← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
Olympic Legend Dara Torres: Age-Defying Fitness, Eating Disorders & Protecting The Next Generation of Gold Medal Talent
01:37:25
Loading summary
Transcript331 lines
- [00:01]
Rich Roll
Movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion even. Movement is a language. It's a way of connecting body, mind and environment.
- [00:12]
Brett
Movement as a way of being.
- [00:14]
Rich Roll
A way of being that brings me close to myself, closer to other people, and to what matters most in life. And for me, what we wear in.
- [00:23]
Brett
That pursuit plays a crucial role.
- [00:25]
Rich Roll
And that's what I appreciate about on they engineer apparel that supports and and elevates the practice of movement itself. From running shorts with built in support to technical tees that cool you down.
- [00:37]
Brett
Right where it matters.
- [00:38]
Rich Roll
This is apparel born from precision and tested by elite athletes, but made for anyone committed to the path.
- [00:45]
Brett
I've been with on since 2023 and.
- [00:47]
Rich Roll
I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not Flash. Head to on.comrichroll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. We're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at GO Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy, Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called go, which ended up being this really incredible weekend, oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but you know, that was kind of that. And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself, itself, by creating this new enterprise that.
- [01:33]
Brett
Was also called go.
- [01:35]
Rich Roll
GO Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today. One of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies, they handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries. Now in over 5,000 locations across 20 states and available online. The salty Al af Chilada earned the untapped number one non alcoholic lager in the United States. And they're constantly creating bold new flavors.
- [02:11]
Brett
Almost every month that push the boundaries of what non alcoholic beer can be.
- [02:16]
Rich Roll
Double IPAs, mouthwatering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with go go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code rich roll for 15% off your first purchase.
- [02:43]
Brett
Go.
- [02:50]
Dara Torres
I'm so competitive and once I'm in, like I'm all in and I'm going to do whatever I can to be the best I can be. And the biggest thing that I learned just from my age and being in the sport for so long is listen to your body. I think you always wish you can do what you wanted to do when you were younger. And you know when your body a break, you need to take breaks. I'm a big believer in learning from people. I think researching and learning what's going to work best for you is really important.
- [03:25]
Rich Roll
The theme of age defying athletic feats has been a pretty steady and recurring one here on this podcast and pretty much from the beginning and across the pages of Finding Ultra. And it's sort of part and parcel of what I talk about when I talk about what it means to transcend the limitations we impose and imagine when it comes to what we are capable of doing with both our bodies and our minds. And insofar as this idea goes, there is nobody more emblematic of it than today's guest. Because Dera Torres is the complete, absolute embodiment and pinnacle of age defying athletic excellence, exceeding all labels, every expectation to essentially astonish the world by winning Olympic medals at an age that others presume to be just well past her expiration date. As many of you know, I was a competitive swimmer myself, and because Dara and I are basically the same age, she's somebody this athlete that I first came across as a young teenager and basically this person that I can't even remember not knowing about. But for those who are not in the know, Dara is one of the most accomplished and decorated female athletes in Olympic history. A sprint, freestyle and relay specialist with 12 Olympic medals and three world records to her name. She's also the first swimmer to represent the US in an astonishing five Olympiads, her first being in Los Angeles in 1984 when she was just 17. Then there was Seoul in 88, Barcelona in 92, Sydney in 2000, where she won five medals, and finally all the way to Beijing in 2008. While it's worth noting missing out on a sixth Olympic Games in London in 2012 by only 4/1000 of a second. Along the way, Dara has had many high highs, but also plenty of low lows, as well as a couple retirements and comebacks, each of which were more remarkable than the one before for doing things people thought impossible. Given the advancement of her age so to put things in context at the time, throughout Dara's career, it just wasn't a thing that a swimmer could be competitive on the world stage beyond a certain age. And that age was somewhere in the mid-20s at best. And yet, during her first comeback in Sydney when she was 33, Dara became the oldest member of the USA team. She became the oldest woman to medal in swimming and won more medals than any athlete on the team that year. Then after birthing a child in 2006, she returned for her second comeback to break the 50 freestyle American record in 2007. And in 2008, at 41 years of age, broke it again in Beijing, where she took home three silvers and the distinction of having swam the fastest 100 freestyle split in the world ever when she anchored the 4x100 medley relay. And then again, I should say, at the Olympic trials in 2012 at age 45, almost made, as I said earlier, her sixth Olympic team, narrowly missing it by only 4/100 of a second. So this is a person who has done it all, even in retirement, where she found a different kind of success as a sports broadcaster, as a fitness influencer, before that was even a thing. She sold something like 10 million taebo DVDs with Billy Blanks back in the day, all the way to today where she is in her second year as the head swimming coach, her first coaching post at Boston College. Dara is one of the most fiercely competitive people on the planet, probably the fittest 58 year old on earth and still getting after it. So how did she do what she did? How does she continue to do what she does, which is to defy gender and age expectations, to essentially excel in life in so many different ways. So that's what today is about. It's a conversation about self belief and self sacrifice, determination and dedication, resilience and motivation, perseverance and parenting, including parenting herself, her daughter, and now the next generation.
- [07:45]
Brett
Of equality aquatic talent.
- [07:46]
Rich Roll
So buckle up people, because Dara is a true force of nature.
- [07:54]
Brett
Dara, so nice to meet you and have you here. I think you did you just arrive from Singapore?
- [07:59]
Dara Torres
I did. I was out there for World aquatics, so was pretty busy out there and got in last night and my first stop is you.
- [08:07]
Brett
How did the US Team do? Like, I admit I didn't really follow the meet.
- [08:11]
Dara Torres
You know, they're doing okay. I think that when they had their, from what I understand, they had their training camp in Thailand and a lot of them got sick, so like some kind of bug or Whatever. So some had to scratch some events, like Gretchen Walsh, she scratched out her freestyle, even though she won the Hunter Fly. And there's a lot of something going on. So I don't know the exact amount of swimmers who got affected by it, but I think a good majority of the team did.
- [08:38]
Brett
Well, I think it's a really interesting time for USA Swimming. Like, we can no longer just expect to dominate at every meet. I think Paris, you know, was kind of a referendum on that. And perhaps, like, my sense of the team in Paris was that it's sort of in transition. Like, there were a lot of very accomplished swimmers with storied careers at the very end of their career trying to hang on, and then this new crop of young talent that is sort of just beginning their Olympic journey. And so there wasn't anyone, really, who was right in the pocket of that sweet spot where, you know, we tend to, like, always have, you know, these standout performances from. From our country.
- [09:18]
Dara Torres
Yeah, you know, it's tough also, because the year after the Olympic Games is always a rough year. You know, you're really gearing towards the Olympic Games, and considering that, you know, it was just a year ago that they had them to be able to come back and swim at Worlds. We probably don't have our deepest talents. I mean, we have a lot of great swimmers there, but, you know, some people are taking off and taking a break, and some people didn't train as hard, you know, this past year. So it's not a great sort of environment to see where our, really, our best swimmers are. And you look at Australia, too, like, they don't have their. A lot of their top swimmers aren't there either, so.
- [09:55]
Brett
Well, I was trying to think if we'd actually ever met, and I don't think we ever had. But, you know, we're about the same age, almost exactly the same age, and, you know, have been in sport for a long time and, you know, you were on this. This, like, incredible trajectory. My trajectory was, you know, less interesting. But you're somebody who I have, you know, despite not having met you, like, of course, known of, like, since I was, you know, probably 14 or 15 years old. So it's really fun to have a legend sitting across from me. And your story is super fascinating. And I think, you know, people who follow swimming or know who you are are familiar with, like, the two comebacks and, you know, kind of doing something that no one had ever done before by winning these, you know, medals at the. In your fifth Olympics at age 41. Which is just, you know, an incredible story. But I think what gets lost in the sort of narrative here is that for somebody who isn't really familiar with what swimming was like during our time, like when we were in high school, there was no money in swimming. And there was this idea that basically nobody was extending their career past 21. And part of that was because there was no money, so no one was even trying to. But that idea was that, well, that's your peak. Maybe there's a few people who could extend it to 24 or so, but nobody was going into their 30s, let alone, oh, my God, fourth decade. Like, that was just absolutely unheard of, even though we kind of see that stuff now happening kind of all over the place. And I think you broke a barrier there. And especially with women athletes. I think we both know of many, many young female swimmers who would make this huge splash between 14 and 16 and go to the Olympics, but then could never kind of repeat those performances. So I feel like it was even more outrageous that a woman athlete could do this thing. And I think people who don't know swimming kind don't get that aspect of it.
- [11:53]
Dara Torres
Well, you know, I think you did nail the nail on the head when you said that, you know, you didn't. You peaked at, you know, an early age or that there wasn't money in the sport. And I think that was the biggest thing, is there wasn't money in the sport. So when you got done with college, that was it. You move on to the next chapter in your life. And that's what I did. I mean, I graduated college and I went to New York and was doing sports modeling and some TV work and working behind the scenes at NBC Sports and being, like, really busy. But I think for me, I was lucky that I was able to save some money, come back and swim again. And then money started being the sports. I started paying athletes at the Olympic Games if you win a gold, silver, or bronze, and you start to see that more and more. And then Michael Phelps came onto the scene, and it sort of just pushed swimming into a different level where people were excited about it and wanted to sponsor athletes. And there's a lot more money in the sport than there was back in the day when we were swimming in our early 20s or late teens and stuff. So I think that they had that myth, and you're right, too, that women tend to peak, or I guess they think they peak when they're teenagers. But you have to remember that a woman's body changes in a different way than a man's body does. And so it's a little tougher for women when you get like, go from a girl to a woman. It's not easy. I mean, I went through lots of ups and downs, which I know people in the swimming world probably. I remember like in college at a really tough time and then I got an eating disorder and, you know, it was just a, it was a rough time for me. But then my body got to the point where, I don't know, it got better and better and better and I was able to do what I did. But, you know, I also took care of myself. I worked out all the time and, you know, not knowing I would, in between my long breaks that I'd be making a comeback. But I think the fact that I stayed active really helped also.
- [13:52]
Brett
Right. The idea that you were never really out of shape, even though you were taking these, you know, multi year breaks.
- [13:58]
Rich Roll
But you know, the other thing is.
- [14:00]
Brett
Until you and Pablo did it, you know, both of you, you know, in 1992, nobody at the highest level of swimming had ever like taken a year off, let alone a couple years, and come back at all. Like, I don't even know if that had ever even been tried, let alone tried successfully.
- [14:18]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I think I didn't know how it was going to be. I remember when I made a comeback after having my daughter, I went to the doctor, my orthopedic surgeon, I'm like, hey. I said, can you just like, X ray my body and make sure, like, everything's okay? Because I don't like if I can do this or not. And he's like, what? Do what? And I said, I want to make a comeback. And he's like, oh. And he's like, so you want me to X ray, like, your body parts? I'm like, yeah, just make sure, like, everything's. He's like, okay. I don't even know if he did it. He just like, all of a sudden he comes back and I don't know.
- [14:43]
Rich Roll
What an X ray is going to.
- [14:44]
Brett
Reveal unless your bones are broken, I don't know.
- [14:46]
Dara Torres
And he's like, yeah, everything's great, just go for it. I'm like, okay, you know, and like, I had no idea how I was going to do and what was going to happen and if my body could handle all the training. And, you know, I realized really quickly that, you know, I had to add recovery in there. And when I look back on my career and people are like, oh, you took so many years off. How'd you do that. I think my body was recovering that whole entire time, you know, because as you know, in the old days, they used to just pound the yardage all the time and you didn't really have time to recover except when you tapered, which for your audience, that's when you start resting for a meet. You know, that was really the only rest you had. And you had maybe one or two weeks off a year, it was a year round sport. And so I think in reality my body was allowed to rest and be able to come back after all those years of training. So I think it was a blessing in disguise.
- [15:39]
Brett
Right, you spared yourself like, you know, what so many swimmers had to endure, you know, which is just basically decades of walking around like a zombie.
- [15:47]
Dara Torres
Yes, exactly.
- [15:49]
Brett
We had yesterday I had Andy Galpin in here, who's a strength coach. I don't know if you ever heard of him, but this guy is like, you know, just a font of incredible knowledge. And he was talking about when it comes to fitness, you always have to start with efficiency first and kind of build on that. And we were talking about all the facets of what goes into fitness from a holistic perspective. But I was sharing with him what swimming was like back in the day, where it was just like, no periodization, not a single thought for recovery. Sleep is optional. You're just sleep deprived the entire time. So of course, I mean, you can get away with it when you're young, but you're not really giving yourself the opportunity to recover, which is how you actually get better. And that was just the way that it was like volume yardage. And on top of that, you're at Mission Viejo, which is the birthplace of that whole kind of training philosophy. So you grew up in Beverly Hills. You're this standout kind of from the get go. You break your first world record at 14 or 15, which is insane. And then you decide to go down to Orange county and train with this guy, Mark Schubert at this program called Mission Viejo, which was just like, that was like the Mecca, you know, in the, in the early 80s. Like during that period of time, it was almost like there was a whole mythology around like what was going on there.
- [17:13]
Dara Torres
Well, you know, it's funny because you made this big thing about Michigan Viejo and Mark Schubert and obviously, you know, and I know that he was known for distance swimming and like, why are you going to.
- [17:22]
Brett
This guy was given more yards than anyone I know.
- [17:25]
Dara Torres
So when he kind of like came up to me and said, hey, I heard here you're Moving to Fort Lauderdale to train for the Olympics. You know, why don't you just stay local? And I was like, you know, there's. I just need to be on a bigger team. And because I was on the team that I had, I didn't have a lot of competition to be able to like race in practices. And that's why I was looking for a team in Fort Lauderdale was the team I was looking at. And he convinced me to stay and said, oh no, like I have these male sprinters coming in, they're going to be great. And you know, my training for sprinters is much different. And I'm like, you know, do I believe this? And so when I went there, sure enough, like we got in after everyone, we got out before everyone. Our training wasn't like long distance training. Like, he really catered.
- [18:05]
Brett
He was true to his words.
- [18:06]
Dara Torres
Yeah, he was very true to his words and catered to the sprinters. So it wasn't as bad as what someone from the outside looking in would think.
- [18:14]
Brett
I'm imagining you at like 16, you know, just doing like, you know, like, you know, 18,000 meters a day, you know, for a 22nd race.
- [18:22]
Dara Torres
I'll tell you, like at University of Florida with Randy Reese, he would have us on Fridays do a 6,000 per time. And I'm thinking, what is this? I mean, I can't even count to a 500 being a sprinter. So to do a 6,000 for time, that was a little bit brutal.
- [18:35]
Brett
Yeah, like a 50 meter or like a 50, 100 meter dash runner, you know, like doing, you know, like 20 mile long run.
- [18:42]
Dara Torres
Yeah, it's crazy.
- [18:43]
Brett
Yeah, that's changed a lot. And I think you've played like a vital role in like reimagining what swim training could be. So you have all of this success, 1984 and 1988, but like all of your medals are in relays. You still have that elusive like sort of Olympic, you know, like individual Olympic medal. What was the, the thought process in making this comeback in the first place? Was it just unfinished business or just feeling like you had more to express here or, you know, like you were. It's not as if you were navel gazing and had nothing to do like you had this career as a broadcast. You had a very flashy, like you had made this transition into this very public facing, kind of glamorous career.
- [19:24]
Dara Torres
You know, it's funny because I think a lot of the times when athletes make comebacks is because that's what they're used to and what they've done their whole lives, and they miss it like that.
- [19:36]
Brett
And the world is just confusing about it. Like a veteran coming back from an overseas conflict and doesn't really know how to function in the normal world.
- [19:44]
Dara Torres
Exactly. And I wasn't like that. I had a lot of stuff going on. And when I made my first big comeback for 2000, I had been off seven years. Like, I didn't touch the water. And for me, it was just some people at dinner the year before the Olympic trials saying, you know, hey, like, have you ever thought I'm making a comeback? And I was like, 32 at the time. Like, there's no way. Like, I haven't swam in seven years. And I don't know. Once the thought was in my head. I'm really the type of person that loves challenges and loves trying to do something someone else hasn't done.
- [20:15]
Brett
Clearly.
- [20:16]
Dara Torres
And so trying for a fourth Olympics after taking seven years off, I'm like, oh, that'd be cool. Let me see if I can do this. And Richard Quick at Stanford decided to take me on. And, you know, it was a very successful Olympics at 2000. Won five medals, finally medaled in individual events, which was great. And, you know, that was that one. And then when, like, fast forward six years, and I got pregnant with my daughter, you know, I was. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to the gym. I have to work out. And it just wasn't working out. Cause I kept getting sick every time I went to the gym. And so I thought, well, you know, if I go to a pool, I can get sick in the gutter and I can keep swimming. It's not a big deal, you know. So I ended up going to a pool and started swimming a little bit while I was pregnant, and then ended up joining a Master's team at Cor Coral Springs. And then about a week before I was supposed to deliver, the coach was like, hey, we have a Master's Nationals here in, like, three weeks. Can you swim in it? And I'm like, I think I'm delivering in, like, a week. So I highly doubt my doctor's gonna let me swim three weeks after I deliver. And he's like, well, just ask. And I'm like, okay. And I don't know. One thing led to another, and I convinced my doctor. So three weeks after I had my daughter, I swam at Masters Nationals and, you know, did okay. And then after that, I got convinced to go to. To Masters Worlds, which was like two and a half months later at Stanford, and somehow qualified from the book trials. And I mean to, but I did. And then all these old people kept coming up to me and saying, hey, you should train for the Olympics and represent us middle aged people. And I don't know, after a lot of nagging, I'm like, all right, I'll do it. You know, not really thinking. And that's when I got the X rays and he's like, oh, yeah, you can swim. And so I decided to swim a couple things.
- [21:54]
Brett
Like, first of all, is it true that you worked out every day for all nine months of your pregnancy?
- [22:00]
Dara Torres
I tried to. I mean, I literally was nauseous every day my whole entire pregnancy. So when I did try to, you know, go to the gym, it just, I kept getting sick to my stomach. And so the swimming really helped. It helped me with my nausea and it helped me feel good about myself actually working out. So.
- [22:18]
Brett
And getting up on starting blocks like, three weeks after giving birth and like, doing fine, not a pretty sight. And then like two and a half months later, actually making Olympic trials like that is insane, setting aside the age aspect of it to begin with. But I think I want to start with the first comeback, the lead up to 2000 where you competed, and you were 33 at that time. And that was like, oh, my God, 33. How could you do that, let alone, oh my God, 41 later. But I just remember because you arrived at Stanford to train with Richard Quick, who, for people who don't know, is just an absolute, like, you know, legend in, in the sport and beloved by, like, anybody who had the, the good fortune to train underneath him. And he was new at the time as the women's coach at Stanford. Like, and so you kind of showed up. Right, right, like a little bit after I had left. But, you know, our alumni network, it's, you know, there's, there's, there's like gossip and like, what's going on? And like, you know, Dara training with Richard, and we're hearing stories about, like, weird training protocols and, you know, you're doing things like no one had ever done before. And we're like, wow, what's, you know, what is happening over there? Right? So that it seems to me there was like, there was some, there was some mythology around that too, because you were experimenting. There's a very kind of locked in, standard way of how to train. Right. And you don't really challenge that dogma too much. But you came in clearly, like, asking questions and had found like a, a partner in Richard, who I can only assume was really Game for this challenge of approaching what you do through a completely new and different lens.
- [24:06]
Dara Torres
Well, he was actually like that, too, because for me, I actually love training with coaches who like to think outside the box. And so the minute I went to him, you know, I remember, first of all, he changed my stroke completely. Like, it was. He's like, we don't swim like that anymore. And I'm like, wait, what? You know, and so he had completely changed my stroke. And then after, like, the first week, he's like, hey, you know, I want you to go talk to this person. I'm like, who? And he's like, well, he's in Washington State, and his name is Richard Diana. And, you know, when I was coaching in 96 and I had to coach the women's relay, like, he was the women's coach, and he was going to be the women's coach in 2000, he's like. Like, every personality on that relay was different. So if you tell them something, one person may be able to take it in, but the other three may not understand it the way the other person does. He said, so I want you to go see this person, and he's going to evaluate you and let me know the best way to coach you. And I was like, okay. This guy had me doing, like, crazy stuff, you know, And I get back, and the outcome was that I'm a very visual learner. So if you try to tell me something on how to do it, I don't take it in. Like, you have to physically show me how to do it, and then I have it, like, right away. Away. Or you'd videotape something I was doing wrong. I need to look at it, and then I can figure it out. Instead of him saying, hey, your elbow's not high enough when you do this. I still won't do it right unless I see it. And so he was the one who actually would think outside the box. But then he wanted us to go to Pilates, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll go to Pilates or whatever. And I'd never done it before. And I went to Pilates, and I found it was, like, making me tighter, not looser. And the third time that I had gone, there was a guy in the corner who was stretching someone, like, doing these crazy pretzel stretches and stuff. And I said to my Pilates and instructor, what's that guy doing? He said, oh, stretching. He goes, actually, this might be better for you than Pilates. So I met this guy, and he has a partner that he worked with. And they do resistive stretching, working like the different Chinese meridians in your body. And I was like, great, I'll try it. And so I also like to feel what it does for you and not just hear. And so after he worked on one side of my body and it was such a difference compared to the other side of my body that he hadn't worked on, I was like, this is amazing. I introduced him to Richard and Richard. He worked on Richard. And Richard's like, that's it. Hire, like, you know, once he worked on him, he's like, I want you to work with him. So that really helped a lot with my recovery. After my practices, going and getting this stretching done and taking them to the swim meets with me and taking the Olympics with me, it was huge. But, yeah, I really loved working with Richard because he would do things that a lot of coaches wouldn't do or weren't up to date with instead of just pounding the yardage, which was huge. And he's the one who actually taught me about recovery, because there was one time when we got in the pool, started swimming, and I guess he could tell I was, like, exhausted. And I was always the type that would do my practices and then go run like five miles after. Always want to do more, because in my head, if I'm doing more, I'm going to be faster than everyone else. And so it was like a Friday morning, and we got him warmed up, and he's like, derek, he goes, I want you to stand up doing all out 25. I'm like, okay. So I get up, and he timed me. He's like, all right, you're getting out. I'm like, what? And he's like, you're out. And I said, why? And he said, because you're exhausted. You look exhausted. He goes, I want you going home, sitting in your cab, watching movies. You're not doing anything all weekend. If I see you running, you're going to get in trouble. I don't want you lifting, doing anything. I came back Monday morning, had the best practice of my life, and I'm like, oh, okay. This is what recovery is.
- [27:36]
Brett
Rather than just being exhausted for five to eight months and rolling the dice on a taper. Yeah. So this guy, Andy Galpin, yesterday, he framed that as the difference between what he calls functional overreaching, which are periods where you're purposely beating yourself up. And you know, when you get up and try to do a 25 for 20 time from the blocks, that it's not going to be Great. But when you get those two days of rest or whatever, you're going to bounce back and kind of have this super adaptation versus non functional overreaching, which is you're just beating yourself up and digging this hole.
- [28:12]
Dara Torres
It's funny because I'm now a year into coaching at Boston College, and one of the reasons why I didn't want to coach a long time ago is because I didn't want to ruin someone's taper. Tapering and resting for each swimmer is so individualized, you know, compared to just tapering as a group. And that was like a big fear of mine is like, what if I ruin someone's taper and they swim? Horrible. And then it's like on me and making sure they get the right amount of rest and stuff and making sure that, you know, when you're doing practices that if they need a recovery day, you give them a recovery day. And so that was something I was very fearful of when I took this job.
- [28:48]
Brett
Yeah. Because you can only give, when you're coaching a team, you can only give so much individual attention to each person and they all have those different needs. But I like what you shared about Richard approaching you initially from the perspective of like, I don't know how to help this person until I first learn how they learn. You know what I mean? Like, that's a very cool, you know, kind of glimpse into somebody who is thinking different and thinking in the right way.
- [29:17]
Dara Torres
Yeah. Because there are a lot of people that are analytical and they take things in a lot differently than someone who's visual.
- [29:23]
Brett
Yeah. To me, when I think about your career, that seems to be like the first instance in where you're not just necessarily thinking outside the box, but you're starting to get the idea of building a team around yourself that extends beyond just your swim coach. And then you really kind of like push the envelope with that for the next go around.
- [29:45]
Dara Torres
I did. I realized that. That I couldn't do it by myself. I was going to be 41 years old. I started at 39, training for.08 and a little less than two years. And I felt like there's no way I could do this by myself. So I had to find someone who would think outside the box with strength training that, you know, it's like what your Andy said that you talked to yesterday. It's about figuring out how to be efficient in the pool and not necessarily being the strongest in the pool or efficient in the weight room equates to being efficient in the pool rather. And I had like, A massage person. I had my stretching trainers. I had, like, everyone who could help me. And so my role in that was the one who was doing the training, and that was standing up on the blocks and swimming. So we each had a role, and I really surrounded myself with people who had no egos, so we were all in it together. And it was just an awesome feeling to have this team that would work with me because there was no way I would have been able to do it by myself.
- [30:47]
Brett
Yeah, it's an interesting equation to solve. On the one hand, you're older than everyone else, you're training in the pool with teenagers, and you're mature enough to know, hey, I'm not going to be able to do the double workout thing and kind of do it the way this kind of goes down over here. I've got to figure out a different way. But I also have this maturity and all of this experience, and I know how my body works, and I'm going to explore how to get the most of it, given, like, the fact that I'm older and, like, what does that look like and what will that require?
- [31:22]
Dara Torres
Yeah, it was a little bit of a process, and at least I had a couple years to sort of, like, figure it out. But I think what really surprised me after going through all that is that, you know, considering what I was able to do at 41, why weren't there more people asking me, like, hey, what did you do? Like, you know, what were these trainers for? What? You know? And I really didn't have a lot of people ask me, like, I had a few coaches here and there, but you'd think if something works for someone, like, why aren't you trying to figure out what it is that work for them so you can do that, too. Surprising.
- [31:53]
Brett
What were the key elements, like, looking back on that, that you think were the biggest differentiators in how you were training that led to your success?
- [32:01]
Dara Torres
I think. Well, in 2000, I worked with a strength coach who was all about being the strongest because it would equate in the water. But I also felt so heavy in the water when I was swimming because I was probably 10 pounds, 12 pounds heavier than I was in 08. So finding the right strength coach that would really, like I said, was about efficiency and about using body weight and using your core in every exercise. Also, what was really important to him was using a lot of different muscles at once as you're doing an exercise, because that's what you're doing in the pool. That's what you're doing when you're on a track, you're not using just one muscle. You're not just doing a bicep.
- [32:38]
Brett
These functional, functional muscles.
- [32:40]
Dara Torres
Very functional, yes.
- [32:41]
Brett
So that was one dynamic.
- [32:43]
Dara Torres
Yeah, Yeah. I learned that there was no way I can do double workouts. Like, my body just was not gonna do that. So in my head, though, I was so used to old school of the more you do, the better, the heavier you lift, the better. So the hardest thing for me was not physically trying to do that, but wrapping my head around sort of mentally that, okay, I'm not doing as much as the kids. And I'm only going five workouts a week instead of nine. Like, is that gonna be enough for me? You know, when I go to Olympic trials and Olympic games. And so the mental aspect of it was probably the biggest obstacle for me to get over and know that, no, that's what your body can do. And, you know, it's okay if you're not doing what everyone else is doing.
- [33:30]
Rich Roll
Sometimes the things we think are good enough suddenly get better in ways we did not expect. And that's what happened when AG1 launched three new flavors. Look, I was perfectly happy with the original. I've been drinking it every morning for ages. It does its job. But then I tried tropical, which tastes like papaya and passion fruit. There's berry with these blueberry, strawberry notes, and citrus with this lemon orange thing going on. This isn't about chasing novelty. It's about recognizing when something great becomes even better. The Nutrition foundation of AG1 is exactly the same. It remains solid. Multivitamin, prebiotics, probiotics, and superfoods all in one scoop. I still feel that sustained energy, digestive support, all with the same confidence. I'm covering all my nutritional bases, but now there's variety baked into my morning routine. All plant based, no added sugar, no shortcuts taken. So if you've been on the fence about aging one hung up about the taste, consider that fence officially removed. Give the new AG1 flavors a try today. If you head to drink ag1.com richroll you'll also get a free welcome kit worth 76 bucks when you subscribe, including five AG1 travel packs, a shaker, a canister, and a scoop. That's drinkag1.com richroll to get started.
- [34:58]
Brett
This.
- [34:59]
Rich Roll
Show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So I just read this book called Dealing with Feeling. That's right, Dealing with Feeling. It's by this Yale psychology professor called Dr. Mark Brackett, and it's all about emotional intelligence. And why learning to understand and regulate our emotions is like the most important skill you can learn to live a better life, but also to better help others with their emotions. He calls out it co regulation, which in some sense kind of means that we can all act as therapists for each other in some way, which is an amazing thing. Very cool. But, and this is a big but, it's not a replacement for talking with someone who's actually trained to help you. Therapists are not just good listeners, they're clinically trained professionals. They understand patterns, they identify underlying issues and obviously they're well equipped, unlike your.
- [35:54]
Brett
Barber or your bartender or your best.
- [35:58]
Rich Roll
Friend, to provide you with tools that actually work. BetterHelp has been helping people find their therapeutic match for over 10 years. They have a 4.9 rating from 1.7 million client reviews. They do the matching work for you and if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. It's completely online, it's flexible, it fits into your life. As the largest online therapy provider in the world. BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Richroll that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com Richroll.
- [36:47]
Brett
It'S still crazy when you think about the fact that your race is like, you know, if you're swimming the 53 and you compare it to how like 100 meter track and field runners train like it still feels like there's a lot to be learned about how to coach sprinting for swimming.
- [37:04]
Dara Torres
I think it's, you know, a lot of the mid distance and distance kids will tease the sprinters cause we don't swim as long and our races are so short. But I honestly think it's swimming the 50 freestyle is probably the hardest race to swim. Not from a physical aspect because obviously 400, I am 200 fly. Those are really hard races. But mentally your start has to be on, your race has to be on, your finish has to be on. You can't make one mistake. It's not like swimming a 200 where you can fix something really quick and be able to keep going. I mean you have 23, 24 seconds and that's it. To be able to swim your race and you have to be on with everything that you swim. So for me I'm really as a coach, I'm really enjoying coaching the sprinters and sort of teaching Them. A lot of the things that I learned, not just from the physical side of it, but also the mental side of it.
- [37:56]
Brett
The other thing that I think might not be fully appreciated by people who aren't steeped in swimming is that in 2008, you go to Beijing, you're 41 years old, it's your second comeback, and you end up getting silver in the 50 free style, narrowly missing the gold. But you break the American record. Like, you go 24 0, right? And in like, one year prior, you had broken the American record in the 53 by going like 24.5or something like that. Right. So it's not just that you're making this comeback at 41, like, you're breaking American records by wide margins. I mean, to go from. To go from 24. 5 to 24.0 is like a massive leap.
- [38:40]
Dara Torres
Yeah. You know, I just think because I had another year after that first year to be able to get more training, and I think that, you know, really had an effect on me. I mean, in 2000, I had a year and that was it. I remember getting out of the pool in 2000, my last medal, and Richard's saying, you know, it's really too bad that you're retiring because you still haven't reached your peak yet. I was like, what is he talking about? I'm 33 years old, you know, and I think I just. Everything was right for me, you know, you do mention me getting the silver medal, though. I remember watching Phelps the night before, swim the hunter fly. And everyone knows that race because it was all over the press and on cover of Sports Illustrated, like, that touch that he was losing the whole entire way. And I remember him touching and beating the other kid, Kavish, and, you know, thinking to myself, oh, my God, that poor guy that lost 100th of a second. That's gotta be like the worst feeling in the world. And then fast forward the next day and I swim 50 and I lose by a hundredth of a second. And I'm like, okay, now I know what it feels like. But, you know, for me being such a competitive person, it was mentally getting over that hump also, like, do I have to come back at 45? Like, I'm going to be in menopause by then, probably. Like, how am I going to swim at 45 and try to go for that, you know, individual gold medal that keeps eluding me. And I think mentally it was just, you have to give yourself a break. Like, I felt like I did everything I could up to that point. I left no stones unturned. I had the best people I was working with to make this comeback. That if silver medal was what I won that day, that was the best that I can do. And that was a mature process I had to go through to be able to come to that conclusion, you know.
- [40:22]
Brett
Because the silver medal is the rough one for a lot of people, right? Like, the silver medal is the, like, oh, my God, I almost. And, you know, people who win bronze are actually, like, happier than we'll see.
- [40:33]
Dara Torres
Well, especially losing by a hundred of a second. I mean, you can't even blink that fast, so.
- [40:37]
Rich Roll
I know.
- [40:37]
Brett
But then you. You are 45, four years later, and. And you almost do it again. I mean, you. You miss your Olympic birth by, like, less than a tenth of a second.
- [40:48]
Dara Torres
Like.09, right?
- [40:49]
Brett
Like. Like, that is crazy. Like, that. That almost happened.
- [40:53]
Dara Torres
That was rough. That. That whole. You know, I. I made a comeback for that. Like, I took a year off. I had major reconstructive knee surgery with cartilage transplant, and then I had to rehab that for, like, a year. So when I came back, I didn't even really want to, but my coach, who was very sick, was dealing with a rare blood disorder, aplastic anemia. And he was like, hey, we need to finish this chapter of our book. I'm like, what book? And he's like, the book that we've been writing. I'm like, oh, we've been writing a book? And he's like, I wasn't aware. Yeah, I know. I was like, I wasn't aware. And I said, I already wrote two books. And he said, no. Can you imagine coming back and doing this at 45? And I felt so bad because he was so sick. I'm like, well, maybe he'll hang on to life if I. You know, it gives him something to look forward to, to coach and stuff. And so I made this comeback, and about, I don't know, maybe six months in, he ended up passing away. And I'm like, ah, I guess I'll just keep doing this. And so I did go for it, but it was so hard because, you know, we talk about recovery, but as you get older, especially for a woman, your hormones start to go. And so for me, it was about when I'd go to any meet, what a prelim, finals meet. I'd always swim faster in prelims at that age. Like, I could not go faster because my body was still recovering from the race in the morning. So for me, like, Rowdy would make comments, you know, the Com. You know, rowdy. Yeah. He would make comments like, why aren't you swimming 100? You have a better chance at, you know, making a relay than you would in an individual race, but there's no way my body could swim 103 times for prelim semifinals and finals. So that was the hardest thing. And I was at least able at Olympic trials to go the same time and pretty prelims, semifinals and finals, like within a couple tenths of a second. So I was actually really happy with that.
- [42:39]
Brett
It's kind of amazing.
- [42:40]
Rich Roll
And.
- [42:41]
Brett
And you know, even In Beijing, your 100 free split on the medley relay was like the fastest of all time, you know, and yet you didn't, you didn't compete in the 100 free. Yeah. Like, you didn't even swim that race at that.
- [42:53]
Dara Torres
You know why? Because it's an eight day meet, and if I'd swum the 100 freestyle, I.
- [42:57]
Brett
Would compromise almost every.
- [42:58]
Dara Torres
Single. I swim eight times in eight days. So.
- [43:01]
Brett
You're relentless. Like, you know, when people ask you, like, what is the secret here? Or like, how do you make sense of how you were able to, you know, do this thing that nobody had ever done before? How do you, you know, how do you answer that? Like, how do you make sense of what, what the differentiator was for you?
- [43:19]
Dara Torres
Genetics.
- [43:20]
Brett
Yeah. Well, I broke, you know, I broke a world record at 15. Like, I've been at this for a long time.
- [43:26]
Dara Torres
I think actually having a love of something, like my love of swimming, I think was a great encouragement or motivator.
- [43:35]
Brett
You fall out of love, though, and.
- [43:36]
Dara Torres
I did for many years.
- [43:37]
Brett
It's so brutal. Monastic and brutal. Like, you'll see Tour de France riders, like, continuing to ride bikes the rest of their life because they love it, even though that's an insanely hard sport. But something about swimmers, they're like, I'm done with the pool. Like, I'm. I, you know, like, I can't, you know, even think about that.
- [43:54]
Dara Torres
I was there. I mean, I was after. Every time I retired, I was there. I'm like, yeah, I'm done. I can't do this. And then, you know, a couple years go by, you're like, God, actually, I really miss it, you know, and so. And I think, like I said, my, my personality type is the challenge of something. I don't like things handed to me. And so every time there was like a challenge at 33, no one's done that. Going to four Olympics, that's great. Oh, my gosh. Having a kid and going at 41, no one's done, you know, and so there was always a motivating factor for me, but the biggest motivator is the love of the sport.
- [44:23]
Brett
So we're talking about five Olympics, five time Olympian. You're the first swimmer to represent the USA in that many Olympic Games. 12 time Olympic medalist. Tied for women's most with Jenny Thompson. Is that still the case?
- [44:44]
Dara Torres
Katie Ledecky broke it.
- [44:45]
Brett
Oh, Katie, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oldest swimmer to make a US Olympic team. Oldest swimmer to win an Olympic medal. And again, first US Swimmer to make five Olympic teams. I mean, it's just like. It's crazy. Like, now that there is a lot more kind of, like, time and space between that and where you're at now. What is your frame on that? Has it evolved or changed? How do you think about that? Because I imagine, like, everybody wants to be inspired by you, and you do these keynotes, and you get up and you try to motivate people. Has that message evolved in how you communicate the meaning of this to the public?
- [45:23]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I mean, it definitely has evolved. And I think I'm more appreciative of everything. You know, I think when you're younger, I remember my first Olympics being 17 and just taking it for granted and just in awe of everyone else that was there. And there's Mary Lou Retton and Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing and all these, like, Carl Lewis, these great athletes, forgetting that you're there. And then as I got older, you know, you become more appreciative. You're more mature about it. And I think my speeches have evolved over the years. I think now that I'm coaching, there's, like, a different aspect of it, too, that I add into my speeches. But, you know, I only talk about it when I have to. Like, I don't really think about what I did. Like, I'm more of a person like, okay, I'm done. What's next?
- [46:05]
Brett
You're moving forward.
- [46:06]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I don't think about what I've done unless someone talks to me about it or brings it up. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just not me.
- [46:14]
Brett
Genetics aside, though, like, you have a predisposition to be good at this sport and specifically as a sprinter, but you did do a lot of things that no one had ever done before. What is the message that you have for the athletes out there about kind of taking responsibility for their own careers and thinking about. About performance in the kind of sunset of those careers?
- [46:43]
Dara Torres
I think the biggest thing that I learned just from my age and being in the sport for so long is listen to your body. I think you always wish you can do what you wanted to do when you were younger. And when your body needs a break, you need to take breaks. I'm a big believer in learning from people. You know, when I started hiring these people to work with me, I did a lot of research on them. I tried to see what worked for them and what they've been doing with other people. And I think researching and learning what's going to work best for you is really important. And I think just loving the sport, like if you don't love it, you're not going to do well and believing in what your coach, the story that your coach has set for you. And I think I'm learning that with my kids now as a coach, letting them learn how to believe in you and what your story is for them.
- [47:39]
Brett
I have a lot of questions about the coaching part, but I want to kind of put a pin in that for now. I'm still thinking about you.
- [47:46]
Dara Torres
I don't know. You want to know how I did it? Honestly, it's hard to explain. I'm so competitive and once I'm in, I'm all in. And I'm going to do whatever I can to be the best I can be. It was rough for me because I had people making accusations and insinuations, oh, she must be like taking drugs. There's no way a 41 year old can be doing this. And you know, my philosophy is, if Jack Nicklaus can win a masters at 46 and Nolan Ryan can hit a no hitter at 44, why can't a 41 year old mom make an Olympic team? And so, you know, I immediately when that talk started to happen, I went to usada, the US Antidote, and you see, like, look, what can I do? Like, how can I prove to people that, that I'm doing this the right way? And it was hard hearing all the whispers and stuff, but they came up with in January of 08, so six months before trials, they came up with a sort of very intricate drug testing program and they took about two athletes from each sport. So it was me and Phelps who. And they didn't really talk about it either, but they took 38 vials of blood from us a couple of weeks and got a baseline and started testing us randomly and doing drug tests. Exactly. And people don't know that I did that, but I wanted to be a part of something so I can just prove that I was doing this the Right way. And I mean, I can't give an exact answer of how I did it, but it's just a passion and love for the sport and trying to do things the right way and hiring the right people to be able to work with me so I can recover and be able to swim faster.
- [49:20]
Brett
When you're 41 and you're at the Olympics in Beijing and you're in the village, I mean, did you have to like, room with teenagers and do that, do that deal, or how did that go down?
- [49:31]
Dara Torres
Well, you know, Bisel, you didn't hear the story?
- [49:33]
Brett
No, I didn't know.
- [49:34]
Dara Torres
Oh, my gosh.
- [49:34]
Brett
Was she your roommate?
- [49:35]
Dara Torres
Well, so we get to the village and, you know, I just assumed they were going to put me by myself because I'm, you know, 41 years old. And so they gave me a card, said, okay, you're rooming with Elizabeth Beisel and, and Alison Schmidt. I'm like, okay, whatever. You know, they're young kids. Maybe they want me to mentor them or anything. And so I get to the bottom of the dorm and I start to walk up to like, the third or fourth floor and I hear this, like, screaming and laughing. I'm like, what the heck is this? And I look in there and there's Elizabeth and Alice. And I'm like, oh, I am out. You know, I can't room with like, teenagers, like 15 and 17 year old. Like, I just can't. And I said to them, like, no offense to you guys, you guys are like my kids. But. But there's, you know, you guys are in a different, like, headspace than I am. And this is your first Olympic Games and I need to have a room by myself. So they ended up giving me a room to myself. But yeah, initially they had me with a 15 and 17 year old. Yeah.
- [50:29]
Brett
And how did that work? Like, being that much older, like, it's almost like a, you know, weird museum curiosity, you know, for these young kids. But you have all this wisdom, you know, I'm sure, like, they're all like, you know, tell us, you know, what you've learned and discovered. Or are they, you know, or is that. Was that not what it was?
- [50:47]
Dara Torres
You know, I mean, it was. There were definitely times that they come up to you. But I'll never Forget, specifically in 2000, we were at our training camp and I think, okay, I'm 33. Like, hopefully the young kids want to come up to me and ask me stuff. And I get this like, knock on my door. I'm like, hey, what's up, like, you know, Darren, want to ask you some questions. I'm like, great. Come in. You know, and the girls come in, and. And they have this, like, Cosmopolitan magazine, and they're like, hey, in here, it says that, you know, they give condoms out at the Olympic Village. Is that true? I'm like, that's what you guys want to know? If they give, like, condoms out the Olympic Village? And they're like, of course that's what.
- [51:21]
Brett
They want to know.
- [51:21]
Dara Torres
Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, they do. Okay, get out. You know, or whatever. It was just, you know, but. But, you know, you have to remember that when you get to the Olympic Games, you're that great of an athlete that you sort of know what to do if you're there. You know, there are definitely some younger kids that I try to mentor a little bit, and, you know, I really enjoy that. I. I. Even if they're not Americans, I'd have other, like, other athletes come up to me and say, how did you do this? And, like, what did you do for your weight training? And, you know, which was really cool. A few athletes would do that, but, you know, it's. You're already there, and you kind of know what you're doing. You don't want to mess with what you already have done. I guess I think the biggest thing is just, like, what to expect when you get to Olympic Village and get to the Olympic Games.
- [52:09]
Brett
Being this insanely competitive person, like, A plus plus, you know, sort of like, type A plus plus. Is that, like, does that make it, like, are you competing at everything all the time with everybody?
- [52:20]
Dara Torres
Everything?
- [52:20]
Brett
Is that, like, a challenge for your friendships?
- [52:23]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it's like, how does that work?
- [52:26]
Dara Torres
I'm a lot more, like, mellow about it, but inside, it just boils inside.
- [52:29]
Rich Roll
What is the motivation?
- [52:30]
Brett
Is it, like, to be the best? Is it to beat other people? Is it just, like, you know, I want to master all things? Like, where is that coming from?
- [52:38]
Dara Torres
I. I think it's, like, in my blood.
- [52:40]
Brett
Like, you have nothing to prove.
- [52:42]
Dara Torres
No, I. I don't, but, like, here's a perfect example. So one of the things I like to do with my college teams, I like to take each class out, and so I took the freshman out to do something fun, and I'm like, hey, we're gonna go. Go karting. They're like, awesome. So the. The freshman were, like, talking smack in the car as I was, you know, driving them. They're like, oh, this is gonna be great. We're gonna, like, haul ass. And this And I'm like, okay. You know, I'm just like, sitting there, driving the car, you know, whatever. And we get there, and the minute my helmet's on and the goggles are on, I get in that car. I'm like, screw everyone. And I'm like, you know, And I. And these poor little freshmen, like, I'm just, like, whipping them in the wall. And you hear no bumping on the thing. And I'm like, I don't care. You know, in every lap, like, I had to win. And it was like, you know, they're 18. Who cares? You know? But it's like this blood boils in me where I have to help it. No, I can't help it. And I felt. And they were like, walking with their. Especially the boys. They were kind of walking with their tail between their legs. I'm like, I'm sorry, you know.
- [53:34]
Brett
Did they know that you had won the Long Beach Grand Prix?
- [53:38]
Dara Torres
I think they looked it up afterwards.
- [53:42]
Brett
You know, what you're doing behind the wheel.
- [53:44]
Dara Torres
Well, like, you were in a race, so that's not fair, you know. And I'm like, okay.
- [53:49]
Brett
Oh, my God.
- [53:50]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I'm very competitive.
- [53:53]
Brett
There's no off switch, is there?
- [53:54]
Dara Torres
It really isn't.
- [53:55]
Rich Roll
So here you are.
- [53:56]
Brett
We're the same age, and, you know, on top of, like, you know, the comeback story and all the Olympic stuff and the medals and blah, blah, blah.
- [54:04]
Rich Roll
You just might be like the.
- [54:06]
Brett
The fittest 57, 58 year old. I don't know how old you, like, 58? Yeah, 58 year old. Like, not woman, but, like, person in the world, like, you're insanely fit. And these videos that you share on Instagram with your workouts and, like, the focus and the dedication and the consistency that, like, setting aside, like, intentional recovery, like, there's no days off.
- [54:28]
Dara Torres
I don't know. Like, I flew from Singapore last night, so I had to take that day off.
- [54:32]
Brett
But are you the person who's, like, on the plane, you know, getting up every 20 minutes to, like, do burpees and stuff?
- [54:37]
Dara Torres
Let me tell you, do lunges down. That's funny. I just posted something about that. Like I said, there's no way I'm going to last 13 and a half hours from Boston to Japan, you know, without doing some kind of lunges or something in the aisle? No, I, like, I think I was like that a lot younger. I don't think I'm like that as much anymore. I do. You have to remember, like, we trained, what, like, four to six hours a day? Like it was insane. So to be, to do a workout every day that's like 45 minute long. 45 minutes long. I don't think that that's that bad, you know. So I'm going from something where it was my whole entire life to something where it's just like 45 minutes to an hour out of my day. But there's something about like this morning I was up at 6am and I went to the hotel gym to work out. Just because it wakes me up, it, you know, sort of releases like any kind of tension I have. It just starts my day off where I just feel great the rest of the day. If I get a workout in.
- [55:33]
Brett
Is there a strict regimen or routine like setting aside travel, like when you're just at home that are, what are like the non negotiables and what are the kind of things that you mix in some flexibility because you're like a group fitness person also like you do.
- [55:52]
Dara Torres
All kinds of stuff, you know, I do, I like to do stuff on my own. But I, you gotta remember like I've been coached my whole life. So to have someone tell me what to do is much easier than for me to go to the gym and get in a habit of doing the same things over and over, which I think a lot of people do. You know, like they'll do a workout like oh this is great. And they'll just keep doing it and do it and you get to a point where you're plateau and you're not gonna to, you're not going to see changes in your body anymore. And so you know, for me, I like someone like getting on my ass and saying, hey, like you're not doing this right or you're not. You know, I thrive on that kind of stuff rather than just going to the gym by myself and doing something.
- [56:25]
Brett
And what is, what are the differences now versus like 41, like setting aside like being you know, like, like competitive at the elite level. Like in terms of how you have to approach your recovery, your body, your strength training, like what, what is, what have you discovered like works and what have you had to let go of or like adapt? Like I'm looking for like I want to know, you know, this is, this.
- [56:50]
Rich Roll
Is for the fellow Gen Xers out there.
- [56:52]
Brett
Like you know, like I'm coming off spinal fusion surgery.
- [56:55]
Dara Torres
Wow.
- [56:55]
Brett
So I'm really like, I can't do anything, you know, and I'm just looking at my body decompose in real time and just, and thinking about like the road back to some degree of some modicum of fitness. And I know how difficult, how that's harder now than it used to be. You can't just bounce back in the way that it's brutal.
- [57:15]
Dara Torres
Yeah, it really is brutal. And you have to know that. I feel like when you have to take time off or you have a surgery like you had, you lose muscle a lot quicker than you used to, and it takes a lot longer to be able to put it back on again. And I think that's the biggest obstacle I think I've seen as I've gotten older, I have starting to get a little loose skin in places. Stuff that, you know, there's nothing you can do about you're aging. But, you know, as long as I can continue to work out, like, if. If there's something that you can do that, you know, post surgery that maybe doesn't include your back or your spine, you're doing lower body or like. I would always find things to do when I. After I'd have. I've had many surgeries, so after I'd have a surgery, like, if I had knee surgery, I would, you know, put one foot on top of the other and do push ups where I wasn't using that leg. You know, like, there was a. Always things I would try to do to take place of not being able to do something because of an injury or something else that happened. So I always find, like, there's no excuses. I mean, I had pneumonia for like two and a half weeks, so I had to take like a week off because I was literally like, on my ass.
- [58:23]
Rich Roll
But there was a week and a.
- [58:24]
Brett
Half of brutal pneumonia.
- [58:26]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I was like. I think my head was, like, spinning. But, you know, you have to listen to your body. Body. But I. A lot of people will make excuses because something's hurt or, you know, you don't have enough time. But you can always make time to work out.
- [58:40]
Rich Roll
It's easier to stay in shape than.
- [58:42]
Brett
To get in shape.
- [58:43]
Dara Torres
Yes.
- [58:44]
Brett
Yeah.
- [58:44]
Dara Torres
100.
- [58:45]
Brett
Yeah. What's the worst shape that you've ever been in? Like how, like how, how. What's the, like, the most that you've ever let it go? It's like almost nothing, probably.
- [58:53]
Dara Torres
Well, I'll let you know when I get to that.
- [58:54]
Brett
See, like, that's the. That's what I was looking for.
- [59:01]
Rich Roll
Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know, it's funny, we don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life. It's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes. I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run.
- [59:23]
Brett
Constantly shoving my glasses back up my.
- [59:26]
Rich Roll
Nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them, or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense? Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first, but not at the cost of fashion. I should say helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions, with everyday frames designed for movement. Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology. Patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions. And they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil. Super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is is next level razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20% off your order with code rich roll@roka.com that's R O-K-A dot com.
- [60:36]
Brett
I want you to pause for a moment because I want to tell you about my friend rj. Now, you might know this guy as.
- [60:41]
Rich Roll
The founder, founder and CEO of Rivian. He is certainly that, but he's really so much more. He's one of those rare people who.
- [60:48]
Brett
Actually walks the walk.
- [60:51]
Rich Roll
I've watched him over many years, and I know him to be this incredibly deeply committed person, committed to preserving wild spaces while also inspiring people to explore responsibly. And that's basically Rivian in a nutshell. Their mission, keep the world adventurous forever, comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet, these are not separate things. They're the same thing. Here's what gets me. Every generation deserves wild places to roam, to climb higher, to run farther, to be changed by the journey. But obviously that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there. So, yeah, Rivian builds electric clothes vehicles, but really they're building something bigger, momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature, but actually inspires us to protect it. It's like, why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves?
- [61:51]
Brett
And that's why I'm so proud to.
- [61:53]
Rich Roll
Align forces in partnership with Rivian. This isn't just about transportation. It's about building a world worth exploring for our kids, for their kids, and for generations to come.
- [62:08]
Brett
You strike me as a very devoted parent. How old is your daughter?
- [62:11]
Dara Torres
She's 19.
- [62:12]
Brett
19, like, extremely attentive, caring, and loving parent. But how does the whole competitive thing work with raising a child? How does that not spill over in sort of toxic ways?
- [62:26]
Dara Torres
Well, the minute she turned 18, then it was anyone's game.
- [62:29]
Brett
Okay, like, are you compet with her, you mean? Or what does that mean?
- [62:32]
Dara Torres
She would, like, race me to the kitchen. I'm like, oh, my God, she's me. You know, she started to, like, be like that a little bit, you know, but the thing is, is that, like, I know exactly what she's thinking because I was there. And so, like, even going to the elevator, we were in Singapore, and we're both kind of walking, and then all of a sudden, like, we raced to touch the button, you know, and so. And I knew she was going to do that. So, like, we definitely have, like, competitive moments, but. But that's sort of also. You have to take a step back and, you know, but like I said, it's a free for all once you turn 18, it's like, I'll compete with a renaissance.
- [63:04]
Brett
Is she an athlete?
- [63:05]
Dara Torres
She used to play lacrosse and then was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. Had part of her small intestine taken out. So then she stopped playing lacrosse. So now she is, like, a sports fanatic nut that knows every sport, every stat. She goes to Penn State. She does photography at their online publication for. For ice hockey and wrestling. And I think she just got assigned football this next year. So she's a sports nut, but in a different way now.
- [63:35]
Brett
Yeah. That's cool. So walk me through this decision to get into coaching. You're an athlete, a competitor your whole life, and never have kind of showed any interest, really, in getting involved in coaching. So I think the swimming community was like, what? Oh, wow. Like, out of the blue.
- [63:55]
Dara Torres
Like, some weren't excited about it either.
- [63:57]
Brett
Oh, really? Why is that?
- [63:58]
Dara Torres
I think there was just, like, jealousy. Well, she's not a USA swimming coach.
- [64:02]
Brett
She didn't put your dues. You didn't pay your dues because you just went right to a head coaching job instead of working your way up.
- [64:07]
Dara Torres
A lot of people that weren't thrilled with it.
- [64:09]
Brett
That's interesting.
- [64:09]
Dara Torres
Which, you know, is fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. You know, I think being coached by some of the best coaches in the world that have a combined total of 18 NCAA titles. They've coached over 50 Olympians and been to over 15 Olympic Games. Gives me a little bit of credibility. You know, I had a little issue and Pete, people really took like negatively it when I did a swim swam interview and said I didn't even know how to use a stopwatch except when I was younger. Yeah. And I got such negative feedback from that. But it was a joke because my. And I didn't explain that, that my associate head coach Bruno had given me like the Rolls Royces of stopwatches. It wasn't just start, stop and reset. It was and split. It was like three buttons and it took like four times to get to a certain thing and I'm like, oh my God. Like, it was just so confusing. But people, I was just joking around and took it the wrong way. But I love it. One of the reasons why I took it is because I really want to give back to the sport. I want to teach these kids stuff that I learned not just in the pool or in the gym, but also mentally how to deal with something. And I think the most rewarding part of it is knowing that you've made a difference in someone's life. And like the perfect example is I had a kid who was a senior this past year who really struggled at our mid season meet and he, he was leading the lanes and everything and decided like, okay, I didn't do well here and I'm just not going to lead the lane anymore. And I came up to him after a week, I said, what are you doing? And he said, well, I've come to the conclusion that we had this past year off and coming back. I just know I'm not going to make the ACC team. They only let 18 of each gender go. And he said, so I'm just going to enjoy my last year. And I'm like, no. I go, why are you saying you're not going to make the ACC team? He said, I just know I'm not fast enough. After that meet, I'm like, you have three more months to train. I said, it's not in my head. You're not making it. And so then he started to get back into it and then after he made the team, does his best times, best splits ever. And he came up to me after me and thanked me so much and for believing in him, but his mom came up to me and said, you know, he's worked with so many coaches and the fact that you can get through to him mentally was like the happiest moment for a Mom. To be able to see that with their child. And just. That was like, oh, my God, this is why I'm doing it. You know, just. And you're not going to reach everyone. You're not going to be able to help. But if there's some kids that you can help and, you know, you're gonna, like, you know, leave a lasting imprint on, you know, that's the most satisfying thing to me ever. And I think the one. It's funny because when I got interviewed to coach at Boston College, you know, I went through the whole process, you know, three interviews, and one of the questions they asked me was, if there was one word that can describe what you want your kids to come out of your program going into the next chapter in their lives, like, what would it be? And I say confidence. Like, that's really what. What I want to teach my kids, is to have the confidence in the pool that will be able to trickle out into other aspects in their lives.
- [67:09]
Brett
Translate over the remainder of their life. What was it about Boston College? It's a very interesting choice. I think one would expect, or imagine that if you were to become interested in coaching, that you would go to Florida or Texas or maybe Stanford or these places where you had trained in the past. Real legacy swimming programs.
- [67:34]
Dara Torres
I reached out to a couple teams, and there wasn't really anything available. And I was like, you know what? Like, as I've talked throughout this interview with you, is like, I love challenges and the fact that they had an off year the year before, they're at the bottom of the acc. There are kids that I hadn't recruited. You know, there was just so. And there's no scholarships. So I'm like, well, can't get any better. Like, you have nowhere to go but up with that, you know? And so I wanted to be able to come in and make a difference with these kids, but also somehow start trying to inch up towards the bottom of the acc.
- [68:06]
Brett
I didn't realize they didn't have scholarships.
- [68:09]
Dara Torres
So it's really hard.
- [68:10]
Brett
That doesn't apply to football and hockey.
- [68:13]
Dara Torres
There's a few sports that don't have scholarships at Boston College.
- [68:15]
Brett
It's just a funding. It's a funding issue.
- [68:17]
Dara Torres
Yeah, Title IX funding, like, a lot of stuff.
- [68:20]
Brett
Boston College is a very interesting place. I think I texted you as much, but, like, I was just there. I was in Boston for a week. I had some work stuff, but also I had my daughter, and she's going into her senior year, and I was like, let's.
- [68:37]
Dara Torres
She's.
- [68:37]
Brett
A California kid. She's never seen the east coast kind of college thing. And I was like, all right, well, we'll go do some tours. Right. And the first one was Boston College, which was kind of like a mind blower. Cause it's just nothing like you would imagine growing up in Los Angeles. It's sort of like the. Everything you imagine, kind of like an upper tier, really good northeast kind of college university would look like with the impeccably manicured lawns and all the Harry Potter library and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But it's curious because it's kind of a small college, but it's also kind of a university and it has these amazing sports facilities and sports programs. Like, it's. Isn't it like the women's hockey team, like one is two A's or champion.
- [69:30]
Dara Torres
Yeah, they're lacrosse.
- [69:31]
Rich Roll
One is two A lacrosse.
- [69:32]
Brett
Right. And like, you know, we're old enough to remember Doug Flutie and all of that.
- [69:37]
Dara Torres
Right. The statue's right there in front. Yeah.
- [69:40]
Brett
And the whole kind of like Jesuit thing, which is a very interesting kind of philosophical approach to education that I quite like. It was funny because my daughter was like, what is happening here? Anyway, she's got a punk rock T shirt on, Doc Martens or whatever, and there's a lot of guys with pop collars and lacrosse or whatever. But it was cool. And I had completely spaced that you were the coach there for some reason. Otherwise I would have definitely kind of pinged you and would have loved to. To have like, you know, seen you and gotten like an insider's view of what's going on over there. But in terms of its swimming program, it's not like we're not talking about like, Auburn or like these other places that you hear about when you hear about NC2A swimming.
- [70:24]
Dara Torres
Yeah. Like I said, I think it's just. It was the challenge of it. And, you know, they took a chance on me to come in and make a change with this program, change the team culture. We ended up having 100 best times ever last year, so we did really well.
- [70:40]
Brett
Now you get to recruit.
- [70:41]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I have my first recruiting class coming in in a few weeks. And, you know, I'm going out to junior nationals to do some recruiting. And yeah, it's. It's a lot. But, you know, it's funny because I dropped my daughter off at Penn State last August on a Friday and I'm like, ah, empty nester. You know, it's going to be so quiet and then like three days later on a Monday, school starts. I inherit 54 kids. So I had a three day empty nesting. I had three days of empty nesting. Then it was like, is it like.
- [71:14]
Brett
Friday Night Lights, Coach Taylor, where they're like knocking on your door with some crisis in the middle of the night because something happened?
- [71:21]
Dara Torres
I do leave my phone on, my school work phone on in case there's an emergency. But we have our little ups and downs and stuff. Typical college stuff that happens, but nothing outrageous or craz. But you have to remember I'm dealing with 54 different personalities. That's what Richard Quick comes into my head. Like, okay, how do you think this person deals with this? So it was definitely a little bit to get used to. And also just knowing who these kids were. Cause I didn't recruit them. So I took screenshots of all their Instagram profiles. So I knew who was who when I got there because I didn't know names. And with the caps, they didn't have the names on the caps and they're swimming. And I'm looking at my associate head coach, Bruce, and I'm like, do you know who this person? I have no idea. You know, and so we're like, hey, you, like, your elbow has to do this or, you know, we didn't know names for like two, three weeks, so that was hard too.
- [72:15]
Brett
You have worked with so many of the world's greatest coaches over the years. So I, you know, obviously you have an appreciation for great coaching, but what, what is it about coaching that maybe you fail to appreciate before, you know, having to actually do it yourself? Well, I'm sure there's a lot of things, things that you discovered and learned about this world that maybe you took for granted or didn't quite fully understand.
- [72:41]
Dara Torres
I think there's a couple things. Number one, on the college level, I didn't know how much administrative work you had to do. I don't have assistants, or I mean, like administrative assistants. Like, I have Coach Bruno and coach Chris and that's it. And Chris is a volunteer assistant. And so. And we have now, this year. Now we have like 48 kids. And so after like two weeks, my sports administrator comes up to me. He's like, you know, when I hired you, I really underestimated how little you know about administrative work. I'm like, I had an agent, like, I don't know what you want from me. Like, I don't know anything. And so there's all these different platforms. You have to log, like, every phone call, every email that you make with A recruit. You have to put on a week ahead of time what the schedule is for the kids. And if you change it the day before, you're not allowed to do that. Like you have to give them 25. There are so many things, like you are only allowed to coach 20 hours a week, which, God, I wish we had that when we were swimming in college. There's just so many different things that I didn't know about. I think from a different perspective, aside from the administrative stuff, being able to watch all your, like if you're having a dual meet, obviously it's an eight lane pool, you have four swimmers you're watching and you have to be able to watch like everything that's going on and maybe one's so far ahead than the other and you're to trying, trying to. So they come up to you afterwards, you're like, okay, what did I do wrong? Or what I need to work on. And that's a lot to be able to try to, you know, watch everyone and put into words, you know, what maybe someone needs to improve on in their races and stuff. So that was, I was, I think, very appreciative of how my coaches handled that out of all the years that I swam. And then also just like, I guess figuring out what works for everyone, you know, like, as we've talked about, like everyone's built differently and you know, what may work for one sprinter may not work for another sprinter. And so you have to really listen, watch and learn what works for everyone and make some switches as you're going and not just go off your workout once your workout's up. That's not just it. You may have to make changes in it. And I'm usually like, creature of habit. Okay, it's up, that's what you're doing. But you have to go with the flow.
- [74:54]
Brett
It's a challenging equation to solve when there's so many people. I mean, you have to, to be on some level a psychologist. You have to understand who these people are, what makes them tick, how to communicate with them, how to really connect with them in a meaningful way. You have to be kind of a preacher, a cheerleader to get them riled up and excited. And then in the college context, you also have to be a politician for these administrative reasons. I'm sure there's lots of personalities that you have to navigate and everybody has different agendas and stuff like that, which makes it all the more delicate.
- [75:29]
Dara Torres
My, my sports administrator, my boss has sat me down numerous times and said, okay, maybe you can Approach this like a little bit differently when, you know, you do this and I'm like, you know, thank God for you, because you couldn't just yell at me, you know, but you sit me down and talk.
- [75:42]
Brett
Very calmly to me about strategies for effective.
- [75:45]
Dara Torres
Yes. Of how to approach different. Because, you know, swimming, you know, just as a sport has been kind of been at the bottom at, you know, Boston College. And now, you know, I think there's a lot of enthusiasm and, you know, I don't want to say it's been in the bottom, you know, all the time, but it's just, you know, it's a sport that we have to sort of fight for a little bit. I remember when we first got there, you know, the trainer was like, hey, you know, you guys, we have the training room. Like, oh, we can go in. Like, the kids didn't even go in the training room before. I'm like, you never use a training room. Like, we have recovery and massages and cupping and kneeling.
- [76:22]
Brett
Cause they're like second class citizens or something like that compared to the other sports.
- [76:25]
Dara Torres
No, but it's not Boston College's fault. I think maybe the coaches didn't know that it was there. I'm always fighting for them and making sure that they're getting everything that everyone else is getting. And I think it was a process, but it wasn't necessarily Boston College. It was that the kids didn't know. And so I had to say, hey, listen, you have all, all these availabilities for you to be able to use a training room or go to the sports psychologist or do whatever you guys need, you need to take advantage of it. And so that's something that's a little bit new, I think, for the swimmers. They didn't really realize or know that they can go in there and do that.
- [77:03]
Brett
But it's gotta be exciting for Boston College to have. I mean, you have to be the most decorated coach at the university by a long shot, right? So there has to be some buzz and some at a minimum, like, curiosity around, you know, you just finished, you finished your first year, you're about to start your second year there. Like when it came to the dual meets, just like, oh, we, we need to go see what's going on over here. Like, you know, we have Dera Torres now. What's happening?
- [77:28]
Dara Torres
Well, you know, it's funny because our first season, we didn't have a schedule when I got hired. And I got hired like maybe a month and a half before school started. And I was. And so When I got the job, I'm like, hey, what should I do first? He's like, get a schedule. I'm like, okay, so do you have someone who has numbers or the teams that. He's like, nope, it's all you. And I'm like, oh my God. So I was cold calling coaches and I'm like, hey, can you put us on your schedule? What am I saying? Yeah, I didn't know what to do. And so our first year scheduling mean.
- [77:56]
Brett
Like dual meet schedule, like there weren't.
- [77:58]
Dara Torres
Any schedule things, there was nothing.
- [78:00]
Brett
And like it's the coach's responsibility to set that up.
- [78:04]
Dara Torres
Yeah.
- [78:04]
Brett
Oh, that's weird. I would have never thought that I.
- [78:06]
Dara Torres
Had to do that. And I'm like, you know, so I'm reaching out to all these schools and they already had their schedule like a year in advance. So we only had one home meet last year against BU and that was it. So this year we have a couple more and we're adding more as we go along and we're adding a lot tougher teams too as our schedule progresses and the years progress. But yeah, so I don't really know. I mean there were a lot of people that showed up for that first meet which was great. But hopefully we'll get more buzz and get it going. But I'm super excited about our incoming classes coming in. I think to it's going, going to be great, like great meshing with the team now and just the attitude of these kids, they're young, they're hungry, they want us from fast, they want to train hard. So I think it's going to really just make it sort of like a domino effect on my team.
- [78:56]
Brett
How many NC2A Division 1 head swimming coaches are there that are women right now?
- [79:03]
Dara Torres
You know what, it's funny because I reached out to Mel before I got hired so I could throw that in interview, you know, and he wasn't 100% sure, but I. Mel Stewart. Yeah, Mel Stewart. Because he has all the stats on everything, you know. And so, you know, I reached out to him and he gave me a few names but there was definitely under 10. Like I can't think of like 10 head coach DM.
- [79:25]
Brett
I mean the one that sticks out in my mind. What's her name? Tara.
- [79:28]
Dara Torres
Terry McKevan.
- [79:29]
Rich Roll
Tara Mc.
- [79:30]
Brett
She's no longer at California. The legend. But she's no longer coaching.
- [79:33]
Dara Torres
Right? Not cow. So there are female coaches that coach women but I don't know how.
- [79:39]
Brett
Yeah, but not full programs like you're coaching the men and the women.
- [79:42]
Dara Torres
Yeah, yeah.
- [79:44]
Brett
Well, hopefully this is. You're disrupting things again.
- [79:46]
Dara Torres
I know you can't help.
- [79:49]
Brett
There is, I'm curious around a sensitive issue, as we both know, like, USA Swimming has a little bit of a, you know, checkered past when it comes to coaching abuse. And, you know, I feel like you're somebody with a very strong parental instinct. Like, how do you think about, you know, that checkered past, what's being done to course correct it? Like, I don't even know, like, what the changes are, what that looks like right now. I just know, like, there was a lot of bad stuff for a while and maybe not the best strategy in, like, dealing with it and resolving it and creating kind of a safer system.
- [80:28]
Dara Torres
Oh, USA Swimming is doing an awesome job now of creating a safer system they have for coaches online. You have to pass their safe sport tests. You're not allowed on deck unless you have that and you've passed and done background checks and stuff. So it's a lot more intricate than it was back. They didn't really have, I think, a system back when we were swimming. But, I mean, I've gotten calls about coaches from, like, way back when. Hey, this never happened to you, you know, and so they're, they're, they're doing their due diligence and doing what they're supposed to do to try to keep the sport safe. So it's a lot different now than it was back in the day. And, you know, if my daughter was a swimmer, I'd feel very comfortable with her. That's good to know, being on a team.
- [81:12]
Brett
Yeah, but meaning, like, they're still sort of investigating things that happened a very, very long time ago.
- [81:17]
Dara Torres
Yeah.
- [81:18]
Brett
Yeah. Wow, that's good to hear. Yeah, yeah. Because it, you know, there was a period there where it wasn't so great.
- [81:25]
Dara Torres
No, it wasn't. And it's a lot different now. Things are changing. Yeah. For sure. For the better.
- [81:30]
Brett
I want to get back to, like, Gen X Fitness.
- [81:35]
Dara Torres
Let me show you my abs already. Nose.
- [81:37]
Brett
I mean. Yeah, like, well, they're like, they're like, you know, they're all time. We all know what you're doing, Dara. And I'm thinking of the person, you know, who's kind of in our general age range who, you know, maybe has had a history with fitness and has let it go a little bit. What in your experience have, you know, because you, you do all these different, you know, you know, you have. Aren't you like a co owner in some bars, bar studios and Stuff like that. And like Pilates and like bands and all kinds of stuff. Like, what have you found? And these things are always changing. You know what I mean? What have you found, like, effective or like a kind of, oh, like maybe you should try this. This is like really cool. And people aren't talking about it or is it just basic foundational, boring stuff?
- [82:21]
Dara Torres
You know, we teased about me taking group classes and stuff, but there's something about having people next to you to be motivating but also not feel intimidated. Like a lot of times you go to these classes and you may not never tried it before, but it's not about what someone else thinks. It's about you and doing the workout. And so what motivates me is having someone tell me what to do. I, I like to mix it up. I think people get in a rut we talked about earlier, of doing the same thing over and over again, or they like that, but you need to mix it up a little bit, even mix up what you're doing. So, for example, I'll do solid core three days a week, which is Pilates on steroids, basically. It's a crazy workout, but they start with beginner classes if you want to learn how to do it. But it works your overall body and especially your core. It's crazy how much it works your core. But they do different muscle groups each day. It varies what they want to do. That's a great 45, actually 50 minute workout. I take boxing classes at rumble boxing, which is a lot of fun. I actually have my kids, we go my team and we'll do rumble boxing workouts instead of dry land, just to mix it up a little bit. It's great.
- [83:37]
Brett
Wow. That has to be the only collegiate swimming pool program that is. That is like going to a boxing class.
- [83:43]
Dara Torres
It's fun. Like you have to mix it up with the kids. You know, it's, it's the, it's really about, you know, you have your academics. Boston College is 12% acceptance rates. To get in, you have your training, you have to mix it up a little bit. And as you know, like, it gets very boring and monotonous and, you know, I think it's just fun to do some different things. So, yeah, so rumble boxing is a lot of fun. It's bags on one side, a bench with weights on the other side. And you keep switching, doing rounds and switching and switching stuff. And they play loud music and I love that. I'll go and work out at our facility at Boston College. I take spin classes. You Know, I just, to me it's again, about mixing it up to make it fun because it gets really boring after a while. But, you know, you talk about a lot of Gen Xers, like how, you know, we might have already worked out, but now we've kind of like slacking a little bit. There's also people that haven't really worked out a lot at all in their lives. And it's that intimidation practice. The intimidation notion of like, I'm too intimidated to go to a gym. I've never done this. But, you know, hire a trainer just for once, learn how to do the moves. Or, you know, there's so many, like group, group classes that are less expensive than going and, you know, trying to do private lessons if you don't have, you can't afford it or whatever, don't have the money. There's different ways you can work out. If you work, you know, at a building that has stairs, take stairs. You know, that would be great to do. Do like when you're coming in and out of the building, if you're at home or a stay at home mom, like, take cans of food and do biceps, do triceps, do like, arm lifts. There's so many things that you can do to work out. But don't worry about other people. Don't worry about how someone else looks or whatever. It's about yourself and being in the zone and doing what's best for you because eventually you will get there. But there is always that intimidating factor that, you know, people. There's a lot of reason why people don't want to go to the gym.
- [85:35]
Brett
Yeah, it's, it's scary to go to the gym when you're out of shape.
- [85:39]
Dara Torres
Right.
- [85:40]
Brett
And even scarier to put yourself in a group fitness class where, you know, kind of, there's, there's a, everybody's measuring themselves against each other. Like it just, that, that, like, that's a dial click.
- [85:50]
Dara Torres
But everyone started once at some point.
- [85:52]
Brett
So yeah, it's hard to like, get out of that, you know, that, that kind of thing. When was the last, last time you got up on the blocks and timed yourself for a 50 freestyle?
- [86:02]
Dara Torres
I think what I probably like three.
- [86:04]
Brett
Days ago or no, no, no, probably.
- [86:06]
Dara Torres
When I did master's at, at, at Harvard when I lived there from 2012 to 2016, probably, but.
- [86:11]
Rich Roll
Oh, really?
- [86:12]
Brett
So it had. Oh, come on. You don't like, every once in a while be like, let's see what I can throw down?
- [86:16]
Dara Torres
Never again.
- [86:17]
Brett
You never have your kids, like, here, you take this stopwatch. I don't know how to work and, like, time me.
- [86:22]
Dara Torres
They want to. They want to want me to go out there, you know, and there's. It's funny because there's sometimes when they'll be doing something, I'm like, God, I can even do that. And they're like, no, you can't coach. And then, like, they'll all leave, and then I'll get in the pool and I'll say, okay. Like, I'll say to lifeblood, hey, you.
- [86:35]
Brett
Gotta film this after they're gone.
- [86:36]
Dara Torres
You don't want.
- [86:37]
Brett
You don't want them to see?
- [86:38]
Dara Torres
No.
- [86:38]
Brett
Well, they're gonna listen to this. So now they know. So you guys next you're gonna be. By the time you hear this, you're probably back in school. Like, you know, maybe, like, hide in the corners or whatever after practice.
- [86:51]
Dara Torres
I don't know.
- [86:51]
Brett
So you do. So you quietly, secretly.
- [86:54]
Dara Torres
I do secretly. All right.
- [86:55]
Brett
Yeah. You know, like, I knew it.
- [86:56]
Dara Torres
You're too competitive not to competitive.
- [86:58]
Rich Roll
So here's the thing. Like, when are you going to go.
- [87:00]
Brett
Back to Masters Nationals and, like, just wipe the record books clean for your age group? Or is that not interesting because it's not hard enough for you?
- [87:08]
Dara Torres
No, it's not that. It's just that I. Well, you should know, like, most swimmers and you talked about this earlier, like, once you're done swimming, like, that's it. Like, you really have no desire to do it again.
- [87:18]
Brett
Yeah, but that's not you.
- [87:19]
Dara Torres
I know, but I. I haven't gotten to that point yet where, I mean, I started to get in a little bit this year after, like, once the kids were out of the pool, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get in and, like, you know, swim a little bit. But I don't know, like, I. I mean, if it was an outdoor pool and 80 degree out, that might be a little bit different, but, you know, being indoors and it's cold and, you.
- [87:36]
Brett
Know, but here's the thing.
- [87:38]
Rich Roll
Here.
- [87:38]
Brett
Here's what I think you should do.
- [87:39]
Dara Torres
What should I do, Rich?
- [87:40]
Brett
Work out like a maniac, but, like, never get in the pool. Like, do all your Pilates and core and stuff, like a box and whatever. And, like, just don't even get wet once and then just show up at Masters Nationals and get up on the blocks and swim a 50 freestyle and see what happens.
- [87:54]
Dara Torres
Oh, my gosh.
- [87:55]
Brett
I think you would be just fine.
- [87:57]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I don't know.
- [87:59]
Brett
That would even make it more fun.
- [88:02]
Dara Torres
We'll see challenges there, I guess.
- [88:04]
Brett
We'll see. Our culture right now is obsessed with longevity. Like, there's all these breakthroughs in longevity science and there's a lot of galaxy brains out there talking about, you know, lifespan extension and reaching escape velocity. And we're going to be able to, you know, repair ourselves and live forever and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, these are people who are, who are kind of out of the box thinkers and disruptors like yourself, but also like, it's like, all right, is this like, how much of this is coming from a place of fear rather than like really kind of like engaging with life? And are those 100 supplements that you're taking every day really doing anything? And when I try to make sense of this conversation and what's real and what's kind of like projection, I look to the people who are actually thriving and vital in their later years, and you're certainly one example of that. So in this conversation around longevity and health span extension, like what, setting aside, like, fitness routines, like, what are your other practices that you believe have been important in contributing to, like, you know, remaining vital and young and energetic?
- [89:20]
Dara Torres
I don't know. I guess I take care of myself. Like, I take care of my skin, I take care of my hair, like all that stuff. But honestly, I eat just normally. Like, you guys gave me a menu before we started taping and they're like, oh, here's some stuff. And it's all vegan. It's all this. I'm like, oh, I go, this is so healthy. And I eat healthy stuff. But I also don't deprive myself of things. So I think that's where I got in trouble when I had an eating disorder is depriving myself of food to the point where then you want it so badly after a while that you eat a lot more than you should. So I eat my fruits and vegetables. I try to eat healthy, but I also have my snacks that I eat sometimes times, and we'll have dessert every now and then. And like last night I had two scoops of ice cream. You know, it just, I don't know, I. I just try to enjoy life, you know, and, you know, do the things I need to do to make myself healthy, but also not deprived so much. Where you're just always in a state of wanting something and, you know, just being calm about it.
- [90:22]
Brett
Having a, having a balanced, healthy approach to things amidst your very out of balance competitiveness that keeps you on the.
- [90:29]
Dara Torres
Edge, that makes up for it.
- [90:31]
Brett
The eating disorder thing, I mean, that was, was that Back, like, during the University of Florida days or, like, but it spanned. It went on for a while, though, right? Like, what was happening there?
- [90:42]
Dara Torres
So my freshman year, weight was a big issue, as, you know, like, coaches were very much into being lean and fit, and, you know, my body was changing. I was becoming a woman. And, and it just wasn't where I think my coach wanted it to be. And he was a little bit of a stickler for weighing us every week and seeing if he wants us at a certain weight. And every week we have to lose a couple pounds, and it just wasn't happening. And someone introduced me to binging and purging, and one thing led to another, and it became an addictive thing. And so I had it for about five years. But then you don't just get, you get over the physical part of it. But then there's the mental aspect of, of still having some cravings for stuff and, like, do I do this or don't, or how do I, you know, or being intimidated of certain foods, because that's what you are, binging and purging, and you don't want to get heavy if you do that. And so really, I, I, I've struggled for years with that. And then, I mean, I, I had my disorder in, started in 85, and then it went through until about, like, 91. And then after that, I didn't do the physical part of it, but I was still mentally sort of dealing with it. And when I got to switch one with Richard Quick, he was like, listen, I know you had an eating disorder. I want you to learn about the Atkins diet and the protein and how you can, like, mix things and maybe, you know, not have as much bread, but you have more protein and, you know, so he kind of taught me how to re eat again, and I finally got over my fear of foods, which took a long time.
- [92:09]
Rich Roll
The eating disorder thing is trickier to.
- [92:12]
Brett
Understand with the elite athlete, because there is that, like, hey, I have to be at a certain way weight to perform at my best. And oftentimes there's a coach who's reinforcing that. But fundamentally, and for the average person who suffers for that, it's an affliction of trying to exert control over your life when your life feels out of control. This is something that makes me feel like I have agency or whatever. And I'm just curious, how did that work with you when you try to make some sense of, like, why you were doing this to yourself? Like, because you were young, you were, like, very successful at A young age, you kind of moved away from home. Like, there is. I would imagine there's some disorientation, you know, with trying to make sense of that world and kind of being this person who was shouldering a lot of expectations and trying to live up to those expectations.
- [93:04]
Dara Torres
Yeah, well, I think for me, I felt more out of control because I didn't have control out of it. Like, it became sort of an addiction. And it just. I just kept doing it and doing it to the point where it was almost like a chemical thing that I couldn't stop. But, you know, I think the hardest thing is for my coach, and I don't blame him, because he didn't force me to do anything. But his philosophy is, the more intimidating you look on the starting blocks, the more intimidated your competitors will feel. And so he just wanted us to look lean and strong, and there's no rhyme or reason about how much weight we should lose or what we should weigh. But for me, it was. I didn't have control over it. I mean, some people, as a control thing, feeling that they're in control of their body, but I was, like, out of control with it, and it was a really dark time for me, and a rough number of years that I went through. And it's very secretive, and you don't want people to know about it, because then they'll think badly of you. And there are just so many components to it that. That really put me in a. I want to say, almost like a depression. And it took a while to come out of it, and I learned a lot from it. And I've been able to talk to younger kids and even, like, women and men who are going through it and try to help them a little bit. But for me, it was about how I looked and wanting to look a certain way. So I looked intimidating on the starting blocks.
- [94:33]
Brett
How did you get out of it?
- [94:35]
Dara Torres
So what happened was, is I moved to New York after I was done with college, and my mom kept saying, oh, you haven't had a physical in a while. I think she knew, like, some. She knew for sure something was going on. And so I think she wanted me to just go talk to this doctor. So I went and got a physical. And at the end, she's like, oh, I want to ask you, like, a bunch of questions. We always do this with all the patients. And I'm like, okay. And. Which I've never had done after that, but yes. And so she asked me a whole bunch of questions, and one of them was. Was like, have you ever binged and purge? I'm like, no. You know, and so then I left the office and I felt so bad for lying. I called her back, I said, hey, like, I do binge and purge and you know, I don't know what to do about it or whatever. And so she set me up with a psychiatrist to go talk to about it. And slowly I started to like. I mean, there, I guess there are other factors that, you know, with having low self esteem about certain situations that might have happened in my life and stuff, you know, it, it really helped me sort of dig myself out of it and not become so addictive. But I made it get to the point where I'd walk by a window and see something in the New York City window and be like, oh God, it looks so good and go in and then binge and purge because I ate too much of it, you know. And so, so it was, it was a very long process to get over. But I think initially going to, you know, talk to the psychiatrist and sort of get me on the right track to deal with the emotional part of it, it really helped.
- [95:52]
Brett
Yeah. I mean, it was, it's, it's, it's good you, like called yourself out. You were like, it's so funny. We want to lie to our therapists and our psychologists. Like, these are the people that are here to help us.
- [96:01]
Dara Torres
Yeah. And then I'm like, well, it's not going to help if I don't.
- [96:03]
Brett
I know, I know. But still, it's like I want them to think well of us.
- [96:06]
Dara Torres
Yeah, exactly.
- [96:08]
Brett
You know, it's crazy.
- [96:09]
Dara Torres
Yeah.
- [96:10]
Brett
Your big thing is, is that like, nobody should put an age limit on their dreams. This is part of like out of the box thinking or just kind of like reframing, you know, how we approach our lives. And I wanted to kind of maybe end this with some thoughts about how we think about our dreams, our innate potential that is, you know, remains untapped and how to break through these, you know, kind of barriers that we erect, especially as we get older. It's like, this is my life and this is what I do. And like, oh, well, maybe I'll do that in the next life. Or, you know, all of the, the kind of just calcification that happens when we get older and then we kind of dismiss dreams that maybe were important to us when we're younger.
- [96:57]
Dara Torres
I think one of the things that really motivated me besides the challenge of making a comeback in 08, was the fact that I had so many middle aged people relying on me to make the Olympic team. And I didn't realize until I got to Olympic track and everyone was making such a big deal about what I was doing that I feel like for me, the most rewarding part was being able to make the Olympic team. To be able to let middle aged people know that you don't have to put an age limit on your dreams. You don't have to not do something because you're a parent. There are so many things that I think we are stigmatized because of our age and you never know if you can do it unless you, you try, you know, is the biggest thing. And I think that it was so rewarding for me because I had so many people come up to me afterwards and say, oh, like I never thought I'd be able to do something. And you really motivated me to do that. And that's just. It's not the metals that are rewarding. It's how you touch people's lives that's so rewarding.
- [98:02]
Brett
And so do you think about legacy in that regard or you're just, you're. I'm onto the next thing and moving forward.
- [98:10]
Dara Torres
Yeah, I don't think I'm focused on what's. If there was something that I'd want people to remember me by down the road is probably being able to stay in the sport for so many years. I think that. And yeah, I guess I think that's probably it. If I were to have a legacy, it would be the longevity of being in the sport and doing it at a later age. But I really don't, I don't really think about that.
- [98:39]
Brett
I feel like you're a really important figure and piece in this evolving story around performance in our later years. And I think we're in this really remarkable era where we are seeing people just defying all these stereotypes of what's possible. And that goes for all different kinds of sports. I think it's super cool, right? It's totally different than.
- [99:03]
Dara Torres
And women who are having kids also who they think, oh, you wouldn't see that a lot, like 20, 20 years ago, you know.
- [99:10]
Brett
So I think it's fantastic. And you're a legend. I really appreciate you coming here to share with me today.
- [99:17]
Dara Torres
Nice to chat with you and meet you.
- [99:18]
Brett
I know it's super cool. And for any of you BC swimmers who are watching and listening and you're still with us, like, you know, it's like, don't let her off the hook.
- [99:28]
Dara Torres
Oh my gosh. I don't think anyone wants to see me in a swimsuit Honestly.
- [99:34]
Brett
I think they would very much like to see, you know, what you're capable of. I think you're afraid that you that you're going to be faster than all of them and what that might do to their psyche.
- [99:41]
Dara Torres
I don't think so.
- [99:42]
Brett
Yeah. So what can we expect for the B.C. team in this upcoming year? You know, more than a couple dual meets.
- [99:50]
Dara Torres
Maybe more than a couple dual meets. I think we're going to have some good showings. Like I said, we have some great kids coming in. We have our returning kids who are training hard this summer, and it's just all about rebuilding the program and it's going to take a little while. So. So this is one thing I don't have is patience. So this is something I'm really going to have to test my patience with is just give it time.
- [100:10]
Brett
Well, it's exciting. I think it's super fun, so I appreciate you sharing it.
- [100:16]
Dara Torres
Nice to meet you.
- [100:17]
Brett
Yeah, cheers.
- [100:23]
Rich Roll
That's it for today. Thank you for listening.
- [100:26]
Brett
I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.
- [100:28]
Rich Roll
To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed.
- [100:34]
Brett
Today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing, Change and the Plant Power Way.
- [100:44]
Rich Roll
If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave all a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite.
- [100:58]
Brett
Episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful.
- [101:03]
Rich Roll
This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter.
- [101:23]
Brett
Which you can find on the footer.
- [101:25]
Rich Roll
Of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, Content Management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course, our theme music was created all the way to back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support.
- [101:54]
Brett
See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.
- [102:12]
Dara Torres
Sam.