← The Rich Roll Podcast
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
We all want to eat better. Everybody wants that.
- [00:03]
You've got goals, everybody's got goals.
- [00:06]
And usually the gap between where you are and where you want to be boils down to one thing, consistency. But here's the thing. Consistency really isn't about willpower. It's about removing the friction. So when the healthy choice is also the easy choice, you actually reach for it. And that's really the whole idea behind the plant powered meal planner. When you sign up, the first thing we have you do is answer a whole bunch of questions about your food preferences and your habits, what you like, what you don't, allergies, how much time you've got, your skill level in the kitchen. And then the program matches you with a balanced plant based plan custom tailored to your whole household. Thousands of recipes developed by nutritionists and RDs, including some favorites straight from our own kitchen. One click build your grocery list and ties it into delivery. So the planning and the shopping basically handle themselves. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com Take your quick personalization quiz and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.
- [01:15]
Ed O'Brien
This underlying depression had been going on for years. It just seems so bleak. And it seems, how do I get out of there? Depressions, breakdowns, illnesses. The body is saying there's something not right here.
- [01:28]
Rich Roll
Ed o' Brien of Radiohead, one of
- [01:30]
Ed O'Brien
the architect of modern Rock and Rock and Roll hall of Fame inductee, has
- [01:35]
Rich Roll
a solo record called Blue Morpho. The idea that the guy from Radiohead is gonna complain about not being happy, you know, nobody wants to hear that.
- [01:44]
Ed O'Brien
No. And it was exactly that. It felt very indulgent. I'm not like that. I'm a rock, I'm ba ba. But my body was just saying enough. I felt like I was carrying a weight every day that was weighing me down. It was very, very, very physical. I cared so much before what people thought of me. And the healing process is a process. Love and going, I'm okay, I'm okay. I'm no longer hiding. You have to. Why was I hiding? Well, I was hiding because.
- [02:17]
Rich Roll
It's like perfect timing that I'm sitting with you today to have this conversation.
- [02:21]
Ed O'Brien
There are no coincidences, right? Just synchronicities.
- [02:26]
Rich Roll
In your case, like, I'm curious of the ways in which the album Blue Morpho mimics, like, the process of creating that work of art mirrors the journey that you went on with your Mental health and your depression and this process of trying to make sense and come to some place of healing and wholeness,
- [02:50]
Ed O'Brien
I mean, it completely mirrors that. And it's a transformation. Creativity is it. I guess it's a transformation of sorts. And there's a start, a middle and an end. And the middle is where it gets really challenging. I feel like I haven't got enough experience of this transformation. But my experience of transformation is it feels impossible without the deeply challenging aspect that is at the heart of it. Because, you know, if you take the human body, if you take mental health, you know, my, my, my, my belief is that the, the. There's an innate or not my belief, but I, I resonate with those who say or that this idea that there's an innate human. The body has an innate human intelligence. It wants to heal, you know, and that's what depressions and that's what breakdowns and that's what illnesses can be or early onsets. The body is saying, there's something not right here. And are you going to listen to this? And, you know, the coping mechanisms and the things from childhood that we all that become part of our character and, you know, we think they're us. There gets to a point, your body goes. Your body knows it's no longer serving you. Your mind goes, oh, I'm just. This is me. I'm just carrying on. And, and essentially, I think that's what a breakdown is. Your body's saying, enough.
- [04:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah, the universe is always knocking.
- [04:30]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah.
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Rich Roll
Trying to get our attention.
- [04:31]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah.
- [04:32]
Rich Roll
But we're so captured by our minds and by the stories that we're recycling in our brain thinking that they're hours not realizing that they were embedded before we had the ability to exercise agency over them. And we're kind of all operating on some kind of loop, like playing out a narrative that we didn't consciously choose. And when the universe is knocking, trying to get your attention, we always have the opportunity to pay attention and make change. But for some reason, it seems like the human animal needs to be in sufficient pain or suffering before they'll heed that knock and start making those changes. Like we can all make a different choice. But for some reason, we need to be in that place of suffering as, you know, kind of like the crucible for our growth and for our learning. And I don't know why that is. But if we don't pay attention, those knocks get louder and the chaos, you know, starts to increase and the pain increases until we are willing to listen and course correct.
- [05:43]
Ed O'Brien
I mean, I think fundamentally, you know, there's. There's. Human beings don't like being out their comfort zone. They get into a rhythm and that becomes. That's how they make sense of everything. And. Yeah, the only way to break that and. And then that. You're right. I always say this or my personal experience is the universe gives you. Has. You have everything around you in order to evolve. And it's whether you listen or whether you're awake to it. And. You know. And you're right. Exactly. If I look back on my situation, this. This underlying depression had been going on for years. And I. I sort of tried to address it with, you know, I went to see a healer in Brazil to sort of kick it all off. But I also made things. Everything from dietary changes, which were actually profound. You know, eliminating alcohol for a while. No drugs, food, the kind of food I was eating, because, you know, there's the. There's the link between the guts and the. And the brain. Oh, I thought, I'm. I'm dealing with this. I'm dealing with this. It's this. But you get. You get to a certain point, that toolbox that you have in order to. To help. It's like that, for me, was. That darkest moment was like everything I was doing wasn't. Wasn't.
- [07:05]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [07:05]
Ed O'Brien
Wasn't making a jot of difference.
- [07:07]
Rich Roll
When you're. When you're in it, you don't want to hear that this is your opportunity for growth and transformation.
- [07:12]
Ed O'Brien
No, it's because it's hell.
- [07:14]
Rich Roll
It's paralyzing.
- [07:14]
Ed O'Brien
It's hell. That's right. And I think that thing of framing it within. Bit like an artist or a musician or something, when they frame the work they do within the arc of their life. It's the same thing with these. These moments of supreme challenge and darkness. If you can frame it as. This is the. This is my hero's journey. And I think that's why I definitely embraced this notion of the dark night of the soul, which I think comes from St. John of the Cross and this idea and, you know, Dante's Inferno. Midway through life, I lost myself in the woods. When I was able to, I was okay. When I'm like, I'm not a freak. This is what people for thousands of years have been going through. And this is part of the journey. This is the part of the journey of existence. And I think it's super important to have that, to be able to frame almost like you frame your life as a film sometimes in. In the sense of trying to make sense of it, you know, because on the, you know, the coal face of it, it just seems so bleak. And it seems, how do I get out of there? And I think for me, that that was the hardest bit. It was like, how long is this going to go on for? Because after nine months, I didn't feel like I'd made any shifts. But, for instance, I guess if I'd had a. If I'd lived in a community, for instance, if we were in a proper community where you had your elders and your elders had been through that, they could go there. It's all right. You just sit with it. But I had a feeling that's what I had to do. But for me, it was the moment I was able to frame it in a bigger journey, the bigger picture, it suddenly became more palatable. It was. It was easier to deal with.
- [09:10]
Rich Roll
How long had you been in the depths before you were able to make that perspective shift?
- [09:15]
Ed O'Brien
I think about six, seven months. That's a long time. Yeah. They're gradual things. It was particularly bad in the winter, and then the spring and summer comes, but you're still carrying away. You're still like, why? Why do I feel heavy? Why is this exhausting? What's. You know, why that. Why. But then a bit of sunshine gives you a bit more. You know, you might go and swim in a river and you feel better. And so it. Yeah, it was. It did feel a lot like a long time. And I. That, for me, was. I was fortunate because my wife, Susie, she's a kinesiologist, and she'd been through a similar sort of. Hers was longer through her teachings and through her. Her work. It's like, she's like, you've got this. You just got to sit in the fire. Trust in the. Trust in the universe.
- [10:05]
Rich Roll
This wasn't your first bout with depression, but maybe the most acute or prolonged, like, it's coinciding with lockdown. Right. You tried the dietary. You've made lifestyle changes and helpful, but not gonna solve the whole problem. You have this perspective shift where you realize, maybe I can exert some agency if I just look at this as a hero's journey, and I'm just in it right now. What were the decisions that you made about how you were going to exercise that agency? Like, what did you decide to explore in terms of modalities, to claw your way out of this hole?
- [10:47]
Ed O'Brien
I kept it pretty simple. I. I mean, I'd had bits of therapy over the years, but I found that it was completely conditional on my relationship with the therapist and how much I resonated with him. And I hadn't found anybody that I resonated with, so I didn't have a therapist. One thing that really helped, I'd had for years Five Elements acupuncture, which is the old form of acupuncture. It was pre Maoist China. So it's all about the destiny of an individual and also their relationship between heaven and earth. It's very.
- [11:26]
Rich Roll
Oh, wow.
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Ed O'Brien
It's the old acupuncture. The Communists didn't like it, of course, when it came in, because they're all about. There's no, you know, the individuality is subsumed.
- [11:36]
Rich Roll
This is not serving the state.
- [11:38]
Ed O'Brien
This is not serving the state. So all the five Elements practitioners got driven out to Taiwan. So a lot of the old knowledge, all the old Taoist knowledge gets. Goes out to Taiwan. And there was a British man called J.R. worsley who went over, I think, in the 50s or 60s, and he brought the old Form 50. He bought Five Elements acupuncture to the UK and actually, interestingly, to America. And it's different from TCM. Traditional Chinese medicine is fabulous. You know, you put it. But it's all about. You put a. You put a needle in there, affects your kidneys. You know, it's very. It's very utilitarian. This is philosophical, it's spiritual. So that was tremendously helpful because I would go and see him every four weeks and you talk for half an hour because he's established. So how are you? So there's the. There's a therapeutic. But what was great, it was. It went more than therapy because. Okay, I'm going to hit some points here, and they were very beautiful names like Heaven's Gate or. And I found it profoundly powerful. So that helped shift stuff. But I just think being still, I think I've had such a busy life and a lot of that was, as I say, running from the ghosts of my past. There was a reason I was busy.
- [13:06]
Rich Roll
We had talked previously and you. You had mentioned that you came across Gabor Mate's work and amazing. This epiphany that perhaps there's something in your childhood that needs a little bit of excavation in order for you to make peace with yourself.
- [13:25]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. I mean, again, I was reading this book in, at the start of this, having fallen into this hole. And this book was exactly what I needed. The universe provided me. Susie said, I think you should read this book when the body says no. And I was reading it and, you know, it's essentially he Noticed in private practice that a lot of people with autoimmune diseases and cancers and addictions. Where's the source of this? It's all in childhood. And he said, it's all in childhood. And he does that beautiful thing that somebody who's very learned and, you know, they're speaking a truth. It seems really simple. And I was reading this, and he was giving examples of case studies and talking about the trauma of the child. And I was reading of someone going. I was like, well, that's like my childhood. And I'd never allowed myself to go. My child. I'd never allowed myself to use that word. Trauma. Right. It feels like such a heavy word. Trauma was something that was, you know, if, like Gabor Mate, for instance, his. His parents and his grandparents were in concentration camps, that felt to me like trauma. That's a level of hurt and trauma that. So I wasn't allowing myself. I'd go, well, you know, it was. Yeah, it was a bit shit, but, you know, in that classic way. But what I realized I'd done was, I think in order to cope with it, and I've obviously, like, you know, Gen X in Britain. No one, none of us. None of us processed anything. We had all this stuff. You should be like this. And. And all this kind of some pretty nasty stuff could happen, but we weren't listened to. And that's just. That's just how it was. And so it makes for very good humor. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons the British have a kind of quite dry and sarcastic humor. Well, it's that line in. Is it Crimes and Misdemeanors? Is it the. The. The. That humor is tragedy plus time.
- [15:49]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [15:49]
Ed O'Brien
If it bends, it's. If it spends, it's funny. If it breaks, it's not funny.
- [15:53]
Rich Roll
So tragedy plus time. Tragedy. Comedy, Exactly. Yeah.
- [15:57]
Ed O'Brien
So I think that's why the. You know, you look at Monty Python and, you know, that. That there'll be a lot of trauma there. Those childhoods and just the British way, very zipped up and very, you know, Americans can see it. You can see what we're like as
- [16:10]
Rich Roll
a nation, but it feels indulgent to think that if your childhood isn't completely insane, that you would characterize it as being traumatic. You know what I mean?
- [16:22]
Ed O'Brien
It felt terrible.
- [16:23]
Rich Roll
So it feels like, oh, come on.
- [16:24]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, exactly.
- [16:25]
Rich Roll
It wasn't really.
- [16:26]
Ed O'Brien
It wasn't that bad.
- [16:27]
Rich Roll
But that then prevents you from really kind of performing an autopsy on whatever emotional needs went unmet that show up later in Life and create these narratives about, you know, it stops who you are and your inner monologue and all of that.
- [16:41]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, it stops you from healing and, and, and that's the thing. And it was exactly that. It felt very indulgent. I'm not like that, I'm a rock. But my body was just saying enough. And that's somebody who said, you have to process this stuff. Because I also had a sense before this that the way I was being was sort of unsustainable. I was using profound amounts of energy to see a day three or see a project through. And I knew that in the medium of music, I had this innate sense music shouldn't be like a struggle, it should be a flow. And that's what I found subsequently about all life is a flow. Once you process stuff and once you're becoming whole, you're not using colossal amounts of energy just to make things happen. I felt like I was carrying away every day that was weighing me down. It was very, very, very physical. I mean, part of the process of this is. I think it's so interesting how it manifests itself in the body.
- [17:46]
Rich Roll
What's the operative story that's running in the background that is motivating you to push and be hard and have that burdened kind of relationship with the world and your work?
- [17:59]
Ed O'Brien
I had a relentless. I was never satisfied with what I'd done. So Jared, who's the. My Five Elements acupuncture practitioner, he's the kind of. He's the top guy in the uk, he said to me, when I went back to see him and I was in this period of darkness and he said, are you happy with what you've achieved? So we're talking 20, 21. And it required supreme honesty. If anyone else had asked me that in a. I'd have gone a course. It's amazing. I'm the most blessed and I knew that, but I didn't feel it. And I said to him, I said, no, I don't. And he said, don't you think that's crazy? I said, I know it's crazy. You know, that's why when someone asks me that, or a journalist, you go, yes, of course, it's extraordinary. I know that I've had the most blessed experience of my creative life. It doesn't get better if you want to be in a band from the 90s, it doesn't get better than being in Radiohead.
- [19:06]
Rich Roll
Right.
- [19:06]
Ed O'Brien
And if you'd said to my 16 year old self, this is going to be what your life. I really like, wow. And it is extraordinary. But I didn't feel it. And that was all self worth and the way that we were. Just the way that people talk to you. As a young child, you know, I had an epiphany in sort of 3/4 way through this, I was meditating and this thing came up in my mind and I've spoken quite a lot about this and my rapport, like a lot of kids reports said could do better. And I realized that, oh my God, that's.
- [19:40]
Rich Roll
That those tattooed on your brain.
- [19:43]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, those three words stopped me sitting back and going, wow, this is great. Because it says, you cannot enjoy this. You've got to keep doing. You've got to do. And it's relentless, it's exhausting. It's not sustainable.
- [19:56]
Rich Roll
The idea that the guy from Radiohead is going to complain about not being happy, you know, nobody wants to hear that.
- [20:03]
Ed O'Brien
No.
- [20:07]
Rich Roll
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- [20:43]
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- [20:44]
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- [21:13]
Check it out.
- [21:14]
Go to drinkag1.com rich roll. Get a free morning person hat and a free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription, an $82 value. That's drinkag1.com richroll here on the pod. Optimizing our lives is something that comes up a lot. How to hone our habits, our routines, our health. But what's wild is my car is doing that too. Because a Rivian is essentially the most powerful computer you'll probably ever own. Constantly learning, adapting, improving. And the crazy part is you barely notice it. The system is taking in information from cameras and sensors, making real time decisions to help keep everything smooth and safe. The navigation doesn't just give directions, it's thinking ahead, factoring in elevation, battery usage, and when and where to charge. And then there's the regular updates. You plug it in at night and wake up to a vehicle that's literally more capable than it was the day before. It's advanced, but it doesn't feel complicated. It just works and it lets you focus on what actually matters. The Drive. Visit any rivian space or rivian.com to learn more.
- [22:32]
This episode is brought to you by
- [22:33]
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- [22:58]
strain I impose upon myself. All of which, I have to say,
- [23:01]
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- [23:16]
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- [23:42]
You have this animating force that's telling you you're not enough. You got to push harder. You have to always be going the extra mile in order to earn love and acceptance and feel worthy of not just being in this band, but being alive. And that leads to this lack of satisfaction. But not for nothing, it's gotta feel at times quite heavy and burdensome to be in a band like Radiohead that is so revered. I mean, this band is so iconic, it's almost like a religion for people. And to have to carry that around is so loaded with expectations on how you're showing up to fulfill that. That, that promise with the legion of. Of fans all over the world. I mean, how do. How do you carry that? How does that feel inside you?
- [24:36]
Ed O'Brien
It's interesting. It's. I don't feel that at all. Like my son said to me, because I don't it doesn't register with me at all that my son said to me when we did these shows last. Last year, he said, dad, I don't think you realized how big Radiohead are. And I go, I think you're right. I have.
- [24:56]
Rich Roll
They're pretty big.
- [24:56]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. Yeah. And. But I've got.
- [25:01]
Rich Roll
No, because you're in it. You don't have that perspective.
- [25:04]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. And my life is. You know, my life is. As soon as the kids were born, that becomes like. If I. If I. That becomes a central part of my life, that's the mo. The most important thing in my life. And everything else gets. And now if I hadn't had kids and I'd stayed into that bubble and, you know, I think that would have happened, but because kids don't give a shit. And I loved being a dad. I think when Sal was born, when Salvador was born, I had a sense of, this is my purpose. This felt more real and more powerful and deeper than anything I'd ever had. And I remember the day after he was born at home, and we'd set up a birthing pool in the sitting room and. And. And the next day, so Sal. We had an enormous bed. And Sal, for the first year, slept in our bed between Susie and myself. It was so beautiful. And Susie didn't get out of bed for 14 days. We did this whole thing very much, very much subscribed and influenced by the whole continuum concept. And so the mother and child, Susie and Sal were asleep and I was clearing. I mean, it was just like a bomb site. I was getting rid of this huge amounts of water that had. You know, it had. It had all the. All the stuff from a birth. And. And I remember I felt like I had this moment. I was like. And I was so. Like, this is my job. I found my role. So that stopped me from being in kind of Radiohead land. And I'm pretty private. I've never liked. I've always felt deeply uncomfortable on the more public aspect of, you know, if we do an awards ceremony or we go out on Mass. I love the gigs. I love, love, love, love, love those shows because there's a lot of. But the. The more. The. The other stuff, I always sort of, sort of was able to. So I did. That question you asked me doesn't really register with me because I didn't really carry that with me. And I kind of like that because the other thing is that I. Again, I realized that a very early. I remember around the time Vocate computer and I was a single guy. And I was at a party and I was having conversation with this girl and we were getting on really well. It was like, she's lovely and she's liking me. And. And then she said. She said, what do you do? And up until then I've been really honest. I said, I'm in this band. And you know. And I said, and. And in before that, the previous Fives, you go in Radiohead, they go, oh, yeah, creep. Right? You go, yeah.
- [27:46]
Rich Roll
There was.
- [27:47]
Ed O'Brien
And this is okay, computer being out for three months. And she said, what you do? And I said, I'm in a band. Said, what's actually in radio, Andrew? And it was bizarre. And it completely changed.
- [27:58]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [27:58]
Ed O'Brien
Changed the connection. And we were getting on well and I thought.
- [28:01]
Rich Roll
And then she had to freak out.
- [28:03]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. I was just like, you see? You see, Rich? One of the things I realized in this whole.
- [28:11]
Rich Roll
But it took until. Okay, computer for that to happen.
- [28:13]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, exactly. And suddenly you're on another level. But I've always. One of my things is I love talking to people. I grew up so my parents and my grandparents were osteopaths and they had their practice on the ground floor of this big Oxford house. So there were five rooms and there was a big waiting room with lots of patients waiting to be treated. I would just wander down as a toddler, 2 year old and just talk to people. Old, young. So I've always loved. I've always been interested in other people and just talking to people. So you have to. The Radihead stuff has to be worn lightly if you're going to make connections. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in. I don't know. I'm interested in people, you know.
- [29:00]
Rich Roll
Yeah. What's interesting to me about that is, you know, knowing you a little bit from the time we spent in Austin, there's a healthy part to that, this idea. Like, I'm not comfortable with all the hullabaloo. Like, I know what my priorities are. I understand what's really important. But the flip side of that coin is motivated by something different. Like there is a discomfort within you around worthiness. And we talked about this last time. You're very comfortable kind of being in the background in Radiohead. Like, you create the soundscapes. You're literally responsible for the sound that we identify as being Radiohead. But your face is not as recognizable because you're not fronting the band. You're kind of in the back playing around with wires and plugging things in and working pedals and whatever it is that you do. And this mental health journey that you've been on and this album that you just released, this hero's journey isn't just about depression. It's about self love and honoring your own artistic voice to get in front of.
- [30:14]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah.
- [30:15]
Rich Roll
More than you ever have and use your voice and be comfortable with that. Like, there is a very beautiful self reverence in this work where you're honoring yourself maybe for the first time as an. As an artist. And that is the consequence of this mental health hero's journey that you've been on, that you can be in the fullness of your creative expression.
- [30:39]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. I mean, it's the process of it. It's interesting because it's. I'm no longer hiding. I mean, it's that. It's that thing. And why was I. You have to ask? Well, why was I hiding? Well, I was hiding because I had huge lack of self worth, you know, and by the way, I, you know, we were all responsible for the sound. It's really lovely of you to say that. I mean, I've definitely played a part in that, but it's. It was. It was a collective thing, but I. I didn't feel comfortable being front and center and I. I guess I was always hiding. And I think that thing that started in my childhood in that. That sort of quite scary environment as a child, you know, is if you don't. If you don't put your head above the parapet, you're not going to get hurt. But what's so amazing about all of this? I mean, I essentially say that the healing journey is a journey of the truth. Is a journey of truth. Right. And the truth sets you free. So what I found on this whole process. So, you know, like the previous record I did solo, I was wracked with like, can I do this body? But I was deeply uncomfortable being that. Being that person on point. So what do I do? I go out under my initials, eob.
- [31:53]
Rich Roll
Yeah. You wouldn't even put your full name on. It says everything you're kind of. But it's a step.
- [31:59]
Ed O'Brien
It's a step.
- [32:00]
Rich Roll
You made a solo album, but you're still too uncomfortable to actually attach your name to it.
- [32:05]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, but it's that thing. The truth sets you free and you, you, you. I've been saying I'm not fully there, but I'm definitely on the journey. I really don't care anymore because I cared so much before what people thought of me because I guess I wanted to be liked and loved. Why does somebody want to be liked and Loved. Because they feel that there was a deficit of that there's a hole there. It's the classic journey, right? So once you learn about. Once you go to that dark place and the healing process, as you said, is a process of self love and going, I'm okay, I'm okay, you know, and then you feel it. And then, of course, for me, my connection with spirit, for want of a better word, that's the thing that makes everything else. I can handle anything in a way. I don't care what people think of me now. You know, that feeling that I have, and I think very much like Thoreau, you know, his writings in Walden, that when I'm in nature, that's my, you know, when we're here. And if he were to leave me here all day and I'm wandering around and I've got a cup of tea and I can make some tea, good tea, and hear the birds and see the creatures and you can say anything to me now, and it's going to brush off me. Whereas before, I'd be rocked by it. But it's that connection with spirit which is at the center now, which is anchored in there. And that's the thing that I try to do on a daily basis to maintain that if I don't have that center, that's the thing that knocks me. And I do start caring. But that is the key thing. And that was the thing that came to me in this dark night of the soul. It's like, you know, people use that beautiful word grace. And I can't explain it because I'm. It's quite hard to explain. For those who, you know, I come from, like I always say, I come from Oxford, which is one of the most cerebral places on the planet. They threw out spirit and God when they threw out religion. And I understand the. The casting aside of religion because it's, you know, there are beautiful aspects of it, but there's also controlling people, which is. And. And the, you know, but that thing is so part of my life now and has been. And. And I think I've been seeking it for a long time. Like, I. I've been meditating for 20 years. I call myself the mongrel meditator. I taught myself, and for years I just would turn up on the mat and just be quiet. But now it feels different. It's a different level. And that's the thing. I think it's that thing that when you really look at. When I really looked at the. So how does it all fit together? What happens first I think that thing of that dark night of the soul forces you to look at your fears and sit at your fears, really find out what it is that's put you in this place. And then you sit and you're not running away from it. And each day it gets easier to sit with them. And then you find stillness. And in that stillness comes grace, comes spirit. And so it's quite a tricky thing to talk about, but that's my truth. That's what I feel. And I think. I don't know if you've experienced that form of grace, have you? Is that something that.
- [35:30]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I think that on your journey. Yeah, yeah, of course. I think a lot of it has to do with, again, going back to, you know, the story that we tell ourselves about what it is. Like we have words for these things. You're having a mental health crisis, you know, and when you use violent word choices like that, it's going to compel you to think that there's something bad or wrong. And when you experience some degree of discomfort, your first impulse is, how do I change this? How do I get out of this? It's not supposed to be this way. And what you're talking about is being okay with the discomfort. Like, the stillness is acceptance and surrender. And when you're attached to whatever you're going through, changing, you're actually interfering with the process that actually is going to get you to change and transform, which is stopping everything. Being okay with where you're at, relinquishing your impulse to control, letting go of your discomfort with the uncertainty of it all and what it means and allowing it to be what it is. Like, it's basically accepting reality. And in your case, you go out to Wales, this is your special place, and this very primal, untouched part of the world becomes an antenna to spirit that allows you to inhabit a deeper sense of stillness that brings the healing that you need so that you can detach from outcomes, focus on process. And the more in alignment you become, the easier it is for you to speak your truth and get in front of the microphone and create art that is actually a reflection of who you truly are, rather than trying to make something that you think people want from you or that you should be doing because of your station in life. How's that for my. Oh, my God, my big monologue on Ed o'. Brien.
- [37:39]
Ed O'Brien
As you were just saying that I'm like, you are so coherent and eloquent on this. I mean, there's a reason you're writing books and there's a Reason you do this podcast, I'm still in that phase. It's funny, as you said that, because when you say it's like being with a teacher who, you know, talking about serenity, it's like I'm still in that phase when I'm kind of. I haven't pieced it all together. It's still bits like that and I can see bits, and I'm sort of riffing on it.
- [38:02]
Rich Roll
But you just put it, this is my autopsy.
- [38:05]
Ed O'Brien
But it's. But what you're saying is presumably that's also.
- [38:08]
Rich Roll
That's.
- [38:09]
Ed O'Brien
That's a journey. That's a very common journey.
- [38:12]
Rich Roll
I mean, nobody wants to get still and stop and, you know, sit in their discomfort. We want to go out in the world and make people like us and notice us and do things and have relationships, etc. And we just. We just get in our own way.
- [38:29]
Ed O'Brien
But you know what's so interesting that I found I had several mantras, and one of them was I do this thing where I. I had. Every day, part of my ritual was, you know, I meditate. Then I'd go outside with a pot of tea, beautiful Paimutan tea, a white tea, rain or shine, any season. And I'd listen to the birds. And then I've got my book and I'd read my. Just my intentions. And one of them was, was this thing, and you mentioned it about nobody wants uncertainty. It's one of my mantras is like, that's the place to be. I know creatively, that's the place to be uncertainty. Because. Because uncertainty is in creativity. That's the place where you do your best work. You're not relying on what's gone before what. You know, you're kind of out of your comfort zone. And I think that's the same thing in life. Because what I love about. And I now, I embrace uncertainty or I know. I know that it's really good for me because that's the place that's free of past conditioning, you know, that's the place where everything that your mind has learned is the accumulation of a lifetime's worth of experiences in that place of uncertainty that disappears. And you're like, oh, shit, where am I? But that's where transformation happens, you know, And I. And it is a funny thing. It's. It's a. I wonder if that's part of the journey. That's the. The journey of the soul. The evolution is that. Is that, you know, you're right. When we're in a more. Not infantile Space. But I wouldn't say infant, because that wouldn't be fair. But certainly young adults, we see, seek comfort and we seek security. We don't trust in the universe. You know, the world tells us it's brutish and it's ugly, and our system kind of encourages that as well. But when you go through this other side and you. You go through these breakthroughs, it's learning more to let go and trusting. And then you go, okay, that I. I like being in this place of uncertainty. I feel like right now I'm in a really big moment of uncertainty.
- [40:52]
Rich Roll
But uncertainty is reality.
- [40:55]
Ed O'Brien
Yes, exactly.
- [40:56]
Rich Roll
We think that things are more certain than they are, and we make most of our life decisions trying to control external circumstances to give us a greater sense of certainty. I think I brought this up in the panel that we did, but there's a great psychiatrist called Phil Stutz. He's been on the show a couple times, and his whole thing. He treats a lot of very successful people here in town who are terminally dissatisfied. And his whole thing on what's driving this degree of unhappiness and dissatisfaction is that they deny three unavoidable truths of life. Pain, uncertainty, and the need for constant work. Meaning we're all deluded into this idea that if we can accumulate enough and have enough stature and prestige, etcetera, that we will be able to transcend these truths, that we will arrive at a place where we won't have to deal with pain anymore, everything's locked down. There'll be no more uncertainty, and we won't really have to work on ourselves anymore. And this is just driving all of our suffering. And to your point, uncertainty is a big one and maybe the most nuanced one, because truly, everything is uncertain. We just do not know. And we think we do, and we have these control impulses. But as an artist, there's no room for discovery. If you go into the studio or approach whatever it is you're trying to express locked into some idea of what it's going to be or should be. And I know because I've heard you talk about this with Blue Morpho. Going in without an agenda and just paying attention and opening up your antenna for something to come in is how this whole thing happened. By not being attached to what it should be or could be and allowing it to be what it wanted to be.
- [43:00]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the less I sort of try to control it or move it, the more the. The richer it got. The. The. And. And the more, yeah, kind of I felt the more magnificent it got because it didn't feel like me. And my only job is. My job is my intuition to being honest with that and going, this feels good or that I'm not sure that's very good. And that's really important because you. You're not like a rudderless ship. You're like. You're like in the river, but you're just gently going, oh, that feels good. And you're not. You can't force anything. It's happening, but it needs you to be present and it needs you to be true to what you're feeling. And that the truth that, you know you can. So that, you know in creativity you can. You can do those things where you can work on something all day, but you've got to also have the guts to go, I'm not really feeling good. Yeah, you can see, you know, we all have that thing. We put a lot of effort into stuff and. But that's okay, right?
- [44:04]
Rich Roll
How do you know when you've stumbled upon an idea, a progression of sounds that is working is. It just. It stays with you. It's intuition. Like, how do you know when. Oh, I need to go back and develop that. Versus, like, eh.
- [44:21]
Ed O'Brien
It's so interesting. One of the things I feel like I'm a real novice to songwriting, so I'm kind of speaking with. I'm speaking about it in a way that it's still kind of the guy in Radiohead. Well. But the songwriting aspect that comes. That how these songs come about, that was the domain of Tom. You know, Tom would get to the. And he would bring us the songs in rehearsal, not in the early days, and then the studio. And then we might flesh them out and arrange them and write our own parts. But we weren't involved. We're very, very, very rarely, very rarely involved in the actual first shoots of that song. That was him on his own, and then he might work with Johnny or something. But for me, I hadn't experienced that, and I've really been experiencing like that the last 12 years. So I still feel like I'm. It's early days in that. But what's. What I found that. I mean, I find it. I find it just extraordinary is that sometimes you get this thing and essentially music is. It's mathematical intervals and their patterns and sometimes they're repeated. I mean, that's essentially what it is. But sometimes that. That musical motif can come out and in that moment you suddenly feel this excitement because you can feel like the universe of this song. You don't know all the detail, but you suddenly go, oh, wow. And there's something about the emotion that comes with it, but it's also. You feel the potential of what this thing, a track that doesn't have that. You kind of get meh. You don't feel that. It's just like it comes out and you go, okay. But the really good ones, they. It's. It's like a. It is. It's like an acorn seed. An acorn. In that seed, you have the potential of this magnificent tree that can grow and be that thing. The potential of that growth is all in there from that seed. It's in that thing. And you get the same thing with. It's extraordinary. You can get the same thing with music, with some notes in an interval and pattern, you know,
- [46:40]
Rich Roll
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- [49:22]
Based upon what you just said, I think I can predict how you feel about the advent of AI in music and in songwriting. Yeah, say your piece on that.
- [49:36]
Ed O'Brien
I mean, I really worry about AI in general terms because I think it's another one of those spending so much time in the countryside. I was originally a country boy and then lived in a city in London for 30 years, in Manchester, and then country boy again. And what you realize when you live in a city is that human beings go around and they go, wow, look at these beautiful buildings, these things that we've created. It's all. All about human beings enamored with their own creativity and their own cleverness. Whereas if in the countryside, you look at a tree and you go, you look at those leaves, you look at the perfection of that branch and you go, great artists can maybe match that beauty and that, that, that thing, and they can represent that. That's where real beauty resides. And I feel the same way with AI I feel like I see these very, very blinkered people who are enamored with AI and its potential, and they're using all sorts of excuses, like they always pull out the medical one. They always go, it's going to revolutionize medicine. But, you know, what do they let in through the back door? And so in terms of creativity, there's no doubt that it will have a huge effect on the music industry and what it will probably. There's always been an aspect of music that has had the mass appeal, certainly sort of what I call sort of plastic pop music. I think that's where AI will make the biggest inroads, which is a shame, because also I grew up in an era of pop music where the, you know, the pop artists were people like Madonna And George Michael and, you know, not that I was huge fans of Madonna, but brilliant pop star and a great singer and a great songwriter. All these things. I think the plastic, that thing. I think the artistry of, you know, AI doesn't have a soul yet. And in my understanding spirit, how can it have a soul? I resonate with Buddhism, you know, very much so. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but. But the whole idea. We've had many, many lives. We have a thing called a soul which inhabits our physical body. And when we're born, that soul enters a physical body, and when we die, it leaves. And then it goes up and has another lifetime. A machine can't have a soul. It can have a. It's like a mind. It can have a supreme intelligence. And I just think great music has to have soul. All my favorite music, you know, they come from. It's not just. It's not just mathematics.
- [52:24]
Rich Roll
It's.
- [52:25]
Ed O'Brien
There is. There's a huge aspect of it that is mathematics, and that's what it tries to do. But it's the energy and it's the love and it's the emotion and whatever it is that accompanies it that can elevate and make music what it is.
- [52:39]
Rich Roll
When you were going through it, what role was. Did music play in you navigating this depression?
- [52:50]
Ed O'Brien
I stopped listening to music, and it was more about the form, the type of music, and it was really about the type of music, I guess, if you want that. I traditionally come from, I guess, alternative music. And I think that there was. I just had enough. And it felt like I was full. That. Well, was full. I never need to hear this music again. And then at that stage, I was just. It was that first lockdown, and I was just listening to birdsong. The birds were alive. They were happy. It felt like they were celebrating that human beings had finally stopped and they could breathe and sing their songs. So I was really enamored by birdsong and the sounds of nature I couldn't listen to. And then what happens? I start. It's like a. It's like. It's like ground zero. And then you just feed. And I started feeding. There's an album called Spirit of Eden by Talk Talk, which is an extraordinary record. So that was one of the things that I bought that on vinyl in. In lockdown. And that sort of started. That really resonated. And then I realized what I was being drawn to was sort of music that felt like it didn't have the traditional form or the kind of form that I was used to. Because I was sort of letting go. The music had to represent that. I didn't want to hear something with a very distinct arrangement like a verse, chorus, verse, chorus that had no interest in. For me at all. I felt bored by it. It felt like. But I said, how do I. But at the same time, I was playing my guitar in a very unformless way, but just little musical motifs. And the. The thing was, as. As the days went by and I started to listen to. I started to listen to more classical music and more jazz music. So what was coming in was not formless music, but music that I couldn't. Because I didn't have the musical brain power, if you like to go with the form is like that. It felt like it was more open ended. I could understand the movements.
- [55:15]
Rich Roll
How can I make sounds that reflect this emotional state that I'm experiencing?
- [55:20]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. And it had be.
- [55:21]
Rich Roll
To be free of any kind of.
- [55:22]
Ed O'Brien
It has to be without form, but it couldn't be. It had to have some form. It had to have melody. It had to have a journey through it. You know, it couldn't be sort of gratuitously. You know, there has to be something that you latch onto for a listen. So I was just trying to find that. And that, again, was. I mean, it was so interesting. I mean, the trap, Blue Morpho, when the first thing that went down on that was an acoustic guitar track. So it's so interesting. I hadn't thought of this, but I guess that may be. This is the first time I've realized this. That may be the moment where the record was suddenly. This is how it is. So it was a Beautiful hot summer, 2022, in the studio in Wales. We had the windows up, beautiful. It's a Georgian house, so these big windows and sash windows. We had a microphone outside here for the birdsong. Because we were gonna record some of this bird song.
- [56:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Which is how that song opens.
- [56:27]
Ed O'Brien
Exactly. And then I had. I had these series of little musical motifs and I had an idea for, like. It goes from that section to that section, which is Blue Morpho. But I didn't know how they run. And certainly at the top of the song, I didn't know how to. I didn't know how we would step into this song. And so I just sort of let go and I had my acoustic guitar and I just played it and I thought it was a kind of a rough thing. And that version. That guitar is the guitar that is on Blue Morpho. And that. That was the arrangement now, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just letting go. And that was. And that sort of gave me confidence, but that was also underpinned. And it was. And it's that thing, like I'm saying, the more I'm letting go. And that was being in a place of uncertainty, but not before, where uncertainty was something that I might be frightened of or paralyzed by. It was just that it's embracing. It's like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's just, you know, just. I don't. I don't know what I'm doing. I know.
- [57:40]
Rich Roll
That's the discovery part.
- [57:42]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah.
- [57:42]
Rich Roll
That's the comfort with uncertainty that gives birth to something new that you couldn't have predicted if you were trying to manage it. Exactly.
- [57:51]
Ed O'Brien
And that's the beauty of what I do. And that's why, for me now, it is so intoxicating. It's so like, oh, my God, I want to do this more. Because the more I lean into this uncertainty.
- [58:05]
Rich Roll
Well, that's where the shit is.
- [58:06]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, exactly.
- [58:08]
Rich Roll
That's where it is, the record. You're going on this journey. It opens with incantations.
- [58:13]
Ed O'Brien
It's.
- [58:13]
Rich Roll
You know, it's a. It's. It's dark and it's. It's kind of pounding, and you're having this visceral experience. And then Blue Morpho. You hear the birds. You realize there's light at the end of the tunnel. Like, it's gonna be okay. You're telling this story, and in listening to it and listening to the album again and again, like, you could be a film composer. Like, there's a lot of, like, film composition DNA built into this record. Have you thought about that? I mean, I know Johnny's got that.
- [58:44]
Ed O'Brien
Johnny's got that down. He's the king.
- [58:47]
Rich Roll
He's figured that one out.
- [58:48]
Ed O'Brien
He's figured it out. And he's so good at that because he's also got all the musical chops he's got. You know, he can score stuff. He writes. I can't write music. It's interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know, music for me is very visual. When I connect with music, it's very visual. I like. I mean, I've always loved film music. Every. You know, I think one of the earliest albums my parents had was Midnight Cowboy, the Jon Void, Dustin Hoffman. Great soundtrack. Obviously, everybody's talking the Fred Neil song. Nielsen sang it, but also the soundtrack by John Barry. But I loved Ennio Morricone, loved the sound. I mean, one of my favorite films. But I had the album before I ever. I had the album for three years before I ever saw the film was Wim Wendell's Paris, Texas. The Raikuda soundtrack. I love that. And I would listen in my bedroom in West Oxfordshire and dream about deserts in West Texas, you know, so this is.
- [59:51]
Rich Roll
I'm seeing your future, I think. I think, yeah. You're lighting up talking about this. I think there's some. Something there for you.
- [59:57]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah. I mean, I'm intrigued. I just. I just. There's a discipline involved there and I don't know whether I can. I would be able to like, shackle my. My letting go with the discipline of making a record. You know, I'm. I'm still at a stage and I had a meeting with a music supervisor here in la and he's great and he was saying similar things and I said to myself, I want to do another album first. I want to. I feel like I'm. I just love making my own movies, if you like. And I.
- [60:33]
Rich Roll
Which you did with this. Yeah.
- [60:35]
Ed O'Brien
Well, my ideal is that I make the music and then someone else makes the movie. That's what would be really. I mean, I'd love to be able to do.
- [60:42]
Rich Roll
Who's going to make the movie to my album?
- [60:44]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, who's going to make the movie to my album? And if. If there's anyone out there who, you know, and I think it's interesting there. I think it's also with, you know, look at my. My friend, my. My sort of bestie, Garth, who. Who's a film director and done all the sing movies and written them in animation, but made Son of Rambo. He started off in making, you know, videos as a David Fincher and, you know, but there are people like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson, who. Johnny works with whom.
- [61:13]
Rich Roll
Who.
- [61:13]
Ed O'Brien
Where he's made videos for Tom. I think directors also. There's a niche there that they quite like that they get these little five, six minutes songs.
- [61:22]
Rich Roll
Sure.
- [61:23]
Ed O'Brien
Whether I have the musical rigor and capacity to do that thing, music, soundtracks, I don't know. I definitely would like to do it someday, but I don't feel I'm ready for it now. I want to. I want to just explore. I want to just make my own music.
- [61:40]
Rich Roll
At the moment you referred your depression as a dark night of the soul or this hero's journey. There's lots of phrases that you can kind of attach to what it's like to be in that state of confusion and despair. The sort of perpetually dissatisfied caterpillar that goes into the chrysalis and emerges as the blue morpho butterfly. What are the lessons that you have learned from going through this process that you want people to understand so that they can engage with their own challenges similarly? Like, what is the wisdom that you've come out of these experiences?
- [62:32]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, it's okay. This is a well worn journey and I love this expression that you Americans have. You've got this, you really have got this if you can lean into it. And you know, obviously there are various versions of it and I'm not talking about a version whereby I'm about to take my own life. Mine was not as acute as that. So that's a whole other level you need, you know, you. But for me, I'm so thankful for having gone through that journey. I would go through that again because when you come out the other side and the transformation and the evolution, the gains that to be had are so extraordinary. And how I feel now and the clarity that I have and I haven't had depression since then, I feel like I'm whole. As you can tell, I never, I don't have, like, you need this, this, this. I'm that very digresses. It's okay. And actually, again, back to my original thing. If you can frame what you're going through as part of the arc of your journey as this is just a moment, this too shall pass. But the thing that you will grow from, this will be extraordinary. And the clarity that you'll have and the peace that you'll find, you will look back on that time and even though you're in the middle of it and it's supremely uncomfortable, you look back and you go, I got through this. I held on. You know, some days it's one foot in front of the other, other days it's just literally holding on.
- [64:11]
Rich Roll
It's interesting that we have the choice to basically perceive anything that happens to us as an opportunity for growth and transformation. Yeah. But if you're in that deep state of despair or, you know, just in the dark, to say to that person like, this too shall pass, or, you know, you're going to look back on this and be grateful and you're going to learn so much that's very difficult. Like, is there like anything that you've learned that you can share with somebody who is in that state to help them avoid a little bit of unnecessary suffering?
- [64:45]
Ed O'Brien
Well, I don't think you just sit there and wait for it to pass. I think there has to be. You have to try and figure out what it is. And that can be a multitude of things. Right. Like I said, like I went through the whole thing. It can be, you know, if I. If I were to eat a diet of junk food and take loads of drugs and just spend my time on my phone, on social media, I would be in a terrible place. So, you know, like you said, lifestyle things are huge. And in fact, in many ways I think those thinking about it, those things are super helpful. Lifestyle changes are super helpful in the moment to propel you forward out of that. But the other thing is, as I keep. As I sort of alluded to, is the thing that I actually tell friends when they're going through this. And, you know, I've had friends going through it. I guess the best advice, I said, learn to meditate. That's a practical thing. But there's something in that, that it's. You're being proactive, but you're allowing the healing to happen because, you know, what you're reaching is a place of. So, I mean, I truly believe that every child on this planet should be taught at school the ability mindfulness and meditation as a coping mechanism, because so much of it is about that 100%.
- [66:10]
Rich Roll
I feel like you would, you would do well living out in Malibu. You're kind of like this. You're a wellness influencer, Ed. You know, like, you, you, you grew up with osteopaths as parents.
- [66:21]
Yeah.
- [66:22]
You're into acupuncture, meditation. Yeah. Healthy eating, immersion in nature, you know, Buddhism, past life. Like, you're just. I mean.
- [66:33]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, I know. I'm a walking, flipping Malibu cliche.
- [66:36]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [66:37]
Like, you know, you're an easy fit out here. How does that work in the, in the uk? Is this still these novel ideas?
- [66:44]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, I mean, I've community of friends. It's funny, I think I've always resonated with the west coast spirit. I've always. I mean, what I've loved about California and out here is this openness. And I think a lot of people out here are seeking and I'm a seeker.
- [67:02]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [67:02]
Ed O'Brien
And I've loved the openness. Like, oh, I'm going to try that. My grandmother was American. American. So I came over to America from, you know, from age 13 and I loved that sense of, you can do this, you've got this, that openness. And Whereas Britain was all about, oh, you can't do that, mate. Oh, no, well, you're going to do that. No, no, you know, and I've loved that thing, that openness. So embracing different things. Oh, I Try that. And that's my journey. My journey is not like, I don't have some guru. I haven't lived in a community like Malibu. And so, oh, you need to do this. Mine is entirely just experiential. I've got. Oh, tried that. And things come on my path and I've tried lots of things that don't work. Where I've come to is just. These are things I figured out for myself. And, you know, you're not going to do meditation and have a meditative practice unless there's something there because it's a commitment. Same thing with giving up booze. If that doesn't work and live and eating well, if that makes you. That doesn't change how you feel, well, what's the point? Investing in that. I'll go back because getting drunk was great, you know, so. Well, it wasn't, but. Yeah, so Britain wasn't like that. But it's. The dial is shifting. Another generation. I was definitely, you know, I went to see a healer 25 years ago and my wife and I had to keep it pretty quiet. And I haven't even ever told my father because my father is an osteopath and he go, like, it's all nonsense. I haven't even told him. He doesn't know because again, I didn't have the courage to go, like, well, you know, fuck you. I went and it was good. And, you know, whereas I come to. I come to California. They go, oh, yeah, which healer did you see? Oh, yeah, we saw it.
- [68:56]
Rich Roll
You need to see this. You see that one?
- [68:58]
Ed O'Brien
Or Oprah win. Yeah. Was that the one that Oprah went to see? Yeah. So I've, I. What is it about this place? You, you. I mean, you're at the Atlantic, you're the Pacific, rather, You know, you've got Asia, which. A lot of this stuff has come from Asia. Right. You know, you've, you've, you've had a. And I mean, I guess that's what it is. Your influence from Asia is far stronger because you're nearer and certainly over the top from Seattle and all the way down. You've had this influence of Asia from the, from the Pacific, whereas we haven't had that. We're really on the other side of the world. But we gradually, in the 60s, stuff came through. But there's something about this land here, isn't there? There's something about. I always used to find this, you know, on tour in America. You'd arrive and you come from the north, from playing in Oregon and The moment you crossed into California, there's something about the light, there's something about the energy and that supports seekers and that supports this thing. And maybe it's an abundance of spirit in nature. Maybe. I don't know. You probably know better. But.
- [70:06]
Rich Roll
Well, I think also Los Angeles was, you know, this is historically the place of dreamers. You know, the dreamers, the people with the imagination, the artists gravitated here. And there's a permissiveness. It sort of didn't. It wasn't developed with a history. And so it was written outside of the, like, rules and structures. And I think it attracted people who wanted to get away from that.
- [70:36]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah.
- [70:36]
Rich Roll
So the, you know, the free thinking thing, it's just a more permissive environment for them, I think, for better and worse. But on that note, you've evolved as an artist as well as a songwriter, as a musician, a vocalist. We talked about embracing uncertainty and as you become more whole, creating this greater access to your own personal truth and how that ends up in your music. So what is the message that you have for the aspiring artist or musician out there who's trying to up level their relationship with creativity?
- [71:20]
Ed O'Brien
To thine own self be true. I mean, you know, be true to yourself. That is the absolute key. And you've got to figure out what that is. Because I spent for years hiding my hiding. Didn't know what I really felt or didn't allow myself. I thought I should feel. It's that you've got to be supremely honest to what you. To your truth. There's obviously a commercial aspect which is. Can make things very confusing. But you never make music for other people. You make it for yourself, first and foremost. You cannot second guess what people. There's no idea. You have to. It has to move you. I think what I realized is that you make music that you want to hear. I like my music feels like this sort of amalgam of things. And I think in a way I'm trying to make music that. Yeah. That. That I haven't got in my library or. And so. But that's. How do I do that? By being true to myself.
- [72:18]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Especially with AI all we have is our perspective.
- [72:22]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah.
- [72:23]
Rich Roll
And our experience.
- [72:24]
Ed O'Brien
And we're all different, we're all unique. And that's what makes it so amazing. And it's, you know, and it's. It can be scary because, you know, nobody likes to be judged, you know, but it's all right. It's just there's lots of music out
- [72:39]
Rich Roll
there that your album just Came out. So what did you read?
- [72:42]
Reviews.
- [72:42]
Ed O'Brien
Do you like.
- [72:43]
Rich Roll
You don't? You don't.
- [72:43]
Ed O'Brien
I haven't read a review since. OK. Computer. Wow. Since April 1997. Because it's. They were so good and I realized there was this whole thing that reviews can create sort of. Well, at that time they were able to create heaven or hell. You know, a bad review is horrific and a good review, oh, brilliant. That's not a healthy statement. And then you realize, of course, the reviewers, that's their unique filter. How are they feeling that day? How do they feel about you as an artist? Is that tainted by. It's like I. It's really liberating not reading what people write about you because again, it's that thing. Back to what I said. You then don't walk around with this notion that you're either important or you're not important. You just be. That's the essence. Just be. Just do it.
- [73:39]
Rich Roll
So the band's getting back together again. Radiohead. You guys are touring?
- [73:43]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, we did it. Well, it's not like we're getting back together again, but we did a tour. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [73:48]
Rich Roll
How is the health of Radiohead? How has your role in that band evolved as a result of stepping out on your own?
- [73:56]
Ed O'Brien
Like how things change at all. I mean, I think it's just what was nice about it was it feels very democratic, which is kind of its strength. I felt like with that touring, I just had an enormous sense of gratitude because in so many ways that. To be doing this with my brothers, and I say my brothers, but it does feel like a brotherhood. It's that kind of depth you have that, you know, like you do in families, you have, you know, when you serve up a meal, you know, your. You know, your sister doesn't like ketchup. You don't, you know. You know, she doesn't. Likewise, all these. These bits of intimate knowledge. I have the same thing with these guys without even reason. I know that. I know that Colin doesn't like coleslaw, but he. You know, and so you have all this incredibly detailed. It's just there because you've grown up together. So it just. Again, it feels really simple. It's just really lovely to be playing these. These. These songs, these. These lovely songs with people who are. You've had this long journey with, who are supreme musicians, really good people at heart. And. Yeah, I mean, that's what. And. And how lucky are we that people want to come and see it? And these songs move people and. And I think that's the thing when we played live, we were just. We were sort of. It was just. It was extraordinary. It was very, very emotional, and we found it very emotional. And on those levels of. We could sort of. We've been doing this now for a while, and we hadn't done it for a while, so. But we've been playing songs together for many years, and they're emotional, they're deep songs, and there's a beauty there, and people want to see it.
- [75:59]
Rich Roll
I heard you say in another interview that you hadn't listened to a lot of the songs for a long time, and then when you kind of went back and you're getting into the tour again, you're like, these are good songs. Like, it's.
- [76:13]
Ed O'Brien
I know, I know that sounds like. Actually, everyone's always laughed when I said that, but that was my feeling. Because when you're doing them, I think. Because with Radiohead, there was this sort of. And again, it comes to. Could do better. And I think that was a universal thing for all of us. It was. We just continue. Got to do more. You've got to get better, better, better. So you never appreciated what you'd done. And it was so nice and going through. We. We didn't have any new material to. To. To. To have to find or work on, or. We were just being. And you go, wow, that song's really. And not having played them for seven, eight years.
- [76:49]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [76:50]
Ed O'Brien
So that's.
- [76:51]
Rich Roll
I would imagine it. Intentionality and conscious effort to maintain the health of all of these relationships. What is it that you and the members of the band have done to, like, protect the sanctity of those bonds so that you can continue to, you know, play music together so many years later?
- [77:18]
Ed O'Brien
Well, we. We haven't done any. We hadn't done any group therapy. Yeah.
- [77:22]
Rich Roll
Is it.
- [77:23]
Ed O'Brien
Which at times, like the Metallica documentary. No. And full credit to them. And I think, you know, band's inherently dysfunctional, so group therapy is not a bad idea. I mean, I think what we did was we've just gone away from one another and everybody's moved forward and everybody's grown and everybody's done their own work, if you like. And I'm not saying they did therapy, but it's that people have been. You can see that age has been good to us in terms of fostering respect and love. And I just think at the end of that iteration of Radiohead in 2018, there are a lot of people around us, and it got so big. And Brian, our manager, sort of in the subsequent years we'd have meetings, just bring it down to the five of us. And when you distill it to the five, I mean, that is Radiohead, you know, playing these songs that Tom has written and we add to in color and we add our own stuff, but that's what it is. And again, it's quite simple. But it's amazing how complex these things and, you know, it's the classic stories of when you have a successful enterprise, you can get people who attach themselves to it.
- [78:45]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [78:46]
Ed O'Brien
Who aren't good for that. They're not good. They're not part of it. They're not good for the soul. But they're. They're trying to make themselves important in that organization. So we. We've had a bit of, you know, worming out.
- [78:59]
Rich Roll
Yeah, weeding.
- [79:02]
Ed O'Brien
Yeah, definitely.
- [79:03]
Rich Roll
I got to get you to the airport, so I'm going to let you go. But it was a real treat to talk to you, Ed. Congrats on the album. You're lovely. I want only good things for you. And this latest expression, I think, is the first in many to come of you bringing full expression to your voice. And I commend you for not only enduring what you did to give birth to this work of art, but by being so open to sharing what that experience was like to help normalize the experience of going through difficult times. It's powerful.
- [79:40]
Ed O'Brien
Thank you, Rich. Well, right back at you. You know, the questions that you ask are, you make it easy.
- [79:46]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [79:47]
Ed O'Brien
It's a flow.
- [79:48]
Rich Roll
Good man. Well, come back and. Yeah, continue the conversation.
- [79:51]
Ed O'Brien
Thank you. What a place.
- [79:52]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Look at this coming out here. Cheers.
- [79:56]
Ed O'Brien
Thank you.
- [79:57]
Rich Roll
Thanks.