← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
Live Through Your Heart: Supermodel Elle Macpherson On Building Confidence, 20+ Years of Sobriety, Natural Wellness, & Learning to Trust Yourself
02:01:33
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
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- [02:09]
Elle Macpherson
My whole life has been really a journey from my head to my heart. I got on a plane and came to America because it just something moved me inside and I just thought I just want to try this. I knew what I was capable of. I knew what my skill sets were, but I didn't know me.
- [02:28]
Rich Roll
My guest today is Elle McPherson, an Australian born supermodel and global icon best known for gracing the COVID of Sports Illustrated's swimsuit issue an amazing five times. But beyond the billion dollar Fashion houses that she helped build. Elle's story is one of resilience. It's one of entrepreneurship and ultimately transformation. Not one to simply let others profit off of her image. Elle took control of her career in ways that others didn't or weren't at that time. Not only did she create her own apparel line long before that was actually a thing, she created her own agency to cut out the middlemen. And then she parlayed her celebrity into roles in television and film, and more recently founded Wellco, her line of beauty and wellness products.
- [03:19]
Elle Macpherson
The modeling itself, you know, it was pretty tough. But I loved what I could receive from modeling, which was sort of freedom and financial independence and emotional independence. So I knew that if I wanted to be physically well, I had to do some examination around emotional and spiritual body's well being.
- [03:39]
Rich Roll
It wasn't until she actually faced cancer and addiction that she truly began to understand the difference between, on the one hand, projecting wellness and on the other hand, actually being well. A story that she elaborates upon beautifully in her recently released memoir, Elle, which we discuss today in a candid, in depth conversation that really centers on this idea of what happens when you're forced to rewrite your story.
- [04:08]
Elle Macpherson
It's very difficult to make a decision when you're in fear. And if you've got a lot of people telling you you're gonna die, there's no greater fear than that. How do you find your truth? What resonates with you in your heart when there is so much noise outside?
- [04:25]
Rich Roll
It's a great conversation. I think you'll find it both surprising and nourishing. So without further ado, this is me and Elle McPherson. It's delightful to finally meet you.
- [04:39]
Elle Macpherson
Finally.
- [04:40]
Rich Roll
I can't believe we kept missing each other. I mean, you've been to my house. You've spent all this time with my wife. And for whatever reason I was trying to remember, I'm always out of town or something like that. And we kept missing each other.
- [04:50]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. And you were in London. We kept like you were coming in and I was coming out.
- [04:55]
Rich Roll
And then when we were in Australia around this time last year. That's true. I forgot about that in Byron. And even I took Julie up to Mullumbimbi.
- [05:03]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [05:03]
Rich Roll
And I think you had just been there or you went there like the day after. We went to that place where they have the saunas and the cold blenders.
- [05:09]
Elle Macpherson
The bathhouse there. Isn't that great?
- [05:11]
Rich Roll
It's pretty cool.
- [05:12]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, it's very Aussie.
- [05:14]
Rich Roll
We didn't even Know, we were like, what's this? And we went in there and I was like, I think this is the place that Elle was just at the other place.
- [05:19]
Elle Macpherson
And the people that run it are fabulous. They're really cool. And I just. I love the energy there.
- [05:25]
Rich Roll
It's old school, though. It looks like it's been there for a long time.
- [05:28]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [05:29]
Rich Roll
A new. Oh, this is the hip thing. Like, it looks like it's been there for decades.
- [05:33]
Elle Macpherson
They're into all that sort of natural wellness. I think that's a very Aussie thing.
- [05:39]
Rich Roll
Well, Mullumbimbi has its own unique energy.
- [05:42]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [05:42]
Rich Roll
But I love that part of the world. I mean, Byron has become a very, you know, kind of special place for me, and I've got all these friends there, and I just. I just love all things Australia, including me. That's true.
- [05:53]
Elle Macpherson
Y.
- [05:54]
Rich Roll
And you're somebody who, even though we're just meeting today, I've known of you. Like, when was the first Sports Illustrated cover?
- [06:02]
Elle Macpherson
I think that was in 1986.
- [06:06]
Rich Roll
Six.
- [06:06]
Elle Macpherson
85 or 86.
- [06:08]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So ever since then, you made that.
- [06:10]
Elle Macpherson
Big splash, and it was called the Big Splash. I think that was the name of the COVID Yeah.
- [06:16]
Rich Roll
I didn't even know that. So you were on the COVID five times. Is that still the record?
- [06:20]
Elle Macpherson
It is still the record.
- [06:21]
Rich Roll
That's wild. Yeah, I want to get into all of that, but the other thing that kind of really struck me that I didn't realize about your life and career is just how entrepreneurial you've been, like, from the very beginning, always, like, seizing these opportunities and moments to, like, take greater control over the trajectory of your path, you know, than most other people in your situation, you know, did or could.
- [06:48]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, it was more like. It wasn't so much control, but command. Because I didn't love actually being in front of the camera, but I loved what modeling could bring. You know, I loved what I could receive from modeling, which was sort of freedom and financial independence and emotional independence and travel and meeting new people. And so I felt that I needed to sort of expand as much as I could to keep creating new opportunities for myself so I could keep doing it so I could have the benefits from it. Because the modeling itself was pretty tough.
- [07:24]
Rich Roll
So it was always sort of a means to an end for you, for.
- [07:27]
Elle Macpherson
Other things and an exploration. I wanted the experiences. And so I just, you know, I did that Aussie thing, which was like, step outside of your comfort zones and give it a go. And so if opportunities came my way and they resonated with me. Even if they didn't make logical sense, I would take steps towards it and then the doors would open and one thing led to another, and before I knew it, I'd sort of built a brand and had a platform and then started producing things and then started licensing and then finally owning a business. With Wilco.
- [08:02]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I mean, there's lots of stuff in there, like, set aside, like the television and the film stuff. I also didn't realize, like, how many, like, sort of projects you did, you know, in the kind of realm of Hollywood. But was the first kind of entrepreneurial venture when you decided to, like, do your own calendar? Yeah, that was the first instance of that was like realizing, well, Sports Illustrated is putting these things out, like, I can do this myself and control it.
- [08:31]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. And I realized at the time that I was in more photographs in the calendar than a lot of the other girls. And so it was sort of heavily based on me anyway. And I just sort of thought, well, I'm not really being paid for this. Perhaps I can do it myself. But it was a fun project as well. Like, I wanted to be able to choose the photographer and choose the location and apply what I'd learned with Sports Illustrated to my own project. And it was brilliant. I remember, I think it cost, like, maybe 60 grand. And I pulled it all together and I found a producer, a printer and a distributor and. And just did it. It was like a kid that doesn't know any better. When they're going down the mountain and they're skiing, they have no fear. Well, I had no fear at that time. I didn't think, well, what if it fails? Or, what if I can't get it out? Or what if no one buys it? I just thought, okay, I'll give this a go.
- [09:28]
Rich Roll
Were you, like, the first person to try something like that at that time?
- [09:32]
Elle Macpherson
Maybe. I don't know if Christie Brinkley had done her own things. I mean, she was sort of the generation just before me, and she was already sort of stepping out of the kind of regular model mode, and she had her health and beauty books. She was doing other things. And so she may have done a calendar. I don't know.
- [09:52]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And then you had the lingerie company. Right. That was like a licensing deal, though. Right. But that was also you kind of seizing control and saying, like, I can do something outside of the, you know, kind of strictures of this modeling world and create kind of financial independence in a different way. I mean, now, today, with the influencer economy, like, that just seems like an obvious. But at that time, it wasn't right.
- [10:15]
Elle Macpherson
No. And it was really kind of a perfect sort of culmination of events because this little New Zealand company was brilliant at making underwear. They came to me and said, will you be the face of our brand? I was looking for a project. I didn't know what because I had already kind of seen licensing in action as a child. I remember playing tennis and do you remember John Newcombe? He was an Australian tennis player. And I remember getting a little tennis skirt and it had his logo on it, which was his, like, wink face and his big mustache. And I was like, man, here's a tennis player and he's making clothes. Like, I think that's so genius that he's able to do two things. And so that sort of was in the back of my mind. And I had this concept that I had a platform through Sports Illustrated. How could I use that platform into creating a business that didn't require me going to the studio every day? Like showing up as a model. How could I kind of find some sort of something? And at that time, I thought it might have been swimsuits that I could put my name on and have the swimsuits be the stars. So the sale of the swimsuits be my income rather than me just showing up at the studio. So making money while you sleep, really. And this New Zealand company had come to me and said, will you be the face of our brand? And I just said, why don't we do a licensing agreement where I'll help you design? Because I love lingerie. I was living in Paris at the time. I can't find anything that fits. I have a particular type of thing that I want to do for myself. And if it sells, great, we all make money. If it doesn't sell, we don't. You know, it's a wash. And so that was my first truly entrepreneurial, I think, decision.
- [12:08]
Rich Roll
And it's a better one than swimsuits because swimsuits are seasonal. Right. Lingerie is a perennial seller.
- [12:17]
Elle Macpherson
I don't know if it is.
- [12:18]
Rich Roll
It's pre Victoria's Secret.
- [12:20]
Elle Macpherson
Exactly. And skims, which is now, like, doing so well. Yeah. And swimsuits are really hard to make because they, like, you know, they have issues with salt. And, you know, it wasn't a good business model, that one.
- [12:32]
Rich Roll
It still feels like you should have done a swimwear line, though, because you were sort of so self identified with swimwear.
- [12:39]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. But I was looking also to enhance women's femininity and lingerie does that really? Well, it's sort of that inside beauty that has become a theme unwittingly throughout my career is this sort of inner beauty and the power of that. And so lingerie was really for the women, you know, under the clothes, how she felt under the clothes, how she felt about her, you know, making her feel the most beautiful that she can. And it was sort of an intimate thing. That's why I called it intimates. Ellen cursing.
- [13:13]
Rich Roll
And was that successful?
- [13:14]
Elle Macpherson
Very, yeah. It was a 25 year license. It was one of the longest licenses ever.
- [13:20]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [13:20]
Elle Macpherson
And it was such a joy to kind of grow with the business, you know, to start off with some design ideas and then it was marketing and then it was advertising and then it was working with the CEOs, all the different CEOs. So I grew so much through it, apart from the longevity of the license and the, you know, financial value of it. But my personal growth and those, those.
- [13:42]
Rich Roll
Experiences giving you confidence as a business person along the way. Right. Like the fact that you later on walked away from Ford Models and started your own agency so that you could control even further your career is like, I mean, has anybody done that? Like, that was a wild move.
- [14:01]
Elle Macpherson
It's funny that you say that now. I didn't at the time. I just sort of thought this agency situation isn't really, I think I'll just take a manager. And that's what I did. I just sort of took one person that was going to help make real realize the dreams that I had. And I couldn't do it alone. You know, corporation and collaboration is really where it's at in business and finding a team of people that have like minded vision and working with people is the way to go. And I just felt sort of isolated in the agency and they couldn't understand the licensing thing. Like they wanted a percentage of the license. And I was like, you can't take a percentage of that because, you know, this is something that I pulled together myself. And so it was just one thing led to the other. But it was a pretty courageous move at the time.
- [14:50]
Rich Roll
The way that your book is laid out, it's not like strictly a memoir. It's sort of like life lessons, you know, told through stories and anecdotes throughout your life. So on the entrepreneurial kind of side of things, like what are the biggest lessons that you've learned through your kind of journey with all of these businesses that you've created and overseen?
- [15:11]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, good question. I would think the biggest one is give it a go, you know, have the courage to step towards anything that moves your heart. If any kind of inkling that you have of something that you'd like to do, put it into action, take a step towards it. And when you do, magical things happen, doors are open. But that, you know, mindset of, let me explore this. Rather than going, oh, no, I don't know how to do it. So I think focusing on the why you're doing things as opposed to the how you're gonna get it done is the first step. And that's always been very valuable for me in business.
- [15:54]
Rich Roll
You're a curious person though. Cause on the one hand, you're somebody who has the audacity to like, you know, chase big dreams and like go for it and give it a go and all of that. But you're also very kind of open and frank about your insecurities and your fears and sensibilities around feeling out of place in this very fast paced world. In. You were kind of this bright shining star with all this attention on you and kind of what was happening inside your mind at all those times. So it's not a case of you just being like this super confident person who was fearless and just going for it?
- [16:29]
Elle Macpherson
Not at all. Confidence comes with experience and trusting yourself, so it compounds over time. And in the beginning, I was not confident. I was courageous, perhaps getting on a plane when I was 18 and coming to America when I was supposed to be going to law school, which was so, like, who does that? You know, law is so sort of stable and reliable and, you know, I was gonna marry the banker around the corner and I was gonna have two kids and a white picket fence. And I, I got on a plane and came to America because it just. Something moved me inside and I just thought, I just wanna try this. So I was courageous, but not particularly confident. Confidence came as I started trusting that inner voice. Listening to myself, listening to my heart's urges, and then taking those steps towards it and seeing the results. And then the results were, wow, I learned this. And I can apply that to the next situation. So it comes over time.
- [17:35]
Rich Roll
So let's dig into the backstory a little bit. You grow up in North Sydney, right?
- [17:41]
Elle Macpherson
I grew up actually in Kurnulla, Caringba, which was south. And then I moved.
- [17:46]
Rich Roll
Because your dad was. He was like president of the Cronulla Sharks.
- [17:50]
Elle Macpherson
He was. Oh, wow. You know that, that's a. Yeah, that's a good one.
- [17:53]
Rich Roll
Well, I have, I have friends who are from Cronulla. So did you actually live in Cronulla?
- [17:58]
Elle Macpherson
How can you have friends from Cronulla?
- [17:59]
Rich Roll
Because that's where all the triathletes come from.
- [18:01]
Elle Macpherson
Oh, there you go.
- [18:02]
Rich Roll
In fact, one of them has a last name. McPherson. You know Dan McPherson?
- [18:07]
Elle Macpherson
No, I don't.
- [18:08]
Rich Roll
Actor from that part of the world. He's a friend of mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:12]
Elle Macpherson
I probably should know him.
- [18:13]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Spelled the way. Spelled the same way as yours, I think. Oh, no, it's mc. I think he's mc.
- [18:18]
Elle Macpherson
My dad's name was Peter Gao, and he was an entrepreneur. And we grew up in Caringbah, which is south, until I was 10, and then I moved.
- [18:29]
Rich Roll
Then you moved north?
- [18:30]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, when my mother remarried.
- [18:32]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:33]
Elle Macpherson
And my mother's married, remarried, name is McPherson.
- [18:35]
Rich Roll
I think there's like, at least two, maybe three Ironman world champions who all came up in Cronulla with a local triathlon team. Chris McCormick, Greg Welch. Anyway, so I'm familiar with that. I'm familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:51]
Elle Macpherson
So we have a connection.
- [18:52]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So, I mean, but I love the Australian culture, the beach culture, you know, the kind of Bondi sensibility. And you really exuded that, like, that was the, you know, the Sports Illustrated campaign. Like, you were kind of representing that.
- [19:07]
Elle Macpherson
Culture, that sort of sporty, natural, kind of ballsy, strong Aussie thing, you know, which is no nonsense, and a good dose of sense of humor. I think that's really important. You know, sense of humor opens up the heart, and Aussies are very. They have that lightness about them.
- [19:28]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So you're in your first year of law school. Is that true?
- [19:34]
Elle Macpherson
I didn't actually go.
- [19:35]
Rich Roll
Oh, you were. That was the plan.
- [19:37]
Elle Macpherson
That was the plan.
- [19:38]
Rich Roll
So how does the modeling thing kind of enter your world?
- [19:42]
Elle Macpherson
So I was going through high school. I think on the last year of high school, I was modeling a little bit, right. For pocket money. But I really wanted to go to law school. My stepfather was a lawyer, and I had worked really hard, diligently academically, having not been particularly good at school, I sort of developed the skills that I needed in order to get into university because I wanted to be taken seriously, and I also wanted to follow my stepfather's steps in some way. I was always a good arguer. And then I had a phone call from Ford at the time and asked me to go into the ford face of the 80s competition. And when that phone call came in, I had such a sense of excitement, and I thought, oh, I'd love to do this. But my logical mind was like, that's not what smart girls choose to do. And so I said no. And as you read in the book, I had an immediate visceral physical reaction, which was I. And that was the first sense that I had that I'd really gone against myself and chosen to do something that wasn't particularly in my best interest. And I vowed to myself at that point I'd never do that again. And then fortunately, thank you, universe, I had another opportunity. Agency called and said, you know, a few months later, we'd love you to come to New York. And I said yes, and the rest is history.
- [21:15]
Rich Roll
So you go to New York. What are you, like 18 or something like that?
- [21:17]
Elle Macpherson
18, yeah.
- [21:19]
Rich Roll
Had never been outside of Australia?
- [21:21]
Elle Macpherson
No. Never taken a plane? Long distance plane.
- [21:23]
Rich Roll
And your family kind of came to Los Angeles, Right, and then you went to New York by yourself?
- [21:28]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, we went on a ski trip to Vail and Aspen for. It was one of those packaged ski deals. And then we went to la, we went to Disneyland and then they went home and I took the red eye into New York.
- [21:39]
Rich Roll
Right. And that's like 81, 82. Something like that.
- [21:43]
Elle Macpherson
Something like that, yeah.
- [21:44]
Rich Roll
And what happens when, you know, the starry eyed young Elle arrives in Manhattan?
- [21:51]
Elle Macpherson
She freaks out. Yeah. I was so scared when I first got to New York because, you know, I'd heard stories about New York and it was dangerous.
- [22:02]
Rich Roll
It was at that time.
- [22:03]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, it was. And it was a very different New York to the New York. You know, it was sort of dirty and a lot of. When I say dirty, it was sort of run down to some extent. And I went and I stayed with my agent there. She had like a little one bedroom apartment. I stayed with her and I hit the streets. I went on go sees and I got jobs or didn't get jobs and met people and just sort of did my best to make ends meet. I didn't have any money at the time and so I was sort of working to pay for and that's what I did.
- [22:38]
Rich Roll
And how long did that go on before the Sports Illustrated thing? So that was like four, five years?
- [22:44]
Elle Macpherson
No, two years. Because let's say I arrived in 81 or 82 I had that year. The following year I was asked to do Sports Illustrated, but it came out the following year. So I was friends with Paulina Porizkova at the time and she had already been on the COVID of Sports Illustrated.
- [23:02]
Rich Roll
Right. You guys were roommates.
- [23:03]
Elle Macpherson
We did. We roomed for a while and you know, she would walk down the street and people would stop her and she had this sort of aura. And she had this recognition that opened doors, and I wanted what she had. I wanted that ease and flow that she had. I didn't have it within me, but I wanted what Sports Illustrated had given her. To some extent.
- [23:30]
Rich Roll
There's something ineffable about that quality. Like, there's something that some people just have, you know, that you can aspire to have, but, you know, you can't, like, fake. Right. But that's very different from saying, okay, here's a goal that I have. Like, I want that gig. I want to be on the COVID of this magazine and kind of setting your intention upon that and, like, making it happen. Like, manifesting that.
- [23:55]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, we manifest it through our imagination and, you know, having a vision, a clear vision. And I wanted to do Sports Illustrated, and I also wanted the COVID but I didn't get it.
- [24:08]
Rich Roll
You did get it, though. You did get it. And that was a major. Obviously, a major inflection point in your life. Right?
- [24:14]
Elle Macpherson
It was.
- [24:15]
Rich Roll
You talk a little bit in the book about, like, your first sort of flirtation with fame in the wake of that, like, when people started to eat it, because that was like, we're of the same age. And if you're of our age or you're Gen X, like, you remember this time, like, it was a big deal. When the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue came out, it was, like, a sensational cultural moment, you know, that we don't really experience so much anymore. And it also happened to coincide with a very specific time in fashion in which the supermodel thing was very real. Like, these women were, like, iconic and just captured the fascination of people all over.
- [24:55]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, it was a very particular time that we don't have today. It's very different from today because the supermodel era, the more you were distanced.
- [25:04]
Rich Roll
From your public, there was mystery. Yeah, these beautiful women, and there was a lot of intrigue around, you know, who they were. But, like, you didn't know, and we.
- [25:13]
Elle Macpherson
Didn'T have social media capturing everything. And today, it's the more close you are to your community, the more successful you are. But back then, the more distanced you were, the more successful you were, the more iconic you were. Pedestal to some extent. And I think the models that have survived, like Giselle, who you've had on your podcast, but the girls that have survived have been able to ride that wave through adaptability to the new era of being more accessible, being more open, being more relatable.
- [25:46]
Rich Roll
It is very different now, but when I reflect upon that time, you think of you know, there's Christy Turlington and Tatiana Pattis. Sort of like, you know, women that kind of stood above Naomi Campbell, right?
- [25:58]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [25:59]
Rich Roll
And when I think of that kind of cadre of supermodel at the time, I think of sophistication and Manhattan. And these are the women who are at the cool clubs and like, they're right at the epicenter of where everything's happening. But when I think of you, I think of you differently. Cause you were sort of a more wholesome, you know, kind of hometown girl. Yeah. Like, you know, I know that the body is time. Magazines, you know, dubbed you and all of that. But it seems to me that you were on the outside of that, like, clique. Like what they were at the fancy parties. I don't know what you were doing.
- [26:38]
Elle Macpherson
But I was married.
- [26:40]
Rich Roll
You were like, yeah, I don't associate you with that kind of lifestyle.
- [26:45]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, I was. I did feel like an outsider. I wasn't that interested in fashion. I was interested in brand building, I guess, to some extent. But I wasn't on the COVID of Vogue. I don't think I've ever been on the COVID of American Vogue. Yeah, I was just doing other things. I don't. And I was sort of saved from a lot of that because I was married young and I was busy co creating with my then husband, Gilles Bentimon, who was a photographer at Elle magazine. And I would work with him on the magazine. You know, I was also the model, but I would sit on the floor and do the layouts for the magazine with he and Regina, who was the chief of Elle at the time. And I think I was just interested in other things. And I was protected somewhat because I had a secure relationship and I had a kind of day to day job and I was building my own things.
- [27:40]
Rich Roll
And Gilles, like, he was like the creative director of Elle.
- [27:43]
Elle Macpherson
Right, right, Elle.
- [27:44]
Rich Roll
And you had this. He was your partner, but also this collaborative relationship where you weren't just sort of being paid to be a model. Like, you were involved in the editorial process of how you were being portrayed and how the magazine was being laid out. So that's another kind of entrepreneurial aspect of your career that is uniquely in that world.
- [28:03]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, yeah. It wasn't like I was thinking, oh, this is entrepreneurial. It was just. That was the environment I was in and I was enjoying it. And they gave me the freedom, I mean, how incredible to have that education with two brilliant creators that took me under their wing and said, hey, what do you think about this? How should we do this. Like, they valued my opinion. So it wasn't sort of like, I had a vision. I'm just gonna be entrepreneur. I just found myself in situations that allowed me to explore whatever I was doing at the time to the best of my ability.
- [28:40]
Rich Roll
And you're all of, like, 24, 25 or something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I heard you say, like, you know, I don't really like fashion. You know, like, you're not like a Runway model.
- [28:50]
Elle Macpherson
No.
- [28:50]
Rich Roll
High fashion, sitting in the front row kind of person.
- [28:53]
Elle Macpherson
I've become that to some extent. Like, I have more reverence for fashion today, but I was interested in personal style, so. And that's what Elle maggot.
- [29:03]
Rich Roll
What's the difference between.
- [29:04]
Elle Macpherson
So the difference between fashion and personal style is. Elle would always say elle magazine, which I'm not named after and isn't my magazine, because a lot of people say to me, is Elle magazine your magazine?
- [29:18]
Rich Roll
So that you could be on the COVID every month.
- [29:20]
Elle Macpherson
Elle's philosophy was to share with women or to encourage women or to show how to dress, not what to wear. How to inject your personal style into what you have. How to mix and match. So it would be like a Chanel jacket and a pair of sneakers. And that was really what Elle was about. Whereas other magazines were really telling you what to wear. Okay, you wear this look by Gucci or this. So Elle was really about bringing the individual into the equation as opposed to the clothes wearing the person. It was the person wearing the clothes with Elle, and that was a philosophy that I've sort of retained all my life, is how to inject your personal loves into how you express yourself in whatever you do.
- [30:10]
Rich Roll
That's something that also is difficult to teach. Right. Like, that's more of an intuition thing.
- [30:16]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. You learn through experience as well. Yeah. And you bring your heart. And that is your heart is your intuition.
- [30:35]
Rich Roll
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- [34:04]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. And it was tangible, it was in your hands. You know, you had magazines and you could rip out a page and you'd stick it on your fridge and you know, that was like your inspiration. But today, you know, everything is on the phone and, and some transient. And fashion in itself is transient, but the mode of sharing it today is also transient because it's like, you know, it's an email or it's a flick on an Instagram post.
- [34:30]
Rich Roll
Right, right, right.
- [34:31]
Elle Macpherson
And so there was something sort of long lasting in that paper quality.
- [34:35]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Did you have any interesting encounters with Anna Wintour? She seems like quite a character.
- [34:43]
Elle Macpherson
I mean, and she's built an incredible business. You know, she's very driven and purposeful in what she does and she has really clear perspectives and visions on what she's trying to achieve. And she's done that very, very well.
- [34:57]
Rich Roll
You know, this sense of not being in the cool kids club and like this insecurity which I think is. I said the same thing to Giselle. Cause she was sharing like her insecurities and like just in terms of like the audience that's either watching or listening to this, like the idea that someone like you would feel that insecurity inside of yourself with all the success and the glamour and the like can be kind of an inaccessible, like you know, oh please, like cry me or whatever kind of thing. So talk a little bit about that.
- [35:29]
Elle Macpherson
I think the insecurity just comes from inexperience. So when you're an 18 year old girl trying to do a job that you've never done before and do it well no matter what you're doing or man. Cause I'm sure my children have the same sort of insecurities. Like even my son, he's like, but mom, if I go and work at a PE fund, I have no experience and I'm going to be like the dumbest one there. And you know, I don't want to look like I'm stupid. And I have a great education. So it's that inexperience that can feel like we are not good enough. And in fact, over time, as you practice more, whatever your chosen vocation is, you become better at it and you start to find your way around it. And I think in the beginning what happened was I was just trying to do a really, really good job doing something that I'd never done before and I was being paid very well to do it. Because there is a skill in modeling. You know, it's not just you show up and you look good, but you work with the team and you have to understand the light and you have to understand timing, and you have to. There's so much more. It's a collaborative effort, and you get better at it as time goes on.
- [36:37]
Rich Roll
You share the lessons that you learned around work ethic, like, early on in your career, and what comes across very clearly is, like, your dedication to, like, oh, this is my profession. If I want to excel, I have to show up, I have to do all these things, and I have to attack it. Like you would any kind of audacious goal that you have for yourself. And that's another, like, there are a lot of similarities in your kind of story and trajectory with Gisele, because that came across with her as well. Like, she was not letting any opportunity, you know, fall by the wayside. Like, she was coming from a foreign land, didn't know anyone, and was like, I'm gonna make this work. And the way I'm gonna make it work is I'm gonna outwork Everybody.
- [37:16]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, give 1,000%. And what Giselle has done is she's retained her heart in everything that she's done as well. You know, she did it her way. You know, she brought her uniqueness into whatever she was doing. And I think that that's super important in any business is to bring your uniqueness. So often we want to be like somebody else. I want to be like that guy over there or that girl over there. They did this, so I can do that. But really, the magic happens when you bring your vibrance into whatever you're doing and bring it 1,000%, you know, really commit to it.
- [37:53]
Rich Roll
How did you. I know you were married, but, like, how did you avoid kind of falling into this sort of fast paced, you know, after party lifestyle of the whole kind of.
- [38:05]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I didn't.
- [38:06]
Rich Roll
Well, we're gonna get into your sobriety story, but it's pretty tame.
- [38:12]
Elle Macpherson
It's a pretty tame the first 10 years. So, you know, in my 20s, I was married and I was just working. And so, you know, when other girls were going out to parties, I was going home to my husband and doing the layouts for Elle magazine or traveling to our next location. So I was saved a lot of that early exploration in my 20s. When I got divorced or separated in my 30s, that's where everything I started to explore a little more.
- [38:43]
Rich Roll
Were you still in New York at that time?
- [38:45]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, New York and la.
- [38:47]
Rich Roll
Yeah. What were the years that you lived in New York?
- [38:50]
Elle Macpherson
So I moved in 81, 82. I was between New York and Paris for those 10 years. And then I got my own apartment in New york in the 90s.
- [38:58]
Rich Roll
I was there from like 89 to 94.
- [39:02]
Elle Macpherson
So pretty groovy time to be there.
- [39:03]
Rich Roll
It was pretty good.
- [39:04]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, there was a lot happening. Wall street was.
- [39:07]
Rich Roll
Well, it was sort of the tail end of the dodgy, you know, kind of era.
- [39:11]
Elle Macpherson
That's such a Nazi word, dodgy. But it was.
- [39:13]
Rich Roll
Yeah, me, I'm spending too much time in Australia. But it was before, like everything became kind of whitewashed and over gentrified. Like soho was still cool and there were still kind of like vacant buildings and young people connected. I could live in lofts in soho, you know, for almost no money. Tribeca wasn't even a thing yet.
- [39:33]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, meatpacking district. I lived uptown. I had that. I'm going to live on Madison Avenue where all the girls lived downtown. But I was already sort of moved uptown, investing in art, getting great furniture, living a sort of more European life during that time. And I'd been successful in my career for those 10 years, so I had disposable income, I didn't have children. And I was really interested in myself, in exploring life as a grown up.
- [40:03]
Rich Roll
That's so responsible, you know. Cause I just found it wildly over tempting, you know, and just found myself in all kinds of compromise situations.
- [40:14]
Elle Macpherson
I probably did a fair dose of that too, though, to be fair.
- [40:17]
Rich Roll
Along the way, where were like the bars and the clubs that you were going to?
- [40:20]
Elle Macpherson
I would go. So in the 80s, I was going to sort of Palladium and the Roxy. And I think I went. Was at the tail end of Studio 54 maybe, maybe not.
- [40:30]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it was dwindling. Yeah, well, I mean, in the early 80s it was still kind of a thing.
- [40:35]
Elle Macpherson
Still there. But then Palladium came in pretty quickly. Cause it was the same guys that did it. So Lighthouse, the big dance clubs there were fun times because I would work during the day and then at night I would sleep for a few hours and then I'd get up and go out. And that was sort of. I was thinking, okay, well, I have eight hours sleep. I sleep sort of four hours before going out and three hours when I get back or whatever.
- [41:01]
Rich Roll
And this was, you know, this was the cocaine era.
- [41:05]
Elle Macpherson
It was silence.
- [41:08]
Rich Roll
Tell me more.
- [41:12]
Elle Macpherson
Listen, everybody. I think everybody was sort of, you know, experimenting and exploring. And we didn't know a lot about drugs then. I mean, you know, I remember people saying, oh, you can do cocaine because it's not addictive, right. And I was always paranoid of trying any drugs because I didn't like being out of control, and I didn't want to lose what I had worked so hard to gain in life. And I'd sort of heard stories about people that do cocaine and heroin and they just fall off the tracks and they lose their looks and they can't work anymore, and they're sitting in the corner scratching themselves. And so I just thought, I can't. I can't go there. But, you know, over time, I guess I checked things out for a while.
- [42:02]
Rich Roll
You got to. Why not, right? You got to give it a go.
- [42:06]
Elle Macpherson
Give it a go.
- [42:07]
Rich Roll
When I think of, like, that era and supermodels, et cetera, it was also the kind of. Of, you know, wavy, heroin chic kind of look that was very in at the time. And so there was a lot of pressure on the models to always be, like, ridiculously thin. And so they would just smoke cigarettes all day and not eat and, you know, have, you know, bulimia, et cetera. But you were kind of the healthy beach girl or something. Like, was there pressure on you to kind of fit that mold, or were you always like, okay, I'm this person and this is. This is my thing?
- [42:39]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I couldn't fit that mold because I'm six foot foot, four in heels, six foot, and I had these broad shoulders and I was athletic. And so, you know, it didn't matter how much I would want to. I wasn't that girl, you know, I just couldn't be that girl. And the moment that I sort of realized that my strengths were in this sort of Amazonian fitness and health and kind of vibrancy, then I leaned into that because that's where my work and that's where my creation stream was. And so even if I'd wanted to be all those things, I couldn't physically be it.
- [43:19]
Rich Roll
But you, you have all these experiences in New York and Paris and you're young and you're keeping it together, though. So, you know, your kind of sobriety journey is very different. Like, it doesn't really creep up onto you until much, much later. So, you know, maybe kind of walk us up to where it starts to become problematic.
- [43:37]
Elle Macpherson
It's hard to kind of discern exactly where. But I know that in the 90s, see, I don't even know. It's like, it's. So far, I'm 21 years sober. What's your.
- [43:53]
Rich Roll
I had a little lapse a while ago, so it hasn't been contiguous But I went to rehab in 98 and I had a little lapse about 10 years in.
- [44:04]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. So I went to rehab in 2003 after the birth of my second son.
- [44:09]
Rich Roll
Did you go to Sierra Tucson?
- [44:10]
Elle Macpherson
No, I went to the Meadows.
- [44:12]
Rich Roll
Oh, the Meadows.
- [44:13]
Elle Macpherson
I loved it.
- [44:13]
Rich Roll
The Meadows is great.
- [44:15]
Elle Macpherson
I chose the Meadows because it had a balance between physical, mental, emotional and spiritual healing. And that's what I was looking for. And so, you know, whilst I probably could have done another 10 years drinking because that was my drug of choice, emotionally and spiritually, I felt barren. And that's why I chose to go to rehab more than it was like, oh man, I'm drinking too much. It was like, I don't feel connected. I don't feel connected to myself. I don't feel connected to life. I don't feel connected to God or spirit or the universe. I don't feel connected to nature. And I really wanted to find out why. I felt disconnected, which is why I drank, because I felt disconnected. That's a very painful place to be in and how I could reconnect to myself, really. And so the Meadows offered me that opportunity because they focus so much on that balance of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well being.
- [45:20]
Rich Roll
Yeah, the Meadows, it's not a strictly substance addiction kind of treatment center. It's for all kinds of, you know.
- [45:28]
Elle Macpherson
Mental health, health issues, or, you know, an addiction can be addiction to emotions, you know, drama, pain, fear. It's not just substances.
- [45:38]
Rich Roll
When you think back to when it was starting to become problematic, like, what have you learned about yourself that led to that kind of escalation?
- [45:48]
Elle Macpherson
I go back to the disconnection. I feel that it was a coping mechanism. You know, it was like, okay, how do I numb the fear that I'm feeling? Because the fear is debilitating or the anxiety or the just not knowing. And alcohol did a really good job of that for a while, until it didn't. And I think I was trying to be something I wasn't. I was married by that time. Well, not married. I was with the father of my children. I had two young children. I'd moved to London. I was a corporate wife. I'd let go of a lot of the work that I had been doing where I was able to express myself in that area. And I just felt overwhelmed with the life that I was living. And I felt like I didn't know myself anymore. And drinking helped, and drinking helped with all the social things we had. We were building a big charity. He had a business. I had a, you know, High profile. So we were constantly social, and that was sort of my way of getting through it until I realized I was living a life that I didn't want to live anymore and I needed help. Help. And that's why I went to the Meadows.
- [46:58]
Rich Roll
If somebody doesn't know your story, they would probably presume that this problem originates in kind of the party lifestyle of being. Being a model at a very high level. But you were living like a, you know, kind of a high society. You know, I was, you know, philanthropy and like wealth and husband and all this sort of. And it's almost like, you know, a mommy's little helper situation more than it is. Like, oh, I was at Studio 54. Like, you were just sort of drinking at night after you put your K and like, maybe having a little bit too much, but not getting out in the car and driving or creating all kinds of chaos. Like, it was a very quiet, you know, struggle, little war that you were waging with yourself, which can be the.
- [47:38]
Elle Macpherson
Most detrimental at times.
- [47:40]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So I think, you know, when I think of your kind of drunk a log and your sobriety story, on the one hand, it's like, well, there's nothing really dramatic about this. It's like the most kind of like middle of the road situation ever. Like, yeah, I just had some vodka before I went to bed every night. And sometimes I wouldn't remember things like, like, what's the big fucking deal, right? It's millions of people. But I think that's what makes it actually, you know, really relatable and perhaps even more powerful. Because alcoholism, you know, is a self diagnosed disease, as you and I both know. And, you know, it takes what it takes to get sober. And we all have our different kind of pain thresholds. And I think there's probably a lot of people out there who are, you know, quietly struggling with an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. But it never gets so out of control. So it's easy to just kind of keep doing it. And your life either stays the same at best or it slowly degrades, but there isn't that moment of absolute chaos that shocks you into reality and snaps you out of your denial to go to Meadows or someplace like that or go to an AA meeting. And so I think the honesty and the vulnerability that you show in telling your story, you know, takes you as somebody who is kind of fundamentally like, you know, on a surface level, like, unrelatable to an average person, very relatable. Because I think that your story, you know, the facts of Our experience are different, but, you know, we can see ourselves in, you know, other people's journeys. And I think that that's a story that I think a lot of people can probably relate to.
- [49:15]
Elle Macpherson
And that was the purpose of writing this book. It wasn't to tell my life story. Like, okay, now I'm 60. It's a good time to write all the brilliant things I've. It was a moment of recognition, of realization back in 2020, you know, and it's so interesting. 2020, hindsight vision was that I'd had these experiences in life and that they were all there for a purpose, they were all meaningful, they were all valuable. And when I started to write, I was seeing that there was a thread through my stories that were common to everybody, you know, universal life lessons that I had been learning. And that's what I wanted to do, was to write, to share them. And there are so many people that, you know, reach out to me and say, I thought that there would be nothing in common with us. And it's like what we say in aa, you know, it's not the stories, it's the feelings that you have as you navigate your life. Circumstances that we connect. And people are connecting with the feelings, with the questions I would have or the solutions that I found. That's what they're connecting with, not necessarily the actual circumstances themselves.
- [50:28]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So what was the moment where you thought, like, all right, I can't do this anymore?
- [50:35]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I had. My son had just been born Psy in 2003. And my therapist had said to me at the time, elle, we're never gonna get to the depths of what we're trying to uncover here in your spiritual and emotional well being while you're drinking, because it just. It's like a handbrake to getting to that deeper essence of self. And she said, I think you should go to rehab. And I was like, I don't need to go to rehab. If anyone needs to go to rehab, they need to go to rehab. You know, it's not me. I'm not the problem. And she said, no, I really do think that you need for us to go deeper and you want a deeper spiritual connection in life. We can't do it as you are now. And I said to her, well, I'll just stop drinking. She said, oh, okay, just stop drinking. And I said, anyway, I'm going to Ibiza for three months and I just won't drink. And she said, oh, okay, well, let's see how that goes. So I would call her every Tuesday and Thursday, which were my days. And I would say, see, I'm not drinking. I'm not drinking. It's cool, I'm not drinking. And I did that for about six weeks. And then one day everybody went out and I had that feeling of I'm being left out. And I felt vulnerable, and I felt whatever I felt at that time. And then I realized the only thing that was going to take that away was a drink. And so it was that realization that I couldn't go the three months without drinking, without help, and I just left. The next day I smashed open a bottle of vodka, drank it, and then it was like, I'm out of here.
- [52:19]
Rich Roll
Yeah. You break the bottle of vodka, but you make sure that you get what you need out of it. Right. Even if there's shards of glass in there.
- [52:24]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. Which there was.
- [52:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So that's a good indication that maybe something's not totally okay.
- [52:30]
Elle Macpherson
But it wasn't so much the drinking of the vodka, it was that I couldn't not drink. It didn't matter what, you know, it didn't matter. The shards of glass are always, you know, it makes great click bait and things like that. People go, oh, she's really desperate because she drank it with the glass in there. It was more the realization that my therapist was right. I couldn't not drink for that period of time when triggered with an emotional response, you know.
- [52:57]
Rich Roll
So you're in the Meadows for like six weeks, right?
- [53:01]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, I actually stayed longer.
- [53:02]
Rich Roll
Oh, you did?
- [53:03]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. I asked to stay longer because Meadows for me was a safe ground.
- [53:07]
Rich Roll
I kind of loved it.
- [53:09]
Elle Macpherson
Art class.
- [53:12]
Rich Roll
I didn't have art class.
- [53:13]
Elle Macpherson
I did art class.
- [53:14]
Rich Roll
You're like, all we do is sit around and like, talk about our stuff.
- [53:19]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, and we did. I mean, the Meadows was great because it was very holistic. So we had acupuncture and we had, you know, group therapy, and we had, you know, one on one therapy and art class. And then. And so it was a safe space for me to just rest my parasympathetic nervous system and to dedicate some time with very skilled practitioners to go deeper into understanding myself. But I was 40. I mean, to be 40 and think I don't know myself at all. I thought I did. I knew what I was capable of. I knew what my skill sets were, but I didn't know me. And just before that, I had done Hoffman. Have you done Hoffman?
- [54:05]
Rich Roll
No, but it keeps coming up so good. Lots of people have sat in that chair and told me how transformative Hoffman was. In their life.
- [54:13]
Elle Macpherson
So I did Hoffman, then the Meadows, and then I think I went back and did, you know, more work at the Meadows.
- [54:21]
Rich Roll
So you were committed to your emotional mental health prior to getting sober? Usually it's the other way around. Like you gotta get sober first before you would even even entertain, like therapy or Hoffman or anything like that.
- [54:34]
Elle Macpherson
I'd understood that there was a connection between emotional, physical and spiritual well being and how that affected the body. So I knew that if I wanted to be physically well, I had to do some examination around emotional and spiritual body's well being.
- [54:51]
Rich Roll
When you say like you didn't know yourself, like, what does that mean? Like, know thyself is, you know, a question of infinite, infinite possibilities. It is the ultimate question, right?
- [55:00]
Elle Macpherson
It really is.
- [55:01]
Rich Roll
If you're like on this path, you devote your entire life to try to answering that and it's, you know, it gets more expansive at every, at every kind of level. But the dawning realization, like, oh, I don't really know myself, Even after Hoffman and then being at Meadows and trying to solve that puzzle for yourself, for somebody who's never really kind of entertained that or, or has never occurred to them to look inward and answer that question for themselves. How do you describe that?
- [55:30]
Elle Macpherson
It's such a big question, like, who am I? And I think for me it has been. My whole life has been really a journey from my head to my heart. And when I say know yourself, it is to have a connection, to have a relationship with your heart, not just your head. And that will express itself in a million different ways, you know, at every circumstance or situation that we approach. And it'll be different for me as it is for you. But it's to trust, you know, to trust your heart, to take time to get quiet many times in the day before doing anything major at least, and just feel what resonates with you. It's not like a definition of this is who I am. It's a beingness of a moment to moment practice of responding to life through your heart. And when you do that continually, you start to have a much clearer perspective on who you truly are or how you can be in every circumstance. If that makes sense.
- [56:41]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the modality of your practice? Meditation.
- [56:48]
Elle Macpherson
My day is like a walking meditation, but in the beginning it started quite strict, so I would have guided meditations. I have a spiritual mentor, his name is Paul, and I talk about him in the.
- [57:00]
Rich Roll
Paul Walsh. Yeah, I have questions about him and.
- [57:02]
Elle Macpherson
That, Yeah, I would love for you guys to meet by the phone or not. His Adams to Angels, Atoms to Angels was the book that changed my life, that I read from him. In the beginning, I would do guided meditations and then lots of different types, you know, for whatever I was chasing at that time. And then it moved into more still meditations, but still very structured. So, you know, time in the morning, time in the evening. And then I did the TM thing for a while, tried that.
- [57:38]
Rich Roll
You got the mantra.
- [57:39]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, I got my mantra. And today it's really just like, it is a walking meditation, which is that sense of always coming from a heart space, that quiet heart space. Even now, like when I'm really nervous talking with you, it's just to take a deep breath and just to be in my heart.
- [57:59]
Rich Roll
So Paul Darrell Walsh in this book, tell me all about this.
- [58:04]
Elle Macpherson
So he wrote a book called From Atoms to Angels. And I had just gotten sober, I think, and I was kind of navigating that, like, how do I be in my life as this sober woman living in a very unsober world, and how do I sort of bring that into my everyday life? I don't really know how to do it, but I'll go to AA and I'll just put one step in front of the other. But I was looking for a deepening understanding of a spiritual center in my life. And as you know, AA is a spiritual program, but I was looking for a deepening in that. So I go away to the Bahamas and I find this book on the shelf of this place that I'm in. And the woman that was running the house said to me, oh, I know those guys that wrote that book. And I said, I read the book and I said, I want to meet with them. And so in my kind of arrogance, I see, where are they? I'm going to find them. And they were living in India at the moment. And I said to them, I want to do a retreat. I want to do like a week's retreat. I've just gotten sober and I want to kind of solidify this in my life. And I'd never met them before, and I did a whole sort of week or 10 day retreat with them. And we did everything, you know, from talking about the meaning of ascension, which I didn't understand at the time and still is, is a very kind of nefarious subject for a lot of people. And the concept that life happens through you for you, not to you. So moving out of victim consciousness, moving into your own empowerment and that we are the ultimate creators. I mean, these were all Things that I had never heard of or that we are just an energy source. And how do we direct that energy source? We are all capable, all powerful. And so they were very new concepts for me, because for me, spirituality was about God and religion. And, you know, they came and we worked together, and we looked at a lot of different areas from, you know, astrology to numerology to, you know, working with crystals to Reiki. And it was fun and inspiring and enlightening and empowering and eye opening. And it was the beginning of my kind of journey into realizing that we're not just. Just sort of victims of our lives, just having to deal with whatever came up for us.
- [60:35]
Rich Roll
And what was it specifically in this book, like Adams to Angels that, like, leapt off the page or spoke to you? Because there's lots of books in this sort of genre, right?
- [60:45]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [60:45]
Rich Roll
But you make a very conscious effort or point to, like, highlight. Like, this book is being transformational for you.
- [60:53]
Elle Macpherson
As I said, I think it was that concept of life happens through you for you, and that we are energetic beings. And I don't know if there was one specific thing that was said. It was a feeling I had when I read the book. It was just that I need to know more. I want more of what I'm feeling when I read this book. I want to understand. I want to. I want that inspiration in my life and that strength of being and lack of fear.
- [61:29]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Not as a replacement to aa, but as a conjunction. Yeah. A supplement. I think there's this sort of notion in Alcoholics Anonymous or within the sobriety community, like, oh, you're an A. This is what we do. Like, things that are outside of that are kind of a distraction from the step work and.
- [61:51]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [61:52]
Rich Roll
Service, et cetera. And my experience has been quite different. Like, I love aa. It saved my life. It continues to save my life. I'm very devoted to that community, and I think it's profound. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't continue to explore spiritual growth in other areas.
- [62:12]
Elle Macpherson
That if it moves you. Yeah, if it moves you. Sometimes it's just keeping it as simple as possible. With the steps in AA is where people find their groove. I still go to aa, and I still believe that it's one of the best programs for anybody, even if you're not struggling with, you know, alcoholism, but you might be struggling with other things in your life. I think it's such a brilliant roadmap for life.
- [62:36]
Rich Roll
You don't have to be suffering from an addiction to benefit from, like, going through the steps.
- [62:40]
Elle Macpherson
Absolutely. Or even, you know, Al Anon or any of the other affiliated programs.
- [62:57]
Rich Roll
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- [63:49]
Elle Macpherson
So it's a new year, a new you, and everybody needs inspiration in the kitchen. The Plant Power Meal Planner is absolutely extraordinary in supporting you in achieving your health and fitness goals.
- [64:02]
Rich Roll
So to learn more and sign up, go to meals.richroll.com and use code POWER20 for $20 off your annual membership. I'm super proud to announce my next venture, Voicing Change Media. This beautiful consortium of thinkers, storytellers, artists and visionaries all committed to fostering meaningful exchanges and sharing thought provoking content. Voicing Change Media will feature shows like Soul Boom with Rainn Wilson, Mentor Buffet with Alexi Pappas. Feel better, live more with Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and the Proof of Simon Hill. You can explore this network and all its offerings at VoicingChange Media. As somebody who's lived all over the world and travels constantly, where have you found like the best AA community?
- [64:59]
Elle Macpherson
Oh, that's a goodie, Oz. You know, like there's a meeting on Bondi beach which is really cool and sort of authentic and simple.
- [65:12]
Rich Roll
The one in the. What is it called?
- [65:14]
Elle Macpherson
Pavilion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that one. But you know, there are great meetings everywhere and I think it depends on where you're at. It's not the meeting itself, it's where you're at. I remember when I was first, like three months sober, I was in Yorkshire in England, big drinking, shooting party with the father of my children. You know, typical English, sort of, you know, wake up, have a bullshot at 11 o'clock. Then there's 11 seasons and tweed and hounds and cold weather Land Rovers and having to keep warm. And I remember driving for about an Hour and a half to go to a meeting at 7 o'clock at night when I was supposed to be at dinner with everybody. And I got there and it was the most down and out meeting and it saved my life. It was just so rich and raw and needed and, you know, the fact that I'd made the effort to do gave me confidence with myself, with my own resolve and discipline. You know, making the effort to go was as much as the meeting itself. So it's not really about the meeting per se, it's about the willingness to check it out wherever you are.
- [66:24]
Rich Roll
Do you know John Pearson?
- [66:26]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, that brings me.
- [66:27]
Rich Roll
Because he's from Yorkshire. Like when you said Yorkshire reminded me.
- [66:29]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, that was.
- [66:29]
Rich Roll
I mean, he lives here now. He was sort of the male supermodel.
- [66:34]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, somebody spoke to me about him just recently.
- [66:36]
Rich Roll
He's the best. He's such a great guy. He's been on the podcast. You would know him from the George Michael video with all the models. Right, the faith video.
- [66:46]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. That was such a great video, wasn't it? I wish I did that.
- [66:50]
Rich Roll
Anyway, you talk about like doing your first four step inventory. Can you share a little bit about that?
- [66:59]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I had this feeling that if I didn't do it perfectly, I was not going to say sober, you know, because there's always this. You have to do the four step and the fifth step and if you don't do that. And so I didn't even know where to begin. And I was one of those kids at school that would start a new, you know, notebook in class for the new year. And if my writing wasn't perfect, I'd rip out the page and do it again because I wanted it to be perfect. And that was the same for my fourth step. I wanted it to be perfectly laid out, every single thing I could think of. And I worked on it for months and months and months trying to get this sort of spreadsheet. It was very cathartic at the very least, but of course it wasn't necessary. And that's a powerful step, you know, it's a hard one.
- [67:51]
Rich Roll
That's the step where everyone sort of gets hung up. And for people that don't know, the fourth step in the 12 steps is where you kind of take inventory of your past behaviors and it's recommended that it's something you do fearlessly and thoroughly.
- [68:07]
Elle Macpherson
Yes.
- [68:07]
Rich Roll
You basically tabulate all of your resentments and your fears and you have to do a separate sexual inventory where you were, you know, kind of misbehaving sexually. Like it's sort of a gut wrenching thing. You have to go back into your past and like revisit, you know, all these things.
- [68:21]
Elle Macpherson
We don't even.
- [68:21]
Rich Roll
Experiences that. Yeah. Either you can't remember. Yeah, I just remember when I did my first, I was like, I couldn't think of anyone that I didn't resent. So I literally listed out every single person I'd ever met my whole life.
- [68:33]
Elle Macpherson
That's a very common thing in. Especially when you're newly. So because, you know, again, it's this thought of, I'm a victim of my life. And so it wasn't really my fault, it was their fault. And if they didn't do that to me, then I wouldn't be, you know, so it's trying to discern what's truly going on, you know, where are the character traits that we want to heal, that we want to rebalance without taking the blame for everything, but just to have a stock and understanding of it.
- [69:05]
Rich Roll
Yeah. The point of it isn't simply to have this cathartic experience where you put it all on paper, but to identify your part in all of these emotional experiences. And then when you have it all out, you can see these patterns emerge, like, oh, every time this happens, this is how I behave, etc. So when you did that for the first time, what were the revelations around the character defects that were contributing to your.
- [69:31]
Elle Macpherson
Oh, you're testing my memory. Well, what are the main. There's seven deadly sins, really that we look through. But mine I think was probably fear. Okay. So reacting out of fear and so assuming the worst and responding to the worst of whatever the situation was. I think that was my main thing.
- [69:54]
Rich Roll
Was fear catastrophizing.
- [69:56]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah. Yeah. And that's an adult child of an alcoholic type of symptom. You know, you have to look around corners as a child who is living in a sort of chaotic life. And if I can anticipate the worst thing that can happen, then I'll be able to map out what I can do to mitigate it or to control it or to deal with it. And it was a survival mechanism as a child. And then often we take that on as an adult and we continue to catastrophize or continue to think of the worst case scenario, to test to see if we can deal with it. And then we create new neuron pathways and we start to live that way and we manifest what we imagine.
- [70:37]
Rich Roll
It's rather astonishing the extent to which our perception of our own consciousness dictates life outcomes and I think, and I'm speaking, speaking for myself, like the vast majority of people, we spend the vast majority of our time thinking about something that happened in the past and fantasizing about something that hasn't happened yet. And we're very rarely actually in the present. The only thing that actually exists, which is the present moment, and it doesn't matter how many times I say that or remind myself of that, it remains such a difficult thing to continue to anchor yourself in the present and to understand like all of those mental strategies were designed to protect us and keep us alive. And yet, for the most part, kind of don't serve us in an optimal way.
- [71:33]
Elle Macpherson
Absolutely. How we are in the present dictates the future. So it's to be putting your energy into what you love, to what really resonates with you in the here and now. You know, life flows where your energy goes. And so if we're constantly in this moment of appreciation, of gratitude, of wonder, of curiosity, of beingness in this moment, that is the life that we will have, which is very fulfilling and enjoyable.
- [72:03]
Rich Roll
I think there's something specific about America that creates an even greater degree of difficulty with what you just shared. Because there's such an emphasis in this culture around, like, individual liberty and it's like Manifest Destiny and the American Dream, and it's up to me, and I'm gonna make it happen. And so the focus is really on the individual, on the self, which, you know, kind of overemphasizes or overly celebrates. Like the ego.
- [72:36]
Elle Macpherson
Yes.
- [72:37]
Rich Roll
And so it's very difficult, maybe more difficult here than in other cultures to kind of disabuse yourself of that idea of the self, which is, you know, basically an illusion. If you believe in non dualism, as I do, but to kind of really own or understand that all these ideas that you have about who you are are pure illusion is a very difficult leap.
- [73:01]
Elle Macpherson
It's a tough one to communicate, to teach and to embody. And that is really my journey. That's the book's journey. And life is that journey of recognizing the value of connection to all things and not the individuality of me, myself, I as being the only facilitator of the future or of my life. It's not just me, you know, it's a co creation, a co laboration, a co creation between life experiences, the people that you have around nature, energy source. And that's a hard one for people to kind of understand in their heads. They have to live it, and they live it through experience.
- [73:44]
Rich Roll
What are some of the Other guides or books or individuals who have kind of helped shape your spiritual perspective and growth.
- [73:54]
Elle Macpherson
The biggest shaping of my spiritual perspective has been my own experience. And I don't mean it in a self centered way like I'm my own spiritual guru in any way. But I have learned more through my life experiences than reading other people's life experiences or philosophers visions on things. Because we've both been around people that can talk the talk but can't walk the walk themselves, live it themselves. I remember reading Ram Dass's Behavior now and that sounded great and it sounded like what I wanted but I didn't know how to live that at that moment. I didn't truly know what it meant. Osho, you know, it was like it resonated with me, it touched my heart. It was like, yeah, but living that spiritual way of being or philosophy is a completely different thing from just reading it and thinking that sounds nice. In even Paul's book, it is so much more meaningful. I'm living that more today than when I first read it, when it really changed my world. And so life is experiential. You know, it is the experience that we have in the moments that we have and not the philosophies that we try to adopt.
- [75:09]
Rich Roll
There is something about being our age where you do become more self reflective and kind of open to these ideas and you've accumulated enough life experience where suddenly they have a resonance. Like if I read Be Here now, now today, I'm going to have a very different experience with that book than I would have when I first read it when I was like 31 or whatever, you know what I mean? Because you've accumulated enough life where it just has a grit to it that doesn't when you haven't had that many experiences. So when you speak to younger people or you're trying to kind of, you have two sons, how do you spare them some of the pain that you've experienced or, or how do you connect those lessons to somebody who hasn't kind of lived as much life as you have to help them kind of see it more clearly sooner?
- [76:01]
Elle Macpherson
That's a beautiful question.
- [76:02]
Rich Roll
I think you have to live your life. I think everybody has to have their experiences and earn that kind of perspective.
- [76:10]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, I think our kids learn through observation. So they watch. You can say all you want, but really they will watch how you are in your life. In my case, with my kids, it's an ongoing thing where I don't give them books to read except mine.
- [76:29]
Rich Roll
Have they read your book of Course they have.
- [76:31]
Elle Macpherson
They have read my book and were moved by it, but not by the stories that I tell about my life or not only by the stories I tell about my life that they may not have known, but because. Because I have so carefully curated and consciously chosen the language, the words, they were able to read it and join the dots of things that I've been saying in conversation. But when it's on a page like that, they can actually join the dots. Oh, that's what she means when she said this and this and this or that's why she does things this way. I understand now. So I think for them it was a greater insight into me, but more importantly a greater insight into themselves. And that was my purpose of the book, is that when people read it, they have a greater insight or a greater understanding or a greater acknowledgement of them. Not so much me. And with the boys, I take the time to point out when I see them. So for example with Sy, he's very. My youngest, he's extremely intelligent, academically brilliant in many ways, and he relies heavily on his academia. He's also very intuitive. And in a world where having an intuition is kind of seen as not that valuable, you know, especially in a young man, you know, you're bright, you're this, you're a go getter. He's incredibly intuitive. And I talked to him about the battle that he has between his logical mind, his common sense and his inner sense and that they're both valuable and to trust his inner sense because that will guide him in his decision making. And his brain, his brilliant brain, will help him execute what his heart desires. And so when those opportunities come up, I talk to them about that. But it's not like I hand them, you know, a book and say, read this, I think it'll be really helpful.
- [78:30]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's a dilemma. If you're a bright young intellectual mind, you will be rewarded and validated for that. And the more that that happens, the more the heart, mind gets muted. Right. And deprioritize. I mean, I've experienced this and I'm in a process of trying to, you know, reconnect with my intuition and my heart's song.
- [78:55]
Elle Macpherson
Because we all have it.
- [78:56]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And you know, it's sort of a masculine thing too. I think it's like, you know, it's a feminine, feminine energy, but it has its own wisdom. And that wisdom is valuable. And you know, I would fully admit that I've. I've been quick to like, kind of repress it or keep it at bay to my own peril.
- [79:14]
Elle Macpherson
Because ultimately what we're here to do is to embody the both divine masculine and divine feminine, which is heart and head, not just one or the other. And traditionally speaking, it was always like the masculine energy was all about the head and the feminine energy was all about the heart. But today I think we are combining both the masculine and the feminine in the individual. And that is a big thing in relationships. You know, before we, or there has been times where we looked for a relationship where there was a you complete me type of scenario, the yin yang, you know, I'm this and you're that and together we make this. But today I think we're really looking at balancing that masculine and feminine within each of us individually, women and men, and teaching young men, because I have two boys, the value of that is where I see myself as their wise guide. But it can't be heavy handed and you can't preach and they don't listen to me half the time anyway. So it's a nice.
- [80:20]
Rich Roll
But you've been in a few relationships, right?
- [80:23]
Elle Macpherson
I have long term relationships. I've had a series of very long.
- [80:27]
Rich Roll
You know, you've had an interesting, you know, journey with, you know, partnerships over the years and you seem to have a really beautiful, healthy one now with Doyle. But what have you learned through all of those experiences about like relationships that you think is worthy of sharing?
- [80:44]
Elle Macpherson
Don't fall in love with someone's potential. I was really good at that. I was like, I can see it.
- [80:54]
Rich Roll
Are you a fixer?
- [80:56]
Elle Macpherson
A box ticker?
- [80:57]
Rich Roll
Box ticker? What does that mean?
- [80:59]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I think I would look at a relationship and I have done this and going, well, it looks good on paper. It's like, okay, kids the same age tick, you know, loves his children, tick. Successful in business, tick, the end. You know, it's sort of those kind of ideas that we have about who we think could be great for us in a relationship. And they're all the doing things, they're not necessarily the being things, you know, so it looks great and then it doesn't. There's no resonance. And so I think sometimes we go through attraction, you know, it's really about connection more than attraction. And I was looking at, you know, what was attractive. And I don't mean just physically, I mean from, from the exterior, what was I attracted to instead of where was my true connection. And that's what I have in my relationship today, which is attraction and connection. But the entry point into the relationship was connection, heart connection, spirit connection. Soul connection and resonance frequency, the frequency that we both function in in our daily life. You know, you attract the frequency of who you are and. And I think it's often about, you know, be the love you want to receive, you know, be that energy and you will receive it.
- [82:14]
Rich Roll
Right. It's not about, like, chasing what you want. It's about becoming the person who would attract that person. You have to be the person that that person would want to be with.
- [82:25]
Elle Macpherson
Yes, exactly.
- [82:26]
Rich Roll
That's really the ultimate kind of Jedi move.
- [82:29]
Elle Macpherson
And we were talking about this the other day is that, you know, we always say we. You know, I fell in love with this person, and in fact, I think we rise in love because love is such a high frequency, you know, experience. But I feel that we rise in love with the person that we are when we are with that person. So you rise in love with yourself, and they're the witness of it in the purest sense.
- [82:56]
Rich Roll
But all relationships begin with both parties, you know, projecting an idealized version of that person onto them. Like they're not actually seeing you, they're seeing kind of like what they want to see.
- [83:09]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, but if I love somebody and I'm with somebody, and I'm thinking, for example, with Doyle, it wasn't so much I was attracted and connected to him, but I loved who I was when I was with him. Oh, I still love who I am when I'm with him. I'm my best version of myself when I'm in this relationship. And so it's like falling in love with yourself in many ways.
- [83:35]
Rich Roll
Do you have a relationship with regret? What does regret look like to you? I mean, in aa, it's sort of like we will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it.
- [83:44]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [83:44]
Rich Roll
But regret has a way of lingering. And, you know, we've all done things that we wish we hadn't.
- [83:51]
Elle Macpherson
Regret is a sort of futile emotion to some extent, because there is nothing really, truly that I regret as long as I've learned from it. And I have learned. And sometimes I had to go through the cycle again, but I've learned through my experiences. And so they were valuable, they were purposeful, they were meaningful, they were worthwhile. Even if they were uncomfortable, even if they were hard, even if they were messy, even if they were painful, they were worthwhile. And I can say that about every relationship. I've had long relationships, relationships, 10 year relationships with people. And I don't regret any of them. And that's why I'm able to write with such grace about them in the book. Because I can see the value of those experiences with those people, and they all brought beautiful gifts with them. Not without a good dose of pain, though.
- [84:45]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [84:47]
Elle Macpherson
And I come to.
- [84:48]
Rich Roll
Healing is happening for you and through you. Right. For your growth and evolution. For your growth and evolution of your own behavior. Because, you know, it takes two to contribute to whatever pain moment you're experiencing in a relationship.
- [85:02]
Elle Macpherson
Suffering is optional, though. You don't have to hang onto it.
- [85:05]
Rich Roll
I know, but we live in the world. Not. We're not meditating in caves. You know what I mean? It's true, as they say in a. If you really want to know your character defects, like, get into a relationship, right. Like, it's easy when you're on your own and you think everything's.
- [85:18]
Elle Macpherson
That's why I love relationships, is because you, you know, you learn so much through the relationship. It's very hard to do it by yourself. You don't have any mirror of where your triggers are, where there, you know, those nuggets of density that needs healing. You only really see it when you exchange with somebody else.
- [85:37]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Can we talk about the breast cancer stuff?
- [85:41]
Elle Macpherson
Sure can.
- [85:42]
Rich Roll
So you're taking it on the chin with this book, right? Like you've been doing prep. You tell this whole story around breast cancer and the choices that you made around your own kind of healing process. And I'm sure you knew when you wrote it in the book that when the book came out, you were gonna have to kind of answer for that, right? Like, people have sort of come after you for these choices that you've made, and you're, you know, kind of this exercise of your own sovereignty that was.
- [86:14]
Elle Macpherson
Surprising, to tell you the truth. I mean, I wrote. I talked about it in the book. There's a very specific reason that I. First of all, it's an authentic book. So, like, you know, to cut that part out would not be true. I mean, you know, authentic to me, because it was such a huge turning point in my life. I didn't anticipate that there would be so much, much blowback on the choice I made. Because the chapter is really not about the choice I made. The chapter is about how to make a decision when you're gripped with fear or when you're faced with a life and death situation. Like, how do you figure out what to do when you have no idea of the outcome of your decision either way? So I didn't expect as much blowback, thank goodness, because I think if I'd anticipated it, I might have written it. Very differently. I wrote it from the heart and carefully in the sense that it is not a protocol of how to address illness in a natural way. That's not what this is.
- [87:20]
Rich Roll
You're sharing your experience.
- [87:22]
Elle Macpherson
I'm sharing my experience. And I'm not an approach the challenge.
- [87:24]
Rich Roll
Of making that choice that you made, but maybe explain to people who don't know what we're talking about.
- [87:29]
Elle Macpherson
Okay, so. So in 2017, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It came as a huge shock because, like you, you know, healthy lifestyle, 10 years sober, into wellness. I've started my own wellness business with Wellco. A few years earlier, after I'd seen how important nutrition is, it was a crossroad in my own wellness journey that birthed Wellco. And so I have this, which is.
- [87:57]
Rich Roll
Like an amazing name by the. Just add a W to your name.
- [88:01]
Elle Macpherson
It seemed appropriate.
- [88:02]
Rich Roll
Yeah, no, it's like. It's perfect.
- [88:05]
Elle Macpherson
Anyway, keep going. Thank you. So I was diagnosed, and I just couldn't believe it. I was like, me, of all people, and what do I do with this information and how do I address it? And so I went on a journey of research, and I just researched and researched and researched, and I went to. To see all the best doctors. I spoke to people in Paris, in Israel, in Australia, and, you know, everywhere that specialized in oncology. And I asked them what I should do. And everybody, most of them had very different responses as to what to do. Okay, you should do radiation, you should do chemotherapy, you should do a mastectomy, double mastectomy. You don't need to do a mastectomy. You can just do radiation. And, you know, at the end of it, I was just lost. I didn't. I had no idea of truly what to do. And so I had seen some integrative medicine doctors who said, you can do partly this, you can do partly that. And there was no guarantees. You know, no matter what everybody suggested either way, whether it was to take a completely natural route, an integrative approach, or a completely pharmaceutical approach, nobody had a guarantee that this is going to heal 100% and you're going to come out of this five. And so I just went into deep meditation, gathered all the information, and then decided that the clearest path for me, for the diagnosis that I had for my specific case, was to approach it from the least invasive point of view for a period of time and see if that will. And I was really fortunate because I did that, and it did work. And so I continued with that process because I was seeing the results that I Wanted, which was absolute wellness.
- [90:00]
Rich Roll
And it was a rigorous process. And it wasn't overnight, it was pretty prolonged. Right. What exactly were you doing?
- [90:10]
Elle Macpherson
It was such an intricate protocol, Rich. I mean, it wasn't like. So a lot of people think if you take a natural approach to healing anything, any disease dis ease in the sense of it's an imbalance in your body that you just sort of like drink green juice and pray for the best. And I remember going and seeing the doctor that I had chosen to walk this journey with, and he gave me the list of protocols and I just burst into tears. I said, I can never do this. It's too much like, how am I going to do all this and how am I going to do it alone? Because I'm not going to eclipse and you know, somebody just you walk along the production line and now you're going to do this and now you're going to do that. I had to find the doctors. I had to be my own master of ceremonies in many way with all the tools that I had. And I remember him saying to me, because I felt like if I didn't do this 120%, I was going to die and everyone was going to make fun of me because I didn't do the more traditional. And I say traditional, say pharmaceutical route. And he said to me, he said, listen, did I ask you to do it 100%? I said, but I have to do it 100% because I'm going to die if I don't. And he said, just give it your best shot. You give it your best shot. And of course, I, given the personality that I have, I just worked at it day in day out for many, many months. And then that went on to many years. So. And it was intricate. I mean, we don't have enough time on this podcast to talk about all the different things I did. But it was a combination of emotional, spiritual, physical and mental exercises and approaches, put it that way. A lot of detox, a lot of nutrition, you know, fasting, juicing. I mean, the list went on and on and on.
- [92:02]
Rich Roll
Right. Basically a full time job, though.
- [92:04]
Elle Macpherson
It was.
- [92:04]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And so the diagnosis is in 2017 and how long before you were in remission?
- [92:12]
Elle Macpherson
I don't like to say remission so much because remission sort of implies that there's dormant cancer waiting to come out. And for me it was like eight months in. I had completely clear markers actually before that, but I continued on that protocol for two years just to more than that. Three years, day in day.
- [92:33]
Rich Roll
And you continue to test and make sure.
- [92:35]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I was testing more than most people because I didn't have that security of. Of just. We'll wipe it out and you'll be fine. I was testing every three months.
- [92:43]
Rich Roll
So you go in for a lumpectomy to remove a growth, and that's when you get the diagnosis. Right. And the diagnosis that you get is for a very specific form of breast cancer called HER2. Positive estrogen receptive breast cancer.
- [93:00]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [93:01]
Rich Roll
Is that right?
- [93:01]
Elle Macpherson
Yes.
- [93:02]
Rich Roll
And, you know, I took a look at some of the article. Like, you know, it's. Let's listen. It's not surprising that you were taken aback by, you know, kind of the response to this aspect of your story, but it's also kind of predictable. It's like the press needs a salacious story. This is like, the hottest take, right. So they're gonna go for this. And I watched the 60 Minutes Australia.
- [93:23]
Elle Macpherson
Piece of it, and that was pretty.
- [93:24]
Rich Roll
Grueling, but they have to do their job. I thought that she handled it responsibly, but also with some grace. I mean, she was not without her compassion. I was expecting her to really go after you.
- [93:36]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [93:36]
Rich Roll
And I felt like it was balanced in the way that it needed to be for it to be 60 minutes, I guess I would say.
- [93:42]
Elle Macpherson
And I knew that when I was going into it.
- [93:45]
Rich Roll
But there is this set, like, of course. So, like, all these. You know, I'm not a medical doctor hardly.
- [93:49]
Elle Macpherson
You know, nor am I, by the way. I'm an oncologist.
- [93:51]
Rich Roll
Right. So it's like, I have no expertise in this. But I know that, you know, because there's been so much press around this, oncologists have weighed in, and those opinions vary, but they tend to kind of align with, like, she should have done this. I think there's a feature that because of who you are and kind of your platform that you command, et cetera, that this will set in motion, like a domino effect, as if you were kind of recommending that people opt out of a traditional protocol and do it your way, when I know that your intention was like, I'm trying to explain to you how I make decisions in my own life. And I'm not telling you what to do or not to do. But not all breast cancers are the same.
- [94:30]
Elle Macpherson
Right?
- [94:31]
Rich Roll
True. Is that.
- [94:33]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I mean, herein lies the dilemma if. And I'm not an authority on cancer, so I'm an authority on my experience, and I share with you my experience. So, you know, weighing in on sort of what doctors think is Specific for this specific type of cancer or how your body responds to it isn't really my skill set. What I do know is that if that is the case, if it's non invasive and if it is not dangerous, then perhaps the best way of dealing with it isn't wiping out your immune system with chemotherapy. And if it is, and there is a combination of ways to manage it, then that's also an option for me. I did two lumpectomies, so I went down that route. And then I just felt that the rest of the process I would give it a go, my Aussie thing. But I think everybody's bodies respond to any kind of cancer is, you know, there's no fixed. There's no fixed way of dealing with cancer. You know, in my case, there didn't seem to be a invasive solution. That felt right.
- [95:54]
Rich Roll
For me, the traditional fear or kind of reaction to this is, well, by doing that, are you not putting yourself in a position where the likelihood, like you said you didn't like the word remission, but the likelihood of it returning is perhaps increased because you didn't go that traditional route? Route?
- [96:18]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I, I guess I'm living proof to some extent because it's been seven years or eight years now. And for me, that is the affirmation that the choice I made for me, for my body was the one that was right for me at this moment. Now if something, you know, if. If my body chemistry changes and things change, I'll make a decision based on that. But making a preemptive decision on the future, perhaps, maybe, if, whatever. Now it doesn't seem to make sense to me.
- [96:51]
Rich Roll
Yeah. To me, this really isn't about, like the choice you made around your own healing.
- [96:59]
Elle Macpherson
Right.
- [96:59]
Rich Roll
The more interesting aspect of this to me is kind of a meta question, which is the tension between, as we were talking about earlier, like the mind and the heart, right. And when do you trust your intuition? And as somebody who, who was gonna go to law school and prided herself on her intellectual capabilities and has had to learn over time how to trust her heart and has been on this journey of know thyself, right? Like there's this yin and yang. Like, how do you balance these two when they are at loggerheads with each other, right? Because obviously it's sort of like God delivers you this test case to like, see where you're at, you know, and it's like you don't want. Want to venture down the rabbit hole of pseudoscience and misinformation, which I definitely didn't do, especially when your life is on the line. Right. And yet, as somebody who is committed to their spiritual journey, it is important to weigh, like, the valence of, like, your trust in things that you can't control and your level of kind of surrender to that. Right? Like, this is a war we're all waging on some level, right? Like, you're doing it on a kind of conscious level and you're telling the story. And I believe that your motivation and int. Tension for sharing the breast cancer story is a way of, like, elucidating this theme, right? This tension that we all have within ourselves about, like, what's in our best interest, how do we make these decisions? How do I trust my heart when my head is telling me something different? Or how do I exempt myself from the pressures of, like, external validation? Well, all these experts are saying I should do this, and I want them to think that I'm a good patient or a good student. But my heart is telling me this. Or maybe my heart is telling me I should trust these doctors. Or how do I weigh all of that? Like, I'm confused. How do I make sense of this? And how do I figure out what's right for me and make that decision not from a place of being reactive, but being informed and, like, understanding the risks and kind of weighing that tension between, like, you know, trust in self and trust in experts and all the like. And I think this is all heightened because the very issue that you're getting at is sort of a culture war issue, right? Like, don't trust experts, trust you. You know, like, we need exper. You know, like, this is, like, the discourse that's happening on, like, the whole meta level with respect to everything, and all of it is distilled down into this one story that you tell, which I think makes it dynamite. And why, you know, that's part of why I think the press is fixated on it.
- [99:34]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah, you've articulated that so beautifully in. And that was my experience. And it's really that situation of when the outside world becomes so noisy that it's really difficult to wade through what is the right course of action in any given moment. Because we get so distracted and driven by fear, you know, so that's a great sort of like fire when, you know, when you're in fear. It's very difficult to make a decision when you're in fear. And if you've got a lot of people telling you you're going to die, there's no greater fear than that. This was not a flippant decision. It wasn't like, oh, I'm just gonna make an ideological decision that this is what feels right for me, you know, and I'm really into health and well being naturally. And so, right.
- [100:26]
Rich Roll
I'm just gonna, you know, hold my crystal and put it on my yoni.
- [100:30]
Elle Macpherson
And like, everything's gonna be good and hope for the best. It wasn't that at all. You know, I took into account everything that everybody was saying, and if there was a unanimous decision that was, if you follow these steps, you will heal, then I'm pretty sure I would have gone down that road, you know, no matter what it was. And I had considered. I had considered all my options very, very carefully. As you say, that was the catalyst for the biggest change in my life, for the really coming into to self in my life.
- [101:05]
Rich Roll
Explain that a little bit more.
- [101:08]
Elle Macpherson
Well, I'd had these opportunities leading up to it, so getting sober, having children, building a wellness business where there was sort of a lot of noise outside about what I should do, and then finding my own path through those sort of baby steps. And then when it comes to this big, you know, experience that is an analogy for the world, really, it's like, how do you find your truth? What resonates with you in your heart when there is so much noise outside? And that's what it is really about. And there was no bigger noise than the pressure from all these experts. And they are experts, by the way, and there are people that have gone down that road and done really, really well. So I don't think it's an either or situation. But how do you find your what know, believe is right for you at that given moment, despite all that noise?
- [102:10]
Rich Roll
Owning your truth and your space and being able to withstand that when, you know, all these articles are getting written, you know, stuff's happening, that's one thing. But that's sort of. Those are strangers, right? But you have loved ones and family and two boys, you know, who were concerned about you and having to kind of stay true to what you felt was right for you amidst, you know, the pressures and the challenges and the fears of the people that care about you the most.
- [102:43]
Elle Macpherson
Well, we all wanted the same thing in the family, is that we wanted me to get well. So, like, what was the route to getting well? And there was a difference of opinion along the way. And you know, that happens. People will have different opinions on what is the best route. And, you know, the kids wanted me to be well, and so did I. And I wanted to make a decision that would Be the closest aligned to what I thought would work for me being well. And they trusted my decision in the end.
- [103:11]
Rich Roll
Is there anything more that you want to say about that? That maybe you Wish, you know, 60 Minutes had asked you or that you want to correct the record on or clarify where there might be some confusion out there? I want to give you that opportunity.
- [103:25]
Elle Macpherson
Thank you. I think there's a couple of things to be said. You know, often we talk about a holistic approach as being sort of just a woo woo, natural approach to things when it comes to medical situations. But for me, a holistic approach is to look at things from an emotional, physical, mental and a spiritual point of view view. I know that they're connected. If the body is showing being unwell or dissonant in illness physically, then it stands to reason that we would also have to look at, okay, where is the dissonance emotionally and spiritually? Because the manifestation is in the body. But the beginning of the dissonance comes from the emotional and spiritual well being. And so I wanted to look at all the aspects, not just the physical symptom, but all the other stuff. And all the guilt that I hadn't processed, all the shame that I hadn't processed. And not only that, but you know, belief systems that I had, fears that I had that could contribute to me being unwell. In my case, it manifested in cancer, but in other people's case it could be a myriad of other things. So I really wanted to look at it from a holistic point of view in that sense. And I think there's some misinformation that holistic just means, oh, I'm just going to take natural products, right.
- [104:55]
Rich Roll
That you're being very cavalier in the public square. And that has ramifications. Right?
- [105:02]
Elle Macpherson
But I think, and that certainly wasn't the case at all.
- [105:05]
Rich Roll
I think what can get misinterpreted about what you just shared is this idea that, oh, you know, if you have cancer, it's your fault, it's your behavior, you know, like you brought it upon yourself because you didn't heal your emotional wounds or something like that. I think what you're attempting to say or where your heart is at is that disease is dis ease. Right? It is, you know, a byproduct of something in your system that is out of balance. Right. And it can be profoundly out of balance or it can be, you know, subtly out of balance. And nobody is in perfect balance all the time. We're not living in a harmonious state. Right. And the choices that we make impact the caliber of that balance. And when those scales are tipped too far in one direction for too long in a chronic context, you are creating an environment where you're vulnerable to some type of kind of disorder, I guess I would say. And that can be emotionally, mentally, physically. If you're compromised in some way and as a result your immune system is compromised, then you create an environment that's more receptive to something going sideways.
- [106:17]
Elle Macpherson
Absolutely. And that's why I chose to look at it from that perspective.
- [106:22]
Rich Roll
And where are you in that process? Like, what still comes up? What's challenging you? What's the next evolution of the spiritual progression and growth, the challenge that is intractable, that keeps sort of tripping you up when you know it shouldn't.
- [106:40]
Elle Macpherson
I think it's that thing of being in the present every now, you know, taking stock of what's truly going on now and not projecting into the future or living the cellular memory of the past. And I find myself triggered by the past at times. You know, oh, that happened before. So I want to mitigate that or I don't want that to happen again. So, you know, I have to watch out because I know need to that kind of thing. And really, when I'm sitting in the present, in the now, everything is perfect. Everything is exactly the way it's meant to be. There is no. I'll probably go home from this podcast and have that moment that was like, man, I don't know if I did a good job with Rich today. You know, that will come up, I'm pretty sure at some point. And then I have to immediately readdress that within myself. Go. I know that whatever transpired between us was perfect for the listener, for Rich, and for me in that given moment. I know that in my heart of hearts. So don't jump into my automatic thing conditioning, which is, I fucked up, I didn't do a good job. I let myself down, I let Rich down, I let the readers down. I didn't explain myself well. I wish I could have done that again. And it's that conversation that I have with myself often. And the more I do that, the more I reframe those fears or those insecurities or those doubts within myself. The more I do that, I'm creating new pathways where I don't go to that place so much anymore. And that's where the joy is, and that's where the fulfillment is, and that's where the love is in life, that we're not second guessing everything that we.
- [108:21]
Rich Roll
Do or doubt ourselves yeah, well, you know, congratulations. You're still a human being. You're not, you haven't transcended the mortal coil yet. You're not.
- [108:30]
Elle Macpherson
Clearly I haven't transcended. That's why I'm still here.
- [108:33]
Rich Roll
I'm gonna go home and read. Be here now again. Yeah. This is the dilemma of being in a human body.
- [108:39]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [108:39]
Rich Roll
You know, like if you can transcend like everything that you just shared, like, call me and let me know how you did it, because I would like to know.
- [108:45]
Elle Macpherson
Well, if we did, if we have transcended, we wouldn't be here in the human form because that's, that's what we are all here doing.
- [108:51]
Rich Roll
I know, right? Yes. In this illusion of the self, how can we just enjoy our life and be joyful and serve others with love?
- [109:03]
Elle Macpherson
I love that word enjoy because I think it should be written enjoy. Enjoy. To be enjoy.
- [109:11]
Rich Roll
Like I N J O Y. Yeah.
- [109:13]
Elle Macpherson
I'm going to rewrite the language here.
- [109:16]
Rich Roll
Yes, Well, I grant you that power. You can rewrite the language. Well, let's end up with talking a little bit about Wellco. So, you know, back where we started, we're doing a circle here. So we started with your entrepreneurial journey and now we're going to end with that. So you have this wellness company and obviously wellness is. This is like the most important thing to you. You live it, you breathe it, and you've taken all of this business acumen and experience and entrepreneurship and put it into this wellness company, which is pretty cool. So what was the idea behind it and what do you want people to know about it?
- [109:53]
Elle Macpherson
It's such a blessing to be able to put your heart into something that really rocks your world and well being. And wellness has been such a theme in my life, through my career and through motherhood. When I turned 50, all the things that I'd been doing, like just the nutritional programs and the exercise program and everything wasn't working. You know, my body wasn't responding to it and I was feeling really run down, depleted, coffee addicted, sugar addicted, sleep deprived. My skin changed, my hair changed, I was putting on weight. And I went to the doctor and I said to him, listen, and I don't even know myself anymore. I don't feel myself anymore. I've got no sense of vitality. I've lost my libido. I don't have my mojo going, what's going on? And he said, oh, you know, you're just turning 50 and that's normal. That's a hormonal change going through and it's just normal. And I thought to myself, how can I support myself through these changes? And I know that I can't rely on genetics the way I've been able to in the past. So I found a fantastic naturopath and I started working with her and I said, look, I'm taking all these vitamins, nothing's working. And she said, well, the vitamins you're taking are synthetic, so they're not bioavailable. Your body's not recognizing them. To some extent you're suffering from malnutrition, which is like a bizarre concept in this modern age that you can be malnourished, but you know, we're not letting the soils rest like we used to. So you're not getting vitamins and minerals from your vegetables like you were. You need supplementation. And she put me on a program of greens, which I'd never taken greens before. And within about six weeks I saw such a turnaround in my health and well being. And over it compounded over six weeks, 12 weeks. And I felt like, you know, my skin got better, my hair got better and everything just life improved. And I thought to myself, if I'm feeling like this, there must be other people. And so I wanted to bring this to other people. And that was the foundation. It was a result of my own wellness journey and the willingness and the desire to help people on their journey. And fortunately I had the business acumen to actually put it into action. But the purpose was to help people find optimum well being so that they can live their life to, to the fullest, so that they can bring their unique self into the world with, you know, feeling great and looking great and being fulfilled in life.
- [112:28]
Rich Roll
That's cool. And so what are the primary kind of products?
- [112:33]
Elle Macpherson
We have a super greens, which is called the super elixir, which is 50 ingredients, vitamins, minerals, probiotics, prebiotics, adaptogens. And that was the hero product that I created with the nutritionist and the group of scientists that we worked with. And that was the foundation, foundation of my kind of wellness program. Lowered inflammation because I'd never heard about, I didn't know about inflammation and cortisol for example. And so lowering the inflammation in the body, that's the super greens. And then we have a protein powder and a sleep elixir. We have 17 products. But the foundation was a three step well program. So greens protein and evening elixir for sleep. And that was like this foundation of well being. And it was simple, it was portable, it was Effective. It was quality ingredients, quality combination of ingredients. It is. I don't like to talk about it in past tense. And that's the foundation of the business.
- [113:31]
Rich Roll
And can you purchase it anywhere in the world? Like, do you ship worldwide or.
- [113:36]
Elle Macpherson
So we started as an online business. We have 70% online and 30% bricks and mortar. We're an Australian based company. We ship global, globally. Worldco.com and you can go on the site and you can see all the different things we have from, you know, hair caps, skin caps, hormonal balancing caps, protein powders, sleep powders. But I really wanted something that was going to be bioavailable and I loved the idea of powders because I feel that we are. And we still have some caps. But we come from a society where if you're unwell, you take a pill. And I wanted to break that. So cycle to some extent that we were offering a nutritional powder that you mix with water that is also hydration, and that we're taking it consciously as a supplement that is to enhance our life rather than taking a pill to deal with symptoms. And that was the foundation of the purpose. And here we are 10 years later doing wonderfully well. But when I say wonderfully well, well, not just from a financial point of view, but from the support that we have from our community that take the products and say, I feel so much better. I look so much better. I'm making better decisions for myself because I feel better in my life. I feel a more present parent, capable, energized, happy. And so if people are saying that, then I feel that we're doing a good job.
- [115:04]
Rich Roll
I think that probably is a good fit feeling. Right?
- [115:08]
Elle Macpherson
I think that's what we're all chasing.
- [115:10]
Rich Roll
On this journey of trying to find meaning and purpose and fulfillment in life, to be able to serve people in that way.
- [115:17]
Elle Macpherson
Service is the most underrated thing. You know, we all think serving or the concept of being helpful or supporting others is a. Is a moral obligation. But in fact, we are the ones that benefit from it. And we know that from our experience in aa. It's what we get from serving others.
- [115:38]
Rich Roll
Service is the ultimate selfishness.
- [115:40]
Elle Macpherson
True. It's true. That's a good one. I'm gonna use that. Yeah.
- [115:44]
Rich Roll
Yeah. This was great. Thank you for doing it.
- [115:47]
Elle Macpherson
Thank you.
- [115:47]
Rich Roll
I thought you were fantastic.
- [115:48]
Elle Macpherson
Thank you for having me.
- [115:49]
Rich Roll
And I appreciate you coming and sharing openly and vulnerably. I put you on the spot a few times. You kind of met me admirably in some challenging moments. And I think your Message is powerful. I know you've been kind of touring the world with the book and this is gonna continue. Continue. And I just encourage you to keep sharing, you know, these stories because I think that they're resonant and important. So thank you for doing that. Everybody can go and pick up the book. L. All you have to do is write the audiobook or the audiobook anywhere you get your books and wellco.com. yeah.
- [116:24]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [116:24]
Rich Roll
You're kind of sort of semi on tour with Doyle, right? Like kind of going traveling around.
- [116:29]
Elle Macpherson
Yeah.
- [116:30]
Rich Roll
Elle's part plays guitar for Eric Clapton, so that's very exciting. That's a whole other podcast. In another.
- [116:36]
Elle Macpherson
That is a whole other podcast. And that's why also the audiobook's so interesting. Cause he scored the audiobook.
- [116:41]
Rich Roll
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [116:42]
Elle Macpherson
So it's quite magical. And also it's, you know, he's. It's very lyrical at the beginning and end of each chapters musically. But he's infused it with gongs, all healing frequencies. So gongs, sound bowls, Native American flu, didgeridoo, all the earth, insects, instruments.
- [117:02]
Rich Roll
He could play the didgeridoo or. He found a didgeridoo.
- [117:05]
Elle Macpherson
He found a didgeridoo player. He does the tube and throat singing in it, but yeah. Give you the circular breathing and it's extraordinary. I'd like to be able to play the dig. Can you?
- [117:14]
Rich Roll
That's pretty cool. No, I don't know.
- [117:16]
Elle Macpherson
I can't play anything. You're playing the world stage with all the beautiful podcasts that you bring.
- [117:23]
Rich Roll
I have no musical skill. Everyone else in my family is musician except for me.
- [117:29]
Elle Macpherson
You, music through your words.
- [117:31]
Rich Roll
This was great. Thank you.
- [117:32]
Elle Macpherson
Thank you.
- [117:34]
Rich Roll
Best of luck to you and this was just a delight. I appreciate it. Cheers. Yeah.
- [117:38]
Elle Macpherson
Thank you.
- [117:55]
Rich Roll
That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive. My books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power meal planner@meals.richroll.com if you'd like to support the podcast. The easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free to check out all their amazing offers head to Rich Royal sponsors and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our Creative Director, Dan Drake, portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.
- [119:37]
Elle Macpherson
It.