← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
Proof Of Life: Jennifer Pastiloff On Silencing Your Inner Critic, Transforming Childhood Trauma, & The Radical Power Of Self-Acceptance
02:08:41
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- [00:02]
Rich Roll
Hey, everybody. Very quick ask. We are running an audience survey and I'd love for you to take a moment to check it out@richroll.com survey. Why are we doing this? Well, first and foremost, we really want to know you better. And the more we know who you are and what interests you most, the better that we can align the show with what matters most to you, the kinds of guests, conversations and themes that you find most meaningful. Second, as you know, the show would not be possible without the amazing brand partnerships that support it, which, of course means ad breaks. But I really want to make the experience the best it can be. Better, more relevant, and frankly, less intrusive. And to do that, to do it well, we need to understand you a little bit better. So it's super simple, just two minutes, tops. But it's a small, direct way you can help us keep evolving and improving the podcast. So thanks in advance. And Again, please visit richroll.com survey to fill out our audience survey. All right, let's do the show.
- [01:13]
Jen Pasteloff
I had a core belief, and no one could convince me otherwise. I was a bad person. I believed in every part of me that change equaled death. I lived in what I call tlod, land of denial, where if I name it, it's gonna become real. And if I ignore it, it. My son just turned nine and he goes, mommy, nothing you do is wrong. I realized that is what I've been waiting for my whole life. I was waiting for someone to tell me, it's not your fault. Shame loss is about. I don't have to tell the world all my details, but I will not hide in shame. If you are willing to stop lying to yourself, that is the ultimate game changer.
- [02:04]
Rich Roll
Hey, everybody. Thanks for dropping by. Thanks for making it here. And for those of you who are here for the first time, for finally tapping in, like, what took you so long? How many of you here are new to the show? Just here, like, on a complete flyer? Or maybe because you're in it, like, really in it right now and looking for a little guidance, a little inspo, something a bit more uplifting than whatever your algorithm decided to foist upon you to hijack your dopamine system and outrage you before you've even had, like, a minute to get yourself together so you can get through the day. Well, listen, I think it's going to be okay. I'm not going to solve your problems here today, but I think you made the right choice. Because what I do here, or at least what I try to do here, is I try to carve out a space away from all the lunacy and provide you with something a little bit more meaningful than perhaps what you're used to. Because I'm not really interested in gaming the Internet to grab your attention, which seems to be the game that everyone who puts anything up on the Internet right now is playing. I'm actually interested in being helpful, not in like a reductive, let me tell you what you need to do, sort out your life kind of way, but in a way that hopefully is a little more real, a little more honest. At least that's my aim in all of this and really always has been since I started this thing more than 13 years ago, which I'm really trying to hold on to amidst incentives that are out there that I think have, I think it's fair to say, has sort of deranged the minds of a lot of podcasters out there in this space to the point where the only consideration is analytics. But when all you care about is how to farm attention, how to grab eyes and ears, how to grow that, there's a cost to that, in my opinion, which is that it sacrifices substance and it gets in the way of what we're even doing here. You know, why I'm even doing this thing in the first place, if that why was even meaningful to begin with. So anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm trying to hold on to that why, which is why I'm kind of back to doing these longer intros. Because I don't care about playing the stupid game of trying to trick you or manipulate you into sticking around with a bunch of bullshit bells and whist. I have to believe that you're here for a reason, and I'm interested in honoring that because I don't take your attention for granted. And I would much prefer to honor it by creating something, by providing you with something that is asking something of you, something that will challenge you, something real, at least for one of you out there, so that you can leave this experience, maybe asking a few questions of yourself and hopefully, you know, departing the experience a little bit better for having invested time in what I've invested in and my team has invested in on your behalf. So I realize that what I just said might come off to you as sort of holier than thou. That is not my intention because I'm definitely not a know it all, but I do know that there is value in aspiring to be a signal amidst the noise. A signal that is authentic. That's Earnest. That's optimistic because I don't know about you, but right now, from my perspective, there is a shitload of high volume noise out there. Noise that seems to be penetrating all of us with a frequency that just seems to be getting increasingly more cynical and more vitriolic. And what I think we need more of, what I need more of is. Is authenticity, earnestness. A signal that feels real because it is real. So, yeah, that was quite a roundabout journey I just took you on there. But this is where my head's at. This is where my focus lands. This is where my intention rests. So if you are new, this is the deal. This is what I'm about. This is what this show is about. And so welcome. Hopefully you get what you need here. And if not, that's cool too. I got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one. But first, we're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at GO Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy, Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called go, which ended up being this really incredible weekend, oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but, you know, that was kind of that. And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called go. GO Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today. One of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource. Like most companies, they handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries. Now in over 5,000 locations across 20 states and available online, the Salty AF Chilada earned the untapped number one non alcoholic lager in the United States. And they're constantly creating bold new flavors almost every month that push the boundaries of what non alcoholic alcoholic beer can be. Double IPAs, mouth watering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with go, by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code rich roll for 15% off your first purchase.
- [08:33]
Jen Pasteloff
Go.
- [08:38]
Rich Roll
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp and today I want to help you better by talking about workplace stress, which is something that is real and also something that's getting worse. In fact, 61% of people globally are dealing with higher than normal stress levels, which when you understand the very real connection between chronically elevated stress levels and chronic lifestyle disease is concerning. While we can't walk away from our jobs this summer, we can change our relationship with what we do. Because while a vacation is great, that is not a long term solution. A long term solution requires we take steps towards reducing the negative emotions that we associate with our occupation. And those steps include learning how to navigate daily challenges, set boundaries, develop coping skills, all of which are very difficult. I say this from personal experience to do alone, which is where therapy comes in. I'm a huge advocate for therapy, I have been for years. And this is something that really isn't just for crisis moments. It's mental maintenance, learning tools to handle whatever the workday throws at you. And BetterHelp really has done a great job of making this accessible. Over 30,000 therapists or 5 million people worldwide. 4.9 out of 5 stars from 1.7 million reviews as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp offers access to a diverse range of mental health professionals with various areas of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp, all of you can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com richroll that's BetterHelp H-E L P.com richroll okay, Jen Pasteloff is here today and what do I want to say about her? Well, Jen is unique. I will say that she is a pistol with a firecracker of a story which she tells today with a sort of trademark acerbic humor. But it's also an extremely relatable story. Maybe not the part about losing her hearing. Jen is deaf, she reads lips. But definitely the parts about marriage, separation, parenting, addiction, sobriety, the interior experience that she shares of feeling lost, of feeling undeserving of good things, and this journey that she went on that she is still on to find her voice and claim her life. All of which and more we get into today and which she eloquently elaborates on in her new takeaway laden memoir called Proof of Life. You can find Jen on substack en Pasteloff Jen with one n. And you can find her right here, right now. So let's do it. You did a really beautiful job with this book. Proof of Life Yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful read. Yeah. So I'm excited for people to discover it. It's quite, you know, incisive at times and celebratory at others. But it's really like, when I think about your story and the way you tell it in this book, it is a hero's journey in many ways, like from the dark underbelly, the insipidness of shame induced by childhood trauma and experiences, all the way to, you know, home. Like home to yourself. A home that you have custom designed bespoke to you, that you can now live in comfortably. You know, it's on some level a recovery memoir, but it's really about this journey towards figuring out who you are so that you can live more authentically and comfortably in your own skin.
- [12:40]
Jen Pasteloff
I mean, it's really not lost on me that you said the recovery memoir. What's really funny is a couple years ago, my editor, who did the same book as my first book on being human, and no one knew how much I drank, I was covert and functioning. But she was like, maybe you're right. And she gave the example of lovely Holly Whitaker, quit like a woman. And I was like, okay, are you what me? Like, the fact that I literally was probably drinking tequila as she sent it. And so the irony of, like, it ended up being that, but at the 11th hour, I added stuff in because I only been sober seven and a half months. So I'm talking like they were mad at me. They're like, jen, the book is locked. And I felt like such a fraud because in 2020, you know, the doctor told me, I went to the doctor, I had gastritis, and the doctor said, you have to stop drinking. And I, of course, thought of my father, like, was told that apparently about drugs, and he didn't. And I did stop for a little while, and I talked about that and everything, but I felt so dishonest because, again, I was still drinking. And so it's really important to me to get it in there. And I didn't get into it as much as I would have liked to, and that doesn't matter, but I wanted to name it. And I said in my TED Talk, there's such a power in naming a thing and such a grace at allowing ourselves not to be defined in that naming, you know, so it was important to me for shame, loss and for my own accountability and for. And because I was so proud of myself.
- [14:25]
Rich Roll
It's littered with so many themes of recovery from denial, accountability, of course, rigorous self honesty, you know, all of These things. Things that we have to grapple with in order to overcome this predisposition to substances and behavior. But it's what's beneath that. Like, not just abstinence, but, like, emotional sobriety. How do you arrive in a place where you're comfortable in your own skin, you're happy with your life, like, you love yourself. And this is still, you know, a struggle for me in many ways. Self acceptance, self love, like, these are difficult concepts for me. And that's really the heart of this. Like, the harsh inner asshole that you talk about that on some level. Like, I just assume everyone has it. It's always news to me when I find out there are people that don't have, like, a harsh inner.
- [15:17]
Jen Pasteloff
I think little kids. And I'm always curious. My son just turned 9, and I'm always curious. There's a point right, where it starts to happen, because I think little kids don't necessarily. I think. I don't remember.
- [15:32]
Rich Roll
I think that's probably right. But once they get introduced into the classroom or group dynamics and peers and judgment and clicks and all of that stuff, I'm sure that stuff starts to take root. Right. You are the first hearing impaired person that we've had on the podcast.
- [15:50]
Jen Pasteloff
Wow.
- [15:51]
Rich Roll
So you have that. You have that distinction.
- [15:53]
Jen Pasteloff
Wow.
- [15:53]
Rich Roll
I'm curious around your relationship with that. Losing your hearing and then kind of being forced to understand what's going on to listen without your ears.
- [16:07]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, how preservative. He think I understand what's going on?
- [16:10]
Rich Roll
I don't know. Well, I would imagine that it. No, I'm always like a hypersensitivity with your other senses.
- [16:17]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, I say I'm a witch, and, you know, I'm like half joking, but I was just on the phone with a friend of mine who made this hat, and he said something. And I go. And I said, oh, right away I knew. And I said there was a bit of a question at the end. And he goes, your hearing? I said, oh, no, it's not my hearing. First of all, I can intonation. It's speech clarification. So without my hearing aids, totally nothing deaf. Which is pretty terrifying because it's fairly recent, except my tinnitus, that's always there. But with my hearing aids. Speech clarification. So I could hear intonation. And so I picked up on something. But also, yes, we all have intuition, but. And as I've gotten older, I've really embraced it. Losing my hearing. I have learned to listen another way. So I pick up on things. I understand things that Blows people's minds. And a lot of it was initially probably survival, and then I've embraced it more. So it's like, wait a minute. But we all have intuition. I've just kind of been forced to rely on it more, if that makes sense.
- [17:31]
Rich Roll
How old were you when that began?
- [17:33]
Jen Pasteloff
It's interesting you ask. I don't know. Because again, denial. So I do know when I really started noticing it was in my early 20s when I was in acting school. But then I would look back, I'm like, whoa. That's why I always sat in the front. That's why everyone, teachers, oh, Jen doesn't pay attention. All started, you know, I know I had chronic ear infections, so I think I always had hearing loss. Not like it is now. But I must have always had tinnitus because it hit me, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago when I was little. And I would draw or concentrate or write. I would make a noise that sounds like some of you are going to be too young. But emergency broadcast system, like a droning. And people would make fun of me, like, why do you make that noise? And so I just locked it back in me and that was it. And I don't know, 15 years ago or something, it hit me. Oh, my God. I've always had tinnitus. So I was mimicking the sound in my head. And it made my heart hurt because, like, I was ashamed, you know, And I don't know why I make that noise. And I shut up. But it progressively got worse. And I was. I lived in what I call Tlod, land of denial. Where if I name it, it's gonna become real and if I ignore it, it'll go away. Cause that never works. But I like to, you know, pretend. So there's that. I didn't wanna name it. And also, I had a core belief, and no one could convince me otherwise, that I was a bad person. And so I thought, whatever, I'm broken. I'm not broken. I know that now. But, you know, so there's all these things. And I was just ashamed. And I was also terrified that if I named it, it would become more real.
- [19:29]
Rich Roll
Well, it's reasonable that you would be terrified. Like, it is terrifying, absolutely.
- [19:34]
Jen Pasteloff
But the part that is the mind fuck is. Oh. Therefore, if I don't say it out loud, it won't be real and then it won't exist. And I lived my life, most of my life until very recently, like that.
- [19:53]
Rich Roll
On all accounts.
- [19:54]
Jen Pasteloff
On all accounts. Because. And I say this without any exaggeration. I believed in every part of me that change equaled death. You know, in my marriage, I just never named it. I never said it out loud. And therefore it didn't exist. My unhappiness.
- [20:11]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it doesn't exist until it does, and then you have to reckon with it.
- [20:16]
Jen Pasteloff
And once I named it, then, wow, that was all I saw. And also, that's why I said the thing about shame and about saying I'm an addict, which even now I said it, and I was like, wait, take it back. But I hate labels. But then naming it and then going, but I don't. I'm not defined by that. You know, it's like with shame, when shame loss is about. I don't owe anyone. I don't have to tell the world all my details, but I will not hide in shame. And so, you know, when we name a thing, at least for me, a. It becomes less scary. Quite the opposite than what I thought. And it just holds less power.
- [20:58]
Rich Roll
Mm. Shame can't survive the light.
- [21:03]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah, I know Brene. Like, we're besties.
- [21:05]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [21:06]
Jen Pasteloff
Brene talks about that all the time.
- [21:08]
Rich Roll
You mentioned that you had this sense that you were inherently broken or bad. So I want to go back to the inciting incident for that, which was around the death of your father. Can you just kind of paint the picture of your life leading up to that, what happened, and kind of what ensued as a result of that experience?
- [21:31]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. South Jersey Pensaken. My dad, by far, was the funniest person. To this day, people will be like, mel Pasloff was the funniest person I ever met. He died in 83. My dad was funny, and he was my person, and it was dysfunctional because they both parentified me. I mean, my parents, I came out of the womb, like, 40. It was really weird, but I did, and they treated me that way. And my dad, you know, God bless him and also, what an asshole. But, like, I remember he had a bell. I remember this. He'd be like, watch, I'm gonna ring the bell. Your mom will come. So it was like me and my dad against my mom. But my dad was so funny. He was my person. My dad smoked four packs of cigarettes a day. Cools. So if you can imagine that, that's 80 cigarettes.
- [22:22]
Rich Roll
That's a lot.
- [22:23]
Jen Pasteloff
He apparently, like, he'd have one, and the other one was lit, and this one was still in his mouth. And so I flushed his cigarettes down the toilet, and I was giggling. I thought was funny. And, you know, it's funny as I'M telling it. I've had this thought a lot, which is, do I even remember anymore? Or have I just told it a lot, you know, and does it matter? But so he says, jennifer, have you seen my cigarettes? And I said, no, he knew I was lying. And I flushed him down the toilet. And he said, you're being bad and making me not feel good. And I said, you always break your promises. I hate you. And I walked out. And I knew. My sister and I, we went. Go in the room. Go in your bedroom. And I heard noise and ambulance. And I waited up all night. But I knew. And the next morning I came in the kitchen and my mom was a health food nut. That's what they called him back then, like wheat germ. We couldn't have donuts. And rich. I've used this image so many times. But I walked in the kitchen and of course, in my mind I'm exaggerating, but wall to wall Dunkin donut boxes. And I knew. So I have a line where I say, donuts equal death. I knew, right? I mean, that's it. And so my aunt, my godmother aunt, you know, East Jersey, Philly, we're all like that. They wanted me to sit down. I wouldn't. And they said, your dad died. And I said, I know, I don't care. And I lock my jaw, which I'm only now unclenching broken teeth. Truly. I locked my jaw. I walked out the door, I walked around the block and I kept walking. And I chanted, be strong, be strong, be strong, be strong. I chanted that to the point I didn't have to chant it. After a while, it just became. Which is why I laughed at when you said emotional sobriety. Because I thought I was dead inside. I didn't. I. The opposite of that. But I am strong. And I knew that he said I was being bad. I heard you are bad. I knew inarguably that it was my fault because I was bad, that I killed him and I deserved to be punished for that.
- [25:05]
Rich Roll
And that your last words to him.
- [25:07]
Jen Pasteloff
Were, I hate you.
- [25:08]
Rich Roll
I hate you. That's heavy.
- [25:11]
Jen Pasteloff
And so my fucking rich role. So I can only started being able to cry three years ago, which is pretty wild. Cause I'm far away from eight years ago. And it startled me. The irony is I lead all these workshops and I'm really good at what I do. Holding space, you know, as the yoga people say.
- [25:31]
Rich Roll
This is my favorite part of your story. Cause you're like off doing all these things.
- [25:36]
Jen Pasteloff
It's so classic. It's so human, right? I'm like this master of, like, people and feeling and being vulnerable and me. And I could. I wasn't faking it for them, but I could. I couldn't emote. Which feels like you're constipated. Truly. It doesn't feel good. But I really was like, something's wrong with me. I'm dead inside. So I'm out there doing all this stuff and I could not feel. So I would purposely. This is us. Would watch and that had the dad thing, but because it would make me cry and I'd be like, okay, I'm not dead in Terms of Endearment, because the scene with the little boy, because that's how mean he is and that's how I like, you know. But like, with my. I couldn't access anything with me, you know, everything was that I don't care, which isn't true. But for so long, it was my default. And it was like a physiological response, you know. And so summer of 2022, July, actually, and I remember where I was in London with my friend Laura Donnelly, and I was telling a story and I got emotional and I started to cry and she knew and we both. And then next thing you know, end of my marriage and I fell in love and. But that is a default. I would be lying if I said that when I'm feeling out of alignment and my inner asshole is raging, that immediately rages up. You're a bad person.
- [27:02]
Rich Roll
Well, it was a defense mechanism. That is such a painful event and, you know, idea to, you know, kind of believe in that you're inherently bad and your last words, you know, were unloving to your father. Like, for a small child, of course you're going to repress that and push it away and push it down and push it down. And what else gets pushed down with that? Like, pretty much everything else. Right.
- [27:26]
Jen Pasteloff
But energy never dies.
- [27:27]
Rich Roll
This is the only way. Yeah, of course it's going to come out at some point and, you know, it's probably going to be in the context of some chaos that you, you know, unconsciously, you know, reaped on your life in order for it to. You breathe air so you can finally contend with it. But obviously that doesn't happen for many, many years. Like, you have to go through life, like, holding everything at bay and pushing everything down, but it's not even conscious.
- [27:53]
Jen Pasteloff
Because it becomes so. No, of course, you're not done being formed. Right.
- [27:58]
Rich Roll
It's not your fault, you know.
- [28:00]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, Rich, really.
- [28:02]
Rich Roll
But here's the idea I want to get to. Which is.
- [28:05]
Jen Pasteloff
But you're going to make me cry. And I still have this. It's such a weird response and it's like it's not on purpose. I have this thing that happens where I start to fight it and I'm like clenching and my mind starts to go. It's like I have to go, okay, relax, relax. Because it's still. It's so foreign. And I guess when I was 8, I thought if I let myself feel, I will die from grief. And so like even now when I start to feel something, like I'm starting to get a migraine because I'm fighting it instead of just like allowing it, you know? But also I'm grateful because feeling emotionally constipated or not being able to emote is an awful feeling.
- [28:49]
Rich Roll
Is it true that it wasn't until your son was. Yeah, that's what's like that you were able to find compassion for your 8 year old self in that situation.
- [29:00]
Jen Pasteloff
And I want to say it out loud because that's what shame loss is, the refusal to hide in shame. There's a part of me that was like. So when I was like 11 and people would say, I'm so sorry about your dad, I would go, it doesn't matter, it was a long time ago. Now like, also grief has no expiration date. I never metabolized, I never dealt with my dad's death. And because I was so wise and mature and adult, like people treated me that way. So there was like an embarrassment of like, how can I be? How can my son just turned 9 in May. How can it only be now I'm dealing with this stuff. What is wrong with me? And then the good news is that only lasts a couple minutes before I go. Nothing is wrong with me. And there's no timeline and it's never too late. But I could never have known that I would see my son. And I almost had to look away sometimes. And that was me. I was just a little kid and I didn't think I was gonna have kids. And I would look at them and I would get so.
- [30:05]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [30:06]
Jen Pasteloff
And what a gift. I've never seen myself with tenderness or softness ever. Until six months ago. A year.
- [30:15]
Rich Roll
Wow. When were you a waitress at Newsroom Cafe?
- [30:19]
Jen Pasteloff
Cause that place every night in my nightmare still or my dreams. Well, I started there when I was 21 and I stopped when I was 34. I think I stopped working there maybe 2009.
- [30:33]
Rich Roll
Okay, yeah, that was in the later stages of that Place?
- [30:39]
Jen Pasteloff
No, no, no, Rich. I worked there, like, a year after it opened.
- [30:42]
Rich Roll
Oh, you did?
- [30:43]
Jen Pasteloff
I worked there five days a week for 14 years.
- [30:47]
Rich Roll
Were you there in 1998?
- [30:51]
Jen Pasteloff
Yes.
- [30:53]
Rich Roll
So that restaurant is very important in my life.
- [30:58]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, for fuck's sake.
- [31:00]
Rich Roll
Now I have the chance, because it was really the beginning of my sobriety journey. Like I.
- [31:05]
Jen Pasteloff
Your sobriety journey?
- [31:05]
Rich Roll
I was sort of forced into AA initially by the nudge of a judge, I'm sure.
- [31:11]
Jen Pasteloff
I. Wait, were you part of the Sunday night crew?
- [31:14]
Rich Roll
I was, but my mainstay was going to the Log Cabin every morning.
- [31:20]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah.
- [31:21]
Rich Roll
And of course, the Newsroom Cafe is just down the block from there, so.
- [31:26]
Jen Pasteloff
I waited on you.
- [31:27]
Rich Roll
I would eat breakfast there every morning. But hold on a second.
- [31:29]
Jen Pasteloff
Let me show you with my hair up.
- [31:32]
Rich Roll
It was so long ago, and my mind was a blur at that time, but I would eat there after the meeting regularly, multiple times a week. This is back in 1998, but this was a period in which I was begrudgingly going to AA because I'd gotten into trouble with the law, and I had to get the court card signed and all of that. And so I was constantly relapsing and going out and coming back. And there was one morning in particular that I showed up at the meeting, went to the newsroom afterwards, and was in a really dark place because I just relapsed again. And I just didn't know what to do. And I was the guy who would sit in the back and not talk to anyone outside. And a guy came up to me, a guy who will remain unnamed because I was eating breakfast alone. And he came up and he said, hey, why don't you come over with us? And he brought me into a group of people, and that guy would go on to become my sponsor and really saved my life and changed my relationship with recovery. And that was the beginning of taking it seriously and truly getting sober. And that simple encounter from that one human being, like, shifted the trajectory of my life in a very meaningful way. And it all went down at the Newsroom Cafe where you were working and were probably there that morning.
- [32:56]
Jen Pasteloff
A line. A line, yeah. First of all, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And. And I talk about that all the time because I do it and I watch people. How much we underestimate ourselves in, you know, oh, I'm not rich roll, so I don't make a difference. And it's like, just. You have no idea the kind of difference you can alter the course of someone's life. And I thought about that at the restaurant, a lot. Like it was an ecstasy to Sinai. Like sometimes I'd put my hand on someone's shoulder. You never know. Like their kids dying. What? And the way that we can have that power and just to know. And that's just by being us. But that you shared that. For many reasons. One, the synchronicity. And also because I'm new in my sober journey. But I believe that we find our people. And I just think that's so incredible, that connection. Because could have been anywhere but that restaurant that I worked at for 14 years.
- [34:03]
Rich Roll
Yeah. It was sort of the peach pit of early morning Los Angeles. Surprise city. And it no longer exists anymore. Like it's gone.
- [34:12]
Jen Pasteloff
Do you know what it's called now? Rich roll. No, the Henry Ice. Life is. You know.
- [34:20]
Rich Roll
What do you make of that, Jen?
- [34:22]
Jen Pasteloff
Passing. I make of that. Look, sense of humor is the most important thing to me. Followed by breath. Okay, fine, breath's more important. But I find life's got a sense of humor.
- [34:34]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [34:35]
Jen Pasteloff
You know, and things are really dark and awful right now especially. And so I constantly look for the funny and the little wink and I just. I don't know, I like to be like, it's just a little wink. My partner's name is Henry.
- [34:52]
Rich Roll
So for those that don't know, Henry Czerny, who plays Kittredge in the Mission Impossible movies. And as we were talking before, the podcast is truly the center of gravitas of that movie. And the voice that you hear, every one of the trailers and commercials.
- [35:09]
Jen Pasteloff
Your mission.
- [35:10]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [35:10]
Jen Pasteloff
And he's just. He's my everything. And I'm very, very grateful. And I'm so grateful that you not only knew who he was, but I love people who are willing to express their admiration or love or gratitude. I think it's such a gorgeous quality. The fact that you shared what you shared is. It really touched.
- [35:36]
Rich Roll
What if we've all been thinking about our future wrong? What if there is no finish line? What if there's only a through line? Well, that's the idea behind a special project I've been working on with Lincoln Financial, a four part series of mini documentaries in which each episode features me spending the better part of a day with a remarkable human to understand what is it really takes to evolve with intention over the long haul and how to sustain what you love across the physical, mental and financial dimensions of life. My guests include something for everyone. Andre Agassi, tennis legend, Olympian Sarah True, musician Walker Hayes. And Morgan Housel, an expert in personal finance. So if you're drawn to the kind of depth that we explore on this show. I think you're going to really connect with this program. It's called the Action Plan and you can check it out now@lincolnfinancial.com RichRoll this episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor. IQ Bar is the better for you. Plant protein based snacks made with brain boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish and satisfy hunger without the sugar crust trash. Finding portable nutrition that aligns with my plant based lifestyle has always been challenging. But when IQ Bar sent me their ultimate sampler pack, their chocolate sea salt flavor immediately stood out. Super good, just the right balance. Satisfying without being overly sweet. They're completely free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs and artificial sweeteners. Just clean, straightforward nutrition. And unlike so many bars out there, these don't send your blood sugar on a roller coaster. There are just tons of bars out there. Believe me, I've tried them all. But IQ Bar stands above with over 25,000 five star reviews and counting. Which is cool because it means more people than ever are starting their days on the right foot with IQ Bars, brain and body boosting bars. And right now, IQ Bars offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products. Plus you can get free shipping. To get your 20% off, text rich roll to 64,000. That's rich roll to 64,000 message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. You have this provocative idea that you talk about in your TED Talk, which is nothing you do is wrong.
- [38:06]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, that's not. That was my Charlie Mao said that too.
- [38:09]
Rich Roll
Oh, he did? Okay, so I want to understand this. Cause it's very confrontational to me. Rich.
- [38:15]
Jen Pasteloff
Let's be clear. My inner asshole says, jennifer, everything you do is wrong. I was late today.
- [38:21]
Rich Roll
I'm more familiar with that voice.
- [38:23]
Jen Pasteloff
No shit, we all are. That is why when I was painting, as someone who doesn't know how to paint and became a painter as one does, and I was ruminating, do not ruminate people. Especially before bed on feeling guilty because of all the times I wasn't present, you know, I was newly sober and I was just like, oh my God. Oh my God. I'm never, you know, with my son and all these things. And he walks in, I swear to God, like the kid is like a Buddha. And he hands me two flowers and he says, for the best mommy in the world. And then he looks me in the eye at the time and he grabs my shoulders and he goes Mommy, nothing you do is wrong. What? I mean, I like laughed, cried, snorted. I was like, it's those moments where if you don't believe in magic or whatever. But are you kidding me? And the way he said it and why, what? And trust me, I'm very careful, I don't say, you know. So I realized that is what I've been waiting for my whole life. And even with drinking and sobriety, I wanted someone to make me stop. And that was never gonna happen. I wanted someone to say it wasn't your fault and you just did. I wanted someone to make me stop hating myself, to tell me nothing I do is wrong. And, and if I said it to myself, which I do a lot, Nothing you do is wrong. I'd be like, oh, shut the fuck up. But I would never say that to my 8 year old son. Which is why I titled my TED Talk that, which is why it's a gift. And I said to you, to anyone. So imagine that, that. And of course I'm not, please, I'm not talking about nothing you do is wrong, barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. So don't give me any of that like, well, what about. I'm talking like anything besides that, besides intentionally hurting another. I would never look at my son and go, you dirty liar. You're full of shit.
- [40:45]
Rich Roll
You know, it's more about the tenor of the internal voice. Like, is it constantly ripping you a new one?
- [40:53]
Jen Pasteloff
Absolutely.
- [40:54]
Rich Roll
Or is it nurturing you? Because obviously denial is, is part of trying to tell yourself that what you're doing isn't wrong. You know, like you're trying to like push that out. You have to be accountable for your past actions in order to.
- [41:08]
Jen Pasteloff
That's not what I'm talking about. And again, you hit the nail on the head. It's about the tenor of the inner voice and it's about, you know, this idea. I like rituals. I start the day with something I call a body prayer only cause it's generated from my own body. Call it whatever you want, it's an invocation. And I, I try to do it before. I look at my phone, often fail before the world comes at me. And I begin it with, may I remember because it's what I know, but I've forgotten. And may I remember to have a sense of humor today about myself. Whatever. But let's say I go through the day and I don't. I realize the missing link was letting myself off the hook. And so it's really about letting yourself off the Hook now. Sometimes we have to be on the hook and then knowing we can begin again. So, for example, like, with our sobriety, things and things like that, it's like, okay, I can't change what happened. I can change the story I have around it that, like, I was a monster, I was a bad person, but I can't change what happened. But move now. What? And also what you're talking about, that justification, like, that's not what I'm talking about either. That's where you're being. Where you're immobilized in a way. And, like, you're looking for justification. My goal is to stop lying to myself. So it's not that it's to wear kid gloves with ourselves.
- [42:31]
Rich Roll
You have a long history of lying to yourself.
- [42:34]
Jen Pasteloff
Doesn't everyone? No, maybe not. I don't know.
- [42:36]
Rich Roll
I certainly do. I don't know. I don't know what goes on in other people's minds.
- [42:40]
Jen Pasteloff
Agreed.
- [42:41]
Rich Roll
I know what goes in in mine. And I can go to AA meetings. And I realize there are other people that think like me. All I know is what it's like to allow that inner asshole to run wild and free and wreak havoc on my mind and my life. What has been your path or your way to figuring out how to change that voice? Is it about muting it? Is it about acknowledging it? Is it about overcoming it?
- [43:12]
Jen Pasteloff
I love that you asked that. And I believe in daily practices. And then I went and changed it at the last minute. Cause I'm like, I can't lie daily ish practices because I am not the best at consistency. And so daily ish. But it changes what works. And so I like to think of something that I'm the headmaster of this school called the School of Whatever Works. Again, barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. And it's always just for today. And I know you're very familiar with this, you know, aa, it's just. I can only say today. So for today, what works? Well, okay, one really simple thing. I know that intentionality is really important to me. So if I pick up my phone to look at the time and then three hours later, I'm still scrolling, that's not intentional. And then I feel terrible because I'm comparing myself to these other people who are not eating Trader Joe's beans out of a can, and they're, you know, so, okay, let me sleep with my phone in the other room. So it's not the last and the first thing I do. Painting has become my medicine. That Is the one thing. It feels weird to admit, the one thing where I don't talk shit to myself. Inner asshole is just not there. And guess what? I'm taking it. I keep going. Cause I'm like, I found it's medicine and I love it. And may we all find that right. But I think it changes every day. My. I got you people. People who see me like you. When I said, oh, I feel so seen as opposed to, like a relationship. I had that for two years. That validated that I was. That I sucked. Really. You know, so it changes what works every day. And it's about discovering and being willing to discover. Well, what works in not letting this voice be the boss of me. What are you pondering right now? I'm seeing all the.
- [45:08]
Rich Roll
I'm trying to think of, you know, my version of that. Like, what works to quiet or quell that voice.
- [45:16]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh. I mean, I listen to you all the time. I'm not gonna tell you what's in your mind, but it's.
- [45:20]
Rich Roll
I don't know.
- [45:21]
Jen Pasteloff
But you're so smart. Like, I bet your brain gets in your way a lot.
- [45:25]
Rich Roll
I appreciate that. But that gets in the way, you know, that's a problem.
- [45:28]
Jen Pasteloff
Did you hear me? I said, you're so smart, your brain gets in the way a lot. And you said it at the same time. Jinx.
- [45:34]
Rich Roll
I could tell because I want to outthink it. And that's not really the best strategy.
- [45:40]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, for me, I'm less concerned me personally, with the why or the because. Like, my brain, I don't know why. I just know it does. So when I'm more concerned with, well, now what. Because I'm more interested in being embodied rather than, you know. But anyway, all that to say is, you're very smart.
- [45:59]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Thank you.
- [46:00]
Jen Pasteloff
You're welcome.
- [46:01]
Rich Roll
I love that you write about this idea of living in the land of fines. Right. Everything's fine. And that's related to the inner asshole and to the denial and the sense that you're unworthy because you're basically pursuing life from a place of fear. And as a result, your life is sort of small and you're trying to control it.
- [46:28]
Jen Pasteloff
Didn't look that way on paper, on Instagram.
- [46:31]
Rich Roll
Right. Whatever it looks like to the external world, the interior experience is, I'm suffering, but I'm too afraid to make a change. And it's easier to just stay where I'm at. Like, everything is quote, unquote, fine. And that's sort of a life of desperation.
- [46:48]
Jen Pasteloff
I didn't acknowledge I was suffering. Talk about denial. Like, you know, like, I thought I was dead inside. I also thought I had no sex drive. I thought, you know, needs, wants. It wasn't even like, I'm suffering. I just disconnect from your body long enough or your feelings long enough. You know, I wrote a poem about the history of my education, and it was like I learned that to withstand one thing, you must withstand everything. So, you know, I ignored how anything felt until it didn't. So then I didn't even register. Do you know what I'm saying? And that is even sadder to me, you know, if you stay at a surface level, because if you go deeper, at least for me, then you have to go, well, now what? That's why I never said out loud anything about my drinking. So I didn't have to do anything about it. But I didn't acknowledge I was suffering. Everyone knew. I mean, but, you know, I convinced myself again.
- [47:51]
Rich Roll
So what happened? What did it take for you to blow up your life, as you say? And this idea that, like, blowing up your life, there's a fine line between destruction and expansion.
- [48:04]
Jen Pasteloff
I love that you caught that. That was another thing I added at the last minute because it was an epiphany where, you know, some people were like, oh, my God, you know, you're gonna. You blew up your life. You destroyed it. You wrecked it. Or my inner asshole. And it dawned on me. Wait a minute. I expanded it, but it can feel like the same thing. That epiphany was so comforting. Not immediately, because that's bypassing, right? Oh, I'm expanding. It's like, whoa, feel it first, right? There's part of me that feels bad, you know, I love my ex. I do. And we have this wacky living situation that is weird. It's our weird.
- [48:48]
Rich Roll
You're still in that.
- [48:50]
Jen Pasteloff
I'm still in it.
- [48:51]
Rich Roll
So you're still living with your ex husband?
- [48:54]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. Wow. You know, it's like, I'm always like, I'm not gonna hide in shame. And then I say things and I go, wow, I really went there. But I'm working on not denying my impulses. And I don't have an impulse to drink. I do think I do. But then I sit with, what is it that I really want? If that makes sense. I think it does to you. But I want to do my best to not throw my ex under the bus, because he is lovely. And there was things I wasn't going to say and ended up saying in the book because it's what was so. And it would be a disservice if I didn't. So we were like ships in the night. Like, right now. We're like roommates. And we were always like that. And in fact. In fact, my son, even, he's thriving and he looks at us and we're better now, but in terms of, like, how we cohabitate. We cohabitate. Ish. But I knew how he thought, and. Well, not how he thought, but, like, sort of his way of being, as it were, even though he didn't necessarily say it out loud. And so we were in London two days before I had met Henry. Not romantic in any way, shape or form, like, at all. But we had the most amazing conversation. And I came home and posted about it on Instagram. And I was like, oh, my God, you guys. My ex and I, it wasn't romantic. I was with my husband, and we met this guy, and we had the most amazing conversation about beauty hunting. You know, that connection is my everything. And I said, and he lives in la. I go, you're gonna see us, and you're gonna think they've been friends forever. Totally unrelated. So my friend Holt McCallany, who's also in.
- [50:47]
Rich Roll
Oh, I love that guy.
- [50:49]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, my God. He's gonna. Oh, hi, Holt.
- [50:52]
Rich Roll
Like all time, that guy. Character actor.
- [50:56]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, he's a star right now of the Waterfront on Netflix. And he's so good. Anyway, Holt is a friend of 30 years. And so it's a funny story. Cause Holt had invited us to this party, but we weren't really invited. He was like, you know, I said, I want you to see Charlie. He goes, well, stop by. But basically it's a barbecue for the cast and crew of Mission Impossible that I'm filming here in London. And basically it was like, so you leave before it starts. Cause it. You know, he didn't. It wasn't for us. And it's not a kid thing. Well, I had started painting, and I was painting, and lo and behold, we were running late. And my ex was like, let's not go. Cause we're not really invited, and it's late. I was like, you know what? Let's go. It'll be an hour in the Uber. Yeah, but let's go. I just had a feeling. And I said, if it's awkward, we'll leave. Well, we get there an hour later, and Charlie runs in and runs off. And I was like, well, shit. And then the first person I see, I don't get starstruck. You know, I will if, like, I don't know, Michelle Obama or, you know, Anne Lamont. But the first person I see is Angela Bassett. And I go, we're staying. I love her. I love you, Angela. And it ended up being the most amazing night. And there was a magician there. Yes, Holt had a magician. Okay, so there's all these weird factors. And Henry and I had this amazing conversation, and I posted about it. End of story. End of story. Two days later, unrelated to that, still in London, we went to see a play. My husband, my son, my mother in law. And that afternoon was a day I cried at the restaurant, which was also very bizarre for the first time. And after the play, I said to my ex that it makes me sad that Charlie, you know, never sees us, like, laughing or connected or kissing. And I forget all the things I said. He was, like, on the couch in our Airbnb. I was in the kitchen and I was sick, but I was pouring a glass of wine because of course I was. And I said that it just makes me sad. And he looked at me and he goes, that's life. And that was the crucible. I slammed down the glass of wine and there was this moment, and I knew. I knew, I knew. Wow. This is like. I swear Eminem came in. It was like, you know, you got one shot. I was like, wait a minute. Because the way I thought of it was like, you know, I can be in denial and pretend that I don't. First of all, I don't believe that in the core of me, that's life. But I was living as if. Now I can pretend I don't know that he was, but once he named it out loud, I'm going to look away. I. And so for me, that was a crucible and a higher power. My dead father, I don't know. But I had no idea what was going to come out of my mouth because I had never said it. I said, I'm not happy. I think we should get a separation. And that was it for me. And then we came back and, you know, and it took many months because it wasn't. He didn't think I was, you know, but once I named it, that's all I saw. Like, it was. And it sounds so stupid, like, but this has been here the whole time. Why am I just seeing it now? But I think it's just what we do. But once I named it, and honestly, it felt like I had no control over what came out of my mouth. I know that I did, but it came from. I feel I had no choice. Like, it.
- [54:45]
Rich Roll
A sense of survival or a vote for yourself or just an inner belief that there has to be something more. Like I don't have to.
- [54:52]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, I'd like to say suffer silently.
- [54:54]
Rich Roll
Or in this, like, low grade, you know, kind of sense of life being less than you knew innately it could be.
- [55:02]
Jen Pasteloff
I want to be careful. I'm very careful because I love my ex. And I want to be careful not to say more because that suggests less than. It's different, not more. Not more different. And that's okay, you know, like we find our people, you know, and like it's true, you know, we do so well now. And I think we just bless we had this beautiful child, but we just like, you know, what I wanted and I would never. I didn't even acknowledge was like intimacy scared me more than anything. But that's what I really. And that scared me, of course, because if I let that in, they would drop that or leave. Right? But also it was a line, right? It was like, wait a minute. This thing I say every day to myself and I do, may I have the courage to be who I say I am. That's what it was. It was a moment where I go where I went, you are so full of shit if you're gonna be who you say you are, because I don't buy into that's life. And had I gone, you're right. Then who am I being? But also survival rich. Because my friend Krista Paravani texted me once and she said a couple years ago, how did you get the courage to change everything in your life? And I have a habit of like picking up other people's drinks. And so I literally was like, I picked up up someone else's phone. That is not for me because I don't change. That would make me die. But then I was like, wait a minute. But I didn't answer her. And I went with Henry to a storage unit where he was storing his stuff in the interim of buying a house. And because he's a total nerd and he builds things, he insisted on building a shelving unit. And it was January at 4 o', clock, the sun goes down at 5. There was no electricity in the unit, so he had to build it before the sun went down. And I was sitting there watching him and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I went, I know how I did it. I had to before I ran out of light.
- [57:20]
Rich Roll
This episode is sponsored by shocks. So some of you guys know that I'm recovering from spinal surgery right now. And the main kind of the only thing that I can do right now is walk. So I've been doing these walks in nature every day, which isn't something I want to necessarily tune out. I want to be present in it, attuned to it, more connected with it. So when these walks do involve some audio accompaniment, I want earbuds that don't interfere with that, that don't block out my environment, but instead enhance my reflection relationship with it. Which is why I upgraded my earbuds to Shokz. The OpenRun Pro 2 takes my walks next level by allowing me to hear everything around me, like birds and wind and of course, my footsteps, while also still being able to enjoy incredible audio quality. The IP55 rating means I never think twice about weather or sweat. Not that I'm sweating that much right now, but you get the picture. The OpenFit 2 has become my go to for everything else. Work calls, audiobooks, podcasts, while I'm reclining on a zero gravity chair, doctor's orders, moving around the house, you know, music during quiet moments, and the open dots one that's the sweet spot. Refined enough for meetings, but durable enough for any activity and light enough to wear all day long. It's not about choosing between awareness and immersion anymore. With Shokz, you get both. Head to shokz.com and use code rich roll for $10 off your purchase. I talk a lot about simplifying, stripping away what doesn't serve you to better focus on what does. And you know what doesn't serve anybody? Big monthly expenses that are unnecessary. Expenses like our phone bill, which we just pay on autopilot without weighing other options, blind to the fact that we don't have to be held hostage by big fat phone when right in front of our faces there is Mint Mobile tantalizing us with three months of unlimited service for just 15 bucks a month. Not 50, not 80. $15. I talk a lot about how to make a positive change. How nuanced it can be, how hard it can be. But this change is just about as easy as they come. With Mint, you get the same nationwide 5G coverage you're used to at a fraction of the price. And yeah, you get to keep your phone and you get to keep your phone number. Everything just transfers right over. This is the definition of low hanging fruit for anyone trying to be more intentional with their spending, which I am more committed to than ever, I gotta tell you. Especially after spending an entire day with the financial wizard Morgan Housel which I did for my recent miniseries series. The action plan so put some action into your spending plan this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com richroll that's mintmobile.com richroll upfront payment of 45 required equivalent to 15amonth. Limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 GB on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. But when I hear that story, to me it sounds like this was the first time that you were willing to rip the band aid off 100% and look at something that you had refused to look at for a long time. And once you do that, then suddenly everything else kind of the dam's gonna burst, right? And you're gonna have to look at all kinds of stuff.
- [61:06]
Jen Pasteloff
You could not be more accurate. I mean, I didn't recognize myself. That's why it felt like that's why I relied on my I got you people so much. Because, I mean, it's very much like becoming newly sober. Because suddenly everything looked different. Nothing was. You know, the way I talked about it, it was like everything was tilted. It's like, no, I had been tilting. Exactly. I ripped the band aid off and all the things I was, like, pretending not to see or I really didn't because of so many years of the way I'd been programmed myself. I mean, and it was terrifying. It felt like I had no solid ground beneath me. I was so afraid. My favorite words are, it's gonna be okay. So I just would. I would just ask my friends to text me that to remind me that.
- [61:54]
Rich Roll
But it's a different kind of fear. There's a certain kind of fear that kept you in that place. The new kind of fear is what's gonna happen now that I have to look at it and change. And I think when the first fear becomes more than the second, that's when you actually start to take it well.
- [62:13]
Jen Pasteloff
Because that, the first fear is this. It's being the boss of me. It's calling the shots, it's keeping me immobilized, lying to myself. All the things the second fear is, is I'm afraid. And I'm doing it anyway. I'm acknowledging it. And not only that, I'm asking for help.
- [62:29]
Rich Roll
So what did you do? Like, on a practical level, I literally.
- [62:33]
Jen Pasteloff
Would ask for help. I'd ask even if it meant just sit and spend time with me. You know, a lot of it was surrounding myself with people who made me Feel held and safe. Safe is like my big, big thing. Making art practical because I wasn't in my head, because my art is all about freedom, because I don't know what I'm doing. And the gift in that, you know, getting really present with my son, you know, I don't think. I know. I didn't experience joy until he was born. I have no pictures of myself as a child smiling. So there were things I would do that would, all right, it's there, but I'm not going to let it be the boss of me. Except on the days that I did.
- [63:28]
Rich Roll
So there's these competing things that are happening. Suddenly you're feeling empowered to move your life in a different direction. Like, you know, the situation you're in isn't.
- [63:43]
Jen Pasteloff
I did not feel empowered by the way I do now.
- [63:45]
Rich Roll
So I want to understand this because there's this awareness. Okay, I think I need something different. I think I want something different. It's scary, but what's scarier is staying here. Yes, but at the same time, you have the inner asshole that is affirming this looping message that you're undeserving of love and good things and.
- [64:05]
Jen Pasteloff
No, I'm a monster.
- [64:06]
Rich Roll
How dare you.
- [64:06]
Jen Pasteloff
I'm a monster.
- [64:07]
Rich Roll
Who do you think you are? And. And not for nothing, that ship has sailed. It's too late. So how are you reckoning with that at that time?
- [64:16]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. So I have to tell you, I did not feel empowered. My old. I am a bad person. I'm a monster. I ruin everything. I kill everything that came back with a vengeance. And so I was so, so terrified. That is why I relied so much on my people. And whatever I found that worked, my people painting, you know, I was so, so afraid because that voice was so loud, you know, that I thought was like, tamed that literally a monster. And my friend Mimi Feldman and I realized they cut it from the book. But she said something to me at my Italy retreat. She said. I was like, remind me I'm not a monster. I mean, I was. Thank God my friends weren't annoyed, or if they were, they didn't tell me because I was so afraid and I really needed a hand to hold until where I am now. I said, am I a monster? And she looked, she said, you know, Jen, I'm gonna butcher what she said verbatim. But she said, in this situation regarding my ex and I, someone's gonna be the monster. So if you're gonna be a monster, be the best monster you can be. And I swear it Was like, okay, and. And what I had to do was find any way I could to remind myself that I was not a bad person, that I did not destroy everything, that I didn't ruin everything. And first of all, like the level of narcissism. But it's like an eight year old right? Of like I ruined everything. And it's. But it's that eight year old me, but finding reminders and. And what's so beautiful now. And I clung to Henry so much in the beginning. Like, I'll die without you. And now I love him, but I don't need him. And I didn't feel that way in the beginning. I just. I needed to feel safe. And I'm okay with saying that. I'm so proud. I can admit that. It was like my bad mantra. I mean, it came back with a vengeance and I was riddled with shame. I slipped back into anorexia. I mean, it was dark. So before the like. Yeah, where I am now and I'm not even there now was a dark night of the soul.
- [66:44]
Rich Roll
But the starting place to liberate yourself from this notion that you're broken and this desire for intimacy. But fear of it, because that's associated with.
- [66:56]
Jen Pasteloff
I didn't know I desired it.
- [66:57]
Rich Roll
All of these things. Like, the only way to unravel this knot is to go back to the beginning and, you know, heal the wound where it was created. Like, how. How can you process that?
- [67:08]
Jen Pasteloff
Fuck. Isn't there a shortcut?
- [67:09]
Rich Roll
And like, isn't there a shortcut? And really feel that grief and change the story around what happened when your father passed. Right. That's where the liberation is going to happen.
- [67:23]
Jen Pasteloff
I agree. And also. Yes, and it's hard when you have 40 something years of. It's like in my marrow. That's why I call it default self. So it's sort of like the alcohol stuff or anorexia. It's like I'm not healed. Always healing. So yes, go back and heal it. But it's like it easily pops its head up if I'm out of alignment or I'm not vigilant with being who I say I am, you know? But yes, it does go back to that. And that is why this past year has been so wild. Because how can it be only now that I'm dealing with that thing that happened? You know, it makes me feel so.
- [68:17]
Rich Roll
I get it.
- [68:18]
Jen Pasteloff
Silly.
- [68:18]
Rich Roll
Listen, I'm 58. Like I'm trying to make sense of my childhood. Only now, you know, it's like. And then you're like, what is wrong with me? I'm, like, hung up on something that happened 50 years ago.
- [68:32]
Jen Pasteloff
And that's like, first of all, nothing is wrong with us. And also, it's such bullshit, too, because there's no timeline, and we're never too late. All these things that, whether they were taught to us or we've just adopted them, are not true.
- [68:53]
Rich Roll
Yeah. You call it the imaginary time gods, which I love.
- [68:57]
Jen Pasteloff
The itg.
- [68:58]
Rich Roll
Yeah, we're both late bloomers, but talk a little bit more about according to who you are. The violence that we levy on ourselves because we always think that we're not measuring up or we're falling behind or it's too late.
- [69:10]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, so according to who, Rich? Like, you're a late bloomer. That actually fascinates me right now. I'm. I'm like, what in the. What are you talking about?
- [69:20]
Rich Roll
What do you mean?
- [69:21]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, a late bloomer. Okay, according to who?
- [69:25]
Rich Roll
Well, I guess. Yeah, according to my inner monologue, I suppose.
- [69:29]
Jen Pasteloff
But it's.
- [69:29]
Rich Roll
Again, but on paper, you know, according to the imaginary timeline.
- [69:32]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, because so you're 58, so, like, you should have been here by 50.
- [69:36]
Rich Roll
No, I mean, I think I didn't really figure out my thing until much later than I presume other people do. It's all story.
- [69:45]
Jen Pasteloff
It all goes back to that.
- [69:47]
Rich Roll
Everything is a story. And I think we lead our lives, we pursue our lives in accordance with some story that we've fabricated and then buy into or was taught to us or whatever. Whether it's positive or negative. It's all nonsense. Right. It's a unconscious thing on some level that we craft based upon this memory and that memory, and yet we know it.
- [70:09]
Jen Pasteloff
But embodying a thing and knowing a thing are different.
- [70:12]
Rich Roll
And then when you put the lie to it and realize, like, oh, I have the agency to tell a new story, it's difficult to do. But I think just the recognition that we're all living out narratives in our own mind, and we assume that we're all on the same page with everybody else unaware that everyone else has their own narrative.
- [70:32]
Jen Pasteloff
See, I don't. I assume that they project it. I'm always like, I'm not on the same page. I am an island.
- [70:38]
Rich Roll
Either way. Either way, the point is, like, it's all a story. And I would. I guess just speaking for myself, like, part of my story is like, oh, I'm a late bloomer, or whatever. It's like, I don't even. I don't even attempt to deconstruct that I just accept it as fact. Right.
- [70:51]
Jen Pasteloff
But it's funny to hear you say.
- [70:53]
Rich Roll
That to me, and you've said this, like, oh, you know, how old were you when you wrote your first book? Or you're like, 41 and 44.
- [71:02]
Jen Pasteloff
44.
- [71:02]
Rich Roll
Right.
- [71:03]
Jen Pasteloff
I was 41 when I had turned.
- [71:04]
Rich Roll
Okay, you're coming into this a little on the later side. Like, me, too. I didn't start my podcast until I was 45. There's something that is like, inflicting violence on ourselves through that, but also I think for other people, there is something inspiring about that because it gives them permission. Like, oh, you don't have to have it all figured out. I didn't figure. I'm still, like, a mess, and I have many things I still have to figure out.
- [71:29]
Jen Pasteloff
What do you mean, figuring it all out?
- [71:31]
Rich Roll
At least to have some level of inner knowing that I am pursuing something personally meaningful and that I am doing my best to live an authentic life, which I could see for a long time.
- [71:42]
Jen Pasteloff
And there it is.
- [71:43]
Rich Roll
And this is where our. Our stories are very much aligned. Like, it is a very similar narrative in that regard. And I think when you say, like, yeah, I was this old when I wrote this book or what, you know, I'm like, here I am at this age now, and here's the big mess I'm going to tell you all about. And here's how I contended with it as best I could, inelegantly, at times.
- [72:07]
Jen Pasteloff
Are you saying I'm inelegant?
- [72:08]
Rich Roll
No, in ways that, like, I'm proud of and not proud of, et cetera, etcetera. But I think that that is empowering to people because we're all, to some degree, held captive by the imaginary time gods. And we.
- [72:20]
Jen Pasteloff
I think you need to say that again for the people who are deaf.
- [72:24]
Rich Roll
We exact all kinds of judgment on ourselves because we feel like we're not enough or we're behind and so. And so has already done this and that. And this in and of itself is nothing but a story.
- [72:39]
Jen Pasteloff
Yes. And I also find it fascinating how we view ourselves versus, you know, others. Right. So the reason it's like, to me, you're so successful and you're this, that, and it's all story. I don't. I mean, but what my point is, like, to hear you say that is like, what? So the knowing a thing is one thing. It's our brain and the embodying. And, like, if you think I didn't know that I had a drinking problem, you're wrong. But embodying the now what? Right. So, yeah, you know it. But it's fascinating. I think the sense of humor comes into play here. And I'm so big on it because I respond with levity. So if something's like, too precious or it takes itself too seriously, I just check out. But, like, you gotta laugh when I say, well, you said I'm a late bloomer. Like, according to who? And you couldn't answer. And the reason we can't answer is because. Exactly, exactly. There's this imaginary. And whether it's just the way it is or what have you, but it's bullshit. And yet we perpetuate it. So the more I talk about it and remind people, in my way is, you know, with humor and being honest, like, I won't lie about my age or anything. It hopefully will. I can't give anyone permission, even though it might feel that way. That's the subtitle. You gotta be your own permission slip. But it feels that way. Like, well, maybe. Maybe I'm not. You know, there's no such thing as, like a universal timeline or you're supposed to. It's like, should. They're all assholes. So it's the idea of, like, you're right. That inner knowing. And also we get to change our minds. And for me, that was huge. And I have to remind myself that all the time you get to change your mind. And so who's to say? What does that even mean? And it's so much about they. Them, according to who. And really, at the end of the day, it's according to me. And if we. That inner. Whatever you want to call it, inner compass, inner gps, you talk about the.
- [74:54]
Rich Roll
These unconscious commitments that we make. Like, that would be one of them. Like, I am committed to this idea that I'm a late bloomer. We're not even, like, really aware that we're. That we've made these commitments and we're doubling down on these ideas. And you have to be able to step back and see yourself at a distance in order to even, like, identify these patterns that are just on autopilot that we all have that. That we didn't ever consciously construct.
- [75:24]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. And got a shout out to my chosen fam gang, Katie Hendricks. They taught me about that. And it's funny cause they live in Ojai too. And Gay said, it's one of my most controversial things. And I was like, that's so interesting.
- [75:39]
Rich Roll
Which is what?
- [75:40]
Jen Pasteloff
Unconscious commitments. And I asked, why is it. Because then people have to reckon with the fact that they actually have agency rather than sort of like, for example, I have an unconscious commitment. I've recognized that of living chaos, you know? And so a lot of times it's really hard for people, that is me to recognize what they are. And gay will say, one way is you can look at the thing you complain about a lot and like, the sort of the how often it's happening. Right? And like, for me, oh, I'm so unorganized. Or, you know, this morning was a good example. And then he said, you can go, hmm, they're very big on that sound. And I forget exactly why. But that sound, it's a curious. I love it because it's actually about curiosity. Where would I have gotten that? You know? And I'm less concerned with the reason and the cause and the now. But then, you know, again, it's about naming it and then consciously committing to something else. But also, for me, it's about compassion. I understand why. I was raised by a single mom, Chaos, you know, So I understand why. But to be able to name it and own it and then shift it into, well, what do I want to be consciously committed to? And I think it can be really painful to admit it. Like, I have an unconscious commitment to the belief that I'm the, like, unlovable. That's not me right now, but I know a lot of. Especially women, or to being broke. And so when we really take a look at, wow, what am I committing to? Unconsciously, it's wild and it's so empowering because then we. And it's a daily practice, consciously shift. And I'm making it sound like it's just so easy, but it's about intentionality.
- [77:36]
Rich Roll
I think a way that I approach that is to identify the need that it's fulfilling. Yeah, exactly, because you're doing it for a reason, and it's doing something for.
- [77:46]
Jen Pasteloff
You, like the payoff. What are you getting?
- [77:48]
Rich Roll
You're getting something out of it. You're complaining about it, but in truth, you actually want it. Like, you're bringing this into your experience for a reason. And that reason is to do something for you. Right. And behind that, that part of it is generally about allaying some fear. You have some fear, and this behavior or this pattern is keeping that fear at bay and giving you a sense of control or whatever it may be, but it is.
- [78:15]
Jen Pasteloff
Or validating a belief you have about yourself. You're not worthy or you suck.
- [78:19]
Rich Roll
You have to deconstruct that and say, okay, well, is that need necessary? If it is, then is There another way to fulfill that or give me that sense of security in a real and meaningful way and not in this way that is destructive and negative.
- [78:35]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. I mean, and it's. It's like, I know we're making it sound easy, you know, like all things that are simple, not easy. But it can be. I think it can feel shameful, like, to admit, like, who wants to say, I have an. I'm unconsciously committed to always being broke? It's like, ew. But. But the power in that. And, you know, gay really, really drove that home. And I just thought the fact that he said it's controversial. And I realized because, yeah, then people. Then we have to go, well, now what?
- [79:11]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Cause who wants to look at this stuff, honestly?
- [79:14]
Jen Pasteloff
But when he said that, it brought back why I put that story in the book about the conversation of that's life. Because who wants to look at that? Because it's controversial. Because otherwise people go, well, that's life. That's just the way it is. And no, actually now some things, yes, like my nephew has a genetic disorder. That is what is so. But am I always gonna have to hustle? No. That's not just life. Right. So it does. It did really, really struck a nerve with me. I thought, wow, yeah. What do I want to consciously commit to rather than being like, that's just the way it is.
- [80:00]
Rich Roll
So what is the big unconscious commitment that you're trying to untangle right now?
- [80:07]
Jen Pasteloff
This tattoo. Conscious Inc. You know, I get to have this and the this. It's not like I get to have this rich and you don't. It's like I get to be happy. You know, I didn't think I did. And so, you know, your this is whatever your inner asshole tells you you don't get to have. But I keep trying to unpack it because, you know, success, whatever. I define success very differently than the standard. To me, it's like I told the truth today. I was aligned, but that no matter what, I'll always have to hustle that. You know, that's what I watched. My mom and a single mom and chaos and hand to mouth. And I don't get to have ease that I'll never get there. And there is ever changing and who knows? And I hear it. I hear how you know, I won't get to sit at the table as I'm sitting at ritual's table. And it all is because I'm a bad person and I can like, cognitively get why. And yet that sneaky mofo is sometimes still there. And I'm up against it right now right before the book comes out because I think we find. I know we find what we're looking for. And so when I'm out of alignment and I'm feeling like fear is the boss of me and all that, all of a sudden if I'm like no one likes me and you know, I will find evidence of that. And so in this time before the book, no thank you and no returned emails or whatever it may be, it's like, see? See? Looking for all this evidence. And so I have to be very consciously committed to staying aligned to who I know I am rather than looking for evidence of all them letting me know I suck. Because anyway, it's a story but.
- [82:17]
Rich Roll
And what else is part of that practice? You talked about the painting, keeping your phone away from you, things like that. But like how do you tend to yourself to, you know, what is the self care practice beyond like the painting and the phone stuff?
- [82:34]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah, so the painting for me is self care and I love that that I've started selling them too because that's amazing. But that's a really great question. I'm really, I don't know if this is considered self care, but I'm really discerning with my energy and my time and so if I don't wanna go. No. So that's self care, meaning I don't divvy myself out out of obligation.
- [83:04]
Rich Roll
People, please.
- [83:06]
Jen Pasteloff
No, I mean I'm sure I still have some qualities of that, but no, I mean I got other shit add like raging, but that one, not so much. What I will say is exercise and yet I was an exercise bulimic and not a like regular bulimic because when I was in high school and I couldn't. But I haven't exercised in two years and it really helps me with my depression and with everything and I haven't been able to get started again. And so I feel sort of confronted when you ask me the self care thing. But I will say the not drinking, like last night I wondered. I was so I wasn't at risk of drinking but I felt so angry that I couldn't and that why can't I just be like someone who just can and have won and that I didn't. That I found something else and then I started painting and laughter, finding ways to laugh. So self care for me is the biggest one right now is the fact that I'm not abusing myself anymore with.
- [84:26]
Rich Roll
The alcohol and does the fact that the book is about to come out, like, it brings all this stuff up, right?
- [84:34]
Jen Pasteloff
Are you kidding?
- [84:35]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [84:35]
Jen Pasteloff
I am, like, ready for this. Why did I tell people? Because if I didn't say it out loud, I could have drank and then gone back to not drinking. All the lies. I mean, that could have been the next book.
- [84:47]
Rich Roll
You could have, like, made that later.
- [84:49]
Jen Pasteloff
Jennifer, why did you have to say it out loud? You know, and my son's away, Henry is away, my dad's death anniversary is coming up. The book's about to come out, I am in it and there is no alcohol in my system. And so it's an experience that I've never had before. I mean, as an adult, when I.
- [85:10]
Rich Roll
Think about your story, it just reaffirms this idea that these wounds that we all have, if we can summon the courage to face them and heal them, or at least attempt to heal them, that it creates not only the foundation for a new life, a more authentic life, a life that is freer and more honest, that's free, but also when you extend that courage to share it by dint of your books, that this is the stuff of human connection. Right? And fundamentally, the wound is. Is really all about, like, connection. You know, the wound is the start of our inability to connect. And by healing it and sharing it, we resolve it and we find ourselves more connected to other people than we could have imagined. And yeah, that fear of like, oh, my God, I told this story and people are going to read it, or why did I do this? Or why did I do that? But, like, that shared humanity is. Is what makes us realize, like, that we're all. That we're all in this together, that we're one and we can see ourselves in other people.
- [86:24]
Jen Pasteloff
It's always fascinating to me the way I call it fall in loveable. You know, like, you can't define it, but it's like right now you're so fallen loveable because you're just being utterly yourself. Sometimes it's like the snots flying and they're laughing. But it's the things that we often hide. And that is the thing that is so attractive and beautiful.
- [86:50]
Rich Roll
We hide them because we think that's the thing that's gonna make people not wanna be around us again.
- [86:55]
Jen Pasteloff
It goes back to them. It's all about them. And in the book, I italicize it because I'm like, who are they but them? And then like, how about self promotion? Like, I wanna barf in my mouth if I keep pre. Orders are so important. And people are like, wow, you're so good at it. Well, guess what? The reason most people can't do it is because it's about what others will think. I mean, I've never met anyone who. I mean, maybe one person, but they're like, yeah, because people think, oh, oh, they think they're so important or how dare they like themselves or be proud. All of it is them. All of it is about what they think and human connection. I mean, I'm good at, like, two things. And what I'm good at, I'm really good at. And. And most things I'm not. But connection is my superpower. And I don't care why the reason is, I just know it is. And I do know that it's been exacerbated by my deafness. But to me, that community is where I find God connection, and that's everything. And so it is important to share because. And the fact that people find it so revolutionary and courageous makes me want to do it more because it's like, wow, just like. Cause you're not supposed to do that. Or what will they think? Or all the things, you know. And I think a world of more people unapologetically being who they are and shining their light, as it were. How magnificent and magical would that be?
- [88:34]
Rich Roll
It's weird that it's a revolutionary act to say, I'm gonna give myself permission to do this or I get to have love and I don't need anybody el to tell me whether I'm worthy or not. Like, all of these are ideas that it's a common struggle for lots and lots of people. And you've been able to navigate them. You're sharing your story. You've changed your life in certain ways.
- [89:01]
Jen Pasteloff
But I don't have it figured out.
- [89:02]
Rich Roll
No. So this is what I'm saying. It's all messy. Change is hard. It's nuanced, it's not linear, it's up and down. It's just this pastiche. And every day you got to start over again, everyone. And appreciating that and not saying, here are the steps and here's how you can do it, but within that, you're somebody who has gone from a person who thought change would kill you. That's the last thing I'm ever going to do to being able to navigate change. And I think everybody, on some level, wants to make a change in their life. They know they could be a little bit better or they aspire to something. And because we're human, we struggle and we fall down and we misstep. So what can you say to the person who is in that struggle, who is suffering, who's trying but having a hard time with this? Like, what is it that distinguishes the person who can say, I'm going to stand up for myself and I'm going to walk through the flames and confront my fear and, you know, know, try to do something on my own behalf versus the person who remains prisoner to their fear or struggles and continues to go back to what feels safe.
- [90:16]
Jen Pasteloff
It's funny, though, that you said, I think everyone wants to change. I would have fought you before, and then I'd be like, no, I don't. Never.
- [90:23]
Rich Roll
But deep down, we all want something, right? And maybe we see a better version of ourselves. Whether. Whether we do anything about that is a different matter. But I think on some level, or maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.
- [90:36]
Jen Pasteloff
There's a part in the book where I was talking about my ex and my marriage and I said, hold up. If you're about to go off on going, why did she. She's just some memoirist. When did a navel gaze and she was in a fine marriage. And of course it's worse than I think. No one's thinking about me at all.
- [90:55]
Rich Roll
But I said, I like how that's worse.
- [90:59]
Jen Pasteloff
I mean, it's true. I think we can all get ourselves in check more often. Like, I'm always like, get over yourself, John. Or like Eleanor Roosevelt. You wouldn't worry so much about what people thought of you when you realize how seldom they actually do. But I said, before you start, like, trying to figure out why, because there's no outward bruises, because it looked fine. I wanted to. My want is enough. And when I said that, it felt like I got goosebumps and I oh, your want is enough. And again, I'm not talking about dangerous things that hurt other people intentionally or yourself, but I mean, like, you know, you want to write, but you're afraid you want to leave. You want, whatever. Your want is enough. And if we remember that or it really goes back, I get to have this. So it's unpacking. What is it that your inner asshole, or whatever you call it, you know, find what resonates for you is telling you you don't get to have that. Rich. Who do you think you are? You think you get to have reciprocity or ease or love? It's not true. And it's like my tattoo says, I got you. And you might be like, well, you're full of shit. You don't really know me in Person, it doesn't matter because a. Your people are out there if you stay open. But you are held. And I don't mean that in any kind of way, like airy fairy, even religious way, but you are. And I thought change would kill me. No. Did it hurt? Yes. It's. If you are willing to stop lying to yourself, that is the ultimate game changer, the ultimate one. Because once you do and you get honest and then you ask now what? Even if it's the tiniest thing, even if it's like, well, I'm gonna. The first now what is just imagining it and then. But it's the denying our wants, denying what is so. And I'm queen of that. Oh, if I don't say that, I can't hear out loud. It doesn't exist. You know, so willing to be honest with yourself and then. But it's. I think being self aware is overrated. Because if there isn't and you know, there's from recovery. Because if there's not a now what? Yeah, big deal. I knew why I did what I did.
- [93:25]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Self awareness will avail us nothing as it is said in the room.
- [93:29]
Jen Pasteloff
Man, I thought I made it up.
- [93:30]
Rich Roll
There's the want, the want to be better, to do something different, and then there's the doing of it. And there's a. There's a big gap in between want and do. Right.
- [93:42]
Jen Pasteloff
How do we bridge the gap?
- [93:43]
Rich Roll
Okay, and so what is in the middle? And you said it in my mind, this is how I think about this. Tell me if you agree. In the middle is this thing called willingness. And willingness is a freak.
- [93:56]
Jen Pasteloff
A freak, like freaking the sheets, basically.
- [93:59]
Rich Roll
Because willingness.
- [94:02]
Jen Pasteloff
Why did I just say freak?
- [94:03]
Rich Roll
Willingness is this weird force of nature that you can't really summon. It's almost like a visitation. Like, are you willing? Are you willing? Like, are you will? Like, what are you willing to do?
- [94:19]
Jen Pasteloff
I mean, my brain. Get out.
- [94:21]
Rich Roll
Willingness is different from want or desire. It's like, what are you actually going to do? And you can be willing to be willing, but on some level, and I've said this before, like that's sort of like saying. That's sort of like asking somebody to want something they don't actually want. Because if you're not willing, you're not going to do it. Well, but we have these moments of willingness. Like when your husband said, that's life, suddenly the seas parted and you had this visitation of willingness that you never.
- [94:55]
Jen Pasteloff
Said it is moments of moments of.
- [94:57]
Rich Roll
So I think willingness visits us in those moments. And then we're faced with having to make a decision to grab onto it and channel it into action. But if we don't and we let the moment pass, the willingness kind of dissipates and goes back into the atmosphere.
- [95:18]
Jen Pasteloff
So I bought my house because I read a book called the Big Leap that Changed My Life by Gay Hendricks. And of course, because the universe, you know, they're my neighbors and they're like my best friends now. Cause that's the universe. But Katie Hendricks will say to me, are you willing to expand your capacity for. And whatever it may be? And she's not trying to teach me, but just by who she is, modeling who she is. It rubs off on me. But I love that question. So let's say expansiveness or financial. Whatever it may be. And I love that because it forces me to reckon with. Huh? Am I willing? And I gotta look at that. So. So again, with the intentionality. Yes. Willingness can come, like a divine moment. And again, the moment thing is important to me because I get trapped with for the rest of my life. I will instead of today. But what if we wake up and consciously commit to that now? We might fail at it, but we get to begin again with a new breath. But what if you get like, okay, am I willing to expand my capacity for financial abundance? Let's just go with that. And, you know, whatever it is to reckon with, and then shift it into a conscious commitment, which starts with a now what? But also it starts with what we're saying to ourselves. Does that make sense or no?
- [96:54]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I think so. I think I would translate that into saying that, yes, there are these, you know, parting of the seas moments, you know, lightning flashes, and, you know, you.
- [97:07]
Jen Pasteloff
Feels like, divine.
- [97:08]
Rich Roll
Suddenly you have superhuman powers all of a sudden. Right. But on the daily. We're never totally without willingness. It's just that willingness is at a lower hump. And so the question becomes in the moment, in the day, like, what am I actually willing to do right now?
- [97:27]
Jen Pasteloff
I love it.
- [97:28]
Rich Roll
So when your husband says, that's his life, you weren't willing to put your foot down and say, I'm leaving right now.
- [97:37]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, I said, how about a separation? Sure, but I didn't.
- [97:41]
Rich Roll
You put words to it. But what did your feet actually do Right? But you could say, well, I'm gonna journal my thoughts about this while they're fried. Which I very much saying. On a basic level, there's always something you are willing to do. And I think when you indulge that willingness and actually translate it into action, then you're basically opening the portal for more willingness to take the next step. So it's about action.
- [98:09]
Jen Pasteloff
Yes. But also it goes back to being honest with yourself, because. So I'm allowed tattooed on me. And I have people make a grocery list, and I say grocery list because it's not good. It's not bad is what it is. I want you to write down what you're allowing in your life. And some of the things are gonna make you feel like a rock star, and some are gonna be like. Like, for example, I allow myself to say no if I don't wanna. I allow myself to sleep late. I allow myself to look at my phone and compare myself to other people and feel like shit, really. Right. See what I'm saying? And so then I say circle the ones that are intentional. The willing is the same thing. It's about being honest with yourself. So going, am I willing? And really, really being honest with yourself. And then if you go, no, but I'm walking around, like, acting like I am or pretending. That's the reckoning. So it's being honest with yourself. And if you're not willing, that's okay too. Stop saying you are. Maybe. But being honest with yourself, but making a conscious commitment, because I do think. And if you're not willing, unpack it. What are you willing? And notice I didn't put anything after that because I love just the word are you willing?
- [99:32]
Rich Roll
You said, if we want to transform anything, it's essential to go beyond the face of things or how they seem to appear, especially with regard to ourselves. Which is basically a way of saying we have to be rigorously self honest.
- [99:47]
Jen Pasteloff
Yes. And that doesn't mean that, especially if you have a lot of followers on Instagram, that you have to tell everyone everything. Like, you know, when I bought my house, I swear people would be like, can you point me to the post where you talked about when you bought your house? You know, I'm not kidding. Same with my marriage. And so sometimes there's a. I got a letter in the mail, someone found my address and sent me a letter before I publicly announced I was leaving because it was no one's business yet. And it was written like a ransom letter. It was, like, made fun of me. My quote, it said, may I have the courage to be who I say I am. And it's like, whoa, I don't owe anyone to explain myself. I won't hide in shame, and I will do my damnedest not to lie to myself anymore. And that's it.
- [100:38]
Rich Roll
That's pretty Good.
- [100:40]
Jen Pasteloff
I fail at that sometimes.
- [100:41]
Rich Roll
But what is the main idea that you want people to take away from your story and this book?
- [100:50]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. You know, I'm so bad at decisions, unless it's deciding beforehand. Like, it's not gonna work or it's gonna be hard. But so are these questions, like, oh, my God, there's so many. But proof of Life really is. After I sold the book, about a year later, I looked around with a panic attack, and I was like, I haven't written it. I haven't even started it. I've done nothing. I have no money. I haven't even filed for divorce. What have I done? And I was, like, hyperventilating.
- [101:20]
Rich Roll
A year after you sold the book?
- [101:22]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. Can I have that gift I gave you?
- [101:24]
Rich Roll
What, the blue.
- [101:25]
Jen Pasteloff
The thing?
- [101:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [101:26]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. My friend Emily McDowell made the. This is my quote, but she made this. It says, when I get to the end of my life, my son likes to chant it. When I ask one final what have I done? Let my answer be, I have done love. You know, at the newsroom, I had a breakdown 100 years ago because I thought I was going to be a scholar, a poet in academia, and I'm there with my apron, with a veggie burger in my hand, and I was like, what have I done? Like, 10 years in. And later, it dawned on me, you've done love. So a year after I sold the book, I looked around and I'm like, what have I done? And I caught myself. That is the key I caught myself with. Because I was like, I have nothing to show for it. I have nothing to show for myself. I was saying that in my head, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. I don't have to show shit. I am my own proof of life. I've done love. Look at all the paintings I made. I did the scariest thing, and it didn't kill me. I fell in love. I nurtured relationships. I ended one. Screw that idea that we. Look how worthy I am. Look, see, this proves it. And I think a lot of people, you know, and I do my best not to, we live in a way where we feel that we have to prove somehow, like there is something and there is nothing. Not a damn thing that you can hold in your hand that, you know, I said in my TED Talk, everything that's weird and wonderful and magical about you is invisible. You know, I mean, not everything. Your beard's pretty great, but it's like, you can't. Oh, look, I'm worthy. See, my Podcast is number one. No. And so I have to remember that. And therefore, I'm not like someone who's figured it out. I'm just sharing my shit. I have to remember that all the time. I am my own proof of life. Simply by virtue of me being born, I'm worthy. I get to have this meaning. I do get to be happy. My birth rate is not stress. My birth rate is not shame. My birth rate is not hustle. So it's that it's. You are your own proof of life.
- [103:40]
Rich Roll
That's really beautiful and powerful. It's also exactly what I need to hear.
- [103:45]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, how funny. Amazing.
- [103:47]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I mean, I'm very conscious of.
- [103:52]
Jen Pasteloff
Is it? Cause I said your podcast is number one.
- [103:54]
Rich Roll
No, no, no, no, no. Far from that. It's actually the opposite. It' that I look around and I'm very proud of, like, this thing that I've created in this life that I've built. But I'm also very aware that so much of the motivation came from this deep need to be loved and seen. And the idea, oh, you're so vulnerable. That's unbelievable. The idea. The idea that, like, that I'm not entitled to it, that I have to earn it. And the only way to earn it is to, like, distinguish myself and do something that people will pay attention to. So it's a.
- [104:31]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, Henry. Henry has that little boy in the.
- [104:34]
Rich Roll
Corner who's like, you know, please love me, please love me and pay attention to me. You know, that's the wounding at the core of it. And I would have to imagine is beneath a lot of people who are ambitious and go out into the world and do big things. And it's challenging because my life is great and I'm very happy and I'm so proud of this thing.
- [104:56]
Jen Pasteloff
And I love what I do.
- [104:58]
Rich Roll
But also, I'm aware of the motivational, like, antecedents of the whole thing. And the idea that I don't have to do this in order to.
- [105:08]
Jen Pasteloff
Has it shifted, the motivation?
- [105:10]
Rich Roll
It is in the shifting phase.
- [105:12]
Jen Pasteloff
Thank you for your honesty.
- [105:13]
Rich Roll
Have I overcome it?
- [105:14]
Jen Pasteloff
No, No, I don't think we. I mean, the idea of overcoming is like, I work with women who've lost children. I scholarship them to my retreat, and you don't ever get over. It's like, you know, but it really moved me when you said that because, yeah, I mean, that's like. I used to say I wanted to be an actress, and I literally waited at the host stand of the newsroom to be discovered. And people laugh, and it's like, oh, you think I'm kidding? Also, I wasn't discovered, but I was waiting for someone to love me. But then I got even deeper and I was like, no, I was waiting for someone to tell me, it's not your fault and you're not bad and you can stop hating yourself, but at the end of the day. And like, I have to have compassion because, yes, I do have that hole in me. And so there is a part of me that's like, do you love me now? Do you love me now? And, like, see, I'm never gonna get it no matter what. That's fallen lovable, though, the fact that you shared that, like, that's what makes me fall in love with a person. I don't mean that sexually. Just like, ugh, I'm gonna put you in my pocket. But you're so tall. And I share it because may I remember. And I have to remember every day, and especially right now, right before the blood and every possible thing is coming up that's like, no, of course you don't get to have that, Jen. You don't get to have that.
- [106:38]
Rich Roll
And can you navigate the book release and all the stuff that comes with that from a place of joy and gratitude rather than, like, you know, refreshing your Amazon page?
- [106:51]
Jen Pasteloff
Yes, Sam. Yes, Sam.
- [106:53]
Rich Roll
Yeah. What does this mean? And how are people perceiving me and all of the unhealthy aspects of it?
- [107:00]
Jen Pasteloff
Yes. And is that fair? I mean. Yes. And my friend Shauna Mann, who took her life, she wrote a beautiful book novel called oh, you pretty things. And in the book, the best friends would call each other boof. So we would call each other Boof. And her book came out before my last book, and she would say, boof, Boof. I've been here before. Enjoy every part of this, every moment, every, you know, even the this part, you know. And lately she's just with me so much. I hear her. I hear her. And she used to also say, boof, your brand is truth. And she would also say, I'm polarizing like cilantro. She was so funny. But yes, and so absolutely, I'm in joy, I'm proud. And I have a thing called give yourself a medal. And like, even being after I did the audiobook, I was like, besides the typos I found on brand, I was like, I'm really proud. And I realize how uncommon that is for people. Like, you're not supposed to say that. And so owning that and joy. But the. And. And I won't lie about the And.
- [108:19]
Rich Roll
Part you shouldn't lie. You should.
- [108:22]
Jen Pasteloff
Is an asshole. I know.
- [108:23]
Rich Roll
I know.
- [108:24]
Jen Pasteloff
That's.
- [108:24]
Rich Roll
I used the word should. You know, that was. That was on my list of things to ask you. Like this idea of should being an asshole. I should myself a lot.
- [108:33]
Jen Pasteloff
If you could see what I see. There's an exercise I do to this. This is. I'm glad I remember this to ground myself. So I remember I think of someone. So right now think of someone who loves you, living or dead. Like, really loves you. And, you know, you can close your eyes or if you're like me and you don't and really, really visualize them. And I hate the word should, but if you're doing it, it should feel good, safe, right? And then you walk out of the house carrying that. But I like things that are tangible. So then write a letter in their voice. So it requires imagination. Dear Rich. And it starts like this. If you could see what I see. And then you write it in their voice.
- [109:24]
Rich Roll
So it's a letter to yourself in.
- [109:26]
Jen Pasteloff
The voice of someone who lives on.
- [109:27]
Rich Roll
Yourself, but in the voice putting yourself in the shoes of someone who.
- [109:32]
Jen Pasteloff
You jumped ahead, who cares for you. Okay, Rich, just write the sentence.
- [109:37]
Rich Roll
No, go ahead.
- [109:37]
Jen Pasteloff
Come on. Dear Rich. Do it. I'm all bossy. Do it. Dear Rich. And then you write, if you could see what I see. So imagination is so underrated. So you're visualizing one of your children, your dead, whoever, like, you know, if you could see what I see. And then everything they would say. And you imagine it in their voice. And. And often people cry as they're writing it. And then I say, when you finish, I need you to write this. P.S. p.S. I wrote this with my own hand, so it's what I already know, comma, but may have forgotten. And then I'm like, carry it around like a talisman. I have people read it out loud in my workshops if they want to. Nine times out of 10, people cry. Sometimes it's because the person's dead and they miss, but most of the time they cry because there's a chasm between this on the paper, how this person who loves them see them, and how they're walking about the world talking to themselves, you know, and they start to cry, and it's wild to see. And so it's like, how do we bridge the gap? And so, you know, that's just another tool, you know, for me, it's like, whatever works. I carry my dad's, you know, know this, like, I call it his Jewy necklace. It's like his thing he wore, and it's like little tile. Whatever works. But that letter is a reminder. Of course you wrote it. But if you give yourself permission, if you're willing, you write it in their voice. It is so moving. And then you go, it is what? You know, they didn't crawl in your body and write it. And that's wild. So if you could see what I see. And may we all have people that reflect that back to us rather than, like, reflect back to us that we suck.
- [111:32]
Rich Roll
The emotions around that are also. Because there's a recognition of its truth.
- [111:39]
Jen Pasteloff
Absolutely. And what. What? And forget the why. But wow. I am not living in accordance with that truth or walking around with the that as if it is so. You know, like, if you could see what I see. And they write all these things, and I'm like, whoa, isn't that a mind fuck? You actually wrote that with your own hand. And they're like, huh? It's great, though. But if you could see what I see.
- [112:08]
Rich Roll
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
- [112:10]
Jen Pasteloff
In your what?
- [112:11]
Rich Roll
In your pipe and smoke it.
- [112:12]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. I swear, if I'm going to write a book called the Things, Things I Mishear. I mishear everything. And, you know, it's like the thing about the hearing loss, you asked in the very beginning was like, I. Some days are a pity party. I try to have a sense of humor. Sometimes I fail. But if I didn't, I wouldn't get out of bed. But group settings, forget it. But I feel so stupid all the time.
- [112:38]
Rich Roll
Really?
- [112:39]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. Logically, shame is not logical. Logically, I know I'm not. But you try sitting around and not understanding anything anyone's saying. When I went to Jeff Krasner's thing, when I sat next to your beautiful wife, the room would laugh and I would laugh, and I wasn't faking it, but I had no idea why I'm laughing. And then that starts a shame cycle. And, like, I mean, it's awful. It's awful. So then I avoid and I. You know, and sometimes I take one for the team and I'll go to a group dinner, and if it seems like I'm checking out, it's because I am. Or looking at my phone because it's. First of all, it's exhausting, but it's like being in a foreign country, you know, and. World's smallest violin, you know, everyone has something, but it's. It's very lonely. And because I'm between two worlds, I'm not, capital D, deaf. I don't exist in deaf culture. I don't know. Asl I rely on hearing aids and lip reading. It's like I'm like in the mezzanine. But I think that's why I rely a lot on sense of humor. Not to bypass, but because Jesus Christ, I wouldn't get out of bed if they're watching.
- [113:58]
Rich Roll
But that's good self awareness because if you're good at humor, it becomes.
- [114:03]
Jen Pasteloff
Am I?
- [114:04]
Rich Roll
I think you're funny. Yeah, you're like, you baited me right into. If you're good at humor, then it becomes an easy self defense mechanism to like, keep people at bay and not have to look at your shit. Because you can always, you have this weapon, this tool where you can deflect everything.
- [114:23]
Jen Pasteloff
You're right. And also I say, now I lead with the thing that causes me shame. So I'm not like suggesting if someone's been sexually assaulted, they walk in a room. But I would never tell people. And sometimes it gets exhausting and I forget to say, hey, I'm deaf. I lip read. But now I lead with that so that I don't spend an hour pretending, feeling stupid, all the things. And it's so empowering and it's freeing and it's just, it's incredible. And that's shame loss too. So I walk in and right off the bat and I go, by the way, I'm gonna mishear a lot, but it's funnier what I hear, so.
- [115:01]
Rich Roll
Which is exactly what you said when you walked in.
- [115:04]
Jen Pasteloff
I did. And I mean literally, I don't know, like, like I probably like heard 30% of what you said and the rest I just, like, nodded. No, but this is easy. We're in a contained setting. I'm still working very hard. I'm focused, I'm working. But oh my God, if it's like that night at Jeff's, I heard like one thing he said, but a friend of mine who is brilliant playwright named Jez Butterworth, I went and saw his play Jerusalem with Holt McElhenney and I felt asham because Holt has the loudest laugh. I love you, Holt. And I would laugh along and I didn't hear any. Like, I couldn't make out the dialogue. And at the end of the play, I was weeping and I was like, what the fuck? And Jez, who's like our greatest living playwright, said something that fascinated me because I wouldn't have thought, but he said, it's not about the words anyway, it's about the rhythms. That was such a gift because he was right. That's why I was crying. That's why I went to Jeff's, knowing that I was. I wouldn't be able to make out. But it's about the rhythms or however you want to translate. But I felt it. I still want to make out dialogue quite often. But when he said that, it's about the rhythms.
- [116:21]
Rich Roll
But I wonder if you're not tuning into people on an even deeper level, because the fact that you can't hear them, you're focused on their.
- [116:32]
Jen Pasteloff
I hear. I can't make it out.
- [116:34]
Rich Roll
Okay, so there's noises happening. Noise on some level. But you're paying attention to body language, expressions, and you're noticing things that when we're just paying attention to what people are saying, we're not really focusing on.
- [116:50]
Jen Pasteloff
Absolutely.
- [116:51]
Rich Roll
And there's probably more information that you're gathering 100% than the normal human who's just listening normal and not really, like, paying attention to the visual stuff.
- [117:01]
Jen Pasteloff
You're 100%. And like I said in the beginning, I've tapped more into that and more into that and. Yeah, and even stuff that's not even body language. Even stuff that's like, I don't know. I'm going back to my yoga training. Subtle body, just energy, what have you. In my workshops that don't. I don't necessarily do so much yoga anymore, but a lot of times people are on yoga mats because I want to get them more in their body less. Here there's a group and I have to get really close. So I say, I'm going to come over and sit in your lap. You know, I don't do that, but I get very close. It can be intimidating and scary, but ultimately it's like people have never felt so heard. But let me tell you, if I was a typical hearing person, ain't no way I'd be doing that. Because a space invader, I mean, you know, but because of that gift. Now it's not like immediately like, I'm deaf. It's a gift. But I'm able now to be like, holy. Wow, that's amazing. You know, I would have never, like, I crawl over on my butt and I get really close. Cause I have to. But the gift in that is that intimacy, that connection, what people. The way people feel heard in a way. Like, because this weirdo's in their face, because she has to be. So I think, you know, there are some gifts in it. And it's also frustrating as hell a lot.
- [118:28]
Rich Roll
Well, ultimately, all we really want is to be Seen. Right.
- [118:32]
Jen Pasteloff
That's what I said in the beginning when I sat down. I was like.
- [118:36]
Rich Roll
For you to be, like, hyper present with someone and really connecting with them, if not verbally, is a nourishing feeling that makes us feel connected.
- [118:48]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah. And some people, it terrifies them until it doesn't.
- [118:53]
Rich Roll
Right. It's scary. Don't come too close.
- [118:55]
Jen Pasteloff
Well, I mean, come on.
- [118:57]
Rich Roll
You might see the version of them that they're trying to hide. Right? That's the scary thing, Rich.
- [119:02]
Jen Pasteloff
I never used to look people in the eye. Like, you would not recognize me. And I don't just mean, like, with sex, because. Forget it. I never, ever opened my eyes. I mean, yeah, I said what I said. I didn't until, like, Henry. So, I mean, people like, I would, like, you know. And one time, a million years ago, I did something called the Landmark Forum, which I'm sure you know what it is.
- [119:29]
Rich Roll
Yeah, of course.
- [119:30]
Jen Pasteloff
Then I did the advanced course. And then we were on stage and we had to line up, and I was next to this sweet guy. I can't think of his name. And he was across from me. And we just had to do this eye contact thing, which I do in my workshops a lot. And there was, like, hundreds of us. And I'm on stage, he's across from me, and it's like, this is something I don't do. And I started hyperventilating and crying like. Like, somebody told me my mom had just died and I had to run off the stage. And I was so embarrassed. And I mean. But crying, like. I mean, like, you really think someone was murdered or. And, I mean, I. And it really, really got clear to me that I never let anyone look at me because I was afraid they would see that I was a bad person. I'm so proud now that I can be with it. I can be with someone seeing me and allow it.
- [120:27]
Rich Roll
Let's end with imagining the person who's struggling right now, who feels stuck, who's terrified of making eye contact with someone else, who knows that perhaps there's a different life available, but is paralyzed to make a change. And the prospect of writing a letter to themselves in the voice of someone who cares for them. That's too big a leap. Where does this person start? Assuming they have some iota of willingness to do something, where should that person place their attention? And what would be your counsel on where to go from there?
- [121:09]
Jen Pasteloff
It's going to sound like such a cliche, but the first thing I thought when you said, where to go from there is like, there's nowhere to go. That's. That's. That's it. I was. I spent my life going, leaving my body any way I could. And, like, for the first time, stay. Which is the hardest thing for me. I didn't even remember this. And I saw. I wrote it down. And there's a part in the book where I said, charlie asked mommy, do the trees stay awake at night? And I'm so glad I wrote it. And a friend heard and answered, why, no, Charlie. They sleep. Of course. It's very tiring, holding up the sky. And so toward the end of the book, I said, you can rest. You don't have to hold up the sky anymore. You get to allow. And I'm purposely not putting anything after that word because it's so powerful, you know, and to really sit with, without shame what you are allowing in your life. And if you look at it and you want to cringe, don't use it as an opportunity to beat yourself up. And that's old hat. Instead of, like, wow, you get to allow for joy, for intimacy, for whatever it is. And if you're like, well, I don't know, how wonderful. Go discover, you get to do that. And, you know, I think. I know a lot of us feel like we're cooked by a certain age, which is why when I started painting and I have no idea what I'm doing, people are like, well, how do you know what paint to use? I don't. I do whatever I want. But people, I could never do that. They're not willing to explore, to play. And so it's about discovering and allowing for that, you know, Allowing for. You get to have a life that lights you up. And if you don't know what lights you up, go find what lights you the fuck up. And instead of being overwhelmed by it, which is what I do, get excited by it, like, okay, cool. And you're not too old or too late. That's bullshit. Find what excites you and what doesn't. You get to have a life that lights you up. And I'm not talking about privilege, because I am privileged. We are. You know, I'm talking about just by virtue, again, of you being born. You do. And whatever story is like, you have to earn it, rich. You gotta earn it. You gotta earn your rest. You gotta earn it. Uh, you get to have a life that lights you. You up. And if you don't know what it is, go find it.
- [123:56]
Rich Roll
Thank you. That was really beautiful.
- [124:01]
Jen Pasteloff
You're very beautiful.
- [124:02]
Rich Roll
I appreciate the openness that you that you brought to this experience today, it's very meaningful to me.
- [124:08]
Jen Pasteloff
I'll have a vulnerability hangover on the way to Manchu.
- [124:11]
Rich Roll
But you know, it's going to be dinner soon.
- [124:16]
Jen Pasteloff
No, I got to make it to the airport.
- [124:17]
Rich Roll
Proof of. You're gonna wanna read this book. Pick it up wherever you buy your fine books. We did it. How do you feel?
- [124:26]
Jen Pasteloff
I feel.
- [124:27]
Rich Roll
Did we do it right?
- [124:29]
Jen Pasteloff
We did it more than right.
- [124:31]
Rich Roll
Okay.
- [124:32]
Jen Pasteloff
And we did it.
- [124:32]
Rich Roll
I wanna make sure you're happy.
- [124:34]
Jen Pasteloff
I'm so happy. And what I wanted to say was, though, I did a nutty thing, which is I'm giving away a spot to my Italy retreat, which is four grand. Can I afford it? No. But I know I'll be taken care of. And if people buy 10 copies. If you wanna buy 10 copies from an indie bookstore. And I love it because it supports independent booksellers, which are a dying breed. And it excites me because I'm doing that and people are buying from indie bookstores. I'm gonna pick the winner. July 8th. But a few people have bought it to donate it were they to win. And I'll gift the retreat spot to a woman who's lost a child.
- [125:13]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [125:14]
Jen Pasteloff
So I know for a lot of people, $300, like, if you're trying to keep the lights on, not for you. But there's such a vast landscape with finances and there's people with $300. It's like, yeah, not a thing. So it's win, win to me, because you're supporting an indie bookstore, you're supporting me, and I believe you're supporting yourself because you get to see the I got you effect works and hopefully believe you get to have that too. So, so amazing.
- [125:44]
Rich Roll
So I assume you're going to go on tour with the book. Is there a way for people to find out where you're going to be doing events and stuff? Where do I direct the audience?
- [125:54]
Jen Pasteloff
Yeah, they can. I mean, they can throw a rock and find me, but Instagram. Jen Pasteloff. My substack is the same title of my book because I'm either really smart with SEO or very lazy with naming proof of life or jenniferpasteloff.com Tom. Yeah, so I'm excited. I'm doing something with Anne Lamont, which is a very, like, pinch me moment.
- [126:14]
Rich Roll
She's the best.
- [126:16]
Jen Pasteloff
And you know, Maggie Smith and Henry's coming on tour with me, you know, like next week in Pasadena. He's in conversation with me.
- [126:26]
Rich Roll
Nice. And you've got Anne Lamott, an Anne Lamott blurb on the COVID I sure did.
- [126:32]
Jen Pasteloff
Rich roll.
- [126:33]
Rich Roll
That's insane.
- [126:33]
Jen Pasteloff
And, and please note that she mentioned huge, which for a self help book, to me there's nothing worse than like, this is so precious and it takes itself so seriously. So that was like, oh, thank you. You know, it gives a wink to the reader. Like, yeah, right. It's not gonna be too douchey, you know.
- [126:56]
Rich Roll
A not too douchey self help book.
- [126:59]
Jen Pasteloff
I mean, there's moments I'm sure someone will be like, nah, douchey, but not too douchey.
- [127:03]
Rich Roll
Not too douche. I'm not saying it's entirely without douche. Yeah, but you know, a light dusting of douchiness.
- [127:11]
Jen Pasteloff
No, but really, like, what a gift. I do think anyone who takes themself too seriously, I just, I'm not interested. It's so boring. And so it's. I just, I do. I feel like it's a little like a. What do you call that? Like when you give someone a signal. It's a signal. Like when you write humor on a self help book. You're in good hands, I think. But I'm biased, but I think, I.
- [127:35]
Rich Roll
Think you're on the right track. Awesome. Thanks for doing this.
- [127:39]
Jen Pasteloff
Thank you.
- [127:40]
Rich Roll
Say hi to my wife for me.
- [127:42]
Jen Pasteloff
Oh, yeah, I will.
- [127:43]
Rich Roll
Let me know how I can be of service. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, My books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our new newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake, Content management by Shana Savoy. Copywriting by Ben Prior. And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Powell Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace plants.
- [129:27]
Jen Pasteloff
Namaste.