Power, Property, & Prestige: Kurt Sutter & Katey Sagal Share The Unfiltered Truth About Marriage, Recovery, Success Addiction & The Path Back To Purpose

Summary

The Rich Roll Podcast: Power, Property, & Prestige

Episode: Power, Property, & Prestige: Kurt Sutter & Katey Sagal Share The Unfiltered Truth About Marriage, Recovery, Success Addiction & The Path Back To Purpose
Release Date: April 10, 2025
Host: Rich Roll
Guests: Kurt Sutter (Creator of Sons of Anarchy) & Katey Sagal (Actress and Musician)

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1. Introduction to Guests and Their Recovery Journey

Rich Roll opens the episode by introducing Kurt Sutter and Katey Sagal, highlighting their profound personal and professional achievements. Both Kurt and Katey share a pivotal aspect of their lives: they attained sobriety at the age of 31, a cornerstone that has fortified their enduring marriage and ongoing personal growth.

Notable Quote:
Kurt Sutter [04:01]: "We both got sober at the age of 31, and today, many decades later, we have plenty of hard-earned wisdom and direct life experience to share."

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2. The Role of Recovery in Their Marriage

Kurt and Katey delve into how their shared journey of recovery has been the bedrock of their relationship. They emphasize that sobriety is not just a personal achievement but a shared commitment that has allowed their marriage to thrive amidst the challenges of Hollywood.

Notable Quote:
Katie Sagal [04:20]: "You have to really want it, all, the good and the bad of it. You know, the struggle of it."

They discuss the importance of mutual support and accountability, which have helped them navigate the complexities of marriage, parenthood, and professional pressures without allowing their sobriety to falter.

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3. Balancing Personal Growth with Professional Life

The conversation shifts to the interplay between their personal lives and demanding careers in the entertainment industry. Kurt reflects on his experience as a showrunner and the challenges of maintaining authenticity and creative integrity while managing a successful television series.

Notable Quote:
Kurt Sutter [06:00]: "This is what we're gonna unlock today, you know."

Katey shares her journey from aspiring musician to established actress, highlighting how continuous personal development and recovery have been crucial in balancing her artistic ambitions with family responsibilities.

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4. Navigating Hollywood and the Creative Industry

Kurt and Katey offer candid insights into the pressures of Hollywood, where success can often lead to an obsession with power, property, and prestige. They caution against letting these external achievements overshadow personal well-being and authentic relationships.

Notable Quote:
Katie Sagal [26:34]: "Not the lesson, but that's the awareness, right?"

They discuss their experiences with high-stakes projects like Sons of Anarchy and the subsequent challenges that came with its success, including professional conflicts and the importance of maintaining healthy boundaries.

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5. Lessons Learned and Insights on Success and Purpose

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on redefining success beyond traditional metrics. Kurt and Katey advocate for finding deeper meaning and purpose through service, community, and authentic connections rather than solely chasing external accolades.

Notable Quote:
Kurt Sutter [91:25]: "The answer, as much as we want it to be found in property, power, prestige, ultimately isn't."

They explore how their recovery journey has led them to prioritize meaningful relationships and personal fulfillment over the superficial trappings of success, emphasizing that true purpose stems from within and from contributing positively to others' lives.

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6. Future Directions and Ongoing Commitment to Recovery

As the episode draws to a close, Kurt and Katey discuss their future endeavors, including their new podcast venture, "Pie," which aims to foster deep, honest conversations about personal growth, relationships, and creative processes. They reiterate their commitment to continuous self-improvement and supporting each other in their personal and professional lives.

Notable Quote:
Katie Sagal [127:24]: "This was really fun. I appreciate it."

They highlight the importance of staying present, embracing uncertainty, and remaining dedicated to their recovery principles as they navigate the ever-evolving landscape of the entertainment industry.

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Conclusion

Kurt Sutter and Katey Sagal share an inspiring narrative of resilience, emphasizing that true success lies in personal authenticity, strong relationships, and unwavering commitment to recovery. Their conversation serves as a testament to the power of shared experiences and the enduring strength found in mutual support and continuous personal growth.

Final Thoughts:
Rich Roll encapsulates the essence of their discussion by underscoring the importance of balancing ambition with personal well-being, a lesson invaluable to anyone striving to navigate the complexities of modern life while maintaining authenticity and purpose.

---

Notable Quotes for Reference:

• Katie Sagal [04:20]: "You have to really want it, all, the good and the bad of it."
• Kurt Sutter [91:25]: "The answer, as much as we want it to be found in property, power, prestige, ultimately isn't."
• Katie Sagal [26:34]: "Not the lesson, but that's the awareness, right?"
• Kurt Sutter [44:25]: "It's interesting that you're doing this podcast because we have to look at our part and move forward."
• Katie Sagal [85:37]: "The algorithm is driven by empirical data."

These quotes punctuate the episode's key themes, providing firsthand insight into Kurt and Katey's philosophies on life, recovery, and success.

Transcript

[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Katie Segal]

Every project I've worked on, there's been at least one person who I've helped get sober. It has to be about love and service, right?

[Unknown]

I know my experience at first going to group recovery meetings was I'm not the only person that can't seem to manage a life without being medicated in some way. And there was huge relief in that.

[Kurt Sutter]

You know I love me a good addiction recovery story.

[Rich Roll]

But you know what's better than that?

[Kurt Sutter]

Two recovery stories that become one love story.

[Rich Roll]

When Kurt Sutter and Katie Seagal first met, they shared something profound.

[Kurt Sutter]

Like me, they both got sober at.

[Rich Roll]

The age of 31 and today, many decades later, they have plenty of hard.

[Kurt Sutter]

Earned wisdom and direct life experience to share.

[Rich Roll]

But also, they're still growing, they're still.

[Kurt Sutter]

Evolving and they're doing it together in.

[Rich Roll]

A way that I think is really inspiring. Not just for the sober or the.

[Kurt Sutter]

Sober curious, but for literally anyone in.

[Rich Roll]

A long term relationship who is committed to actually making it more intimate, more.

[Kurt Sutter]

Nourishing and more rewarding than it has ever been.

[Unknown]

You have to really want it, all, the good and the bad of it. You know, the struggle of it.

[Katie Segal]

I have to find that fire. And if it's not the attaboys and the paycheck, what is it?

[Rich Roll]

You might remember Kurt from his appearance.

[Kurt Sutter]

On the show back in 2018.

[Rich Roll]

Kurt is a screenwriter and a television showrunner best known for creating the hit.

[Kurt Sutter]

Show Sons of Anarchy, which actually co.

[Rich Roll]

Starred his wife Katie, who is a.

[Kurt Sutter]

Musician and Golden Globe winning actress who's literally been appearing on screen her entire life. You might remember her from Married with.

[Rich Roll]

Children all the way to Futurama and everything in between. But today it's really all about recovery.

[Kurt Sutter]

It's about relationships.

[Rich Roll]

We talk about family, parenthood, and most.

[Kurt Sutter]

Notably what happens when two people make the delivery deliberate choice to evolve together.

[Rich Roll]

Through all of life's setbacks and celebrations.

[Kurt Sutter]

As well as Pie, their new podcast venture in which they explore all these.

[Rich Roll]

Themes and more with rare Hollywood honesty.

[Katie Segal]

I do not leave my work at home. I do not leave my work at set. Those characters talk to me all the time.

[Unknown]

It is a blessing to be able to be an artist. It's just kind of crazy, man. It's insane what we do.

[Kurt Sutter]

It's great to have you guys here. I've been looking forward to this for a really long time. And, you know, Kurt, I've known you for, I don't know, almost 20 years, probably at this point.

[Katie Segal]

At the Rosewood.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Katie Segal]

I mean, I'd seen you around, but that's where I got to know you. Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

And Katie, I've only met you a couple times, so you're the lock. This is what we're gonna unlock today, you know.

[Katie Segal]

Oh, good.

[Unknown]

It shouldn't be too hard.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. But you guys are an interesting couple. There's a lot of interesting overlaps with my own family and my own marriage. Ye, but you're a Hollywood big shot power couple. You've conquered Tinseltown.

[Unknown]

Are we?

[Kurt Sutter]

You've got Golden Globes in Hollywood, Walk of fame stars. But you know what? You had to, like, tiptoe into my little garden, right? And, like, tackle the podcasting thing. I mean, come on. It's not enough, right? Like, the hungry ghost is still alive. More mountains decline.

[Katie Segal]

You should just listen to our pillow talk. We're never gonna work again. That's our pillow talk.

[Unknown]

That's what we're. That's exactly. So. No, we just really wanted to have a podcast because we just actually are pretty reclusive and don't know a lot of people, and we thought, you know everybody. No. Mm. Mm. Seems that way.

[Kurt Sutter]

But, you know, I went to your Hollywood party. You guys know a few people?

[Unknown]

Well, we know a few people, but.

[Katie Segal]

The reason why we have the Christmas party is because we don't see anybody all year, because I don't like to leave the house. Yeah, she's much more social than I am. But really, the podcast was like, hey, I want to get to know whomever. And that seemed like a good excuse to get them in our home. I think it also starts feel creepy.

[Unknown]

Started with, who should we invite to a dinner party? Oh, we don't really know.

[Kurt Sutter]

Well, Kurt, I've heard you say, like, oh, I started it. Cause, like, I don't have any friends. Right.

[Katie Segal]

To a certain degree.

[Kurt Sutter]

And, you know, I share that kind of isolationism, you know, reclusiveness, you know, mercurial, and, you know, kind of my own worst enemy in that regard. And that is the gift of podcasting. Like, you get to have people come over and hold them captive, and you have an experience, and then there's lots of talk about how you're gonna hang out. Sometimes it happens. I mean, I have amazing Relationships because of this thing. So it does serve that. But on the friend piece, like, this is a thing for me because I basically just do my thing and then I go home and I have these experiences at this table, and it's great. And that really is my social life outside of my family life. And spent a lot of time reflecting on the state of my friendships and the lack of nourishment that I've given them. And I was remembering, as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about today, that there were a couple times where you reached out to me, like, hey, let's hang out, whatever. Let's connect. And then I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it doesn't happen. Like, this is a pattern that I'm in that I'm very aware of and yet have failed to kind of transcend.

[Katie Segal]

I also manifest that pattern as well. So when people don't get back to me, it's like, I think most of the time it's like, oh, I should have followed up with that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just assume it was my part to that didn't get fulfilled. So you're off the hook on that one.

[Kurt Sutter]

Okay, good. I feel better. Okay. End of podcast. We've resolved that.

[Unknown]

That's a conversation I've had with my therapist a lot that's so interesting about friends, you know, and trying to maintain and meet new friends at an older part of your life. And it's really, you know, it's a thing. It's a real effort that you have to put into. And I think that's why I find it difficult. Not difficult, but just, like, you have to make it. Have intention with it, you know, I.

[Kurt Sutter]

Think particularly when the kids are older, also, like, when they're in school, you're kind of around other parents. You become friends with the parents of your. Sometimes. I know, right? Like, that's a whole tricky thing as well. But now that the kids are older, it's kind of like, oh, okay, you know?

[Katie Segal]

And this is a whole other obviously, thing. But, you know, moderation is not my strong suit. So, like, I find it very difficult to have casual friendships. Like, if I'm putting energy into a friendship, like, I want it to have a certain amount of depth and intimacy, and that requires the other person to need that as well. And sometimes I will be maybe too forthright or too engaged, and I can tell that people are like, whoa.

[Kurt Sutter]

Scare people off a little bit.

[Katie Segal]

Like, oh, coffee, buddy, coffee. You know what I mean? Cause I just. And you know, and it's what we get to do on our thing is go, who are you? And then I isolate if I don't get the response. You know what I mean?

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

If I don't get the response.

[Unknown]

Well, I think it's all hooked up to recovery community. I mean, because as we're all in that community, there's not a lot of small talk that goes on. Right. I mean, we're talking about real things that, you know. You know, that almost killed us at a certain point in our lives. And so we have a certain way that we dialogue with people, and if they're not in that, it is difficult. It's difficult to find where to land.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. Well, you have to create an environment that is conducive to that for somebody who doesn't have that kind of relationship with communicating that way. So you have to, like, lead with vulnerability or make sure that they feel safe. And not everybody is willing to go there. But I think people in recovery make for great podcast hosts because of that very thing. And I just remember, because I've been doing this over 12 years at this point, but I was a very early adopter as a listener of podcasts way back when. There weren't very many, but I would keep coming back to Marc Maron or something, because guys in recovery, they know how to get right into it. They're not afraid to tell their secrets and go to those places. And I think there's something about being in recovery and your relationship with honesty that lends itself very well to this medium. And I just know when I started mine, I wanted to model the AA meeting experience for a broader audience that is not necessarily in recovery or has any kind of problem, but just like this is how to have a real conversation. That feeling of connectivity that you get when you're participating in a vulnerable experience between a couple people, that's great. And it feels like that's what you're doing, and that's kind of the motivation.

[Unknown]

Yeah, Well, I think it's also. We don't really know. I mean, I don't really know how to not do that. You know what I mean? After a certain. I've been in recovery a long time, and it is what taught me how to be able to communicate with people at all, you know? Cause for years in my younger life, I was, you know, it was a false self. It was a false. I don't know, I was being who I thought I should be.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I think after years of talking. I hate the overuse of the word Authentic. But after years of speaking authentically, it becomes the only way you know how. So it's interesting. You find the people that are maybe afraid to be that way, suddenly they're. They're not so afraid because we create a safe space. You know, if you're vulnerable, it's easier for someone else.

[Kurt Sutter]

You create the permissiveness for him to be. So. So you're Sober, like, what, like 38 years or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's tell your story. Let's do a little what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. I mean, you grew up in LA and kind of like a, you know, a movie TV family.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I grew up. My father was a director. My mother was a singer and then a writer. They met when my mother worked on the Jerry Lewis Dean Martin show years ago. And Norman Lear introduced my parents. My father was.

[Rich Roll]

He's your godfather.

[Unknown]

He's my godfather.

[Kurt Sutter]

That's crazy.

[Unknown]

And I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Norman. Cause he put them together. She was working for him, and my dad was directing in Yiddish theater. And they all hooked up. And so I grew up all around Los Angeles. Yes. Because we would move depending on work. You know, I lived this circus life that we live now for most of my life. Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

And growing up with creative parents doing their thing. But they both passed away young, right?

[Unknown]

They did, yeah. My mom had heart disease from the time she was 35, which is very, very young. And she also. She had a host of other things going on with depression and all that. So she actually passed away at 47. And I have lots of feelings about what actually might have gone down, that it is said that she died from heart disease. And then my father. Yeah. Was actually. I guess we can talk about all this. Yeah. He was actually killed on a movie set directly.

[Kurt Sutter]

It was like a helicopter.

[Unknown]

Yeah. He walked into a helicopter blade, which was brutal. As you know, it's interesting because from the places that we come from, you know, my dad was a bigger than life, kind of angry dude. And I think some of that contributed to him being disoriented and not getting his shot and pissed off. His script was in the helicopter and he kind of whipped around before the thing shut off, and that's what happened. Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

So how old were you at that time?

[Unknown]

I was 26 when my dad passed. I was just turning 20 when my mom passed. Yeah, my 20s were rough, man. I mean, I understand why I was checking out all the time. It just progressively got weirder. I also had, you know, a medical thing when I was 28. I had. I had cancer when I was 28, thyroid cancer, which is the kind to get, apparently. And so it was a rough. It was rough during my twenties as I was trying to be a rock star, which was awesome.

[Kurt Sutter]

Right. So music was always the thing from the beginning.

[Unknown]

Always.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, yeah. And the drugs and alcohol piece, like, when did that enter and what did that look like?

[Unknown]

That entered when I was about 14. And really what it was is my parents, my father being a director, liking everything to look a certain way. I was overweight as a teen, even though now I look back at pictures rich, I looked pretty good. I was not, like, obese, but I definitely had a food thing. And so my parents took me to the doctor. They gave me diet pills, which is what happened. So I'm 14, and suddenly I have legal speed from the doctor. And then on the weekends, I'm drinking wine and smoking weed. And then the speed becomes. This is what I think it was. I think I needed some sort of antidepressant because I didn't really lose any weight. I just felt better, you know, it just made me lighten up. And then eventually that turned into, you know, street speed, and it turned into cocaine, and it turned into all the fun stuff that was going on. When I was a wannabe rock star and working a lot with Rockstar, you know, I worked as a background singer for years, so I was on the road a lot, and it was just kind of a lifestyle, but it had become something I needed from a really early age.

[Kurt Sutter]

You were a background singer for quite the collection of talent, weren't you? Yeah, it's like Bob Dylan, Tanya Tucker.

[Unknown]

Tucker. Bette Midler, Olivia Newton James. Yeah, well, I was kind of a. You know, I did a lot of road work, but I also did some recording. I don't read music, and I'm like, a really good faker. So I'd always, like. I would do session work and I couldn't read the notes, but I could hear the notes. So as long as I was in the right place harmonizing, I was fine. Yeah, it was really on my way to. I started writing songs when I was young. When I was, like, 13, I taught myself to play the piano. And then those diet pills really helped with songwriting, I gotta say. You know, give me some of those. Some cigarettes and a piano, and I was off and running, locked in.

[Katie Segal]

Just talk about when you would tour with Etta, how you would end up singing more and more.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I got a gig with my. I've been married a couple times. Well, three times. And so my first husband, he auditioned to be in one of my bands and got the gig. And then he was also playing with Etta James. So he got me on that gig, and I was Etta's background singer. And Etta, as we would tour, I went all over the country on a bus, me and Etta and a bunch of dudes. And she'd let me open the show for her. So I'd go out as the tour would start, she'd have me go out and sing one song, and then by, you know, three quarters of the way through, I'm doing, like, five songs.

[Katie Segal]

She's exhausted.

[Unknown]

And I was like, you just keep going. I mean, it was really. It was amazing. It was a lesson in just so many things. But, yeah, I worked as a. I mean, gratefully I had. I was able to support myself.

[Kurt Sutter]

Do you still consider yourself a musician first?

[Unknown]

You know, I was just talking to Kurt about it because. Yes and no. Now I feel like my acting trajectory, which was completely by surprise, now I've learned how to be an actor, and I love acting, but music is my first love. But really what I want to do now, I was just talking to Kurt about it because I've always had a band. I don't have a band right now, but I want to start a choir. I like choir.

[Kurt Sutter]

Singing like Kanye, Sunday School, maybe.

[Unknown]

I hadn't even thought about it like that.

[Kurt Sutter]

Just a different version of that.

[Katie Segal]

You love Community?

[Unknown]

I like Community, and I love making music with people. Something really fantastic about singing with people. Like, my last band was a lot of group singing.

[Katie Segal]

It wasn't you and somebody. It was like a band. And that's what you.

[Unknown]

And that's what I really liked.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. And you raised your two oldest children playing music with them, which is something my wife did as well.

[Unknown]

Oh, she did, yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

So our two older boys are musicians, but, like, their whole relationship, like, growing up, it was like they were like. Would make music together all the time. And she will say, like, that's her greatest joy.

[Unknown]

Yeah, if you have that joy thing, if you can do that, that's the thing you never want to let go of in your life, whether you're just doing it with your family or in your house or. You know, I talk to people all the time that say, yeah, I used to play this, and I used to do that, and I'm just like, man, don't. Don't be a. Used to be. Because it's such a gift. And it's such a great connection to something. It's just a great connect. So that's lovely to hear. Yeah. My kids and I have always played music. You know, Jackson is an amazing drummer, guitar players and Sarah too. A great singer, great songwriter and yeah, when they were little we just all.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. Jackson's not so much doing music these days though, right, because he's becoming a big time star as an actor.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he's working more than I am right now for sure.

[Kurt Sutter]

He's doing good now.

[Unknown]

He's doing good. He really is. He's on that show Tell Me Lies.

[Kurt Sutter]

I haven't seen any of the shows like the Ambulance.

[Katie Segal]

Oh, yeah, that movie rules.

[Kurt Sutter]

I love that movie.

[Katie Segal]

His Michael Bay. Extravagant.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. I mean that was great. I can't take credit for this, but Tyler and Trapper are my boys. They would call that a five star, two star, which I think is a great rating system of two star movies that you can't not watch.

[Katie Segal]

That's fantastic.

[Unknown]

There's Jack mostly laying in the back of the ambulance. He's the guy that gets shot. So he's in there.

[Kurt Sutter]

He's the guy for the whole movie. I mean, that's a huge part in that movie.

[Unknown]

He's had kind of a career path the way I did. Like we both started as musicians. He dropped out of college and said, I can't do this. I said, well, you have to do something. So he went and started taking acting classes and pretty quickly started booking things. So he had some natural ability, which I think I must have had too because it kind of happened that way for me as well.

[Kurt Sutter]

Does he get the Nepo baby stuff or does Sarah?

[Unknown]

That's it.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh, if I say that to him, you know, he doesn't listen.

[Kurt Sutter]

Very creative, talented people raise their children in creative households. And you know, there is a genetic piece to that.

[Katie Segal]

To his credit, man, he's hustled and.

[Unknown]

You know, takes a lot of pride in, you know, we don't have the same last name. So he.

[Katie Segal]

He doesn't play it.

[Unknown]

He doesn't play it. Even though I did get to be in an episode of his TV show, which was really fun. And no, he gets offended by that comment.

[Kurt Sutter]

What brought you into the rooms?

[Unknown]

Me?

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh, God, a boyfriend.

[Rich Roll]

I've never heard your pitch.

[Unknown]

You've never heard my pitch?

[Kurt Sutter]

No, no, no. Surprisingly, I've never seen you up. I've never been at a meeting where you did your whole deal.

[Unknown]

Well, you know how we talk about we have lower companions. Right. So I was in this relationship for the last two years of my using with this guy that I was just absolutely insanely crazy about. And we were just, you know, getting high all the time. And one day he left me. He, like, broke up with me. And he had a bunch of friends in aa and I knew about AA because it was kind of like, in hindsight, some of these people that he knew would sort of watch out for us, you know, late night clubbing and they'd make sure we weren't driving and, you know, all this stuff. So I kind of went to an AA meeting looking for him. I thought, well, I'm gonna talk to his friends. So I walk into this AA meeting and all these people say to me, oh, you're finally here. We have a seat for you. And then they said to me, I said his name was Spider. And I said, where's Spider? You know, he's Ba ba ba. And as I was leaving, they said, why don't you come back tomorrow? Maybe he'll be here.

[Kurt Sutter]

Nice.

[Unknown]

So. And then, you know, and it wasn't. It was like a couple of years before I got sober. I knew, I knew. And I had kept trying to stop using and. Because by this time I'm working in television, which means I have to get up early in the morning. And I was kind of trying to do both. I was having gigs at night and it was really not good. So I was trying to manage and control my drinking and using, and I couldn't do it. And so when I got to the rooms and I heard other people that couldn't manage, they could do a lot of other things, but they couldn't manage that. I knew I was in the right place, so.

[Kurt Sutter]

And that happened really shortly before the whole Married With Children thing. Right. You were like, really new in sobriety at that time.

[Unknown]

I was four months sober when I got that gig. My first television job really was with Mary Tyler Moore. And this all came about from singing gig. And then an agent shows up and then before you know it, I'm on this TV show and. And I'm not sober and I'm working. Well, I guess we can break her anonymity now. She talked about it a lot, but yes, it was Mary. And she would talk on the set about being sober, and I was like, so full of shit. I would just say, oh, yeah, me too. But years later, do you think she.

[Kurt Sutter]

Was doing that for your benefit? Like, hoping you were overhearing that maybe?

[Unknown]

Because years later I remember taking her to lunch and thanking her because she kind of was An Eskimo, whether she knew it or not, you know, and she planted a seed and. Yeah. So. But it took me another year or so to actually get sober after that seed was planted, but.

[Kurt Sutter]

31, when you got sober?

[Unknown]

31.

[Kurt Sutter]

And you, Kurt, you were 31.

[Katie Segal]

I was 31 as well.

[Kurt Sutter]

I was 31 too.

[Unknown]

You were? Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Magic year.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Huh. Interesting.

[Katie Segal]

So we're all. Well, that's really interesting because we're like. Our age difference is the difference in sobriety. Do you know what I mean?

[Unknown]

I'm older. I'm six years older than you.

[Kurt Sutter]

My wife's older than me too.

[Unknown]

Really? How many years?

[Katie Segal]

Probably six years older than you.

[Kurt Sutter]

She's four years older than me.

[Unknown]

Smart guys. You guys are smart.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. Older, smart, powerful, strong women.

[Katie Segal]

Absolutely.

[Kurt Sutter]

That's my thing.

[Unknown]

That's good. That's a good thing.

[Kurt Sutter]

I don't want to overstate it, but I think of you as sort of like you're this iconic sort of doyenne of LA A A Like you sponsor like a lot of people. Like, you're just. You're very kind of like. Well, for your service and for being incredibly active. I know you've helped like countless, countless.

[Unknown]

Women and very anonymously. I mean, it's interesting you say that. I was just asked to be on a podcast that's about sobriety and I just said I had to say no, I had to say, you know, because I talk about it in a general way and I'll use, you know. But I find it so. Not that I don't want to be of service in a big way. I just don't feel like I want to advertise it. Do you know what I mean? And I have, you know, I remember I've started meetings in LA before. I think that's kind of the deal. I just keep it very. It's kind of a sacred thing to me, you know, it saved my life and it really gave me my life. And all those things I don't say lightly, so. So it's lovely to hear that. But I sponsor people because it really helps me, you know, I mean, it's kind of the selfish way of being. Selfish, Selfish. Self centered. Unself centered. Yeah. Paradox, you know, so. But that's lovely to hear that. I am sort of. I've been. Well, I'm from here, so I'm here. This has been my sober. And I'll see people in the rooms that I used to get loaded with all the time and they'll finally come in.

[Kurt Sutter]

It is a bit of a conundrum. And I'm curious whether you've kind of butted up against this now, being podcast hosts. Like, when I wrote my book and then when I started this podcast, you know, how do I speak about recovery without violating the tradition? And, you know, technically, every time I do, I'm violating the tradition. And so it's like, in my. My sort of definition or my relationship to that tradition of, like, not advertising in print radio is like, I'm trying to, you know, create an awareness and a sense of possibility in people because I just know, like, I didn't know anything about it. And had I known a little bit about it or had, like, a sort of parasocial connection with somebody who was sober, maybe I would have come in early and, you know, what is the cost benefit of, like, talking about it? And everybody has a different kind of, you know, boundary with that. But it sounds like you have a more traditional one a little bit. But now you're, like, doing this podcast dose and we're talking about recovery.

[Unknown]

I think it's semantics. You know, I don't. I'm a big believer in the tradition of not saying where my recovery is grounded in, you know, and that is basically because it was taught to me really early on that if I. If I advertise, not advertise, if I talk too much about where we actually do all this and say, all of a sudden I'm out, you know, I'm loaded again. And that gives that back. To use the word recovery, I believe is fine. To use the word sobriety is fine.

[Katie Segal]

But I also think, for me, anyhow, the dividing line is discussing it in terms of experience, meaning there is not an agenda. There is not. This is the way to do it. There is not. It's. This happened to me, and this is what I did to get better, which is the foundation for us of recovery. But it's also a way for me to keep it organic. And if asked, I'm honest. And, you know, I found over the years that my probably biggest service that I've done is for my own protection, is letting people that, whether usually, like, work circumstances, letting them know about my recovery keeps me protected, because that's 1, 2, 5, 6, 8 people that I'm not going to feel comfortable using in front of. And it also, I say, this is what I'm doing, and I never ask what they're doing. And I pretty much on every project I've worked on, there's been at least one person, usually more, who has either questioned me, who I'VE helped get sober who I've, you know, steered in the right direction. And I see that as a form of service that I don't consider a breach of anonymity as much as it is. I do it to save my own ass to a certain degree, you know.

[Unknown]

Well, it's also the concept of attraction rather than promotion. I mean, I really, I feel like, you know, doing this in all my affairs, which is basically how I have to live my life, which is by spiritual principle. You know, you bring that into the world and it's amazing how attractive that is to certain people that are like, you know, I'll be on a job sometimes and I've just learned to extend myself, you know, to be a part of rather than separate from. And many people have asked me like, what you know, and all of a sudden the conversation will be about, well, this is just how I've learned how to live my life. And it's not in some big grandiose way, it's just, you know, it's just how we do it, you know, it's how I have to do it because I need to stay connected to that kind of behavior. Because I could be the other way.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, no, trust me, I've been the other way. Yes, I get it.

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

For somebody who's listening to this or watching this, you know, who's sort of flirting with the idea of, you know, maybe I have a problem or you know, like I really should kind of like not do what I'm doing but has fear around, you know, what AA is or what recovery looks like or I mean what is the message that you would like to convey to, to that person?

[Unknown]

Well first of all, people that don't have a problem don't ask that question. They don't say to themselves do I think maybe I have a problem? Most people that ask that question have a problem. And what I would say is that it's a very isolating disease. And so if you are alone in that, the very first thing you need to know is that you're not alone in that and that. I know my experience at first going through to group recovery meetings was the light bulbs going off of like oh, I'm not the only person that can't seem to manage a life without being medicated in some way or you know, and there was huge relief in that. So what I guess I would say to somebody is community is the opposite of addiction. So if you are feeling that way, reach out to some kind of community. You can walk into a room like that and not even say anything. You can just. Nobody's gonna force you to do anything. That's one of the beautiful things about it too because we're all so isolated.

[Kurt Sutter]

People, you know, yeah, we're sitting in our pool of shame. We are convinced that nobody could possibly understand just how unique our pain is.

[Unknown]

But it's very enlighten, you know to walk into a room of like minded people in any circumstance. But that's what I would say to somebody that thinks they have an issue is maybe call your Local central office. There are a million of them. And find out where you might want to go or Zoom. I mean the Zoom meetings are amazing.

[Katie Segal]

It's funny. I knew I wouldn't make my 1:00 meeting today. And I'm not just saying this because we're talking. I was listening to speaker tapes on the way here because I didn't know how long it was going to take to get here. And it's a woman and I've heard her before and she always makes me laugh. And what I was struck by was, oh yeah, I forget like how, how much fun and there is in that sense of relief, right? In that letting go of like, there's just this like. And it, you know, and I think it's disconcerting sometimes for people who are new because like, it's what it's not. Nothing's funny, man. This isn't fun. And so, you know, some of the attraction for me is that this fear that oh my God, my life's over, I'm never gonna have fun again. And that we, for me, I probably didn't have an honest, truly an honest, sober moment of happiness or joy or sincere laughter until after I got sober. Right. And where I was able to honestly take a look at myself and some self deprecating humor that wasn't about control or shame and things like that. And it's so dark and when people are laughing but you just, and I just forgot, like, oh shit, yeah, that's what, that's part of the deal, man. That's what we get to, we get to open up to.

[Unknown]

It's interesting how people, I think people also get a little freaked out when they hear that people with 38 years of sobriety still go to meetings.

[Kurt Sutter]

This is the next thing. Yeah, like, for that, like you still do that. Like, why is it like, are, do you think you're gonna, you speak to that?

[Unknown]

What I've learned is that alcoholism, drug addiction is in my brain, is in my thinking process. It's my lack of perception. It's my way of looking at the world that I don't know, chicken or egg. I don't know what came first. I don't know if I was born this way or from years of childhood, uh, oness. I just grew up fear based. And so the fact that I don't drink and use substances doesn't mean that my thinking process doesn't still need treatment, you know, because it's the way I look at the world that if I'm not living present and by somewhat of spiritual principle, which means doing unto others is, you know, simple stuff. If I'm not reminded of that, I will very quickly go off the beam and think like everything's turning to shift. And the next thought after that is like, what's the use? And then the next thought is, I might as well get loaded. You know, that's down the road. You know, I'm not afraid of that every morning when I wake up. But it's the uncomfortability of living that way, of thinking that way. You know, where is. If we stay present mind, you know, right here, right now, everything's fine, but I forget it. Like I'll remember that right now. I'll leave this room and I'll forget. That's why I still go to meetings. That's why people still go to meetings. And when I say living by spiritual principle, people get a little like. Because there's a lot of God talk around what we do. It's a spiritual principle of your own understanding. It's whatever, you know, the universe is clearly bigger than we are. All you have to know is you're not it. Something greater than you.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. The group who has figured out a way to stay sober longer than you can be your higher power. It is a power greater than.

[Unknown]

Absolutely.

[Kurt Sutter]

But people do get really caught up in that. And I think beyond that, it's the community piece, it's the connectivity piece, like connection being the opposite of addiction. And the service piece, like at some point it's like, what can I contribute to this? How can I give it back? Because that's what nourishes me and gives my life meaning.

[Unknown]

It's kind of like, remember when you first had kids? I don't know for you, but for me I was so relieved that I could think about something other than me being a self centered actor who's also an alcoholic. I mean, it was just so much about me. So, you know, the gift of sobriety was suddenly it wasn't all about me. And the gift of having children was also like, oh, I get to think about them. I don't have to worry about me so much. And there's something so freeing about that, you know, and so not, you know, it's so boring to think about yourself all the time. Right. I mean, really.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. It is an obsession of the mind.

[Unknown]

Oh my God, yes.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, we get so tired of ourselves.

[Kurt Sutter]

I have a feeling Kirk gets caught up in his own mind about himself here and there.

[Katie Segal]

Oh, occasionally.

[Kurt Sutter]

You guys met in recovery, I presume?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, we actually met this Sister program in Al Anon. We met in Al Anon because at the time we met, I was going through a divorce with my second husband, who, God love him, just passed. He. He had struggles. He couldn't maintain his sobriety. And there came a point in that marriage where I had my two little kids and we had to go our own ways. So I didn't do anything about that marriage till somebody said, you should go to Al Anon. So I went to Al Anon and learned how to live with that, sort of. And realized I didn't really want to live with that. And so I was going to Al Anon, and he was there for a totally different.

[Katie Segal]

Well, I had a marriage. I was married briefly for about a year, and that marriage ended and went to Al Anon. And then I realized that that's where all the really attractive women were. So that became my primary program for about two years.

[Kurt Sutter]

All of whom have needs that need to be met. Absolutely.

[Katie Segal]

And I've started that program again because I, you know, it was. It's a. It's a great. It's great tools. It's the handbook. Right. But I found the meeting. It's. It's a. It's online. It's a hybrid. Hybrid meeting. And the meeting that we met at, it's still going. Yeah.

[Unknown]

24 years ago.

[Katie Segal]

24 years ago.

[Kurt Sutter]

Wow.

[Katie Segal]

And it's still going on. And it's.

[Kurt Sutter]

So wait, when did you guys first start the dating?

[Unknown]

2001.

[Katie Segal]

2001. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Got married.

[Kurt Sutter]

That's when Julie. That's right. I mean, mid 2000 was when I started dating Julie, and I was coming.

[Katie Segal]

Off a short previous as well. That's right.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Katie Segal]

I forgot about that.

[Kurt Sutter]

Mine. Only mine didn't make it past the honeymoon, but, you know.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. Oh, that's right.

[Unknown]

His kind of didn't really. He was just acting as if.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, yeah. And she. And she's a lovely woman. And she is also passed recently, but she was a lovely woman. And we were talking, just both of us were like, what?

[Kurt Sutter]

That's so funny.

[Katie Segal]

She. I saw her at that meeting and I. Obviously, I knew who she was. And. And, you know, there was a little bit of. Hey. And. But I wouldn't ask her, Alex. I didn't have a job, and I wouldn't have gone. And then I got a job. I got my first writing gig, and then I didn't see her. She. For like six months. Right. Seven months.

[Unknown]

I was taking the kids to soccer.

[Katie Segal]

She had soccer on Saturday morning. So I didn't see her. And then she showed up one Saturday, and I was like, if you don't do it now, man. And I asked her to coffee, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah. And then I brought my sponsor on our first date because I had such a bad picker. I mean, I really had a history.

[Kurt Sutter]

Of not great choices, like, bad boy, spider. Spider types?

[Unknown]

Yeah, kind of pretty much. Or really, like. Yeah, broken. Just kind of broken. I mean, not that Kurt was completely not broken, but. So I brought my sponsor to our first coffee date. And I remember in the middle of the coffee date, hardcore.

[Katie Segal]

Hardcore Alanon.

[Unknown]

Hardcore al. Anon, she reaches over to me, she goes, he's okay. And she left.

[Kurt Sutter]

How did you handle the fact that she brought her sponsor?

[Katie Segal]

I knew her sponsor from that meeting, and I thought she was great, and I totally got it. And I was kind of glad she was there because I wanted to make sure that this all made sense too. So. So the fact that she got the okay, I was like, all right. I guess this is okay.

[Unknown]

It was such an interesting date. It wasn't like a coffee date, because with a sober person, like, I'll never forget, he opened up about himself in so many intimate ways, like, right away, like, this is who I am. This is where I've been, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, wow, that's. I mean, I was glad to get all the information, but, you know, I've since, like, sponsored girls that go on dates. And my main thing to that is, like, don't say everything right away.

[Kurt Sutter]

Like, just, you know, what's great about it is that, you know, Kurt presents in a very specific way. So you get the bad boy exterior. You know, you have the sweetness on the inside. And, you know, there's some rough stuff in there, too. But, you know, he's fundamentally like a genteel person. Right. But he looks like all. He looks like a spider.

[Unknown]

Oh, he absolutely does. Which is the perfect combo for me.

[Kurt Sutter]

Right.

[Unknown]

I like rough around the edges, but a sweetheart inside. He's all that.

[Kurt Sutter]

Tell me more about why you felt like you couldn't ask her out until you had a job.

[Katie Segal]

You know, I was a struggling artist for so long. I started out as an actor, and I moved out to la, and then that didn't happen. And then I went back to New York to study with my mentor, became a Meisner teacher and a theater director. And then I went back and got my mfa. Like, I had this very circuitous path, and I was in la, and I had been focusing on writing, and I really had a sense that that's what I was supposed to do. And I had, you know, I had enough sobriety under my belt, and I felt like I'm on the right path. And even though I was starving and didn't have a dime to my name, I. You know, I just felt like I was doing the right thing and. But my whole thing was, I just want to tell people what I do in one sentence. That was all I wanted to say. I'm this. Right. So when I got the. My first gig was on the Shield as a staff writer. And I got the gig and I started getting paid. For me, it wasn't about the money as much as the fact that, yeah, it was great to be able to pay rent, but it was, oh, fuck, I can tell people that I'm a writer now.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. And a real. Not a writer in the aspirational sense of, like, I'm a guy at Starbucks with my laptop.

[Katie Segal]

Exactly. Exactly. I couldn't have that conversation. I would just tell people I'm a fucking plumber. I just couldn't have that conversation with people anymore. So I was able to say, you know, when she said, what do you do? I could say, I'm a writer. And, you know, and, like, follow it up with an actual job description.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Katie Segal]

And it wasn't like I felt like she. It was me. Right. It was my stuff that wouldn't allow me to engage somebody who I thought was a significant human being. And it had nothing to do with notoriety or it was just like, I knew she was a mom. I knew she had kids. I knew she was an adult, you know, And I just knew that I had to show up and at least have a sense of self worth and esteem that would allow me to engage, honestly.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. You could stand on your own two feet and look her in the eye and feel. Yeah, like, no, I totally get that. But it is funny because you're like a plumber. I mean, I think it was probably something like 2003 or 4 when I first met you, or you started showing up at Sasha's and you said you lived across the street, but I was like, who is this guy? Is he a carpenter, like a semi homeless guy or whatever? I think maybe your first or second year on the Shield. I had no idea you were a writer for a long time because we.

[Unknown]

Don'T talk about that in the rooms, which is the other great thing about it.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. Most people to this day, like, I pull up the Uber driver pull me up to our house, and he'll look at me and go, you live Here.

[Kurt Sutter]

I know. You know, that has to be, like. That never gets tiring, though. I'm sure right now. Now it just.

[Katie Segal]

Now I wait for it, you know, Now I'm like, ahead.

[Unknown]

Ask me, I think you look like a very.

[Katie Segal]

But you know what I mean. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Hollywood dude.

[Kurt Sutter]

Right?

[Katie Segal]

Or they'll just assume I'm in music.

[Kurt Sutter]

Right. Right. Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

I mean, that's the next. You know, because I guess that's the.

[Unknown]

You know, that's the hair and the.

[Katie Segal]

Tats, and that's the COVID photo of it all.

[Kurt Sutter]

Well, the other ripple in your relationship, you know, not only are you both in recovery, I mean, that's one thing I don't have. My wife has no problem with, you know, addiction issues at all. So. So I don't share that with you guys. But you guys also collaborate and work together. And so it's very integrated or enmeshed. And so how do you keep that healthy with healthy boundaries and make sure that the relationship doesn't kind of descend into something transactional?

[Unknown]

Well, we actually. The only project we seriously worked together on was Sons, and we learned a lot. I mean, there were some bumpy bumps. I mean, I had to learn, for me, the boundary of he's my boss, and so I don't have. Our marriage is very much about open communication. Sort of like we speak on things that might not be that comfortable or whatever, but as a boss, I would open my mouth too much and just say, like, well, why am I doing? You know, I'd come home and want to talk about the acting we both loved doing. And I'd want to say, well, why did you write this? Or why did you? You know, just, like, really inappropriate stuff. As an actor, my job is to interpret what I'm given. That's my job. And it's not to tell the person that's given me what to interpret like, that they should change it or do something. You know, that's not my job.

[Katie Segal]

We had to get a little help.

[Unknown]

We had to get some help with it. Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

Boundaries.

[Unknown]

And ultimately kind of didn't talk about it when we came home. That's what we tried. Thank God we had three kids so we could shift focus. But I think overall we did really well.

[Katie Segal]

We did, I think, and we were excited. It was so much fun.

[Unknown]

We were both excited.

[Katie Segal]

We really wanted to work together, and it was a perfect project, and it was really cool. And then at one point, there was some comment about that suggested that you weren't in the episode enough.

[Unknown]

Oh, is that what I said?

[Katie Segal]

And I was like. And I was like, what? And, you know. And then after that, we're like, we should get some rules. And we did. We had a mutual therapist, and we chatted about it. But here's the deal. We also know that we both love what we do. And we talk about it not because we have to. We talk about it because experientially, it's very fulfilling for us. You know, we learned that, oh, it's okay to talk about the experience in a what I'm getting out of it kind of way. And we, you know, we sort of figured it out, how to, you know, get it on track.

[Unknown]

I think it was kind of funnier sometimes to watch the other actors responding to the fact that, like, Kurt would write me a sex scene, and they couldn't quite understand, like, how do you know? But we were very able to separate personal from business. I mean, we're actors and writers, and so we, like, you know, it's not some voyeuristic, weird thing, which is. I think some, like, Kurt would want us tell a story about Jimmy. About Jimmy.

[Katie Segal]

Jimmy Smets was so, like, who's the sweetest human being?

[Unknown]

Sweetest.

[Katie Segal]

And very super respectful.

[Unknown]

And he was a love interest of mine on the show.

[Katie Segal]

And I wouldn't. It's not like I would show up on set for the sex scenes, but it would be like, you know, I'd be on set and Jimmy would just get wholly uncomfortable. So I realized, okay, that's right.

[Unknown]

And we weren't. Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

And we were.

[Kurt Sutter]

You know, we were fine. You were okay.

[Katie Segal]

We were just doing work, you know.

[Kurt Sutter]

But you need him to show up authentically. Right? So you had a skedaddle.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Segal]

I just gave space so he would, you know. Cause I didn't. You know. And look, I get it. And we. At that point, we'd been doing it long enough where it was, you know, you might have. It didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter what you were doing.

[Unknown]

Well, I think when you come from the craft point, like, you were studying to be a teacher, studying to be an actor, so he understands that all that stuff is very mechanical and choreographed. You know, it's not what it ends up being. And you know, what people are responding to.

[Kurt Sutter]

How do the tools of recovery come into play in, like, navigating conflict in your relationship? And then also, like, in parenting, I.

[Unknown]

Can speak to that. I can say that the traditions that we live by are what's best for the whole. Right. So I always look at our marriage as. There's him, there's me, and then there's the marriage and the family. And so decisions are based basically on what's best for the whole, which. That's where I think the tools of recovery actually work really well. You know, we both want our way. You know, we're humans, we all want our way. But then ultimately, if there, there's a conflict with that, I know for me, my thought process goes to what's best for everybody. It's like, okay, a simple example would be, are we going out to dinner or are we having dinner at home? I want to go out to dinner. I want to have dinner at home. Well, you know what, the kids haven't been over for a while and blah, blah, you know, whatever. So let's all have dinner at home, whatever it is. So I think that's where recovery tools kind of come in. Also. We. This is one of the things I love about my marriage. I mean, I love a lot of things about my marriage, but there's a lot of accountability for bad behavior that happens pretty quickly. Like, you know, if he's being an asshole, he'll tell me that, like within five minutes and. Or, you know, there's a lot of accountability for each one of our own parts. You know, if I'm being really selfish about what it is that I want and I recognize it, I'm able to say to him, hey, I'm not being. Okay, I'm really sorry I did that.

[Kurt Sutter]

But the big piece is being able to hear that and not be reactive, right? Like, how can you receive that kind of feedback and process it and not like escalate some kind of conflict?

[Unknown]

Well, usually with us I find. Well, I find with him, I don't have to say to him, hey, you're being like, why are you being so, so non communicative? Or why are you shutting me out? Or why are you. You know, he notices it. I don't even almost have to say it, you know, or if I do have to say it, he takes it, he receives it. You know, the thing about being an examined person is that you have to have a certain understanding of your faults, your weaknesses, your strength. You know, so when somebody says to you, and you know you're a recognition, reclusive person, somebody says to you, hey, man, you've disappeared. Where are you? Hello? If you have any self awareness, you know that that's your tendency. And you're then able to say, hey, you know what? I think you're right. I have been doing that. We don't rectify it, right? Away, it just means, like, you know, maybe we're gonna hang out and watch a movie together instead of just going off in our separate worlds. Does that make sense?

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, I get it. I get it. I think marrying that to this idea that self awareness is huge, but also self awareness will avail you nothing. Right. Unless you actually marry it to some kind of contrary action.

[Katie Segal]

I think that's where our individual recovery comes into play, too, because we both do the work we need to do to move ahead individually. And we've had some crunchy times, man. Really crunchy times. And there was a. And I talk about it sometimes from the podium, which is there's, you know, money, property, and prestige, you know, became my higher power. And I always say that money, property, and prestige is fantastic. Like, it's fantastic to have a big life. But if your sense of spirituality or God, whatever you want to call it, if it doesn't proportionally get as big, you lose your way. And that happened to me. And I was in a dark hallway for a good five or six years and knowing the whole time that the only way back was the way we know how to get back. And it wasn't until I kind of crashed and burned, you know, on professionally, emotionally, psychologically, you know, relationship wise, that I was willing to sort of go, go. I'm at sea.

[Unknown]

And I wouldn't let go.

[Katie Segal]

She wouldn't let go.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I was like, you know, I'm not a quitter.

[Katie Segal]

But she also had enough of her own recovery to go, this is.

[Kurt Sutter]

This is his problem, not mine, not me.

[Katie Segal]

And I'm grateful that most women would not have stuck around.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

And to suddenly then be willing to, you know, work a program like I worked when I walked in the door, you know, and, you know, our mutual friend of ours, Jeff, you know, was the guy that was my confidant. Even when I was in the dark hallway. I was smart enough to bring in one sober brother that knew everything. And he would always say, hey, maybe we should do some work around that. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea, and not do it. And then. Then when I became willing, he was there and said, yeah, let's do it. And became willing to do that work five years ago now. And, you know, in all, you know, and look, I'm. Everything that brought me to that place is still very much, you know, on the table, but now I have a new perspective. And to bring it back to your point, I lost sight of. Of the greater, you know, the greater good. And because I was so self absorbed and now being able to actually be present. And the pandemic, I know it was brutal, but it was probably the biggest spiritual opportunity for me in that it cleared everything off the table. Everything. And it was just me and my primary relationships. You know, I was. I became willing to do the work and find it again and so grateful. And I'm in love with you. Like, I've never been in love with you at.

[Unknown]

Wow, you sang it on the call.

[Katie Segal]

112 years of marriage, you know.

[Unknown]

I know. It's been a fucking long time. Yeah, well, it's kind of like what you were talking about. I listened to your episode with Esther Perel. She's talking about how you. You can remarry the same person. Do you know what I mean? Like, you. There's people. I mean, I've had three marriages with three different people, but you can also have three marriages within your one marriage. It kind of. You just have to keep. The whole thing has to grow.

[Kurt Sutter]

It's an evolution.

[Unknown]

It is.

[Kurt Sutter]

Requires constant investment. And yeah, you go through different stages with it, but that recommittal process, I mean, I'm sort of in sort of an analogous kind of journey with this myself. And just to kind of. Of take what you shared out of abstraction into kind of something that maybe the audience can understand. I mean, basically.

[Katie Segal]

Please do.

[Unknown]

I hope we're making sense.

[Kurt Sutter]

Allow me to project onto you.

[Katie Segal]

Make a sense of what I'm saying.

[Kurt Sutter]

No, I mean, I know you, and I get it, but tell me if this is like, if this tracks. I mean, essentially you're this aspiring writer, and then you get this staff writing job and you parlay that into a showrunner gig where you create this show, Sons of Anarchy, and it just explodes. Like it's a phenomenon. Like, it is just larger than life. Like, the fan base for that show is insane. I texted Kurt. I was in the east coast and I was at the train station at Penn Station in New York City waiting to board this train to go down to D.C. and there was a businesswoman, very accountant type like woman, and she was holding her iPad and she's watching Sons of Anarchy in the big hall, standing up, holding it, you know, Like, I was like, dude, I mean, a huge women fan base for this show too, which is sort of interesting. And that's a whole other discussion. But anyway, the point being, this is a phenomenon. And not to say that it went to your head, but like, this idea of power, property and prestige, it is an intoxicant, right? And now you're off to the races and what are you gonna do next? And this is your moment, and how am I gonna build upon this? You know? And so that's when the self obsession kind of enters and you lose sight of a. How you got to that place. Like, all the tools that created the individual who was capable of, like, manifesting and executing on all of this, and the casualties being all the people that you care about the most who are knocking on the door saying, hey, Kurt, like, member us? Or like, where are you? And you're like, I'll get to it. You know, you're not going anywhere.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

And then that will play out until you reach a certain point where the pain is sufficient enough to course correct on some level. And I would say that in my case, I mean, this thing is, I never thought I would be a successful person, be able to rub a couple pennies together. And I was coming out of financial wreckage and acting out of urgency and ptsd, and that translated into workaholism. And then it's just like, you got to keep it going, you know, and kids get older and they're gone. And then suddenly you're looking across at your wife and you're like, wait, who are you? You know, and she's like, I've been here. I'm waiting for you. You know, and we're in that process of, like, how do we reconnect and how do we remarry each other and enter this new stage? And as somebody who also, you know, prefers to be reclusive and is intimacy avoidant, you know, like, it's, like, scary, right? Like, well, if she knows who I am, like, this isn't going to work.

[Unknown]

You know, I think we've just parlayed into our po.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, yeah. Who just make one for the whole thing. But anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, like, I can. You know, it's like, the facts of your experience are different, but I can relate to the emotional journey that you've been on. And so, you know, what was the kind of moment where you realize, like, hey, I've put all the things I care about most at risk for these things that society, culture at large is, like, rewarding me for. And when do you figure out that that is, like, an empty prom in comparison to the things that really matter?

[Katie Segal]

I think for me, the moment was, you know, I knew I was in the hallway, and I knew there was not an attractive or half solution out of the problem. And what happened at Fox, then Disney, you know, I. You know, I set all Those fire, I watched them burn. I warmed my hands by them, and I. You know, in hindsight, it was inevitable and basically.

[Kurt Sutter]

Sorry, yeah, I totally understand. You parlay Sons of Anarchy into this other show, Mayans. Right. And you co create this with Elgin James. And I don't know the details of what happened, but basically you imploded that thing. And John Landgraf, who was always your champion at fx and like, kind of this compadre who had shepherded your career was like, no mas and kind of kicks you to the curb.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. I mean, I had already made the decision to hand the show off to Elgin for the third season because I wanted to do other things outside of the motorcycle genre. But my intention was not to completely unplug. And so I got called into John and Dana's. Dana Walden, who is now the head.

[Unknown]

Of the president of the world, president.

[Katie Segal]

Of the television, called me in. And I'm so naive, or so I guess, not naive. I'm so arrogant that I thought I was being called in for a season three pickup. And I walk in and I notice these dudes in suits in the hallway. And I'm like, they don't look like executive. And I got into the room and I just felt the tone. I was like, oh, fuck, I'm peshy and wise guys right now. I'm gonna get whacked. And I did. And I will say this. John who, you know, our careers sort of came up. We came up on the same trajectory. And we both, I believe, were, you know, had the similar struggles. And. And we both. He was a mentor, and the show helped put him on a trajectory. And I would say that John and I are probably better friends now than we've ever been. And when I had some clarity about everything, I was able to go to lunch and essentially thank him, like, recently, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because that was the bottom. It had to hit me at that level that got my attention. Cause my lack of connection to my family, my distance from my wife and my kids, none of that was getting my attention. What got my attention was, you know, we don't need you anymore. And that was the thing that brought me to my knees, where I could suddenly be vulnerable enough and aware enough to look around and go, oh, shit.

[Unknown]

Well, I'd like to just chime in too, because we were still there at a certain point while this all was going on. Before the Mayans thing, he also had tried to leave the marriage. He was not sure he wanted to be in the marriage anymore. So there was that personal piece to It. And so it was kind of a sequence of events that then. That was the ultimate, like, okay. Cause the marriage was then kind of working its way back up. And then that whole Mayan situation happened. And I think that the fact that, you know, we were all still there, we didn't go anywhere, you know, And. And when you have a partner and you know them well and you can see what's going on, and it's really hard not to take it personal, but you just know that at their core, that's not who that person is. Like, even when he was like, screwing up on the. It wasn't the Mayans that he was screwing up. He just didn't really wanna go that much is really all it was. He was done with. But I just know that from my perspective, I could see him just trying to rip everything up. Trying to rip everything up.

[Katie Segal]

And what's interesting is that I had moved out for a little bit and. But came back and like, ultimately, for what, you know, I didn't know why I couldn't leave, right? And I told, you know, it was like we. Esme was very young, and I was like, well, I have to stay for the kid. And that's part of that, is true. But the bigger piece I'm. It is that I knew that that was a decision I needed to make, that I needed to do the work. So I truly understood what it is I was feeling to make that decision, not make it out of fear or self obsession. That's the awareness I had. And began to do the work, thinking, all right, this will give me an.

[Unknown]

Answer, a clear answer.

[Katie Segal]

How I get a clear answer, right? What I realized is the reason I never left or couldn't truly leave is because I wasn't supposed to. Do you know what I mean? And to be able to come back. I don't know if you have this experience, but we have the same fight over and over again. Sure, it's the same fucking argument we have. And it'll depending on, you know, but it's never.

[Unknown]

We're never like, detrimentally arguing.

[Katie Segal]

We're not like, you know.

[Unknown]

You know, it's so interesting to me what we, you know, when we have a partner and what it is that we're supposed to learn, right? So I know what I'm supposed to learn is I have a huge abandonment wound that when we went through all this shit, right?

[Kurt Sutter]

It's just the mirror, you know, are.

[Unknown]

We talking about your life?

[Katie Segal]

Sorry, can you take what I just said and make it more clear for the listener?

[Unknown]

So when we went through all this transition, I had to real. I really got an opportunity. That's what I'll look at it now. As much as it sucked to look at all that and to sort of heal some of that to the place where. Cause I think ultimately in a relationship, you have to know you're gonna be okay no matter what. You're gonna be okay whether you're with this marriage or not. And I had such a big, you know, my parents dying young people. I've lost too many people, you know, just all that shit.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, here we go again.

[Unknown]

Yeah, here we go again. And it was a great opportunity. As my marriage was somewhat threatened. We went through that period of like, do we or don't we or blah, blah, and man, it was painful. But I got to the other side of it to where when it finally did come to where it was supposed to be, like you said, which was that we're supposed to be together, I really felt like, oh my God, this was invaluable. I learned so much across about self love, self care. I'm okay no matter what. I'm not that ugly little fat girl that my dad used to berate, you know, all the shit. I just kind of believe that things don't happen randomly. I think that that is like, exactly what I was supposed to learn.

[Kurt Sutter]

The nugget, the lesson, the beauty for you is having to confront those issues and reach for a deeper sort of surrender and detach from whatever unhealthy kind of relationship you had with just being in a relationship, period. Right? Like, hey, like, I'm confronting this. I have to overcome this fear and get to the place where I know I'm going to be okay either way. Which then of course lands you in this place where you're a healthier person to be in that relationship and you're doing, you know, a different version of the same thing occurred at the same time. Like, it's, it's. It's an incredible thing.

[Unknown]

We tried to get away from each other. It just, we. It. It just wasn't.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. And it's also, you know, and I know you'll appreciate this and connect your own dots to it, but there's that sense of I can't live any other way. Right? Like, I can't avoid my truth because I know I'll. I'll die either physically, emotionally, spiritually, artistically, like, I have to seek my truth. And some people will not, do not want to do that work. And I get it. And to figure it out, they'll just get out. And then however long it takes, they're back in the same rhythm in the same pattern. And I intuitively knew that if I didn't do this work work that I would be in, I would find myself in a similar situation worst down the line, whether with K or with somebody. Like, I just knew it was gonna fucking keep happening if I didn't seek what was happening and seek my own truth and, and, and truly have a sense of what the fuck was going on, that it wasn't gonna get any better, you know, and what I talk about now a lot is the idea that, you know, I'm 64 years old, right? So when I can look at it as, holy shit, I'm this old and I still have to do this kind of work, or I can reframe it and go, Holy shit, I'm 64, and I'm still willing to fucking roll up my sleeves and do the work I need to work. And I always say this, I use him as an example, but Norman Lear at 85 went back and, like, figured out his daddy and went back into therapy, in therapy. And that had such a huge impact on me. And I, I, I don't, I remember, like, maybe two things from the documentary. What stuck with me was like, here was a guy that was seeking and willing to do that. And so now I try to look at that kind of stuff. Not from like, oh, I can't believe I'm still working on this shit, to holy shit, I'm still willing to work on this stuff.

[Unknown]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

The universe put you two together for your own individual growth and evolution, right? And when you can kind of engage in your relationship from that perspective, rather than this person is holding me back or is my enemy, but actually is my teacher, is the mirror that I need right now to reflect back all the things that I actually need to work on and then embrace that as opposed to run away from that.

[Unknown]

And that's the great hindsight take away from it. Not that it's not messy in the. In the middle. I mean, you know, we're making it sound like it was all very altruistic and we all got to this great place and it was fantastic. I cannot tell you how dark some nights got, you know what I mean, where you're just like, holy shit, I'm, you know, I'm a human that cannot hold this amount of whatever this is.

[Kurt Sutter]

I think the other thing or piece that I wanted to kind of underscore is you engaged in this dynamic with all of these tools that you've learned over decades of commitment to your recovery. But the sort of particular acute crisis that you faced, Kurt, is not unique to somebody who suffers from alcoholism. It's a predicament of being in a human body and I think it's particularly acute for men. Right. Like, we're raised in a culture in. In which our value is measured in accordance with, like, our job and, like, you know, our salary and, you know, the trappings of the material world. And you incorporate that over the course of a lifetime, and then you're in a position where you're kind of enjoying the fruits of that. It's not unusual for that to take up a disproportionate, you know, kind of weight in terms of, like, your ego. And, you know, some people. Like, some people. People can sort of drink too much, but be able to do it their whole life so they never have to look in the mirror. And many people have success in the material world, and it's not quite problematic. So again, it's sort of like the gift of bottoming out on drugs and alcohol that you are this extreme person. So you can take that all the way to the edge and have that bottoming out experience so that you can then, you know, okay, here's the next level of growth that's awaiting for me.

[Unknown]

Don't you think, too? I mean, you're the physical dude. Don't you think hormonally there is some kind of change that happens in men for sure. Well, women for sure. But also in men, that sort of decrease in testosterone or whatever it is that happens at a certain age, that suddenly what was enough isn't enough? Or there's kind of like a desperation. I'm gonna say the word midlife crisis, but I hate to say that word because I remember when Kurt was. Some stuff he hated, if I would say, well, that's what. Maybe what. But I think that's hormonal too. Don't you think?

[Kurt Sutter]

I don't know. I don't know if it's hormonal.

[Katie Segal]

I mean, yes. Do. Does. Does that impact mood and all that stuff? And. But I. But I think it goes back. I mean, to look. To bring it back to what we began the conversation about is that, like, money, property, prestige, all that stuff is great, but it's air, right? It doesn't have substance and it doesn't hold esteem, right? The esteem is like. And it's gone. Like the headline and then it's gone, and where's the next. And, you know, and I experienced this coming into another project is that if that's not the fire anymore. If, you know, well, money was never the fire. But respect, prestige, like, that was very important. Like, I. I wanted, you know, artistically, I wanted to be recognized. But when that no longer holds the weight. And it's not the. The. The fire underneath you. What is. Yeah, and that's when you just go, oh, fuck.

[Kurt Sutter]

You're lost at sea.

[Katie Segal]

You're like. That's when you go, the. What I have to look at is, to your point is taking a look at how I got. Got here, right? And go, oh. The way I have to shift it now is it has to be about love and service, right? Like, I am doing this now for love and service because I found that that is the only esteem that lasts, right? That is the only esteem. And as. And every human being. But I. And I don't mean this to sound the way it is, but I think to your point, there's a certain amount that men. There's an expectation that, you know, we, you know, that esteem is very important, right? And it is the ultimate dopamine hit.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. Esteem meaning like the validation of others. Yes.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

And I think.

[Katie Segal]

Or a job well done, right?

[Kurt Sutter]

Of course, like, we want to feel like we're providing value in the world, but we want that recognition for that, right? Like. Like so much of our value is tied up in, like, how we're perce. Like in this culture. And I think to your credit, Kurt, like, being able to recognize that in yourself. I mean, you know, you had these incidents that like, really brought it up for you. But to step out outside of that, like, you know, habit trail and assess, like most people, it's like if you tell, like, they did these studies with billionaires and millionaires, like, what's your number when you're going to retire? Oh, it's 10 million if I get that. Or, you know, then they get it and they're like, like, well, you know, now it needs to be 50, you know, like, it. It never ends, right? Like, this is the thing. It's just there's always another bend, you know, around the way. And we delude ourselves into thinking like, well, just it'll. It'll happen when I get around that next bend. And it's like pursuing it to the gates of hell and death, right? But to be able to go, hold on, like, no, well, enough's enough.

[Unknown]

At a certain point, it's like, how you know what is enough?

[Katie Segal]

And I didn't want to be like, I just remember. I just remember hearing an interview early on when I was a staff writer. And I don't. I don't honestly forget who the writer was, but it was a well established writer and he was so fucking miserable. And I thought, why is this guy, like, how could he be unhappy? How could. And. And as I closed in on that sense of like, well, that doesn't mean anything anymore, I understood, like, oh, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the guy who has to go to work. And it just becomes, like, laborious. Like, if I'm truly driven artistically to do what I do, I have to find that fire. And if it's not the Atta Boys and the paycheck, what is it? And it has to be about, well, here's an opportunity for me to be of service. What I do is of service. And how can I engage people and give them a sense of ownership of what they do and really look at things through a completely different lens? That, yes, it's my vision, but that if I don't open my eyes to how it impacts everybody else, there's no, you know, there's no path.

[Unknown]

Right. We're in entertainment, you know, that's a service job. Entertainment is a service job because we're perfect. Providing emotional, whatever humor, whatever it is for people. That's what we do.

[Kurt Sutter]

I don't think that, yes, it's particularly acute for men, but it's not like it's a gender specific thing. But I think the difference in your relationship is you grew up, Katie, in this world, right? So it's been around you. It doesn't hold the same kind of fascination and allure. Whereas for Kurt, it's like he traveled across the country and had a dream, and it's like, oh, my God, I'm here. Like. And then it happened fast. Not fast, but it seems like.

[Unknown]

No, it did happen fast.

[Kurt Sutter]

From getting the job at the Shield to Sons of Anarchy was pretty compressed period of time, right?

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

No, I always say, because I grew up around it, so this is like the family business. I just remember my father coming home exhausted. I mean, there was nothing glamorous really about it. I mean, it was just. Unless I took my elementary school friends over to, well, Dr. Kildare, a man from uncle being shot. That was a lot of friends.

[Kurt Sutter]

He's a director on those shit. That's pretty cool.

[Unknown]

That was pretty cool. Then it was like, oh, that's kind of glamorous. But, you know, other than that, it was just, you know, it's interesting to have kids going in it too, you know, and you're just like, I remember when they were little, letting them know every time I did not get the job. I did not want this to look like an easy breeze. You just, you know, happens and so I think they have a pretty realistic view of it because I grew up with it. I just grew up knowing this is a gig, you know, this is not going to change my life.

[Katie Segal]

Well, Jackson has that sense of every time a job's over, he'll never work again. Yeah, yeah, we've given him that gift.

[Kurt Sutter]

Because it is that, like, Kurt, as somebody who came here hungry, right, and now you're raising kids in privilege, and it's sort of like. Like, there's expectations that come with that and all of that. And, like, this is the dilemma of success, Right?

[Katie Segal]

It really is. Especially in parenting.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Well. And I also just wanna say, as we're talking about this, money, power and prestige, you know, it's easy for us to say all that coming from Hollywood elite people where we have made some money and had some power. You know, if you're a person and you're listening and that is not your experience, you know, maybe you have achieved that thing that you thought was so, you know, it's easy for us to say all this, in other words, is what I'm saying. You know, it's because we've achieved certain things that we set out to. And so I don't want us to sound so, like.

[Katie Segal]

No, but I think there's parallels, you know, regardless, in terms of the arc of that, with most folk. You know what I mean? Obviously.

[Unknown]

Right, right. Different. Yes, absolutely.

[Katie Segal]

You know, there's a version of this that makes sense for somebody that is pursuing something completely different, but still has, you know, an ambition or, you know, I believe.

[Kurt Sutter]

But we're all looking for meaning, right? We're all in search of purpose in our lives. And so the message, regardless of how successful or not successful you are, is that the answer? As much as we want it to be found in property, power, prestige, these things, it ultimately isn't. And, yes, it's convenient to say that as somebody who has that right. And it falls on years, like, yeah, for you, but not for me.

[Unknown]

Right, right.

[Kurt Sutter]

And everybody has to have their own journey with that. But I guess the message really, to somebody who. Who lacks that and aspires to have that is that those things are good. Like, it's not like, oh, they're bad, but. But, like, the deeper meaning and purpose of, like, being in a human experience is not going to be found there. It will make other things in your life better and easier, but it's not going to provide the thing deep, deep, deep within you that is for anybody looking for answers, I guess.

[Unknown]

I always think money is about you know, it's convenience and freedom, and it.

[Kurt Sutter]

Does provide you with that.

[Unknown]

It does, absolutely.

[Katie Segal]

And time.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. In terms of, like, arcs, there also is, like, this other arc with Kurt, which is in his, like, you know, spider version of himself. Yeah, I remember, like, way back when, you know, in the blogging era. And I think maybe we talked about this when you were on the show the first time, which was, like, back in, like, when was that? Like, 2000.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. Man.

[Kurt Sutter]

You would get in all these scrapes and you would like, do these tell all blog posts where you were naming names and just, like, speaking out of school at Bad Boy Hollywood. Maybe that Katie made you fall more in love with them. And, like, here's the Bad Boy I was looking for. But. And there was something punk rock about that. Like, look at this guy. He's the only guy who's unafraid to, like, call it as he sees it. And I'm sure that was a rush. And then you had to start kind of like, you got the bill for that, had to pay it.

[Unknown]

Stop pushing, Sam.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

And then, you know, you're on Twitter and picking fights with people and, you know, like. And then finally, like, that all disappeared. So clearly you had some kind of, you know, comeuppance with that. And then just to finish kind of like the arc part of it, even in the wake of the John Landgraf, like, Mayans experience, you wrote this letter, right? Like, it was sort of a. You were defending your position, like, and kind of calling out where you thought, like, the way it was being characterized was unfair. Like, this is actually not what happened. Here's what happened, and owning some aspect of it. But there was a self defensiveness piece to it. And now here you are on the other side of a sort of analogous experience with this latest project. The abandons which you created and wrote and were there and made it all the way through most of the production of the first season. And once, once again, I've sort of been. I don't know the circumstances of this, but you've walked away from that project. But what's different is there's no letter. There's no defensiveness. There's no angry name calling blog posts or Twitter spats over this. There seems to be, and I'm saying this as somebody who knows nothing other than reading a Deadline piece and knowing you, to me, there's the evolution, like, the emotional maturity, and so is this exposure. Explain like that if you could.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, look, I think, you know, I will say that there is some of the exit Language is still being negotiated because it will come up, obviously, when the show premieres. And, you know, to what people already know, which is the old standard creative differences is, you know, I had a great experience with my creative partners at Netflix, and for a year and a half, we were on a similar path. And, you know, and at some point in the production, I became aware that perhaps we were making two different shows, and that my vision and the way I wanted to make it did not necessarily line up with what it is they needed for their platform. And, you know, I am a fully immersive. Eat, drink, sleep. I do not leave my work at home. I do not leave my work at set. Those characters talk to me all the time. I am on set all the time. I am, you know, probably to my own detriment, engaged. And I. When I became aware that my vision was not what the algorithm needed, I. You know, yes, it was hard. It was difficult to step away. But I also know that even if I wanted to or could, I don't think I could have written the show or created that show or continued to produce that show any differently than I was, because I was not capable of now manifesting what it is their algorithm needed. And it was painful to, you know, to come to that decision and come to that end. But I. But I also know that I know myself well enough, and I know what it is I do well. And, you know, what's a good fit and what's not a good fit. And. And so I think the difference is coming out of this circumstance without any regret or remorse for my behavior, my actions, my creative input. Like, I feel pretty whole and clean about all of that. So as difficult as it was, that there's no, you know, there's no lingering sense of, you know, damn you, you.

[Unknown]

Know, Can I just say, my perspective?

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

You're more angry than I am, though.

[Unknown]

No, I'm not. Well, I'm not angry right now. I would just say that, you know, Kurt went into that project really with the understanding that I want to do this differently than I've done things before. As we've. As he's talked about the lessons learned from the past, and he did that. I mean, he came into that project with the attitude and enthusias of love and service, of collaboration, all the things that perhaps that guy that was writing all the Twitter shit before was fists up in the air. He was not that guy. And I think he's handled himself. It's just so great when you want to do things differently, you know, how people Say to you, like, well, this is just who I am. And you're just like, no, man. Don't limit yourself like that. And so I watched Kurt really morph into what this, you know, we set an intention of. This is how I want to do something, and he did it, and he did it. And so I think I'm just commending you on the way you handled it. And you're right. He has handled it without any of that rancor that happened before.

[Kurt Sutter]

No letters and no arrows to shoot or people to blame or whatever. But I think it highlights this other thing, which is this tension between, like, commerce and art. Like, your. Your artistic integrity. Like, this is your superpower, right? Like your imagination. You're very protective. Like, you have a vision and you're not going to compromise. And the scruffs that you've gotten in seem to be kind of, you know, relevant to, like, somebody trying to encroach on that, right? And you're in a collaborative medium, so that's inevitable, right? But the reason you've been able to have this career is because you are so committed to that. You believe so strongly in, like, the specificity of your vision. So this is what gives birth to all of these great things and yet often becomes this Achilles heel. And a collaborative medium that's also commercial, right? And so Netflix, I mean, the one, like, it's not really a bar, but, like, the one little edge to, like, what you shared is like, algorithm, right? Like, yeah, fuck you, algorithm, right? And, like, the algorithm is why, you know, this is why Netflix is Netflix.

[Katie Segal]

But here's the deal. And I mean, this. This is absolutely being truthful with this, is that, you know, there will be a. You know, the writing was good. The acting was great. The directing was like, the pieces of it are all there. Now. I'm not doing the final third of it, which is post, where I pick the music, where I put it together, where I do the final rewrite. So it is not wholly. It is not my. My project. But, you know, I'm a guy who loves empirical data, right? The algorithm is driven by empirical data. So I'm not saying the algorithm is wrong. They may very well be right. Like, it's a, you know, most likely the show that they end up putting together that fits that algorithm will be more successful than perhaps the more tangential whatever show that I had intended it to be. I can come out of it with a sense of, like, oh, that's a hard lesson that, you know, I've learned. And where is it that now, in this landscape, where is it that my kind of storytelling fits? You know, that is the lesson, and. Or not the lesson, but that's the awareness, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

I don't say that as a bad thing. It is why they. They are who they are. And I mean that. It's like that version of the show may very well do better than any other version that could have come out, and I can't. And also, it's their fucking money, right? So they can do whatever they want with it. So I really, you know, like, I. And I know that, like, I had to take a step back and go, yes, that's not my show. But. But that may be a show that everybody wants to watch. Do you know? And that's humbling. Right? But it's true. The algorithm isn't somebody's fancy. It's. I've seen the depth of the data. It's fascinating, really. It's fucking fascinating.

[Kurt Sutter]

They could basically tell you everything about who's watching, what for how long, and why.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, and it was. It was amazing. We live in a culture that usually isn't driven by empirical data, at least in some social and political realms.

[Unknown]

It's kind of like, who's to say what's right, what's wrong? It's all perception. It's like, you might be right, but.

[Kurt Sutter]

Having that entertainment is a service business. You're here to serve audiences. The people who are paying the bills are. Saying what you want to do isn't really in service of the audience in the way that we would like it to be. And being able to gracefully say, I get that, you know, and. And not harbor resentment or, you know, give them the middle finger. And your. Your daughter is in the project, right? Sarah's in, like, yeah.

[Unknown]

And I have a little bit of a thing in it, too. And we'll see if we're still there.

[Katie Segal]

And look, here's the deal, dude. Was I resentful? Was I, you know, was I hurt? Absolutely.

[Kurt Sutter]

But you didn't do those things that you've done in the past. That's the actual.

[Katie Segal]

I can understand that Those feelings don't last forever. They don't define me. And again, knowing, doing, you know, digging in and looking at my part and going, okay, they didn't sting as deeply.

[Kurt Sutter]

Did you. Did you. Did you write the emails and just not hit send or, like, what. Did you. I mean, I think this is, like, there is a universal kind of lesson in this, because we all run into similar situations in which, like, shit goes sideways and we want to blame Other people, and we're reluctant to, like, look at our side of the street and all of that. So when you're like, I did all this work so that I didn't behave that way, like, for somebody who isn't in recovery or, you know, doesn't understand, like, kind of what that means, like, what is that? What is the work? Like, what, what did you do to kind of grow emotionally to handle it differently?

[Katie Segal]

I have a good team. I have a great, I have an agent that I love and I have a great lawyer. And I'm able to go to them and invent and, and, and, you know, now it's, it's very interesting. I was telling somebody the other day that I was telling my, telling Mike shrink. We were talking about it and I said that, I said, I'm pretty cool. I said, and we. He knows my, he plays tennis with my lawyer. And I said, I just can't go to Michael about it because he gets more upset than I do now.

[Kurt Sutter]

It's the most Hollywood thing ever.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Kurt Sutter]

He's like, I was asking you, like, what is the emotional work that you, that you did that would be relatable to the audience? You're like, well, I called my lawyer and my agent, but then I, then my shrink talks to my lawyer. It's like, no, no, no.

[Katie Segal]

But meaning, Meaning I went to people who could understand the experience and I threw up on them.

[Unknown]

And me too. Like, I got it. I mean, we all, you know, he processed it with the right people.

[Katie Segal]

So whatever you do, you have those confidants, those people that understand that you can. And then vomit on and, you know, and then let that go and try to look for some self awareness and some acknowledgement of perhaps your part and then, you know, steer the ship a little bit away from perhaps something that might result in an action that ultimately you regret or that sets you back even further.

[Unknown]

You know, to me, it kind of does go back to that recovery piece where, you know, we have to figure out our part. When you do step work, you have to figure out your part. That's how you release it, the resentment. So I think it works in all areas where you just are like, there's always your part. There's, there's always two. So I think once you, once you get to the place where you can realize, okay, here's what I, you know, then you're able to not push send. You're able to write the email maybe or tell this somebody and just, you know, not.

[Katie Segal]

Sometimes I can't talk to her about it because she still gets more angry than I do, you know.

[Unknown]

Well, because it was. It's a beautiful piece of work that I watched a lot of time and investment and serious love go into, and so it was a bit. Yeah. Pissed me.

[Kurt Sutter]

Well, it's. Yeah, I can imagine you pour your heart into this thing, and you're living and breathing it, and then they're like, thanks, but we'll take it from here. I mean, it's like, you're not human if you're not feeling the pain of that. And, you know, I'm sure it will be a challenge. Is it still coming out in the spring?

[Katie Segal]

Supposed to.

[Unknown]

We don't know. We don't know when happening, really.

[Katie Segal]

Honestly, I've had, you know, I mean, as you say, I've had to detach myself. That was very easy because, you know, I had to detach myself. So, yeah, I think that's the plan. And, look, my sense is that I, you know, it ebbs and flows. But I think, to your point, and I heard your. As you said that it was like, it was a beautiful experience, and it was a beautiful piece of work, and it was a beautiful world. And, you know, yes, it didn't land or go the way I thought it would or perhaps wanted it to, but I. I know all of that is true.

[Unknown]

And you still did it.

[Katie Segal]

You know what I mean? So I know on some level that seems like, oh, that makes it worse. But, like, I also go, yeah, but I got to fucking. I got to do that.

[Unknown]

Have the experience of it.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, you got to express your vision and be true to your artistic sensibilities. And then you had the opportunity to grow by detaching your identity or your ego to this thing that you created and letting other people, like, put their fingerprints on it.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, what he just said, that's what I did.

[Unknown]

That's right. That's exactly right.

[Kurt Sutter]

Here's the other thing. Like, we're in a interesting cultural moment, and it's easy for a lot of people to point fingers at people like yourselves. Oh, the Hollywood elite, like, it's this monolith, right? And you represent, like, one ideology or something like that, and you're a whipping post for a lot of different ideas. But set against that, speaking of algorithms, like, we're seeing these massive tech shifts in the media landscape, and the movie industry is being impacted by this. And so coming out of the pandemic, we see theater attendance plummeting and the explosion of the streamers, and now kind of like the challenges that all these Streamers are having and trying to make it this thing that seems like it should be profitable, but actually isn't, unless you're Netflix. A lot of money being spent. A lot of movie stars doing television shows. It's all blended. And is this a movie? Is this a tv? Is it a limited series? Like, there are shows on right now that are extraordinary. Like Michael Fassbender in the Agency based on that show. Le Bureau, which is the Bureau, is amazing. Incredible. Like, Laburo is one of the best things I've ever seen.

[Unknown]

Me too.

[Kurt Sutter]

And now they're reimagining it for an American audience.

[Unknown]

Is it as good?

[Kurt Sutter]

It's tracking very closely. Like, it's very. The fidelity to the original storyline is. Is pretty clear and there's some flair. It's CIA and it's set in the London office. So it has a. And it's all British people that are doing it. And it's being done at such a high level. I haven't heard one person talk about this show and I'm obsessed with it. I just think it's my point being incredible talent, incredible projects. Are people watching this? Is this a business model? Is this working? And if it's. It's not like that, money's going to go elsewhere soon. What is this? Augur for people like you that are in this ecosystem and in this economy, there's an uncertainty. Things are not the way they used to be and the way they were for a very long period of time. I'm confident business models will get figured out. On the one hand, it looks like there's more opportunities for creative people because there's so many projects going on. But the ability to actually, like, make a living doing this has never been more precarious or difficult.

[Katie Segal]

Here's my prediction.

[Kurt Sutter]

This is why you're doing a podcast.

[Katie Segal]

It's not even a prediction.

[Unknown]

It's like, no, not for money, actually.

[Katie Segal]

It's more just turning around behind and looking at history. Right. The same way they thought television would kill radio, that it would kill movies. Like streaming was going to destroy the movie industry. There is a glut. And you have people now that realize the experience of going to the cinema is half of it. Right? Of enjoying whatever. Now, has the movie industry taken a hit? Has theaters taken a hit? Absolutely. But I do think, and I say this because ultimately there will be no more subscribers and it's already happening. There will be an ad based system coming to Netflix and it will all go back around.

[Kurt Sutter]

You're already seeing it. Like, I'm Watching something on Amazon prime and we're showing ads and it's like, didn't I pay to not have this? Like, what is going on?

[Katie Segal]

It's the only.

[Kurt Sutter]

It's gonna go back to the way it was.

[Katie Segal]

TV was invented to sell soap.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Katie Segal]

It's the only reason we have television. It was something they needed, something to put between the ads. And it is the only revenue model that services the greater sources of revenue. And it will. It is inevitable that it goes back to some sort of ad revenue system. It just is. And when that begins to happen, you ultimately have, you know, there's a limit to the people who are willing to pull out dollars. And I do think, not that it'll shrink back to what it was, but I think you will see things, you know, level out and begin to, you know, there's going to, you know, we are stretched right now.

[Unknown]

It's really hard to sell things right now. That's what I do hear a lot. And know personally, it's just, there's a lot more picking and choosing going on and you know, everybody's trying to figure it out. But I think ultimately I always, you know, I just think entertainment survives. Like the whole conversation with AI and is it going to be this? Is it going to be that? I think at the end of the day, human experience is what we're banking on can never not be marketable. So I just think that, you know, we're just going through a cleaning out process right now and I think it will bounce back. I agree with Kurt. I think it'll be some sort of broadcasty revenue stream. It just has to be.

[Katie Segal]

And the irony is that unless you're Ted Sarando, I guess Uncle Ted, he's.

[Kurt Sutter]

Out buying a mountain now and building a mountain out something.

[Katie Segal]

There's this energy around television right now because it's so. With other platforms, it's so connected to other product. Right. That there's such caution about the entertainment piece impacting the other markets that.

[Kurt Sutter]

What does that mean?

[Unknown]

You mean like Apple and Amazon?

[Katie Segal]

Like Apple and Amazon, what they actually sell, it's like they don't want to do anything that fucks up iPhone sales. Right. And so there's this weird like swing back in terms of ideology and limitations and content.

[Kurt Sutter]

Oh, absolutely.

[Katie Segal]

Like there was like in the 1950s on CBS, right. It's this weird, like it's limitless content that has to be right here and.

[Kurt Sutter]

Less gatekeepers and unmediated in all these ways. And yeah, you've seen the clapback. Like I think that the place where I notice it the most is in the documentary space. In the beginning, like, Netflix was like a haven for documentary filmmakers. And all these edgy, really cool documentary documentaries would show up there and you would get exposed to wonderful work that you ordinarily would never see. And they really built their business on that. That was a leading edge kind of reason to subscribe to Netflix. And then it became about growth into all these foreign territories and any kind of documentaries that were speaking truth to power that would threaten the growth of those subscriber opportunities. There's no reason for Netflix to put a show like that on its platform. It doesn't matter how good the movie is.

[Unknown]

Now it's crime. Now it's all true crime.

[Kurt Sutter]

It's all true crime and it's algorithm. This is what people want, right. This obviously works so that you're just seeing more and more and more of that and it gets diluted to the point where the other thing that it has to come back around to is human imagination. Right. And the artistic voice and the vision. And maybe AI will be able to like, you know, manufacture that. Not anytime soon, hopefully. But that's all you have as an artist, right? Like, that's all that you can, like, go back to and rely upon.

[Katie Segal]

You should absolutely have. You should get Landgraaff on your podcast.

[Kurt Sutter]

I'd love to.

[Katie Segal]

You know, because he is. He's so fucking smart and, and has such a strong and educated and experiential point of view about everything you're talking about. And he, unlike me, has a way of delivery in a, in a very, you know. You know, John is the king of the world.

[Kurt Sutter]

Not like in a bar fight way.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, but, but he, but he's extraordinary in his understanding. And the, as you said, you know, how every, the, the. How everything is getting, you know, diluted and, and homogenized in a way that is undermining the very thing we're trying to support or manifest. You know, that's my. That's my little plug.

[Kurt Sutter]

So where does that leave, like the two of you? The future. Like, how do you evaluate, like, what you're doing next and manage the kind of fear and uncertainty that comes with.

[Unknown]

How to manage it? Well, cause there's lots of fear and uncertainty is to stay present and know that for today there's enough. I don't know. For me, I sort of. I just did a great show called One Piece, which is for Netflix and based on a Japanese manga show. It's the second season of their live action. I played this really cool character. So that was really fun. And you know, for me it's a little. It's definitely different than what he does. I mean, he has to make up a whole bunch of shit. I can be a hired gun on something that's well written and, you know, I'm just like a gun for hire right now. So I don't ever know what the. What's next. I'm the first one to say I'll never work again. So. And I know that's not true. It's been proven that it's not true. But Kurt has to remind me.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, I mean, it's also, for me, I know that everything that I've done that has moved forward in a way, you know, to progress to production or whatever is, I would say 95% of the time is something that I didn't see coming. Right. And now it comes out of effort. Meaning I have to still write every day. I still have to try to, you know, pick up, look at projects that I've started working on. You know, like, I have to be engaged and move forward, forward. But I guess I've been doing it long enough and I have enough trust. It's not even faith at this point.

[Kurt Sutter]

Right.

[Katie Segal]

If I'm looking at it happening over and over again, it becomes, I trust that process. So I can trust that if I keep doing what I'm doing, that if something is supposed to come along, even if I wanted to try to figure it out, chances are I'm not going to be able to. The key, the key is still showing up to work, knowing that this is leading to where I'm going. This is not where I'm going, if that makes sense.

[Kurt Sutter]

In a sort of war of art, Steven Pressfield kind of way.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

It's just the idea that I show up for the work, show up and know it.

[Kurt Sutter]

You show up in the rooms, you show up for the page, you show up for the audition, Right?

[Katie Segal]

Yep.

[Unknown]

That's what you do. And I mean, this is why we were talking about our kids who are trying to all do this. And it is such a different world now. And to say to them, you know, they've chosen this insane non linear thing to do. There is no like track, you know, you are constantly having to reinvent.

[Kurt Sutter]

There's no bright way.

[Unknown]

There's no like, you know, ladder that you climb up necessarily. And you know, it just takes a little bit of like I always tell my kids and I tell anybody that's young doing, like you have to sort. You have to have this Kind of faith in your talent that it's also built on that I can't do anything else. I don't know what else to do. And not that you don't. There's plenty of artistic people that have to find something else to do. But, you know, it just takes like. It's just kind of crazy, man. It's insane what we do and to trust that it's gonna keep going.

[Kurt Sutter]

You're all carnival people.

[Unknown]

It's really circus people. We call ourselves circus people because we move a lot. We're always like one year we had this big ass house that we bought right when we got married. And you know, I think we both lost our shows right at the same time. And we were like, okay, pack it up, time to go. And we downsized just a little bit, you know, and then, you know, you just kind of. I mean, for me, that's how I grew up. My dad was always like, you know, from the big house to the littler house, you know, it's just, it just kind of goes along with, you know, I tell myself you live in uncertainty.

[Katie Segal]

You know, I remember telling this, I think it was probably both Jackson and Sarah, but that, you know, when you go like auditioning and for me, doing that work I do every day is part of the job, me doing the next job. So that when you're auditioning, you're not auditioning for that project, you're auditioning for the project you're gonna get six months down the line. And having that perspective for me, it allow. I take, it takes the pressure off of me to go, what am I I doing? How is this gonna sell? Is this like I can just go, oh, this is what I have to do. And in terms of auditioning, like, it takes the pressure off of like, I gotta get this, you know, I gotta get, you know, it's like, no, I do my, do the best I can.

[Kurt Sutter]

You do it because you do it. It's. It's a way of saying like, it's about the process.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. Like, and it's hard, it's hard to do when you're not working and when you're fearful and. But it really is, you know, there has to be that kind of approach no matter what it is.

[Unknown]

I like what you said about trust. That's a great way to, you know, because I'm always couching it as faith. But it's really like you can kind of trust your experience that, you know, it's happened. So it's gonna keep happening. I'm saying this to Myself.

[Katie Segal]

No, that was a Bill Burns thing.

[Unknown]

Oh, really?

[Katie Segal]

Yeah, he had a whole talk about that.

[Kurt Sutter]

Do you think like what you do is only for the people who feel like they just couldn't do anything else. It's sort of like to go into the arts, it's not a meritocracy in the commercial sense and there's so much un. Uncertainty and it's a beautiful way to live because you're marrying like, you're like. I think what's so kind of under appreciated is the artist's life, especially as someone who's like, you know, it's about like my artistic integrity. Like there's something about that, that inward journey that is also about like knowing yourself. Right. Like it is a spiritual thing. Like it's a spiritual practice and it's a, it's a way of being, it's a way of life more than it is like a career track. And that's not for everybody. So for somebody who is aspiring to a creative career or thinking about it, like you mentioned, like things that you tell young people, like what is the counsel that you, that you would give?

[Unknown]

What I would say is you have to really want it. You have to really want it. All the good and the bad of it, you know, the struggle of it. And you know, because it's insane. I mean, it's like. And it's very, very limited as to who gets on the other side of the wall. You know, there's this big wall and then if you get into the pool, that's a big step. And a lot of people just don't. And so you just, you know. I don't know. My parents used to always talk to me about a plan B and I was always like, bullshit, I'm not having a plan B. I don't know, you know, I sing and I. This is what I do. I don't know what else to do. I remember right before I started working in television, I thought, well, I do like houses. Maybe I'll. I guess I could sell real estate. I guess I could.

[Kurt Sutter]

Well, I mean, LA's filled. I mean, all real estate agents are.

[Rich Roll]

People who came here to be.

[Kurt Sutter]

To pursue something in Hollywood.

[Unknown]

So that sounded like pretty awful. So, I mean, luckily, you know, shit happens, you know.

[Kurt Sutter]

But I, but the plan B thing, it's like if you have a plan B, then you're the. When it gets hard, you're probably the first person to lean on plan B. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I don't really, you know, I don't even know the answer to that. Question. Except to love what you do. I mean, it is a blessing to be able to be an artist. I. I mean, I remember Ron Perlman telling me this when he was talking to me about his kids who were also in the arts. And what he would say to them was, the greatest gift of my life is to be able to do art. And so how do you discourage a child from wanting to do that? Now, if my kids were not talented, I think I would be the first to tell them, you know what? Mm. Mm. Not for you. And I would say it very, very honestly. But, you know, they're talented, so I get it. And I don't know if I have any advice except just jump in with both feet and be your own best advocate.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah. I mean, you don't want to discourage somebody who has a dream. Right. And when you like, someone, like shadow artists. Right. Like, if you are, you know, kind of attracted to this world, there's lots of different jobs and occupations.

[Unknown]

Oh, absolutely, yes. But, you know, it's. I don't know. I don't know, man. Now I really understand my parents. My dad was very discouraging of me being in the arts. My second brother went to law school. He's the only one of the kids in the family that didn't go into. Even though he was an entertainment lawyer. But my dad was so, like, that was his favorite. Cause he went to Harvard and did all the stuff, you know, and. But I was just in my room banging on my piano, thinking, this is what I'm gonna do. And I just remember him just so worried about me. So worried. In fact, he's the guy. He got me a SAG card because my dad gave me a bit part in something. Because, you know, getting a SAG card is hard.

[Kurt Sutter]

Right. If you're gonna be a musician, how are you gonna get health insurance?

[Unknown]

So that was his deal. He was like, all right, well, you're going to get a SAG card, so whatever you do, you'll have health insurance. Which years later, I appreciated much more than. At the time, I thought he was trying to force me. You're trying to make me be an actor. I don't want to be an actor. That's what I thought.

[Katie Segal]

Hated actors.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he didn't like actors, but he didn't hate them. He understood the intolerable nature of them sometimes.

[Kurt Sutter]

Well, I have so much respect for both of you individually as our artist, but even more so, like, your commitment to your spiritual growth and your commitment to each other and to see the evolution of your marriage. And your relationship. And it's evident how close you are now. And that's a product of the work that I'm sure you've both invested in this process. And like I said, it's a process that I'm in right now. And so it's inspiring to see you thrive driving in this way.

[Katie Segal]

Yeah. Thank you, man. That means a lot.

[Kurt Sutter]

Thank you. This was great, man. We did it. How did it do it? You feel all right?

[Katie Segal]

I think so.

[Kurt Sutter]

We did. We do it all right?

[Katie Segal]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I didn't. You know, like, were we too personal?

[Katie Segal]

No, it's good because you have super. You have, like, super intelligent guests on the show.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Katie Segal]

We're just like, whatever we gotta talk about.

[Kurt Sutter]

No, this is great.

[Katie Segal]

Like, I didn't know I should juggle. I didn't know what the.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, but, like, if those people come on and they're not coming from the heart, you know what I mean? Like, these are the conversations that I. That I love the most and I savor and, you know, reflect on the most. So. All right, everybody. So. So check out pie. It stands for people. Inspiration.

[Unknown]

Influences. Influences and experiences.

[Kurt Sutter]

Nature and nurture means. What? What does that mean?

[Unknown]

Nature and nurture.

[Katie Segal]

Nature and nurture. We sort of dive into. Not what it is you do, but what created the person that wanted to do it. So it's more about understanding how someone became who they are. So we try to take a deep dive into. Into, you know, not into exposing trauma or anything like that, but as much as to understand how, like, a perfect example we were just talking about was with Rain, right? Understanding his story that led to that guy is like, you know, like, when you hear his story, you're like, holy shit.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah.

[Katie Segal]

You know, so that's what we love is like, being able to immediately get to that level of conversation. Conversation that sort of digs deeper than most people perhaps are used to doing in either this format or, you know, and then. And then, you know, we're not stupid. So there is a portion where you get to talk about the shit you're doing and.

[Unknown]

And eat pie.

[Katie Segal]

And eat pie and sell shit, you.

[Unknown]

Know, but we're gonna. We. We. We like to talk about, you know, marriage and parenting and all that stuff, too, because, you know, we are all products of where we come from. So, you know, we'll. We'll. We'll tear you open, Rich. No, not really.

[Kurt Sutter]

Yeah, no, it's good. Available on all the. In all the places, right? On YouTube. The Kurt Sutter YouTube page.

[Katie Segal]

Yes.

[Kurt Sutter]

We do all the podcast places yes, we.

[Katie Segal]

We're on YouTube and on my channel and. And then in podcast land.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kurt Sutter]

There you go. Welcome to that wonderful world of podcast.

[Unknown]

I love your. This is so cool.

[Kurt Sutter]

Well, you're welcome anytime. Thanks you guys. That was. That was really fun. I appreciate it.

[Unknown]

Much love.

[Kurt Sutter]

Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.

[Rich Roll]

To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussion discussed today, visit the episode [e-mail] where.

[Kurt Sutter]

You can find the entire podcast archive.

[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

The Plant Power Way, as well as.

[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

Created by Blake Curtis with assistance by.

[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

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[Kurt Sutter]

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[Rich Roll]

See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.