were.
- [64:42]
Rich Roll
And there isn't that sort of monoculture moment where some genius just drops some work that lands like a thud and rocks everybody Correct. But I still think that there is something perennial about writing books that has withstood the kind of gestalt of everything that we consume, was sort of uploaded in the last 24 hours. Like there's a staying power. If you write a great book, it can make an impact in a way that other forms of media still can't.
- [65:19]
Nick Bilton
I completely agree. I just, I wish that people would put down their phones a little bit more and stop scrolling, doomlessly scrolling and, and just read a book. I mean, I every, I'm a voracious reader, I. And at night I put my phone aside and I pull out my Kindle and I, you know, try to go through a book a week at least if I can. And I read a lot of older stuff, mostly 1950s, 60s, 70s, a lot of old sci fi and because I just feel like it was like the height of it, but I found it so much more reward, rewarding than even most TV these days.
- [66:03]
Rich Roll
This episode is sponsored by Rivian. When I think back on some of my fondest memories from childhood, 100% of them happened outdoors, on mountains, in lakes and oceans, getting muddy in the local creek, riding my bike around the neighborhood. Basic good stuff that leaves me thinking a lot about what, what kind of world we're leaving behind for the next generation. And this in a nutshell, is what Rivian is all about. They're an all electric vehicle company founded on a simple keep the world adventurous forever. I've been around rj, the CEO and his kids and it's so clear to me that this is his animating purpose. But he's not just thinking about them. He's making decisions based upon what our kids kids kids will inherit, which I love. And that philosophy is just deeply embedded in everything Rivian builds. These are zero tailpipe emission vehicles without sacrificing power or performance. The interiors use thoughtful, sustainable materials that feel premium and intentional. And the first 10,000 miles are powered by 100% renewable energy with a growing charging network doing the same same. It's not about choosing between exploring the world and protecting it. Rivian is like a passport to both. Meaning that when I'm driving the vehicle Rivian loaned to me, I'm not just driving through the world I love, I'm driving for it. Which is a pretty special feeling I want everyone to experience. One of the things I hear constantly from people in this community is I have an idea, but I don't know where to start. To which I say, whatever you imagine is holding you back exists only in your imagination. Let's say you have an idea to start a coaching practice, perhaps a creative project, a business or a course, whatever it is, a great way to turn imagination into reality is by giving it a home online. And that is where Squarespace comes in. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed on the world wide web we call the Internet. You can claim your domain, build a beautiful site and run your business all in one place. It's actually insane how easy it is, especially when I think about my past experiences working with designers for months at great cost. With Squarespace, you can start with their AI design partner blueprint or choose from a library of award winning services. Super stylish templates and customize everything with simple drag and drop editing. No design skills, no coding required. And if you're offering services, consultations, coaching events, Squarespace has built in tools for scheduling appointments, sending invoices and collecting payments. It's everything you need to turn an idea into something real. Head to squarespace.com rich roll for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, launch, use offer code richroll to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain. We have this fascination with these tech titans. We can't get enough of interviews with them.
- [69:19]
Nick Bilton
And there is a weird, we hope we're going to learn something.
- [69:21]
Rich Roll
It's like this, oh, maybe I could be that person someday. Or what would it be like to be a billionaire? Like this lurid, you know, kind of fascination with how these people live their lives, that, that lure us into kind of a romantic relationship with them. While also like that's the cognitive dissonance piece. Like we know that Sam Altman is most likely steering us off a cliff.
- [69:44]
Nick Bilton
Yes.
- [69:45]
Rich Roll
And yet, you know, we're like, what's Sam Altman doing? What's he up to? Is he a genius? What's happening? Like, and then we're using open AI every single day.
- [69:52]
Nick Bilton
It's like, yeah, they're not, they're none
- [69:54]
Rich Roll
of them saying, and the history of humanity is just barrel forward and break things and we'll deal with the repercussions later. But the repercussions in this context are so exponentially beyond anything that our species has ever faced. And yet we're still really not course correcting for this.
- [70:11]
Nick Bilton
Well, I think that the, I think it's the first technology in human history that can wipe out human history. I don't believe the nukes could have done that. There's a world maybe potentially, but you know, all of the studies that I've read, all the research, I've read State Department reports, so on and so forth, you know, you only need 150 people to survive for society to flourish. Society can come back from that. And, you know, the predictions were always, you know, we still have a billion people on the planet. Maybe Antarctica looks like Los Angeles, but like, the planet still survives most of that. And, and the same with chemical weapons. Like chemical weapons. They tried it in World War II and the reason it didn't work out was because of the wind, because the wind would blow the chemical weapons back in, in the German's face and they would. And so that didn't work. AI is, in my opinion, the first technology that could literally wipe us off the face of the planet. And, and I think that what we've been very lucky at until now is whenever something goes wrong, it is not catastrophic. You know, hundreds of thousands of people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And then we were like, wow, nuclear bombs are really dangerous. We should try to make sure that doesn't happen again. And the same with other technologies and so on and so forth. The question is, with AI, will it be too late once we realize, oh, that was a bad idea.
- [71:44]
Rich Roll
What's your suspicion on that?
- [71:47]
Nick Bilton
My suspicion is that if you look at technology in terms of warfare, every new technology we build is one that can be used for both good and bad, right? And, and in the beginning, in the early days when we were living in caves and stuff like that, when we realized we could kill something with a rock, we could kill one person, maybe a few, and then you were probably going to get killed with someone else's rock. You get to this point where guns come along and you can kill more people, you know, maybe, you know, maybe a few with the ones that you stick the bullet in. In the old, in the like, you know, the olden days, then you get to machine guns. You can now kill hundreds, and so on and so forth. Each new technology allows us to kill more, more. So now we get to nukes. We're at hundreds of thousands. I believe AI is, is in the billions if used correctly by someone nefarious. And so the question is, is what is that number and how. Who is the person that ends up using it? Because what's happening with technology is it's, it's making it does this. What I, I say people don't think small enough is the way I think about it. Less and less people create the thing that can destroy the world, and, and the thing that can be destroyed the world is even smaller than the thing from before. And so I think that we will have an instance. My prediction is that we will have an instance where it is used in a catastrophic way. And the question is, does it kill a hundred thousand people or does it kill 5 billion people? And after that, there will be safeguards put in place, likely. But the question is, is how many people die in the process?
- [73:37]
Rich Roll
And what is your sense of how it would kill people? Like, is it. Is it just, you know, creating a meltdown at the local nuclear facility? Or, like, what is the means by which people are going to die as a result of it?
- [73:51]
Nick Bilton
Well, if you asked me to put my screenwriter hat on for a second, like, yeah, there's the classic, like, you know, the. The power gets shut off. There's a State Department report that says if the power gets shut off in America, 95% of society is dead within a year. A lot more people, you know, hundreds of thousands are dead in the first few weeks. Like, you cut your finger, there's no medicine that's coming to you. There's. The water gets dirty, you die of, you know, diphtheria. There's all these different things that happen.
- [74:20]
Rich Roll
Literally just turning off the power grid.
- [74:22]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, there's the. Just turning off the power grid. Yeah. Literally nothing else. Super easy. The. The thing that people. There's that great saying that there are nine hot meals between anarchy and. Sorry, between society and anarchy. I think we're down to about four hot meals at this point. I don't think we'd make it to nine.
- [74:43]
Rich Roll
We're just on a trigger. You know, after Covid, everybody's ready to pounce. I don't think it would take that many days.
- [74:49]
Nick Bilton
And I think, like, and.
- [74:50]
Rich Roll
And we've learned that, like. Like there will be no comedy among men. Like, it, you know, we will just immediately pivot to antagonism completely, 1000%.
- [75:00]
Nick Bilton
And. And we never think it all through. Like, I, you know, I. I was working on a movie about. About, like an apocalyptic movie right before COVID And so I was doing lots of research into all the things that could go wrong. And I found out about COVID in China before it was like a mainstream thing. And so I. I was like, oh, my God, we have to. I was like, this is going to be really bad, and we have to get food. And I stocked the basement and my wife and my sister, everyone thought I was out of my mind.
- [75:27]
Rich Roll
Like, pre NBA suspending its way, way,
- [75:30]
Nick Bilton
way, like two months before. And. And. And it was just like a luck it wasn't like I was some foresightful genius. It was just literally like, oh my God, that could be really bad. And I'd been living in my own head about all the things that could go wrong in society. But you know what I didn't do? I didn't get toilet paper. I didn't get an extra can opener. I didn't get masks because I didn't know. So you can't even plan for the worst case scenario or extra bottled water and whatnot. I had a lot of chips like Impasta. But I think that the other thing is there are things that an AI could do today that could kill billions of people. Like, for example, have you heard the stories about the bank robberies where they fake the bank, the senior manager's voice, and they called to do a transfer? Have you heard about these?
- [76:23]
Rich Roll
I haven't heard about this. So there were versions of this.
- [76:25]
Nick Bilton
There's like a one, I think it was in somewhere in Europe and Italy or something. And they, they, they. Or Sweden or something like that, but that there was a transfer that was done because they faked the, the. The Boss's voice using AI and told him to transfer $50 million or whatever it was to, to another account. So imagine that you have an AI that says, okay, we are going to poison the food supply or poison the water. And they call, oh, can you ship this to the. Or whatever. Or they change, they. They have them change some, some. Some numbers or something like that. There's so many scenarios that you could just literally using a social engineering hack from an AI, do things. There's all the drone warfare stuff. There's a million things that could go wrong and we can't think of them all. And, and so how do we plan for them?
- [77:23]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. But on the subject of AI screenwriting and pandemics, the kind of inciting incident for me reaching out to you, it took us a while to get our schedules in line for you to come here, was on the heels of me listening to Scott Z. Burns's Audible. Like, I guess it was a podcast, like a limited series, sort of like an audiobook or an audio documentary in which Scott Z. Burns, legendary screenwriter, responds to this. This seeming desire out in, In Hollywood and in the world to come up with a sequel to the movie Contagion. The movie Contagion sort of had this second life during COVID because it's so. There was so much fidelity in that movie to kind of what we all experienced. That's I remember watching it at the very beginning of the pandemic, and I've now watched it again since then, and I was like, this movie is incredible. Great documentary.
- [78:22]
Nick Bilton
Unbelievable.
- [78:23]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [78:24]
Nick Bilton
And, And.
- [78:25]
Rich Roll
And everybody wants a sequel to it. Scott's like, yeah, but I just. I can't see any compelling reason to create a sequel to this. I can't think of a. A premise that would be worthy of the time and investment that it would take to create a movie. And he goes on this journey thinking, like, well, what if I use AI to come up with a valid premise? And it's this really engrossing kind of deep dive into what AI can do in. In terms of creative storytelling. And, you know, Steven Soderbergh is part of it. And there's one point where Scott reaches out to you, and you're sort of the AI optimist in this equation. So explain, like, your role in how you use AI as a. As a writer.
- [79:09]
Nick Bilton
Well, I will say that I'm a. I consider myself a technology realistic. I can see the good and the bad in all of it. And I think every technology does have good and bad. You know, I think that some technologies have more bad than good. Social media, for example, is one of those. Cars are great, but 1.2 million people die every year still, still to this day, driving cars. And, And. And you can. Nuclear bombs, nuclear power like this, you just go through all of them, and there's always a. A good and a bad for it. So I do see the good and the bad. I think as far as AI goes, I, you know, massive job loss, the potential end of humanity.
- [79:55]
Rich Roll
Just like we're actually having this conversation,
- [79:57]
Nick Bilton
but just put that aside for a second. However, I also think it allows us to tell better stories, quicker to think about new ways of telling stories, and enables people to tell stories, more stories. You know, I believe Hollywood is about to enter its MP3 moment. And its MP3 moment is where, you know, anyone with a computer or an iPad or whatever it is will be able to make a movie that looks like Mission Impossible in their bedroom. There will be good parts of that that we can all tell those stories. There'll be bad parts of that. And to me, you know, I was at a writer's room, Netflix, for a show I was doing right when Chat GDP came out. And. And after the room was done, I was like, oh, can I make my own writer's room? And I've. I've done that, and I do that for my own projects. And. And it's. It's not like I've replaced people's jobs because I wouldn't be able to hire
- [80:57]
Rich Roll
my own writers room for my own projects.
- [80:59]
Nick Bilton
But, but it is, I think there's incredible benefits too. I use it. I mean, I did a. I tried to count the other day. I mean, I think I use it like 5,000 times a day. I have agents that are helping me write screenplays and, and fact checking books and all these different things at the same time. And I needed a website that I, I was doing some work on a script and, and whenever you use Claude and things like that, you this. The quotes are always straight, straight quotes and they should be curly quotes. I couldn't find a website that would curl them and didn't have ads, so I just used replit and I made my own website, curlmyquotes.com it's like, I couldn't have done that before. And like. And I think that it enables you to do more in less time and tell better stories.
- [81:49]
Rich Roll
So in the audio documentary, which is called what Could Possibly Go Wrong? I think it was called what Could Go Wrong, you enter the picture and you kind of counsel Scott on how he can create his own writer's room, essentially by, by giving birth to a bespoke series of AI bots, each of which has its own personality, its own backstory, its own degree of expertise. And so Scott creates this writer's room. There's a virologist and there's a conspiracy theorist and there's a, you know, like, all. And then these people end up. And he's got his studio head and his agent, and these people are all in communication with each other and there's like a whole ecosystem that gets created. And this is something that you've done, you alluded to and what you just shared, which is absolutely fascinating. Like, I'd never thought of AI in that context. Like, I use it as a research tool. But as somebody who's writing a book right now, like, I'm very reluctant to share like, my actual prose with an AI. Like, I don't want any kind of, like, I want to write the, my book. I want it to be a human created book. I want to take advantage of AI as a research tool. But I don't ever want to be accused of like, AI having its fingerprints on anything that like I've written myself.
- [83:07]
Nick Bilton
But I don't think it's. So I'm not, I, I'm not going on to, to Claude and saying, write this book for me, because it couldn't do it. It Just, it couldn't. But I do go along to Claude. So one example of the way I use AI is I just. Have just finished this book for. With Dwayne Johnson on the company the Mafia in Hawaii. And we have 5.5 million words of research for the book. Newspaper articles from the 1940s all the way to the 1980s that were all taken from slides like microfiche and so on and so forth. I have a researcher whose name is Nick. We call him Nick 2.0. And we, we went to the. The National Archives. We got all the court documents boxes that had never been opened in 50 years. Thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of page of court documents. When I wrote American Kingpin, there was no AI So what I would do is I, I did, like, I had an Excel spreadsheet that, like, had all the dates and the times and everything, but I would have to remember what to search for. Like, oh, it was. He was wearing orange. So I'd search for the color and then I would piece it all together. Right. What I did with, with this book and what I do with the screenplays
- [84:20]
Rich Roll
I'm working on and so on that
- [84:21]
Nick Bilton
are all based on some. Some sort of reality is I, I use. I use cursor, which is actually, most people use it for programming, and I use it for both programming and writing. And, And I have my own agents that are specifically designed for. For what I do. And then I can have them take the microfiche, turn it into text, and so on and so forth. And then I can ask questions like, oh, what were some of the interesting things that happened during the trial? What were, you know, Tell me the story about the murder of, of Monty and Fuzzy. Tell me, like, and so it gets all those things, and then I can go read those, those parts of the transcripts, but I don't have to go through, yeah, 5.5 million words of research. And so the other thing I do is while I'm writing. So do you know what a TK is? So in journalism.
- [85:06]
Rich Roll
Oh, like, you'll get to it later. You move on.
- [85:08]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. So in journalism, whenever you're writing on deadline and you need to fill something in later, you write T.K. so two letters next to each other. And it's the, the greatest thing I've ever learned in my life because there's no word in the English language that has a T and a K next to it. So you can search at the end right before you go to press for tk and if it's like a fact about like the number of floors of a building or the guy's, you know, job title or whatever. You fill those in. So usually I would go and I would do find and replace and do the research and so on. So what I do now is I. As I'm writing, I'll be like, the person. You know, this guy's walking down the street on TK street, and he runs into TK guy and did it. And then I write it, and it's all in my style, and then I give it to one of my agents and I say, go, go, go. Fill in the TKs from all the research. And it just goes and does it and it gives me. I haven't given me all the things. So that, to me, has saved me a week's worth of work. So I'm still doing the writing, but it's filling in the little details that, you know, or like, I'll. I'll remember from reading the dialog between two characters, and I'll write it, and then I'll say, go check it and make sure it's right and fix it if I made a mistake. And so it's doing that with. With a screenplay. You know, I'm writing the screenplay. But I'll. I'll say, like, this is one way a lot of people I know use it. Like, this paragraph is too. Too much exposition. Give me 10 versions of how to take the exposition out, and then it gives it to me, and then I rewrite it again, and that's it. And so it's. It's just thinking it's not writing the book, it's not writing the screenplay. It's just helping me come up with. With. With things. And then at the end of it, I will. You know, one thing I did with. With the recent book I did. I uploaded the whole book and I said, are there any characters that need closing out? Are there any moments that don't flow? Blah, blah, blah. Give me a full critique on it. And it gave me a bunch of notes, and I was like, great. And I went back and fixed them.
- [87:03]
Rich Roll
Can you create bots for the characters, like the Dwayne Johnson character, and then test to say, oh, is this something this person would say based upon all of this 5,000 pages of research that you have fed it?
- [87:17]
Nick Bilton
Well, so there's a couple of things I did that are like that. So one thing I did was I had an agent, and they're super easy to make. Like, they're really not. You can just go to Claude and say, tell me how to make an agent that does X or skills or whatever. It's not that hard. But you. One thing I did that was really fascinating recently was I. I was writing about these mobsters specifically. And I. There was some parts I just didn't understand, like from a mentality standpoint. So I had. I had an agent that created the characters and then I could interview the characters. They're dead.
- [87:56]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [87:57]
Nick Bilton
So I can't.
- [87:57]
Rich Roll
Like fucking wild.
- [87:58]
Nick Bilton
So I'm like, what's it like to bury someone alive? Like, what does that feel like? And like. And it's. It's looking at like it's got the information I have, the interviews I've done, and so on and so forth. And then it's also looking at research online and everything. And so I'm literally having a conversation with a dead person or what's it like. Another example was part of the book takes place and the movie takes place during World War II. So there's this amazing opening of the book where I'm not gonna give it away, but it's a very visual moment during Pearl Harbor. So I wasn't in Pearl Harbor. Right. I could go read a few books and I said, I want you to be a person who is. Who's there in Pearl harbor on day that the bombs dropped. And I'm going to ask you questions like, what does it smell like? What does it look like? What are you hearing? Where are the planes coming from? All these questions. And it gives it to me and then I go. I go, right. Based on that quote unquote, interview with a robot. Yeah.
- [88:59]
Rich Roll
That's wild. It isn't a binary thing. I mean, that's incredibly helpful and powerful. And in the Scott Z. Burns audio documentary, it's like the premise that AI comes up with for this Contagion 2 is a fucking banger, you know, like this. I would watch this movie and he was not coming up with that on his own.
- [89:17]
Nick Bilton
But I think that the misnomer is that you're gonna. The misnomer is this. It's that AI will be. Will be able to write the next Gorman McCarthy book. I do believe that is going to happen.
- [89:32]
Rich Roll
You do?
- [89:32]
Nick Bilton
I do believe that. I think that we are terrifying, which is terrifying. I think we're a long ways away from it. But I do believe we're gonna. Maybe not a long way, maybe a couple years, I don't know. But. And. And I haven't wrapped my head around what that means. I do have some thoughts and we can talk about it. But. But for the, for the Rest of the. For now, you still need a human to write those stories. You still need a human to direct the AI, because these LLMs have been created on the entirety of everything written in the past, you know, X number of hundreds of years. And I. I mean this in the kindest possible way possible. Most people can't tell a fucking story and most people can't write, and they're really bad at it. And so it is being trained on everything, including that. And most of it is that, you know. And so the. It's not looking at the. The best writers, it's looking at all of it. And so treating them equally. And it's treating them equally. In fact, it's giving more weight to the worst ones because there's more of them. And so you still need a human to say, that's a terrible idea. That's cheesy. There's a thing that a lot of the, A lot of the, all of the AIs do when you ask it to write a scene in a screenplay. So one of the classic things in a screenplay is you come into the scene late, you leave the scene early, which means you never walk in the door and you never walk out the door. You come in mid argument. It can be four lines of dialogue. When you ask an AI to write a scene, even if you tell it to come in late and leave early, it will always be like. It'll just. It always tells you the thing that you already know. It doesn't know how to do any of that stuff yet. And I think it's a while away until it does.
- [91:22]
Rich Roll
I mean, I take comfort in that. But as we progress towards an AI that can write like Cormac McCarthy or in a indistinguishable fashion, the question is, like, what is the human role in the midst of this? And, you know, there was a bunch of hullabaloo around these, these clips that were shared on social media where it was like a fight scene with Brad Pitt. It looked pretty realistic, right? But you still look at it and you're like, yeah, I don't give a shit. Because, like, I know this is fake and this isn't the real people. And, you know, as human beings, part of the attraction to that type of storytelling is the human element is knowing that there was, you know, somebody behind that with, with a creative inspiration to create that. The question is, does that matter when we, we are looking at something that's indistinguishable or not?
- [92:17]
Nick Bilton
It does.
- [92:18]
Rich Roll
You don't think it does?
- [92:19]
Nick Bilton
No, I don't think it does.
- [92:20]
Rich Roll
I don't think you think that's. That's sort of a romantic idea that humans are hanging on to, because there is a. There is. I. I do feel like right now, at least, and obviously we're in early days, you know, authenticity is at a premium. Like. Like, we're sort of tired of the AI AI slop. And when you see something that you know is real or a person that you can trust, like, that has value.
- [92:41]
Nick Bilton
Let me ask you a question. If I. So you like Cormac McCarthy too, right? We'll use him as an example. If. If I came along and I said, I. I found his unwritten novel. It's amazing. You got to read it. And you read it and you were like, this is amazing. And then afterwards I said, you, it's written by an AI, would you feel differently?
- [93:00]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I don't. I don't know.
- [93:01]
Nick Bilton
Like, you would still have enjoyed the novel, and I think that.
- [93:04]
Rich Roll
But then I would be. I would be disappointed, I think, upon hearing that news in the aftermath.
- [93:09]
Nick Bilton
Yeah, you'd be disappointed in the aftermath. But. But my point is, is that you will appreciate the art equally the same, whether it's written by an AI or the real Corma McCarthy. And I think that if a. When you look at that fight scene that everyone was sharing, it still had a little bit of. A little bit of AI in there. Eventually it won't, and it just won't. And. And I think that once we get to that point, if it's a good story, people won't give a shit if it's written, if it's made by a person or not, and they won't give a shit if it's a real actor or if it's a fake actor. I think that there will be some people in society that will say, like, I will. Only I can imagine books in the bookstore that says written by a human. Like. Like, I'm not condoning any of this in any way, shape or form. Like, if I could build a time machine and go back to 1960, when people wrote on typewriters, I would be happy to, But I just see that this is the future.
- [94:03]
Rich Roll
It does seem inevitable to me, though, that we're in this recursive loop of degradation, because these AI tools are only as smart as what we feed them. And as the Internet is increasingly populated with AI generated material, it's like we're making facsimiles of facsimiles of facsimiles, and we're not seeding it with the best of what humanity has to offer, and we're seeding it with less human creativity and inspiration. So Cormac McCarthy is a one of one and he comes along and writes in a way no one else does, and that elevates the human spirit. But we need those people to come and kind of refresh how we think about literature or choose your own art form or whatever the specialty is. And if those people don't, and they're not feeding the AI, then we're just training it on what exists and it becomes this lowest common denominator thing. And that can't help but kind of degrade. And, you know, we just careen towards idiocracy.
- [95:06]
Nick Bilton
I think we've careen towards it. We're already there. We're past that point. I'm not condoning any of this. I want to say that, like, to me, I said this on a podcast if you last year and got all these people were mad at me, but I'll say it again, I don't care. I think Colleen Hoover is a terrible writer, all right. And, and her. She had at 1.7 books on the New York Times bestsellers because of TikTok and so on and so forth. And I don't hold it against her. I'm not saying I'm Cory McCarthy in any way, shape or form. I'm just, I'm like, I can list a million other terrible writers. But what bums me out is there are so many incredible books by incredible writers that make you think. And that's the stuff that's on the top of the New York Times bestsellers. But. But it's because we go to this lowest common denominator now. And my hope, and this is literally just my hope, is that what AI can do is help us, help guide us to back to something that is not slop. And I think if it's going to be slop, it will be. We don't need AI slop. We've got. We've got human slop. Right? It just, it doesn't. It's not going to change. It's not. It's whatever. But there is a scenario, and this is my hope, is that the scenario allows us to make better stories that push us to think more and so on and so forth. The question is, is. Is Anthropic going to say, oh, we're only going to use the top 1% of writers and then we're going to train the A's on that and then they're going to be more creative and so on and so forth. Or is it what's going to happen? I don't know. I do believe that no matter what, that the most creative people will always have a job of telling stories, whether they are coming up with an idea and telling an AI to write the book or whatever it is. But I, I truly do believe that. I think it's going to be like the art world where you have 50 people that make a living and the rest of them, you know, paint flowers in their bedroom and, and that's it. But like, but I do believe that that's the case. But I think that to say that we're not going to consume AI content because it's garbage, like we consume a
- [97:24]
Rich Roll
lot of garbage today, storytelling is not going away. But the thing that worries me the most in this shorter term window of rapid AI advancement is the incentive structure behind good storytelling. Because we are already in a post truth world like, and a great story using AI and visuals that are indistinguishable from reality has the capacity to manipulate the masses into, you know, name your idea, right? So this is something that is easily weaponized. Like we don't know what's real anymore and we don't know that person that we recognize who's saying that thing, whether they actually said it. And even if we're told it's fake, the research shows that we still kind of believe it, you know, even if we're told it's AI. And what is this doing to the human mind and to the capacity for the human animal to maintain coherent societies? Like, I, I just see that is
- [98:33]
Nick Bilton
like, this is like, yes, yeah, this
- [98:34]
Rich Roll
is, this is how we're going to destroy ourselves. I think in the short run I completely agree.
- [98:38]
Nick Bilton
And that's, that's the biggest worry. I think that, you know, in the, the attack on Iran recently, Iran was using just basic AI tools like chat, GDP to make fake videos or Gemini, I don't know which ones they were using, but they were, they were using these basic AI tools to make fake videos of them bombing Israel, destroying it. And then they were putting that on television for everyone in Iran to believe that they, they're winning the war. It's like, you know, there are news clips, there was a news clip that, but I'm on a text thread with a bunch of screenwriters and one of the guys was like, oh my God, did you see Iran is agreeing to all of the US terms and it was a CNN clip of Jake Tapper. And the only reason I could tell it was AI was because Jake's hair looked too good. But it was an AI clip and
- [99:30]
Rich Roll
it's enough to convince your very smart screenwriting friend. Yeah, it's just terrifying to me.
- [99:36]
Nick Bilton
It's terrifying and I think, but technology, technologies cometh and technologies are then cometh to take on the other technology.
- [99:45]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I know, but this is not Napster.
- [99:47]
Nick Bilton
It's not. But the only way that we survive this is, is if the technology that is used to create it. There's other ones that are used to fight the, the bad ones, sure.
- [99:58]
Rich Roll
But that is analogous to the detection of performance enhancing drugs. Like the advancement is always ahead of the detection system and the, the correction system 1000%.
- [100:09]
Nick Bilton
And I, and I, I, I'm not saying I'm not being an optimist in this. I'm just, I'm just, I know that's where we'll end up again. It's the worry of how much bad happens before we figure out how to solve the.
- [100:21]
Rich Roll
And what is your sense of the timeline here?
- [100:23]
Nick Bilton
It's, well, the problem is, is, it's, what's fascinating is, you know, I've always been, I, you know, when I was a kid, I love, loved computers so much. I used to go on a weekend to the local corner shop in England and get the new coding magazine and write basic code and stuff. And I've always been obsessed with tech and just, there's something about it that I'm so, I mean, I, I'm fascinated about technology from a human standpoint. It is, it is the only thing, I think, that really, truly separates us from other creatures. And other creatures make art and music and, and so on and so forth. Technology is the one thing that we do that really, truly separates us. And yet it is inevitable that it will be the downfall of us and we can't stop ourselves. And I'm fascinated by that. And there's also, the other thing I'm fascinated by is that we are obsessed with technology because we want to be able to do things quicker and easier and so on and so forth and advance more. And yet when the technology destroys us, the thing that we immediately go to is back to these cavemen that will beat each other up for food and so on and so forth. So there's this crazy dichotomy with the way we as humans work. And I'm fascinated by it. And you know, if, if right now there was some nuclear attack and the power went out, like you and I would be like out in the street with baseball bats when we haven't had a meal in four days. And like, and we literally go to that lowest common denominator as us as people, we go to our animal instinct. So that I'm fascinated by. And as far as the AI question goes, I do believe that there's a scenario where it could be used for good. But I also know that there's a lot of scenarios where it will be used for bad. And the thing that's crazy is I've been.
- [102:20]
Rich Roll
That's already true.
- [102:21]
Nick Bilton
It's already going to get more remarkable
- [102:24]
Rich Roll
advancements that are happening is like disease prevention and like cures and like just incredible shit.
- [102:30]
Nick Bilton
Yes. And. But there will be, there will be bad. Lots of bad. And, and the question is. And we haven't really seen the real bad yet. We just haven't. Hasn't come about. There's little video clips and this, that and the other. There's people who get scammed and so on and so forth. We haven't seen like, we haven't seen the real bad. It's coming. It's just inevitable. And what's been so insane to witness for me as someone who has been using technology their whole life, has been writing about it for more than two decades, is how quickly it's happened. And I had this moment recently. So one of the things I do when I do pitches is I create these AI images that I walk people through as I'm pitching the story. I find it really like a great way to tell a story and I use midjourney for it. And I started using it about a year ago for this and I went to the bottom of my mid journey feed and the first images were so horrifically bad compared to what we can do today. And that's in like a year. And so there's no. I have never seen a technology grow as fast as this. It's astounding and it's exponential. It's going to continue to do it as it gets smarter.
- [103:38]
Rich Roll
And so the question is, well, it becomes self improving.
- [103:40]
Nick Bilton
It becomes self improving and it's on a daily basis. You know, every single day there's this competition between Deep Seq and Gemini and Anthropic and OpenAI and so on to quickly get the more models and more tokens and more, you know. And the question is what goes wrong and when and how do we, how do we prepare for it? And the. There's no answer to those questions. Yeah.
- [104:05]
Rich Roll
And it is an interesting quirk of the human animal that we know all of this and yet we're like, well, we're just barreling forward anyway, because that's what we do.
- [104:16]
Nick Bilton
That's.
- [104:18]
Rich Roll
That sort of informs the argument that, like, maybe human beings are just intended to be the sex organs of this new form of life. And that's our. That's ultimately like the end game of our entire process purpose, and it doesn't really matter whether we survive or not.
- [104:35]
Nick Bilton
It's interesting. I heard the story years and years ago from a friend who was at the dinner where Elon Musk and Larry Page got into the fight about. Do you know the story?
- [104:45]
Rich Roll
I don't think so.
- [104:47]
Nick Bilton
They were at Larry's house. Elon was sleeping on his couch, and they were talking about AI way before any of us were talking about it. And Larry Page had said, allegedly to Elon, that, you know, robotics are. They're the future of this. Of humanity. Like, they're. Sorry, that's the next iteration of humanity, of evolution. Sorry. And Elon got really mad. He was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, that's it. It's just evolution. And Elon and him started arguing, and Elon said, you're no. Larry Page accused Elon of being species. And I remember at first hearing that and being like, what a psycho Larry Page is. And then you kind of see it all, and you're like, well, maybe that's. Maybe that's it. I don't know.
- [105:36]
Rich Roll
And here we are, and Elon is creating the robots basically. Like, they. They stopped creating the Model S and the Model X so that they could allocate resources towards their robotics department.
- [105:49]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. And it's. And it's like, we know what the. We know the future. We know what it looks like, but
- [105:55]
Rich Roll
we're like, yeah, it's going to be bad, but here we go.
- [105:58]
Nick Bilton
Yeah. And what I find so fascinating, I'm sure you've had this conversation is this. That exact moment, what you just said, you laughed. So when I talk to people, we're at a dinner. Dinner party or something, me and my wife, and it'll come up and I'll tell them, like, all my theories of, like, what it is. And then people, like, there's a silence, and then there's a laughter. Like, we know when someone almost gets hit by a car and they laugh right afterwards. Like, there's this science and this laughter, and then people will be like, so, what do you guys want to do for dessert?
- [106:22]
Rich Roll
And it's like, there's a powerlessness.
- [106:25]
Nick Bilton
There's a total powerlessness that we have. And so it. It comes out in us grinding our teeth at Night or whatever, however it comes out. But it's like, it's. It's so fascinating that we know it's gonna go wrong and yet. And I know it's gonna go wrong. And after this, I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna sit at my laptop and I'm gonna talk to an agent. And it's like.
- [106:51]
Rich Roll
And that's just a weird cognitive dissonance
- [106:54]
Nick Bilton
kind of thing because what's the other version of it? I go live in the woods and wait for someone else to do it.
- [106:58]
Rich Roll
You're balancing these polarities of existential dread while also being kind of amazed that we're alive at this period of time where we're giving birth to this thing. And there is like, you're watching a movie, like, what's gonna happen next? It's exciting. But how old are your kids?
- [107:14]
Nick Bilton
9 and 10.
- [107:15]
Rich Roll
9 and 10. Okay, so my kids are older, but your kids being younger are. That's even more of a prescient case. Like, how do you think about the world that they're going to inherit? And what do you say to young people who are wondering, like, where should I place my attention? What should I be doing right now to prepare for this thing that none of us can kind of really imagine what it's going to look like and what the skill sets are that we're going to need?
- [107:43]
Nick Bilton
I truly don't know the answer to that. I truly don't. I don't know. If I were me.
- [107:48]
Rich Roll
And if you don't like, if I
- [107:50]
Nick Bilton
were me, okay, and I was. I was just coming out of art school at this point, I would not. I would have dropped out of art school, probably, to be quite frank. But I always believe. I think. I truly do believe that the most important thing that humans do is tell stories. And I would continue to try to figure out how to tell stories, good stories that have an impact on society that is positive, quite frankly. I know this may sound bullshit, but it's truly what I believe. So to me, if I were coming out today from art school or trying to get a job or whatever it was that I was doing or going to be a writer, my number one goal would be how do I tell stories that try to make sure society doesn't end up in the worst catastrophic place? Whether that's. I wouldn't have done this. But, like, becoming an influencer, that's trying to talk about the good and the bad and the da, da, da. It's like, it's the only thing that we can do. To control it is to tell stories about what it could be and to make people think about it. And so my answer is that, you know, and it's why I'm still doing it now, because I believe, like, I believe that, you know, the Mafia book that I'm writing with Dwayne, sure, it's about the Mafia, but it's about colonialism. It's about right and wrong and what happens to. It's like it's about much bigger things. And I think that. But we as a species, that's how we learn is through story. And the only way to try to save the species is to tell better stories.
- [109:39]
Rich Roll
I think that chuckle that we have when we're kind of confronted with this reality is a reflection of our discomfort with uncertainty. And the truth of the matter is that the world has always been tremendously uncertain. And the human mind like to. Likes to fabricate rules and create structures that foster the illusion of certainty and predictability, but nothing really is certain. It's just that with AI, the uncertainty factor is through the roof all of a sudden. And we're just fundamentally wired to be uncomfortable with that. But in terms of the anxiety levels of the adults who are trying to make sense of this, perhaps there's something to be said for just being in a relationship with your relationship with uncertainty, you know, and trying to. Trying to find some peace in that and understanding that, you know, it's been uncertain all along.
- [110:38]
Nick Bilton
I totally agree. I mean, it's. It's why people are drawn to rel. Were drawn to religion because they're not as much anymore. Because that created boundaries around uncertainty. Right. It said there are rules and there's a reason and you have to trust in God and Jesus and whatever the other thing that this religion you believe in says. And it's as a society, as societies, we've pulled away from that at a time when we probably need it more than ever. And I think it's a really astute point to say you have to be okay. It's like that saying in AA about being okay with not being okay. Yeah.
- [111:16]
Rich Roll
There is a. There is a. Somebody who's been in AA for a long time, like, it's all about powerlessness. Like, we really don't have control over all the things that we think we do. Like we can control our behavior and our kind of reaction or response to things that happen. And given an acceptance of that powerlessness, how do we find peace, happiness, meaning, etc.
- [111:40]
Nick Bilton
So I read this Nietzsche quote that was, was. It was actually really interesting. So here it is. So what if someday or night, a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you, this life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more. Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him? You are a God, and never have I heard anything more divine. And the point that he's trying to make is you know that you are living the life that you're meant to live, if you would be okay living it over innumerable times. And so that to me is like, I am so fucking lucky that I ended up. Up telling stories, because it's what I'm meant to do. I don't know why. I don't know. It's literally. It's. It's. It gives me a calmness. It makes me. It's why I love writing books. Like most people hate writing books. I love it. There's nothing I enjoy more than. Than the challenge of telling a story in 110,000 words. And, and. And I think if you told me I have to write books every day for the rest of you, the un like you, the civilization or whatever, it is, like, I'd be the happiest person ever. And I think that, to me, that's really what it's all about. And it's. If you. If you know that you're doing that, that you. That you're comfortable with the fact that you are living this life that you're meant to live, then that's what it's all about. That's the meaning. And that's man's search for meaning. That is it. And it could be like, maybe you love branding, you love running, you love climbing towers, like, you love podcasting. Whatever it is, it's about finding that thing. And I think that to me. And that that, to me, is what it's all about. And until the AI kills us all.
- [113:39]
Rich Roll
I think that's beautifully put. I would only add to that that perhaps amidst this uncertainty or being in the eye of this AI Hurricane, that maybe we can appreciate the moment a little bit more. Like, if this is truly, everything's transient, but now it just is. Like, you know, it's on a shorter time frame, right? Like, okay, well, if this is going to go away or things are going to look very different in an unpredictable fashion, like in a very short period of time, let's try to really appreciate the lives that we have right now. And like yourself, I feel extremely lucky to be able to do what I do and sit across from people like yourself and learn from them.
- [114:19]
Nick Bilton
No, it's. I completely agree. And I think one of the biggest. Somebody said this to me 15 years ago when the. 17 years ago. So when the iPhone first came out, they had a very prescient point, which was my biggest worry is not the screen and this and that. It's that we will never have moments where we just sit anymore. And, boy, were they right. And I think, like, one of the things. And it's hard. It is so hard. But one of the things that I really have been trying to do is, like, just put it away, even if it's for five minutes. Like, people used to sit on their porch and just think, you know?
- [114:58]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [114:58]
Nick Bilton
And now, like, you're like. You're at a urinal and you're like, oh, I can.
- [115:02]
Rich Roll
I can read an email.
- [115:03]
Nick Bilton
You know, and it's like, it's. It's. I think this is honestly one of the worst inventions in humanity. It is literally like, I wonder if Steve Jobs were still alive, if he'd be like, oh, I did a great thing, or. Or like, I did a terrible thing. And. And I think it really is a. It's. It's just you gotta. You have to fight against the technology. Even though we all need to use it to be in the society we live in.
- [115:29]
Rich Roll
I think that's a good place to end it. But I would ask you this final question. How is it collaborating with the Rock on this project?
- [115:37]
Nick Bilton
He's just a sweet guy. He's, like, really thoughtful, always thinking about other people. He's funny. He doesn't send texts, he sends voice notes. And so you get these long voice notes from Dwayne, and it's like. It's just. They're fun, you know, he's like, telling his thoughts and his.
- [115:54]
Rich Roll
That tells me that he appreciates the fact that he holds a certain stature. Like, if you get a voice memo for him, you're gonna save that thing. It's his voice. He's speaking to you.
- [116:05]
Nick Bilton
Well, I think it's.
- [116:05]
Rich Roll
You know what I mean? It's also supposed to, like, just texting.
- [116:08]
Nick Bilton
He also. He, like, works out, like, three hours a day. He's doing.
- [116:12]
Rich Roll
He's in the gym rather than, like,
- [116:14]
Nick Bilton
he's like, you know, lifting £400 with one arm and then sending you a voice note. But he's great. He's been an amazing collaborator. And. And he really got in there. Like, we did a lot of the interviews together, like, with the. The former mob bosses and Scorsese. And Scorsese has been. He's, you know, it's. That was a surreal moment. I was with him in New York recently, and we were breaking the story and batting around ideas and talking about good fellas and this, that, and the other. And he's 83, but, like, he's got more energy than me. You know, it's.
- [116:45]
Rich Roll
It's.
- [116:45]
Nick Bilton
It's. It's interesting. It's like, you know, they're. That's an. It's an example of, like, the people that are doing the thing that they should be doing.
- [116:54]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [116:54]
Nick Bilton
And. And they're really good at it. And they're. You know, and that. That's. It's been really fun to be a
- [117:02]
Rich Roll
part of that in watching the Scorsese documentary. And there's that part where they're in. You know, they're talking to his childhood friends, and they're talking about how he's literally storyboarding movies as this little kid. And everyone's like, what are you doing? Like, clearly, this guy is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing. Like, he is living the fully expressed version of who he was always meant to be.
- [117:24]
Nick Bilton
I think that's what it's all about. Like, it's about. It's about finding that thing, and it doesn't matter what it is. I mean, you don't want to be a serial killer if you're meant to be, but, like. But, like, it's about finding your place on. In. On the stage, in this play. Like, and. And that's it. Because we don't know. We will never know. An AI is never going to tell us why we're here. Like, we're never going to figure that out. So we just have to go with the thing that we. We are comfortable with in that moment, and that's usually the thing that we want to be doing. And. And that's what it's all about.
- [118:00]
Rich Roll
I think that's a good place to end it, man.
- [118:02]
Nick Bilton
Yeah.
- [118:02]
Rich Roll
Beautiful way to conclude this conversation. Thanks, Nick.
- [118:06]
Nick Bilton
Thank you for having me. This has been a lot of fun.
- [118:08]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Very cool. The movie, obviously, is going to be a couple years before this thing is
- [118:13]
Nick Bilton
going to be a couple years. Yeah. The book is coming out next year. Yeah. So I have a podcast I'm doing with Dick Costlow and Paul Kudrowski. Dick was the former CEO of Twitter. It's called the Nick, Dick and Pole Show. We talk about all sorts of stuff like this every week.
- [118:27]
Rich Roll
Nice.
- [118:27]
Nick Bilton
All right, man.
- [118:28]
Rich Roll
We'll come back and share some more when the book's coming out.
- [118:30]
Nick Bilton
Yeah? Cool. All right.
- [118:31]
Rich Roll
Thanks, Nick.
- [118:32]
Nick Bilton
Thank you. Peace.