The Rich Roll Podcast: "Me, But Better: Olga Khazan On The Science of Personality Change, Challenging Fixed Mindsets, & The Big Five Traits That Shape Your Life"

Host: Rich Roll
Guest: Olga Khazan
Date: August 25, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Rich Roll sits down with journalist and author Olga Khazan to explore her yearlong quest to change her personality—an experiment that began with a viral Atlantic article and culminated in her book, Me, But Better. Together, they examine the science and practice of personality change, the myth of personality as a fixed entity, and practical techniques (and setbacks) in becoming a better, more fulfilled version of oneself. The discussion ranges from actionable psychology and personal stories to the role of discomfort, authenticity, and community in transformation.

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Origin of the Personality Change Experiment

• Setting the Scene: Olga describes a "death by a thousand cuts" day (08:23)—haircut gone wrong, bad photoshoot, family stress—which triggered a breakdown and sparked her decision to attempt changing deep-seated traits like neuroticism, low agreeableness, and introversion.

  • Quote: "It wasn’t any one thing, but it’s the accumulation... this worldview that the world isn’t adhering to my plan." – Olga (11:46)

• Motivation: Frustration with being overwhelmed and reactions to minor stressors prompted self-inquiry: “There are so many people who would have looked at that day and said, hey, I’m getting my photo taken for the Atlantic! How cool.” (12:45)

• Turning Inward: Olga recognizes patterns of anxiety, withdrawal, and anger, realizing these relate to her scores on the Big Five personality traits (14:02).

2. Understanding Personality: The Big Five Model

• Definition: Personality as “the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you.” (17:56)

• The Big Five (OCEAN):

  • Openness: Curiosity, creativity.

  • Conscientiousness: Organization, diligence.

  • Extraversion: Sociability, energy.

  • Agreeableness: Empathy and warmth.

  • Neuroticism: Tendency toward anxiety and moodiness. (20:48)

  • Quote: "No one is a pure introvert or extrovert...we all have little bits of all the different traits." – Olga (22:59)

• Spectrum & Mutability: Traits exist on continua, not binaries, and people shift along these axes based on life stage and circumstance.

3. Is Change Possible? Debunking the Fixed Mindset

• Science: Studies show significant change is possible, even in adulthood (24:44).

  • Fixed mindsets (e.g., “You are who you are after 30”) are outdated.
  • Quote: "It is relatively recent...the idea of mutability is maybe 10 years old in the research world." – Olga (24:44)

• Assessing Change: Olga scores high on neuroticism and low on extraversion at the experiment's outset, confirming her suspicions and highlighting areas to tackle (30:26).

4. Action-Based Change: Methods, Discomfort, and Results

• Key Insight: Talking is not enough. Change requires actual, often uncomfortable, action. Therapy is helpful but not sufficient alone (16:29).

• Olga’s Process:

  • Testing Activities: Improv classes, mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) meditation (69:26), volunteering, mom groups, and Bumble BFF meetups (53:21).

  • Discomfort as a Signal: The early stages of behavioral change are always uncomfortable. "Everything you do initially is going to feel very, very uncomfortable...but if you have a value or a goal on the other side, you have to persevere." (62:01)

  • Fake It Till You Make It: Actively behaving like the person you aspire to be fosters real change, even if it initially feels inauthentic (87:16).

  • Quote: “Just because it doesn’t feel natural or comfortable doesn’t mean it’s not authentic.” – (63:14)

• Authenticity: Rejects the idea that only what feels easy is "you": “We all have multiple authenticities.” (88:14)

• Transformation: Even after initial “relapse,” she continues applying strategies, recognizing social connection is more vital than she believed (53:56).

5. Practical Challenges: Agreeableness, Boundaries, and Communication

• Agreeableness Confusion: Being agreeable isn’t the same as being a pushover or people pleaser. Setting boundaries kindly is possible and healthier (32:16).

• Example: A friend demanded weekly texts as a friendship condition; Olga learns to communicate her own preferences rather than appease (33:08).

  • Quote: “You can have boundaries with people and state the boundaries in a kind way, and not just go along to get along.” (32:16)

• Volunteering: Working in a homeless day center shows how kindness and firmness coexist (37:09).

6. Neuroticism Strategies: Acceptance, Mindfulness, and Curiosity

• Worry Management:
  • Limit worry to “worry periods” or write down worries plus possible positives (64:42).
  • Exposure to physical sensations of anxiety reduces fear of those sensations.
  • Mindfulness and “Buddhism for Dummies” offer relief: “You don’t have to be in charge of everything working out perfectly.” (71:16)
  • “All we can do is everything we can do.” (75:44, attributed to David Axelrod)

7. Social Connection and Community as Antidotes

• Loneliness & the Pandemic: Both hosts realize through lockdown that even introverts need connection (54:36).
• Community Activities: Regular, structured events (book clubs, classes) help break inertia (107:16).
• Helping Others as Relief: Volunteering interrupts self-obsession and anxiety (93:56).

8. Changing Contexts: Parenting, Legacy, and Perpetuating Patterns

• Parenthood: Becoming a parent tests and transforms personality, especially control and anxiety issues (103:23).
  • Breaking cycles is “being a cycle breaker” and is challenging but rewarding (103:05).

9. Tools for Getting Unstuck

• Concrete Tips:
  • Commit to regularly scheduled group activities.
  • Partner with someone similarly motivated ("healthy peer pressure") (109:40).
• Reflect on Values: Action is driven by meaningful goals (109:17).
• Mood Follows Action: Change begins by doing, not waiting to feel motivated (97:04).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Breaking Down and Starting the Journey:

• "It wasn’t any one thing, but it’s the accumulation... this worldview that the world isn’t adhering to my plan." – Olga, (11:46)

On Personality as Spectrum:

• "No one is a pure introvert or extrovert...we all have little bits of all the different traits." – Olga, (22:59)

On Agency and Change:

• "It’s a very hopeful message... we have quite a bit more agency than perhaps we really understand." – Rich, (57:43)

On Discomfort:

• "Everything you do that’s new is gonna feel uncomfortable the first time." – Olga, (62:01)
• "Just because it doesn’t feel natural or comfortable doesn’t mean it’s not authentic." – (63:14; Sonia Lyubomirski via Olga)

On Setting Boundaries:

• "You can have boundaries with people and state the boundaries in a kind way... not just go along to get along." – Olga, (32:16)

On Control and Letting Go:

• "All we can do is everything we can do." – David Axelrod quote (75:44)

On Agency in the Face of Challenge:

• "You probably have it in you to face that challenge... You have the skills and the traits, you just need to nurture them. Don’t let your personality determine the things that you do in life." – Olga, (132:25, 00:02)

Timestamps of Key Segments

Olga’s Breaking Point Story: 08:23–14:02
The Big Five Explained: 20:48–22:30
Personality as Mutable: 24:44–26:57
Testing & Assessing Traits: 29:50–31:20
Agreeableness and Boundaries: 32:16–35:31
Neuroticism Strategies: 64:42–69:26
Mindfulness, Buddhism, Letting Go: 71:16–79:20
Parenting and Legacy: 103:01–106:22
Practical Tips: 107:16–109:17
Final Takeaway (You Have It In You): 132:25–133:21

Episode Takeaways & Final Messages

• Personality is not destiny. Most traits are flexible, and change is possible at any age.
• Action precedes transformation. True change requires doing, not just thinking or talking.
• Discomfort signals growth. If it feels unnatural, you’re probably on the right track.
• Authenticity is multifaceted. You can act “as if” and become a new, equally real version of yourself.
• Connection and service counteract anxiety and self-obsession.
• Values and goals drive substantial, sustainable change.
• You have it in you. (132:25) Your potential is greater than you realize, unlocked by courage and persistence.

For Further Reflection

Olga’s book, Me, But Better, offers deeper dives and practical exercises for those interested in experimenting with personality change, along with her signature blend of research and vulnerability.

Olga: “You have it in you to face that challenge... Don’t let your personality determine the things you do in life.” (00:02, 132:25)

This episode is a nuanced guide for anyone curious about self-improvement, showing through lived experience and research that personality, happiness, and well-being are malleable—if you’re willing to act.