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The Rich Roll Podcast
Me, But Better: Olga Khazan On The Science of Personality Change, Challenging Fixed Mindsets, & The Big Five Traits That Shape Your Life
02:12:04
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- [00:03]
A
If there's some challenge in your life or something that you're facing or something unfamiliar that you have it in you to face that challenge. Like, you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that and you just need to nurture them. You need to go out and act as if fake it till you make it and rise to the occasion. And you can don't let your personality determine the things that you do in life.
- [00:37]
B
Hey people, today we are going to pontificate on personality. What it is, what's fixed about it and what's not, and what we can plausibly do when we decide we're done with some part of ours and desire to do something about it. So insofar as this is a show about change, today's question to ask and answer is, is it possible to actually change your personality? And if so, how and to what extent? Before we do that, I would like to take a moment of gratitude to thank everyone for their enthusiasm for last week's episode with James Fry. I loved it. I I think it will stand the test of time as one of my all time faves. But you know, James is a lot and for many, an acquired taste I imagine. So I can't say I was all that sure how all of you would receive it. So it's been really great to get so much positive feedback and really heartwarming to hear from so many of you how it recalled the kind of conversation that harkens back to the early days of the show, the audio only days when I was like this traveling salesman peddling my podcast wares and knocking on doors to greet my guests with a suitcase full of gear that I would set up on their kitchen table or in a hotel room or some random conference room by the airport. And I've got a lot of love and a lot of nostalgia for that time. There was a romance to it, a purity, and it was exciting because it was new and unlike now, not that many people were doing it. So if I was lucky enough to catch lightning with a guest like James Fry, like I did with some of my early episodes with people like John McAvoy and David Goggins, it would be like this event. But things have changed a lot. And as I discussed in my most recent roll on, most of those changes have been amazing. But some of the best aspects of this media format seem to have been slightly eroded in the midst of this growth spurt. And some of those things are the very things that got me interested in it in the first place. And what I still love about it the most, which is the unvarnished and vulnerable version of people sharing openly their very human stories gleaned from personal experience. And all of this I bring up to say that I found the response to the James Fry episode, as well as the Craig Mott episode, I should add, and a couple others in there, as really heartwarming and affirming because it means that, you know, I'm not alone. And so you guys have inspired me to be more proactive and more committed to getting back to the real heartbeat of all of this, prioritizing this kind of experience for you and pursuing it more intentionally and rigorously, kind of like an artist would their art. And so I guess I'm making a bit of a public announcement to you and to that. So thanks for the nudge. Stay tuned because you know it's going to take a minute because, you know, we batch a lot of stuff in advance. And the second thing real quick is that I'm in the early stages of doing more stuff on Substack these days. We've got plans to do much more there in the near future. So this is, you know, early, early days. But I have started publishing some essays there about once a week, including one reflecting on the James Fry experience that I'm pretty proud of. So if you're not on my substack, if you have never been on Substack, check it out. I'm rich. Roll there just like I am on all the social media platforms. Or you can find a link in the show notes on the episode page on my website, richroll.com all right, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with more what if we've all been thinking about our future wrong? What if there is no finish line? What if there's only a through line? Well, that's the idea behind a special project I've been working on with Lincoln Financial, a four part series of mini documentaries in which each episode features me spending the better part of a day with a to understand what it really takes to evolve with intention over the long haul and how to sustain what you love across the physical, mental and financial dimensions of life. My guests include something for everyone. Andre Agassi, tennis legend Olympian Sarah True, musician Walker Hayes and expert in personal finance. So if you're drawn to the kind of depth that we explore on this show, I think you're going to really connect with this program. It's called the Action Plan and you can check it out now at lincolnfinancial.com/rich roller movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion even. Movement is a language. It's a way of connecting body, mind and environment. Movement as a way of being, a way of being that brings me close to myself, closer to other people, and to what matters most in life. And for me, what we wear in that pursuit plays a crucial role. And that's what I appreciate about ON they engineer apparel that supports and elevates the practice of movement itself. From running shorts with built in support to technical tees that cool you down right where it matters. This is apparel born from precision and tested by elite athletes, but made for anyone committed to the path. I've been with on since 2023, and I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not Flash. Head to on.comrichroll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. So a couple years ago I came across this article in the Atlantic titled I Gave Myself three Months to Change My Personality, where this journalist decided that she was kind of fed up with certain aspects of herself and and she decided to set about changing them. And it was this really great article. It was cheeky, it was provocative, really informative as well. And so when I found out that she ended up extending her experiment for an entire year and then turning that into a book, which is called Me But Better, I decided I best book her for the show because I find all of this fascinating and because I think it really captures the theme of this podcast, which is, if it's anything, what do we need to know and do to change for the better? And after all that, I think I better just get into it. So have at it with me and Olga Hazan. Olga, thank you for coming.
- [07:34]
A
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you.
- [07:35]
B
Excited to talk to you. In thinking about your latest book and your work kind of more broadly, essentially you're somebody who's challenged by and confused by a certain degree of anxiety and neuroticism that you're experiencing, or you're having these challenging emotions, you're trying to sort them out and figure out if there might be a better way to live. And maybe you can speak a little bit about the specifics of that, but you make this decision that you're going to go on this journey to address that, and you're going to do it through the lens of personality change. So I have questions about that choice, but maybe just paint the picture of who you were at the beginning of the journey. We're going to talk about.
- [08:24]
A
So the book starts out with kind of a good encapsulation of this issue, which is I had this day in Miami. I was like, on my partner and I had been going down to Florida in the wintertime because I have seasonal affective disorder, which is also addressed in the book. So we're in Miami. There's really unimpeachable weather, like, beautiful. We're, like, overlooking the ocean, you know? And I have this day where I have to do a bunch of stuff that is, like, slightly annoying or just, like, slightly challenging. And I just. It breaks me. Like, I have to go get a haircut, and the haircut is bad. It's not a good haircut. It doesn't look good on me. She didn't listen to what I said or I didn't communicate properly. And I just. I immediately chug a beer in order to try to, like, emotionally deal with this bad haircut, which is how I dealt with my problems at the time. And I kind of lost my car in this parking garage. But then I, like, fight through traffic and I get to this photo shoot, which is the next thing I have to do. And I get there and he's like, do you want to fix your hair? I was like, this is trying to.
- [09:40]
B
Be helpful, but, like, not understanding.
- [09:42]
A
It's like, a result of me spending money on my hair. And he takes a bunch of photos of me, and they're like, they're not good. I don't like the photos. I think they look bad. But I'm not allowed to say this because they're for work.
- [09:55]
B
Yeah, this is because they're gonna go on the Atlantic. They're gonna be in the Atlantic.
- [10:02]
A
They're gonna be a giant, this blown up magazine size in the print Atlantic magazine that goes out to millions of people. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, this is the worst photo of me ever taken. So I'm like, okay. Okay. Yeah, okay. So I'm, you know, back in traffic. I'm not a very good driver. I'm, like, driving. I'm already, like, sweating this photo. I end up taking a bunch of wrong turns. And I, like, my, like, path home gets, like, longer and longer. My boss is, like, slacking me about something at the same time as I'm driving. And he's like, this story needs work and, like, can you make these edits? And I'm like, trying to respond to him, but also driving. I have to go to the grocery store because my mom needs these, like, special foods. For her, like, diet. And, like, I'm at the grocery store and my cart locks, like, right outside the store. And so I have to, like, carry all my groceries or. No, I end up dragging my. My cart through this hot parking lot to my car. I drive my car to the Airbnb. It's just like a. Like a day of, like, minor stressors that eat away at me. And I basically get up to the Airbnb and I kind of just break down. I just have, like, when people say a nervous breakdown, I think that's just what I had. I start just crying and kind of just. I think I said, I hate everyone and everything. I'm, like, chugging wine. And, you know, even now telling this story, I'm like, that kind of is fine. I mean, that's like an annoying day, but it's not, you know, hair grows back. And, like, I didn't get in a car accident or anything.
- [11:47]
B
I mean, setting aside the fact that you write for the Atlantic and you're having your photograph taken for, like, this magazine, it's a very human story and extremely relatable, you know, and it's a story like many of the other stories in the book you tell with a certain level of self deprecation. Like, it's death by a thousand cuts. It's not any one thing, but it's the accumulation of these, you know, inconveniences and this world worldview that, like, the world isn't, you know, kind of adhering to, like, my plan. Yes, that. That, you know, eventually boil over into again, like, a very human moment. Like, you just. You were overwhelmed and, you know, your anxiety burst through. But, you know, as somebody who is in recovery and, like, I'm like an AA person, like, this is like your come to Jesus moment. Like, you're having your awakening. You know, it's like you're hitting bottom and you suddenly are blessed with the willingness to actually look at yourself and do something about it.
- [12:45]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. And I kind of was just like, you know, there are so many people who would have looked at that day and said, hey, I'm getting my photo taken for the Atlantic. Like, how cool.
- [12:56]
B
It's all perspective.
- [12:57]
A
Yeah. You know, like, that's. Who cares what the photo looks like? You know, like, any rational person would.
- [13:03]
B
Look at it that way.
- [13:04]
A
Like, I just couldn't see. See the positive side of things or the way that things are not all that bad, or the way that I hadn't, like, somehow darkly, like, you know, picked the wrong hairdresser. Or, you know, done something terrible to, like, make this all happen.
- [13:20]
B
So with this, you know, kind of moment that you experience and this recognition that, like, maybe you should, like, get into action on this, like, you make this decision to, you know, explore yourself through the lens of personality and personality change, which is very interesting and different choice. Like, there's so many. There's, you know, thousands of books you could have picked up. You could have called your colleague Arthur Brooks. Like, there's a lot of resources at your disposal and threads that you could have pulled. And. And so I'm curious around, like, how did you land on this idea of personality change in the first place as being the kind of modality that you were going to approach this problem?
- [14:03]
A
So I had already done some research showing that personality traits have a pretty big influence on our lives. So some of the traits, like conscientiousness, they matter more than, like, IQ or socioeconomic status on. On some outcomes like mortality and job performance. So I kind of knew that this was all kind of connected to personality. Like, it wasn't just this random, like, I need to figure out how to stop having nervous breakdowns. I knew that that was connected to the. The trait of neuroticism. And kind of. It wasn't just my neuroticism that was going wrong at the time. This was kind of. As the pandemic was letting up. It was like 20, 21 or early 22, and I just kind of wasn't getting back out there. Like, I never had a pandemic bubble, so I kind of just didn't see anyone for a year. And I just. Even when it was, like, safe to gather, I wasn't. I was kind of just, like, retreating into myself. And, you know, if had a busy work week, I was like, well, I deserve to sit on the couch and drink wine and not talk to anyone, and that will be more restorative than connecting with other people. And I kind of realized that, I mean, I had friends technically, like people from high school, people from college, but I just didn't interact with anyone most weeks. And I was like, that's not healthy. And also my. So there's a trait called agreeableness, which has a lot to do with warmth and empathy. Um, and for me, a part of it was anger and that I. I would get really angry, both at myself and at other people. Um, and so I kind of wanted to tackle everything at once. Like, I wanted to revamp multiple sides of myself as opposed to just meditating a lot.
- [16:00]
B
But the normal response or the Typical person would have said, okay, I know I have these things. I have a certain degree of self awareness about them. Time to go to therapy. Right. Which is a piece. But is it because you had already spent so much time talking to all kinds of people, social scientists, and on some level understood the research around mental well being that made this kind of a more obvious choice for you?
- [16:29]
A
I think part of it is just, yes. So some of the research that I had already previously done, but also I was actually in therapy, and therapy is definitely part of it. And there are studies that show that, you know, going to therapy reduces neuroticism by a significant amount. So I definitely recommend therapy. Same with antidepressants. Like, I. If that works for people, I definitely recommend them. But part of, like, this science of personality change is that you actually have to go out and do stuff. Like, just talking about it doesn't really fix the problem. Like, you kind of have to walk the walk. And, you know, my therapist would suggest things to me like, hey, maybe you should get a hobby. And I would kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, sure. I kind of wanted something that was like a, you know, boot camp or like a plan of some kind that would actually force me to do things. Because that. That is really the key part of personality change and of ultimately feeling better is. Is getting out of your house and actually doing the activities that. That are associated with personality change.
- [17:33]
B
The premise is that personality is mutable, and perhaps more mutable than we're prone to believe. Like, we identify it as this relatively fixed thing. And I'm curious around, you know, myth versus truth when it comes to that. But first, let's just define, like, what is. What is personality?
- [17:56]
A
Yeah. So most of the scientists that I talk to think of it as the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you. So if you're in Miami and you're getting your photo taken for the Atlantic magazine and the photos look bad, are you like, oh, well, at least I'm, you know, getting my photo taken for the Atlantic. Like, I'm so blessed. Thank you, Jesus. Like, I'm gonna drive home now. Or do you have a huge meltdown, you know, and fall to pieces? The kind of. The people who study personality change have a twist on that, which is that personality helps us pursue our goals. So we kind of are all subtly trying to accomplish various things in our lives all the time. And our personality traits help us accomplish those goals. And sometimes when we find that we're really far from our goals or we're not able to do the things that we set out to do. We end up kind of changing our personalities without totally realizing it. So this is like people who become super conscientious so they can get their dream job or so they can excel at their dream job. We end up kind of molding ourselves a little bit in order to get the things that we want. So that that's kind of the extra twist on it that goes beyond just like what you're already like.
- [19:19]
B
And how does personality differ from mindset or attitude? Because those things are obviously important in terms of, you know, sort of setting ourselves about achieving goals as well.
- [19:33]
A
Yeah, Great question. So there's not like a psychology, obviously. It's a soft science.
- [19:39]
B
Yeah. It's hard, like when these words get around. I was like, yeah, but is mindset like, what's a subset of what here?
- [19:44]
A
Yeah. The other one I always get is like, how is it different from habit? So it's kind of like personality is like all of the above. Right.
- [19:51]
B
It's like if who you are is what you do, then isn't habit a fundamental aspect of personality? I don't know. You know, it gets weird.
- [19:59]
A
Yeah. I would say that the most common way of like reconciling these that I hear is that habit, mindset and attitude are all part of personality. But it kind of ultimately becomes like they kind of all get braided together and become kind of like your identity or like who you. Yeah. Identify as. You know, people who go for a jog every day, you know, eventually they might start to consider themselves like a runner. And so that would be kind of more like a personality type than I just happen to exercise whenever I can remember.
- [20:39]
B
So how does science identify personality? Talk a little bit about the big five.
- [20:49]
A
Yeah. So the conclusion that psychologists have come to after debating this for decades is that there are five personality traits. You can remember them with the acronym ocean. So it's openness to experiences, which is kind of a nebulous trait. But it's sort of like open mindedness, how up you are for new ideas and activities. This is associated with political liberalism and kind of creativity. C is conscientiousness, which is the go getters among us. These people get up early, they do go for a morning jog. They love to crush it at work. They know where all their stuff is. They get places on time. E for extraversion. Extraversion. The opposite is introversion. It is sort of like that. Like I need quiet time to myself to recharge. Except that we all need quiet time to ourselves to recharge not just introverts, extroverts also. They like being around people, and they also just are more active. They just do a lot more activities. They like to get outside the house and be doing things, even if they're not talking while they're doing it. Agreeableness is warmth and empathy toward others. These people have really. They're happier, they're kind of more resilient in the face of adversity, and they have really meaningful and deep relationships with other people. And then neuroticism is basically depression and anxiety, and the opposite is emotional stability. So it's sort of like bad things happen to you, and you kind of just take it in stride.
- [22:30]
B
So all of us, to one degree or another, fall somewhere along the spectrum with these five different archetypes? Essentially, yes. But this was not always the consensus on personality. I grew up in a time I remember just hearing about, is it the Myers Briggs, The Briggs Myers test for a very long time. And in the book, you kind of recount the history of science with respect to trying to understand what personality is and isn't.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah. So there before we kind of settled on the big five. And again, there are spectrum. So no one is kind of a pure introvert or extrovert. So all personality change just means moving along the spectrum of the traits. But before that, there was different categories. I mean, Freud had ideas that we. We have, like, these subconscious impulses and that kind of dictates what we do. The trait theorists, who are kind of more popular now, think that, like, no, like, we're pretty aware of what we want. Like, well, you know, people will kind of describe themselves pretty accurately when you ask them. And then the Myers Briggs was popular for a short time, but that one hasn't kind of lasted in terms of validity, just because it kind of tends to put people in categories. So, like, you're an introvert who jud. You know, and none of us are really in a category. Like, we all have. First of all, we all have, like, little bits of all the different traits inside of us. And we might even use different traits at different times, depending on the situation.
- [24:07]
B
We are a multiplicity of personalities. It isn't like a singular thing.
- [24:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. And some people, you know, code switch pretty significantly between. I mean, I do as a parent, you know, I'm not the same person at work or in a hostile interview that I am with my toddler, you know, so we all call upon different elements of traits in order to get through life.
- [24:34]
B
Is the notion around mutability a newer One like, when did that start to become something that scientists were taking seriously?
- [24:45]
A
I would say it is relatively recent. The personality change studies that I write about have only been happening since like the past 10 years or so, which is very recent if you think about the fact that the big five were only really codified in like the early 90s, late 80s. So yeah, it is recent. Nathan Hudson is sort of the big personality change researcher that I profile. But yeah, for a long time there was this, that people change a significant amount or maybe a small amount during childhood, in their teen years. But then once they're 30, the personality is set like plaster, to quote William James. And so people thought like, once you're 30, you're set, you're not gonna change ever again. Your preferences aren't gonna change, your life isn't gonna change. But kind of more recently we find that that's not really true. People do change a significant amount.
- [25:44]
B
I mean, just reflecting back on my own life, like when I think of myself at 30 or even like 35 versus now, like, yeah, my personality is completely different and my preferences are different. Like, you know, I can't be an outlier in that regard. You know, it seems almost self evident or obvious that it can't be a fixed thing. And yet maybe it's the, the Myers Briggs thing or whatever. Briggs, Myers, whatever it is kind of created this idea that it is a static aspect of who we are. Like you are who you are and I'm an introvert and you're an extrovert and that's just the way that it is.
- [26:19]
A
Yeah, I think that the Myers Briggs did because it puts people in categories and so people then have their little four letters or whatever and they kind of carry it around and it becomes self fulfilling. Yeah. And then, I mean, so first of all, I have no problem. People who identify as an introvert, I think that's totally fine if you want to do that. What I would kind of caution against is like taking that and like rejecting opportunities that don't fit with your personality as you think of it. So if you're an introvert, so you can never become a manager because that requires, you know, speaking to people and inspiring people and you know, going out and meeting clients. I would not try to think of yourself as an introvert for a while and see what happens.
- [26:58]
B
Have you had this conversation with Susan Cain?
- [27:01]
A
I have talked to Susan Cain multiple times. So she's wonderful. And she, she did, she did agree to be interviewed. And I, I really love her book and I agree with her ideas. But she and I see the introversion, extroversion thing a little bit differently.
- [27:17]
B
She would say, obviously, you know, if you're introverted, you should not only respect yourself for being introverted and perhaps even celebrate it, but with that understanding, you're in a place where you can make better decisions about, you know, career and social situations, et cetera. And I think part of her book and her work is about rejecting this notion or kind of this cultural idea that if you're introverted, you're less than or bad. Because it's. Obviously, it's, you know, extroverts get a lot of attention, and we celebrate them. And the introverts are, you know, hiding in the corner feeling bad about themselves. And she's saying, you shouldn't feel bad about yourself. But where I think you guys probably agree is we all need connection and we all need community and social nourishment. And you're essentially acknowledging the introvert but saying you have needs just like everyone else. And sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone and put yourself in social situations to make sure that those needs are being met, while also saying, yeah, I'm an introvert, so I need to do that, you know, more sparingly than an extrovert would.
- [28:30]
A
Yeah, I think that's very well said. And, you know, I. So part of my rationale for trying to become more extroverted is that there's all these studies that extroverts are happier. And so I called Sonia Lyubomirski, who's, like, this happiness expert. You probably know, she's amazing. And I was like, look, like, introverts are gonna yell at me, like, quietly, you know, once.
- [28:53]
B
She likes that, though, she likes to mix it.
- [28:57]
A
I was like, look, like, how can extrovert, you know, how can introverts, like, be happy if they're not extroverted? And, you know, she really recommended, like, look, it doesn't mean, like, you go. That you do have to do improv. You can go to a book club and listen more than you talk. And that's, you know, still extroversion, quote, unquote. You know, you can go on a hiking trip and hike around and, like, you know, take things in and not be chatting the whole time. And that still counts as, like, being connected with community.
- [29:25]
B
So you have this acronym, and we have these big five traits. But before you can begin to go on this journey, you have to basically get an assessment. Where are you on the spectrum on all of this? So how did you fare the first time? That you sat down and went through that process.
- [29:51]
A
So I would say I feared. Okay, so I had two things going for me in the spirit of positivity. I was very high on conscientiousness and very high on openness. The things that were not so good. I was a little bit below average on agreeableness, and I was extremely low on extroversion. I was in the 23rd percentile. So I was very introverted. And especially when it came to being. It said friendly or cheerful. So it's not friendly or cheerful.
- [30:27]
B
You seem. Well, whatever work you. I don't. I didn't know you before, but you seem perfectly cheerful and friendly right now.
- [30:33]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's proof is in the pudding now and then. On neuroticism, I scored in the 94th percentile, which, yeah, it's. It was like extremely high with the. Was the classification. Yeah.
- [30:50]
B
So neuroticism is something you're going to have to focus on extroversion a little bit, but it all makes sense. Of course you're conscientious. Of course you're going to be more introverted. You're a writer and as a journalist, you're not meant to be agreeable. I mean, agreeable enough to convince people to talk to you, but your job is to test the outer edges of people's ideas and to not necessarily take people at face value or try trust them implicitly.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah. And that's something that I struggled with in that chapter and something that a lot of people who, like, they're like, I kind of want to be more agreeable, but I don't know. People worry about becoming people pleasers and sort of just agreeing with whatever everyone says or like succumbing to pressure or peer pressure. That's actually like not agreeableness. That's kind of like a different thing. It's like low assertiveness, basically.
- [31:47]
B
It's easy to confuse it for that. I did for a long time. You kind of pride yourself on it. Like, I'm easy to get along with. I'll just say yes. And everybody wants to be around me. Because you're not being authentic, of course. But what you really are saying is, I want to belong and I'll do anything to belong because I'm so desperate to feel a part of something. It's a betrayal of yourself. So you're not agreeable to your own being, and on some level you're not even really agreeing. You're just going along to get along.
- [32:17]
A
Yeah, exactly. And what I had to learn is that there are ways to be agreeable but still stick up for yourself. Like, you can have boundaries with people and state the boundaries in a kind way, you know, and not just go along to get along, but still be liked and possibly even be liked more than you would have been if you had just been saying yes to everything. Because there's gonna come a point where you said yes so much that now you have to really throw down the hammer in a not kind way.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah, the explosion.
- [32:48]
A
Yes.
- [32:49]
B
Well, what you're saying is agreeableness isn't agreeing with people. It's you comport yourself in the face of ideas that you don't agree with or somebody who's being unpleasant or who is, you know, triggering you or provoking some kind of not great emotion inside of you.
- [33:08]
A
Yeah, and I'll give you a really concrete example of something that I did wrong. So I had a friend who. So I don't like texting to catch up with people. Like, I. I'm fine with texting to, like, make plans or like, hey, have you heard of this? Or whatever, like, short little things. But I don't like kind of long texts about what's going on in our lives. I'd prefer a phone call. And so I had a friend who told me that I had to text her to check in with her every week or else she was gonna stop being friends with me. And of course I was like, okay, okay, whatever you want. Like, I'll do it, I'll do it, no problem. But of course, I can't remember to text her every week because texting is not part of my thing that I do is these text check ins, so I forget, and then she stops being friends with me. So I talked with a friendship expert. You could have just said, look, I'm really sorry that I've been making you feel like I'm neglecting you or that I don't care about you. But texting is just not something that I'm able to do at that frequency. Especially in that way. Is there another way that I can catch up with you? Zoom call, Phone call, Something else. I don't know why, but I never thought of that. I just thought you had to say yes to whatever people wanted or else they wouldn't like you.
- [34:21]
B
All right, well, first of all, that is an outrageous request on behalf of somebody who claims to be your friend. If you want to be my friend, you have to do homework, and I'm going to check your homework. Like, that's insane. Right? And I would take that response that you just you know, the response that you feel like you, you could have or should have given that person a step further to say, you said, like, I'm sorry I'm making you feel this way. Like, you're not making her feel you're not responsible for her emotions, you know.
- [34:55]
A
Oh, right, right.
- [34:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like the condition that, you know, she's imposed upon this are pretty onerous. And I would say that somebody who's, who's really a friend or somebody worthy of being your friend is not somebody who would behave that way.
- [35:10]
A
Yeah. And I mean, that was a big part of learning about agreeableness is like, when do I set a boundary and when do I kind of just, you know, agree? When do I go along to get along? And it's been handy with parenting because you have to, you can't just say yes to everything when you're a parent. You have to have boundaries.
- [35:32]
B
Yeah. My wife's so good at this. Somebody recently kind of was trying to tempt her into attending something she didn't want to attend or something. The circumstances are irrelevant, but it was sort of a similar situation of trying to draw her into a web that she didn't want to be a part of. And she was just like, like, yeah, oh, no. Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. Like, but like, was so non plused by the whole thing that it was like, oh, okay. You know, like it just passed. Right. So setting a boundary without the emotional charge around it.
- [36:08]
A
Yeah.
- [36:09]
B
Would be agreeableness.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then not worrying, you know, are they mad at me? Are they mad at me? You know, because as long as you, you didn't yell, you know, you communicated kindly because when, when you really will like ruffle feathers and make people upset as if you, you say yes so much, find yourself in a situation you don't want to be in and then at the last minute say no or like, you know, yell at them for always asking you for things.
- [36:31]
B
Yeah. This is the plight of the chronic people pleaser. Like, I've been in that situation like too many times. And then you resent yourself and then you're mad at that person for no reason. Like it's. And you think like by putting it off or if it's way down the line on the calendar like that, you know, you'll change your mind and want to go when that day. It's just, it's a really bad strategy for, for life. But the fear behind it is you're going to get exiled from the group or whatever. You're going to end a friendship and that's the one thing you're trying to avoid. But everything you're doing is leading you towards that all along.
- [37:10]
A
Yeah. Another thing I did for that chapter was volunteer in a homeless shelter. And I was like, oh, these people must be just complete. Sorry. It wasn't a homeless shelter. It was like a, like a day center for the homeless. And they served, served food, served lunch. That was like the main thing happening. And I thought they would be like these saintly people who just, you know. Yes, whatever you like, you know. But they were like kind of tough. Cause they had to be. Cause they're like trying to, you know, feed hundreds of people, some of whom were in active psychosis in the middle of a pandemic in a, you know, clean and hygienic and like quick way. And so it was like, yeah, no, you can't have seconds yet. You know, put up, pull up your mask. Like they were, they were kind of tough with their clients. But I kind of realized that they had to be because they. So that they could do this broader project of agreeableness, of like getting everyone fed, they had to be kind of.
- [38:09]
B
Strict, you know, individually, disagree, like disagreeable on small things in order to meet the agreeableness of the big things.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [38:22]
B
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- [42:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I feel like a lot of psychologists that I talk to have this concept called me search, which is the thing they end up up like dedicating their lives to and publishing all these studies on is basically something that's like kind of always been wrong with them or like something that they're trying to figure out about themselves and I feel like a lot of journalists have that, too. Like, it might not be as explicit as mine where they're literally like, you know, changing their personality or going on some sort of journey themselves. But I think a lot of journalists have. They're drawn to a beat that kind of speaks to something within themselves or like they're trying to figure something out or like, I don't know, they had kids and then they, you know, became a parenting reporter because they, you know, couldn't figure out some element of parenthood or something. So, yeah, I'm. I'm sort of like that in that I. I've just always. Probably because I spent a lot of time by myself as a kid, I have always kind of wondered, like, why people think. Think the things they do and behave the way they do and. Yeah, so I've just always been drawn to those, like, big, deep questions. So, yeah, I'm fortunate that I get to do that for my job.
- [43:24]
B
Yeah. I mean, writing is about answering questions, but when the question has to do with something you're trying to figure out about yourself, you know, you're going to go on this outward journey to answer it. But it's also, you have to apply those answers inward.
- [43:39]
A
So I had always thought that, like, my unhappiness, like, my tendency toward anxiety and unhappiness and sort of, you know, I call it introversion in the book, but it was really just like a lack of social interaction. I always thought that it was, well, the world is just structured in a way that's making me unhappy and is making me anxious or it's, you know, it's hard for me to make friends because, like, everyone is bad. And I think once I started learning a little bit more about the personality science, I was sort of like, no, I, like, approach things in a way that's counterproductive a lot of the time because I have high levels of neuroticism or I don't know how to kind of manage these feelings of neuroticism when they come up. So I think it went from kind of thinking that, like, oh, man, my life is so stressful. My job is so stressful. Everything is so stressful. And that's why I'm anxious all the time to, like. I think there's something inside me that is. Is making me more prone to stress or making me interpret things that are kind of neutral as more stressful than they need to be.
- [44:47]
B
Well, first of all, those things are also doing something for you. You know, like, you address this in the book. We behave in these errant ways. Because on some level they are serving us. Or at one point in time, they did serve us. And so we're reluctant to let go of them and perhaps even more reluctant to see the ways in which they're leading us astray. Right. Like when they go haywire, like, our strengths become our weaknesses.
- [45:16]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And that was the biggest struggle with letting go of some of my anxiety, is that I always thought that anxiety is how I get things done. Like, that's how I get through life, that's how I meet deadlines, and that's how I perform. And if I didn't have my anxiety, I wouldn't have anything. You know, I would just like, it's your superpower. Yeah.
- [45:36]
B
Like, I would, I would fall, like. Yeah, you wouldn't have got. You wouldn't be riding for the Atlantic. Like, none of these things would have happened. Like, you know, the prospect of like not having that would be like taking the engine out of the car.
- [45:49]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it can really, like, interfere with your ability to have self compassion. Cause you start to think that, like, well, if I'm compassionate to myself, I'm gonna be soft and I'm not gonna try as hard because I'm not gonna, you know, be like, like driving myself to achieve. And I think in some ways, like, that's evolutionarily adaptive. Right. Like people who are here today who are kind of anxious, high achievers, you know, their like ancestors, you know, generations and generations back, like, they were the ones who like spotted the saber toothed tiger or whatever, you know, they. We come from a long line of people who were anxious and it did something for us. And it's really hard to let go of that.
- [46:30]
B
Or you're the exception to the rule. Rule. And you have built this life and you reflect back on it and see all the people that didn't have this thing that you have. And it's easy to then come to the conclusion that it was because of that and perhaps solely because of that that you were able to do these amazing things.
- [46:50]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Like, when I look at people, you know, they got laid off. Was it because they weren't anxious enough about, you know, their performance or something like that? Yeah, it's easy to tell yourself that's true.
- [47:00]
B
If you had panic attacks like I did, this would not not happen.
- [47:03]
A
Exactly. There's your problem.
- [47:05]
B
The other part, the other kind of ripple or piece to that is like the urge to control. Right. If the world out there would just you know, adhere to, like, my way of doing things, like, all of this would go away. And the frustration that, you know, people don't behave in the way that you want them to, that amps up the anxiety, but is really fundamentally at its root, like an issue around control or a fear of like. Like letting go or not being in charge.
- [47:34]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. So that was a big element for me. And it was. So stay with me. But this is like, specifically what was wrong with me was that I had this urge to control. And when I couldn't control the outcomes, when things didn't go according to plan, I would have a lot of self blame. Like it was, you know, if I had planned to go to a certain beach on a certain day and I couldn't find parking, that kind of thing would, like completely destroy me. It would completely ruin not just that day, but that week. I would tell this story in my head of I'm a terrible driver parking searcher. Nothing I do ever goes according to plan. So that element for me was like, I mean, in Buddhism they call it the double arrow, where bad things would happen and then I would just hit myself with that second arrow of self blame. And that was a big part of it for me.
- [48:29]
B
Yeah, making the second mistake. You know, it's bad enough that it didn't go well and now I'm gonna beat myself up for it, but within that, there's a narcissism. Like this sense that you're all powerful. Like, you know, like, I just didn't try hard enough. You know, if I had, then that parking spot would have manifested itself or what it is, it's like, it's a complete delusion. And even if your life is terrible and you're, you know, and you're just walking around with this victim mentality, like. Like that is a form of narcissism.
- [49:01]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. A big thing. So part of what I did spoiler is improv to kind of get over some of these things. And a big part of that, which is that makes it so uncomfortable, but also that makes it so helpful is that you can't control anything. Like, you can't control what anyone says. You might have the best idea for a sketch and go in there and wanna do a certain thing, but you're. Your kind of co castmates are gonna have different ideas and you have to find a way to make your idea work with theirs. And that kind of feeling of like, it's not up to me how this goes was like, very new to me.
- [49:41]
B
Yeah. It's an exercise in surrender and a really courageous one at that. I mean, like, improv for anybody, let alone somebody who is kind of like at their core introverted and, and has some neuroticism. Like, it's, that's a, that's really scary. Like, that was a. I mean, in terms of, like, now we're getting way ahead of ourselves. But like, just to finish the thought as a, as a, as an exercise, like, I would have thought, like, well, try something a little bit, you know, less challenging first. You know, that's like deeping. That's like jumping into the deep end of the pool.
- [50:18]
A
Yeah. Although it's funny, like in dc, everyone's like, oh, my God, you did improv. That's so scary. And I can't believe you did that. But out here, everyone. Everyone's doing improv.
- [50:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:28]
A
Doing these like, LA podcasts. Like so.
- [50:31]
B
Right, right. Yeah, everyone is. Everyone in this city has like done an improv class. I know, I know. Well, it's a self selecting audience.
- [50:38]
A
Yeah.
- [50:38]
B
But let's back up a little bit and create a little context here. So essentially what's happening here is you're like, okay, you're leveraging your strength, which is your conscientiousness, and you're applying it to this project. Right. You're taking and maybe even with a degree of, of neurosis. Right. Like, I am going to change my personality and I am going to like, talk to everyone and this is, I'm committing to do it and I'm going to like, write this article about it for the Atlantic. Like, now I'm on the hook. Like, you created accountability around it and you go deep in and you like your game. Like you're trying all these things, like trying to understand if these things in a practical, real life context are going to move the needle for you.
- [51:27]
A
Yes. My only caveat to that is that I was not like this brave, intrepid person who was like, yay to all these activities. Like, probably my first 10 times in improv, I was like, get me out of here. Is this really necessary? Maybe I could just be an extrovert without doing this. Should I call my editor right now?
- [51:49]
B
At what point did the article part of it come in? Was that at the beginning? Were you like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to write about it. I'm interested in the relationship between the writing aspect of it and just the personal journey outside of doing it, because it's going to end up on the Page.
- [52:12]
A
So I always had the assignment the whole time I was doing this. So I can't claim.
- [52:18]
B
So the idea. You pitched the idea.
- [52:21]
A
Yeah. Essentially it was already, Olga's gonna change her or try to. So I always, always had the assignment. So I can't pretend that I, you know, it just worked out miraculously that they were into this. But I will say that I've continued like the book is out, it's done. I don't have to do anything with it anymore. But I will say I've continued a lot of this stuff since the book has come out and since I was done with the book.
- [52:50]
B
That's good to hear because is in the book, basically. You write this article, 2022. Did that come out? The article in the Atlantic?
- [52:58]
A
Yes, I think so.
- [52:59]
B
But then after that came out, then you kind of like, relax for a while. Enough of that.
- [53:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I can quit improving.
- [53:08]
B
You relapsed a little bit.
- [53:10]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:11]
B
And then obviously the book got you re energized around it. But now in the aftermath of the book, there's a longer tale like, you're in.
- [53:21]
A
Yeah. I think I realized that I was never really as introverted as I was. Like, telling myself that I was. Like, I think I had this story about myself that I just don't need any social interaction. And I think I kind of actually need quite a lot. Like, I think I, that's like part of what keeps me going. And so like, whenever I, you know, I, I, I joined like mom's groups and like, I, I did bumble bff like long after I needed to. And like, you know, I, I kind of, of am more of a approach person now than a retreat person.
- [53:57]
B
Yeah, it took the pandemic for me to recognize that within myself, like when it started, I mean, I live kind of out in the middle of nowhere. I like my solitude. I'm happiest when I'm just working on my little projects by myself in a room with the door shut. And so when the pandemic hit, I thought, well, I, I'm built for this. Like, this will be fine, you know, and it took quite a long time to realize, you know, to kind of succumb to the languishing of it all and realize, like, you know, how much I, that I needed social connection in a way that maybe I had never really reckoned with.
- [54:36]
A
Yeah, I think, yeah, a lot of writers were like, oh, there's a pandemic. Like, you know, like, because it's your day to day, life is very insular you know, and I was the same. I would do my interviews and then I would write. And if anyone talked to me while I was writing, I would yell at them. And like, you know, I think it. I kind of realized that I was start. I kind of need other people in order to feel like a person. Like I. And one of the experts that I talked to, Gillian Sandstrom, she lives in the UK or moved to the UK as an American and you know, to teach. And she kind of realized that like, like she didn't feel part of the social fabric because she didn't have any friends and didn't like, talk to anyone most of the time. And so she would just start kind of talking to people on public transportation mostly or like, just when she was out and about and starting conversations with people, honestly, just because, like, after a while you start to feel like, am I in a video game? Like, you know, it can feel very isolating. And so sometimes she just has these, like, little short conversations with people just to, I don't know, feel alive.
- [55:43]
B
What does the science say about when it comes to mutability of personality in terms of what is locked in and genetic and sort of predestined versus aspects of it that truly are variable depending upon how you engage with them?
- [56:03]
A
Great question. So basically nothing is predestined. So I will say that. So 40 to 60%, let's call it, half of your personality is inherited or like. Or genetic, right? It's influenced by your genes. However, like, no one is exactly like their parents, right? Because you get those genes and then they combine in unpredictable ways. Like, you can't always, you know, no kid looks exactly like their parents or acts exactly like their parents. You can't always place like, oh, this is from mom and this is from dad. Our genes kind of combine and unpredictably predictable ways, and then they kind of interact in unpredictable ways with the environment. And the environment is really what exerts a powerful influence on your personality. So if you're, you know, a kid who is a little bit introverted and you spend a ton of time reading and then you, you know, become this like, professor and you end up giving a lot of talks and like, you know, these are all these things are all going to influence your personality kind of as you go along in life. If you happen to smile a lot and you attract a lot of people to, and you make a lot of friends, you know, those friends will kind of influence your personality as well. So I wouldn't say that anything is like, oh, my dad had depression. So I'm gonna have depression, and there's literally nothing I can do. It's more like, okay, you might have a, you know, proclivity toward that, or you might have it be kind of drawn toward that to some extent, but you still have a fair amount of wiggle room, depending on choices that are made for you by your parents and childhood, and then choices that you make yourself, you know, in your early adulthood and throughout adulthood.
- [57:43]
B
I mean, that alone is so empowering to know. Like, it's a very hopeful message, you know, in which we have quite a bit more agency than perhaps we really understand.
- [57:56]
A
Yeah. And I mean, you see this with anyone who's ever, you know, quit drinking or completely changed their friend group or changed their job or gone back to school. You know, sometimes people just have these, like, bursts where they're like, I'm going to do something completely different. And then that. Or. Or, you know, either their personality changes and it leads them into a new situation, or they're placed in a new situation and it then changes their personality.
- [58:21]
B
I often think, though, in those contexts, I wonder, is it. Is it a desire to change your personality that motivates, like, a major life change, like a career change or something like that? Or is it a betrayal of your personality? Like, you're walking around, like, acting in a certain way, but you're like, I'm not happy. I feel like I'm living someone else's life, or, this is not for me. I can feel it. To me, it feels like that's almost like a costume that you're wearing. Like, you've betrayed your personality, and your personality is, like, yearning. Like, the authentic version of you is. Has been muted and repressed and has had enough. Right. And is like, come on. Like, we need to, like, go over here.
- [59:09]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So my therapist, one of the things she would always tell me is, like, that I have a. Like, a true self and an anxious self, and that my anxious self is always, like, undermining the things that I want. So I do think some people do that. Like, they end up in a situation that they assumed was right or that they assumed was what they should be doing. And then, you know, sometimes it's because we don't believe that we can change, that we continue to doing things that are counterproductive or just not a good fit for us or not a good fit anymore. Like, you also change over time. And what was fun when you were 22 is not maybe fun when you're 42.
- [59:48]
B
Have you. Are you familiar with internal Family systems. Like ifs Richard Schwartz. Yeah, I had him in here. Like from his perspective. Like there's. You have all of these person like voices and personalities and, and all of them are trying to perform on your behalf in all these various ways. And they're competing but recognizing them and honoring them. Like, oh, hey, my neurotic five year old self. I know that you're doing that because you feel like you need to protect me and I'm so thankful for that. But it's cool. We're good. You can chill out.
- [60:28]
A
Yeah, I think. Yeah. And there is, yeah, there's an element of personality change to that is like. Is like which side of yourself do you want to present in a certain situation? I talked to one another podcaster who has this like alter ego that she kind of like puts on when she has to do some like business transaction. Like when she has to talk to her agent or something. She's like, and now I'm a like successful businesswoman. And she kind of trots out that side of herself, which is not who she is day to day.
- [61:02]
B
Everything that you talk about in the book and you go through is very action based. You have to do things, you have to get out of your comfort zone. And it reminds me of what Susan David. Do you know Susan David? She's this amazing professor of psychology and her whole thing is like, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I think who was it who said in your book something around confusing for being like, basically like, I can't remember exactly what it was, but basically like being a betrayal of your personality. Like if it feels uncomfortable, like you shouldn't do it because I'm not the kind of person that does that kind of thing and disabusing people of that. Like, if you want to grow, change, evolve and engender your life with more fulfillment and meaning, it demands that you get out of your comfort zone. So don't confuse that with something else.
- [62:02]
A
Yeah. I mean, look, everything that you do that's new is gonna feel uncomfortable the first time you do it. I mean, nobody who has a baby goes home from the hospital that first day and is like, I feel totally at ease with this. I feel confident I know exactly what to do with this Bab. I feel like a natural born parent. Like everyone is like a total nervous wreck. Can't believe they were allowed to leave the hospital with a baby. Is like googling how many ounces at what time. Anything you do initially is gonna feel very, very uncomfortable. The first, like I said, 1015 times I did improv. It was extremely uncomfortable. And I think part of it is just like if you have a value or a goal that's on the other side of that discomfort, you can't let the discomfort stop you. You have to just kind of of persevere a little bit until it becomes more comfortable. You know, we see this like most explicitly and literally with exercise where like the first time you run it's like super uncomfortable and you're like, why do people do this? And then you get good at running and suddenly it's like glorious and euphoric. That happens with, you know, mental things, attitudinal things too.
- [63:14]
B
I found it in my notes. It was, it was Sonia. She said, just because it doesn't feel natural or comfortable doesn't mean it's not authentic.
- [63:22]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And authentic, like the way we think, like people think of authenticity is just what feels good to me. Right. And so I would caution against letting that be your guide to everything you do, because not everything that feels good to you is the best thing to be doing at the time. And not everything that's healthy or interesting or that's going to help you grow is going to feel good at first.
- [63:48]
B
In terms of extroversion versus introversion, if you're, you're introverted and you're perfectly happy and your life is wonderful and fulfilled, like, fantastic, keep doing what you're doing. Right. But if you are feeling lonely or disconnected and yearning for a little bit more connection with other people, here's the discomfort that you're going to have to weather. It's pretty obvious, like you're going to have to put yourself in social situations that maybe you rather wouldn't that are going to be uncomfortable. And you kind of walk through that, that you. All that we mentioned improv earlier, like, that was a huge, to me, that's like a huge leap for somebody who's prone to introversion. But it feels like that map, like, is pretty self evident. But when it comes to neuroticism, like, okay, how do I. What are the, what are the contrary actions that I need to take here?
- [64:42]
A
Yeah. So what anxious people do, that is their reflexive action is to worry. So it's their behavior that they use to cope with the anxiety. If I worry enough, it won't happen. So kind of what the research kind of says that you should do if you have this tendency toward worry is either to limit the worrying to like a worry period. So set aside five minutes and write down everything you're worried about. And then. And just try to stop. Of course, like, anxious people aren't good at stopping thinking. So what I kind of like that I got from Tracy Dennis Tiwari, which is a strategy that has worked for me a little bit, is, okay, write down all your worries. Write down everything bad that could happen, but also write down everything good that could happen. Because in reality, like, most things in life have positive and negative elements. You know, something really frightening or terrible will occur, but then, you know, you'll either find a way out of it, or you will gain something from it, from it. Or maybe it just won't be that bad. You know, maybe you'll buy a new house and it won't have, like, the XYZ that you were looking for, but it ended up having a lot more space or it was in a cool neighborhood or, you know, positive outcomes are also possible. And I think that is something that I and a lot of other neurotic people tend to lose sight of when we're really in a worry spiral. So that's like kind of your opposite action for that coping behavior of worry. The other things I've heard of for people who kind of struggle more with, like, the panic side of anxiety, so more like panic attacks, is to actually try to lean into the sensations of panic. So including things like breathing through a straw, you know, getting your heart pumping really fast, and just noticing that, like, these sensations are maybe a little unpleasant, but they actually don't hurt you. Like, you're not gonna die from your heart beating fast or from hyperventilating that panic attacks aren't dangerous. A lot of what is painful about neuroticism is that you. You are kind of afraid of your feelings. You're afraid of your neuroticism. And so part of what the kind of therapy around this involves is, like, making you less afraid of the anxiety. So even if it comes, you're not. You're not panicking because you're anxious.
- [67:12]
B
I have people in my life that I'm close with that are prone to this sort of thing, even to the extent that it's all consuming and it's being fueled by news and politics and global events and just this proclivity for future tripping on the disaster that is obviously just around the bend. And it's almost like a fuel source that makes them feel alive and kind of an addiction. Right. It's energizing. I suppose, on some level it's destructive, but it's very difficult to. I'm powerless. I feel like. Like, until someone like, that has Their own kind of reckoning. Like it doesn't matter what you say to them. Like, hey, you know, maybe you should breathe out of a straw or do any of these things. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's very difficult to get somebody to take that leap and try something different.
- [68:20]
A
Yeah. And I mean. Yeah. Because those spirals can feel almost like very safe. Right. Like when I. Yeah. When I really get going on a worry spiral, it can almost feel like more comfortable than not worrying. Because you think that by worrying you can prevent things from happening.
- [68:41]
B
Or maybe you're smarter than everyone else because you can see what everyone else can't see. If they could see what you see.
- [68:47]
A
Yeah. And I would tell myself, well, I've always seen everything bad coming, but of course I haven't. I didn't see Trump coming. There's a ton of stuff that I haven't seen coming in my life. And. Yeah, but I definitely sympathize with the, I guess, desire to just keep thinking about bad things because you think that that will keep them at bay.
- [69:11]
B
I take it that you started doing these things. What are some of the other things that you did and how effective have they been? And what has stayed with you or stuck that has led to you being less neurotic?
- [69:27]
A
So the main thing that I did was this class called mbsr, which is a meditation class. It's called Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. And in studies it's been proven to work about as well as Lexapro. And it's kind of simple when you describe it. It's 45 minutes a day of mindful meditation. And then every week there's a zoom or in person gathering where they kind of do a PowerPoint presentation of like Buddhism for Dummies. Like very, very basic broken down concepts from Buddhism that could be applied for stressful situations. The meditation was extremely difficult for me. It's very hard to focus on your breath, focus on anything but worrying for someone like me. So that was, I think, helpful to an extent. But actually part of it, the part of it that I think was more helpful for me was the Buddhism for Dummies part. Like, I think I just needed someone to come at me with like aphorisms at the right time when I was truly desperate. And there was something about the shared setting and all of us kind of sharing our struggles and the teacher kind of telling you Buddhism's answer to these struggles that, you know, has existed for many centuries. It was kind of like a relief. Or it was, I don't believe in God. But I. People who are like, let go and let God. I kind of like let go and let the universe a little bit. I don't know how, how else to describe it, but it was, it was just like a little bit of a. You don't have to be in charge of everything. Working out perfectly was like the overarching message of that class. And that to me was like, I was like, okay, like, you know what I mean?
- [71:16]
B
Like, it's not up to you. Yeah, why are you carrying this on your shoulders? Yeah, why don't you just, you know, drop the rock and surrender a little bit? This is an ad by BetterHelp. We live in an age of infinite information, like this endless scroll of opinions on every possible issue and protocols to optimize every single aspect of life. But information presupposes neither with wisdom or truth, because for that you really need more. Especially when it comes to the unique circumstances of your life and the mental well being required to navigate it. Well, this is where real human beings come in. What we need is human experience and human empathy. Which is why talking to a real, actual therapist is invaluable. Not because necessarily anything's real wrong, but because having a trained professional helps you navigate your specific patterns, your challenges. And this is where real transformation happens. I personally have seen therapy work wonders in my own life and in countless people that I've interviewed. As a matter of fact, it came up today like a thousand times in an interview I just recorded. But the point is that therapy can be an incredible tool to learn new tools like setting boundaries or developing emotional resilience to better show up as your best self. BetterHelp makes this accessible. With over 30,000 therapists, you can connect at the click of a button, not the right fit switch anytime. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experience. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Right now, our listeners can get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com richroll that's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com richroll this episode is brought to you by Whoop. Whoop is the only wearable that turns your health and fitness data into personalized guidance. Leveraging everything from resting heart rate, HRV sleep stages and efficiency and reach real time stress levels to inform how you train, work and recover so you can live better. And now the all new Whoop is here. And the recent upgrades are dramatic. In addition to the Sensor now being 7% smaller, the battery life now extends to a remarkable 14 days. The new Healthspan feature shows how your daily habits impact your pace of aging. And hormonal insights provide personalized guidance throughout your cycle or pregnancy. And the new WHOOP MG even boasts a heart rate screener with on demand ECG reading, so you can monitor your heart anytime and share your results with your doctor. It's the only wearable that offers a complete view of your body, not just for tracking, but for insights that shape your decisions about your health, especially when recovery matters most. And you can join now at join whoop.com roll that's join dot whoop W-H-O-O-P.com roll there's so much overlap throughout the entire book with how 12 step works. It's like so much, you know, it's like, and in terms of what you just shared, you know, a lot of people come in to the program with very complicated opinions and emotions and histories with religion, faith, spirituality, et cetera. But fundamentally, it is a spiritual program, but it's non, it's so non denominational that you get to call God whatever you want or, you know, higher power, the universe, or even just the collective group of people that between and betwixt them, you know, share a wisdom that you don't have, like, that's a power greater than you. And in this Buddhism app community, like, there was a shared wisdom there that you were able to tap into, but fundamentally it's about like, letting go. Like neuroticism is about this clutch, right? And when you realize, like, I'm not in control here, like there's, there's more going on that I like, like humbling yourself that you're not all powerful is this cathartic relief.
- [75:45]
A
Yeah, it really was like that for me. One of the things, one of the little aphorisms that I came across that I keep coming back to in the course of researching that chapter was actually from David Axelrod, the Democratic strategist. I'm very D.C. and he was kind of describing what it's like to work really hard on a political campaign. And then, you know, you're working like 100 hours a week, you're doing everything you can to get your guy elected. And then come election day, like, you have no control, you know, and, you know, you could lose in a huge way and you have no say in the matter. And it's, you know, it is what it is. And he, the way what he tells himself is all we can do is everything we can do essentially just means, like, you can push really, really hard, you can try hard, but then you ultimately have to let go. You cannot control the outco and you have to just be okay with that. And that for me has been really helpful in a lot of ways. You know, book launch, parenting, just day to day life. Like, you can set yourself up for success, you can set your kid up for success, and then you just have to take your hands off the wheel because you can't control everything.
- [77:01]
B
Not only can you not control everything, I mean, Olga, what do you honestly think that you can control?
- [77:08]
A
So I, going into to this, I thought, I basically thought that if people were smart, they could basically make their lives run flawlessly. And that when my life didn't run flawlessly, it was because I wasn't being smart. That was like my theory that I had, which is not correct.
- [77:34]
B
But I'll still, I'm going to pressure you. I'm going to keep with this. Like, what do you think you have control over?
- [77:41]
A
I mean, God, what do I have control over? Like the pants that I put on every morning. I don't know. Like, I have.
- [77:48]
B
No, I think, I think meditation has been very helpful to me in, in helping me really, really get like, really understand that truly the only thing I have control over is my behavior. Like how I respond to externalities. And everything is an externality that I can't control. Like, I can, I can't even necessarily control what my mind is doing all the time. Like it has, it's running its own thing often. And the more I meditate, the more agency I feel I have over that. But it's really just what is my behavior? Like, how am I showing up in the world right now? You know, I can't even control, you know, what's going to happen a moment from now. Maybe you'll storm out of here. Like, you know, who knows? You know what I mean?
- [78:37]
A
How dare you ask.
- [78:38]
B
But there's a, there's a piece in that, but also like a focus. Like, okay, well now that I know that and I know that when I behave in this way, I'm setting myself up for a higher possibility that X, Y and Z might happen. But if I comport myself in these other ways that all these smart people who lived before me seem to say, lead you towards a, you know, a better life, like, and I do that consistently over time. My experience is that my life gets better, but it's better because I'm not attempting to get involved in controlling anything else outside of that.
- [79:20]
A
Yeah, I think, I think that's really Smart. Something that it has done for me is to make me more aware of anxious spirals and kind of just wave at them as they go by, if that makes sense. Like, I. Like, I. I can't emphasize enough how.
- [79:39]
B
Much I was being more neutral about that.
- [79:41]
A
Yes. Like, I was. I was hitting myself with not just the double arrow, but the triple arrow and the. The fourth and fifth. Like, I was hitting myself with so many arrows. Because, like. Okay, I will give you a very, very recent example. Yesterday we drove down to Laguna beach to hang out with a friend of mine, and we had that situation. The parking was challenging. The beach we initially had in mind, like, the swell was too big and we weren't gonna be able to get in the water, so we had to change locations. And it was like, kind of a production. And the whole time I was like. It kept popping up. Like, this little gopher was like, your friend is mad at you for not making this unfold perfectly. Like, your friend, she's mad at you. Like, how dare you not control the temperature of the water? This whole. The parking, like, the Laguna beach layout. And I. It was very real to me in the moment. I was like, oh, my God, she's mad. She's mad. I need to resolve this, like, very quickly so she won't get mad. And I kind of, like. I think it was probably from my Buddhism kind of. Or, I don't know, therapy, some combination of all the stuff I did, I was kind of like, this is so silly. Like, she's not mad. If she looks grumpy, it's probably just. Cause, like, we're all kind of grumpy. Cause this isn't, like, going super well, like, you know, or like, and as soon as we get in the water, we'll feel fine. It was. But that kind of moment of clarity, of you're kind of anxiously spiraling, and that's okay. But you don't have to buy into this spiral and try to fix things just because it's there.
- [81:13]
B
Yeah. Noticing it as it's happening from a distance, as opposed to indulging it and self identifying with it.
- [81:22]
A
Yeah. And also not beating myself up. Up for the spiral. It's like, okay, you're gonna have a spiral, because that's kind of what you do.
- [81:29]
B
This is where curiosity comes in, which is a big piece here. Right. Talk about your relationship with curiosity.
- [81:37]
A
So Jud Brewer is the curiosity guy. And his kind of method for treating neuroticism is to get curious about its effect in your body. And this could not be less Relatable to me at the start of my project, I. I have, like, basically no connection to my body or I started out that way. Like, I would end up with, like, in PT with, like, all these, like, cramps in my shoulders and things and have, like, no idea where they came from after a stressful week, you know, I would. Yeah, I would. Like, I also am, like, one of those people who bumps into things because I just am not very aware of where I am.
- [82:18]
B
Just all up in your head all the time.
- [82:21]
A
So he's like, pay attention to how anxiety feels in your body. And I was like, it's like. That's like saying, like, pay attention to the purple elephant in the room or something. You know, it's like, what are you talking about? There's no such thing.
- [82:31]
B
But just asking that question illustrates the detachment that you're detached from your physical being.
- [82:38]
A
Yeah. And I really found that it was a good way, in particular with panic attacks, which is not my, like, main issue, but when I do have them, that, again, just taking a second and thinking, like, oh, wow, my heart's beating really fast. Like, huh, My. Like, you know, my breath is like. You know, I'm breathing pretty deeply. To me, that was a good way of breaking out of the panic attack and kind of once again, just getting a little bit friendlier with it, maybe, or just less like, oh, my God, I can't have a panic attack right now. You know, I'm in the middle of work or I'm in the middle of XYZ Z. This happens to me when I'm. Sometimes when I'm giving a big talk in front of an audience. I still occasionally have, like, my heart, like, pounds in my chest, and I start to think that people can hear it somehow. And so previously, my response to this was to, like, yell at myself internally and say, like, stop pounding. Stop. Like, you know, chill out, heart. And of course, that does not make your heart chill out. So now I'm just like, huh, There it is again. It's pounding. It's going really fast. I have a fast heart rate because I'm getting ready to give this talk. And that's okay. That's part of what happens when I give talks and that it just kind of. I don't know, it lets you take a step back from whatever's happening and whatever the anxious sensations are.
- [84:09]
B
Yeah, the mindfulness, the awareness that comes with the practice of meditation, that gives you just that extra space, like that moment where you are presented with a choice of how to respond rather than just Reflexively reacting. That becomes huge over time. Are you doing the loving kindness meditation?
- [84:33]
A
Meditation?
- [84:35]
B
You called Dan Harris a pussy.
- [84:36]
A
I know he was kind of mad at me, but then I think he got over it.
- [84:42]
B
I heard the podcast that you did with him. He was actually like, I loved it.
- [84:46]
A
So Dan's book helped me so much because he started out as an anxious journalist who didn't believe in meditation and hated all this stuff.
- [84:55]
B
He could be your higher power.
- [84:57]
A
Yeah. I kind of needed someone, like. Because some of the stuff that I was reading when I was trying to get into meditation was too esoteric, and it was for people who were already very Zen, and I needed someone who was not Zen and moved in that direction. So Dan's book was really helpful to me. 10% happier. Yeah. I don't do the loving kindness explicitly anymore. I have to be honest. I don't play the tape and sit there and do it. I try to just sort of have it. I was so not loving or kind to myself before that. Even just in the moment, being like, you made a mistake. It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes. That's huge progress for me. That's like night and day. But I don't do it actively anymore.
- [85:47]
B
On some level, your message is the same. It's like a 10% happier message. It's like you're not. Not an entirely different person, but you're probably 10% happier than you were before you launched into this experiment.
- [86:04]
A
Yeah. I mean, even small changes on these. I mean, I think I moved more than 10% on my traits that I was working on, you know? Cause I was, like, doing everything I could.
- [86:14]
B
All right. And taking the test. You actually have the stats. Yeah, I'm more than 10%.
- [86:19]
A
Yeah.
- [86:20]
B
You're beating Dan.
- [86:21]
A
I know. I'm so much better than him.
- [86:23]
B
He's right. 20% happier.
- [86:27]
A
Yeah.
- [86:27]
B
20% happier.
- [86:28]
A
Take that.
- [86:29]
B
Fuck that guy.
- [86:31]
A
Yeah. But it is. I mean, no one is ever gonna feel like, oh, I'm a completely different person. I'm completely unrecognizable. Now you are just gonna feel like you're up for more challenges. You feel more capable of taking a new type of job. Maybe you feel okay facing the day without alcohol. Alcohol. You. You know. Yeah. Meditation is maybe an all right idea. You know, it's all. It's all going to be things like this. I actually did. I made friends, like, by doing the book. And that's like. I mean, that was huge for me. I hadn't made a new friend in years. Yeah. Yeah. My friend Alex.
- [87:11]
B
Yeah. I'M like, sad to hear that, but happy that.
- [87:13]
A
That I stopped doing that. Yeah.
- [87:16]
B
A lot of this is, again, back to the kind of AA framework. There's a lot of fake it till you make it act as if, which brings up this idea of authenticity. Okay, I'm going to do this thing. If I want to be a sociable person who's fun to talk to at a party, then I have to act as if I'm somebody who does that. Right. And that's deeply uncomfortable and probably feels deeply inauthentic. So how do you reconcile that sense of inauthentic? We kind of talked about it earlier. But that sense of inauthenticity with the aspiration.
- [88:01]
A
Yeah, I guess I personally just don't put a ton of stock in authenticity. I just don't because. Because we're all acting so differently all the time.
- [88:12]
B
That idea of multiple authenticities.
- [88:14]
A
Yeah, there's some. Yeah. So, yeah, I write that we all have multiple authenticities, but I don't. So when I was pregnant, my mom was like, I can't imagine you as a mother. And I was like, oh, my God, that's scary. Cause that was one of the big fears that I had, that I was not the sort of person who could be a mom.
- [88:39]
B
What did she mean by that?
- [88:41]
A
She just thought that I didn't have the personality of, like, what you think of as a mom.
- [88:46]
B
Like, the nurturing.
- [88:47]
A
Yeah. Like, I wasn't, like, a cuddly, nurturing, like, kind of person. And I was like, maybe she's right. Like, maybe I don't have it in me to be a mom. I'm not. I don't have the right personality. And what I kind of realized and like, this. My book was already done, and I had my kid, and that wasn't an experiment. But I. I was like, your kid brings it out in you. Like, you become like, this nurturing, like, this. The biggest, like, hard ass, hard charging, you know, executive lady. You know, take no prisoners. Like, girl boss is gonna, like, come home and, like, coo and sing baby beluga. Cause, like, you realize you rise to the occasion when you have these goals in your life that are really important to you. And I'm probably not like, an Instagram mom. Like, I probably, probably, you know, I don't make homemade goldfish crackers for him or whatever. But I, like, I think I'm a good mom, and I think I'm nurturing and cuddly. It's just that. And I think that's authentic. I think that's Authentically me. It just wasn't before I had this. This goal of being a good mom.
- [89:50]
B
What is the most surprising experience that you've had by, you know, I'm going to put on a new hat, and it doesn't feel like it fits, but I'm just going to keep wearing it until it feels like it's mine. Right. Only to wake up later and be like, oh, this is my hat. You know, like, I don't even think about it anymore. Like, I am different in this way.
- [90:14]
A
Definitely the extroversion element. I. If I'm being honest, I thought it would be a little going through the motions. Y. Like, I thought I would. Okay, I'm gonna do improv. I'm gonna do. You know, I'm gonna make friends and, like, I'll stop talking to them as soon as the book is.
- [90:31]
B
As soon as I turn this in, then I can go back and shut the door on everyone.
- [90:36]
A
Go back to watching my Netflix shows. And that really, like, didn't happen. Like, I kind of realized that I. I have this desire to connect with people. I have a desire to meet more people. Like, I haven't met all the people that I'll ever meet. You know, in. In college. Like, I. Yeah, I. I kind of realized that I. I need to. I'm someone who needs to reach out to people, to connect with people and share experiences, and it makes my life better. It's not just like, I have to check this box because it's like eating my broccoli. It's something to look forward to. It's something to help me feel more stable.
- [91:14]
B
Do you think? Because after turning the initial article in, and then I kind of jokingly said relapse. But you did kind of go back to your old patterns and then did that create a moment of clarity where you're like, oh, I thought I could just go back. And now I'm back, back less happier than I was when I was doing those things that I so deeply didn't want to do.
- [91:38]
A
Yeah. Maybe it was the quote, unquote, relapse. I mean, I was drinking a lot during that time, so in a way.
- [91:45]
B
All right, well, so you, like, you have a co founding variable in there.
- [91:48]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think it was also just like, I did feel happier. Like, everything that I did, all the personality traits that I changed involve an element of, like, the person generally feels better afterward. Like, even introverts who are told to go behave like extroverts for a few minutes, then they go back and the researchers ask them like, how do you feel? And they're like, I feel great. I feel awesome. Sometimes they even say I feel more true to myself than I did before, which is kind of funny when it comes to authenticity. But, yeah, I noticed the benefits for me, and I noticed that the anxiety was. Wasn't doing as much for me as I thought. Like, I can still achieve. Like, I still wrote a book. I still.
- [92:35]
B
I mean, that's huge to be like, I don't need that thing that I thought that I needed. In fact, it was holding me back.
- [92:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's. It's writing the to do list, you know, a hundred times, as opposed to one time. Like, you only really need that one time. You only need to plan. You don't need to worry about the plans or worry, worry, you know, incessantly about things going wrong. And to me, that was kind of a big breakthrough. And honestly, like, gives me space to do more stuff because I'm not trapped in worry cycles all the time.
- [93:07]
B
Yeah, you mentioned earlier, like, volunteering at the soup kitchen. So much of worry and anxiety is a form of self obsession. And the antidote to that is to, like, go help somebody else. Like, invest yourself in something bigger than you, to be of service in whatever way. Like, it's. Again, it's another like, AA thing. Like, if you just, if you want to break the cycle of, you know, this pattern that you're in, turn your gaze outward on somebody who could actually benefit from you showing up for them, even if it's in a small way. Did that come up in the research or what has been your experience with playing around with that?
- [93:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, all the studies say that, like, volunteering, you know, feels like making. I don't know, it depends on what study you read. But it's like hundreds of thousands of dollars more a year, you know, if you volunteer for a certain number of hours. And I think it is because of that, because it is very easy to become self obsessed, especially if you're a creative person. Like, a lot of us, like, have succeeded kind of because we are self obsessed. We're, like, gonna move to the place that gives us the most opportunities and, like, you know, work a million hours and, like, do whatever it takes. And like, you're always thinking about yourself and your career and what's next. And that has a downside, which is you're always worrying about your career and what's next. And it, I think it is true that, like, connecting with other people, sharing your struggles, helping other people, it does help break that self Obsession a little bit. And it just makes your inner weather balmier, as Dan likes to say. One of the things that I noticed in the agreeableness chapter is that every single thing I did involved other people. And less the journalistic what did you know and when did you know it, but more just sharing experiences, kind of like they do in aa and sharing your story, relating to one another, giving each other advice, you know, what have you. I honestly think that was like, the biggest thing that boosted my agreeableness was like, being in community with so many different groups of people, because I just don't really do that. Like, I don't.
- [95:35]
B
Their experience.
- [95:35]
A
Yeah. Like, I don't go to church.
- [95:37]
B
You wrote an AA book and you didn't even know it. Have you ever been to an AA meeting?
- [95:41]
A
I have. For reporting. Yeah. And then, like, when I was really. When I lived in la, in grad school, I was really lonely, and I was like, maybe I should join aa, except I wasn't, like, addicted to alcohol.
- [95:51]
B
So I was like, that's like. You're like, what's her name in fight club? Who goes to all the. All the meetings, you know, because she's lonely, but she doesn't have any of the problems.
- [96:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah, that would be me. I did talk to a lot of people in recovery for the book, though. Yeah.
- [96:11]
B
There's another adage that I'm. That I love. There's so many, like, stupid phrases, but one that I really like is mood follows action. And it goes back to this idea that it's action based. Like, if you come into AA and choose your malfunction, like, okay, you have a problem with drinking or drugs, you go in, you can't imagine what it like getting a week sober or whatever. But you just have to. To, like, you know, once, one day at a time, one hour at a time. Like, do what somebody who doesn't drink or use does. You know, act as if. And whatever sense of discomfort that you have around it, the mood that you want to inhabit is on the other side of, like, taking the action you don't want to take.
- [97:04]
A
Yeah.
- [97:05]
B
And we have this idea like, oh, I'll do it when I. I feel inspired to do it. But of course, you never do it. Right. I'll go to improv when I feel like improving.
- [97:16]
A
It's like, no, you're never gonna feel that way. Yeah. And that's. Behavioral activation theory is a big part of this. And that just is like, you go out and do the thing, and then mood follows action that you will Feel a certain way after you've done it. And so that's really a lot of what personality change involves. Because you aren't ever going to feel like impro. You're not ever gonna feel like quitting drinking. I mean, and some of them were kind of interesting. Cause I talked to one, this didn't make it into the book, but I talked to one guy who quit drinking. And then it, like, set off this, like, positive chain reaction of other things he wanted to change. And then he actually ended up changing his whole career. He was a lawyer and he's now a therapist or in school to be a therapist. But it was like, the drinking was like, I don't know, the thing, like, once he got past that discomfort, it was like all these other things were like, suddenly more possible.
- [98:12]
B
Oh, I could do that thing. I never thought I could do. Like, it's a. Anytime you take those actions, no matter how small, they're esteem building and they give you a greater sense of empowerment that you can use in other areas of your life. That's the beautiful thing about it. They're transferable, I guess.
- [98:31]
A
Yes.
- [98:31]
B
Right.
- [98:32]
A
Yeah.
- [98:32]
B
But there is a bit of a weird conflict here that I guess is sort of Buddhist. Like, there's a self acceptance piece. Like, you have to accept, you have to sort of see yourself clearly, you know, to identify those patterns, to, you know, understand, like, the behaviors that aren't serving you, like, with clear eyes, and not judge yourself for that, but, like, truly accept yourself for that while also accepting that there needs to be things, things that need to change in order for you to feel as happy and as fulfilled as, you know, that you can be.
- [99:07]
A
Yeah, I still. I kind of wish this was not called personality. I wish it was called, like, something else that.
- [99:14]
B
Well, that's why I was like, where does my mindset, attitude, personality choice, like, all of these things, it is like, it's sort of like we're trying to put a hard science label on something that really resists it.
- [99:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I guess the way that I. I, like, settled this and like, everyone's gonna settle it a different way is that I'm just like, not that attached to my personality. Like, I. I accept myself, like, my inner core being like, the Olga who's out in the world trying to do things. But I, I'm not like. And you have to do it by being an introvert and like. Or by being super neurotic. Like, I, I kind of. I'm very loosely attached to the traits that I use to get there, basically. And for me, that's like, what feels healthiest. But I feel like everyone else comes to a different way to reconcile those two.
- [100:05]
B
What's the thing that you're still holding onto? Like, when you talk to your therapist and you're like, okay, you're still doing that. How's that working out?
- [100:13]
A
Oh, great question.
- [100:14]
B
Like, the cha. Like the thing that you just really still don't want to release your grip on, even though you know it's not.
- [100:21]
A
Not good. Yeah, I still. Okay, so we have a kid now, and he has to meet milestones. And milestones are, like, straight A student.
- [100:36]
B
Like, how old is he?
- [100:37]
A
Like, a fodder. So he's 16 months. But, you know, they have, like, are they rolling over? Are they blah, blah, blah. Are they blah. So he, like, when he doesn't meet the milestones, I lose it. I, like, completely. Like, I call a pediatrician, like, 4,000 times. I, like, make him all these appointments. He's already in all these different therapies to try to meet the milestones. He's in occupational therapy even though he's a baby. I get obsessive about the milestones and thinking that I can make the milestones happen faster or on a certain timeline. So I've been trying to realize that the milestones may happen when they happen and that I don't have perfect control over them.
- [101:20]
B
I think this is a good, really, really big piece. I think this is really important. I just know for myself, I have four kids. They're all older now. Like, our youngest is 17. Oldest is. Is 30. You talk in the book about blaming your parents. Like, we look at our parents and we want to, like, point the finger, oh, I'm this way because of them, or whatever. And there's an unhealthy aspect to that. Like, we have to take responsibility and agency for ourselves. But. But also we. We should recognize that we've inherited. Inherited, you know, traits and patterns as a result of our upbringing. And we all have unhealthy versions of those baked into ourselves as a result of whatever experiences, you know, the environment in which we were raised or, you know, I think. I think the world word, like childhood trauma is sort of thrown around a little too cavalierly. But, you know, nobody had a perfect childhood. And so there's residue of that within all of us that and shows up in our behavior patterns when we're adults. And I think that we have a responsibility to transcend those for ourselves, of course, but really for our children. Like, are you going to perpetuate this generational Pattern that could be traced back how far back into your family tree, or are you going to arrest. Rest it in its tracks so that your child doesn't have to not only inherit that pattern, but have to kind of suffer the consequences of you behaving like that in their presence. And that's the huge. For me, that's the whole thing with parenting.
- [103:01]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [103:02]
B
And so this is, like. This is your Mount Everest, I think.
- [103:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Being a cycle breaker is challenging.
- [103:11]
B
And then you do all this work, and then you're. You're tired and under duress, and then suddenly you're, like, doing the thing. You know, you behave in the way you promised that you wouldn't. It's so deeply baked into us.
- [103:23]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think he was. I mean, it was like, just recently, we started out, like, we're gonna be gentle parents. We're never gonna yell at him, and we're never gonna punish him, like, in any way. We're gonna be super nice. He started doing this thing where he would pull the childproof cover out of the socket, and then to, like, double up on the danger, he would put that in his mouth, which is a chok. And then he would try to stick his finger in the socket. And I'm triple threat, constantly keeping him from doing this. Like, please, stop, stop, stop. No, no, no. Let's play with something else. Like, you're, like, sleep deprived trying to keep a toddler from doing this thing. So I pull him away from it. He crawls back over and does it again, and I let it rip. I was like, what did I just fucking say? And I realized I was like, oh, that's a voice from my past. What did I just fucking say?
- [104:15]
B
Judd says.
- [104:18]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, why did I. Why did I reach for that phrasing? But it is. It's like, they do test you, and they test, like, what is your instinctual reaction to difficulty? And, like, you know, he doesn't know. He's like, oh, this is cool.
- [104:35]
B
That's why. That's why our children are our teachers, because they hold this mirror up to the truth of, like, who you are. You know what I mean?
- [104:42]
A
Yeah.
- [104:43]
B
And what a gift you're in a position to give your son because you did all this work, you know, and you took it really seriously, and you made all of these changes. Like, that is an incredible blessing that almost no one does. It's really an incredible act of service for your child. I mean, to the world. Also, to, like, here's what I learned. Have at it. Or whatever. But it's an amazing thing, I think.
- [105:12]
A
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I hope it works out. Maybe it was all for him and like, I don't know if he has a better childhood because of it, then it was worth it.
- [105:21]
B
Yeah. It's like when you're a new parent, you're like, here's how it's gonna go. You're gonna be like this. And it's like, I'm always like, oh, yeah, okay, well check in. I'll see you in a couple years. Like, let me know how that's going.
- [105:31]
A
Only organic stuff.
- [105:32]
B
I mean, this will test, you know, all of your control issues, you know, every idea that you have about how you know who this person is gonna be and what they're gonna do and how you're gonna, you know, parent them through it. Like, you know, you get really tested on that stuff.
- [105:46]
A
Yeah.
- [105:46]
B
For your growth and evolution.
- [105:48]
A
Right, right, right. Yeah. I have tried to resist, like, you know, know, I know people are like, I'm gonna have kids and they're gonna be pro tennis players just like me. And I'm like, I would avoid putting that out there because if they get a whiff that you want them to be a pro tennis player, they're gonna like, do the opposite also.
- [106:05]
B
Like, why do you need them to be like, what is missing inside of you that that's so important to you that, that they need to be that, like, what's unfulfilled in you that you need them to fill it for you?
- [106:15]
A
Yeah.
- [106:15]
B
Like, that's, that's not great.
- [106:17]
A
Yeah. I don't know. We're, we're trying really hard to avoid, like, putting our stuff on him.
- [106:22]
B
Yeah, it's hard. You know, it's hard. And I just, I just think like, any change, even, you know, no matter how small, is just a really difficult thing that I think people make sound easy and it's not. But in your work, in your personal experience, like for the person who, you know, is stuck or is like, I can't get out of this, like, self defeating feeding loop, or I just constantly get in my way or I am neurotic or I'm, you know, I'm terrified of putting myself in, in, in the mildest of social situations. Like, what are some of the tools that you learn that you practice or, or that some of these experts have advocated for that can, can get these people, you know, off the couch or in the world and, and putting this stuff into emotion?
- [107:17]
A
I will give a concrete tip and then a more esoteric tip. Concrete Tip. If you are someone who has trouble, like, let's say you're like, okay, I just moved to a new city. I need to meet people. I am having trouble meeting people. I would just sign up for an activity that recurs regularly and that you don't have to organize because it's always going to be there whether you show up or not. But it would be better if you showed up. So, like, you've already committed to bring the snacks or you've committed to whatever, tennis, and they need someone to play doubles. Like, I. It's. It's too hard for introverts to go from couch to, like, flourishing social life. We need something to, like, push us out of the house. And, you know, it can be a meetup, it can be a book club, it can be anything where you're not texting people. Let's get together Wednesday, let's get together Thursday, whatever it is. So that's my specific tip. I would say, like, more broadly, this comes from Stephen Hayes and is like, kind of toward the end of the book. But I would just think about, like, your values and what you, like, want in life. I would go back to that definition of personality from Nathan Hudson and the other change researchers and think about, like, you know, what is it that you want? Like, what does life look like when you're on your deathbed or before you're on your deathbed? What does life look like in middle age? And you know, what's keeping you from doing that? For me, a big part of. I, like, knew I wanted an adult child late in life. And the only way to have an adult child is, of course, to have a baby child. But I was so anxious about becoming a parent. That was a huge obstacle for me. And so you really have to think about connecting your behavior to your broader goals and your broader values, because that's the only thing that's going to motivate you to actually do all this stuff, which is hard day to day.
- [109:18]
B
It gets further complicated when you have an inner monologue telling you that you're undeserving of these things or you're not good enough. I think a lot of people have that. I suffer from that from time to time. That's constantly defeating you from that impulse to take that first step. Action.
- [109:40]
A
Yeah, it can be tough. I talked to one person, Zach Hambrick, who. His parents were, like, dropping him off at college and they were like, we'll probably be picking you up soon because you're gonna fail out. And like, talk about inner monologue. Like, he did he had this monologue that he's not good at school, he's not academic. And what worked for him and for a lot of other people is actually like, finding someone else who's kind of like that, who's kind of at your same level and, like, partnering with them to do whatever it is that you want to do. Like, there's this element of, like, healthy peer pressure that, like, you learn strategies from one another. You kind of. You motivate one another, give each other ideas, and, you know, it won't work if it's someone that you're. Is, like, falling far behind you. And it won't work if it's someone who's, like, so far ahead of you that you. You don't know how they got there. A lot of times I think of mentorship as, like, I need to pick, you know, someone amazing. Like, you know, and it really. It can be someone who's kind of at your same level, like, as long as they're dedicated to the same goal. So that's what he did. He found, like, a study buddy. They went through college together, and he's. He's actually like a tenured psychology professor now.
- [110:50]
B
Wow.
- [110:51]
A
Going from, like, making Ds. I don't know.
- [110:55]
B
You're such a high agency person and, you know, thinking about your. Your backstory, which we didn't even really talk about. I mean, I mean, you bounced around. You grew up in, like, Odessa, Texas. Right? Essentially Midland. Yeah. Friday Night Lights territory. Daughter of Russian immigrants and really had to make your way in the world to become this person. And you did, and it's something to be proud of. But when I think about you, I'm like, oh, well, this is a person who, when they put their mind to something, they make it happen. Right. So. So why should it be any different when it comes to personality change? You know? But then you read the stories in here and you're like, oh, my gosh, she's so human, you know, like, she has all the fears and frailties that we all harbor secretly or publicly. But I am curious about the person who does, who. Who is living a life in which they don't feel like their actions matter. You know, like, they feel disenfranchised or disconnected and things haven't worked out. Like, they don't have that track record to say, like, oh, I did this thing in the past and here's how it moved my life forward.
- [112:08]
A
I would say that they probably do have a track record. Like, they probably have something they're passionate about. You Know, it may not be their job, you know, it may not be the city that they live in, but there might be. Might be a hobby there or there might be some sort of interest that they have or create, I don't know, creative spark or. Most of us want something. It's very rare to be so Buddhist that you're okay with no desires.
- [112:36]
B
Then you've actually transcended the mortal coil. You're enlightened at that point. Right? Congratulations.
- [112:41]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I would just pursue that. Maybe it's not through work. The people that I met in improv, one of them, them was like an accounting professor who lived in the suburbs and like, his kids had gone to college and he like, didn't have any friends and like, I don't know, I mean, that's, that's not like a picture of, wow, everyone wants to be this guy. But, you know, he decided to do improv because it was like it would get him out of his head, you know, something fun. He met people. It wasn't let's get drunk together, you know. You know, it was creative. It nurtured a part of him that, you know, maybe his daily life, life didn't really. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to have, you know, kind of a. A 9 to 5 and, and have your interesting thing be afterward.
- [113:33]
B
But the point, the, the most salient point in that for me is just the practicality of it. Like, I think, you know, we were talking about, like, what's the difference between personality and attitude and mindset? The same applies when you start talking about values and purpose and meaning and passion. And they're all words, you know, that we share with. Well, in a, In a well intentioned way. But I think, you know, it's. It's also confusing. Like, I don't know what my passion is. Like, what's my purpose? You know, And I think it's paralyzing to a lot of people or makes them feel bad. Like, I don't know what my purpose is. I guess I'm supposed to like. And I don't. Which is why I brought up curiosity earlier because, like, we all have some. Something we're curious about. And even if it's just like, what's the one thing you're willing to. What's the one little step you can take to kind of nourish that curiosity and developing that habit alone kind of like just starts to move your path in a little bit of a different direction without worrying about what your passion or your purpose Is, Yeah.
- [114:34]
A
I would not try to identify a passion as your first step.
- [114:38]
B
Those things happen as a consequence of acting as if and faking it till you make it and just, you know, getting out into the world and doing things that are uncomfortable until they're not.
- [114:49]
A
Yeah. Carol Dweck had a great study. This isn't in the book, but I wrote about it a few years ago where she like basically found that every college student thinks they have to find their passion and that should be their major.
- [115:02]
B
That's an act of violence. I have a 17 year old daughter right now, now, and we're going and visiting schools and she feels like she's supposed to know what you know, because they're like, well, you can declare your major. And it's like, how is like, you're not supposed to know. You shouldn't know. Like the whole point of going is to like explore your curiosity and figure out what excites you.
- [115:24]
A
Yeah. And it's, you know, and it's not giving up on your passion to change your major either. Like, it's part of, part of learning and some of this. Yeah, it can be developed. It's, you know, as you get better at something, you're like, oh, my passion is, you know, neurobiology or whatever because you happen to be good at it.
- [115:41]
B
Well, that brings up the whole subject of quitting that you bring up in here too. Right. As a very conscientious person, probably quitting is difficult. Once you say you're going to do something, then saying, yeah, I'm not going to do this anymore. Is that hard for you?
- [115:59]
A
It was hard. And I wanted to not have too much of an escape route for the book where it's like, as soon as I didn't like something, I could just quit it. Because you can.
- [116:11]
B
Yeah. So it was like the meetups that you were.
- [116:14]
A
Yeah, like, do I keep doing these meetups that are like death marches sometimes or do I, you know, like, you know, can I quit them? I think like, I mean, everyone's gonna come to a different decision. Two kind of things on that note is, is like, first of all, I would get less attached to the specific activities that you're doing and more to what you're working toward. So if you're trying to make more friends, but you're not any good at pickleball, you don't have to stick with pickleball. You can do something else, book club or whatever. So you can change up the activities that are getting you there. And the personality change research, they give them a list of different things they can do. It's not like you have to do improv. The other thing is something that I've had to realize with having a kid is that like you can have like seasons of your life where you do different things and that's okay. Like that's not giving up or quitting or you're not being true to whatever your mission is. But like when you have a newborn, you're just not going to be able to have as active of a social life unless all of your friends come to your house. Like during the baby's wake windows there. There's going to be times of your life when you're maybe solely focused on work or focused on having a new baby or whatever other thing and it's okay as long as it doesn't take over your life.
- [117:37]
B
Is that or has that been a challenge for you as a striver?
- [117:46]
A
So our baby and newborn experience was so all consuming that it was there.
- [117:53]
B
Wasn'T really remove the choice.
- [117:55]
A
Yeah. Like I didn't like all my friends live in DC, a 45 minute drive away and they're like, hey, come get drunk with us. And I was like, I cannot. So that part was hard. But like babies are just so all consuming that you can't. You're like, this is the season I'm in. I guess the baby decided it does get harder. Like later on, like I'm here, he's with my parents and I'm like, am I a bad mom for enjoying myself?
- [118:26]
B
A bad mom doesn't wonder whether they're a bad mom.
- [118:29]
A
Yeah.
- [118:30]
B
Maybe of all the things that you tried and explored, what was the, the most like, the most deeply uncomfortable of all of them? Maybe beyond improv. Maybe it was improv, but we talked about that.
- [118:44]
A
The most deeply uncomfortable, comfortable in some ways was this conversation workshop I went to in London which was all about having like deeper and more meaningful conversations with people and how to do that. And it was very interesting and good subject matter. But I think I just have like a cultural difference with British people where they're so reserved and even in my introverted state, I am just a lot more garrulous and like oversharing very at baseline than they are. And I think it like maybe comes off as rude or just like not culturally like what they want to be happening.
- [119:29]
B
It was like what was the context though?
- [119:31]
A
We were all in a room together and just talking about conversations and having deep conversations with one another for like three days. But.
- [119:41]
B
But you're going deeper than they are.
- [119:43]
A
No.
- [119:44]
B
What Was it. What was it? Was it that was uncomfortable about it?
- [119:47]
A
So she would, like, ask us a question, like, oh, has anyone ever had this experience? And like, it was just like dead silence in the room. Like a long, like, no one raising their hand. Like a long, long, long silence.
- [120:02]
B
So you're like, I have to be the extrovert here.
- [120:04]
A
I'm like, I, I. So I would, like, raise. I was like, does she want me to, like, volunteer or is this like a normal British silence that I need to just be silent through? You know what I mean? Like, there was just like some cultural things where. And then I felt like I was more willing to just like, say whatever I was thinking. And for them, it really was like, like the, the class kind of gave them, like, permission to like, dig deeper and like, share more than they would normally share.
- [120:30]
B
In that context, though, you're, you're, you're like the leader that you're like, you've got the American, you know, kind of like showing them how to like, you know, like, talk about their feeding feelings or something, you know?
- [120:41]
A
Yeah. I was wondering toward the end, like, if they're like, I hope I never see this girl again because she talks too much. I don't know. I really. It was, it was challenging because then, like, we were strangers basically, and we were like, we would have these conversations where it's like the person shares something and then like, you. Some, some of the times we would have like these scripted lists of questions, and they were like, what did that mean to you? Or why was that important. Important to you? Which I've, I've learned is like a very good conversational strategy when you kind of don't understand why the person's telling you something. But, like, you met this person, like, I don't know, 30 minutes ago, and suddenly you're asking like, you know, what did that, like, breakup mean to you? You know, it's like you're probably used to it as a podcast host, but it's in day to day life, it can be a little, like, strange, I guess. I don't know.
- [121:32]
B
Yeah, well, you know, like, I keep harping back onto it, but like, you go to AA meetings, it' wearing it on their sleeve. You know what I mean? But is that being an extrovert or agreeableness?
- [121:45]
A
It was just like, testing my comfort with being in a situation where I want to be liked and I don't totally understand the culture.
- [121:56]
B
Right. I see. So the discomfort with like, not knowing what the rules are.
- [122:00]
A
Yeah.
- [122:00]
B
And if you don't know what the rules are, then how are you gonna people please and curry favor and feel like you. You belong?
- [122:06]
A
Yes. Because even if you go on a bumble BFF date in your city, like, going on a.
- [122:13]
B
Which I didn't know what that was until I read.
- [122:15]
A
So these are like.
- [122:16]
B
It's like a dating app to. To make friends.
- [122:18]
A
Yes. Yes.
- [122:19]
B
I didn't even know that was a thing.
- [122:20]
A
So let's say. So I, like, you know, would go meet up with someone who works, like, for Congress. Like, it's not that different. Like, they're not that different from me. I kind of get how the conversation is going to go. We have basically the same values. Like, we're gonna talk for an hour to 90 minutes, we're both gonna have one drink, and then we're gonna pay and leave. Like, I kind of get it, you know, and we're both not gonna ask anything too weird. But in that setting, it was so strange. Like, the questions we were asking each other and the. Like, just the way we were approaching the conversations. And then I think I just. Like, I don't fit into British culture.
- [123:00]
B
Well, speaking of conversations and not fitting in, I'd love for you to share a little bit about what you learned about how to do this more agreeably. I mean, obviously, we're all experiencing a very interesting moment right now in which disagreeability is paramount, and our ability to. To just share the same space with people and communicate with some degree of compassion and commitment to listening and understanding is very much not happening right now. And we're seeing. And it's like, if we can't figure that out, then democracy will not survive. It's an existential crisis to the health and future of our country, I think. And it all starts with. With how two people sit across from each other and look each other in the eye and, you know, communicate and exchange. And this is being threatened profoundly at the moment. So what did you learn about conversation and how to communicate with people who don't share the same worldview? And it's an inflamed situation where, you know, every word feels like a problem. Provocation.
- [124:21]
A
Yeah. It can be so challenging. So there's a psychologist I quote in the book who. And I'm going to butcher the quote. I'm sorry. It's like disagreement raises the possibility that we are stupid or wrong. And if you think about it, that's how it can feel. Because if I'm telling you that XYZ happened, you're telling me that ABC happened, one of us is right, you know, or presumably, you know, or one of us is wrong. And then what does that mean about the person who's wrong?
- [124:53]
B
Especially when you're self identifying with that idea.
- [124:56]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. What I would try to do is, like, break out of the exact facts of whatever you're talking about and try to get at the deeper layer of why that person is telling you what they're, they're telling you. Like they're making some sort of bid for connection even with whatever thing there's, they're saying that is blatantly wrong in, in your view, you know, and, or, you know, just like, how did that person come about those views? Why are those views important to them? So I, I guess I'll give a real example. My parents like Vladimir Putin, and sometimes I, I, well, I haven't been doing this, but I sometimes think that our conversations about him would be more productive if I was like, what do you like about him? Like, what or what does he do for you? What does he represent for you? Why is he meaningful? Like, why are you telling me about him? Like, what, what, what do you want me to say in response to this? Like, because when they, like, come to me and tell me about Vladimir Putin, like, they're trying to do something, they're, they're, they're trying to either, like, say, like, hey, this is really important to me and I want it to be important to you too. Hey, like, I'm looking for something to talk with you about. You know, it's, there's some underlying thing there that is not just like, Vladimir Putin. The person with admitting that I have not successfully done this yet. I think that if we try to, I mean, not to make the whole world like a mushy Kumbaya thing, but if we try to get more into the feelings that people have that are motivating what they're saying, that can be a more interesting and fruitful conversation than, you know, whatever the specifics are of it, you know, because it's probably something like, I feel like Russians are disrespected wherever they go. And he makes me feel respected, you know, and it's like, oh, okay, why do you feel Russians are disrespected? Why is respect important to you? What are some times that you have felt respected? Like, there are so many interesting questions and avenues in that direction that aren't like. But do you Remember when on June 27, he said XYZ? You know?
- [127:27]
B
Yeah, that's not a productive strategy, but I think the path to empathy and understanding is going beneath it. To try to understand the motivation behind it. Because everybody's right from their own perspective. Right. And they're being animated or motivated by something that they care about. And that thing they care about is probably something you care about too. And trying to find shared ground there and trying to, to do it in the context of, you know, scenarios that are, that are, that are inflammatory, you know, makes it difficult. Which brings it back to, like, mindfulness and all these other things that you, you shared about it. Because that allows you to inhabit that space a little bit more detached and not. Not threatened by it because you're not putting. You're right. You're not wagering your identity.
- [128:18]
A
Mm. Yeah. And I mean, and to hold your.
- [128:20]
B
Own ideas more loosely.
- [128:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, at that, that conversation workshop, that was a little, A little weird. I shared that my parents have this belief because I was the oversharer of the group and there was another guy there who was like, well, you know, like, it kind of makes sense from their perspective. Right. Like, if, you know, if I like, moved abroad during, during like Obama's presidency, I'd be like, he's amazing. Even if everyone, like, in that country didn't like him, there's a, there's a.
- [128:52]
B
Pride of where they grew up and it's probably hard for them and they feel lonely and, you know, they want to, they want to hold on to, you know, what, what was great about the place that they grew up in.
- [129:04]
A
Yeah.
- [129:04]
B
And, you know, are they exposing themselves to state sponsored propaganda or like, you know, what's informing this, you know?
- [129:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [129:14]
B
And so, and that message is, is probably selling them an idea that, you know, if you believed it to be true, like, you would agree with also.
- [129:23]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And journalists do this all the time. You know, when we write stories about people, we're like, this person believes this and that's why they want this. And this is the obstacle to them getting that, you know, and here's the story about it. And, you know, we don't start out with like, interrogation, targeting their belief system or, you know, whatever it is they want.
- [129:43]
B
How have you found this? Just as a, as a journalist who writes for the Atlantic and has written for the New York Times, like in this moment where, you know, there's a distrust of, of media, institutionalized media and, and a certain regard about, like, coastal elitism with respect to this kind of writing. Like, when you go out in the world and you interview people or you tell people what you do, like, do you run up against that kind of stuff?
- [130:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I do. I mean, it's gotten harder for sure, like, than 10 years ago to interview. I guess I'll just say conservatives. Yeah, it's gotten harder because there's a lot of anti media rhetoric. I mean, we try to reassure people, tell them what kind of story it's going to be, you know, tell them why we're looking to talk to them, them, give examples of other stories that have taken their ideas seriously. You know, that's kind of all you can do is like, sort of be like, I come in peace, and then like, they can ultimately make the decision about whether or not to talk to you. I have done stories, though, involving lots and lots of conservatives, and I actually interviewed a January 6th participant.
- [131:00]
B
I mean, that's a perfect example of like, you know, what. What is motivating that person? She.
- [131:05]
A
Yeah, and I think it was, like, actually a really interesting experience because I was like, I could kind of see, like, I would not do January 6th, but I was like, I get, like, why, like, you put all these things together to lead you to January 6th. Like, I get where you were in your life and, like, what Donald Trump offered you and, like, why that led to you doing this. Because, like, yeah, it just kind of made sense to me. She's also from my hometown, which helped probably in helping it make sense to me. But, yeah, I mean, often if you just tell people, look, I want to understand your perspective on this. I want to know what would make someone want to participate in January 6th. They're like, okay, yeah, I want to tell you.
- [131:55]
B
And had you stayed in your hometown and lived that person's life, like, you would have made the same choice that she made.
- [132:02]
A
Possibly.
- [132:03]
B
I mean, yeah, maybe at least, you know, entertaining the. The plausibility of that.
- [132:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, potentially.
- [132:10]
B
Yeah. All right, final parting words. Like, what is. What is the. What is, like the overarching 10,000 foot view on personality and our agency to shift it that you want people to walk away with.
- [132:25]
A
I would say I wrote recently, like on my substack, that a better title for this book might have been you have it in you. Which is just that if there's some challenge in your life or something that you're facing or something unfamiliar, that you probably have it in you to face that challenge. Like, you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that, and you just need to nurture them. You need to go out and act in. Act as if. Fake it till you make it and rise to the occasion. And you can. Don't let your personality determine the things that you do in life.
- [133:05]
B
Yeah, I think we all have untapped potential that if we're courageous enough to face and wrestle with, could make our lives better. And I love that. Again, it's back to agency. It's very empowering to hear. Hear that.
- [133:21]
A
I hope so.
- [133:22]
B
Yeah. It's beautiful. What are you working on now? What's the next book? What's the next thing that you're asking yourself that you need? What journey are you going to go on?
- [133:32]
A
What's wrong with you now? I've been writing a lot about parenting and my struggles and successes, such as they are.
- [133:39]
B
All right, well, I look forward to the parenting book. Thanks, Olga. This was great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
- [133:45]
A
Yeah, thank you so much.
- [133:46]
B
Me, but better. I am. I am me, but a little bit better for having talk talked to you today. And I think everybody out there listening or watching will be a little bit better for, for checking out your book, your wonderful book. So thanks for writing it.
- [134:01]
A
Thanks so much.
- [134:02]
B
Cheers. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including link and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing, Change and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants.
- [135:40]
A
Namaste.