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The Rich Roll Podcast
Inside ‘The Telepathy Tapes’: Creator Ky Dickens Reveals The Extraordinary Story Behind The Podcast Sensation
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
Hey everybody, over here. I need your full attention because today's episode is brought to you by on now listen confession here. I'm somebody who has spent many decades obsessed with hard metrics, actually measuring the value of my life against the number of seconds I could shave off my splits or the distances I could run and even the number of people my words and my voice could reach. But age and wisdom, hard earned, have actually taught me a lesson. And that lesson is that the hardness required to do hard things is only going to get you so far. The best of what movement and even life has on offer is so much more about soft winds. Because the victories that stick with you, I can tell you, never have anything to do with a stopwatch. So what is this idea of soft winds? Well, it might be that perfect trail moment where maybe you're moving slow but you're in the zone where time dissolves and you're purely present and so connected with nature that you're overwhelmed with gratitude. Or it could be that soul filling feeling that you get when you share a deep conversation with a running buddy. Or perhaps it's just the way you feel restored after that group jog following a stressful day at work. This Soft wins is what on is all about and why partnering with them feels like partnering with myself. Because not only is on best in class when it comes to premium sportswear with gear that's battle tested by world class athletes, they're also innovating what it means, be active and more importantly, why we move in the first place, which is what I care about and talk about all the time here on the podcast. Find out what all the fuss is about by maybe starting with their new Cloudsurfer 2, which is this beautiful, effortless shoe that embodies the soft winds philosophy by reconnecting you with this very why. So whether you're finding joy in your pace or rediscovering your love for running, it fills your cup with that is a soft win. Worth celebrating. To explore your own soft wins and check out the new Cloudsurfer 2 head to on.com richroll gut health is health. This idea is something countless microbiome experts on the show have stressed time and time again. But what does that mean exactly? And how do we ensure it? It's confusing, but it's vital to understand, which is why we dedicated an entire masterclass episod this topic, where all of these microbiome experts highlighted the importance of proactive care, an aspect of which involves responsible probiotic use. The challenge, of course, is that the probiotic market is essentially unregulated, with many substandard products making unsubstantiated claims, but a product I trust and have been using consistently for years. This is the truth is seeds DS01 daily synbiotic. What sets it apart is its formulation with 24 clinically and scientifically studied strains to support whole body benefits including gut health, skin health, heart health and gut barrier integrity, all in just two capsules a day. I especially appreciate how it supports healthy regularity and promotes bloat ease during those active days. The trust factor is remarkable as well. 92% of members have recommended DSO1 to friends and family and that, my friends, speaks volumes in today's wellness landscape. Get into a routine that helps you now by going to seed.comrichroll and use code richroll25 to get, you guessed it, 25% off your first month. That's 25% off your first month of Seed's DS01 daily symbiotic@seed.com richroll code richroll25.
- [03:57]
Kai Dickens
It seems as though my child can absolutely read minds and knows what we're thinking or can see through our eyes. It was person after person thinking they were alone in this unbelievable situation. Telepathy shouldn't be possible. It just shouldn't be possible. Right? But if they just come into the classroom, come into the house, you'll see it.
- [04:15]
Rich Roll
Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kai Dickens. Kai is the documentary filmmaker behind the surprise supersonic hit podcast series the Tonight Telepathy Tapes which is this deeply immersive as well as very controversial seven hour exploration of the rather audacious proposition that certain non speaking autistic individuals just might possess powers we've always presumed impossible. Now, if nothing else, it's a compelling X Files esque experience. And as somebody who really wants to believe, I will fully admit to being absolutely captivated by this series. The scientific minded side of however, wants to outright dismiss everything extra perceptory as an egregious offense to basically everything we know and can prove about the material world at the same time. I just can't stop thinking about it.
- [05:12]
Kai Dickens
No one should take this up at face value. I mean, it's repeatable over and over and over again as many times as you want it to be. And it's not a question for any of us of like if it's happening, it's just why and how.
- [05:23]
Rich Roll
Not only is Kai challenging traditional notions regarding the inner lives of the neurodivergent, she's also asking a much bigger and more important question, a question I think we need to be asking, that gets to the heart of the hard problem of consciousness. The answer to which she suggests just might completely upend the materialist paradigm upon which we define the very nature of reality itself. It's a lot. I get it. Is this just all insane, or is it possible that there is more going on here than meets the eye? Well, all I can tell you is buckle up, people, because this one is a wild ride.
- [06:06]
Kai Dickens
Out of consciousness came everything else. And if that's the case, then we can account for all these mysterious abilities that we know. These things happen. We have no idea how these gifts are possible or how someone gets the knowledge. But you can't unsee it. So then you just have to try to explain it.
- [06:23]
Rich Roll
This is fucking crazy shit.
- [06:24]
Kai Dickens
It's crazy. Yeah.
- [06:31]
Rich Roll
Kai, it's just an absolute delight to have you here. I am obsessed with the Telepathy tapes. I was sharing with you a few minutes ago about a road trip that I was on with my youngest daughter, who's 16, and studying filmmaking, super into documentary filmmaking. And I had heard about the Telepathy tapes and I knew that it was super popular, but I hadn't listened to it yet. And I was like, jaya, let's check this out. And we listened to, I think, like the first four episodes over the course of this drive. And we just kept looking at each other as we were driving. We're like, what? I've been, you know, just kind of riveted by this subject matter ever since. And so I'm very thankful to have you here today to kind of expand upon these fascinating ideas. And you've been on quite a rocket ship with this thing. Let's just start with, you know, what is the Telepathy tapes? How did you get into this? And what is the kind of core thesis that you're advancing in this series?
- [07:27]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, for sure. So the Telepathy tapes has been a multi year project looking at non speakers, which are individuals with autism and apraxia. So apraxia is a mind body disconnect. So you are very much in there. You're intelligent, but often because you can't speak, people assume you can't think, which is not fair. And so many individuals who are non speakers have been kind of deemed incompetent or have been taught unfairly, like they're, you know, children and aren't understanding the world. So there was a neuroscientist by the name of Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell. She studied at Johns Hopkins. She taught At Harvard for a while. And when she was studying savant syndrome, she came across a few parents who said, look, I think that some of our children are actually reading our mind. It might not be a savant scale, like they've memorized every book on the shelf. I think actually if I open up to a page in the book, they can see through my eyes or they know what I'm thinking. So Dr. Powell started researching this. I heard a podcast with her and I went up and met her. And pretty quickly thereafter, I started meeting a lot of these families who thought they were in a silo all by themselves, that this miracle was kind of individually happening in each of their households, that their non speaking children can read their minds. But I think a big question that comes up next is, well, if they're non speaking, how do you know that? So a lot of these individuals learn to spell to communicate by pointing to a letter board. And the reason that's possible is speaking is a fine motor skill, whereas pointing is a gross motor skill. So it takes time, it takes effort, it takes a lot of practice. But you can learn to like, you know, create neuropath that help you spell to communicate. So as pretty quickly thereafter, the subjects in the telepathy tapes, after they started spelling to communicate, they revealed at some point to their parents or to their teachers, or to their ministers or rabbis. I mean, we've had a lot of people in the telepathy tapes who've witnessed this that they're able to read their minds and that that's often the tip of the iceberg when it comes to their quote unquote, spiritual gifts, for lack of a better word.
- [09:22]
Rich Roll
So this idea of spelling is otherwise referred to as facilitated communication.
- [09:29]
Kai Dickens
Right.
- [09:29]
Rich Roll
Are these two things interchangeable or are they different?
- [09:32]
Kai Dickens
No. So spelling, I would say, is a catch all phrase. There's been many different types of ways to spell to communicate. The first one that hit the world by storm in the 90s was called facilitated communication. And that one used some pressure or push on the hand to help someone along. Due to some scandals that happened around facilitated communication, new spelling forms branched out of that in which there was no touch at all. So one of those was called the rapid prompting method. Another was called spelling to communicate. Now there's something called the speller's method. All of those make sure not to touch the individual at all. And so a kind of catch all that we use in the telepathy tapes is just say spelling to refer to this way of communicating.
- [10:13]
Rich Roll
And so your kind of introduction to this World is through Diane Powell. You hear her on a podcast where she's talking about this work that she does where she is taking these nonverbal autistic individuals and through this technique of spelling, is able to demonstrate and replicate a sort of, you know, paranormal activity where these individuals seem to be able to tap into the thoughts of, you know, their mother, their parent, their teacher. And this ignites something in you where you decide, like, I need to understand, like, what. Wait, what? Like, what is happening here? And you kind of. Of go on this journey.
- [10:54]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was in between projects and looking for something new, you know, and I've always been a social issue documentary filmmaker working at, like, broken problems in society. Right. Like lack of paid family medical leave or, you know, the unaffordable, inaccessible healthcare system that we have for many people, LGBTQ equality in their faith groups, like, just all sorts of stuff like this. And so doing something in this. Of this ilk was never. Was not my. Was not of my interest. But I actually had two kind of close friends die. So I was going through my own process of really wanting to understand, like, does consciousness survive the body? Why are we here? These questions we all ask. And often, as the case with a documentary, you often spend months, if not years reading something, researching something, becoming an expert in it before you even get funded or paid or anything like that. And I thought, if I'm going to be doing that much time and effort and research, I want to make it around this. What is consciousness? Why are we here? And I want my next project to be about these ideas. And I was reading Big Magic at the time. I don't know if you know that book.
- [12:00]
Rich Roll
I love Liz, and I love that book very much.
- [12:02]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, so that was just random that I was kind of going through this own thing, and I was reading Big Magic, which I think, in a nutshell, what I took away from that book is that this idea that the muse, or ideas are kind of a disembodied consciousness that you can talk to and say, hey, you don't ask. You tell it. Like, look, this is what I'm doing next. Come work with me on it, you know? And what I had said at that time is, like, whatever I do next, I don't want it to be about solving the brokenness in society. I want to solve the brokenness in people. I want to make a project that explains why we're here, where we're going, and what it all means. So let's go. You know, not knowing what would come of it. I just started reading, reading, reading on plant communication, near death experiences, you know, Ian Stevenson's long work around reincarnation at University of Virginia. I mean, just reading everything I could, also listening to podcasts. That's when I heard Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell. And, you know, it struck me like a lightning bolt when I heard this. And I thought, this is it, this is it, this. And it was just like, no stopping it at that point. And hopped on Zoom with her. And maybe just like a few weeks later, I was up, going, flying to Oregon to meet her. And I think for me, when I first felt convinced, you know, obviously you start doing, you know, we can talk about this, but we started doing our own kind of home sponge telepathy test. But what really convinced me at first was asking her to open up her email and just reading me some, you know, respecting HIPAA violations, of course, not giving names, but just kind of reading me some of the smattering of the email she was getting from parents and teachers. And it was one after the other saying, I didn't think this was possible. I didn't believe my spouse when they said this was possible. But it seems as though my child can absolutely read minds and knows what we're thinking or can see through our eyes. And it was person after person thinking they were alone in this unbelievable situation. And there was such a quantity of parents reaching out to her that it felt just so compelling and convincing.
- [13:51]
Rich Roll
So I'm imagining the audience, like, rolling their eyes right now. So perhaps provide an example or two of these experiments, like, walk us through what these experiments do, how they're constructed and what they kind of demonstrate.
- [14:06]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, so Dr. Powell did a few studies before I even came along. So, for instance, the first individual she studied was a young girl in Wisconsin, and she was adopted. And I think she was most telepathic with her father, but she also could read the minds of her spelling to communicate partners, you know, kind of like her teachers. And so Dr. Powell put this young girl behind a partition, and on the other side of the partition was the person she was telepathic with. In this case, it was two different, you know, therapists, teachers. So they did one at a time, and the girl could not see what the therapist was looking at, what cue was in front of them. However, every time this therapist was shown a cue, this young girl was able to write accurately what word this person was looking at, what number they were looking at, even if it was a fake word, a made up word. So those were the first experiments Diane did. And I asked her to send me the videos of this, you know, right away. And my first thought was, wait. I mean, it was so unbelievable, and these kids were so accurate. So I thought. I asked Ayan, can I talk to the camera guy who set all this up? I wanted to get his point of view. Cause I'm a filmmaker by trade, and I trust the people behind the scenes. So I called him and I said, what was this like for you? And he said, it was absolutely unbelievable. I actually left my profession and had, like, a mind altered. You know, his life changed after witnessing it. And he's like, I was listening to the audio feed. There was absolutely no cueing. There was no way that this young girl could see the person on the other side of the partition. They were so careful and so thoughtful about how they set this up. She did it with two different therapists. And he's like, there's no explanation for it. There's no way that she could be doing this unless it was truly telepathy. So talking to him was like another just chip in my mindset of, like, this sounds like this could be real.
- [15:53]
Rich Roll
So you seek her out, and you yourself, you know, kind of set up these experiments with a variety of individuals and families and teachers and caretakers, etc. And what's astonishing is that the results are kind of unanimous. Right. Like, in science, if you get a positive result in the, I don't know, 55 to 65% range, that's significant. And here it's essentially 100% right. Like, this is replicable, repeatable time and time again in different situations with different experimental kind of paradigms. Whether it's like, cards or drawings or thoughts, it seems that the nonverbal individual is able to kind of, like, execute this properly almost every single time.
- [16:47]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. So after I first met Dr. Powell and talked to her camera guy, I said, I want to set up a test like this for myself. And I asked, who's a new person who just reached out that you haven't met yet? Because that felt like a good way to keep this really clear, that she couldn't be influencing this at all. Dr. Powell. So it was this young girl from Mexico. So I coordinated flying her up to California, flying Dr. Powell down to California. I asked a bunch of camera guys and audio people I've worked with for a long time for help to kind of film this. We rented an Airbnb, and I really wanted to take care of setting this whole thing up myself so there could be no funny business going on. I trust Dr. Powell completely. I Mean, she's a very thoughtful scientist, but I just didn't know that yet. I didn't know her. I didn't know any of this world. So we covered up the televisions and took down the mirrors and made sure that our cameras had something over. You know, there's no way that you could see reflections. We had a partition. We put the young girl behind a blindfold, would show the mom a number, a picture, word, and then we'd take the blindfold off, move the partition away, and the girl would spell the answer. And her name was Mia, and it was riveting to watch. And one of the things that was, like, mind boggling when that was done. As Dr. Powell said, as accurate as she was, which was like, almost 100% of the time with her mother, it wouldn't count for signs because she was being touched and that people will not allow for touch, you know, And I was like, but, you know, knowing Mia at this point, who had just learned to spell, often individuals with apraxia don't know where the body is. So it can really help to be touched on the wrist, and then often it moves to the elbow and then to the shoulder and then to the tip of the head, and then there's no touch at all. And so Mia at this point now, there's no touch at all. When we had met her, she still needed, like, a little touch somewhere, whether it be on the shoulder or the head. So that was happening. And I talked to other people in the room, and I was like, do you think there's any way the mom was sending Morse code, you know, about a picture or number? And, I mean, it felt ridiculous. And I don't think that is possible, especially having watching her spell this way on zoom calls and everything. But for the point of, like, the high caliber of, like, air tightness that these studies need, Dr. Powell is like, this wouldn't be accepted. So I was marveling at it, but it wouldn't count. And so the next test, she said, go and see this young man, Akhil next. He's in New Jersey, and he doesn't require any touch. And again, I was kind of funding all this on my own, and I didn't have the ability to be like, hey, let's send Dr. Powell. So I went up there with my camera guy, and Dr. Powell didn't come on that test. So this was kind of just like proof of concept, trying to understand what this was. So these weren't like, airtight scientific tests. This is just me. We were just, like, playing to Figure out what's possible here. And it was pretty remarkable because myself, the camera person, other people in the crew, producers would take turns writing down a word and we'd show it to the mom. And Akil would be in another room and he'd spell it individually without being touched into a talker or one time we wrote down a word, crossed it out, he started writing the word that we originally had written. And then as we crossed it out and started writing a new word, he started spelling that word. The thing that was most mind boggling for me on that trip was, you know, we were like, okay, he can do words. We tried numbers and he could do any of the numbers. And we did random word generators. And again, I brought these iPads, generated them myself. So there's no way, like, you know, any funny business was happening. But the thing that was the most surprising to me was at one point we had a random picture generator out and there was a few pictures where Mother Manisha would see the picture and not really know what it was like. One of them, she thought, I think she was like, oh, what is this? And it looked like a food fight, you know, And Akhil, who was sitting across the room, types paint P A I N T. And sure enough, that's exactly what it was. But when you think about what telepathy is, you think, oh, well, that's sending a, you know, a message. You're sending something to this person. Nothing was being sent because she didn't know what she was looking at. And that was pretty remarkable. Cause I was like, is she seeing through his eyes? Like, what is happening here? And what Manisha says is, you know, I think she thinks you are all asking the wrong questions. It seems as though him and I can share consciousness and we can just merge in some way.
- [20:56]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that gets to the heart of the larger issue at play here and I suspect was kind of the real place of intrigue for you to even, like, get involved in this. It's almost as if these, you know, quote unquote, like, telepathic individuals are just a doorway into a broader conversation about the nature of reality and consciousness. Because I think the docu series operates on two levels. Like, first, you're addressing the misunderstood capacities of these neurodivergent people that challenges the traditional paradigm of kind of neurobiology, that these people are kind of non compos mentis. Right. But are in fact intelligent and have rich interior lives, emotions, just like all of us, desires, et cetera. But the second and larger issue that you're getting at that kind of comes. You tease it early, but it kind of comes out later in the series. Is this question questioning of the nature of reality itself, like positing that our materialist conceptualization of reality may very well be wrong and that consciousness isn't something that we have, but is something that is. It's like this field that is fundamental to the universe. And so in the context of telepathy, it's not, oh, your consciousness is localized in your brain and you're sending it to me, or I'm receiving it, or sending mine to yours. It's more. More of a tapping into this field of oneness in which consciousness is like a unified kind of property of reality itself.
- [22:34]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think when I started meeting more and more families, for them, it's not a question of if this is happening, it's why. You know, like, anyone asking if in their mind, I think is just 10 steps behind the reality of what's going on in their classrooms and their therapy rooms and their homes. And so. So that why was something I was obsessed with. How is this possible? There's just no room for it in our current paradigm, which is.
- [23:00]
Rich Roll
Or if it is, what does that say about reality?
- [23:03]
Kai Dickens
Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so I started talking to various researchers, reading a lot of books, and I don't think a lot of people realize that we do live in a scientific paradigm of materialism, which is it's only real. Right, if you can measure it and observe it. And our paradigm, we explained in episode six of the telepathy tapes, has traditionally been considered, like, if you think of it as a pyramid. Right. Where there's, like, the base of the pyramid might be, there's physics and there's biology and there's chemistry and all these things that make up our world. And those things are true. I mean, we shouldn't throw away all the textbooks. But currently, at the top of the pyramid, the result of all these wonderful scientific fields, if you will, is consciousness. And there's no way to describe where it comes from or how it works and why it's there. But the other way of looking at it is if we think of consciousness as fundamental, and that's at the bottom of the pyramid. So out of consciousness came everything else. And if that's the case, then we can account for all these mysterious abilities that we know. These things happen. Right. Like whether it's a precognitive dream where you see something and you know, or you have a conversation with someone who died in a dream or something like that or a near death experience or telepathy. These things that we have not been able to make sense of, they do make sense if we live in a conscious universe where it's thought and consciousness that is the foundation.
- [24:22]
Rich Roll
Yeah. The problem of consciousness is called the hard problem for a reason. And that reason is that our materialist pyramid, our way of making sense of reality, is flawed in that context and cannot resolve the idea of what consciousness is or is not right within that materialist paradigm. But if you upend that paradigm and say consciousness is fundamental to the universe, it seems to provide a way to resolve that hard problem. Because if it's fundamental to everything and not a product of complex matter aggregated, like the idea that the more complex a biological system, the more complex it gives rise to more complex level of consciousness is incorrect. And instead it's fundamental and you know, is basically the fabric of the universe itself, right. And is something that we can tap into. And it all sounds crazy and woo woo. But my sense is that science physicists, like they're all starting to realize that there is real merit in this idea. I just had Annika Harris on recently who has an audio documentary series coming out called Lights on and that she's basically asking that question and goes and talks to all these like fabulously intelligent people in their respective fields to kind of explore that notion. And I feel like there's a receptivity to that right now that from a timing perspective dovetails with what you're saying in this exploration that you've been on. Although you're on very different kind of tracks with this.
- [26:07]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things you even just said it in your question, right? Like qualifying this stuff as woo woo. And I think that's what has happened for so long, right? Is that like within the materials paradigm, anyone who entertains these ideas, right, that like a psychic, their psychic abilities or like maybe mediums actually can tap into this or maybe precognition or telepathy is real, that's been kind of thrown out as like, well, this person's gullible or silly or not smart or not educated. And so people who have an experience, it almost feels like coming out of the closet in the 50s or something, right? Like you kind of test the waters like, oh, is this person gonna accept this or be open to it? And if not, you're like, oh no, that didn't really happen. All right, it was just whatever, a coincidence. But I think for most people, if they're really honest with themselves, they've had like the two most, I think, common forms of psi, which is like psi abilities, psychic abilities, if you will, are telephone telepathy, where you think about someone before they call. And it's like, how did that happen? And often you just wave it off as coincidence. But what's fun is if you look back in history, like Mark Twain was obsessed with this and he called it mental telegraphy. And this idea that like, people would sometimes send a letter on the exact same day it was postmarked the exact same day, even though they might have not talked for five or seven years or something like that. And wow, okay, so that's even like a more concrete example of this, right? Or precognitive dreams, where you dream something and like it happens the next day. But the materialist paradigm has been so great at making anyone talking about this feel silly or stupid or uneducated that it's kept these ideas, like, out of the scientific community, out of, I think, culture. But it wasn't always that way. The materials paradigm has only been reigning for a few hundred years, so. So I think people ask all the time, oh, is this something we can evolve into? Is this where we're going? And my answer to that is no. I think it's always been there. I think we've always had these abilities. And if you actually go talk to various native cultures, they would think, why are you even questioning this? Of course this is a thing. Of course humans are capable of this. In the telepathy tapes, especially in episodes five and six, we look at animal telepathy and you have to ask the question, like, how does a school of fish turn on a dime together? Or, you know, a murmur of birds do that? What's going on there? It seems like they share a field.
- [28:16]
Rich Roll
Of consciousness or ant communities, you know, all these, all these sort of cooperative, you know, ecosystems of life that seem to kind of behave in a way where it feels like there's a shared consciousness.
- [28:29]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think especially with now, with, you know, the quantum, quantum fields of research, quantum physics, there's been such a greater exploration into this weird stuff, right? Like spooky action at a distance and entanglement and how these things happen. And also people looking into this, like anecdotal evidence around near death experiences and things that we just can't explain but seem to be popping up everywhere. And I think there's enough scientists now who have said, look, there's more than we can explain. And there's actually been something called the academy of post materialist, you know, science that has kind of sprung up for scientists that say, hey, like, like we need to live in a post materialist society. I don't. Or, you know, scientific world. I don't think materialism has all the answers. It has many. It has many, but doesn't have all of them.
- [29:16]
Rich Roll
But if you're going to challenge, you know, the core paradigm of science, you're going to get resistance. And I can understand why, you know, kind of what you're saying or what you've observed to be happening is going to be met with, you know, kind of like, you know, it's not going to be exactly welcome. But at the same time, like, what is science if it's not, you know, the courage to like, ask crazy questions like, you know, maybe the Earth isn't flat. Maybe we're not at the center of the universe. Like these people were pariahs, you know, for proposing those ideas at the time.
- [29:48]
Kai Dickens
Yeah.
- [29:49]
Rich Roll
And then science proves it out gradually. So this is, you know, hard stuff to get your head around. It's not surprising that people are going to be, you know, kind of knee jerk, you know, sort of dismissive of the whole thing. But I think within that, when I think about it, you're talking about people whose brains are wired differently than ours. And that confronts us with our own assumptions about the way a brain should operate, what intelligence looks like or doesn't look like, and what reality is. Right. Like, we assume that, you know, everything that we see is an accurate reflection of reality. But we have a very crude kind of like filtering system of perception that gives us a version of that that we presume to be real. But obviously it's a poor facsimile of that. There's all kinds of stuff going on that we don't have the perceptual capacity to perceive or make sense of. And that's for a reason, so we can survive because it would be too overwhelming. But if you take somebody with a brain that's wired very differently, such that they can't feel their appendages or they don't know where they are in space and time, just like somebody who is blind who has to develop like echolocation or finally attune another sense, these are people who have, I would have to believe, a more robust connection with and relationship with consciousness because they're living in their minds. And so it makes sense to me intuitively that they would develop like, you know, a different relationship with that than we have because we're just being stimulated in ways that they're not and they have to find different ways to communicate. And we have such a reductive idea of what it means to be intelligent or to be human. Because you can speak, that means you're, you know, one thing and if you can't, you're another thing. But like language is so crude, right? Like we're like these mouth breathing creatures. But what is language other than, you know, kind of waves of energy that come out of our mouth that are received by somebody else, like that are. That's invisible, right?
- [32:03]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, it's when you start thinking about it.
- [32:04]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Like the more you think about it, the whole thing kind of unravels a little bit.
- [32:08]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. And you know, the things that have been fascinating to me and I remember just being like, what When I first started hearing this from multiple parents and teachers was that many people with apraxia really know they have a body or can't feel their body or can't find their body. And it can take a lot of like physical therapy. Like, here's your fingers, here's your hand. And that's why in facilitated communication in the beginning, it was like really helpful to actually put some pressure on a hand and be like, here, this is what you're using so they can locate themselves so you can locate yourself. And for me, it's like if someone needs to be touched a little bit to locate themselves so they can communicate, like, great, help them communicate. But I think that idea of not being as in your body, then where are you? You're probably living more in a mental space, Right. You're probably more in this consciousness world. So when I started thinking about it in that way, I was able to wrap my head around it a touch more because for most of us, right, we do have this associative boundary. You know, it's like this is this person and that's this person and I'm me. And because it's connected to our body and our like little thing, but if we're out of our body and people are describing that right. When they try, you know, there's been so much research into psychedelics now, you know, and people who have a wonderful guided, you know, psilocybin trip or something, and they realize we're all one, we're bigger and we're more than just our bodies. And it's kind of a lot, it's really reflective of what these individuals are talking about. And I think the same thing happens when you look into the near death experience research. These individuals who say they leave their body, they can see it, they can hear Conversations happening. That stuff has been validated when they come back down and verified. But what they felt at the time was this like unbelievable oneness and connection to everything and ability to like, like B and C more places at once. And this living without fear and separation, that is all about love. And those themes that come up over and over again when someone has, you know, a kind of a psychedelic experience or has a near death experience or what the non speakers have been saying to me in working with this is this overwhelming idea of at this consciousness field, right? It's all about love, it's about connection.
- [34:11]
Rich Roll
It'S about oneness that tracks very closely with those psychedelic experiences which involve not so much like lighting up other areas of the brain as much as turning off certain areas of the brain. Like the default mode network gets sort of reduced, right? And that allows a more expansive experience where you have that feeling of the dissolution of self and the oneness of everything. But I'm imagining these individuals arrive at that more naturally and are in some version of that type of experience by default rather than through kind of, you know, pharmacological intervention.
- [34:51]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. And all I can go off of is what, you know, the individuals I've worked with have told me. And that's exactly what they say. You know, they just have access to more and they're much more connected and in this vibe of love and much less connected to their bodies.
- [35:11]
Rich Roll
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- [40:08]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And I think skepticism is important, you know, and I think I walked into this as a skeptic as well. Like, you have to. This, like, telepathy shouldn't be possible. It just shouldn't be possible. Right. But one thing I think first has to be understood is spelling and what it means to have apraxia. And many individuals who are spelling are independent spellers. You know, like a keel is typing into, you know, a spelling device without being touched, you know, and we would put, like little marks on our monitors when we were filming to make sure the letter board wasn't moving. And it's not moving, moving this way and that way to spell a word. It's just simply not, you know. But I do think there are important things for people to understand, which is when you are spelling, you need a communication partner who's kind of learned this technique because they are helping you support your kind of mind, body disconnect and helping you to try to basically support your motor function and motor mapping so you can get this out. So one thing is, like, your hand might get lost in space. And sometimes if you're spelling independently and you've figured out those neural pathways, great, you don't need any support. But like, for some people newer into spelling or maybe who just need a bit more support, you need someone, maybe when they see you getting lost, they'll take the board all the way away and then bring it back again. So they see, okay, here's where I am, here's what's going on. Or sometimes for the motor planning, you just have to say, okay, go get it now, get the letter. So it's like your body has that initiative. Like, okay, now I should go. And those supports are necessary to help with the spelling. And I use the metaphor sometimes it's like reading glasses, right? Like, just because you use a support to read doesn't mean you can't read. You just need the support to help you. So I think understanding that about spelling is really, really helpful. But once you get to that point and you see that so many of these individuals are spelling, and especially like in the film where people can see it, it's gonna be really helpful. Like on a typical keyboard, like a QWERTY keyboard, like you and I might use on a keyboard. Like, they're typing independently, and Akil can do that too. Or you see the letterboard, Is it moving around and isn't being shifted? Right at that point, it's like, okay, well, what's happening? If there is some manipulation to the spelling, which there's just not. And I think parents and teachers also really want to make sure these individuals are getting their pure voices out. That's really important. Right. To make sure that that's happening. So once you kind of overcome that hurdle and you understand what spelling is and why supports are necessary, especially in the early stages, then the next question is, okay, so did the scores of teachers and parents and therapists and rabbis and ministers and siblings and paraprofessionals and principals and speech pathologists that particip in the telepathy tapes and that I've been talking to and who've been living in this world, are they all coming together in some global plan to, like, trick the world? No. Either they're paid actors, or they're all lying, you know, or they're telling the truth. And I think when you meet them, there's just this beauty and earnestness in wanting to get to the bottom of this, wanting science to study this. You know, Manisha, Akil's mom, always says, akhil is the data. If someone wants to look at this, go look at him. You know, he's the data. So. So I just think that's so important that you have to kind of have a rational mind around this a little bit. And there's so many people involved in this world who are experiencing these things that you can either account for it or not. And that's a choice people have to make. But I think it's a big leap to say they're all deceiving people intentionally.
- [43:27]
Rich Roll
Yeah, this grand exploitation. I mean, throughout the series, there's just so many people that you're talking to, and many of them weren't even comfortable talking about it publicly. They felt like maybe they were crazy for thinking that. And you give them this permission, you know, to kind of talk about it. That almost feels Cathartic for them. It's not like, oh, you know, I'm here to convince people that, like, my child is the most special one in the universe. And there's sort of a relief to it. Like, there's a joy, and that feels pure, I guess. But with respect to, like, spelling, just so, like, the audience is clear. Like, for somebody with apraxia who can't really find their. Their body, the touching piece, like, in the training, like, getting people, these individuals, like, acclimated around this, like, there does, you know, you got to, like, kind of do that for a while. Over time, then they start to develop a greater facility for it until you can kind of. Then all you have to do is touch the shoulder and they kind of know what's going on, and then you can kind of not touch them at all anymore. For some people is that.
- [44:33]
Kai Dickens
Actually, it's way more extreme, I think, for people going through some of these big spelling programs where you cannot touch at, like, you should not be touching at all. And so I think most spellers aren't being touched at all. There's no touch you should not touch.
- [44:44]
Rich Roll
Learn how to do that initially, right?
- [44:46]
Kai Dickens
Well, it depends on the family, and it depends on how deeply committed they are to the spelling program they're in. But I think when it comes to school, major conversations, it's like, make sure there's no touch at all. And I think a lot of parents are like, I'm not touching. I'm not touching. That's pretty important. Like, the no touch is important. I really care about the individuals who are trapped in their body. And if it helps to be touched, if someone needs to be touched to start the process, great. I think we should do that. I think we should be giving everyone every support they need to start communicating. But I'd say the vast majority of spellers who are learning to spell in today's world are not allowed to be touched at all. That is, like, a huge part of the spelling programs.
- [45:24]
Rich Roll
Well, there's also great resistance within the quote, unquote, like, spelling community itself. There's kind of an institution around this that ironically is resistant to what you have to say. And, you know, this is a confusing thing. So can you shed some light on, like, what's going on behind the scenes? Because you would think these people, of all people would be enthusiastic about what you've discovered and what that means in terms of, like, spelling and people with apraxia.
- [45:56]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, and I would say all of them know about this as well. You know, I've had Conversations with multiple spelling coaches, teachers, people even in charge of these spelling programs who are like, we're fans of telepathy tapes. We know this is real, we know this is happening. However, we can't make a public stance on it because we're fighting to get spelling in schools. And there's this fear that if like telepathy gets brought into the equation, the people who are anti spelling are going to say, oh, look, they're being influenced in some way. These aren't their thoughts, these are the thoughts of their parents. So therefore spelling isn't independent because there's some influence that's occurring through mind to mind communication.
- [46:32]
Rich Roll
I mean, there does seem to be some kernel of, of rationality in that, like, hey, we're just trying to get these people to be able to communicate better. And the minute you bring up telepathy and then it's like, wait, what are we, you know, you're gonna have people like upset, like, oh, this is crazy town. Like, what are we doing here?
- [46:47]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean, what we can kind of gauge things by is the emails that we have coming in, you know, and like 99.9% of the stuff we're getting from parents, teachers, speech pathologists is like so thankful that this is finally out, that they've been experiencing it. And that type of thing, this idea mentioning telepathy is going to make it harder to get spelling to schools. Is making the assumption, one, that, you know, it's such a paradox because it's basically saying that if you hear someone's thoughts, you don't have your own. Right? But I can hear someone's words to me, I can read someone's thoughts. It doesn't mean I don't have my own. So why would hearing someone's thoughts mean you don't have your own? So that's where this like weird leap has entered the equation. I don't know how to rectify that. What I do know is the sheer amount of parents and teachers saying it's so important for this to be out there. And non speakers, most importantly, because, you know, I think people want to be seen and celebrated in their wholeness and in their completeness. And so to ignore a huge part of an individual in any circumstance I don't think is a good thing to do. I think truth can be extremely difficult, but I usually don't think it's the wrong way to go. I think acknowledging truth, as difficult as it might be, it means changing our institutions. It means changing how we think about education. It means changing how we think and how we've treated these individuals for decades, which has been treating them as though they're not in there and not smart. But most importantly, what I hear from parents, teachers and the like is, you know, if these individuals can hear thoughts, then the thoughts that you have about them can be really damaging. You know, I even think about just, I have little kids. If I were to be thinking or telling them all the time, I don't believe in you. I don't believe you're smart. You're making my life more difficult. Whatever might be happening with parents, I mean, it can be a very difficult diagnosis that can be so damning to an individual self. Right. Their sense of purpose and self worth. So making sure that we can clean up our thoughts so these individuals can help regulate themselves in a positive way, I think is really important. And every non speaker that I have worked with has been adamant, keep pushing this message out. This is important. The truth needs to get out. The truth needs to get out. And so if you believe that they're competitive, then my service is to these individuals who really want the truth about themselves out there. And it might be hard for us to handle. It might require us to change how we think and our institutions and how we operate. But I fully believe in their competence and I fully want to help them get the truth out about themselves.
- [49:22]
Rich Roll
The history of humanity is one in which we don't. We don't take kindly or have much of an open mind when it comes to things that we don't understand or that don't look like something that is familiar. Right? And when you take a nonverbal autistic individual who can't feel their appendages and is hurking and jerking all over the place and is making moaning sounds and all kinds, it's easy to have a lot of judgment about that or to develop a belief that, well, they're not like us. And so obviously they don't have the same. They don't have the interior life that we have. Clearly, that's not the case. You know, we know now that many of these people are deeply intelligent. And you're advancing this idea that they have capacities that we lack, you know, and might have these super intelligences, which normalizes kind of how we relate to these individuals. It's a different frame. It provides a new frame. Right. It's one thing to say like, oh, we know these examples of individuals like this who have a facility for math or photographic memory or what is it, calendarism or whatever where they can calendar calculus. Yeah, they know what the weather is on every single day of their entire life, et cetera. It's another thing to take the leap to telepathy that's asking a lot of people. So of course people are gonna be like, whoa. Right?
- [50:49]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. You know what's interesting, and I love this, as one of Dr. Diane Hennessy powder Powell's theories, is that ESP should be considered a savant skill. And this is where she's coming from, is that science tends to accept that some of these skills that we can't explain where they come from. Right. Like, you might be really great at math or music or language or calendar computation, like you noted, but a savant skill. Right. Is you haven't been exposed to it or trained in this yet. You have like an expert level of knowledge. Well, she was like, okay, science accepts these even though we can't necessarily explain. And what's even more fascinating is there's, you know, accidental or acquired savants where someone has a head injury and suddenly they can see meth everywhere, or they have a head injury and suddenly can play the piano like a, you know, full blown composer when they couldn't prior. So we accept that these gifts can come even though you should have no reason to know them. So her I think, you know, idea is like, ESP should be considered a savant skill. We have no idea how these gifts are possible or where. How someone gets the knowledge. But just like these other savant skills, we also can't explain that.
- [51:53]
Rich Roll
Yeah, savantism for me, is kind of the way in to getting your head around this, because when you see these individuals, a young person who can just play Beethoven without having men trained, or the person who, you know, like, I know there's that guy who had an accident and a head trauma or whatever, and then he could do incredible math, et cetera. There's so many stories like this, we have zero explanation for how this happens. To your point, we accept it as true, but science has no way of explaining it other than, oh, well, well, this is. But there's no extrapolation on that. Like, well, should we try to figure out why this might be the case? Like, we're just sort of astounded by these things and the inquiry seems to stop there. And. And again, this is something where upending the materialism pyramid kind of allows you to understand that there might be something more going on. And you have all these examples in the docu series, particularly with language. Right. Talk about that a little bit.
- [53:01]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And I think some of the best cases, to your point, of let's remove parents who might want to attach my kid especially, which I think again, I want to say none of the parents that I've worked with in any way I think are doing that. I think they all are just so grounded. But anyway, one of the best examples of this was a individual, a little girl in Wisconsin. And she was not with her mom. She was with her spelling coach and two other people. I think a paraprofessional. It was like three people in a kind of educational atmosphere. And she started spelling in Portuguese one day and then she was also able to spell in Spanish, you know, and it was like, what? Like, and had never been exposed to either one. And you know, her mom and dad don't speak Spanish or Portuguese. And you know, she lives in, you know, outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So not like a huge, you know, Spanish or Portuguese speaking population. And you know, it was a bit of a mystery as to how this is possible. And one of the things I really enjoyed is when that episode came out, I was getting so many emails, not just from new families, but also some of the families I met saying, oh, my kid does that too. Or did you not know blank and blank. Blank can do this. Like John Paul can speak multiple languages. And I was like, what? No, you never told me that. So it felt as though this, this ability to communicate or understand or spell different languages is like one of these what again, what I would call spiritual gifts. And one of the things that was super interesting to me was when I first met Mia, who was the young girl and the first non speaking individual I'd ever met, first person I'd ever see, kind of demonstrated to let before we tested, did our tests, I met her family, we had dinner after, you know, they arrived. It was lovely. And you know, even at the table there, she was kind of doing some like homespun telepathy. I was like, what am I thinking of? And she would do it, you know, and spell it out. But one of the things that was most amazing is I remember asking her a question and we had a translator there because the whole family speaks Spanish except for the aunt. So I was asking a question and waiting for the translator to translate, translate it. But I think the translator was ordering or something. So I asked the question and immediately Mia starts writing back the answer in English. And then we all were just marveled. Like, how did she write it back in English? She wrote back the answer in English and it was just wild. So I'd seen this for myself, this language ability. I certainly can't Explain it. I'm not a scientist.
- [55:27]
Rich Roll
What do you make of it?
- [55:28]
Kai Dickens
Well. Well, okay. So again, I've been banging my head against the wall for years trying to figure out what a lot of this means. And a few neuroscientists that I've talked to have a theory around consciousness that I was able to really. It was able to help me understand this. So the idea is, it's like, if you think of our brains, kind of like a TV set, right? Or maybe a better metaphor is like a smartphone. Like, your brain might have certain apps that mine don't. Right. I have certain apps that you don't. But either way, like, it doesn't work without the signal. Like, you have to have a signal coming in from somewhere else, and that will animate the phone. And if the phone is broken, it's not going to work too well. Right? But maybe if it breaks a certain way, like, it will work better. Like, you know, so. So. But you need both to animate, like, a functioning, operational, amazing experience with this phone or brain. And so from that point of view, it makes sense, because what. What if you have a head injury and you're able to better tap into a signal? Because maybe one of the safeguards in our brain that keeps us from being overflooded with information is turned off. So that idea that consciousness is something we tap into and not something that we generate helped me make sense of all of this.
- [56:40]
Rich Roll
Right? So you might have certain apps on this phone that prevent the other apps from working as well as they could. So if you delete those apps from your phone, maybe the. The other apps work better. Right, and give this different frame.
- [56:55]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. Yeah.
- [56:56]
Rich Roll
This is fucking crazy shit.
- [56:58]
Kai Dickens
It's crazy.
- [56:59]
Rich Roll
Do you ever, like, go, wait, what am I talking about?
- [57:01]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is wild to think about all of it as wild, but I think the thing that, like, you can't unsee these gifts, if you will, at work. And once you sit next to. I mean, now at this point, it's been scores of individuals and talking to scores of teachers and. And parents who are like, this is happening. And you see the telepathy, it's just. You can't unsee it. So then you just have to try to explain it. And that's where I'm at right now. And I think a lot of scientists and the parents are at, too. It's just like, well, how do you explain this?
- [57:32]
Rich Roll
Yeah, again, like, back to me being Mulder and wanting to believe, but also, okay, maybe there's some fuckery going on in these experiments, like I wasn't there, I don't know. And you know, that guy at McGill, he's got a lot of choice words about what's happening here. But the savonism, that's the thing where it's like there's no getting around it. Right. And we just kind of go, oh, yeah, well, yeah, but don't make too much of that. But you're like, wait a minute, hold on. And to your point, about animals, bird migration patterns, and then the work of Rupert Sheldrake, who was. He's like the og, right? He was looking at this stuff for a long time. Time, you know, many decades ago.
- [58:14]
Kai Dickens
Can I share his story? Because it's really cool.
- [58:16]
Rich Roll
Explain who he is and why he's important to this narrative.
- [58:20]
Kai Dickens
Right. I think it's important that Diane Henness Powell, you know, started this research around telepathy and non speakers. But there was someone right before her, Bernie Rimland, who'd also said, look, I think ESP is a gift in some autistic people. So that's kind of been like valleyed around for a while. But beyond that, I started looking at other people who'd been studying telepathy because I wanted again to understand what this is and how this could be possible.
- [58:42]
Rich Roll
Like, are there a lot of people out there who are studying it?
- [58:45]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, there's a lot of people.
- [58:45]
Rich Roll
Do they have to do it kind of quietly or. They've already been kind of pilloried by the institutions.
- [58:51]
Kai Dickens
I think what's been really damning to scientists is not being able to have a freedom of inquiry. I mean, that should be like the baseline for science. Right. You're free to ask any question, explore where it takes you. Look at the research, have it peer reviewed, have it replicated. Does it bear out? If it bears out, wow, let's do more research. And so I think what's been happening with a lot of scientists is they get punished for even asking the question. But then there's the rebels who have been like, no, I'm going to ask this question, follower.
- [59:20]
Rich Roll
At least there's like the CIA also, right? Like the men who stare at goats.
- [59:24]
Kai Dickens
And all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and we can talk about that for sure in a second. So Rupert Sheldrake, he's a biologist from Cambridge University. I mean, that's a very prestigious school. He's an incredibly smart man and I loved his story about how he fell into this. He didn't believe in telepathy or that psi abilities could be real. He was in the tea room at Cambridge. And there was, you know, I think he was a young graduate student or something at this point, I don't exactly remember, but I know he was early in his career. And there was a scientist at the school, Sir Rudolph Peter. So he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth for his contributions to the scientific field within England. So this is a very prestigious performance professor. And Rupert was in the tea room with Sir Rudolph Peters, who said, I have just come across a blind boy who was able to read an eye chart when his mother was looking at it. And that's fascinating. Well, how is that possible? And it sounds very similar to what we're talking about right now in this interview. So Rudolph Peters thought, well, this is fascinating. It seems like either this boy is seeing through his mother's eyes or somehow has a telepathic link. So. So they ended up doing, like, a telepathy test, I think, where they put them in rooms far apart, and they did, like a telepathy experiment between the two. And it was statistically relevant. It was pretty remarkable. And that changed Rupert's life. It changed his perspective and it changed the questions he was asking. So he has written a ton of books on animal telepathy. In particular, the sense of being stared at. Testing whether or not dogs know when their owners are coming home.
- [60:57]
Rich Roll
Yeah, explain that one. This is my favorite study.
- [61:00]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, it's quite wonderful because I think a lot of us who are animal lovers have had that feeling, right, that your animal knows what's going on. And so he tested. They would page, I think this is before the time of cell phones. They would page an animal owner when it was time to head home. And they would have them take different routes, different cars, taxis, whatever it be, so that the dog wasn't used to the sound of the engine or the, you know, the rumble of this particular gravel on the road. And they would make sure that person was coming home at different times. So when they did this experiment, they were trying to account for all these variables and a statistically relevant amount of cases. The dog would come and wait by the door the second that their owner's mental, you know, mental state was, like, headed home when they were going home. And of course, there's a few moments where a car got a flat tire or someone got called back into work. And when that happened, they had the cameras up. The dog would go back and lie down and go back to, you know, whatever it was sleeping. And then if the owner turned their mind toward coming home again, the dog would come back up and wait and so that was a really enjoyable study. And it was statistically relevant in dogs and even in some cats, which I thought was great. So he's been studying this for a long time. And one thing that he postulated, that really helped get my mind around this is that the mind has a mental field. And this is not uncommon in science. Right. We know that the Earth has a gravitational field. You can't see it. You know it's there. You know it's powerful. You know, the magnet has a magnetic field.
- [62:26]
Rich Roll
Magnetic field.
- [62:27]
Kai Dickens
We don't see the magnetic field, but we know it's there. We know it's powerful. And so why wouldn't the. I mean, it's not an uncommon idea to think that our brain might have a mental field that extends outside of us, that might help us to understand when we're being stared at or overlap with someone. When it comes to, you know, telepathy or precognition or that type of thing.
- [62:46]
Rich Roll
Yeah. We do have that intuition when somebody is behind us looking at us, don't we? Yeah, it's pretty undeniable. We're dismissive of it, but I think we can all relate to that. I just know I have two big dogs. Our yard is fenced. Our dogs are out. They just kind of like roam around out in the yard. And when I'm driving home, I have an electric car. Doesn't make any noise at all. And if I have the windows down as I get, you know, close to our driveway, well, before anybody can see anything, the dogs are, like, right at the. Right at the gate. And they're barking, like, every time, like, they know when I'm coming. And I'm like, they have this incredible sense of smell. Maybe they can smell something about it. I don't know what it is. But, like, I've had my version of that experience.
- [63:33]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And like, for me, I'd be like, I wouldn't trust that. That's telepathy or something. Unless you were to try it in car.
- [63:38]
Rich Roll
I've never heard that much about it, but, like.
- [63:40]
Kai Dickens
Well, no, it could be, but I'm saying, like, if you test it in different cars, right. You test it coming home a different way. You test it putting on, like, I don't know, trying to get, like, your smell off your body. Like, try everything you. And if it's still working, then there's something going on. I think it's so important that no one should take this up at face value. I mean, that's ridiculous to take it at face value. We're not gonna advance anything. We're not gonna become smarter as a human race. We're not gonna become more educated or more thoughtful about anything. If we just take any of this at face value. You have to ask the questions, you have to do the science, you have to research it, you have to peer review it, you have to analyze it. And I think, I mean, that's been my whole hope with the Telepathy Tapes podcast is just to try to get research funded for these scientists where so often it's hard to get a grant to study ESP or telepathy or clairvoyance because it has been historically seen as woo woo or impossible.
- [64:31]
Rich Roll
Well, it should be hard to get a grant because it's a big leap, right? So you better have an incredibly well constructed study in order to put yourself in a position where that even begins to make sense.
- [64:44]
Kai Dickens
But if it's well constructed, it doesn't seem fair, right, that researchers should be like, shut down before they even get a chance to.
- [64:50]
Rich Roll
What is the old ultimate experiment that you would like to see constructed? Like, if funding wasn't an issue and you could have any of the experts or scientists of your choice to conduct that bulletproof experiment that would put all of the kind of hand wringing to rest.
- [65:10]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I think this is a great question and it's one of the hopes that we're going to try to tackle in the film is doing a few telepathy experiments. And so much has come up around this. Right. Is that we are being emailed by a lot of scientists and they all have differing opinions of like, how to make this airtight. Like if the parent needs to be in the room to help the child stay regulated. Can we just put like white noise in their ear so they can't hear any audible cues. Right. Or can't see the parent themself. And. Or some people have said, wait, who cares if the kid is being touched? Like, we can measure if the parent is like doing some sort of thing with their hand or putting Morse code in. If touch is helping them, isn't telepathy still cool if they're being touched? Like, who's deciding telepathy doesn't count if you're not being touched. So scientists are kind of in disagreement with themselves. So what we're going to do in the film is actually kind of bring a roundtable of scientists together, but also with the non speakers because they have a right to be in this conversation. Of course, this is them and their experiments as well to talk about, okay, what's possible with the sense of maybe having an extreme level of autism and being really sensitive to different environments or different things. What's possible that feels comfortable for them and what's going to advance the science? And then we hope to construct like two to three studies around that. I'm not doing the studies. I'm relying on brilliant scientists to help with this. And I know Dr. Diane Powell is doing some research on her own that's getting ready to be peer reviewed through the University of Arizona that she thinks is going to be really airtight. And so I'm trying to figure out if Phil be ready to film for the movie or not. Either way, she thinks that this particular test, which I don't know if I'm privy to, yeah, if I can give the details of, will be pretty conclusive, which is great. But then I've had some very interesting conversations with the parents as well. Okay, so we were planning to do a big experiment in a classroom. And a bunch of the parents for the non speakers in this classroom were like, yep, every single kid who was participating was like. The parent was like, yes, they're telepathic. Yes, they can do this. They can also remote view, they have precognition, like test anything. You'll pretty much be able to see, see it all. So these were really easy to see on the fly. You walk in the classroom, it's easy to see. So we started being like, okay, well let's separate rooms and let's separate this and let's do this and adding more and more, you know, kind of like parameters around how to make this airtight. And it started really stressing out a lot of the non speakers where they were able to do it. But it started becoming like a lot of pressure, a ton of pressure. And then the question was raised to me, which was, you know, why can't scientists just come into the field the way that Jane Goodall would go into the jungle and study chimps to understand their communication and their culture and whatever. Or if you're studying fireflies or lightning bugs in Vietnam or something that all light up at the same time, you wouldn't necessarily bring them into a lab. You'd go watch them in their natural habitat. So quite a few parents have said, can't we just have these people take off their lab coats, walk into our living room and do the experiment, experiments in a way that's just like here. Because if they just come into the classroom, come into the house, you'll see it. You'll see it every time. If you're open minded, you know.
- [68:14]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I mean the problem with that is then you're not controlling for all the variables and you know, there's all these subtle manipulations that could be taking place that are influencing the answers and the questioning and whatnot. So if your goal is really to, you know, create a bulletproof situation that will sufficiently rebut all of the criticism that becomes problematic.
- [68:38]
Kai Dickens
I don't think so, because you can still put those parameters in a house.
- [68:40]
Rich Roll
If it's really real, why can't it take place in a clinical Skinner box type environment?
- [68:45]
Kai Dickens
Well, I don't think that's true that you can't have those parameters in a house because you could have white noise headphones, you could have a divider, a partition, you can make sure that they can't see each other. So I just think it's really important that I mean the non speaking individuals are human beings, you know, and I think it needs to feel comfortable for.
- [69:03]
Rich Roll
Them aspect of it like would then come up, would it not?
- [69:07]
Kai Dickens
Oh, I don't think so, because I think you can have replicated two or three times. You know, there could be scientists there and researchers there. It's not like waiting for a unicorn to appear. It's very easy to see. I think for any individual that I've met, that I've been in communication with around this, it's repeatable over and over and over again as many times as you want it to be.
- [69:26]
Rich Roll
But it's also something that is fragile. Fragile in that like it doesn't work for everybody all the time. Like they're oh well, this person can do it with their mother but not with their father. And you know, if the energy's bad or they're, you know, like in a certain state, like the field gets interrupted, like you know, all of those kind of things are true and real as well. Yes.
- [69:46]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And I think that that's important. Right. I mean what most sound speakers I've been in contact with will say is that their telepathic link is strong with a few people. So it might be this teacher. It could be a sibling, it could be. I mean that's often a sibling, a parent, it might be both parents. So I think that the question, right. Is finding who they're most telepathic with and doing the test with that person and repeating it with that person. That makes sense. Right. And then making sure that who is seeing the cue is not able to be, you know, obviously visually or physically or audibly influencing the spelling. I think all that is pretty easy to achieve with the right funding and just having the resources there to do it. So I think we'll be able to test this out pretty easily in the film. And I also think that more researchers are now willing and excited to do their experiments around this. And for the families, the non speakers, it's up to them if they want to participate in experiments with different scientists. But I think that at least the research is moving in the right direction.
- [70:55]
Rich Roll
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- [74:23]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, for sure. I mean, that happens all the time.
- [74:26]
Rich Roll
I'm like listening to you and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'm like, wait a minute.
- [74:30]
Kai Dickens
Yeah.
- [74:31]
Rich Roll
Like we're just way off the reservation here.
- [74:33]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing is, like, I've learned for a while, I'd say for the first three years, I was always operating on the baseline of like, okay, this can't be possible. Like maybe the first year and a half. What's the loophole? How can this be catering to the skeptic in the room? I mean, that was kind of my baseline. And then it just got to the point where I'd seen it so many times that it's like I have to operate from the perspective that this is true. So to talk about it with me.
- [75:01]
Rich Roll
And I've heard you talk about how it just became like routine, like it wasn't exciting anymore because you had seen it so many times, which is wild.
- [75:09]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. In fact, there was a gentleman, Dr. Jeff Tarrant, who was doing the QEG scans and three of the studies we did. And again, the studies I was doing. I'm not a scientist, I didn't have, oh, we don't have Faraday cages and partitions. I was going out with a film crew to decide if I should put my reputation, my money, my time behind this project. I just needed to Know, is this worth it? Is all of this worth it? It will only be worth it if it's true. So that's why the experiments I was doing, that we were covering, the telepathy tapes was just my proof of concept work. But for some of this, I did bring a QEEG specialist, his name is Jeff Tarrant, to do brain scans. And so he was witnessing all this as an out outsider. And it's really fun to hear him talk about it because he, you know, he will note, like, we were really cautious about covering screens and doing all this and having partitions and making sure no one could see it. And, you know, I have loaded up the raw data for various scientists to watch the tests from all the camera angles so they can write their own papers about it. So I think there's, like, four or five scientists who have access to all my raw data right now. And, you know, it's. You hear us in the raw data being like, whoa, did she see it? We have to do it over. We didn't see it. Okay, hit that three more times to make sure that, you know, we're always, always trying to muddle it up to make sure there's no possible way that there could be cheating. So Jeff really talks about observing all that, which I love. But then one of the things he talked about as well is how pretty quickly after seeing the telepathy in these tests that we were doing 10, 15, 20 times in a row being accurate. It was just like, all right, let's go to lunch. It did just become second nature after a while.
- [76:40]
Rich Roll
It was normalized through the whole thing.
- [76:41]
Kai Dickens
And now it is normal to me. It's like the wall water in which you're swimming. I think if you're a part of these families and classrooms where this has demonstrated itself to be true, which is quite a few.
- [76:55]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I mean, imagine traveling back in time and going to the great library at Alexandria in Egypt and telling the librarian, like, my library is better than yours. And guess what? It's invisible. It's in the east ether. It doesn't actually exist anywhere in three dimensions, but it's fully accessible if you have a thing that can pull the frequency in. It's called the Internet, and it gives you access to everything. That would just be unfathomable. Right. And this is something like, oh, yeah, this is just part of our life. It's not really a mystery. We have science to. Science created it. We can make sense of it and the like. But that would just rewrite that person's notion of what is real and what isn't.
- [77:43]
Kai Dickens
Right? Yeah. And that notion has been completely rewritten for me. And I think again, you talk to the parents, the teachers, the paraprofessionals, the speech pathologists, the occupational therapists who've witnessed this over and over and over again. And it's not a question for any of us of if it's happening, it's just why and how. And just people take it seriously and just answer these questions like, everyone wants to know how and why and what it means. And that's the world in which I'm now swimming. So it's kind of. For me, it's been a transformation of terror around talking about it. Like, super nervous to talk about it when I was working on my other films or working on projects or even with family members, friends, being so nervous about being judged, being judged for believing it. And then it got to a point where it's like, I can't stop. I have to acknowledge what I'm seeing here, and I just have to just surrender to the fact that, like, with everything I've thrown at this to try to find a hole or a loophole, it's real. And I think that's where the parents are. And so now I'm at the point where it's like, someone can be skeptical and they don't have to believe it. That's fine. You can't reach everyone. But, like, we all know our own truth, right? Like, if you saw a rhinoceros and no one had ever seen one, you came back and said, no, there's these huge animals with a horn on their head and they look like a dinosaur, but they're not. Blah, blah, blah. Like, someone could tell you that's not true. It doesn't exist. But if you saw it, like, what are you gonna do?
- [79:06]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I'm a child of the 70s, you know? Like, I grew. When I grew up, when I was a kid, like, esp. Like, all we talked about was ESP all the time. There was a TV show called that's Incredible. Like, I'm older than you. You wouldn't remember, but it was like a network TV show, and they would just have, like. It would just be all paranormal stuff all the time. So I kind of grew up in an era where, you know, me and my friends, that's what we talked about. And then that kind of went away, you know, other than in the weird kind of like, tabloids at the supermarket about UFOs and aliens and stuff. And maybe that's why it's like, that's Part of, like, I want to believe, like, my whole life, you know? And you make such a compelling case. And then I'm like, yeah, but, like, am I just being, you know, like, she. She's got me right where she wants me. But time and time again, there's so many examples, like the. The story of the parents and the kids, where it's not just like, hey, you know, what's the word I'm thinking of? It's like, I know my kid likes sweets, and so when I come home from the grocery store, I have to hide them in this special place. And the kid always knows where it is. Cause the kid is, like, either seeing through the mother's eyes or vibrating on that frequency. Like, you have a bunch of stories like that, too.
- [80:18]
Kai Dickens
Well, yeah. I mean, and those, again, like, the anecdotal stories from parents are really fascinating.
- [80:22]
Rich Roll
It's all anecdote, but, like, it kind of adds up after a while because.
- [80:26]
Kai Dickens
That was a funny thing that parents would say was like, I would watch a show or a movie, and my child would be, like, downstairs with their earplugs on, watching a totally different thing on YouTube. And I'd go find them. I'd be like, you not believe what I just read or what I just watched? And the child would be like, oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And, like, completely reveal all the plot lines or whatever was happening. Or one individual who. Who knew, like, the characters and plot points. And in a book. I forgot if it was the Hobbit or Harry Potter or what it was. And the mom was like, how we've never read that to you? And she was like, no. He was like, no, my sister did. And I was, like, hearing her as she read it. And I know all the facts about these books. That's just wild. But one of my favorite calls around this was for the film. We're filming a young individual in Atlanta who's not learned a spell yet. Because we want to show the whole process of, like, someone who's completely trapped inside, who learns to communicate. Communicate and then see what happens on the back end. And I started meeting this family long before the telepathy tapes was out. I didn't know if she really knew about the telepathy, so I felt completely bonkers asking her on a zoom call. First meeting her. Is there any way your son might be telepathic? I mean, how stupid do you feel asking that to someone you've never met? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, oh, okay. Why do you say that? And she's like, well, you know, he'll lick the salt off of the chips. So we, we started putting locks on all of our snack cabinets. And the second I think of where the key is, he's down there and he's grabbing the key and unlocking it. So then we've changed the key locks with combination locks. And sometimes I'll be thinking, oh, I'm going to go get that. What's the combination again? And the second I think about the combination, he's doing it and she's like, or if I give him a directive in my head at night, like, he'll be bouncing on his bed and I'm trying to sleep and I'll say, stop bouncing on your bed. He'll stop. So she's like, there's been enough experiences in my life or I'll be craving orange juice or something and all of a sudden he'll come into the room with the cold jug of orange juice where she's like, it's just uncanny. And I've always just thought, oh, we're super duper, duper connected. But she's like, I never would have thought of it as like the T word. Right.
- [82:30]
Rich Roll
All of the test subjects are young. They're all like teens or, you know, kind of young people. And I was wondering why there aren't any adults or older people as part of this.
- [82:42]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean they are older now. I think in the film now a lot of them are 22, 25, 28, 32.
- [82:48]
Rich Roll
A 65 year old or a 40 year old.
- [82:50]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I haven't met those people. I mean, I think it's so awful to actually think about what's happened, I think to so many non speakers of previous generations. I think so often they've been put into institutions and I don't want to judge parents. I mean, it can be extremely difficult sometimes. You have absolutely no options. Right. You have no support, you have to work. It's like, I want to be super compassionate to what parents are going through, but I also think for a lot of those individuals that were institutionalized, the lifespan of people who are labeled severely autistic and have apraxia is much, much less than ours. And for a lot of those people, spelling, learning to spell, learning to communicate was just simply not even an option. So I think spelling, let's say it really came about in the 90s is when facilitated communication first was, you know, hit the scene. And these other spelling techniques which require no touch, came out later. Right. In the early aughts and stuff. So if you Think about that. Most of the people who are spelling to communicate, whose parents discovered this in a concrete way about their kids, it's because they're spelling. And those people are going to be in a younger bracket just due to when spelling and this idea of presuming competence hit our social ether.
- [83:57]
Rich Roll
So we've sort of hit an inflection point where at least we're caring for. For the younger generation of these people in a different way. That then creates openness for the bond between parent and child. Such that these ideas are starting to percolate up is essentially what you're saying.
- [84:16]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, for sure.
- [84:18]
Rich Roll
We gotta talk about the Hill.
- [84:20]
Kai Dickens
Okay.
- [84:20]
Rich Roll
Explain what the Hill is.
- [84:22]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And this was another thing that was just such a mystery. And I didn't know how to formulate an opinion on it at first. So. So it wasn't until I met Katie Asher in Houston, who are based in Atlanta. And they told me that Houston said he can telepathically, kind of like enter a chat room, if you will, for lack of a better word, with other non speakers. That they can find each other through telepathy and hang out. And they can do this on an individual thing, but that there's also this big group chat or hangout. And he named it Houston, named it the Talk on the Hill. And so when I first heard this, I couldn't dismiss it because I just watched Houston do like, 20 telepathy tests or more. But it was pretty wild. And then I met one of his really good friends, John Paul. And while I was at the house, John Paul, like, went to the Hill. And his mom brought me upstairs. And John Paul had put all these pillows on his head to block out all the sounds and noises of the house to really concentrate. And she's like, he does this, like, when he comes home from school. He can be there for hours. Sometimes he's laughing, sometimes he's screaming, crying. And he talks about going to this hill, this group chat. And he has a girlfriend, Lily, and they both will go there and communicate. And sometimes, like, instantaneously at the same house, they'll come off the hill and be like, I want to go see the other one. Or, you know, say the same thing. And so when I was leaving Atlanta, after first experiencing this, I thought, okay, maybe this is like an Atlanta thing, you know? And I didn't know how to explain it, but I just knew what the parents were saying to me, which is like, they don't have to be in the same zone zip code. They don't have to be in the same room, they can do this. And it was astounding. And I just put it into a bucket in my brain of like, I don't know what to make of this. I can't discount it because the parents seem so clear that this is happening. The non speakers are so solid in saying that they do this. So it's just going to sit there and I can't make a judgment. Before the sloppy dames came out, before any mention of Hill was out there, I met a minister in Arizona and he has like one of the largest youth ministries for special needs kids in the country. And I got connected with him because he was experiencing telepathy and precognition in his non speaking ministry kids and was baffled and wanted to write a book about it and didn't know what this was. And we were talking about it and we had a really an animated zoom call where I'm like, you're not alone. This is just so, you know, this has been reported on before. And then he kept trying to tell me things that like I might not know about. And one of the things he talked about was the Hill. And he's like, you know, one of the boys I'm closest to in my group talks about this place called the Hill. And I've actually heard him asking other kids from other youth groups in other states about the Hill. And he's like, do you know what that is? And you know, it was just like called the Hill. I mean, yeah, called the Hill. And it like shook me to my core. And then I remember talking to a teacher again who I met later in the version telepathy tapes weren't out yet. And she said, there's individuals in my classroom who talk about going to the Hill Hill. And she's like, but they seem to have different roles there or go there for different reasons. One wants to talk about bee colonies and one wants to talk about this. And there's people from, I think she said, like Finland that they like to talk to and different countries. And I was like, what? And so there were people from pockets who didn't know each other who were talking about this place. And then I met another teacher and she was saying it's not only that they talk about the Hill, but often they'll start sharing words that like we don't use, that I've never heard, but they'll start. And she's like, spellers that I teach that don't know each other and aren't in the same class or aren't in the same session will Start using certain words. Like one word was ploink, which means play that. She's like, they all said that they talk about plink on the hill. And these individuals who didn't know each other were using the same word. And she's like, what do you make of that? And I was like, I have no idea. I mean, some of this I just, I can't make. I don't know what to make of it. I don't know how to answer it. It's wild. But how do you account for it when people in pockets who don't know each other are all saying the same thing?
- [88:16]
Rich Roll
Yeah, well, either everybody's lying and made it up, or they've all kind of been on the same real Internet chat room where this was discussed and there's some kind of consensus amongst this community to adopt this idea, which, I mean, come on, really. Or there's something real and legitimate about this that gets to. To the nature of consciousness itself and also sort of upends the idea that telepathy is like a peer to peer thing. Like, I am volleying my consciousness to you and you back to me in that materialist way, but is rather this field that you can kind of tap into and enter as a collective. Right. It's just like, again, like, I want to believe. Like, it's so crazy.
- [89:06]
Kai Dickens
Like, you know, it is so wild again. I remember the tay for met John Paul and he was on the hill. He was talking about how kind of like dysregulated he was feeling because there were so many people on the hill that day. And we wrote like, how many? And he said thousands. And we were like, why are there so many? And he's like, everyone wants to talk about the project, like the documentary. Like, they're excited that the word is getting out. And I have that, like, I play that for myself quite a bit. One, because John Paul has since passed away. But also just this idea of that, like, was there really this collective excitement about this truth getting out? Like, that's the only thing that will keep me moving forward. Because this is a. It's a really weird path to be walking down.
- [89:42]
Rich Roll
You know, the relationship between John Paul and his girlfriend also, you know, is super interesting in that it gets to not only, you know, the rich, interior, emotional lives of these people, but also kind of like the higher consciousness with which they approach their relationship that gets at this idea of, like, love in a more expansive way. Then we kind of define it and think about it.
- [90:09]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, their relationship was beautiful. And I think it was as much part of the world like they would physically kind of like be together and go on their dates, you know, but also it was telepathic from both of their accounts that they were able to communicate anytime, any place, mind to mind. And to know someone in that way, I mean, how intimate?
- [90:35]
Rich Roll
Like, yeah, the intimacy of having merged consciousness. Right. Like is a level of intimacy that we, I don't think that we can fathom. Right. Like, so you can make the argument that they had a deeper and more profound love than, you know, we kind of experience in our three dimensional lives.
- [90:51]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, I don't want want to be a spoiler. People should listen to all nine episodes in order. But I think one of the things that I think made the series so meaningful to the grief community that I was not expecting at all. This has really become the amount of emails we're getting from people who are grieving has been really, really powerful. This idea that after John Paul passed he was still able to communicate with people on the hill and communicate with people telepathically.
- [91:22]
Rich Roll
Right.
- [91:23]
Kai Dickens
Which was so astounding.
- [91:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So you start with like hey look, these people are telepathic. And hey, not for nothing, like they go to the hill and there's a shared consciousness and maybe everything we think about death isn't real. And oh yeah, our whole scientific paradigm based on materialism is upside down.
- [91:44]
Kai Dickens
Yeah.
- [91:45]
Rich Roll
Do you get like crazy hate mail?
- [91:47]
Kai Dickens
Not really.
- [91:48]
Rich Roll
Has anybody like threatened you or anything like that?
- [91:50]
Kai Dickens
Like I mean, every once. But it's so rare. I mean I had to hire two assistants to go through the mail and they can't even keep up. Most of it is just like me too, me too. Their own personal stories, deep accounts of their own experiences with their own non speaking children. A lot of emails from speaking autistic individuals who said, hey, this was my experience as well. Like there is a heightened awareness. I have these abilities but they were gas lit out of me and so I don't talk about them. You know, every once in a while, but especially seldom will get something that's like mean spirited, you know. But I think the only thing that can keep you on your ship. Right. Is just that knowing that like why you're doing this and what it's for and that it's truth, you know, I mean for me it's truth. Cause it's something that we've seen. And the best thing that's happened in my life, I'd say in the past like few months is bringing on staff to start helping with the film forever. It was just me in this world with the families, you know, and Dr. Powell when she did her test and stuff. But like that was it. And so now having producers and associate producers experiencing this stuff, seeing the stuff, hopping on a zoom call where suddenly a non speaker knows their name, knows their kids names, knows this, knows that, like, and they are like, what just happened?
- [93:06]
Rich Roll
Because they're just coming at it from.
- [93:08]
Kai Dickens
They're seeing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's been so many accounts of my kid can do this too, blah blah, blah, and videos that have been so sounding that I'm like, I can't, I don't even have the bandwidth right now to go meet these individuals and film it. But one of my assistants is going to go out now and start meeting some of these individuals and film the telepathy tests and you know, try to like get more of the footage or even if it's just for a podcast episode. So it's been beautiful to watch other people have their world completely shifted because walking into this hiring process, I was like, I don't know what they believe, I don't know if they're where they stand on this process, but they're going to soon see it for themselves and that's been really fun.
- [93:47]
Rich Roll
So you're a documentary filmmaker, you've made a bunch of films, you're well known in that area and now you're making the documentary film version of the telepathy tapes. While you've already made an audio documentary. Why did you begin with an audio documentary? Why didn't you just make do what you know how to do and come out of the gate with a film documentary?
- [94:10]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean, this is one of my favorite stories I think of my life because it just shows how you never know what's gonna happen. Right? So of course I wanted to make this a documentary first and started filming it as a feature and putting a lot of time and effort and energy into making sure this was real, that I could put my mind, my heart, my reputation, my money behind it. I started seeing that this was a huge world, way bigger than something I could ever put into a feature documentary. So I started talking to different production companies, partnered with one, and we took it out to pitch as a docuseries, a four part docuseries. We took it all around town, pitched it to various networks and streamers and it was met with often tears. People saying, this is such an incredible story pitch. We haven't heard this before. We love it, we love it. We Love it. And we got no's across the board. It didn't fit the mandate. What was it? It's not paranormal. It's not high selection. It's not true crime. It's not family necessarily. It's like, what was this? It didn't fit the algorithm. And my heart was, like, broken after that happened because I felt like this was the biggest news in the world. And I've worked on five previous feature films. I've all found them to be important, but I didn't think it was like, the biggest news in the world. This one. I felt, this is different. This is so important and how could no one see that? And then it's just I went through my own cognitive dissonance of like, could I be wrong or does no one care? Like, am I just do not have my pulse on anything that's important, like, what's wrong? And felt pretty devastated because when you get a no and you know how much money, you know, making a film takes. And so I was just like, I can't get this out. There's no possible way. There was just that kind of voice in my head that was like, but you could make a podcast, like, and then it just kind of was like screaming at me one day, which is like, you don't need anyone. Just get it out there. You don't need someone to green light it. Green light yourself. And I remember, like, running downstairs like, I'm making a podcast, you know, and like, my whole family's like, you know how to make a podcast? And even talking to the families, a lot of them were like, that's a terrible idea. Kai Spelling is stigmatized. Telepathy is stigmatized. You have to see both to believe them. You can't do this with just audio. You have to see it to believe it. And my mind is like, but this could be like the big nine hour pitch to the world. Someone will hopefully hear it and fund the documentary. Like, this is the pitch. And that was my hope that it would get to the right ears somehow. I did not anticipate that the podcast would be, you know, a global sensation.
- [96:37]
Rich Roll
Right, right, right, right.
- [96:38]
Kai Dickens
That never occurred to me.
- [96:39]
Rich Roll
It's wild. And now it is. The. The series. The. The podcast series is the ultimate pitch for the documentary because of how widely it's been received.
- [96:49]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. But I will say we got our funding.
- [96:51]
Rich Roll
You would know how to do a podcast like this because you're a storyteller and it's basically you're making a documentary just without the visual part.
- [96:59]
Kai Dickens
Once I start I was like, this is so much easier than making a documentary. You don't have to have visuals, which is like just audio storytelling. Plus, you can insert yourself as like a vo, like the glue. So for me, I thought, wow, this, like, medium. Things we've seen online or emails we've gotten have been people saying, like, I've had to pull over my car and just start crying, you know, And I was like, I don't know if that happens. If you're watching television next to someone, it's different when you're processing something.
- [97:27]
Rich Roll
And, yeah, it's a profoundly parasocial relationship that you develop with your audience. And, you know, I had the same experience. Like, I was very moved by aspects of the story in a way that maybe I wouldn't have been just watching it on a screen in my house. But the visual image is a very powerful thing. And I think you're right to still pursue doing the documentary. But I think it speaks also to the shifting landscape of media. Like, as much as the tools of production and the democratization of access to filmmakers has been economized and made more accessible, they're still gatekeepers. Costs a lot of money to make a movie. You still need distribution on a certain platform, and podcasting really removes all of those and allows you to tell your story unfiltered. And I think we've seen. I'm interested in what you think about this as a filmmaker. We have seen at the same time a seismic shift in what the platforms are open to in terms of documentary content. When I think back on the early days of Netflix, that was the greatest place in the world for documentary filmmakers. All these incredible movies that otherwise would have never been seen suddenly were, like, on the homepage, and people were falling in love with documentary and watching, like, edgy content and sort of contrarian content or all these kind of, like, really interesting ideas. Like, that was the place for it. But now these companies are so huge, they're interested in subscriber growth in foreign territories. And it doesn't matter how good a movie is, if it is even in the slightest bit controversial, it's just not worth the headache if it's going to create a controversy or kind of threat, threaten that arc of subscriber growth. So they're just not gonna take them. And I've seen amazing filmmakers, Oscar winning filmmakers, have issues with their next film, like, the platforms are not interested. Like, no, thank you. And then they're like, what are you talking about? There's nowhere to go, right?
- [99:36]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, it's a Real issue, I think, because I think algorithms are making decisions more than people. And I think if you were to go back 10 or 15 years ago, there was a lot of, like, insight and heart to, like, this has. I see the story here, like, it will resonate, right? And at a core level for people. And like, okay, yes, I'm gonna throw my heart behind this. And I think now there's a lot of reliance on algorithms on what has worked, what hasn't worked. Like, how do we fit these into that?
- [100:00]
Rich Roll
We know if you tell this story that at minute 4:30, like, everyone's gonna tap out. It's crazy how much data they have.
- [100:08]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And I don't think any amount of data and computerization can replace that human instinct for knowing a really good story or a really good moment. And I deeply hope that people can be back engaged in making these decisions. And of course, they are to some degree. But I definitely think there's a big reliance on the algorithms and mandates. And I think that can be pretty limiting to, I think, some brilliant storytellers and creatives and visionaries at these streamers and networks who probably want a green light more, but just feel. They feel limited, I think, by the algorithms and the mandates.
- [100:42]
Rich Roll
I think the pendulum is always swinging, and when it goes too far, there's always a reaction. I think we're increasingly more and more attuned to what's real and what's manufactured. And when a piece of content is the product of what the algorithm favors, we kind of. We have our own spidey sense or intuition or telepathic kind of sense. Like, hey, this is quite real. I'm craving something real. And when I watched the oscars and a $6 million independent film, like, you know, basically is the biggest winner of the night. To me, that's like. That's a vote for humanity. Right. Like, there was something authentic about that story and the way that it was told that resonates deeply with us as human beings.
- [101:29]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a big truth to that, and. And storytellers should be able to tell their thing and do it in their own way. And I think that the best stories will bubble up from that. But when you're trying to take a circle peg and jam it into a square hole. Cause the algorithm says square, square, you're gonna ruin it sometimes.
- [101:50]
Rich Roll
And at the same time, you being somebody who's never done a podcast before isn't somebody that has a gigantic digital social media footprint. Footprint. You create this thing. I mean, there's a narrative. Oh, it's too late for podcasting. There's millions of podcasts out there. It's just going to get lost. Like, there's too much noise out there. You do this thing and then it just goes right to the top. Like, people are craving this type of storytelling. And there's something about what you did that obviously touched us as a species in a way that made it go viral in the way that it did. Like, how fast did that happen? Like, what do you attribute that to?
- [102:34]
Kai Dickens
I mean, what's so wild, right, Is like, I'm not big on social media. I even have other people now handling my social media. Like, I've never been into social media. And like, so we had. When we started the podcast, people like, you should probably put TikTok and da da Instagram. And it was like, okay, we put up one thing. It was like the toes trailer. So we did not have any presence on social media. There was no budget, There was no money. I made this in a pillow fortnite bedroom. I mean, it was like, really bespoke. And then beyond that, I didn't want any ads. The whole first, like, during the whole rise of last year, no ads, because I wanted to make sure people understood this was pure. We're not trying to profit on this. This is not like, oh, we're trying to make some money here and, like, pull these stories together. Like, it was like, let's keep it pure. And I don't know if that had made a difference, but maybe it did. Like, not having ads on right away. So people understood, like. Like, they can spread this and share it and no one's gonna profit on it. I don't know if that made a difference or not, but I don't know what happened. I think it was like. I think TikTok at some point made it shift, you know? And I do think that, like, a story that resonates, people will go tell other people to listen to, but I think it has to really resonate. And that's what I started seeing right away was we were getting text messages or emails from people I knew first, like, oh, my gosh, I heard this. I just listened to it. Cause it was you. I didn't know you. But now I'm telling, like, they can't talk to me until I listen to it. Or like, everyone has to listen to it before we get to Thanksgiving, or my whole family has to listen to it. And mind you, this was during the heat of an election season that was extremely polarizing. And here's A show of story about love and unity and how we all matter and the connectivity of all of us. And I think that that was probably really refreshing and how damaged and effed up our world is right now, you know, But I think more than anything, then those people who. Who heard it were telling their loved ones, like, you have to listen to this. And that was what I was hearing back, is that people were saying, like, you just have to listen to this. And people were getting it from so many different sources. And then I just think there was that critical tipping point. But I'll never forget, like, I can't emphasize enough how much I don't really go on social media. And my brother one day wrote me and he's like, I think you need to know that there's been like over a million posts or whatever about your show on TikTok. And I'm like, what? It was like, what? And went and opened it and, you know, there's the woman on the chairlift and the woman, like, with her Big Gulp and the woman here and the man here and the guy here, and people doing PowerPoint presentations. And my eyeballs were, like, pinging out of my head because I just had no idea that that was happening. And that was, I'd say, like around November. And then by December, I think it was on Christmas Eve, when the celebrity of the tapes topped Joe Rogan as the number one show in the world.
- [105:13]
Rich Roll
And it created, like, a media cycle.
- [105:16]
Kai Dickens
It was so wild. I can't even. I mean, I just. It doesn't feel real to me, but it was. It was a fun thing for me to watch the families and teachers going through, because here's individuals who've been experiencing this for decades without anyone believing them or listening to them.
- [105:33]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [105:33]
Kai Dickens
And then finally they're being listened to in the most profound way. And that. That was the takeaway that was the most stellar.
- [105:40]
Rich Roll
I went on Reddit and just search telepathy tapes just to see the various threads and commentary. And, you know, it's one thing for you to say, oh, all the emails from, you know, all these parents or whatever, but I saw a lot of that, like, a lot of people who are like, I finally feel seen and heard. I've been having this experience with my child or whatever, like, again and again and again and again.
- [106:02]
Kai Dickens
That's great.
- [106:03]
Rich Roll
Yeah. It's wild how many people have listened to it. Do you know?
- [106:06]
Kai Dickens
Are you allowed to say over 10 million?
- [106:08]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [106:09]
Kai Dickens
I mean, that's like the total of downloads, I think. I know it's over Yeah, I know it's over 10. I don't know the exact number.
- [106:16]
Rich Roll
And had you just made the documentary and it premiered at Sundance or whatever and ended up in an art house theater for a week and then on VOD on Amazon prime, like you would have been thrilled to reach maybe 100,000 people or something like that.
- [106:32]
Kai Dickens
Isn't that wild?
- [106:32]
Rich Roll
It's crazy, right?
- [106:33]
Kai Dickens
I mean, and that's just. And this is why I love this story so much and not because it happened to me. I would love it like when Searching for Sugarman, like as the same type of thing, right? Like just a story where like how you think something should go and will go, right? Like this docu series is going to get bought as a docu series, you know, and streamed and people are going to watch it. Like that to me was like, this is how it has to be. So people, it reaches people and blah, blah, blah. When that didn't happen, I was just devastated, you know, but like, what was in store was so much bigger than anything I could have ever imagined. And it went the right way. Like the podcast had to go first. There needed to be nine hours of describing this and the behind the scenes stuff and crew having their mind blown and conversations with crew and what they witnessed and parents and teachers and blah, blah, blah. Like all those things that you can't put in a documentary. You can't put in zoom calls. That looks terrible. You know, I mean, you can a little bit, but like not to the extent that we use them or like side conversations. Like a lot of that stuff that's breaking the fourth wall doesn't really work in a documentary a little bit, but not totally. So it's like having this forum, it just felt like, my goodness, this was always how it needed to go and.
- [107:39]
Rich Roll
You had to get out of the way. It's sort of like you were incarnated for a reason. Part of that reason is to help tell this story. Self will enters. I know better. I know how this is supposed to go. Consciousness is like, hold my beer, get out of the way. You know, you're interfering with the flow of how this is supposed to go. And when you kind of like relinquish your need to control it in that way that your limited mind is telling you this is the way it has to be. You create that space for mystery and magical outcomes in a way that you could have never predicted.
- [108:14]
Kai Dickens
I love that you said that because no one else has picked up on that. But there was that moment where, I mean, I, I was like praying Praying, praying, thinking, manifesting things all over my house. It was incredible how dedicated I was to making sure that this four part film version of the docu series, but.
- [108:32]
Rich Roll
With a certainty that I'm here to tell this story.
- [108:35]
Kai Dickens
I don't know why, but it was like. And so when it didn't happen, it was just a tumbling down of the whole tower of cards. But then to. What you just said was so interesting because I almost forgot about this until you said that. I remember saying to God, to the universe, you know, like, okay, I surrender. Like, I thought that I was shepherding the story the way I was supposed to, and clearly I wasn't. So I surrender. However, if I'm supposed to work on it, great. If I'm not, fine. If it should be in someone else's hands, do it. Just you make the shots now. I surrender. If you want me to be a vessel, I will. I'm done. I'm surrendering. And that was like a conversation I had that was just like, I clearly was not right doing this. Right in the driver's seat, like, obsessed with it being a four part docu series. And I think it was like literally two days later that I woke up and ran downstairs like, it's gotta be a podcast. And it went so fast then it was just like all summer long. I mean, I was working like 60, 70 hours a week just writing, recording, writing, recording. And then, you know, listening to it over and over. And then, okay, this episode's done, like the next one. And it was just, it was like a insatiable craze that just carried me for like the next six months of my life, hours a week. And then it was just out, you know, but it's like when I got out of the way, when I truly got out of the way, and I was like, I surrender is when everything happened. And then more money than any documentary that I've ever had. As far as budget flowed in from, from donors, you know, just like with such love, just like, keep the story your own, no strings attached. Rock and roll. And it's been like, what? You know, this just doesn't happen.
- [110:17]
Rich Roll
There's an incredible life lesson in that that has nothing to do with telepathy or documentary filmmaking and everything about, like, your relationship to life. Like, it's good to have goals, ambition, passion, passion, you know, this trajectory or this thing that you're trying to put out into the world, but when you hold onto it too tight, you constrict it, you suffocate it, and it's the Courage of the surrender, you know, I think it gets confused with cowardice, but, like, it's a very courageous thing to say. I'm willing to let this go, you know, and let's. Let's let, you know, whatever it's meant to be, let's be in a state of allowing it. And that's where, you know, in my, you know, life, like, that's where all this stuff comes in, you know, when you inhabit that space.
- [111:04]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. It's funny because I think back to, like, my friend Rebecca, who was the translator for the MIA episodes. She was there. She saw this with her own eyes. And, you know, she's an animator and a director for animated projects, so this was kind of out of her world. And when all this was unfolding, I remember just, like, with the devastation of it all, when everything let go, I think, like, she was one of the few people that I was just like, man, I'm crushed. Like, I'm heartbroken. Like, there's no way to go from here. And she would be like, what's in store for you is so much bigger than what you have in your own mind. And I was like, come on.
- [111:36]
Rich Roll
You're like, fuck off. No one wants to hear that.
- [111:38]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. And she would be like, what you are planning is so limiting compared to what the universe has in store for you. And it was. I just, like, wasn't a place to hear it. And it was just like, oh, no. I don't even know what it means. Like, stop. And, like, it's so funny in retrospect to be like, gosh, like, that philosophy is so true and reigning, you know, if you just let go.
- [111:58]
Rich Roll
But it's sort of doubly ironic because of the subject matter that you were covering. Like, of all people, like, you've just. You know, you're talking to these people who are, like, on the hill, you know, and, like, it's consciousness and all of that. And then when you're confronted, you know, with your own kind of, you know.
- [112:14]
Kai Dickens
Ego.
- [112:15]
Rich Roll
Yeah, ego. Right. Like, you can't see the story that you're actually trying to tell. You're in your own way, you know, and the idea that the universe could maybe provide something that you couldn't imagine is something you couldn't hear, despite the fact that that was the entire story that you're trying to tell.
- [112:34]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, it was really weird because Rebecca's like, let go of the steering wheel, dude. Like, it's gonna be bigger and better if you're not driving. And I was just like, what do you Mean, like I'm the driver, you know? And then it was just like I did at some point, I was just like, forget it, okay, I'm gonna get. Get out of the car, Whatever, it's over. I've tried, I failed. Like, that was my mindset. So I surrender. And then, anyway, it was a. It's a really. Yeah, for me, that was a. It was the lesson I needed to learn, I think. Right. Like, you have to completely let go of ego. And I keep telling that to all the non speakers and families that I'm involved with. Like, there's two things. Like, I want to tell it the right way by you or not at all. Like, if this, we will never sell out, this will never be exploited. Like, this is, you know, we need to keep the independence. And, and then two, if any of it ever gets too much or becomes too big, too fast, too wild, too overwhelming, pencils down, just will walk away over, you know, just dropping it. And I think that's nice because it keeps the non speakers in control. You know, we're constantly checking in with each other, like, how are we doing, how we feel in here?
- [113:34]
Rich Roll
Because you're just in service to them and this story. And in whatever way, like you need to show up or recede into the back, you know, for their benefit. Your willingness to do that is what allows the story to like have life breathed into it.
- [113:49]
Kai Dickens
I mean, they don't have a voice, you know, so it's like there has to be such a. Just, you know, they just have to be front and center. And I'm actually really excited because on the documentary we've hired five non speaking members of the production team. So it's more than our speaking members of the production team. Two will be in charge of like graphics helping depict with the GFX house what the hill looks like, what the realms look like, what these, what it means.
- [114:13]
Rich Roll
And they can go to the Hill to make those decisions and have those meetings.
- [114:16]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, they probably can. You're right. And we've been trying to find like a metaphorical film to Hill and like I've been sending some pictures and you know, I think sometimes the two non speaking advisors are kind of like, I mean, it will work. Like, it's like we're so far off the mark.
- [114:30]
Rich Roll
Probably you hire like Alex Gray or somebody conceptual.
- [114:35]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. And then two non speaking story consultants. And they're actually a couple and that's great. And both type independently into like a keyboard, which is really helpful. And then one non speaker who is like in assertes and he is going to be like our science consultant to kind of be like does this feel good? Is this possible with the physiology? You know, kind of helping that we keep good ethical guardrails around the testing. From the non speaking point of view.
- [115:01]
Rich Roll
How has this whole journey impacted your life on a day to day basis? Like do you catch yourself thinking more expansively about life and death and you like, like what is a tangible kind of product of having, you know, walked this path and like how does it show up like when you're at the grocery store just doing mundane tasks and being in a body?
- [115:25]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean I think two things I, I don't doubt now that consciousness survives the body after death. Like that to me has been the biggest gift in this that I was not expecting. For me it's a certainty. Like I don't feel afraid of dying. I don't even feel afraid of other people dying. I'm just, I mean I hate that you hate to say goodbye to people you love. I don't want to live life without my spouse, my kids or my parents or you know, but there is a certainty that like it's okay and, and that is really a calming thing to have that peace. And I think too just this overwhelming sense of love, like always trying to tune to love and really seeing individuals as yourself. And I think I've always sort of been a kind, loving being. You know, it's not like a big reach but really trying to be like what matters most is how we make other people feel, how we care for, for others. Doing right by other people is like the most important thing to me now more than anything else as we kind.
- [116:26]
Rich Roll
Of wrap it up here. Like what is the core thing, if there's any additional ripple to what you just shared that you want people to take away from the Telepathy tape series?
- [116:39]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean I've always had three goals. Like one is I hope people presume competence in non speaking individuals that just because someone can't control their body or can't speak doesn't mean they can't think. You know, trust that they're in there, assume they're in there, you know, and proceed that way. And with that I hope the education system changes. The second thing is to validate spelling. I want spelling to be in schools, in our workplaces, in our communities so non speaking individuals can be active members of society and that we're meeting them where they're at instead of asking them to come to where we're at, you know, and I think that will Change. So and the telepathy was almost like a Trojan horse to get people to care about the non speakers. You know, it's all real, but I think that's the most important thing. And then third, of course is the shift in the paradigm. I do think it's ridiculous that people are made to feel silly or foolish or gullible or not smart if they believe this stuff. And I think it's unfortunate that scientists are made to feel like they're not real scientists if they're asking these questions. Because what if we are wrong? What if the earth isn't flat? What if the earth isn't the center of the universe? What if disease is caused by germs? What if genetics does cause how like all these things that have been dismissed throughout the course of time as wild scientific ideas when they first appeared, like this could be another one of those ideas. And I would love to see scientists and researchers and just individuals be open to this idea and proceed to, you know, and just follow where it goes and see what happens. Because our paradigm might be wrong.
- [118:07]
Rich Roll
I love it. You're in the early days of the documentary, so obviously it's gonna be. This is not like on the immediate horizon. Right. It's gonna be maybe next spring. Oh, that soon?
- [118:17]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [118:18]
Rich Roll
Oh, cool. Yeah, that's pretty soon.
- [118:20]
Kai Dickens
We're done.
- [118:20]
Rich Roll
Do you have a distribution partner already or.
- [118:22]
Kai Dickens
Not yet.
- [118:22]
Rich Roll
You'll deal with that when it comes.
- [118:24]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, not yet. Yeah. Right now we're like super focused on just keeping the family safe. Right. Keeping this tight and loving and effective. And then we hope to have filming done by August, September. We've got an editor working full time starting this month. Yeah. And then we'll worry about the next steps.
- [118:40]
Rich Roll
Amazing. Was there any story or, or occurrence that you experienced, you know, over the, the course of, of the projects that you're on with respect to this? That was just too crazy. Like you're like, this is amazing. But like I can't quite prove it or it just doesn't. I'll get attacked or whatever. So I'm just not going to put it in.
- [119:01]
Kai Dickens
Yes. And I think it's just like we can't even end without saying this. Like non speaking individuals are like, like they're not like oracles. They're human beings. They have teenage interests.
- [119:09]
Rich Roll
They're not freakogs like in Minority Report.
- [119:11]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, not at all. Like Lily, like we're filming in Atlanta, like wants to go like go kart racing and biking and like, you know, these individuals have their age appropriate interests and ideas and want to watch silly stuff on YouTube and have friends and get married and they have romantic interests. Like all the things that make a person a person are all there. Like this is just like a tiny, a little bit of also who they are. So people focusing only on that is like a fear because, you know, these are human beings first.
- [119:42]
Rich Roll
Well, it's incredible stuff. Like I said, I was riveted by the series. Everybody should check it out. And it was a delight to talk to you. And I can't wait to see the documentary. This is all like mind blowing shit. It's crazy. Like I don't even, I don't even know. Like, I don't know what to say. Like I'm literally like, I don't even know how to end this. Like my mind is spinning. But it was really a pleasure to talk to you and I'm a fan. Can't wait to see the doc.
- [120:06]
Kai Dickens
Thank you.
- [120:06]
Rich Roll
Thanks guy.
- [120:07]
Kai Dickens
Thank you so much.
- [120:07]
Rich Roll
If people want to find you, check you out, all your stuff, obviously the Telepathy tapes, wherever you enjoy podcasts, but anywhere else you have all this bonus content, videos and things like that as well.
- [120:18]
Kai Dickens
That's on telepathy tapes.com yeah. And I. All my handles are just Kai Dickens, KY Dickens. And the Telepathy tapes has its own own everything now. Tik Tok, Instagram, Twitter as well.
- [120:28]
Rich Roll
Cool. Well, when the doc's done, please come back.
- [120:30]
Kai Dickens
I will. Well, for sure.
- [120:31]
Rich Roll
Cheers.
- [120:32]
Kai Dickens
Peace.
- [120:43]
Rich Roll
That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll. Where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power meal planner@mealplanner.richroll.com if you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richrole.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner and other subjects, please subscribe subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake, content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior. And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace.
- [122:22]
Kai Dickens
Namaste.