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The Rich Roll Podcast
Smile, Or You're Doing It Wrong: Andy Glaze On Relentless Positivity, PTSD, & The Healing Power Of Movement
01:10:51
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- [00:01]
A
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- [02:10]
B
I did a ridiculous amount of meth at a very young age. When they found me, I was, you know, emaciated, strung out, like, probably hadn't slept in days. I was like, I don't want to feel like this anymore. I'm going in a different direction. The one and only Andy Glaze.
- [02:27]
A
Arguably the most inspiring ultra endurance athlete in the world.
- [02:30]
B
He serves others while juggling his passion for running. I have like a intense fire inside that burns. That's what allows me to do all this crazy stuff. From triathlons to ultra running and every flavor. Cause it's all fun. Yeah, it hurts and yeah, it's uncomfortable. But dead people don't get to suffer. And I'm alive, you know.
- [02:51]
A
How long has your hundred mile, a week running streak been going on? At this point?
- [02:57]
B
320 weeks.
- [03:01]
A
Andy, man, so good to meet you. This is long overdue. So excited to talk to you, bro.
- [03:05]
B
I'm so excited to be here. This is a dream come true, honestly.
- [03:09]
A
Yeah, you're the guy who's running all these races you're putting in, you know, these 100 mile weeks. And you're the guy who is known for smiling. It's the title of your book. So you're the smiling ultra runner guy. But honestly, to me there's so much more to your story. It's about two things in my opinion. It's about the space between falling down and getting back back up. And second, how physical movement is a catalyst for emotional healing.
- [03:37]
B
Yeah, I mean, so I mean the beginning of sort of the downfall was probably my parents divorce. They got divorced when I was about 10 and they split up. And so then I had two kind of different households that I was having to navigate at a young age. My dad was like a workaholic, so he was never home. And then my mom was like a loving mom, but she had been a stay at home mom and then had to go back to work because now she was divorced. So she was at work, my dad was at work. And so I kind of, you know, a Gen Xer, kind of raised myself right. I mean we were, we were of that age where we came back home when the street lights came on and like not a lot of parental supervision, you know, before cell phones, before pagers, all that sort of stuff. And so I had a lot of time just without any parental supervision. And that sort of led me into maybe not hanging out with like the best group of friends, which then led to, you know, starting to smoke pot and then just experimenting with all sorts of other drugs and alcohol, which then you know, got into like some really heavy stuff like you know, crystal meth. And then I just really spiraled out of control at a, you know, at a very rapid descent. At a young age I basically had a friend whose father sold crystal meth and weed to the biker gangs of Southern California. I lived down kind of by Palm Springs and they would, they'd bring the meth and weed up from Mexico and like Redlands, which is where I live, was kind of like a stop off point. Hell's Angels had like, you know, clubhouse in San Bernardino. And like, so there was a lot of drugs coming through and I just had like unlimited access to this stuff. And I did a ridiculous Amount of meth at a very young age, which, you know, I was smoking it out of light bulbs. I was, I remember for like my 16th birthday, they gave me a line as long as my arm and I did the whole line, you know, I mean, just really crazy amounts of drugs that a young person should not take. Which eventually caused me to like, run away from home. Luckily, my dad was able to like, hire some off duty cops to find me. And then of course, when they found me, I was, you know, emaciated, strung out, like, probably hadn't slept in days.
- [06:08]
A
How long had you been away from home when you ran away?
- [06:12]
B
It wasn't long, probably like a week or so. It was like, you know, I'm 16, so I'm just sleeping on people's couches and, you know, kind of like I didn't, you know, I was so incapacitated with the drugs that I wasn't even thinking people were looking for me. I had run away and I just figured, okay, now I'm like on my own and I can just, you know, do this. But no, I mean, my dad was like, they were all actively looking for me. I just wasn't even thinking about that as like a possibility.
- [06:38]
A
I don't want to rush through this. So, 13, you start smoking cigarettes.
- [06:43]
B
Yes.
- [06:44]
A
And by 16, you're completely strung out on crystal Met. Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty compressed period of time to, to go from, hey, I'm a young kid and maybe I'm bumming a cigarette here and there to like being a full blown, like crystal meth addict.
- [06:58]
B
Right. It was just really easy to, to access.
- [07:01]
A
What was the first time you smoked crystal meth? Like, was that like a light bulb moment? Like, oh my God.
- [07:12]
B
I mean, it just feels really, really good. I mean, I think, you know, I always think about it and I've described it. It's like taking in happiness. Right? Like, you just feel so euphoric when you take it in that at a young age. And I was going through some stuff. Like around 15, my dad was diagnosed with cancer. They gave him like six months to live. And so I didn't know how to process that as a 15 year old. You know, I wasn't given any tools or like, hey, you should do this. I just did more drugs. Drugs made me feel good. I didn't critically think about it, like, oh, I'm doing these drugs to mask my, you know, of course not that age. Yeah, intense depression that I'm about to lose my dad. And my dad was very strict and very Hard on me, but he's still my dad, you know, the crystal meth just made me feel so good and just like, you know, being up for days and days with just endless energy and just, it made everything in life fun. Like I, I know I could clean my room and it was fun and I was used to feeling like that, you know, I mean, weed, I would smoke it and it would make me feel slow and it would kind of like just kind of make me chill out. But like crystal meth made me just want to do everything and everything I did was fun. It didn't matter what it was, it was just, just, just amazing. High and as a 15 year old, 16 year old, you don't really sure understand the lifelong consequences of doing this stuff.
- [08:45]
A
Super addictive, very difficult to get off of.
- [08:48]
B
Yes.
- [08:48]
A
And somehow you managed to keep your teeth.
- [08:50]
B
Yeah, like it.
- [08:51]
A
I went to treatment with some guys that like lost all their teeth.
- [08:54]
B
Right. So I don't have any back molars, so.
- [08:57]
A
You don't.
- [08:58]
B
I lost, I lost a couple of them. Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:01]
A
Your dad finds you after you run away.
- [09:03]
B
Right.
- [09:03]
A
You know, from there ensues even more chaos. You think like, okay, now you're going to get into the solution. And it just seems like you get put in one bad situation after the next.
- [09:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, so they, they didn't really know what to do. Options were pretty limited back in the early 90s, you know, I mean, we didn't, I mean that was kind of even before the Internet, you know, stuff like that. So they hired an educational consultant who basically is like, oh, we have these wilderness programs we can send them to. And they're like, okay. So they shipped me off to Utah and essentially there was like, I think nine or ten of us kids and we were all in various forms of drug abuse or, you know, behavioral issues. And they like basically dumped us into the middle of Utah and then just started hiking us.
- [09:56]
A
Yeah. So like a physical scared straight situation.
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, but we're all coming down off. I mean, I remember there was a girl coming down off cocaine. She was like a rich girl from la. I'm coming down off meth. You know, other people are coming down off other drugs, so we're all just a mess. Emotionally crying. And I remember the girl just sat down and like refused to hike for like three hours. And we just had to sit there and like, you know, and we're all like, come on, let's go. Like, you know, and then everyone starts yelling at everybody. It was a lot of drama, but yeah, it was Pretty. It was pretty rough there in the beginning. I talk about it in the book. But essentially, the first day that hiked us all night with no food.
- [10:35]
A
Right. This starvation. Yeah.
- [10:37]
B
Just like. And then at the end of the night, they gave us a banana, and we all just like. I ate the whole thing. Yeah, like, everything. And then I ate other kids. I was starving. And that was kind of like how they introduced us to this program.
- [10:51]
A
But little did you know that this was your first kind of touch point with endurance. It's sort of an inciting incident that, you know, becomes salient many years later, you know. But this is, like, your introduction to the world of voluntary suffering, right?
- [11:08]
B
Yeah. I mean, for sure. There's a lot of, like, parallels. And looking back, I mean, now I've done the Moab 240 multiple times, and, you know, I'm out there suffering in Utah, like, hiking around, doing all the running and stuff, and I'm like, oh, look at. Look at me 30 years later, like, doing this because I want to do it, not because I've been forced to do it.
- [11:27]
A
And this idea that. That pain can have a positive purpose.
- [11:31]
B
Yeah. I think the most important thing is they had a therapist that would come out, like, once a week and talk to us. And that was the first point in my life where somebody made the connection in my brain where they're like, you're doing drugs because you're upset. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm doing drugs because they're fun. Like, no, like, you're upset about your dad. You know, you're a teenager. You're going through your teenage stuff, and you're doing these things to cope with whatever's going on in your life. And I had never thought about that. I never made that connection. There's no point where I'm like, oh, I'm upset. I'm gonna smoke weed. I was just upset and then smoked weed, but never had the emotional maturity or emotional intelligence to, like, make that connection myself. So that was, like, my first sort of introduction to. Wow. I'm using this stuff to mask, you know, what's really going on. I need to deal with what's really going on so that I don't have these issues later on and try to run from them again.
- [12:31]
A
So you come out of that experience, and then you get put in this crazy boarding school.
- [12:36]
B
Yeah. So I thought everything was good. Like, I had done really well, did a lot of work. All my, you know, counselors and everything were like, andy is great. But then that educational Consultant came back, and they're like, he probably shouldn't go home. It's only been three months. Like, he'll probably get mixed up with those same people again. Everybody else in my whole group got to go home. And. And my parents came. They're like, we're taking you to Massachusetts. And I'm like, you know, I. I'd maybe been to the east coast one time. Like, my. What do you mean, Massachusetts? You know, and they flew me to Massachusetts and took me to this boarding school in a. In a giant castle, like a real castle in the Berkshires, which is, like, western Massachusetts. Yeah. It was considered a therapeutic boarding school. They. They went with this philosophy. It's called daytop, which you'll have to, like, you know, listeners or viewers will have to Google it. But that was sort of the. The philosophy of the school, and it was kind of based on positive peer pressure, no medication. And on the. On the surface, it looked really like a great place because the. The philosophy was they were taking very intelligent kids, gifted kids that were really messed up, and then getting them into really, really good universities. Like, you know, one of the guys I went to school with, you know, 1600s on all his SATs went to Colombia. Like, and so they would take us, and that kid was, like, really strung out on drugs when he first got there. 14 years old, 15 years old, whatever. But, like, was able to turn it around and get 1600s on his SATs and then get into Colombia. So it was like, it was a school that, on the surface, looked great. Like, hey, my kid's messed up. He's. He's intelligent. I'm going to send him there. And then at the end result is he'll get into a good college and graduate high school, because a lot of us when we got there were, like, you know, dropped out of high school or, like, you know, and it did do that for a lot of. A lot of kids. I mean, a lot of kids did.
- [14:41]
A
I mean, let's just call it what it is. I mean, this place. All right. The John Dewey Academy.
- [14:46]
B
Yes.
- [14:46]
A
Yes. To me, you know, what it sounds like is they. They had a very aggressive form of therapy and would create these group therapy sessions that were very confrontational, where they were weaponizing fear and shame to, like, you know, if you interpret it charitably, to, like, root out, like, whatever is bothering you, but, you know, that's a pretty violent way to go about it that, you know, yes, it can go one way and this kid gets into Columbia, but it can cut in another direction.
- [15:19]
B
A lot of kids did not make it. Yeah, a lot of kids got kicked out or ran away or whatever. Went on to somewhere else. And then it was also like there was aspects of it that were really off. Like I remember we had a, we had a kid there who was gay and they decided they were going to be able to make him not gay, you know, and did all these weird things. Were conversion therapy. Yeah, conversion therapy. They made him like wear a pink crown and all these different things. And it was just, it was like. It was total emotional torture. And we're all in the thick of our own drama, but then like having to experience other kids also getting tortured, you know, and it's kind of.
- [15:59]
A
That's horrible. I mean, you're already ashamed.
- [16:01]
B
Yeah, I'm already.
- [16:03]
A
It's like you don't need more of that.
- [16:04]
B
Yeah. So it's like I'm getting, you know, and then you're like in group sessions and you're just hearing the most horrific things that these people have done or you know, seen or whatever and, or experienced. Which I think a lot of that should just be like one on one type stuff. Like I don't need to hear about your deepest, darkest, most horrible things.
- [16:24]
A
But in the right environment, like shame doesn't survive the light. And if you can, you can have a cathartic experience if you feel safe enough to share something like that in a group setting, if it is well received. But if you're being shamed or made to feel. Yeah. Attacked, that is only going to strengthen that, that shame response.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah. Well, I mean, it was, I mean I could, I have stories like we had a kid who's mom killed his dad and he was like a real famous guy and they made a Lifetime movie about him. And like I, the, the headmaster made him watch the Lifetime movie with all of us, you know, and then I mean, just, just that feels abusive. It was quite, quite abusive. And then you know, I talk about in the book, but like he was then accused of some, you know, stuff with females that were going there and somehow got out of it. But you know, I don't know if he was really innocent. Master. There was like this, there's some stuff online.
- [17:23]
A
I mean, this school still exists, right?
- [17:26]
B
It does, but I, I don't. It does. It's not at the castle anymore and it's kind of. I'm. I mean, I'm sure it's like morphed and become something completely different, but.
- [17:35]
A
And then there was this Spanish teacher.
- [17:37]
B
Yeah. So I mean we, we all hold like Things that are very difficult to talk about and deal with. And, you know, I. You know, one of the things that happened to me was I was essentially groomed by an older, you know, teacher. We were not. We were not allowed to date while we were there. You know, female contact was limited. You know, we could be friends, but, you know, it was. It was very segregated and whatnot when it came to that sort of stuff. We weren't allowed to, like, watch TV or have, you know, anything. Anything like that. And so I had this. This older teacher that was there kind of start inviting me over to her apartment, letting me watch tv, letting me watch movies, kind of like becoming my friend. And, I mean, I. I don't think there's any other word but grooming. You know, I was, you know, quite young, 16, 17 years old, and it turned into, like, a sexual relationship, which then, you know, definitely made things very different while I was there. And then, you know, I left the school and. And she continued to do it with other students.
- [18:50]
A
Wow.
- [18:50]
B
And I think, you know, she did it with students before me, too. But it's. You know, we didn't. We were all so secretive. And so, like, if I were to, like, have reported it, I would have then gotten attacked. And so I was, like, scared to talk about it. I didn't. I mean, I didn't tell my parents about it till way later when I was older. I didn't. I mean, I didn't tell anybody about. And I always felt this, like, really intense sense of guilt because, you know, after I left, I was like, you should say something, Andy. You should report this. This is, like, not okay. And then she ended up getting, like, pregnant by one of the other kids.
- [19:26]
A
Wow.
- [19:26]
B
And then, you know, had the baby. And, you know, then I. Then I felt super guilty because I'm like, man, I could have prevented this, but I didn't. And then I still. I mean, I really have never said anything about it till I wrote my book and I put it in my book. But beyond that, like, I mean, now it's been 30 years, but yeah, it's. And I have no idea whatever happened to her after that point. But obviously, she didn't continue to work for the school.
- [19:53]
A
Did you stay sober through that high school experience?
- [19:56]
B
I did. So I. I didn't do any drugs or alcohol through high school or through that high school experience. And then my dad told me he would pay for college if I stayed sober. And I felt like that was a good deal because college is quite expensive. And so I actually stayed sober through College as well. And then as soon as college was over, I was like, all right, I'm good. I'm gonna start drinking again.
- [20:22]
A
Yeah. I mean, you're undergoing this intense experience in high school, presumably for purposes of, like, healing and actually just making it worse or giving you kind of emotional baggage that's going to lead you back to drinking and using.
- [20:38]
B
Well, and I. And I think too, like, when you're. When you're confronted like that and you're being yelled at and all this stuff, like, you learn to survive. And sometimes learning to survive is just like, making stuff up so that, like, you know, you the. The camera or not the camera, but the, like, the attack will get off of you. And so you. You end up, like, kind of like, faking who you are and like, creating like, a different Persona and just. Just to survive, you know, like, if the sharks want blood, you give them blood and then they'll leave you alone, you know, and sometimes, you know, that's. And that's not a good way to develop as a, you know, 16, 17 year old person. Right. Like, you don't want to, like, develop those skill sets where, yeah, you become a chameleon.
- [21:21]
A
You know, how to put on the right mask for the right situation. Exactly. Feign submission when you need to or to just get by, you know, Meanwhile, you're just calcifying that, like, armor, you know, and that's putting distance between yourself and, like, who you are because you just. All, you know, is survival. And in order to survive, you have to be this kind of person in this situation and this kind of person in that situation.
- [21:44]
B
And you don't learn how to stand up for yourself. You don't learn how to, you know, have principles that you will stand on, you know, because your principles might be threatened or, like, attacked, and then, you know, you don't want to. You don't want to have that. So it's. Yeah, it was just a very challenge. And then, you know, you. You become close with other people and then they get attacked and maybe they get kicked out, and then you never find out what happens to them. So, you know, I lost a lot of friendships in there that I was, like, friends with them, and then they left, and I still to this day never know whatever happened to them.
- [22:22]
A
Then you go to Skidmore, like, great liberal arts college in upstate New York. Lots of freedom.
- [22:28]
B
Yes.
- [22:29]
A
Your dad's paying for it, provided you stay sober. But no one's really watching you.
- [22:35]
B
Yeah, it's true. I mean, nobody was watching me, but I mean, I Didn't. I was still very scared of, like, doing drugs. Like, I sort of. That, like, scared straightness that. That had been institutionalized in me in that place.
- [22:51]
A
And you went from the kid who ran away to now you're at Skidmore.
- [22:55]
B
I was. Well, and. And I. I was just so scared that if I drank, then I would smoke weed, and if I smoked weed, it would lead to, like, something else that would lead to crystal meth, and then I'd be, like, back where I was. And so that fear just kept me sober because I was just so scared of, like, going back to being the kid that I was.
- [23:17]
A
You talk a lot about PTSD and your kind of relationship with it in different contexts, but I haven't heard you talk about the ptsd, of just surviving institutionalization, just knowing, hey, I went so far off the path, off the radar, that I ended up having to go to this Utah situation and this crazy school and surviving all of that, like, that has its own, you know, kind of. That casts a long shadow. And I would imagine just throughout college, you're like, can't go back to that. Like, you know, if I touch any of this stuff, like, it's going to take me right back to, you know, Utah wilderness camp.
- [24:00]
B
I mean, I definitely had some. Some emotional, like, responses, you know, for a long time. I think just over time, that just kind of numbed out. I don't know if it was when I started working out and exercising, if that, like, sort of helped move me past that. But I think also, like, I did start using again after college. I was like, you know, you go through that rationalization where you're like, I was young.
- [24:27]
A
I'm so young. I can handle it.
- [24:30]
B
I can handle it. You know, I'm. You know, I had a job, I was success. I was adult. You know, my. My dad's not telling me I can't do it anymore, and, you know, started drinking and smoking weed again. And I definitely probably did it more than I should have, but I was able to sort of still maintain.
- [24:49]
A
Yeah, you were high functioning.
- [24:50]
B
Yeah, high functioning, but, like, I have, like, a intense fire inside that burns. And, I mean, I think that's what allows me to do all this crazy stuff, but it just numbed that, you know, so I was high functioning, but, like, it was limiting my ability to, like, do anything meaningful. And it was like that for a long time. Like, at least probably five years. I just smoked weed and drank and, like, you know, continued on with my life. And, you know, I was in sort of corporate America, working at like with computers. I'd always been really good at computers and that's what I leaned into after college. And yeah, I mean, I wasn't unhappy, but I wasn't happy, you know, but my body was unhappy. And so my body started to like, revolt. I started getting like all this anxiety and depression and I'm like, what's going on? What are these feelings that I'm experiencing? Like, because I hadn't felt like, well, I mean, one, because you're sober, you know, and so you're not masking things when you're sober. But then when you, when you lose that sobriety and start using again, very easy to mask feelings. Sure. And some of those feelings are probably like, I wasn't living up to my potential. I knew I wasn't. You know, you start. I was in a marriage, but it wasn't like this great marriage where I was like super excited to be married. And I started to like, feel like I was going to die. I was having panic attacks, I was having chest pain, shortness of breath, all these sort of physical reactions to my emotional state. And again, I didn't. There's. This is before the Internet, before WebMD, before you could like, hey, what's going on with me? I'm 20 something years old and I'm having these chest pains and shortness of breath. And I eventually got to a point where I passed out because I was having such a bad panic attack. I started hyperventilating and passed out. I was talking to my buddy. I have a friend who I've known since kindergarten. He's still one of my best friends. And so I called him and I was telling him all this stuff and, and he goes, man, you need to start working out. And I was like, what do you mean I need to start working out? He goes, yeah, it sounds like, sounds like you need to start doing some exercise. And I had, you know, again, never thought about that. You know, here I'm 20 something years old, don't work out at all, smoke weed, drink alcohol and just work on a computer all day. I ended up getting a personal trainer. They showed me some exercises, got me on an elliptical trainer, started, you know, doing the elliptical trainer. It felt pretty good. You know, I started to alleviate those anxious feelings. I mean, I was still probably a little depressed, but like, the anxiety started to kind of alleviate and so I started leaning in a little bit more like, well, if this is going to make me feel better, then I'm going to do more of it. How do I, how do I learn more about this exercise stuff as an adult and I ended up, I was living in Portland, Oregon at the time and we have a very robust like community college network up there. And so I took a community college class on exercise science and I had to run a mile and a half to like start the class and then end the class. That was like part of the grading. They wanted to see improvement. And that was my first time running since like, you know, I was a little kid. Yeah, I never quit after that. I just kept moving and kept lifting and everything. I mean, I've done everything endurance wise, from triathlons to tough mudders to, you know, marathons and half marathons and ultra running and everything. Every flavor because it's all fun. But that was the intro to it, right?
- [28:42]
A
Some days are just better than others. Sometimes you eat well but sleep poorly, or maybe you sleep great but confusingly end up foggy brained. Then every once in a while, everything is just right. And what Whoop does is help turn those dialed in days from occasional into frequent. Because it's the wearable health and fitness coach that provides you with personalized insights into your sleep and your recovery and your strain and overall health so you can actually see how your habits are shaping how you feel. WHOOP helps me spot patterns so I can make adjustments in real time to my training, of course, but also to my work schedule, to what I eat and when I eat, what time I go to bed and what time I wake up. This is why WHOOP has been affixed to my left wrist right here from for six and a half years straight. Because it just retires the need to guess and allows me to make decisions with more intention. As you can probably tell, I am very bullish on Woo. But hey, listen, look into it for yourself. For more info and to sign up go to join.whoop.com roll for one month free of Whoop. This episode is brought to you by Mill, which I gotta tell you, really is my new favorite addition to our home. An innovation in technology that's wrapped in a modern appliance that has literally changed how my family lives. And I'm telling you, this is not hyperbole. Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler. Potato peels, leftovers, even things like avocado pits. It takes almost anything and overnight it quietly turns out all of that into dry, nutrient rich grounds, making it easier for our garden to thrive without really doing anything other than adding our scraps to this gorgeous device every evening and letting it do Its thing seamlessly, quietly doing good with what would have ended up in the garbage or down the drain. It's one of those upgrades that doesn't call attention to itself, but once it's there, you don't want to go back. And I for one am not going to. And now you can try it. Try mill risk free for 90 days and get $75 off@mill.com richroll and use the code rich roll. That's $75 off@mill.com Rich roll and use code rich roll. You know, your story is one that really illustrates the idea that like sobriety is not a linear thing. You know, it's like you've had all these fits and starts and you've been sober and not sober and have been high functioning while using. And I think that's really the more typical story with people who eventually find their way towards long term sobriety.
- [31:35]
B
Yeah, well. And I mean, when I first started going to the gym, I would.
- [31:38]
A
You were still using?
- [31:39]
B
Yeah, Carrot. I would go, all right, we're not going to smoke weed. Right when we wake up, we're going, we're gonna go to the gym, we're
- [31:47]
A
gonna lift, delay it until go for a run.
- [31:50]
B
Then we'll smoke, go eat lunch, you know, and, and you know, have a nice. Have rest of your day. So it was like in the beginning, it was like delayed gratification of the, of the drugs and then that became, you know, wider and wider and wider. But yeah, I was. Yeah.
- [32:06]
A
So you have these two incompatible things. It's like growing interest in like fitness and running, et cetera. And then, you know, quietly on the other side, like you're continu. Use.
- [32:17]
B
Right. And I did that for, you know, a couple years and then I ended up getting divorced.
- [32:22]
A
Well, it's more than that. I mean, there were like three crazy things that happened in a 24 hour
- [32:27]
B
period which you're talking about like getting hit by a car. That whole. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I got hit by a car and almost died. I mean, I, you know, ride.
- [32:37]
A
You were riding your bike?
- [32:38]
B
Yeah, I was riding my bike. And you know, now I'm a paramedic. And so like, I know a lot about trauma and just how dangerous that situation was. And of course, like, I didn't go to a doctor. I didn't, you know, I woke up, I had missing teeth, I was on the side of the road, my bike's mangled, I'd been hit from behind and they just left me. So like a hit and run?
- [33:00]
A
Yeah, it landed on your head?
- [33:01]
B
Yeah, I don't, I mean, I, I think I, I face planted because I, I, I knocked out a couple of my front teeth or though, you know, I could have hit the actual handlebars. I'm not really sure what exactly went, went down, but because I have no memory of it, which is like concussion and you know, all the, you know, traumatic brain injury type stuff. And so then I had to have all this emergency dental work. Luckily didn't have any broken bones, but like, was bruised and you know, maybe I'd broken some ribs, but nothing that needed like a cast or anything like that. And yeah, and then my wife decided that was a good time to let me know that, that she was going to leave me. And so. Yeah, so then I had to like transition into. Okay. Like, I mean, it's, we had grown apart, so it wasn't like this huge. Like, I wasn't not expecting it, but I guess the timing just was like kind of bad.
- [33:57]
A
You know, in the aftermath of that bike accident, you're basically self medicating with weed.
- [34:02]
B
All right.
- [34:02]
A
And your wife's like, I'm done with this.
- [34:03]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was, I leaned into it hard.
- [34:06]
A
Yeah. Then your grandfather passes away.
- [34:09]
B
Yes, yes. And so I went back to California and went to his funeral. And at that point I was like, I need to do something with my life that is not what I'm doing. I need to do like a, a hard pivot, a hard shift. I started taking some fire classes and, and EMT classes and, and I liked him. And so I kind of leaned into becoming a firefighter, emt. And that led to me being a firefighter paramedic. But it was that funeral with my grandpa that really changed my perspective on where I wanted to go with my life.
- [34:49]
A
I mean, do you call this like a rock bottom moment? I mean, it is like a, you know, kind of a flashpoint that changes everything, I think trajectory.
- [34:58]
B
The rock, the rock bottom moment kind of was. I was lying in bed, my wife came in and told me she was leaving me. You know, I had like, my, my teeth were all messed up, I'm sore, I'm, you know, and she left and I smoked a big joint and got super high and then immediately had like a panic attack, just like I did years before I started working out. And I was like, oh my God, I never want to feel like this again. And that was the last time I've smoked weed or done any illicit drugs, you know.
- [35:37]
A
What is your definition of, of rock bottom?
- [35:40]
B
For me, at that moment, that was like a rock bottom moment as an adult. You know, I had rock bott bottom moments when I was a kid. Obviously, like running away, getting found all methed out, like, that was a rock bottom moment. But as an adult, when you're, you know, you're extremely injured, your wife's leaving you, then you smoke weed and you feel the same way you did years earlier, even after all this growth and, like, trying to, like, make things better, and you're right back to that point. I mean, that was a rock bottom moment. And that's where I was like, I don't want to feel like this anymore. Not doing this ever again. I'm going in a different direction. And then the thing with my grandfather happened, which this pushed me even further in that, you know, different direction. So I think, you know, whether you want to call it rock bottom or the springboard that I jumped off of and continued to move upward, that. That was. That was definitely it.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah. I think rock bottoms are when the pain of your circumstances exceeds your fear of doing something different.
- [36:43]
B
Yeah.
- [36:44]
A
And these events or circumstances in which you think, like, it couldn't get any worse, like, this is. This is like my lowest moment in retrospect, often turn into being like these springboards, to use your word. Like these catalysts for reimagining and rebuilding your life. Like, everything that happens is neutral until you apply your perspective. And if the perspective you apply to it is like, oh, this is an opportunity for change and transformation, and then you put on your smile hat and adopt the Andy glaze. Positive affect, then it could end up being like, the best thing that. That ever happened to you, Right?
- [37:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, I. I don't hate that it happened to me because I think now I'm able to live to my, like, full potential and I'm a lot happier.
- [37:37]
A
How did the ultra thing kind of come?
- [37:39]
B
The thing is, I didn't. I didn't even know about ultras or any of that stuff until I was, like, in my mid-30s. I didn't know anything about any of it. And I went down that rabbit hole, and that's how I got into Ultra. I said, you signed up for 50K?
- [37:55]
A
The dopamine.
- [37:55]
B
Yeah.
- [37:57]
A
Is like, what is the deal with people, like, sober people, like recovering addicts and alcoholics and ultras?
- [38:05]
B
There's.
- [38:06]
A
There's a lot of us, like, what is your. Do you have, like, a theory of mind about that? Like, disproportionately high?
- [38:13]
B
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a lot of people with, like, you know, significant trauma in their lives that then go on and, like, want to continue to do hard things. I mean, one, it's like, if you're going to do anything, to an extreme, our personalities tend to, like, push us in that direction. But voluntary suffering, you know, it's like you're putting yourself into a situation that you're. You're suffering, but you always have the ability to tap out if you want to, is something that we can't do in real life, that we could never do when we were, like, in the addiction, like, phase of our lives. And so it's like, it's a safe way to really push ourselves without, like, huge consequences. Because at the end of the day, you can quit. You can't quit if you're, like, in life and all these horrible things are happening to you.
- [39:08]
A
So what do you say to the person? I'm sure people have come up to you and said, well, you've just traded one addiction for another, like weed, crystal meth. Now it's just running.
- [39:19]
B
I think that, like, you know, a lot of my running is because I love to run. I don't know if I love to do drugs. I love the feeling that drugs gave me, but I don't know if I, like, love to do drugs, but I love to run and I love to be in nature and I love to be surrounded by, you know, trails and, and all these things. I don't. You know, drugs gave me a feeling that I liked, and it gave me an escape that I enjoyed. But I don't think I loved. Loved them. I mean, I was addicted to them for sure, and I'm obviously still addicted to them if I. If I ever went down that rabbit hole again. But the. It's. I think it's. It's different because I truly just love to run. And so, yeah, I'm sure my addictive personality, I mean, anything I do in life, though, it's like running, you know, spending time with my family. I'm like, I. I'm a beekeeper. Like, all these little things. Like, I. I have a huge garden, I have a grove. Anything I do, I do. Like, on an addictive level, you found
- [40:28]
A
healthier outlets for your addictive tendencies. But I think it's like, you know, I asked this question to lots of people who are in recovery who do ultras and stuff like that, and it's almost like a litmus test, because if they just deny their addictive relationship with it, like, there's something dishonest going on. Like, clearly the fact that so many People in recovery gravitate towards this world. There's something going on there. And I think that if you're really being honest, it's like, yeah, it satisfies some kind of addictive craving that I have inside me. You know, it's a worthy investment because it's, it's in the interest of my personal growth and it makes me a better person and it's a journey of self discovery. And there's all these good reasons, but that doesn't mean that it absolves you from having like an obsessive, compulsive relationship with it.
- [41:17]
B
I have an obsessive compulsive relationship with like anything I do.
- [41:21]
A
Anything that I can be, anything I
- [41:23]
B
like it like, like sugar, you know, like, I, I have to like, refrain from eating sugar because I just love it so much. I would eat candy, ice cream, everything vegan ice cream. But, you know, like.
- [41:36]
A
Yeah, but there's no, there's no like sort of relationship with sugar. That's about becoming a better person.
- [41:42]
B
Right.
- [41:42]
A
You know what I mean? So with running, you could insert anything else. Bow hunting or whatever.
- [41:47]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:48]
A
Are you using it to run towards something or are you using it to run away from something? Like, all these pursuits can be distractions from some other discomfort. And because running, especially at such long distances is so painful, you have to sustain a degree of discomfort for such an incredibly long period of time. It can be an effective way to like, mask whatever other discomfort you really don't want to deal with. Or it can be a way of confronting that so that you can heal it and become more whole.
- [42:19]
B
You brought up earlier, like, I do suffer from ptsd, mostly from my job, you know, just from years and years of seeing the most horrific things you can possibly imagine from being a paramedic. Yeah. You know, in the last five years, I've really had like pretty bad symptoms and stuff. And I've been able to utilize the ultra running, especially the long distance ultra running, as a way to quiet the symptoms of the ptsd. I think probably because it overrides the nervous system. When you're 80 miles into an ultra, your nervous system kind of gives up and you just kind of go into that survival mode where you're like a lizard brain. You're like, I need to eat, I need to drink, I need to keep moving forward and you don't really think about anything else. And that has been very, like, beneficial for my ptsd, like being able to like, manage it. The problem is that, that in the last few months, it has Stopped, like, working. And so I'm kind of in, like, a weird spot where I've always used running as a way to, like, deal with this sort of, you know, emotional trauma that I have that I don't have control over. And now it's not working the same way that it's worked for years. And so, you know, I've started going to a therapist, and I'm trying to get to the point where you do, like, it's called emdr. We're doing, like, CPT right now, which. Just these ways to help, like, reprogram the brain for these traumatic moments that. Yeah, it's like, it's almost like the brain can't recognize that certain memories are in the past. And, and so you have to, like, you have to figure out how to, like, get those memories in the past. And, you know, I'm not a therapist, but, you know, there's, there's, there's very proven techniques, and I've talked to a lot about it online, and I've had a lot of positive feedback from people that have said, like, EMDR is like, a really good thing. And so I'm sort of in this, like, thing. It kind of reminds me, and I don't want to, like, you know, trivialize your, your injury or your, your back surgery, but, like, I've used running as a way to deal with my trauma, and now I can't use it as a way to deal with it. And it's like, definitely a weird, weird place to be in, you know, because it's like I want to escape the PTSD symptoms, but I don't have the way to do it like I used to.
- [44:56]
A
Yeah.
- [44:56]
B
Does that make sense?
- [44:57]
A
Yeah. It seems to me like you found your way into running, and running was so effective at helping you manage your mental health.
- [45:08]
B
Yeah.
- [45:09]
A
And it was almost like this epiphany, like, oh, my God, like, this is what I've been looking for all along that's been missing in my life and doubling down, doubling down, doubling down, and then realizing that it's really just helping you manage it, manage the symptoms. You know, like, there's, there's the underlying root of all of this that's still sitting there. And at some point you develop a tolerance, you know, and it's like, yeah, okay, now I have to go from 50k to 50 miles to 100 miles to 250 miles to 300 miles. I'm doing 100 mile weeks for 300 weeks in a row.
- [45:44]
B
Yes.
- [45:44]
A
And your trauma, or the root of that is now so acclimated to that, like, that's your. That's your resting state now.
- [45:52]
B
Yeah.
- [45:53]
A
And until you go deeper and begin to untie the knot, like, the actual source of all of this, it's not. It's not surprising. And, like, I'm not a mental health professional. I don't mean to, like, armchair psychologize any of this, but, you know, it makes. It makes sense. And again, I think this is, like, you know, you got very emotional a moment ago. Like, this is a beautiful opportunity, you know, like, what a gift. Now you can go deeper and get to the source of this and really heal it rather than go to such great lengths to just mask it or manage it.
- [46:29]
B
Well, and I'm. You know, I mean, the trauma stacks, right? So I'm. I'm. You know, that's the hard part is, like, it was probably manageable, but, like, the more that stacks on top, it just eventually becomes a pile that just tips over. Right. And firefighters, police officers, military, whatever. Like, they just are exposed to stuff on a daily basis over and over and over again. And. And if they don't deal with it, like, right now, we have, like, a huge, like, suicide problem with. With. With firefighters. And we don't talk about it because, you know, we don't. I don't. I don't know why we don't talk about it, but we don't. And I'm hoping that by me being honest and talking about it on my platforms and whatnot, that I'm helping, like, sort of break that stigma. Like, hey, you know, we. We got to go get help. We can't just. You can't just mask it, and un. A lot of firefighters and police mask it with drugs and alcohol, you know, and so it's just not a good combo. It's a weird thing because I feel. I feel, like, weak talking about it. Even though it's like, I'm telling people, like, hey, we got to break the stigma. I still feel weak having to, like, get emotional about the fact that I have something. I literally have something wrong with my brain. That's. That's the way I look at it, you know, and it's like. Like, it's frustrating not being able to control, you know that.
- [47:54]
A
Yeah.
- [47:55]
B
That part of your brain where you're like, why. Why can't you just be normal? You know? Like, I have a great life, you know, and things are going so great, and then, like, my brain won't let me just be normal.
- [48:15]
A
Here on the pod. Optimizing our lives is something that comes up a lot. How to hone our habits, our routines, our health. But what's wild is my car is doing that too. Because a Rivian is essentially the most powerful computer you'll probably ever own. Constantly learning, adapting, improving. And the crazy part is you barely notice it. The system is taking in information from cameras and sensors, making real time decisions to help keep everything smooth and safe. The navigation doesn't just give directions, it's thinking ahead, factoring in elevation, battery usage, and when and where to charge. And then there's the regular updates. You plug it in at night and wake up to a vehicle that's literally more capable than it was the day before. It's advanced, but it doesn't feel complicated. It just works. And it lets you focus on what actually matters. The Dream Drive. Visit any rivian space or rivian.com to learn more. This episode is sponsored by Better Help May is Mental Health Awareness Month. Honestly, in my opinion, every month should be focused on our mental health. But it is a good reminder, kind of a call to action, that whatever you're carrying, you don't have to carry it alone. For whatever reason, we feel like we have to keep keep quiet about what it is that we're going through. And everybody is going through something all the time. But suffering in silence is nonsense. Whatever shame prevents you from raising your hand, I promise you that shame can't survive the light. Meaning that when you summon the courage to ask for help, you're already on your way to resolving what troubles you do. What I started doing 30 years ago and still do to this day, and get yourself some therapy. You can start today with BetterHelp, which will connect you with fully licensed therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct. They match you with someone based on what you're looking for, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime, no problem. With over 30,000 therapists and millions of people served, it's a way to have support when you need it. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com that's better. H lp.com richroll. What was the decision to share this stuff publicly? It's one thing to say I want to try these ultras and get into this world. It's another thing to take people along with you.
- [50:50]
B
I've always kind of like filming my life, but I never really had the ability to edit it. You know, like you'd have a GoPro and when I first started doing my ultras, I'd like film myself, but then I didn't have a computer that could like edit the GoPro footage because GoPro would make, you know, it was just, I'd have to buy like a $6,000 computer in order to edit, you know, a hundred dollar GoPro. And then when Reels and TikTok came out, it allowed me to edit videos on my phone, like with, you know, no barrier to entry. So I just started making videos and they, they like went viral and it
- [51:31]
A
was like from the get go. I mean, there was the one where you were like, I'm gonna run 100 miles, come with me kind of thing that went nuts right on TikTok.
- [51:38]
B
But yeah, that was kind of, that was kind of the beginning of TikTok. I mean, the first reel I ever made got 70,000 views. And I was like, what is going on? Like, you know, you don't. Back then, 70,000 views was like insane. So I kind of stumbled into it. I never, when I started, thought to myself, oh, I'm going to have all these followers or you know, this is like the future. If you had told me five years ago, like if we went back into a time machine and said, hey Andy, you're going to have millions of followers and all this stuff, I would have been like, what are you talking about, millions of followers? Like I have a thousand followers. Like they're all friends and family and people I went to college with, you know.
- [52:17]
A
So what is your sense of why what you were sharing connected with people?
- [52:24]
B
Well, it started just like the, the humors of running. I mean, there's so many funny aspects of being a runner, you know, and there's so many runners. And then I think it got into. Nobody had ever like really shown the nitty gritty aspects of running a hundred mile race. You see these beautiful movies that people make on YouTube and you know, they're polished and yeah, you know, there'd be like, you know, some stuff, but it was just beautiful. It was like watching a movie and then all of a sudden I'm showing like all this like kind of lo fi footage and talking about hallucinating and doing all this stuff and nobody had ever really seen or heard about that before. And like I said, those platforms just made it so easy to share and consume it. And you know, once you start getting millions of people watching your stuff, it's. It's just like, it's a game changer.
- [53:18]
A
Where does the smile or you're doing it wrong mantra come from?
- [53:24]
B
So you know what Strava is?
- [53:26]
A
Yeah.
- [53:26]
B
Okay, so Strava has come on, dude, Well, I mean, Strava's nap. And there's the segment, right? You could, like, make a segment. And there's a trail by my house called. You're either smiling or you're crying. And it's like, I love running it. And one day I was running it, and I was like, who would be crying on this? This is, like, amazing. And I, like, in my head, said something like, if. If somebody's not smiling, they're like, they're doing it wrong. And I said it to my friend, and then it just. I mean, this is probably 10 years ago I started just saying it, putting it in my Instagram. This is back when there was just pictures and no videos or anything. And it. It just sort of. It blossomed from there into, like, a whole life philosophy. But it really was just the idea that, yeah, like, this trail, right? If you're running up it, I. I guess you could be crying, and if you're running down it, you could be smiling. But either way, you're still running. You're still, like, out in nature, and you're on this beautiful trail. So again, it was just that, like, mental. Like, you really should be smiling in a situation like this.
- [54:34]
A
And what is the life philosophy, then?
- [54:36]
B
Well, just, you know, always looking for the positive, you know, aspects of life and also trying to. To reach other people. Because a smile, if you're smiling by yourself, that's great. But if you smile at somebody else, a lot of times they'll smile back at you, which, you know, will give them a chemical reaction in their brain, and maybe that will help them, you know, like, when you smile, you have, like, a chemical reaction in your brain. So if I smile at you and you smile back, you know, maybe you're at a horrible point in the race or you're at a horrible point in life, but that smile might be the thing that just changes your brain chemistry just enough to get you into a different direction. That springboard, right. I know it sounds very minimal and small, but, like, I've seen it work, and I. And people have done it to me, and it's worked.
- [55:28]
A
So I want to talk about change and transformation. What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned about the potential that we all have to change our lives, to transform our lives that. That you've learned from your life experiences and from all of these ultra running races that you've done?
- [55:52]
B
I think it's my acknowledgment that, like, it's. It's. It's a good thing to fail I. When I was younger, I definitely did not see the value in failure and I was embarrassed by it. And I was like, scared that people would make fun of me or, or you know, people would talk poorly behind my back if I failed. And now it's a recognition that in order to succeed I have to do things that have a high chance of failure. And so if I do fail, then that's okay, but I have to then take that failure and like, figure out what went wrong and then try to fix it. You know, I've done that in ultras. I do it in life. I taught, you know, I have a lot of DNFs and races that I didn't, that I wasn't successful in. And then I think a lot of times people like, are so scared that they're gonna fail that they don't do it and that that's everything in life. But ultra's really helped me with that because I fail so much in ultras. It's so hard, right? And there's so many things that can go wrong that it's helped me like, bring that into my, my normal life of like, it's okay.
- [57:08]
A
So when you get an email from somebody or a DM or a text from somebody who saw some of your content and they say to you, as I'm sure they do, you're so inspiring. I wish I could do what you do. I want to be better. I want to be. I want to get off drugs or I want to, you know, enter a race. Yeah, but insert xyz. How do you respond to that person?
- [57:34]
B
I mean, normally I just, I just tell them to like, you know, you gotta just, you gotta do one small thing a day. I, A lot of times go on like a tangent about doing 30 minutes a day and how it seems like nothing, but if you look at it over like a huge amount of time, that adds up to a lot. And sometimes that's when people are in those really dark moments and they feel like they can't get out. They just need like a small little light at the end of the tunnel to know that if they keep heading in this direction, they'll get there. And sometimes that's just 30 minutes of something, whatever it is. If they need to go for a walk for 30 minutes, if it's reading a book, whatever they need to do. But 30 minutes a day, everybody's got 30 minutes a day. I don't care how busy you are, you can find 30 minutes, 30 minutes in a month. I mean, how many hours is that Right. I mean, it's 15 hours times a year. You know, you're talking days. I think it's like five and a half days of doing something. And what I know is that if they do 30 minutes a day, that will end up being an hour a day, which will end up being an hour and a half a day. And, you know, it'll form a pattern and the consistency will build and build and build and they'll be able to get out of that hole. But that's normally what I do. I mean, if it's like really drugs and alcohol related, then I, you know, encourage them to like, find an AA meeting because I think, like, we've. We've had people at our department that have had issues and like, you know, I'm always, I think when you're in a dark hole, I think, you know, encouraging people to go to a meeting is always like a good way to start. You know, at least they can maybe find a sponsor or do something to help them pull themselves out, because they probably can't do it themselves. They're going to need that help. Those are probably the two, two main things I push.
- [59:33]
A
What year was it when you were first encouraged to go to the Gym?
- [59:38]
B
Probably like 2002, maybe.
- [59:43]
A
Right. So 24 years ago.
- [59:46]
B
Yeah.
- [59:48]
A
And I asked that, knowing that it was a long time ago, to kind of underscore like, these things don't happen overnight. I feel like people are in a. They see what you're doing and they want to be there right away. And they don't appreciate or understand that this is 24 years in the making. Right. And I think we would all benefit from a little dose of patience when it comes to this sort of thing. Like, when you went into that gym, it was probably something no more than 30 minutes the first time that you went in. And these things build upon each other and it's really a tortoise's race. You know, if you're playing the long game and you start to fall in love with movement, whatever that looks like, you'll go on some journey and maybe 24 years later, you're running 100 miles a week for the 300th odd week in a row. And you do that, you're writing books and on a podcast. But the point is, you know, in my life, like, I've never accomplished anything that I've accomplished was at least a decade in the making. And I think everybody is over indexing on what they can do in a period of a few months or maybe even a year, because we Just not, we're not wired to think in decades. But truly all of these things happen very slowly over time.
- [61:07]
B
I like setting lofty goals that are like really far away. You know, like decade goals or like 20 year goals, things like that. Because then you're always kind of focused on something, but it's also very far away. And then you have to like break it up and be like, all right, well that's a 20 year goal. But what's a one year goal that I can work on that will get me to that 20 years?
- [61:30]
A
The one year goal is this, the little step, right?
- [61:33]
B
But like, but far, far away. I'm like, I really want that, but in order to get that, I have to do all these steps. So let's just focus on the first step. But yeah, you're right. I mean I, I started with running that mile and a half. Now I run a lot, but like, even before I started doing ultras, I probably ran for, you know, 15 years before I started doing ultras. I wasn't running all that far. You know, half marathons, 10Ks, 5Ks, stuff like that. I mean I was just, just, just normal running.
- [62:05]
A
You didn't set a goal to run an ultra when you first walked into the gym. Like these, these things happen. They percolate out organically.
- [62:13]
B
Yeah.
- [62:13]
A
From what your curiosity is finding interesting, true or false transformation is available to everybody.
- [62:24]
B
It's always within your power. But like you said, it takes time. You have to be very patient and you can't rush it. I, I love to use the analogy about, you know, water through a stone. Right. It's like, does water go through a stone? Yes, it does. How does it do it? Very, very slowly. It just slowly goes over that stone and over 100 years, all of a sudden you have two stones. Right. I mean that's, that's really accomplishing most things in life. When you, when you try to rush it, it's not going to really work.
- [62:54]
A
And why is it it worth it, all the effort and the toil and the failure and the hardship and the suffering?
- [63:02]
B
Well, hopefully because the goal is going to make you or someone a better person. And you know, that would be, that would be the reward. I mean, most people don't set goals that are not a positive thing in their life. So if, like, if you work and work and work and reach that goal, then, you know, you're working towards either making yourself better or making something else better. You know, whether it's the world or your local community or your family or whatever it is, the Key is that you have to keep setting goals. You can't just like set a goal, get there and be like, all right, well we're done, I did it. You know, I mean, life is always about just improvement and change. So you just always have to be working on those two things.
- [63:49]
A
One of the things I appreciated the most about your book is that you couch personal transformation as an act of service. Like when you make that investment in yourself, you are positively impacting the people around you. So it takes it out of this self obsession paradigm that I think we see a lot of online. Like, it's just all about me and my routine and I'm going to get what I'm going to get, you know, for my own, you know, kind of, of ingratiation or whatever. And you're like, no, this is, this is not really about you. It's about how you can impact the people you care about and your community.
- [64:28]
B
Well, and I get a lot of messages obviously, like, hey, you inspire me. And that's great. My response normally is great, go inspire somebody else. You know, like, let's, let's pass it along, right? If I inspire you, then you go inspire somebody else, then they'll go inspire somebody else. And we'll have this, you know, ripple effect, butterfly effect, whatever you want to call it. And in the end, the world will be a better place, right? And it'll, it wherever it starts, it doesn't matter. Three people down the line will have never heard of me. That's great. I don't care. I just want them to, you know, get inspired and do something great with their lives.
- [65:05]
A
The most effective way to inspire other people is to up level your own though, right? Like, yeah, I mean, and you gotta like walk that talk. You can't just, just like pull a camera out and talk it. Like you actually have to do something.
- [65:16]
B
Yeah, well, and you know, I, I do do things.
- [65:19]
A
Yeah, no, you do. I'm just saying, like, you know, for, for other people out there, like, if you're just talking your talk but you're not doing it, it, it's a fool's errand, right? Like, and people, it's transparent. People see through that. Like you, you have to actually, you know, put in the work and then you then are like vibrating at a different like resonance, you know, and people can feel that. They know that.
- [65:43]
B
Well, I can, I mean, I can inspire more people because of what I'm doing. But like, say I inspire this guy over here and he goes, you know what, I'm going to train and Run a marathon. Okay. Now he's training and running a marathon, and he's going to, of course, talk about it, because we all, you know, hey, did you. Did you hear? I'm running a marathon? You know, maybe he inspires some people at work. Hey, you know what? I want to run a marathon, too. Maybe he's got kids at home and they're watching their dad doing hard work, and he doesn't know it, but in 10 years, when they're older, they're going to, like, remember that when they're, you know, that their dad was doing this. I mean, it just. You just don't know. It won't be as big as, like, my splash, but it might only be two people at work and maybe a random uncle that, you know follows him on Facebook. They're like, oh, wow, Joe's running a marathon. You know, maybe I will, too. And it's. It's still possible to make a small ripple, even if. If you're not doing as much. You know, I think the size of the ripple doesn't matter. It's. You know, it. It's. It's still. It's still going to move it on, and, like, people are still going to get inspired, even if it's smaller. You know, Maybe it's a 5K. Maybe. Maybe Joe's overweight and he's, like, trying to lose weight, and he's just going to run a 5K. It's going to be a big thing that can be really inspiring to people. Like, hey, if Joe can do a 5K, I can do a 5K. What am I doing? And, you know, Joe's 300 pounds, like, and he's out there training, like, you know, and maybe that's the ripple effect. You just. You just never know.
- [67:10]
A
Yeah. All right. One final banger before I release you back to your life. The magic of life lives between. I can't and I did.
- [67:21]
B
Yeah.
- [67:21]
A
What does that mean?
- [67:22]
B
I mean, you never know if you can do it until you try. A lot of times, everything seems impossible until somebody does it. Right? So it's like, I've done a lot of things where people would say, oh, that's. That's impossible. Nobody can do that. And. And then I do it, and then people are like, oh, maybe. Maybe I'll try that too. Maybe. Maybe that sounds like a good idea, you know, but until somebody does it, it's an impossible feat. So. Yeah.
- [67:52]
A
Which a perfect example of that might be what happened at the London Marathon this past weekend. Nobody's broken two hours in a Sanctioned mar.
- [68:00]
B
Ever.
- [68:01]
A
And then two guys do it in the same day. Can you imagine being somebody who runs 159 and gets second place? The idea that that barrier got broken, you know, in the same race by those two guys at the same time. I mean we, we all know like once Rod Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile barrier, then suddenly you know that once it was broken, other people did it. This illustrates your point. But the fact that you know two people in that race and you can. Super shoes. Yes. You know, Morton Gels or you know, you can deconstruct all of this. But like, honestly, until this past weekend it had never happened and now it has. And like now how many people are going to run under two hours?
- [68:42]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean the more we get like, like you said, the shoes, the, I mean all that plays a factor. The shoes, the nutrition, all that, you get that more and more dialed in and everything becomes, you know, know it's an engine. So yeah, if it can, if you can do it, somebody will figure out how to do it and emulate it and you replicate it. Next it'll be like, who's gonna be break155? You know, I mean, oh, that's impossible. And then someone will do that.
- [69:09]
A
So what's the barrier that you're looking to break next for yourself?
- [69:17]
B
Maybe like getting into Hard Rock. I'd love to, I'd love to do Hard Rock really, really bad. And, and try that race out. I have a race in June called the Summer Spine that's in the UK. It's 268 miles from England to Scotland.
- [69:34]
A
Whoa.
- [69:34]
B
And it's sell. There's no crew, no pacers and there's only five aid stations.
- [69:40]
A
Wow. So each age it's like Speed Project UK.
- [69:43]
B
Well, each aid station is like 50 to 65 miles falls apart. So that's my, that's my big race of this year and I'm terrified of it. Like, so scared. But you know, that's why, that's why that's how I'm doing it and that's why I'm excited. But it's. Yeah, it's going to be, it's gonna, it's gonna test me for sure.
- [70:04]
A
What is the one thing that you want people to get out of reading your book?
- [70:10]
B
Well, I hope, you know, I hope people in a low point can read my book and realize that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but that it might take a while to get there and just to be patient with the process. But through time and consistency, they should be able to get themselves out of it. I wrote it hoping that because I know not everybody's in the same spot, right? And there's a lot of people that are in low points, like going through divorces, you know, maybe just getting out of jail, maybe just getting sober, whatever, and reading my book and going, well, here's somebody that's like pretty successful and here's the messy, curvy road he took to get here. It's not a straight line. It's a lot of this, a lot of mistakes, and then coming back, a lot of mistakes. You know, like you said in the beginning, my sobriety hasn't been this perfect. Oh, I got sober and then never did anything again. I mean, even, there's even a point where after my divorce, a doctor prescribed me medication and I just took it and it, you know, and I shouldn't have because it was, you know, it was anti anxiety medicine and you know, sleep aids. And then, you know, then my body's like, oh, these are amazing. Like, we should just keep taking these, you know, and, and that's what an addict does, right? They like, oh, this I feel so good. Like, it makes me feel so. I don't, I don't feel anxious anymore. I can sleep perfectly. But yeah, you're going to keep making mistakes. And the key is just to keep failing forward. As I say, if, you know, fail
- [71:50]
A
forward, you know, and for the person who is listening to this or watching and feels stuck, they're inspired by what that you've shared today. But they just, they're stuck. They don't know what do I do first? How do I break this pattern? How do I get out of this rut that I'm in? What is the advice?
- [72:11]
B
Start fresh every Monday. Pick a 30 minute goal. Try to do 30 minutes of something every day, whatever that is. If it's walking, if it's jogging, if it's riding a bike, swimming, some sort of movement, if you're injured and you can't move, then, you know, pick something that you, that uses your brain. Write a journal, read a book. Do something to like, try to improve yourself. And do it 30 minutes every day.
- [72:36]
A
And put a smile on your face.
- [72:37]
B
Yeah. And put a smile on your face doing it right. Yeah. Try to find that positive.
- [72:42]
A
Yeah. Thanks, man.
- [72:43]
B
Yeah, no, thank you.
- [72:44]
A
I appreciate it. Yeah, this is great. Super nice to meet you. Your book is fantastic. Everybody pick it up right away. Your favorite independent bookseller or Amazon or wherever you.
- [72:55]
B
Unfortunately, I self publish.
- [72:57]
A
Oh, that's right. So Amazon is the place to get it.
- [73:00]
B
I. I mean, you can get signed copies on my website, but yeah, Amazon has me on a chokehold right now.
- [73:06]
A
And get yourself one of these smile hats.
- [73:08]
B
Yes. There you go.
- [73:10]
A
Cool, man. We'll come back and share more of your adventures.
- [73:13]
B
I will. I'm sure we could talk for another
- [73:16]
A
couple hours, but I'm a fan and I'll be cheering for you. Thank you.
- [73:20]
B
Fan as well.
- [73:21]
A
Thanks, Andy. Thank you. Peace.
- [73:23]
B
Peace plants.