← The Rich Roll Podcast
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A
Eating well. Sounds good. Sounds simple until you're staring into the fridge wondering what on earth you're gonna cook. That is exactly why we created the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized plant based meal planning app that matches you with custom designed recipes based on your taste, your dietary needs, your cooking skills, and importantly, the time you actually have to cook. Then even helps you generate a grocery list that seamlessly integrates with ingred delivery. For listeners of the show, we're offering $20 off an annual subscription. Go to meals.richroll.com take the quick personalization quiz and enter the promo code PlantPower20 at checkout. So I did Iboga. The iboga plant the shrub, native to central West Africa with powerful psychoactive effects believed to heal many ail is wildly
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effective to cure depression, PTSD or trauma.
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It just transports you to an entirely different reality. There were moments where I really felt like I was flirting with madness. It's so powerful. Like there's a reason why it's called the Mount Everest of psychedelics. I felt so vulnerable and open and loving and it was just, it was really profound for me.
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B
Some of these moments have been the most beautiful moments that I've seen with you. You feel like not the old you. You feel evolved.
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A
It's been the greatest gift that I could give myself. Am I changed? Maybe. So you ready to talk about this?
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B
Am I ready? Are you ready to talk about it? I'm just here as your compassionate witness to hear all about your journey.
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A
I don't know if I'm ready to talk about it, but I'm going to talk about it.
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B
Okay. Well, that's good. That's good news.
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A
About a month ago, I traveled out of the country and went through an iboga experience. And there's many reasons for this. So why don't we start by talking about what led up to this and why I did it. As anybody who's been listening to the show for a while knows, about a year and some months ago, I did my first psychedelic experience, which was a combination of psilocybin and mdma. And that was a profound experience that bent reality and gave me a glimpse of maybe a truer version of reality that has been incredibly meaningful to me personally and not something that I took lightly. As somebody who's been in recovery for a long time, I spent years very resistant to the idea that psychedelics could be of any benefit to me. As I've said many times on the show before, if you tell an addict that the answer to all of their Questions and the solution to all of their problems lies in a very powerful mind altering substance. That in and of itself is a very intoxicating idea and it scared me. So despite the fact that there was quite a bit of science emerging about the beneficial impact of psychedelic compounds on things like depression and ptsd, I just basically decided it wasn't for me. And then over the course of a number of years, it kept coming up on the podcast. Not because the guest that I had invited on the show was there to talk about it, but it would just come up naturally. And it just, over a very long period of time, became more and more evident that there was something there worthy of exploration. And I started to open up to the possibility that perhaps this might be helpful to me. Which is all a long way of leading up to my decision to do this psilocybin experience with mdma, which you were present for. Without that, I wouldn't have done the iboga experience, but it cracked something open in me. I've been in talk therapy for, I don't know, 30 years. I'm in a men's group. There's lots of things that I do, there's lots of modalities that I've, I've availed myself of, and I still run into blocks. You know, despite all of that, like, I still am stuck in recursive patterns of behavior that don't serve me. I'm still mired in resentments over things that happened in early childhood, and I'm still victim to a negative inner monologue
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B
in my own process of spiritual seeking and transformation. I have not used psychedelics. However, in your case, for a being that is wired the way you are, I did see the potential benefit in it. And so I was supportive of you exploring this journey.
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A
Your support is the most important piece in this. I'm not going to run off and do this unless you're in my corner as, as an advocate of this. So that, that's a really important aspect of this. And yes, I'm not sharing this because I'm advocating it for anybody else. I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not somebody who has all that much experience in the world of psychedelics. I'm here to just share my experience in the hope that perhaps it's helpful to another person. But please do not be under the impression that I'm advising anybody to do this. These are very powerful compounds, and when they're in the wrong hands or administered to the wrong person at the wrong time, it's going to be across purposes with the intention of them being helpful. So caution is advised. Please consult mental health professionals before even beginning to entertain this as. As being something that. That. That you should or shouldn't do. With that being said, it was very difficult at times. There were moments where I really felt like I was flirting with madness, that I was locked in a padded room, and that my entire life was a projection in the mind of an insane person. There were those moments of simultaneous death and birth, and that was scary. You know, it was scary. It was like, am I ever going to return to my body? Do I even exist outside of a mental projection? Perhaps my entire life is something I've purely imagined. And I did have that experience in the aftermath of looking at the books in this woman's library, realizing so many of them had been written by people who have been on the podcast and thinking, like, that scene at the end of the Usual Suspects when you look up at the board and, like, all of that stuff is, the whole mystery is revealed that my life was a complete fabrication and that I had never not been in that library looking at those books, and I'd only imagined this existence where I hosted a podcast and actually had relationships with these people. And that's a scary thought. Yeah. And yes, in those terrifying moments, I would repeatedly return to you and you would tell me, like, it's going to be okay. And what I took from that in those moments was that you were showing up as the face of God in this divine feminine to say, like, don't worry about it. And I think that's relevant in the context of sharing this iboga experience because it was administered by women, and there was a very palpable, like, feminine energy that ended up being very healing and important to me. And it made me appreciate the power of the feminine as this portal to the unseen. You know, these women who are like, we're here and we're going to show you this stuff that the male energy struggles with so mightily, and we're going to do it from this place of grace and compassion and unconditional love. That was really kind of overwhelming for me at times, but very meaningful in any event. That was then, right? And so in the wake of that, it was like, that was good. I got a lot out of that. Am I changed? Maybe only other people can reflect that back to me through their experience of me, but I know that it didn't, like, solve these recursive patterns that continue to trip me up and interfere with this process of change and self actualization. So over the last Year, for whatever reason, like, ibogaine just kept coming up, right? I think the first time I heard of it was in the context of addiction recovery because there was some promising results with, like, really hard case addicts who had undergone ibogaine treatment and had had some pretty legitimate recovery benefits as a. As a result of that, like, able to. Able to, like, you know, really get off, like, the hard drugs and things like that. So that was, like, lodged in the back of my mind. But then for whatever reason, perhaps just it was in the culture, it just kept coming up, and it kept coming up, and then suddenly it would show up in my Instagram feed. And we had had a few discussions about it, and I think at one point you even mentioned, like, have you looked into this? Maybe you should explore this. And I kind of filed that in my memory bank. And then I was in Florida this past year at the Eudaimonia Summit, and I met a woman who. Who runs a facility in Mexico where they take people through ibogaine treatments. And she was telling me all about what they do. And I said, that's really interesting to me. This does keep coming up. Like, I would like to know more. You know, I'm learning more about this. And I called you and I said, I just met this woman, and this is what she does. And I think this is really interesting. Maybe we should talk to her. And you said.
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B
I said, I mean, just to sort of bookend. So the other experience, your journey ebbed and flowed. So you had moments of complete transcendence, and then the darkness would slap back, like, worse than ever. So it was very in and out, very bumpy, but moments of completely, like, who are you? Like, in a beautiful way, amazing way, magical, playful, connected to your heart, all those things. So it'd be been over a year, and I had heard you talking about ibogaine, and I knew that this was sort of the substance that had the addiction recovery, the transcendence related to it. And I was invited to actually a dinner party, and I walked in to see a very dear friend of mine that I know quite well, and she was with a woman. And there was something in my body that I just was pulled to this woman immediately before greeting anyone else. I slid my arms around her and embraced her. And I said, it's so beautiful to see you again. And she said, I'm completely touched by you, and I've never met you before. So it was a very.
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A
You thought that.
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B
You thought that you knew her? Yeah, that I knew her. I didn't have a Mental idea where I had met her. But I had this just overwhelming. I was drawn to her without. It was the most beautiful drawing, like magnetism to this woman. And she really embodied a beautiful, feminine mother, Gorgeous frequency. That's as most I can say. And I was sitting at dinner and there was a man who was sharing his success with plant journeys. And he's sober, individual. And I, you know, as I said, I'm not an advocate for plant journeys. It's not my, it's not my standard. But out of curiosity, I said, so you found it very transcendent. And I said, would you tell me about that? And he said, well, I've taken all of many, many, many, many plant medicines, ayahuasca, all these other things. And he said, but this experience that I had literally changed my life forever in the best way. And he said, iboga. And I said, so with iboga. And he said specifically iboga with her. And he pointed to the woman that I had been drawn to. So I came home, we exchanged numbers and we, you know, we became close and we had, you know, chatted on the phone for an hour and shared all our spiritual experiences. And I knew she was quite versed with the root. She had gone to the, the country of origin and met the indigenous and worked with them. And she specifically talked about that she worked with the feminine aspect of the plant, where in sort of, I'd say, clinical formats, it was her opinion, or what I understood is that they're actually only working with part of it and it's the masculine part of it. So I came home and I said, I'm not interested in plant medicine ceremonies, but if she was having one tomorrow, I would go like that. That is what I felt. So I wanted you to connect with her because I said, I may have found the woman for you, the one that could hold you in this space.
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One of the things that comes up constantly in my podcast conversations with nutrition experts is the insane fact that According to the NIH, an estimated 90 to 95% percent of people do not consume the recommended daily amount of fiber. Fiber deficiency leads to all kinds of long term negative health consequences like higher cholesterol levels, insulin resistance, and it also puts people at higher risk for cardiovascular disease and even colon cancer. But for whatever reason, it's overlooked. Well, no more, because here comes Momentous to the rescue with their new top shelf Fiber plus product, which I have in my hand right here. Momentous is and for a long time has been my supplement brand of choice for one reason, trust. The same reason Momentous is relied upon by so many pro and elite athletes because they set the highest standard when it comes to quality, sourcing and control, because everything is so rigorously tested and because their products are NSF certified for sport. Honestly, no other brand can make these claims. I love it. But listen, check it out for yourself. Start by reading up on Fiber plus by going to livemomentous.com richroll and use my special Code Rich Roll to save up to 35% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Freaks of Nature. If you're like me, active outdoors a lot, prone to sweating tons, and into clean personal care products, then you probably have had a few experiences testing some of these products only to discover they're great in theory, but underwhelming when it comes to actually working. But I gotta say, this stuff is great. It gets the job done and then some. All without trade offs. When it comes to clean ingredients, I've been using their deodorant and their mineral broad spectrum SPF 50 sun stick. Both of these have earned a permanent place in my routine. The deodorant is aluminum and baking soda free, of course, but somehow still holds up through long training days, which frankly surprised me. And their Sun Stick really does go on incredibly smooth leaves, no white cast, and makes it ridiculously easy to protect your skin when you're outside for hours. Their Sun Sticks sold out last summer and their deodorant sold out within one month of launching. But good news, everything is back in stock right now. I'm all in. I suggest you will be too. And right now is the time because when you go to freaksofnature.com which is what you're going to do right now, and you use the Code Rich Roll, you're going to save 20% when you order now before it sells out again. So do it. So you put us in touch. I called her and asked her a bunch of questions and she said, well, I might be able to accommodate you in one of these experiences, like in two or two months or something like that. And I said, well, you know, I'm interested, you know, pencil me in. Based almost entirely upon your experience with her because again, like that was really important, the fact that you were really taken by her. And that gave me a comfort level and a sense of feeling supported in this short of that I don't know if I would have explored it. And that was followed by, you know, a couple WhatsApp messages and that was kind of it. And I was crazy busy leading up
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to
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traveling out of town, out of the country to do this. So I didn't really look into it that much or think about it that much. I spent some time on my intentions, and that was always kind of running in the back of my mind, like, what am I? Because I know that's super important, but I didn't do a bunch of research on what this was going to be like or what this compound is, partly because I wanted to just have an experience and not go in and over intellectualize it. But had I known what I was going to get involved with, I probably, I can guarantee you I would not have done it. You know what I mean?
- [19:36]
B
So, I mean, I think it's also important just to mention that I was away in my own journey in India. I had signed up for a 28 day panchakarma, which is an eastern Indian cleanse, detox, rejuvenation, entire process of taking the body down to the. To the base level and building it back up. So I had left, and I was in India under doctor's treatment during this month. And then sometime during the month, you let me know that you had booked. You had then booked the. The experience.
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A
Yeah. And you would be coming home from that experience. And then we only have a couple days together, and then I was leaving, you know, so we were kind of like, you know, missing each other a little bit. But essentially, yeah, I fly out of the country and I arrive at this place and I go into this building and I have no idea what's about to happen. I meet with this woman and we go through my intentions. I spent about an hour with her, and she explained what was going to happen, what to expect, how to adopt the appropriate mindset, to be open to the experience. And then. You want me to read the intentions that she helped me?
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I'd love to.
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Yeah. So this is my journal full of like, notes from the experience. But so I had written out like in advance, like, all my ideas about the intentions. And then she had me narrow it down to three very kind of concise, concrete intentions. The first was healing Richard to the core. That's it. The second was to trust and free myself and dive deeply into my intimate heart in safety and know and cherish myself unconditionally. The idea behind this is to bring the softness and the safety into it. And then the third one was open fully to my magic on my balanced, joyful, peaceful path in gratitude and presence.
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B
Mm, beautiful. Love those.
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So did that. And then there were two other people who were gonna be going through this with me at the same time. And there were about four women who were overseeing this. And in the hour before we started, I kind of wrote this letter to myself and also to you because I was scared. You know, I was like, I don't know what's going to happen. And people should know also that there are, like, heart concerns with this. It's so powerful that. That, you know, you have to, like, undergo EKGs and make sure that your heart is safe. And that's a little scary, right? I was like, what happens if something happens to me? And, you know, I don't come out of this. So I basically wrote a letter to you saying to you and to my k, like, if something should happen to me, know that I love all of you desperately and unconditionally. To Julie, you were always the one. Love always see you on the other side. So I didn't have to share that letter with you because I did come out the other side.
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Thank you.
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A
And that was followed by another epiphany, which is, I thought I was going to do ibogaine. And then I'm sitting with one of the people who's going to be going through this, and she's telling me that she suffered a traumatic brain injury and that these experiences have been helpful to her and that she has done ibogaine, but she's never done iboga, and she can't wait to find out what that's going to be about. And I didn't know that we were doing iboga instead of ibogaine. Not only that, I didn't know the difference. I was like, what is the difference? The difference is that ibogaine is the active ingredient, an alkaloid in the iboga root. The iboga root contains 22 alkaloids, and the iboga experience entails basically eating the root, like a powdered version of the root that tastes like dirt or bark, and doing it in the tradition of the Boite people, which is a tribe in Gambon, where the iboga root grows. And for thousands of years, this tribe has been using it as a medicine and a rite of passage for its people. And over those many, many years, has sort of perfected this journeying process to kind of maximize the positive impact of what's possible with this. Whereas, depending upon where you go, an ibogaine experience is going to be a kind of Western derivative of that. Like, you're. Oh, oh. The Western mind says, oh, that's interesting that these people have done this. Let's just take the active ingredient out of it and. And administer it In a clinical setting. We don't need all the. All the ceremony and all the other stuff in this experience. We were doing it in the tradition in which it was intended to be done by the Bawiti people. And I think, you know, I don't have anything to compare it against, but I can't imagine doing it any other way because it was so specific and also, like, so confrontational. So I don't think it makes sense or is helpful to do a blow by blow of, like, every minute of this entire experience.
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B
Sure, you couldn't.
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A
But, no, and I think it would bore people. And no one wants to hear about, like, people's, you know, like, stories of their journey or whatever. And, you know, I. I want to kind of focus on what's meaningful about it. But I will say this thing kicked off on Friday night. It starts with quite a bit of ceremony and offering. And ultimately, you know, you. The taking of this, like, medicine, right? And you get a spoonful of this, like, dirt, like iboga root, that you have to wash down with water, and you lay on a cot, and over the course of many hours, you take spoonful after spoonful. I took four spoonfuls, I think. And like, psilocybin, it takes a little while before it gets going, and then it just transports you to an entirely different reality. And when it comes on, it comes on like a ton of bricks. And this experience, which is highly auditorily and visually stimulating, I mean, you're just. Your senses are on overload, is accompanied by a soundtrack of buoy music that is the most aggressive, confrontational cacophony of sounds that are, I imagine, intended to be difficult, you know, to, like, sit through this relentless beat and refrain that, like, gnaws on your soul with this, like, kind of extra sensitivity to stimuli that made it feel at times throughout that Friday evening like I was in a cell in Guantanamo Bay being, like, tortured. Like, it was extremely, extremely difficult. And the hallucinations, once they begin, were just coming at me like a million miles an hour. And it was extremely disorienting. And I should say, leading up to this. On the plane ride over, I watched the Netflix documentary In Waves and War, which is the story of these veterans who suffer from ptsd, from depression, from addiction issues, from traumatic brain injuries. They undergo ibogaine therapy, and you see lives completely transformed. It's a very moving documentary. I suggest everybody watch it. And that's set against the backdrop of science that's being conducted at Stanford University with brain scans, et cetera, to really understand, like, why this treatment seems to be so effective in what it's doing to the brain. And I was very moved by that. But in that documentary, there are plenty of stories from these veterans where they recall the experience and they talk very specifically about the hallucinations that they're having. One tells the story of seeing a whole wall of Polaroids from their entire life, and another tells the story of being transported to mowing the lawn with their dad. And they can smell the grass. Like, very specific childhood images. And I went into it expecting that or attached to the idea that I would have that experience. And I didn't have that experience at all. And I had a lot of hallucinations, but none of them were anything recognizable. And as soon as I would focus on one, it would change. And something else was coming at me and I was just being pounded. Like this waterfall of, like, cinematic clips and this soundtrack. And I couldn't get my footing. And I'm being pushed and I'm being pushed and I'm thinking to myself, where is, you know, where's my mom? Where's my dad? Where is that repressed memory that I so desperately want to relive and understand? I'm not doing it right. This isn't working. I shouldn't have come here. When is this going to end? Like, your relationship with time is completely bent. You have no concept of how long this has been going on. And it's also a powerful stimulant. Like, it is. It's a sleep suppressant. I was concerned. Like, I go to bed at like 8 o' clock at night. Like, how am I going to stay up all night? It starts at 7:00 on Friday and goes all the way to the morning. I'm 100% going to fall asleep at some point, but there's no sleep and there's no end to this beat and this music and this assault of images and this sense that I'm doing it wrong. You know, in retrospect, I've been told, like, there is no doing it wrong. What it's doing, I've been told, is that it's. It's confronting you with yourself, and it's trying to. It's like a consciousness and it's rooting out your defense mechanisms and your resistance, and it's provoking you and prodding you to see what you'll do, how you'll react and respond. And that gives it a sense of what needs to be worked on, if that makes sense.
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B
Yeah,
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A
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- [34:04]
B
So she reached out to me sort of after the first day to let me know how you were doing. And she was like, you know, he's, he's in it deep. He would run away if he could, but it's doing exactly what he needs, exactly what is meant for him. And then the first thing that you said to me when we talked, when you came out was you just kept talking about the relentless stimulation and just how it just went on and how time was stretched. And I had heard this from the other people that had experienced it where they thought it was like a 72 hour experience. And it's not.
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A
I felt like I'd been there two weeks. I mean, the first night it just went on forever.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then it must have been, I don't know, 7am or something like that when it starts to, like calm down. And not for nothing, like all of your motor skills are impaired. And of course at times you have to get up and go to the bathroom. You can't even really stand up. My hands were shaking, my teeth were clattering, there's buzzing in my ears. And somebody would have to walk me to the restroom and then I would have to like lean on the wall. Like, you can't, you can't really steady yourself at all. It is complete derangement for 72 hours, essentially. And that first night was just extremely, extremely difficult. In the early hours of the morning, I remember being very nauseous and being told that I should take another spoonful of this stuff so that I can purge. People are throwing up. I hadn't thrown up. You need to purge and you'll really get it out of you. I just couldn't imagine taking another spoonful of this stuff. Like, I. I was so overwhelmed. It's so powerful. Like, there's a reason I now appreciate why it's called the Mount Everest of psychedelics. Like, it was just like a building had fallen on top of me and it didn't have. You know, maybe part of the benefit in sharing the psilocybin experience is, is that this was entirely different. There was no sense of oneness with the universe. There was no heart bursting sense of universal love where, you know, death and birth and all of these things are happening. At least not on that first night. It was confrontation, you know, it was hard. It was just pushing and pushing. And in this, in the music, there's like this tick, tick, tick, tick kind of sound that just felt like it was gnawing on my brain and it wouldn't stop. So it was very torturous. There's one piece that I forgot that I left out after I had locked in on my intentions when I was writing this letter that I shared with you to you and the kids. I went outside. There's like a. There's like an outdoor Deck at this place, and it's dark out, and I'm looking up at. I'm just kind of like laying down, and I'm looking up at the stars, and I see the constellation with the three little stars that are in alignment, Orion. And I'm like, oh, that's Orion's Belt. And I'm just staring at Orion's Belt and I think, what is the significance of Orion's Belt? Like, I didn't know. So I pulled out my phone and I looked it up. Can I read you what I wrote down, what I discovered, please? So Orion's belt represents divine alignment between the physical and the spiritual realms. It represents transformation, a cosmic pathway to higher consciousness and the divine feminine power.
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B
I love it.
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A
How wild is that?
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B
It's wild. And one of my youngest memories with my father was of making a constellation box out of a Captain Crunch cereal box and blacking it out. And my dad used to take me as a little, little girl on our balcony every night, and we would look at Orion's Belt. In addition, Orion's belt is connected to the pyramids, the great pyramids, and the Giza Plateau directly. So that's a beautiful connection and verification of you and me and our alliance and being together. And that's profound.
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A
That's beautiful.
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B
I was going to ask, while we're on this, I would really love for you to give voice to the offerings that were offered to this feminine spirit, to the spirit of the plant, because I feel that we are all. We are all spiritual beings in this human experience, and especially with men, to recognize what that is. What is the. Don't gloss over the offering. Like, what is the offering? What did you offer? How was that prepared?
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A
Well, that could have gone better because I wasn't told that I needed to bring some kind of talisman to make an offering until I was already on the plane to the place. So I didn't consciously choose something in advance. I just had to go with whatever I already had on me. But I realized I had a few totems in my backpack. So I called you and I was like, I have this and I have this, and I have this. Like, what should I do? And I had this walnut that I remembered you gave me and you were giving out. I think we were having a party, and you gave them out to people, but I couldn't remember the context of it.
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B
Do you remember now? I forgot.
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A
And then you told me on the phone, and then I forgot again.
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B
I facilitated a fire ceremony during which a feminine being came out of the Fire. So a being in the fire, and those were the walnuts that were the prasad of that fire ceremony.
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A
So I would say the point of the walnut is.
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B
The point of the walnut is that this walnut is activated with your truest intention, your truest heart intention. That is, the fire witnesses it, and it's the group in the community that then adds energy to it. So the fire is seen beyond worlds. So it's opening to the stars, to the celestial realms. And so the walnut holds the totality of the fire that was lit that night. And you're supposed to keep it very, very preciously and only eat it or offer it at a very potent time. So I would say that you were completely prepared and that there was great intention behind that. And just because your personality didn't prepare,
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A
you were definitely prepared. All right, well, that's good to know because the walnut was what I had and the walnut is what I offered.
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B
It's kind of amazing.
- [41:21]
A
So that was Friday, and then Saturday time bent all day and I couldn't move. I just laid on that cot the entire day. I wasn't sleeping, but I wasn't awake either. I don't really know what happened, and I still don't really know what happened on Friday night. Like, people are like, what did you see and what happened? I'm like, it's. It was just this experience that I can't put words to, but also, I don't have crystal clear memory of, which also fucks with me and my desire to intellectualize it, because I want to say this happened and then this happened, and that led to this. And then I had this epiphany, and it just didn't operate like that for me. And it's been a process of understanding that I got out of it exactly what I was supposed to get out of it, even though it didn't deliver what I was attached to it delivering. Like, I wanted those, you know, very specific visuals and those sorts of things. But the tldr is that I did get everything I needed to get out of it. And it's been the greatest gift that I could give myself. But back to the timeline, like, Saturday, I just basically was flat out on my back the entire day and hallucinating and unable to move and unable to stand up and walk around. And you're not really eating either. Like, other than little bites of fruit now and again and some water, you're nauseous. And the whole thing kicks up again Saturday afternoon, and it's like round two. You start dosing with this stuff. And the crazy music starts up again, and I'm just like, I don't know if I could do it again. You know? And the difference being that it then softens. And this next phase of the hero's journey in our. In our kind of travels upriver in Apocalypse now to discover Colonel Kurtz is this rebirthing process where you kind of go through the birth canal again and you reparent yourself into, you know, the perfectly parented child who is unconditionally loved and supported throughout their life. And that was an incredibly emotional experience for me and very meaningful where all of this started to kick in. And so it goes all night and culminates in the morning with kind of some verbal cues through that process. And I just remember my heart bursting open and just feeling so grateful to be there and to be having that experience and also being completely deranged and, like, not knowing what's going on and, like, you know, kind of being, you know, just out of my body completely. And Sunday morning turns into Sunday afternoon, and again, like, it's so difficult because the relationship with time is so fluid. But the final piece, and there's lots of ceremony going on, and there's sound bowls and, like, you know, all kinds of other stuff, but this whole experience crescendos with this connect with your inner child experience once you've rebirthed them, where you're guided through this process of, like, drawing that young person towards yourself and reassuring them and telling them how amazing it's going to be and, like, how you're there for them and you're basically becoming the parent to your. To yourself as a child. And it seems so, like, to talk about it, like, seems like. It seems so dumb. You know what I mean? But, like, in the process of doing that, like, I felt so vulnerable and open and loving, and it was just. It was really profound for me. Really profound. And the kind of crescendo final piece that ties it all up in a bow is this cacao ceremony that one of these women administers. And this is where all, like, my baggage comes up. I'm like, you know, as people who've been in this wellness world for a while, right? Like, I've heard a lot of, like, oh, cacao, it's so sacred. And the cacao plant. And, like, we have to revere the cacao plant. It's so powerful. And my cynical, skeptical mind is like, come on. You know, it's like, it's hot chocolate. That's what we're dealing with here, right? Like. Like, let's not get too crazy about it. And so there's this. There's a lot of talk about, like, cacao is really powerful. And, you know, this is how we're kind of sealing this vessel. And a lot of people get really emotional when they drink cacao. And I'm like. I'm just kind of like, yeah, we'll see, right? And I say that only to say that I sip this cacao and I just immediately burst into tears.
- [46:51]
B
That's so good.
- [46:52]
A
So was this film, you know? No, thank God it wasn't. Thank God it wasn't filmed. And I left, you know, I left on Sunday evening to go stay in an Airbnb for a couple days and to kind of get back into my body. And, you know, I was having hallucinations for, like, three days after that. And I wasn't able to sleep that Sunday night, really, but I woke up rested nonetheless. And one of the most amazing things happened on Monday morning. Because of the heart implications of this powerful compound, you can't take any stimulants leading up to it. So I hadn't had coffee since, I think, Wednesday prior to the experience. And I'm somebody, like, I'm such an addict. I'll just reach for anything to, like, take me out of the moment. But coffee is something I can't go a day without. Like, I couldn't tell you the last time I didn't start my day with a cup of coffee in the morning. I don't drink it throughout the day, and I'm pretty strict about just having one in the morning, but I need that one in the morning. And so when Monday morning, it's very. It's very strong. But I was very much looking forward to that Monday morning of reconnecting with my favorite thing to do. First thing, I brew it up, I take a couple sips of it. I'm waiting for the kick, and I'm not really feeling the kick. And then I'm realizing, like, I'm not even really craving it. And I just dumped it out. And I was like, wow, that has never happened. And that's something I didn't expect out of this experience. I had heard, like, oh, this is helpful for people with addictions. But that was a very, like, palpable, specific, and immediate like, like, benefit of this experience. And like I said, like, an unexpected one. Shocking, actually, to me. Now, that doesn't mean that I've quit coffee, like, but I. But I have reduced my intake, like, significantly. And so that has been one interesting experience in the aftermath of this, and I would say that in the days and in the week. So now it's, we're coming up on like 5 weeks since I've done this, that I do feel different and I do feel better. And that's not to say that I've been cured of all my demons and negative thought patterns and behaviors, but I would say that I'm better. And it's been revelatory in many ways. I feel more grounded, I feel more patient, I feel more able to be present when I'm consciously trying to be. I feel less hyper vigilant. I'm not always like looking for the exit or the way out of an experience. My foot isn't always like tapping. I don't have the same sense of urgency. There's just a general feeling of greater calm and an appreciation, I think, of what's really important, things like joy and gratitude while, you know, not my constant companions, I feel like are more accessible to me and a little bit less fleeting. But I think the best sort of metaphor is that it doesn't feel like I'm walking around with a backpack full of rocks all the time. Like I've set the backpack down and I pick it back up and I'll walk around with it, but then I'll realize, like, I don't need to walk around with this and I'll put it back down again. I think that's the best way of describing it. But again, that's my interior experience. And more important to me is how I'm showing up for you and for other people. So you're the arbiter of, like, whether or not this has had any impact on me in a positive or my behavior in a positive way, it's been
- [51:31]
B
profound in many ways. Incredible. Like in. In one aspect, one perspective, you, you feel reborn. You feel like not you, like not the old you, you feel evolved. And I've had a few experiences with you that are literally the first I've ever experienced being your partner of over 25 years. We were talking about it and it's what it is, is it's in your presence. So what I identified it as is that the old you, even in a condition of helping me, you came with that backpack of resentment, of being put upon, of. I don't really have the time to do this. I don't really want to do this. I wish she was smarter about this. Why isn't she smarter? Why doesn't she know all these kind of things? And even though you wouldn't say that ever, and I think like many women, we can feel about, you know, many levers of energy that's very readily available to us. So I always felt that separation. And we did a couple mundane things together. And it was shocking to me because we don't do any mundane things together. And I said, I'm going to the car wash. And you said, I'll come with you. Just that statement, I'll come with you to the car wash. That was already. I was like, whoa, he'll come with me. So we went. And then you chose the wrong car wash. You directed me out of where I was going and had me go to the specific car wash that was completely swamped. And then after we got trapped in the line, we discovered they don't clean the inside of the car, they only clean the outside. And the old. You would have been completely incensed, especially if I had chosen the car wash to go to. But you had chosen it, so that helped. But we just went through it, and you were just present. And then we got out and we just vacuumed the car out. Like we each had a hose, and we were vacuuming this car out. And then we went to get some food, and you looked at my post and you said, can I look at your phone? And I said, yes. And you took it and you said, you know, I wouldn't do this like this. I would change it. Could I change it? Is that okay with you? And you changed it and you reposted it. And then we went to the movies, and we were lying in the reclining seats, and your face was so close to mine, and you weren't telling me anything. It wasn't anything amazing. It was not an amazing fancy date. It wasn't a big gift. It wasn't a big letter. You didn't write me a book. You didn't do something amazing. You were just there with me. And I felt like you were telling me your secrets and like I was the only person in the world. And I was overcome with emotion. And the movie was really sweet. This had nothing to do with the movie. And I felt like, oh, my goodness, what if we don't have enough time together? And I had never felt like that about you. And so it is simply in the presence. It's not what you do, what you achieve, what you get, what you grab, what you present as. It is the resonant tone of the presence that the feminine is desiring in the deepest part of her heart. And that is a shift that I think gives us hope as a couple that have been together for 25 years of what is the evolution that is possible? Like, it's profound. And we both feel this. It's as if I feel we're on this spiral of time. Like, we started off in the young days that we were together. We were creating, we were raising our children and making art and music and movies, and you and I were writing together, and we were doing many things together. And then the life got big and it separated us by the things, you know, you were achieving. That overarching drive. Right. Just took over. And now I feel like the spiral has come around and we've been given the blessing of this awareness and this opportunity of a next evolution of creation. It almost feels as if the timeline has folded on top of each other and now we get to begin again with all this history. And so thank you for being open, for having the courage. It's a Herculean thing that you did twice already. It's not easy. So thank you for doing that and for being open and to being available on the journey to continue to explore. And I don't think it's meant to be transformed all in one go. I think it's a journey. It's a journey of discovery. And it doesn't have to be all or nothing all the time. It just has to be cherished, revered, honored as really the most important thing.
- [57:36]
A
Yeah, I think one of the things that has weighed on me in the aftermath is the. The weight of expectations. It's sort of like, okay, I'm going to go do this, but if I come out of this and I'm not like, like, quote unquote, like, fixed, and I'm still me, and I'm not, like, living up to whatever, like, expectations I placed on myself or you have placed on me, like, well, he's going to go do this, and this is going to, like, solve this problem and we're going to. It's going to improve our marriage. And if I don't show up for that or I can't live up to that, like, then, like, either the experience failed me or I'm failing the experience and by extension, failing you and everybody else.
- [58:28]
B
I get it, but I guess maybe that's a lens that you're looking at it still as an achievement.
- [58:33]
A
Yeah, but that's the whole paradigm. And so, like, shedding that is part of this integration process. It's essentially like. I mean, the most kind of basic analogy that I can make is it's like rebooting your iPhone. You know, when your technology gets buggy and you just unplug it and plug it back in or you turn it off and turn it back on and sud, everything's working again. This feels a little bit like that. Like there's clearly new neural pathways that are, that are being like grooved and they're overriding some old patterns. But it's not like an immediate fix. Like, I'll find myself just, you know, doing things the way I always did. But I have like an awareness like, oh, I'm doing that thing again. Like, I can stop and I can like take a beat and like reassess. And I would say in addition to the coffee thing, one of the bigger realizations has just been an awareness of my inner monologue, this idea that there's just a fight club going on in my mind all the time. And I think this is true for if not a lot of people. Like most people, my negative self talk is incessant. It never turns off. More often than not, I'm self identifying with it. I confuse it for being me. And I take action based upon what it's telling me. And that is creating my reality. And it's spilling into all the people I interact with and the consequences and results of the actions that I take. But the simple awareness of when it's happening and the ability to redirect or to just put distance between you and it, to mute it a little bit here and there has already been like massive and cool just to be able to be like, huh, that's curious that that guy in my head is saying that thing again. And like, I don't have to. It's like all these, these are all things I know. You know, I think part of the hardness that I've placed on myself has to do with just this heightened self awareness of all of this. Because I've been in so many therapeutic programs for so long and I host this podcast where I have all these people come on and I read their books and I know all of it. You know, Arthur Brooks has been here three times. He's basically saying, here's your dilemma, here's how you solve it. He's only one of many. Gabor Mate. In fall of 2015, I flew to Vancouver to spend an afternoon with Gabor Mate over a decade ago, long before, like, he was as well known as he is now. And he did what he always does where he flipped the tables on me and it turned into like a, you know, basically a personal session where he was just dissecting my soul and immediately identified then, here's your malfunction, here's your Dilemma. Here's what you need to solve it. You know, it all goes back to early childhood, blah, blah, blah. You can listen to that episode. I think it's from October of 2015. In any event, when that was over and we were done recording and we were saying our goodbyes, he said to me, you know, I take people through these psychedelic experiences, and I think you would really benefit from this. Like, you should really think about coming with me. And at that time, I was like, no fucking way. Like, I can't. That's too much. That's too scary. I'm in recovery. You're supposed to be this addiction medicine specialist guy, and you're telling me I should go take drugs with you? Like, it didn't compute then. I was not ready to hear that. And I still don't know that, like, ayahuasca is the right thing for me. But the point is that, you know, this has been pointed out in my path for a long time, and it took me this long, and maybe I needed to do everything that I did to mature to the point where I was ready to have these experiences. But, you know, it's been very meaningful, and it's been kind of littered with these magical synchronicities. As I mentioned, when I was on the plane to go do this, I watched this Netflix documentary in waves and war, very moved by these veterans and their personal testimony and how significantly it had positively impacted their lives. Repaired marriages, put them back with their kids, made them productive members of society. I mean, these were people who really struggled to just function in daily life. Like right out of a scene from the Hurt Locker where Jeremy Renner is walking in the grocery store, and he just can't even figure out what to put in the cart, you know? And I remember I was still in that Airbnb in the aftermath of this experience, and I called Tyler, our boy and my producer, and I said, I watched this. You know, I had this experience. I told him about it, and I said, you know, I watched this documentary, and there's this guy and his wife, Marcus Capone and Amber, who are essentially the protagonists in this movie, and we need to get them on the podcast. And Tyler was like, I've already been in an email chain with, like, in before even I had done this thing, there was already a dialogue that was happening about having them come on. And I was like, how that's unbelievable. Like, the timing of that. And sure enough, they came. They did the show recently that will come out after this episode, and you were here for that. And it was just beautiful to meet them and hear their experience and how they have turned it into an act of service to help other veterans and to feel like the support from that. But I said to Marcus, he's like, how's the integration going? And in these experiences you will hear time and time again, like, it's all about the integration. It's all about doing the work in the aftermath. Mouth. It's all about, like those months after and, you know, making sure that you're very intentional about that phase of life. And I'm all about that. But I'm like, but what is it? You know, like, what am I supposed to be doing? Like, I. I feel like I could benefit from a little bit more guidance in that regard. And so Marcus offered to put me in touch with an integration coach, which I still need to follow up with him on that. So I'm excited about that. But that's also part of the achievement brain. Like, I want to ultraman the integration. And I talked to the woman who oversaw this experience for me and she's like, it's just a subtle thing. Like, I told her what I was doing and she's like, basically you are doing it. And remember, the spirit animal of Iboga is the turtle. It's all about going slow and slowing down. And as much as I am prone to urgency and I'm rushing around, it's been a reminder that, that, that is a facade because ultimately I am like the ultimate tortoise. Like, I just, I'm the guy who doesn't slow down and never quits and just keeps going, whether it's ultraman or taking 10 year blocks to achieve anything. Like, I know how to be the tortoise. And the tortoise in the long game always beats the hair. Like the hair can't beat the tortoise. And so it's about like really channeling or embodying this, like my tortoise, my tortoise energy. See, I'm still myself.
- [66:24]
B
So we watch it together. And, and my awareness when I saw that documentary was that the demons that you are battling are no different than the. The demons that, that those men have. And I know that that's like a weighty thing to say, but Marcus actually and Amber actually address it. The brain, the human brain, organizes trauma in the same way. Like, you can't say somebody's trauma is more severe than another person's trauma. And one of the things that was really beautiful to witness was their transformation in their marriage and how it's completely given them a new Life, a new relationship together, and also to learn that he had done it six times in eight years. And so it's a process of evolution. It's not about getting it right. It's not like if you get it, a switch flicks and then you have it. It's a process of becoming. And also, as with all things in life, we don't get to say what the outcome is. It's having the courage to be open, to see yourself intimately at such a level that it risks everything else. And I'm not asking you to stay in this marriage with me so that we can have a specific outcome. I'm asking you to be courageous enough to be so intimate with me that we see the truth of who we are. And then we can decide, moment to moment to moment, if we wish to continue creating life together in this manner. It's the intimacy that there is no outcome. Whatever is revealed will be shown. And it's beyond the human being or the personality. It is from the great one that is animating us.
- [68:30]
A
Why is that so provocative?
- [68:34]
B
I don't know. It's not provocative to me because I
- [68:37]
A
know it's not to you. To me, it's like, whoa, you know, it still is like. Like, intimacy is scary.
- [68:46]
B
But I say it is a divine privilege. It's a privilege to know oneself at that level. And it's a privilege to know the partner that is my beloved in this lifetime. What else is there? You know, I'm not with you because of a paper, because we said it was so, or because there's some project or there's a structure in society. I want you to be with me because you love me, because you want to be with me. And you sent me a text shortly after the journey, and you said, I love you. I really, really love you. And I replied, what a beautiful message. Please tell me exactly what it is you love about me,
- [69:37]
A
which I interpret as a test.
- [69:39]
B
And you're like. And then I see you later. And you're like, okay, that wasn't a quick answer, but that's what I'm saying. That's the opportunity. What else are we doing? And so you can't get iboga right. Obviously you know more than me, but it met you at the appropriate level and manner and variety with which you ordered for yourself at your highest level. And again, some of these moments have been the most beautiful moments that I've seen with you. And so I'm very grateful and extremely grateful to this group of women that I don't know. And when you Speak to me about them. I feel as if these sisters, these priestesses, these guardians, they held you in community for me in a way that I couldn't. And that's a very powerful force. And I have thanked our mutual friend and we've had long talks and exchange, and I've recognized her and honored her. And there's others that I don't know that were there that held you. And I want to acknowledge that as the feminine, we have powers and forces that have been hidden and suppressed for thousands of years. And it is coming back, you know, the gifts that we have to offer.
- [71:28]
A
Yeah. It made me think like, just those women were so powerful and held such a. Such an extraordinary energy for this that I just thought, like, the world would be so much better if, like, women were running things. Like, it just, it just, you know, the way that men operate is, you know, when you just look at history, you know, and everything that's happened, it all tracks back to men acting out on their childhood wounds for the. For the cause of property and prestige and status and power. And the energy that I experienced with these women was the opposite of that. Like, the antidote to that. I really struggle with this word journey. Such an annoying word. Like, it's so loaded with baggage, but it was a journey. And within that journey contained, like, all of the journey of life. Like, it is this hero's journey. You know, it's like this three act thing where you go through these various stages that mimic the arc of an entire life so that you come out of it on the other side, back to where you started, anchored in, like, what's really important. And although it didn't have that experience of ego dissolution and oneness that psilocybin had, it did deliver on that idea that ultimately, at the end of the day, after you've gone on this entire journey of life, it really just boils down to your capacity to love. How much love can you give and receive? And that's the only thing that matters. But your capacity to give and receive love is a function of your capacity to love yourself. And I would say that my life is one of not being able to do that, of being very violent to myself and living a life in which I'm constantly punishing myself and judging myself and unkind to myself. And if I want to be able to love you and love my kids and love my life and receive love from other people, it begins and ends with my relationship with myself and my ability to demonstrate that for me, which sounds selfish and indulgent, but ultimately Isn't it is an act of service on behalf of other people as much as it is an act of honoring yourself.
- [74:37]
B
It's the highest act.
- [74:39]
A
That's it. You know, and I think I could talk more about this, but I don't know that there's anything more that needs to be said. I'm grateful for having undergone that experience. I'm grateful for you supporting me. Doing was an incredible gift that I gave myself and you helped me to give myself and that the people who oversaw it gave to me. And I want to be able to give it back to you through how I show up for you and through my behavior. And again, I say that as somebody who is not advocating for other people to do this. Not only was it the Mount Everest of psychedelics, it was like climbing Mount Everest without an oxygen mask or a winter coat. Like, it was extremely, extremely difficult. And not for the faint of heart. Figuratively and literally, actually. So if this interests you, and I'm talking to you, the audience, please research it extensively and. And consider it, you know, with great deliberation, before you decide to do it. What I shared is simply my experience. No matter what, if you end up doing this, your experience will be different. I can almost promise you that. But I will say that it's been profoundly impactful in the immediate aftermath, and time will tell how it will impact me in the long term, but more will be revealed, and I'm happy to share more at a later date.
- [76:25]
B
It's beautiful.
- [76:26]
A
So thank you.
- [76:27]
B
Thank you.
- [76:28]
A
And I love you.
- [76:29]
B
I love you.
- [76:30]
A
I love you so much.
- [76:31]
B
And how many ways?
- [76:32]
A
Someday I'm going to tell you the ways, but I'm not going to do that right now. We'll do that later. All right. Podcast done.
- [76:38]
B
Namaste.
- [76:39]
A
Peace.