← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
SOFI TUKKER On Unlikely EDM Superstardom, The Hard Business of Music, And The Athletic Art of Performance
02:05:37
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
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- [03:04]
Tucker Halpern
This thing that we started together out of air, you know, it's so cool. And we know if we want to keep traveling and performing the way we do, we have to treat it like we're athletes or else we're going to hate life.
- [03:16]
Sophie Hollyweld
Being really happy and joyful and having these experiences of ecstatic dancing and connection is huge for health.
- [03:25]
Rich Roll
Sophie Tucker is an electronic dancer duo whose meteoric rise has been catalyzed by a world hungry for connection. Amid global isolation. What began as an unlikely partnership between Sophie Hollyweld and Tucker Halpern has become something transformative. Their distinctive blend of Brazilian bossa nova and electronic beats has captured imaginations worldwide, from Apple campaigns to Oscar nominated films, earning them Grammy nominations and platinum record status across five continents.
- [03:58]
Sophie Hollyweld
The show that we put on is so different than if you were to go to that nightclub on any other night.
- [04:05]
Tucker Halpern
For us, it's more important to like, make the best show possible, possible.
- [04:10]
Rich Roll
But perhaps Sophie Tucker's most notable achievement isn't this chart topping success, but rather their ability to maintain balance and maintain authenticity in an industry known for excess and burnout. In a world of late nights and chemical enhancement that is the EDM world. These two have really carved out a different path, one that's grounded in well and mindfulness and intentionality, turning every performance into this positive, community building game that you can win.
- [04:39]
Sophie Hollyweld
We are so in love with what we do. I mean, it's the best thing in the world.
- [04:44]
Tucker Halpern
You go out and play a concert, everyone wants you to win. There's like no other team trying to make you lose. Things can go wrong, but it's pretty much.
- [04:51]
Rich Roll
And you can win every night.
- [04:52]
Tucker Halpern
You can win every night.
- [04:58]
Rich Roll
It's happening. You guys are here. I can't believe you, like, figured out a way to get over here amidst this insane schedule that you have, but you guys roll. I'm really happy that you're in the studio today. Thank you.
- [05:10]
Sophie Hollyweld
This is very surreal for me.
- [05:12]
Tucker Halpern
We're honored. We were gonna make this happen.
- [05:14]
Rich Roll
Yeah. You were in New York. Sophie and Tucker, you were in Vegas. Where were you earlier today?
- [05:22]
Tucker Halpern
Earlier? Yeah. Yesterday I came from Vegas. Sophie came from New York.
- [05:26]
Rich Roll
And you're going back to Vegas today?
- [05:27]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, we play Vegas tonight in New.
- [05:29]
Rich Roll
York tomorrow when we were trying to set this up. I reached out to Sophie and I was like, can we find a date? And you texted me your tour schedule.
- [05:37]
Sophie Hollyweld
For like three months.
- [05:38]
Rich Roll
I was like, it took me 20 minutes just to read it. I was like, there's no way this is happening. Like, I cannot believe the relentlessness with which you guys tour. It's impressive. I mean, you guys are playing shows almost every day, it looks like.
- [05:53]
Tucker Halpern
I like the word relentless.
- [05:55]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, yeah, I would say that's. That's true. We love to tour, we love to travel.
- [06:01]
Rich Roll
On paper, like, you're a very unlikely duo. You're very different people together. It all makes sense. And you're like, of course this works, right? But let's go back. I want to, you know, tell the superhero origin story here.
- [06:17]
Sophie Hollyweld
We have a lot of friends from college actually who meet us, or not who meat is, but who have found out that we're in a band together now. And they're like, wait, what? How is that possible that you two are in a band together?
- [06:29]
Tucker Halpern
Well, people cannot fucking years ago. Yeah, they get an hour.
- [06:32]
Sophie Hollyweld
They get an hour. We just ran into someone from college like an hour ago.
- [06:35]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, it was fun.
- [06:37]
Rich Roll
Anyway, okay, so you guys were both at Brown together? My postmaster back in 2010-14 or whatever?
- [06:45]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, pretty much.
- [06:46]
Rich Roll
But you both arrived at Brown with very different backgrounds. I mean, Sophie, you like, you've like lived all over the world and went to school and all kinds of different places. And you're, you're Tucker, a Massachusetts dude.
- [06:57]
Tucker Halpern
I was a jock from Boston.
- [06:59]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [06:59]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I was a basketball player. I was going to college to play basketball. I loved the coach there at the time, T.J. sorentin. I thought he would develop me, you know, and, and I would be a pro. And that was my pretty one track mind life at the time.
- [07:17]
Rich Roll
And you were captain of the team.
- [07:18]
Tucker Halpern
Was that junior year?
- [07:20]
Rich Roll
Junior?
- [07:21]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I was like all league sophomore year, captain junior year. And I ended up getting sick before the season started and I got mono, which normally, you know, goes away in three, four weeks and then you're fine. And my body never made it dormant, so I was actually really sick for like seven months. I had to leave school for a year to keep my eligibility for basketball. Because in the Ivy League you can only play the four years in a four year window. Yeah, it's a little bit different. And basically I didn't know what to do. I was just in bed not knowing what was wrong with me, really not having energy to get out of bed. And I moved back to Boston and was in my childhood room. And I wanted to be productive and didn't know how I could be productive, but I always wanted to make music. So I watch YouTube and just started producing music, really bad music.
- [08:18]
Rich Roll
Just like initially on GarageBand or something like that.
- [08:21]
Tucker Halpern
Started throwing out Pro Tools and then FL Studio and then Logic and ended up in Ableton, where we make music now. But, yeah, it was just. I was just. I just got obsessed with it.
- [08:35]
Rich Roll
And the mono thing, like, it's still with you, right? Like, you're still kind of.
- [08:40]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. They ended up calling it, like, chronic fatigue syndrome, which is really an umbrella term for we don't really know what's wrong with you. For me, it showed up a lot in inflammation issues that I've had ever since. I was never really able to be the same athlete again. I came back the next year and I played one more year at Brown and we had a new coach, and he just thought I wasn't working that hard, but I just physically could not do it. And it was really frustrating because it was my whole life. It was everything. I love the game so much. I love basketball. And it just wasn't fun because I was just getting killed. And I wasn't the. You know, I wasn't the star player he thought he was getting as a new coach coming in. And I wasn't the same athlete anymore.
- [09:30]
Rich Roll
And so what is the existential crisis that was visited upon you when you're, you know, somebody who's just only been thinking about, like, your prospects in the NBA, like, being a professional basketball player, just being kind of the overarching dream that's dictating all of your decisions?
- [09:47]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I mean, NBA would have been great. Probably marginal NBA, probably European Europe, But. But goals, yes. The identity crisis was the hardest part, I think. I was known as a basketball player. That was my. I leaned into that so much growing up and in college especially, that was what I was known for. And I didn't know who I was anymore at all. I remember getting back to school after being in bed and not socializing for, you know, basically a year. And I, like, was mumbling in a party, trying to, like, be witty and keep up with conversation, and I just. I just didn't. I was just confused, and I had no clue who I was anymore.
- [10:31]
Rich Roll
Were you an artistic kid, though, when you were younger? Like, was music something that you were drawn to naturally?
- [10:38]
Tucker Halpern
I loved music. I played drums in, like, middle school. I was in a garage band. But, you know, I don't read music. I didn't study it, really. I just, like, liked making mixtapes for my friends and showing people new music, and I just always loved it, but never had time. I was, you know, from when I was 12 years old, going to nationals on my AU team, it was just basketball.
- [11:03]
Rich Roll
And so in the wake of this mono experience, you're back at Brown. Basketball's out of the picture. I presume this was your senior year and you're trying to find something else to occupy that focus and level of intensity that basketball occupied.
- [11:20]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, exactly. I basically found this new passion when I was home in bed. Tried that one more year when I came back to school to play basketball and was still just making music on the side. And then my senior year, the doctor said, you can't play anymore. You're running yourself to the ground. Your body can't handle it. We don't really know why, but you just really can't do it. And I had one year left of school and I said, okay, I have this other passion. How do I make this into a career? I have one year to figure this out because I got no backup plan right now.
- [11:53]
Rich Roll
Right. You're not gonna go work at a bank or something?
- [11:54]
Tucker Halpern
I didn't wanna do that. I wasn't prepared to do that. I don't think I would've been good at that, and I didn't wanna do that.
- [12:00]
Rich Roll
Meanwhile, Sophie, walk us through kind of like your background up to the point where you meet Tucker.
- [12:09]
Sophie Hollyweld
So I was born in Germany, and then I basically moved my whole life with my parents. So I went to international schools in Germany, Atlanta, British Columbia, Italy. Then they moved to the Netherlands and they moved to Geneva.
- [12:25]
Rich Roll
Were they like diplomats? What was going on?
- [12:27]
Sophie Hollyweld
So my dad is an international school headmaster. Even though I was like, in Atlanta, Georgia, I was in a German program. So the bubble of my life has always just been international school kids, no matter what.
- [12:42]
Rich Roll
So wherever you were, you were in a school that wasn't of that place.
- [12:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
Exactly. Yeah.
- [12:47]
Tucker Halpern
Tell them about the high school.
- [12:49]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. So the high school that I went to was 200 students from 100 countries and nobody could pay to go. So it wasn't like a rich kids school. Each country basically chose two students from their country to go to the school to be ambassadors of their country with the idea that they would be future leaders of their countries, that then when they're leaders that they happen to know the other leaders of The UN was a high school.
- [13:19]
Rich Roll
This is what it was.
- [13:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
It was started after the Second World War as just this hope to make peace in the world.
- [13:24]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [13:24]
Tucker Halpern
You could not have had different upbringing.
- [13:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah. But the breadth of your experience as a young person, you know, that's very unusual.
- [13:36]
Tucker Halpern
I didn't leave the country until I was 21.
- [13:38]
Rich Roll
Right. And Brown's like, what, like an hour drive from wherever you grew up or something, right?
- [13:43]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, yeah. And in the context of this high school, for instance, each room had to have four kids from four different continents and nobody could say, could share the same first language. So it was just so extreme in its internationalism. And the world that I grew up in was, you know, hyper. I think I always had this idea that it was my responsibility to change the world, to really help.
- [14:13]
Rich Roll
Where does that come from?
- [14:14]
Sophie Hollyweld
Well, it comes from the schools, I think, in part. And it comes in part from my parents unconsciously, which since then I just did this. Have you ever heard of the Hoffman Institute?
- [14:24]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [14:25]
Sophie Hollyweld
So I came back from Hoffman recently and I came back to my parents and I asked them to basically tell me directly, like, hey, Sophie, it's not your responsibility to change the world. And it was very huge healing for me because I don't think they realized that they put that pressure on me either.
- [14:40]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:41]
Sophie Hollyweld
But it was definitely there.
- [14:43]
Tucker Halpern
It was hard to convince her to start a band. We'll get there. It's part of the story, I guess. But that is real. She was very resistant to being in a band because she felt like she had to do.
- [14:55]
Rich Roll
I thought it was responsibility, the heavy lifting of saving the world.
- [14:58]
Sophie Hollyweld
I mean, you know, man. But yeah, so that was my. That was my sort of upbringing. And then I went to Brown and I realized that I was just obsessed with Brazilian music. So I was taking voice lessons and I realized that I just wanted to sing the songs in Portuguese because I think my voice sounds better in Portuguese and I just like those songs.
- [15:19]
Rich Roll
How many languages do you speak and how many of those did you learn through all of those experiences growing up?
- [15:26]
Sophie Hollyweld
I really speak German, English and Portuguese. And then I used to speak Italian, but my Portuguese has kind of overtaken the Italian.
- [15:34]
Rich Roll
What is it about Portuguese and the Brazilian culture that captured you so thoroughly?
- [15:40]
Sophie Hollyweld
It's something so bizarre. It's almost like someone has said, you know, that I was Brazilian in a past life, which I don't. I'm not really a past life person necessarily, but it was the music, you know, I heard the music and I was just so attracted to the sounds. And specifically this sort of bossa nova style music. It's very intimate. The. The singers are basically like whispering into the microphones and it just suits my voice well. And so I was just singing all these songs, and my voice teacher was like, sophie, I think you should learn Portuguese because they offer it here at Brown. So I went to the Portuguese professor. I just told her, I don't really have any connection with Brazil. I just really like the music. And so she encouraged me to take the course. And then at that point, I was just obsessed with learning Portuguese. So then I did a study abroad program, and I moved to Rio. And I was so in love with everything about the culture that I learned about in Rio. Because just I think the first thing is the way that music lives in people's lives there. It's just music is a central point of Brazilian culture, and it's crazy.
- [16:49]
Tucker Halpern
You, like, walk on the street and, like, the people just playing music on the sidewalk are, like, the most amazing musicians and singers ever. Like, they could be a really awesome thing. It's just like, their side, like, they're just having fun, hanging with their friends on the stoop. It's crazy.
- [17:06]
Sophie Hollyweld
Thinking about how important Carnival is to Brazilians, I think says a lot. You know, the entire country takes off a week at minimum, just to, you know, sing and dance and party. They spend the entire year prepping for Carnival. Their outfits and the songs and the samba parades in schools are just incredible. And I don't think there's any other place in the world that I know of. I also just like the styles of music a lot, but just the importance of music and the importance of celebration and dance and sort of this, like, vibrancy just really captured me.
- [17:43]
Rich Roll
So you're naturally drawn to this genre of music and just to music generally. Right. But as somebody who's thinking, like, I'm supposed to be saving the world, do you kind of keep that, you know, as a side project? Because you're focused on, you know, going into the nonprofit world or whatever that might look like government or diplomacy. Like, I don't know where your head.
- [18:07]
Sophie Hollyweld
Was at, but yeah, that's exactly. I think I felt this pull towards that a lot of different styles of Brazilian music. And I also just knew that I wanted to live in Brazil because I like the culture so much. I just wanted to live there and be surrounded by it. But then I was studying conflict resolution, and I think diplomacy was sort of what I thought I should do. And I was a mediator at the time. And so it was something around that, you know, like, diplomacy, mediation, conflict resolution, international d'affaires, something like that.
- [18:40]
Rich Roll
Right, right, right. You're gonna Be like that. What was that movie? Nicole Kidman is, like, working at the UN and gets herself caught up in some kind of intrigue.
- [18:48]
Sophie Hollyweld
Oh, I do remember this movie, but I need to see it.
- [18:50]
Rich Roll
I don't know either.
- [18:51]
Sophie Hollyweld
And then I was just. I was making music in Portuguese because I missed the country and the culture so much. And I just did it for fun, really. But secretly I just wanted to sing and dance.
- [19:06]
Rich Roll
When you returned from that semester abroad, were you performing music at Brown?
- [19:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, so I started. I did probably like three or four performances. And it was just. I wrote some music. You know, a lot of it was in Portuguese. It was just like, me and my guitar. And then I had a piano player and a drum player join me on some gigs. And so we would play around school. And at the same time, Tucker was also DJing around, and so we were.
- [19:32]
Rich Roll
So you were like the DJ at frat parties and stuff like that?
- [19:36]
Tucker Halpern
I was like the dude. So, yeah, I went back to school.
- [19:39]
Rich Roll
Just like the bro y dj.
- [19:40]
Tucker Halpern
I learned how to dj, but I wasn't that bro y. I was always like the athlete that also had other friends. Cause Brown, I think a lot of colleges are like, the athletes kind of stick to themselves. They all hang out at the sports house. And then there's everyone else, and especially at Brown, because if you're an athlete, you know, you get in, you're recruited athlete, but everyone else. It's so hard to get into Brown that everyone else is, like, very qualified.
- [20:06]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [20:06]
Tucker Halpern
And there's a big difference socially between, like, the school is what, 5,000 people undergrad. I never saw Sophie once. Like, I never even saw Sophie.
- [20:17]
Sophie Hollyweld
There were even different libraries.
- [20:18]
Tucker Halpern
You didn't even see me, right?
- [20:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
No.
- [20:20]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. I'm six, eight, six, seven.
- [20:23]
Sophie Hollyweld
I mean, I don't know if this was your experience too, but there was sort of like the library for the intellectuals and the library for the athletes.
- [20:31]
Tucker Halpern
There was. There's no separate ones.
- [20:33]
Sophie Hollyweld
And so we would study at the.
- [20:34]
Tucker Halpern
Time, I never went into that library. I didn't go into the library that much in general.
- [20:37]
Rich Roll
And even, like the social circles never interacted.
- [20:41]
Tucker Halpern
But not much for an athlete. I was like a more of a cross pollinator.
- [20:49]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I pollinator.
- [20:51]
Tucker Halpern
So then.
- [20:51]
Rich Roll
So then how did you guys, first of all, when you were performing, I know you shared with me a while back when you were at our house, like, this idea of taking these Brazilian poems and then turning them into songs. Is that what you were experimenting with at that time already?
- [21:09]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, a little bit.
- [21:10]
Tucker Halpern
So, you know, in Like Christmas movies, when they start the movies by following different people's lives and then they like bump into each other at the supermarket. Yeah, we're about to get into our, like.
- [21:21]
Rich Roll
Yeah, we're moving towards the meet cute.
- [21:24]
Tucker Halpern
You know, but it's like, funny because.
- [21:27]
Rich Roll
It'S also like a sliding doors thing because you could have easily not.
- [21:31]
Tucker Halpern
Easily not met. We're painting a funny. Like these two lives that had nothing to do with each other. And then all of a sudden the.
- [21:40]
Rich Roll
Most important person in your life in the screenplay, it's. Yeah, we're building towards the inciting incident.
- [21:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
And the funny thing is, in the moment, I do. And I think this is common in those movies that we're talking about where I just didn't really make anything of it. Like, I had my mind on so many other things that night even that.
- [21:58]
Tucker Halpern
It just kind of happened.
- [21:59]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [22:00]
Sophie Hollyweld
The night.
- [22:00]
Tucker Halpern
We'll get to it. We didn't get there yet.
- [22:01]
Sophie Hollyweld
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [22:02]
Rich Roll
Right.
- [22:03]
Tucker Halpern
It was not romantic. If anyone's already.
- [22:05]
Rich Roll
No, no.
- [22:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
Not romantic at all. So basically I was asked to play at an art gallery because I had played one or two gigs and. And I was just doing it for fun. And I was thinking, okay, what do I want to do after school? I don't know. I was going to job fairs. I remember going to New York and I.
- [22:22]
Tucker Halpern
Writing a thesis.
- [22:23]
Sophie Hollyweld
I was writing a thesis. I was in the library a lot and I didn't really enjoy the thesis process. And I also went to this job fair and I remember talking to all these people who were technically in my field and just interviewing them a bit about what it would be like to, you know, work in a way that they do. And I just left the job fair. I remember being on the subway with some random girl that was there and I just looked around, I started bawling my eyes out. And she was like, are you okay? I don't even know you. This is kind of weird that you're just crying, but what's going on?
- [22:54]
Tucker Halpern
It's so weird if you know her. Yeah, she cries.
- [22:57]
Sophie Hollyweld
And I just looked at her and I said, I just really want to just sing and dance, you know, I just. I knew that that's what I really wanted to do, but I had to fight it really hard. So anyway, at that same time, you.
- [23:09]
Rich Roll
Should have gone to Hoffman then.
- [23:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
I know, right? I know. Would have been.
- [23:13]
Rich Roll
It's okay. It worked out.
- [23:14]
Sophie Hollyweld
It did work out.
- [23:15]
Tucker Halpern
I was her Hoffman.
- [23:16]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [23:18]
Sophie Hollyweld
Whoa. Yeah. So I was asked to play my songs at an art gallery and it was you know, for about 10 people.
- [23:28]
Tucker Halpern
At college at most.
- [23:30]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And so I went with the drummer and the piano player and we were playing my songs and they were inspired by. Really at this point, I hadn't started working with the Brazilian poet yet, but they were in Portuguese. And Tucker was also asked to DJ that same event. So he came to the art gallery and he came early and he knew Bryn, who was playing piano with me, and he just said, hey, can I come up early? So he started bringing in a drum loop from a song. And he just said, you keep playing. Just keep up with the drums. And so he sped it up and sped it up and sped it up and sped it up. And.
- [24:09]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, so her songs just got like really fast. And I was like, this sounds better.
- [24:14]
Rich Roll
This is not only like the Miku, but also like the montage in every like, music biopic where they're in the studio and like they're just. They just craft the hit song, like in like at the snap of the fingers.
- [24:28]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. I guess a couple months later, we kind of had that moment, but this moment. Do you remember the movie that Thing youg Do with Liv Tyler? And I think. I don't know, anyway, Tom Hanks. Yeah. But in the movie, their drummer breaks his arm and they have to get another guy to come in. Like, the guy works at the fridge store and he's like, really good drummer, but he just plays it way too fast. And then all of a sudden it's like a hit. Oh, interesting.
- [24:55]
Sophie Hollyweld
Wow.
- [24:55]
Tucker Halpern
I always think about that.
- [24:56]
Sophie Hollyweld
Had you watched that movie before?
- [24:58]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, but I wasn't thinking, like, I'm gonna be like that thing you do.
- [25:02]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So you have this little experience.
- [25:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
Mm, yeah. And he says, hey, I really like that. Can we. Do you have a recording of the song? And I did technically, but it was not really usable. So then I just went over to his house the following day and recorded the song.
- [25:19]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I was persistent. I was like, just come over tomorrow. We'll record the vocal and then I'll produce it into like a dance music setting and see how that feels. It just like felt like it would be a fun great idea.
- [25:31]
Rich Roll
And where was your head at, Tucker? Like, were you like, oh, this could be just a fun little thing?
- [25:38]
Tucker Halpern
Yes. This was an interesting year for me because I wasn't an athlete anymore. I had spent the summer before this year learning how to dj, literally in my room at home in Boston in my parents house. And then I went back to school. The first week I got a DJ gig at the swim house, which you know, I think got shut down after, like, three songs. Cause from the police. But I just had a DJ controller and a big speaker, like a JBL giant speaker. And I had a car. And people would just come after that first DJ set. People were like, oh, he's good. I like the music he's playing. And I got a couple more gigs the next week. And then people would just call me at like, midnight and be like, we're gonna have a party tonight. Come over. And I would just get out of bed, literally drive over and play till like, eight in the morning. And it was like, the best schooling I ever did, honestly. And there was a really good party scene at Brown. A lot of international people who, like, had a really interesting interest in dance music. And it was a good time for dance music. It was just like, things were just clicking.
- [26:40]
Rich Roll
And so Sophie comes over. You record this song, you do what you do to it. And was there a sense at that time, like, hey, this could be something? Or did you share that song and was it received well? Or like, how did all the dominoes kind of fall to you guys saying, like, hey, let's make this a thing?
- [27:00]
Tucker Halpern
I worked on that song for a little bit. It was very whatever. For Sophie at this point, I think she was, like, busy with her thesis and jobs. And she had a fellowship that I think she had just gotten. So she was gonna move back to Brazil after graduation and teach music and yoga, I think. And I was basically thinking, like, okay, I think this is a good idea. The music I'm making is fine, but it's nothing special. You know, how am I gonna do. You know, how am I gonna make music a career? And I thought there was something special there. So I kept kind of bugging her to do it. I also needed an extra credit to graduate. And at Brown you can make your own class. So I was like, can we just.
- [27:41]
Rich Roll
Only at Brown can we make an ep?
- [27:43]
Sophie Hollyweld
This is a great school.
- [27:44]
Tucker Halpern
Can we make an EP of music?
- [27:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
I loved that.
- [27:46]
Tucker Halpern
And it'll get me a final credit that I need to graduate. And she was like, I don't have time. I have, like, way too many credits. I am writing this. I'm writing this thesis. And I was like, please just like, let me do this so I can gradu. Kind of like. That was part of my immediate idea for that, I think. And so we ended up basically taking some songs that she had written in Portuguese, and I produced them electronically and made them, and I got a course credit.
- [28:15]
Sophie Hollyweld
But relentless.
- [28:16]
Tucker Halpern
I was relentless in bugging her to get out of the library and make music with me. And then I'd say a week or two before graduation, I went to. Or no, we were in the studio called Steinert at Brown. And I was working on a remix actually to, like.
- [28:35]
Sophie Hollyweld
Do you remember what it was?
- [28:36]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I do.
- [28:38]
Rich Roll
Do you wanna say it?
- [28:39]
Tucker Halpern
It's an old Green Day song, a classic. And I was like, this is gonna be sick. People are gonna go crazy when they hear this. And I had made the music and I was like, sophie, can you play something like this or no? Then I think I was like, the remix isn't good enough. So we took off the Green Day part. And then I was like, but it's got a cool vibe. Do you ever play electric guitar? And she was like, no, I've never played electric guitar. So this is the moment when it was like the. So then we grabbed our friend's electric guitar and like, a broken amp with, like, a blown speaker. And I put it in her hands and she starts, like, plucking it like a bass. And, like, doesn't really know what to do with an electric guitar. Cause she's, like a really quiet acoustic player. And. And I'd say within, like, five minutes, the Drinky riff. The riff to our first song, Drinky was made. And it was such a. Like, we had it on loop for, like, two hours and it never got old. And we were like, this is really good. And then we were like, what should we do for a vocal? And she. This is when she was like, well, I was just doing a poetry reading with this Brazilian poet for my Portuguese class last week. And he has this amazing poem. And she just started reading it over the guitar. Guitar. And, like, the drum beat. And I was like, record it. And so we literally recorded it. And then we had. And the song is literally like just like four minutes of different variations of that loop, basically. And it was just like, special.
- [30:23]
Rich Roll
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, one of the things that I've learned over the years about therapy is that it's not all about crisis management or just about facing and working through your shortcomings. It is that, of course, it's helped me through all of my darkest, lowest, and most desperate moments. But therapy actually really shines when you use it proactively as an essential tool to more positively navigate work, relationships, parenting, or yourself. To really grow and help you build a better, more authentic life that is healthy, purposeful and sustainable. In other words, therapy not as a red flag, but as a green flag. Not Just as triage to manage negative things, but as more of a Life Optimizer. And BetterHelp removes all the resistance and the excuses by simplifying the process and giving you access to choose from its platform of over 30,000 credentialed therapists. They've helped more than 5 million people worldwide. And you can easily switch therapists until you find the right fit. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com richroll today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com richroll I would say that I'm someone who's very mindful and intentional about optimizing my physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health. I would also say, or perhaps admit that I have a history of being, let's just say, a little less so when it comes to my finances. So one of my major resolutions for 2025 is to change my hygiene around that. And one of the ways I'm going about that is by using Rocket Money, which is really a terrific personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions. It monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. It's been super easy to use, and what's cool is just how comprehensive it is. It's got this intuitive dashboard that gives you a clear view of all your expenses across accounts. It helps you create custom budgets and even alerts you about unusual spending or price increases. And how about this? They'll even negotiate your bills for you dealing with customer service so you don't have to. And for me, that is a game changer. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Rich Roll today, that's RocketMoney.com Rich Roll and that's the song that ultimately gets licensed by Apple. Right. And they use it for their product launch or something like was it the iPhone X or the Apple Watch?
- [33:24]
Tucker Halpern
An Apple Watch one. And so it was just on SoundCloud at that point. And then how long?
- [33:31]
Rich Roll
I mean, first of all. So you bang this thing out pretty quick, right? And you put it on SoundCloud and.
- [33:35]
Tucker Halpern
Then how long before?
- [33:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, there's a long period of time there, actually. So we.
- [33:39]
Tucker Halpern
If there was a movie made about it, it would be quick.
- [33:42]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, but it wasn't the longer version of the story is that we made that song. You know, we made 90% of that song that last week, right before we graduated.
- [33:52]
Tucker Halpern
But we still weren't a band.
- [33:54]
Sophie Hollyweld
No.
- [33:54]
Tucker Halpern
Sophie was not trying to be in a band with me.
- [33:57]
Rich Roll
And you're just trying not to be, like, a wedding dj.
- [34:00]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, literally. I was like, I don't want to be just a club dj. Like, that. Just. That's gonna be tough. I don't know. I was gonna figure something out. And I went to New York. I was friends with these DJs named the Knocks, who were a big group in New York at the time. And I showed them what I was working on separately. And then they were like, eh, it's okay. And then I was like, well, check this out. And I threw them on some of the stuff we were doing together. And they were like, this is cool. You could. Maybe you should pursue this and, like, do this. And I was like, okay. That's all I needed. I needed one person in the industry to say, you could do this. So then I grabbed onto it. I called, stepped out, literally stepped out of the studio, called Sophie. I think this was, like, the day before graduation, literally.
- [34:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. I remember because it was right when I finished my final exam.
- [34:50]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [34:51]
Sophie Hollyweld
And at the time, that was a really big deal for me.
- [34:54]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [34:54]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. I don't know.
- [34:56]
Rich Roll
I called her, and you were, you know, crying after the job fair. So I presume you didn't, like, get some job that you were, like, sort of aiming towards at that point.
- [35:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, but I did. So I had a fellowship to go to Brazil. So I was like, okay, I don't want to do that job fair thing, but I do know that I love Brazil, so I'm gonna go there. I have this poet I like working with. Maybe I'll make some music with him, then I'll at least be in Brazil, and then I'll figure out the whole diplomacy thing later.
- [35:22]
Tucker Halpern
I wasn't in the cards.
- [35:23]
Rich Roll
All right, so how did you talk her out of that plan?
- [35:25]
Tucker Halpern
So I called her, and I was like, like, let's start a band. We can do this. This song. There's something special here. And she was like, no way. No. I don't even know you. We were, like, making music for the past. We barely knew each other four, three, four, five months. But we were never even hanging out socially. Like, we weren't. We didn't have the same friends. We weren't. I think I brought you to, like, a DJ gig. I did once at this club called The Coliseum. And she was like, what is this? It was like a rave. And she was like, I don't know what's going on here. I mean, a little. You were pretty wide eyed.
- [36:00]
Sophie Hollyweld
Do you remember that night? Your dad was there.
- [36:02]
Tucker Halpern
I know. My dad came to see me DJ for the first time. And you were there.
- [36:06]
Sophie Hollyweld
I danced a lot.
- [36:07]
Tucker Halpern
You danced. It was the dripping and gold. It was a really fun party.
- [36:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
It was really fun.
- [36:12]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [36:12]
Sophie Hollyweld
But, yeah, definitely not.
- [36:13]
Tucker Halpern
We were doing really good parties.
- [36:14]
Sophie Hollyweld
Not done anything.
- [36:15]
Rich Roll
So what flicked the switch then?
- [36:17]
Sophie Hollyweld
Well, he was relentless.
- [36:18]
Tucker Halpern
Persistence.
- [36:19]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And he. I mean, he just made a really good argument.
- [36:23]
Tucker Halpern
So I. Basically what I did was she said no. And so then I was like, okay, how am I gonna convince her? And then I really thought about it. I think I had a conversation, probably called my dad and we, like, talked it through and we were like, okay. Because I'd gotten to know her enough to know that she felt this big responsibility. She wanted to make a difference. She really wanted to go to Brazil. She had all this education. I think she felt a little pressure from her parents and from herself to be a diplomat or do something and really, like, change the world. And so I called her back. It was over a couple days, conversations. And I said, soph, if we do this and it's successful, you're gonna be able to help so many more people than if you go back. No one knows you. You're like helping one person at a time. Like, yeah, it's valiant, but, like, you'll be able to make such a bigger difference in the world, especially in Brazil. And I promise we'll focus on Brazil and, like, make that a priority for us.
- [37:25]
Rich Roll
That's a pretty good argument.
- [37:26]
Tucker Halpern
And that was going right to the.
- [37:27]
Rich Roll
Heart of your motivation.
- [37:28]
Tucker Halpern
Right?
- [37:28]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [37:28]
Tucker Halpern
And I knew she secretly wanted to do it.
- [37:31]
Sophie Hollyweld
I just wanted to sing and dance. Just what I wanted to do.
- [37:34]
Tucker Halpern
You say it like it's so chill.
- [37:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
I know.
- [37:37]
Tucker Halpern
We do more than sing and dance.
- [37:38]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, I know, but I think every.
- [37:40]
Rich Roll
Time 1% of our job, you're like workaholics.
- [37:43]
Sophie Hollyweld
But it's because we are. We are so in love with what we do. I mean, it's the best thing in the world. Like, I would do all of this in my free time if I had another job, you know? So I feel like I'm just like, living out my dream hobby.
- [37:56]
Rich Roll
Sure.
- [37:56]
Tucker Halpern
I mean, all the travel and the packing and the repacking and the travel.
- [38:00]
Sophie Hollyweld
May be a little less, but the actual work, I mean, the making music and performing music and Everything that goes, you know, into what we do is.
- [38:11]
Rich Roll
Well, it's a special time for you guys right now too. Right. Like, you've worked hard to be in the position that you're in, and you should take full advantage of every opportunity. There's a lot of opportunity for you right now.
- [38:24]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. Although, ironically, I feel like we're also taking fewer and fewer and fewer opportunities, which is the best part of right now. Like, I think source.
- [38:32]
Rich Roll
Yeah, but you're in a position where you can say no.
- [38:35]
Sophie Hollyweld
Exactly.
- [38:36]
Rich Roll
Right. And you gotta say, you know, you have to say no to protect the better opportunities.
- [38:41]
Tucker Halpern
Right.
- [38:41]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. Like, I feel way healthier now than I ever did. We used to pop around the globe in a really bizarre way. And now we can be like, no, we're not gonna go to Japan for a day and then back to Europe. That's crazy.
- [38:55]
Tucker Halpern
Which is really. We used to feel like, no, we need to do this or else we'll be missing a huge opportunity. And now it's a little more on our terms. But we still. I mean, we're still definitely relentless. And early on, we would butt heads on this a little bit. I remember one of the first. And this is where, like, my sports background really came into play. And we had to figure out where it fit with each other. Cause, like, we were in the studio. So we ended up moving to New York and working out of the Knox studio. The guys who I was friends with and Sophie was friends with, too, and we were working at nights when they weren't in there or when they were on tour. And it was this little place in Chinatown. I've never seen so many rats. Not in the place. But that walk that we took from my house to there, man.
- [39:46]
Rich Roll
And this is like, 20, 15, 14.
- [39:49]
Tucker Halpern
Still 14. Yeah. Like the summer right after graduation. So we were sort of in the studio trying to make our first, like, ep, literally learning how to make music, trying to figure out how to use the studio. Like, literally. It would probably take us, like, three hours to hook up the microphone because I was, like, still learning how to do stuff. And it was late one night. I remember this was, like, one fight. And we've talked about it, and it doesn't show. Sophie's a really hard worker, so this isn't to say she's not, but we had an argument because it was late. And she was like, I'm tired. I wanna go to bed. And I was like, who cares if you're tired? You know, we got here a couple hours ago. Like, I used to wake up at 4:30 run stadiums and then go lift and then go to breakfast and then go to practice and then go to class and then go back to the gym. Like. Like the things that you sort of have to do as a Division 1 athlete are just physically so painful that. And you know, like physical pain, obviously better than I do, but.
- [40:54]
Rich Roll
Yeah, but you're just instilled with a sense of discipline early that gets reinforced and becomes just sort of who you are.
- [41:01]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. And so we would kind of butt heads and she's like, no, but it's creativity, you know, I need to like feel not tired to make the music and feel the. And I was like, no, you can just do it. And like we. And. And this somewhere in the middle is probably the right answer.
- [41:18]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it is, it is. I mean there's. That's. That's a true statement on some level. Like, like it is curious, like, where does the athlete mentality or mindset, you know, benefit the creative process and when does it work at cross purposes with it? Because obviously there's the performance and touring side of it. And I would imagine in that context, like the athlete mindset is very helpful because it's so draining and you're putting on this. It's an athletic performance. What you guys do. Right. Sophie's probably that's sort of like become.
- [41:48]
Tucker Halpern
More of an athlete in those regards than I am now because of my inflammation and because of a lot of things. She's really more of a physical athlete now. Like the way she treats her body, makes sure she gets her workouts in every day, you know, follows a workout regimen, her sleep, her eating habits. Like she's probably better like now as a touring athlete than I am, but it's just. But she's, you know, picked that up.
- [42:16]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I want to get into all that. We're working our way towards it. But I mean, I think for right now, on the idea of like the athlete mindset and when it's helpful and when it's not, like setting aside the touring piece and focusing on the creative act of like making music in the studio or the writing and all of that, like you can't force that on some level. I mean, you can show up for it and be disciplined about it, but on some level there's sort of an allowing that has to happen. Right.
- [42:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
Kind of. But we're both kind of going like this in our heads because I think.
- [42:51]
Tucker Halpern
We have 10 years later, we don't still fully agree on it maybe.
- [42:54]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, I actually think.
- [42:56]
Rich Roll
But that tension is what is the Grist. Right.
- [42:58]
Sophie Hollyweld
That, like, I really do think it's. We found a nice middle ground, which is there are all sorts of things that you brought over from basketball and from your athletic mentality that I think maybe you've even changed your mind on. Like, you're like, oh, well, I've had, you know, grown ass men screaming in my face telling me to get the ball or whatever they say.
- [43:23]
Tucker Halpern
Get on ball.
- [43:24]
Rich Roll
Yeah. It's helpful to have old men yelling at you when you're younger.
- [43:28]
Tucker Halpern
It's weird. From like, age 12, it's the only time. This is one of the only things in sports that grown adults will be like, screaming demonstratively in your face.
- [43:39]
Sophie Hollyweld
But I think the reason that I bring it up is because he does bring it up a lot. And I'm like, yes. And I actually don't think that's how most humans get motivated. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's not how I get motivated, you know, so moving a bit away from what you were used to. What is that thing?
- [43:59]
Tucker Halpern
No, no, I don't think I necessarily get motivated by someone yelling in my face.
- [44:02]
Sophie Hollyweld
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [44:04]
Tucker Halpern
Just for the record.
- [44:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, no, that's good to know.
- [44:07]
Tucker Halpern
But I definitely don't get shook from criticism or negative comments or. You learn not to get shook by stuff as much.
- [44:21]
Sophie Hollyweld
And I think we.
- [44:21]
Tucker Halpern
And that's a big help in this business, I think. And a lot of people who didn't have that sort of sports background, they get very shaken by criticism or hate or whatever you call it, you know, trolling, whatever you call it.
- [44:37]
Sophie Hollyweld
But I think in creativity, it's really important to show up in times that you don't want to show up. And I think that's something that Tucker definitely brought to the band.
- [44:45]
Rich Roll
That's the Steven Pressfield war of art. Like, if you're a pro, you show up for it no matter what.
- [44:51]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. You show up for the inspiration.
- [44:53]
Rich Roll
So there's the discipline piece, but then there's that when you are showing up, like, how do you open yourself up and be a channel rather than, like, you're in the gym and you're just like, like, pushing and how many reps can I do?
- [45:03]
Tucker Halpern
Right, right.
- [45:04]
Sophie Hollyweld
And there is definitely that point where I think it's okay to say, you know what? Not today. It's not happening. And we're not gonna keep pushing because now we're just working hard and not working smart. So I think we've. We're still developing, you know, how much.
- [45:17]
Rich Roll
Of the writing process do you guys do? Together versus you go your separate ways and then, like, bring ideas to the table.
- [45:25]
Tucker Halpern
It's really both. Yeah, we. We do both. I mean, a lot of our songs and albums and things were, like, made from both of us being in the same room together from the beginning. But we'll always start an idea with something. Maybe something coming from Sophie or something coming from me, or, you know, an old jazz song that I found that I think Sophie would find interesting or sound really good, like reinterpreting. Or Sophie, you know, just playing guitar in a room late at night, thinking of an idea. It's all over the place.
- [46:04]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. I think we're individually always collecting ideas and just looking at what is inspiring us. And then when we come to the studio and when we come together, we kind of do a little show and tell and we're like, well, this is a beat that I made last night. Or, like, these are some words I've been thinking about. Or this is a concept I really want to write a song about. Or here's a melody I thought of. And I wonder how it could work with the beat that you've been inspired by or the sample or whatever.
- [46:28]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah. On some level, like, the idea of, like, mashing genres, I mean, it's not entirely new. I mean, Aerosmith and Run DMS and all these sorts of, you know, kind of experiments with this over the years. Moby, you know, like, everything that he did by taking, you know, kind of older music and putting it together. When you reflect on, like, kind of what you guys do specifically, like, what. What is it that you think makes it stand out or is unique, beyond the fact that you're singing in Portuguese or in different languages and using these bossa nova kind of, like, overtones?
- [47:02]
Tucker Halpern
I think there's a couple you can go first. I'm curious what you'll say.
- [47:06]
Sophie Hollyweld
I think it's just that we're two very different people. And so the combination of what he's inspired by and what I'm inspired by is often kind of bizarre because there are not many people in bands with two people like us together in one band.
- [47:23]
Rich Roll
Everybody assumes that you're together. You live together now. Yeah. Like, you spend all your time together, but you're not together together.
- [47:30]
Tucker Halpern
And we'll be listening to different music. You know, if we're both sitting on a plane ride, you couldn't imagine how different the music in our headphones are. It's a Venn diagram. And it's like, so much of the things that I like and that I do and that I'm interested in in life are things that do not overlap with Sophie and vice versa. But the small overlapping moment is what Sophie Tucker is because we both love it so much and we both get so excited about it, even though our overall interest circles don't overlap that much. So, like, it's something like if we both get really, really excited about it, there's something special about it, because coming from such different places, perspectives, backgrounds, we both still love that. So it's got to cover a decent amount of people.
- [48:21]
Rich Roll
So you're in New York, you're in the Chinatown studio, like, banging out this first EP. How long? From that experience to the SoundCloud to Apple, to kind of having your first licensing thing and. And having, like, the visibility that comes with that. So basically, it happened pretty fast, right?
- [48:42]
Sophie Hollyweld
Not really. I mean, it's just like, you look at it, you know, it's relative.
- [48:45]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, relatively, it did.
- [48:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
But we made our first ep, pretty much finished our first ep, and then.
- [48:52]
Tucker Halpern
In the summer after graduation.
- [48:53]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And at the time, I was an obsessive runner, and I realized over time there was this pain in my foot that I. I had a stress fracture in my sesamoid toe. And so I started wearing a boot on that leg. On that foot. Sorry. But I kept moving and I kept doing a ton.
- [49:15]
Tucker Halpern
We were out, like, we just moved to New York. We were out every night. It was such a fun time. But, you know, you're walking a lot.
- [49:24]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:24]
Sophie Hollyweld
And dancing and on my feet, anyway. And then I basically developed the pain in the other foot. So I had sesamoid fractures in both of my big toes. And so my doctor just looked at me and he was like, you really only have one choice. Have to go into a wheelchair. So here I am in New York thinking, oh, my God, I have no money.
- [49:44]
Tucker Halpern
And she lived in the worst, like, six floor walk up in Chinatown. Wow. Yeah, that place was bad.
- [49:51]
Sophie Hollyweld
That was really bad.
- [49:51]
Tucker Halpern
Like, six people that you didn't know. Yeah, that place was bad.
- [49:55]
Sophie Hollyweld
And so I just. I had one option, which was to go move home. And at the time, my parents lived in the Netherlands. So I left New York, I went to the Netherlands, and I was in a wheelchair.
- [50:05]
Tucker Halpern
And we were just about to sort of launch this project together. And so I was like, in New York, like, whoa, I don't want to have to try to go get another job. Like, you know, basically asking my parents, like, can you help me pay rent for a few more months. I think we have something special here. And I don't Want to, like, abandon it, but Sophie has to go heal.
- [50:27]
Sophie Hollyweld
Her feet, and I didn't know that my feet were going to be healed. You know, it was kind of a toss up too, because sesamoids, I guess they just hope that they healed.
- [50:35]
Rich Roll
21 and in a wheelchair. Right? Right when your life is about to start.
- [50:39]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And so I'm living with my parents and, you know, my parents are kind of convincing me to apply to jobs, so I'm applying to jobs, thinking maybe when I get out of the wheelchair, I'll be a. I don't know, mediator.
- [50:53]
Rich Roll
Just when you're about to reach, like, escape velocity.
- [50:57]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [50:57]
Rich Roll
Like, you get pulled back in and re. Indoctrinated.
- [51:01]
Tucker Halpern
I remember you were signing up to be a personal trainer.
- [51:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
No.
- [51:05]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I remember.
- [51:07]
Sophie Hollyweld
That's absurd. That's crazy behavior.
- [51:10]
Tucker Halpern
I know.
- [51:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
Gosh. Okay. Well, not surprising. It turned out to be a really amazing period of time because for four months, Tucker and I. Yeah, it was four months.
- [51:22]
Tucker Halpern
Sheesh.
- [51:23]
Sophie Hollyweld
Tucker and I talked every single day on Skype. And at the time, we still weren't really friends. Like, we didn't really know each other. We hadn't really gotten vulnerable. And so now, I think in some ways, with the safety of it being on the Internet instead of in person, I felt like I really got to know him and I was in a really vulnerable spot. I was really anxious, I was scared.
- [51:50]
Tucker Halpern
And I had been in that spot a few years earlier.
- [51:53]
Rich Roll
So you were able to kind of trauma bond over your health ailments?
- [51:59]
Sophie Hollyweld
I would say that's when we really became friends.
- [52:01]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I was really able to relate and sort of help through it in an interesting way. I also, though, was having a lot of anxiety because I didn't have anything going on. I didn't have a job. It was a weird time. Yeah, I got on Prozac back then, actually, I had a couple panic attacks. It was a weird time.
- [52:18]
Sophie Hollyweld
It was a really weird time. But I think, I mean, you know, Tucker is a 6 foot 7 guy. He used to only wear black leather jackets and like, there was an impenetrable kind of vibe and. And suddenly I just saw this sort of softness under that. And like, when he was going through panic attacks and anxiety and I was having all this fear and anxiety, I think suddenly we saw each other's humanity in a different way and became friends in a different way. And we were able to say, okay, if we're gonna start this band together, what's important to us? What are our values? What do we like to look at? Like, what fashion is interesting to us, what part of the world is interesting to us? You know, we had to just ask all of these big questions, and we had the time to actually mull it over, and it was an amazing period of time.
- [53:07]
Rich Roll
In the end, that's a very kind of mature way to approach, you know, the kind of formation of a band to, like, exchange what your values are at the outset, you know, that's highly unusual, I would imagine, if you have.
- [53:22]
Tucker Halpern
A chance to start a band with someone who studied conflict resolution.
- [53:25]
Rich Roll
Yeah, you're right. You should take advantage of that.
- [53:27]
Sophie Hollyweld
Right.
- [53:28]
Rich Roll
Because, of course, the most successful bands all fall prey to their inability to navigate conflict. Right. And as, like, the success, you know, as you sort of scale up your success, then the stakes get higher. And I would imagine, like, that ratchets up, like, the potential for explosiveness if you don't have those skills to kind of work through stuff.
- [53:58]
Tucker Halpern
It's been communication for us. Like, really outward, open communication. If anything's ever bugging us, we don't, like, keep it inside and let it grow. It's just a talk it out. And I'm a full goldfish. Like, I was a shooter in basketball, you know, if you miss 10, that means you're gonna make the next 10. You forget about the last shot, and you just make the next shot.
- [54:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
It's amazing for me.
- [54:21]
Rich Roll
So, like, there's no. You don't.
- [54:22]
Sophie Hollyweld
You don't have.
- [54:23]
Rich Roll
Like, there's. There's no residue for the ever.
- [54:26]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, I will literally forget about it.
- [54:29]
Rich Roll
That's a superpower, actually.
- [54:31]
Sophie Hollyweld
It really is. Yeah. Also, start a band with the Goldfish, who will just forgive you for anything you say.
- [54:38]
Tucker Halpern
You know, I'm just not very sensitive. If you can't, like, say something that's gonna, like, kill me also, I don't know. Like, I'm sensitive in ways, but not.
- [54:46]
Rich Roll
Like, what is the. Like, the impetus between. You guys are not together, but you live together. Like, why did you make that decision? Did it not occur to you that maybe your relationship would be healthier if you had at least some separation?
- [55:00]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, didn't occur to us at all. Relentless.
- [55:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, relentless.
- [55:07]
Rich Roll
So then it could just be 2, 4, 7. It's just 2, 4, 7, right? Yeah.
- [55:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
But I.
- [55:11]
Rich Roll
You wouldn't miss a single opportunity to.
- [55:13]
Tucker Halpern
Well, just ideas. Like, when you get inspired, like, we're excitable people. We work off excitement. So if I'm just chilling on a Sunday, and I have a great idea, she's there, and we just will, like, cancel plans and hit It Safi Sapphire. I'll make her cancel plans and we hit it. Yeah.
- [55:33]
Sophie Hollyweld
But I will say that I think that right now in the evolution of our band, I feel like we're kind of individuating for the first time. You know, we're kind of like maybe we don't have to live together. You know, I think we're accepting that we have like, Tucker did a gig without me for the first time, like.
- [55:56]
Tucker Halpern
Last week, but it was a private gig. It wasn't like a. You know, it was like a wedding.
- [56:01]
Sophie Hollyweld
Still, like, that's the first thing I've.
- [56:03]
Tucker Halpern
Had a PJ wedding. Like a Sophie Tucker performance.
- [56:07]
Rich Roll
I get it. I get it.
- [56:09]
Sophie Hollyweld
So I think there is. Yeah, we kind of had had a coming together where, you know, we moved in together, what, in five years ago probably. And it just worked really well.
- [56:21]
Tucker Halpern
Six years. Seven. Six. Seven. Six years.
- [56:23]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. But he just bought a house on his own as an example, so.
- [56:28]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. But the first few places we lived, we like split them. So we bought them together and then we still live together. I mean, I technically bought this house in Las Vegas and she has like, you know, I made sure it had like a good separate private area that Sophie would like, so she'd like to be there.
- [56:48]
Sophie Hollyweld
But still he gets to go decorate the house exactly how he wants to do it.
- [56:51]
Tucker Halpern
Hell yeah.
- [56:52]
Rich Roll
How does it work though, if like you get like when you're cohabitating and like you like are dating somebody else or you're bringing other people back and like, you know, like it just. You're just. It creates a complex dynamic, I would imagine.
- [57:06]
Sophie Hollyweld
For sure. Complex. I mean.
- [57:08]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, you're kind of dating both of us in a way.
- [57:10]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that comes with the package.
- [57:12]
Tucker Halpern
Like, not really.
- [57:13]
Sophie Hollyweld
That's a stretch. But yeah, we definitely too.
- [57:16]
Rich Roll
Because if you bring someone in and they can't handle that, they're actually immediately. Right.
- [57:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
I think we also both handle it very differently, but our dating lives are also very differently. Different. Sorry. Well, I mean, you know, I dated his best friend and his best friend lived with us. So that was a dynamic for a while where it was kind of just the three of us. It wasn't really like, yeah, he was my boyfriend, but also they were best friends. So that worked really well actually. And then I think when he brings girl's back back, like, she's my mother. Yeah, I know. I'm just very.
- [57:52]
Tucker Halpern
She's judgy like my mother.
- [57:55]
Sophie Hollyweld
I'm not judgy. I'm just boundaried.
- [57:57]
Tucker Halpern
She's judgy.
- [57:58]
Rich Roll
I'm boundaried until hot off your Hoffman experience.
- [58:01]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [58:02]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. She's cold.
- [58:03]
Sophie Hollyweld
I can be kind of. I can be.
- [58:05]
Tucker Halpern
She scares them away for sure.
- [58:07]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. But only until. If I see that he really cares about them, you know, I care.
- [58:14]
Tucker Halpern
I always.
- [58:15]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, but, like, if they're really gonna be a part of your life, then I think, then. But I'm this way with everybody. I think I'm just. I have boundaries. Unless I open the floodgates.
- [58:26]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [58:27]
Sophie Hollyweld
So I'm not.
- [58:28]
Tucker Halpern
My floodgates are pretty open.
- [58:30]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [58:30]
Tucker Halpern
But we live together, so it's different.
- [58:33]
Rich Roll
Sure.
- [58:34]
Sophie Hollyweld
Like, Tucker's more of the. Like, be friends with everyone.
- [58:37]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [58:37]
Sophie Hollyweld
Have everyone over. They're like fam. Even though they met like, a week ago.
- [58:41]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [58:41]
Tucker Halpern
But I like having, like a clubhouse feel.
- [58:43]
Rich Roll
Right. I mean, that's the vibe that I get from you. Maybe that comes from basketball or maybe that's innate to you, but you're like a team player guy who needs a lot of people around all the time. And Sophie strikes me as somebody who maybe isn't always down for that. Not in a derogatory way. Like, your quiet time. You're down. Regulation. Solo time is important.
- [59:04]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. I spend a lot of time in float tanks.
- [59:06]
Tucker Halpern
You do?
- [59:07]
Sophie Hollyweld
I do. Yeah.
- [59:08]
Rich Roll
You know where they are in all the cities where you visit?
- [59:10]
Tucker Halpern
I think she does.
- [59:11]
Rich Roll
Really?
- [59:11]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [59:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
I didn't know that.
- [59:13]
Rich Roll
How do you guys downregulate after a show? I mean, these shows. Shows, you guys do go into the wee hours, right. And then you're traveling to the next city. I just know, like, even if I just do like, a talk in front of people, like, it takes me a long time to, like, I can't just go to sleep. How do you, like, de. Escalate those experiences that are so, like, hyper peak, you know, with thousands of people, and then do it night after night after night without exhausting yourself super differently.
- [59:42]
Sophie Hollyweld
Super differently.
- [59:43]
Tucker Halpern
Like everything else. I can just go to sleep.
- [59:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
Isn't that amazing?
- [59:46]
Rich Roll
You can just sleep anywhere.
- [59:47]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [59:48]
Rich Roll
That's another superpower.
- [59:50]
Tucker Halpern
I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Not always, but pretty much. I just go to sleep.
- [59:57]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And I do a lot of different things. I mean, one thing I do is a float tank. I feel like doing that once a week is a game changer for me. And I found one in pretty much every city in the world. They're everywhere now.
- [60:13]
Rich Roll
But, like, when you conclude a show for the night and you're like, I only have this amount of time to sleep. Like, I gotta, like, figure out how.
- [60:22]
Sophie Hollyweld
To, like, I Feel like it used to be harder, but I'm actually much better at managing it now. I mean, I just got.
- [60:29]
Tucker Halpern
She used to be really extra. She'd have like a two hour wind down routine.
- [60:33]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [60:33]
Tucker Halpern
But I had to, like, share rooms because we, like, weren't making any money and we couldn't afford to, like, have separate rooms. And she would literally be like, stretching for two hours. And I was like, go to bed.
- [60:44]
Sophie Hollyweld
I mean, now I have a physical cooldown. I have a vocal cooldown. It's short. It's like, you know, five, 10 minutes, and then I go into my bunk, I read a book or I watch something, you know, putting my legs up the wall. Sometimes I take something to sleep if we're on the bus and I know it's gonna be a shaky night. I mean, I've kind of also embraced that sometimes pharmaceuticals are great.
- [61:11]
Rich Roll
Effective.
- [61:12]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. When needed. It's better than like back to back to back really bad night of sleep.
- [61:16]
Rich Roll
I mean, you're not like sober sober, but in the EDM world, I would imagine you're very sober. Right. Like, you're basically in these environments that are like, you know, just off the rails, like every single night. Just insane amounts of drugs and alcohol.
- [61:31]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, I would say I'm sober sober.
- [61:33]
Rich Roll
You are. You're sober sober.
- [61:34]
Sophie Hollyweld
I.
- [61:34]
Tucker Halpern
Besides, like a sleeping pill every night.
- [61:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. Like, I forget what I take. But I just started taking California sober.
- [61:40]
Rich Roll
When you smoke pot but you don't drink. Right. It's some version of California sober.
- [61:44]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. When I say taking something, I'm talking about like, Benadryl, you know?
- [61:47]
Rich Roll
Oh, okay. You're not talking about, like, Valium or Ativan or something.
- [61:51]
Sophie Hollyweld
That would be too intense for my system. I'm so sensitive when we go on.
- [61:54]
Tucker Halpern
Like a European flight and she's like, I'm gonna take Xanax or something. It's 116 for. And she'll like, still panic if she takes it. It's crazy.
- [62:03]
Sophie Hollyweld
I actually did panic because I was like, I don't like when things are happening to my body that I don't. That are unfamiliar, that I don't know. Because I've been sober for over 10 years. So any. And I don't really like. I mean, it's. It's kind of new that I've even embraced that maybe it's okay to like, take 1/16th of a Xanax on a plane, you know? But the first time I did it, I was like, really panicking. I looked over at Tucker and I was like, I just feel like, something's happening in my body and I don't know what it is. And he was just like, sophie, calm down. Every. Everything's gonna be okay. You know, you're good.
- [62:33]
Rich Roll
It's pretty anachronistic that you guys are so, like, oriented around, like, wellbeing and like, taking care of yourself in a world that is sort of, you know, at cross purposes with that. Like every, every, like everything about that world that you inhabit is, like, working against that.
- [62:50]
Tucker Halpern
Yep, kinda. But I also think that's part of our goal, you know, the shared relentless goal that we have to grow and continue growing this, like, community and this thing that we started together out of air, you know, it's so cool. And we know if we want to keep traveling and performing the way we do, we have to treat it like we're athletes or else we're gonna hate life. We're not gonna be charming when we get up early to go to a radio station and have an interview. We're gonna not enjoy life. We're gonna be rude to people. It would change everything. So. And I mean, I'm not sober sober, but like, you know, I'll have a drink here and there and pop off occasionally. But, like, we're pretty much athletes, you.
- [63:41]
Rich Roll
Know, and you're modeling it to not just your audience, but other musicians as well. Like, that's part of changing the world. Sophie.
- [63:49]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [63:49]
Rich Roll
You feel good about that, I think.
- [63:51]
Sophie Hollyweld
I mean, a lot of people do come to us, you know, and they just ask us, how do you do it? Because either they're thinking of becoming sober or they, they see that we're able to withstand the schedule that we have, and they want to know how. And a lot of it does have to do with these, like, kind of boring, simple, but like, amazing little tricks that we've learned. But I also think that it's important not to discount the role that joy plays in wellness. You know, like, to be truly well and truly healthy. I think being really happy and joyful and having these experiences of ecstatic dancing and connection is huge for health. Like, I feel like all of our cells in our bodies are like, that's really there.
- [64:33]
Rich Roll
That's the experience you're trying to create in your shows. Like, it's really a joy spreading kind of happiness, you know, experience.
- [64:40]
Sophie Hollyweld
So it's not like the environments that we're in or that we're creating are like, going against, you know, being healthy.
- [64:46]
Rich Roll
I think that's like, for example, you're playing in Vegas tonight, right? At like, what casino One to three. Like one of those pool party like.
- [64:53]
Tucker Halpern
Like kind of situations. Nights inside 1:00am to 3:00am I mean, those, those are.
- [64:59]
Rich Roll
Those are pretty unhinged environments.
- [65:01]
Tucker Halpern
That's not the most healthy environment. But the past two months we've been on our live show tour, which is a concert. Most of the shows are from like 9 to 10:30. It's, you know, we have dancers, you know, I ice after the shows. We tour on a tour bus. They're not. The hours aren't that crazy. I was gonna say this earlier when you said what makes you unique, separate from the Portuguese and stuff. And I think I never answered it, but I was gonna say we have a live show which is like a concert. It's like a spectacle, an experience, a show to watch. But then we also will have a residency in Vegas where we dj and it's a party and it's a totally different experience. And then we're also now doing these like, strip or going to do. We haven't really announced it yet, but there's gonna be this like so jazz show and stripped down and doing all those things. But being ourselves, you know, there usually just isn't like a DJ act who plays in Vegas who will also do a jazz show in a blue note or something like that. And I think it's.
- [66:09]
Rich Roll
Cause that's super different.
- [66:11]
Tucker Halpern
It's just different. And we don't feel limited to genres, which I do think in dance music it's very genre specific. So I think it's good and bad. Sometimes we don't. And then it's harder for people to understand what are we. If they're coming to a Sophie Tucker show, they're like, well, first of all, most people think Sophie Tucker is one girl named Sophie Tucker. And then so they're like, who's the tall guy with Sophie Tucker? Yeah, so we're working against that already.
- [66:38]
Rich Roll
It's sort of like a Eurythmics situation a little bit. Annie Leonic, Dave Stewart. Yeah.
- [66:44]
Tucker Halpern
And it's like, so then, you know, and then it's like, well, is it a DJ set or is it a live concert? Are they gonna be playing instruments? Are they gonna be DJing, or is Sophie gonna be playing an acoustic guitar and singing?
- [66:55]
Sophie Hollyweld
J like, could be any of it.
- [66:57]
Tucker Halpern
Well, we try to make it clear. We try to make it as clear as possible and understand what you're getting into. But it's a plus and a negative because I think sometimes it's better for people to just know exactly what you want.
- [67:10]
Rich Roll
It's a pigeonhole you. But what makes you interesting is the fact that it's different, even if it challenges people to figure out how to, like, where they're supposed to compartmentalize you or plug you in.
- [67:21]
Sophie Hollyweld
The other thing that also really excites me is, you know, typically, if you're going to Vegas to We're playing at marquee tonight from 1 to 3am you're almost always gonna see a dude DJ up there with a bunch of girls, you know, in like, little outfits, dancing around. When you come to our show, first of all, there's. I think I am the, like, maybe the only woman on the lineup of this year.
- [67:46]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, the residency lineup.
- [67:47]
Sophie Hollyweld
And we bring our, like, fabulous flamboyant dancers of all different genders. And the show that we put on in that same environment is so different than if you were to go to that nightclub on any other night.
- [68:03]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [68:04]
Sophie Hollyweld
And that really. I really am excited by that.
- [68:08]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, that drives us.
- [68:09]
Sophie Hollyweld
I'm proud of that. Yeah.
- [68:10]
Tucker Halpern
Sort of changing culture a little. So you're changing the world.
- [68:13]
Rich Roll
I heard you tell a story about. I think you were in Paris and you were backstage at some event and there was a French band that was going on, and, like, they couldn't believe that you weren't drinking before the show. Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [68:28]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I actually know exactly what.
- [68:30]
Tucker Halpern
That's a long time ago. Yeah. They really couldn't believe that we weren't gonna get drunk before the show.
- [68:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
People always think we're on all sorts of drugs or that we're drinking or. I mean.
- [68:41]
Rich Roll
Well, it's an easy assumption to make because if you're in this world, like, obviously, maybe that's what attracts you to it or must be part of your experience as well. I mean, what is your green room rout and like, what's on the rider?
- [68:57]
Tucker Halpern
We, like, work out in the green room.
- [68:59]
Sophie Hollyweld
Usually we have our teas. These are our teas. The mate teas. We have an ask you about teas.
- [69:04]
Rich Roll
It's very smart to put them in cans that sort of look like Red Bull. Yeah, that's very, like, consistent, you know, with.
- [69:11]
Tucker Halpern
It's like a healthy energy rather than something else.
- [69:14]
Rich Roll
And then it's like mate tea.
- [69:15]
Tucker Halpern
No, it is mate tea. It's mate tea. It's really good.
- [69:18]
Rich Roll
When did you start? When did you start this?
- [69:21]
Tucker Halpern
So it's actually, we got involved a few years ago. It's originally a cachaca company. So it's the alcohol. That is a Brazilian rum that you make out of sugar cane. And you put in a caipirinha, which is like the Brazilian national drink. And Sophie as a sober person basically was like, look, I love this company. I love the mission. And they plant a lot of, they're doing a lot of reforestation in the rainforest in Brazil. And Sophie was like, but I'm sober and I feel a little uncomfortable representing an alcohol company. And everyone was like, makes sense. But she said, but can we make a non alcoholic, you know, part of it? And like something that she can really get behind? And so that's.
- [70:08]
Sophie Hollyweld
So that's what Novo4 yeah. One of the things that I love about it is that we have an alcoholic version of this. And so you really feel like you're participating in the same way when you have this. But then Tucker has the alcoholic version that's slightly different and it's a different color. But we're still like at the same party having the best time ever, not feeling like we're in totally separate planets.
- [70:42]
Rich Roll
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- [72:59]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I actually stopped foam rolling, though. It turns out it's not very good for me. But we have a yoga mat, we have weights, do a little workout. We have protein bars.
- [73:11]
Tucker Halpern
It also depends if it's what type of show we're doing. So our live show will really get fully sweaty and warmed up before the show starts so that we come out right away on a DJ set. It's a little more casual, a little less preparation because we don't have to put our bodies through as much. So it depends. But I've even started doing vocal warmups recently because I'm singing a little bit more. But Sophie's really good about that.
- [73:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I guess. The rider does range a lot. I mean, we have a pretty extensive rider during our live show.
- [73:44]
Tucker Halpern
It's like avocados and pulled chicken, olive oil, full meals. We just make little meals.
- [73:54]
Rich Roll
Are the stagehand guys like, are you sure this is volume one?
- [73:59]
Tucker Halpern
But which volume?
- [73:59]
Rich Roll
I can hook you up. I got a guy. Was it 2000? So you're back from the wheelchair experience. You're back in New York. And how long was it before the Apple thing? Cause that was really like kind of your first break, right? That's correct.
- [74:15]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [74:15]
Sophie Hollyweld
I had just gotten out of the wheelchair and then we put it on SoundCloud and Apple reached out to us and said, hey, we want to put your song in a commercial. And we just looked at each other and we're like, is this a real Apple email? What is this? Is this a joke?
- [74:29]
Tucker Halpern
Was like punking us because it was through a different. You didn't have like Apple or anything, which I guess I don't know if everyone could have a Apple. I don't know. We were shocked.
- [74:41]
Sophie Hollyweld
It's real.
- [74:41]
Rich Roll
It was. How long had it been on? Was it getting a lot of activity there?
- [74:44]
Tucker Halpern
I think a couple weeks.
- [74:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
Not much.
- [74:45]
Tucker Halpern
It was getting activity. It was. Because back then it was early Spotify streaming days, so. So it was basically, there's a lot of blogs on the Internet and people had these tastemaker blogs and there was an aggregate called Hype Machine. And basically if a bunch of blogs were posting about your song, it would go to this aggregate list. And if it gets to number one, a lot of people it was sort of a tastemakery thing to pay attention to, but I was really paying attention to it a lot. And Drinky went to the top of it for, like, the full amount of time it could, and then went back on the list and went to the top again. And we were like, something's going on here. But it didn't, like, have, you know, compared to a standard today, it had no. Nothing. But at the time, we were like, something's bubbling, but we didn't know where to start. We didn't have a manager. We didn't have a lawyer. We didn't have anything. So we got this email and we. We were like, we need a lawyer. Like, they're gonna send over a contract. We don't know what any of this means.
- [75:52]
Rich Roll
Right.
- [75:53]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And, you know, it was real. We were able to pay rent suddenly, so I stopped looking for other jobs. And then we just kind of went full force and started being really relentless.
- [76:04]
Rich Roll
So that was. What year was that?
- [76:06]
Sophie Hollyweld
2016.
- [76:08]
Tucker Halpern
And the following year, I think it was 2015. And then it got nominated.
- [76:14]
Rich Roll
It got a Grammy nomination for Dance.
- [76:15]
Tucker Halpern
Record of the year. And it was the.
- [76:19]
Sophie Hollyweld
And this was the song that we made during college.
- [76:22]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [76:22]
Sophie Hollyweld
Where I had never played the electric guitar before, and it was a Portuguese poem.
- [76:26]
Rich Roll
So. Yes. You've been doing it 10 years. And. And maybe I was a little overly excited about compressing the timeline, but that's still like. Like, literally the thing you made, you know, quickly in college that I'm sure you iterated on and improved before you, you know, before it became what it became. But, like, that. That gets knocked for a Grammy.
- [76:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [76:46]
Rich Roll
And you guys figured that out before you even really knew each other.
- [76:49]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. Yeah. That was a crazy moment. We were doing a music video shoot on the day we found out, and we didn't know it was even entered in the running. We didn't know it was a possibility. Never in our wildest dreams. And I looked at my phone after some scene in a shoot, and it said, like, 300 texts or something.
- [77:13]
Sophie Hollyweld
And I was like, I remember walking up to Tucker.
- [77:15]
Rich Roll
So you weren't even thinking that that could be.
- [77:19]
Tucker Halpern
The nominations were coming out. It was not on our radar. We were just trying to, like, have people know who we were somehow.
- [77:27]
Rich Roll
What was it like to go to the Grammys for the first time?
- [77:31]
Sophie Hollyweld
It was terrifying.
- [77:33]
Tucker Halpern
Really?
- [77:34]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [77:34]
Tucker Halpern
Why?
- [77:35]
Sophie Hollyweld
Well, because I'd never, like, posed on a red carpet before. I found that very intimidating.
- [77:42]
Tucker Halpern
We were at an event.
- [77:43]
Rich Roll
That's shocking now.
- [77:44]
Tucker Halpern
It's not. We were at an event last night.
- [77:45]
Rich Roll
This is the most fashion forward. Like, you're made for this shit.
- [77:49]
Sophie Hollyweld
You have no idea how much that is not a true statement.
- [77:55]
Tucker Halpern
When we started the band she hates, she literally like, was like, I don't like fashion. I don't think it's good for the world.
- [78:03]
Rich Roll
That is shocking.
- [78:05]
Tucker Halpern
You're not interested.
- [78:06]
Rich Roll
You're all about the fashion.
- [78:07]
Tucker Halpern
I'm not interested.
- [78:07]
Rich Roll
Oh my God, I love that.
- [78:08]
Sophie Hollyweld
That's what it looks like.
- [78:09]
Tucker Halpern
I kind of like fashion. Like, I would like try to do a dual RISD Brown fashion program thing that I couldn't do because of basketball.
- [78:18]
Rich Roll
So the art thing was there.
- [78:20]
Tucker Halpern
It was like always in the back of my mind. But everything was back burnered for basketball. I was definitely not like the typical athlete, but it was different. You know, athletes all wore like the same sports teams, hoodies and sweatpants and stuff. And I didn't. And my coach was kind of like, why don't you hang out and dress like the guys more? And I was just little more. I don't know.
- [78:44]
Rich Roll
The seeds. The seeds were there.
- [78:45]
Tucker Halpern
The seeds were there.
- [78:47]
Sophie Hollyweld
Like, did you notice even when we walked in that I. I asked Tucker, like this shirt or this shirt, like this pants or this pants. Like, he's kind of.
- [78:55]
Tucker Halpern
No, no, no, no. I. I've. I've made. When I look back on things, I've made some horrors.
- [79:01]
Sophie Hollyweld
Okay. Yeah, that is also true.
- [79:02]
Rich Roll
If you're going to be fashion forward, you know, a lot of it's not going to age well.
- [79:07]
Tucker Halpern
That's true.
- [79:08]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [79:08]
Tucker Halpern
That's what I try to do.
- [79:09]
Rich Roll
That just goes with the game, Right.
- [79:11]
Tucker Halpern
When I see old photos, I try to make that argument. It could get rough.
- [79:15]
Rich Roll
But anyway, you're at the Grammys and you're overwhelmed by it.
- [79:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, Well, I think the experience of going to the Grammys, watching the Grammys, being around all these other artists, that was really cool. For me, the thing that was intimidating and just scary was the red carpet and the dressing up and the posing. That's which. Honestly, it's funny that it feels like that is me, but it still makes me uncomfortable.
- [79:41]
Tucker Halpern
Last night we were.
- [79:42]
Rich Roll
There's the contrived nature of like what that process is like to walk those carpets and stand there.
- [79:49]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, it's weird.
- [79:51]
Rich Roll
But the fashion piece though, like, just the way you kind of like, you know, rock it out. Like, to me, I would have assumed that that was sort of a natural thing for you.
- [80:00]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, no, it's definitely new and I definitely get a lot of help on purpose because I Feel like I could walk out of the door and just wear things that I would deeply regret. And actually, in many ways, at both of the Grammys that we went to, I kind of regret what I wore, actually. And I remember being like, oh, yeah, let's try that new hairstyle that looks good on that person. And then they did it. And then I walked the red carpet and I looked at pictures. I was like, I should have never tried a new thing on such a sort of visible moment. But will we learn? Yeah, it's always a learning. Like, even last night we went to a red carpet and as we were in the car, I was thinking, oh, it would be important maybe to figure out how to pose, you know, in these jeans, you know? And then I got there, I was like, ah, too late. Whatever, I don't care. But I was kind of uncomfortable and I was kind of posing weird. And it's just. It's very unnatural for me. And it's something that you actually do.
- [80:57]
Rich Roll
I think it's good, though, that it maintains its unnatural quality. If it starts becoming too natural, then I think maybe that's considered the worst part of those.
- [81:06]
Tucker Halpern
The photographers are like, who are you? They're like, why should I care? And I'm like, I don't know. Let me just walk. I don't know. Or you walk by all the people doing interviews and they just don't want to talk to you. Okay.
- [81:21]
Rich Roll
Because someone more important is like, welcome.
- [81:25]
Tucker Halpern
To Los Angeles, basically.
- [81:28]
Rich Roll
So, yeah, you went twice because you got. You had an album nominated in 2019, right?
- [81:32]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [81:33]
Rich Roll
So you've been twice nominated. Now you have something like 3 billion streams or some crazy number that you can't wrap your head around.
- [81:42]
Sophie Hollyweld
Like, it is something crazy that I can't wrap my head around. Yeah.
- [81:45]
Rich Roll
What were the other kind of. Were there other big kind of like breakthrough inflection point moments or has it just been the grind of, you know, like the relentless sort of grind of building upon each little.
- [81:59]
Tucker Halpern
I feel like in a sort of era of, like, viral things, we have been kind of on, like a slow growth, you know, I mean, slow, relative, you know, I'm sure it's not slow slow, but like, there was never a crazy moment when all of a sudden we had a number one hit and things were crazy. Yeah, it's been really like a. We're growing this community. We're figuring out who we are slowly, you know, like, even with clothes or even. Even with how we act or anything, how we eat. I wasn't gluten free when we started. There's so many things that I feel like we're learning about ourselves and it contributes to our growth in different ways.
- [82:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I kind of feel like the most recent tour we did was an inflection point, but not in a really big explosion kind of way. It was more just that I feel it solidified what we're about to the people who came to the show. And so we just finished the North American live show tour for our album Bread. And we put so much into this show. I mean, it was more production and sort of volume quality of everything. I mean, we just put a lot into. And it felt like the entire audience came dressed up like, ready to have the time of their life. We got to talk to a lot of people at, like, the VIP thing before the shows and kind of hear from them about what the album meant to them. And it was just internally, I think, a really big inflection point because we got to actually see how our message has been translating. And it just feels like it's very cohesive or intentional. Yeah, it feels like it's making sense right now.
- [83:56]
Rich Roll
People are finally sort of able to make sense of it in their own minds. Yeah. It felt like from an outsider looking in, who knows nothing. Like it was a leveling up year. Like, you did like the Today. You were New York when you launched. You were. You did the Today show.
- [84:11]
Tucker Halpern
Right?
- [84:12]
Rich Roll
Or like one of those morning shows. And like the video that you made going down, you know, like on the street with all, like, all of that felt like, oh, this is entering like a more kind of mainstream awareness, consciousness level with what you're doing and all the, like Times Square billboards and all that kind of stuff that came with that.
- [84:30]
Tucker Halpern
It's felt good. Yeah. Like, it just keeps sort of growing. And I think for me, I don't know, I have trouble reflecting. I just. Not trouble. It's cool. When we do it, I just don't do it much.
- [84:43]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [84:43]
Tucker Halpern
Cause I don't remember anything that happened. But, like, I'm always looking to keep the momentum and, like, what's next is just how I feel. Like I'm built, which I think is not good for some things, but also it keeps the shit moving. And so I'm always thinking like, okay, we just finished that tour, you know, I can't wait to the next bigger tour. You know, that should. And I don't know if you're always thinking like that.
- [85:15]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I think we're a little bit different in this way.
- [85:17]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [85:18]
Sophie Hollyweld
I definitely also think about what's Next. But I think maybe I reflect more or probably. Yeah.
- [85:27]
Tucker Halpern
I don't know.
- [85:28]
Sophie Hollyweld
But I kind of feel like we do also pause, you know, to just be like, this is really cool. Like this is something that we dreamed of and now we're doing it.
- [85:36]
Rich Roll
I'm glad you do that. Like just the word pause in and of itself, like it doesn't. Cause when you look at like your life, it doesn't look like there's any pause.
- [85:44]
Tucker Halpern
I don't know if pause is the right word.
- [85:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
Well, I. I also feel like there's a surprising amount of pause. Like the schedule looks crazy, but I feel very. I don't feel crazy at all. Like I. I used to feel crazy, but I feel like you caught on a good.
- [86:00]
Rich Roll
Because you acclimated to it or you found a way to like be a quantumist amidst all of it.
- [86:06]
Tucker Halpern
Or like 30 tonight when we finish our.
- [86:08]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, I'm being totally serious.
- [86:10]
Rich Roll
I hope you're gonna sleep a little bit before you have to go on stage at 1 o'clock in the morning tonight.
- [86:15]
Tucker Halpern
No, but then the problem, the real problem is we get off at 3 and our plane takes off at 6 to go to New York. And then we land and you lose the time and then we play when we get there.
- [86:26]
Sophie Hollyweld
Okay. So I used to freak out.
- [86:30]
Tucker Halpern
Call her, then see how she answers.
- [86:32]
Sophie Hollyweld
I used to freak out about that all the time. And I used to be like, oh my God, I'm only getting three hours of sleep tonight. I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out. I don't feel, oh my God. But now I keep this log and I've been keeping it for a while. And I think sleep tracking is really dangerous for me because I get really obsessed with the numbers.
- [86:51]
Rich Roll
It would just be in the red all the time. Yeah.
- [86:53]
Sophie Hollyweld
The truth is, yeah. I do count how many hours I sleep and the quality of my sleep. And I look at it only after a week has passed. And then I know over the course of seven days how much I've slept on average. And every single week, week, I always sleep the same amount. That's what's so crazy. Over a seven day period of time, I'm always between 7.5 to 8.5 hours a night. Whether I have a week where I'm sleeping, you know, consistently eight hours a.
- [87:26]
Rich Roll
Night or whether I'm having a 3, 4, 5, 12.
- [87:30]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [87:30]
Sophie Hollyweld
And so I kind of stopped freaking out about the three hour a night thing a while ago once I realized that my, my body always recalibrates and we'll figure it out. And I haven't gotten sick in a long time. I feel really healthy. I feel like we do have moments to pause, even doing things like going to the float tank. These are these moments where I feel like we do have a lot of space in our life to pause and just be like, wow, we just sold out the Santa Barbara Bowl. That's so cool, because we opened Ferro DEZ at the Santa Barbara bowl four years ago, and that was always a dream of ours. And now we're here. And I've always wanted to. To be on the Rich Roll podcast, and now we're here. I mean, that's so cool, actually.
- [88:09]
Rich Roll
True.
- [88:10]
Tucker Halpern
This is like a pitchy moment.
- [88:11]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, it is.
- [88:12]
Rich Roll
Come on.
- [88:13]
Sophie Hollyweld
I'm dead serious.
- [88:13]
Tucker Halpern
No, not kidding.
- [88:15]
Rich Roll
I reached out to you thinking they're not gonna come.
- [88:18]
Tucker Halpern
Is it a bro?
- [88:19]
Rich Roll
I freaked out.
- [88:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
I was like, we've been talking about.
- [88:21]
Tucker Halpern
You for six, seven years. Like, a long time. Yeah, a really long time.
- [88:28]
Rich Roll
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. I'm curious about how the business of it all works. The music business has changed so much and continues to change. Like, how does it all work? Like, what's. What's fact, what's fiction? I mean, my sense is touring is now, like, that's how you do it. You're not doing it on album sales. And we've all heard what streaming revenue is on. On these platforms. And you have to diversify. You've got like, you know, we have this Novo Fogo and you've got like, merch and all kinds of other stuff. But, like, how do you think about it? What is the brass tacks of the sort of business economic end of how it is that you do what you do.
- [89:14]
Tucker Halpern
There's a lot of ways to do it, I think, and it depends on the genre of music is really different. The industries are completely different. How things are handled, how contracts are handled, when you get paid, depending on if you're like in pop or hip hop or dance. And we're kind of, you know, in dance and pop and alternative somewhere, you know, in there more in dance than the other. But I would say for us, an interesting thing is you don't really make money touring as a band. When we DJing, you know, there's much less overhead. So we can go with a USB stick and headphones. We can go to a club, there's already lights, and you just maybe bring a USB to give to a visual person, and then you have a full show, and that doesn't cost much. And so you can take home more money DJing for sure. But the live show, you're pretty much losing. We were losing money touring for the first four years.
- [90:18]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [90:19]
Tucker Halpern
And the reason we were able, just.
- [90:21]
Rich Roll
Because all the cost and the transpo and the people, the crew and the.
- [90:26]
Tucker Halpern
All the lights, even when we were starting, our first headline tore out. We had done like three opening tours, which, you know, you're barely getting by, if anything. And we're like following some band on a tour bus in like a rented Chrysler Town and Country with one other person with us who's a sound guy and a tour manager. We put up things, break it down before the shows on stage in front of people, like, you know, we're sharing a room, like those things. And then. Then the reason we were able to do all this and lose money on it as an investment was because we were sinking, which is like the commercials.
- [91:09]
Rich Roll
Right. So the licensing is a huge. Sort of powering the whole thing.
- [91:13]
Tucker Halpern
I would say four or five years. 90% of our income was from licensing.
- [91:18]
Rich Roll
I looked on IMDb, you guys have like 31 credits of your stuff showing up in movies and TV.
- [91:24]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, yeah. It turns out that we make music that.
- [91:27]
Tucker Halpern
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [91:28]
Sophie Hollyweld
Works really well in licensing, which isn't always the case also for people. But, you know, so far, knock on wood, it's. It's served us really well.
- [91:37]
Tucker Halpern
I think it was in 2018, we got in a. We were nominated for best licensing artist in the top five in like, the world. And other artists were like Katy Perry and like some huge. And we were like, this is so weird.
- [91:53]
Sophie Hollyweld
That's cool.
- [91:54]
Tucker Halpern
And our manager, so sort of like.
- [91:56]
Rich Roll
Quietly the money maker while you go do your other stuff.
- [91:59]
Tucker Halpern
And our manager, who's like an old school, really great guy, was like, just so you know, it's not always gonna be like this. It's like pop music. There's like, you're hot.
- [92:10]
Rich Roll
You're the new kids.
- [92:11]
Tucker Halpern
Among all the licensing directors and all these shows and Netflix and all these places. And one day, you know, it's gonna be some other new band that they're all excited about and it's not gonna always be like this, but for us, it was like that for a little while. And luckily, you know, we grew our touring and invested enough in it so that once you get. He always used to say, when you get to a thousand cap rooms, you're going to start being able to make money on touring. And because we're crazy and we always want the best show ever. When we got to a thousand cap.
- [92:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
Room, we Wanted lasers.
- [92:48]
Tucker Halpern
We need lasers. We need dancers. We need this. So then he's like, okay, when you get to 5,000 capacity rooms and we kind of keep being ridiculous, it's like.
- [92:57]
Rich Roll
The Wall street investment banker who keeps like, well, when I get to the. You know, but just keeps buying more and more shit.
- [93:03]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, like, oh, yeah, I'll be rich when I make this much money. But your house now cost a million dollars a year. And so I think for us it's worth it because we want to invest in the artistry and keep growing it. And I think a lot of people, people maybe, you know, will make those artistic decisions because of. They want to make money on a certain tour and then they kind of get stuck in that level of capacity rooms. And, you know, sometimes it's the right move, but sometimes for us it was more. It's more important to like, make the best show possible. Possible.
- [93:40]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Because ultimately that's the investment that you're making for the longer game.
- [93:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
And it does pay off, you know, then a festival offer will come and they'll be like, well, your show is so big, you know, just visually it's so big that it can actually fit in this stage. And so then you get a good offer for that festival.
- [93:57]
Tucker Halpern
I think they look at it a little more, numbers wise. So they'll say, okay, you sold 15,000 tickets in this city, like hard tickets just for you. And then they'll sort of calculate and be like, okay, this was worth this much for a festival. And festival sets do pay a lot more than like a headline show, but you do the headline show to show the festival bookers in that region your pull, basically.
- [94:24]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So you have a team, you have a lawyer, you have a manager. You've got, you know, all the kind of typical people that a band of your kind of, you know, size and stature would have. You're on a label, right?
- [94:35]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yes.
- [94:36]
Tucker Halpern
Are you kind of independent?
- [94:38]
Rich Roll
You're independent, so you're doing it without. That's interesting.
- [94:41]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [94:42]
Rich Roll
You were on a label previously. Like, I was kind of like, I just went on YouTube and put your name in to see, like, what videos would show up that aren't on your channel. And I saw some really big videos with a lot of views that were like, on a label channel. And I just assumed that was your label, but that was your previous label.
- [94:57]
Sophie Hollyweld
Well, so kind of. But basically that was our previous label, X Us. So we were signed to Ultra, but not in the United States.
- [95:05]
Rich Roll
I see.
- [95:06]
Sophie Hollyweld
We had a distribution deal with them in the US but we were technically independent in the US So we were on Ultra for the rest of the world. And so we would upload our YouTube videos with them, for instance. But it did mean that we had a very different situation, you know, financially and also artistically, because we've always been able to call the shots. Because if we're independent in the US we're like, okay, we want to release X song, you know, in a month or whatever, and then the rest of the world kind of has to follow suit and we get to play, you know, I don't know, point guard, if that's sort of metaphor. Yeah, yeah.
- [95:44]
Rich Roll
So then you own your masters.
- [95:46]
Tucker Halpern
Yes.
- [95:47]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Which is huge.
- [95:48]
Tucker Halpern
Just licensed them out.
- [95:49]
Rich Roll
And you've been able to do this.
- [95:51]
Tucker Halpern
Already from earlier without, like.
- [95:53]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's. That's very cool.
- [95:55]
Tucker Halpern
I didn't know the really interesting thing about that move. And this was all our manager, who's the best guy ever? Neil Harris. Just a great dude. And I don't know if we're, like, divulging too much, but, I mean, this is all. No, I mean, this is what it is or what it was. We're not in this deal anymore.
- [96:12]
Rich Roll
I'm just interested in, like, how an artist thinks about, like, their own rights and what they're creating and how much control they are able to exert over, like, you know, how it's distributed and everything that comes with that.
- [96:25]
Tucker Halpern
That's always been really important to us. I think we've always wanted to call the creative decisions, and I think for what we do, it makes most sense for us to do that. Some people, it probably does make more sense to be on a major label who can pull the levers to, like, make you have the biggest radio hit in the world, you know, like, we might not be able to do certain things like that without a lot of help. Or, like, we could go out and hire people on our own with our own money, but, like, we don't necessarily have all the power behind it. But the interesting thing about that deal with Ultra was because we were sinking like crazy, especially at that time with commercials and movies and things, because we did not sign to any label in the US and all of the syncing, not all. I'd say 98% of the syncing opportunities that came to us were from the United States.
- [97:25]
Rich Roll
You could keep all that money.
- [97:26]
Tucker Halpern
We keep the master and the publishing side. If we had signed, we wouldn't have known this, but if we had signed, like most people would have with Ultra Worldwide, we would have had 50% of that income, they would have gotten 50% of every single one of those sinks. Wow. So, like, that's a lot different.
- [97:47]
Rich Roll
That is a lot. That is a lot. And you've already done a lot of the hard work that a band would rely upon a label to do early in your career to kind of get you to where you're at. And obviously, I'm sure there's still. If you were to go with a label, there are certain levers that they could pull that could probably accelerate, like, you know, your trajectory or whatever. And I would imagine, especially with the latest album like, that they're knocking. I'm sure you're getting, you know, approached for that.
- [98:18]
Sophie Hollyweld
I mean, we talk about it all the time, because right now we're on. Or actually. Actually, we're not on anything right now because we did a deal with Virgin, who is the independent arm of Universal. So technically, we're still independent artists. I don't know, the verbiage is a.
- [98:35]
Rich Roll
Little bit distribution deal, an output deal.
- [98:39]
Sophie Hollyweld
Exactly.
- [98:39]
Tucker Halpern
But they also, to give them more credit, there's a bunch of really smart people at Virgin, and they help a lot.
- [98:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
And Ultra also was extremely good to us. Had incredible experiences, honestly, in our entire business, like, from management to label to. We've had a really amazing experience with people that we've gotten to work with.
- [99:01]
Rich Roll
But this means that you both have to be entrepreneurs, right? Because when you're considering a tour, like, you're responsible for the outlay, right? Like, you've got to underwrite this thing. You're not looking. A label's not taking care of that stuff. That's on you guys. Like, that is a lot. That's a lot.
- [99:17]
Tucker Halpern
The music video, the album artwork.
- [99:19]
Rich Roll
You pay for all of it.
- [99:20]
Sophie Hollyweld
Everything. Yeah.
- [99:21]
Tucker Halpern
Like, we kind of went nuts on this most recent album, Bread, because we had such a clear vision of what we wanted to do artistically and for the music videos. And we.
- [99:32]
Sophie Hollyweld
We spent a lot of money.
- [99:33]
Tucker Halpern
We spent a lot of money on it, and I don't regret it at all. And, you know, I think that was part of the leveling up this year that felt like we were really, you know, doing it to the next level. And for us, as an independent artist, that's, you know, investing in ourselves. Cause also, the deals are just bank loans otherwise.
- [99:55]
Rich Roll
Right.
- [99:56]
Tucker Halpern
You know, if someone else is paying for it, you're paying them back.
- [99:58]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I know, I know. But you don't think of it that way. And so you're not as cost conscious.
- [100:04]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, it's easier not to upfront the Money.
- [100:07]
Rich Roll
Right. It's your cash.
- [100:09]
Tucker Halpern
It's easier on your life.
- [100:10]
Rich Roll
But that even makes it more impressive when you're like, all right, we're at this level of venue, like, we're gonna up our production. Production. You know, like, you're. That's. You're. You're incurring that risk.
- [100:19]
Tucker Halpern
It's definitely a risk that we take. Yeah.
- [100:22]
Rich Roll
Wow. And how much does these other kind of, like, ancillary streams come into play, like, merch and sponsor deals with brands and things like that? Like, that's. I mean, you guys are like, do you have a CEO, like, who manages all of this stuff? Because you're. Especially when you're not sleeping and you're playing every single night. Like. Like, there's a lot of business that has to get transacted.
- [100:44]
Tucker Halpern
There's a lot of business.
- [100:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [100:46]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. We have our manager, Neil, who's kind of, you know, I would say, overseeing everything. We have awesome agents at WME who, you know, some are our show agents, some are our partnership agents, some are our private agents. Privates are another thing. If you're just talking business for artists.
- [101:06]
Rich Roll
That, like, playing the. Playing. Like flying to Dubai and playing some birthday party.
- [101:12]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yes, but it's not just to Dubai.
- [101:15]
Tucker Halpern
There's really wealthy people everywhere, and a lot of them like to party and have shows.
- [101:20]
Rich Roll
That's the other quiet.
- [101:21]
Tucker Halpern
They don't want to go to a concert. They want to bring their own concert. And that is a huge income stream for a lot of artists. And, you know, you don't post about it on socials because it's a private thing and people don't necessarily know that. Like, the days off when it looks like the schedule you saw, I don't think it had the privates on there because maybe it did.
- [101:41]
Sophie Hollyweld
It did. That was my private scotch.
- [101:42]
Tucker Halpern
That was the private. You got the real show?
- [101:44]
Rich Roll
I got the real one.
- [101:45]
Sophie Hollyweld
Well, I just keep that for my friends so they know where I am. They're like, hey, want to hang out? I'm like, here, let me just send you something.
- [101:51]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah.
- [101:51]
Rich Roll
So in the kind of pie, like what. Like, how does it break down percentage wise? Like, the private party thing, like that is. That's a, you know, on the larger end of the percentage.
- [102:05]
Tucker Halpern
I wouldn't say at this point. Point, we. We were just doing a lot of scheduling for next year, and it depends on the year. Like, this year we had an album, so we did our live show touring, and that takes like three or four months off the table for big DJ gigs, festival gigs, and Privates for the most part because we're kind of investing that time and building the brand. So like we're not making as much money in those months as we would have if we didn't do that tour. But in the long run I think we are. But so like this year I don't know what the pie would be for percentages.
- [102:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
I mean, I do know what it is. I looked at it recently, but is.
- [102:49]
Rich Roll
There a pie I'd be interested in, like how much of it is revenue from the streaming platforms?
- [102:58]
Sophie Hollyweld
So it's a surprise. Large amount for us actually. Yeah.
- [103:02]
Tucker Halpern
Because we own it.
- [103:03]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. We didn't expect it to be as big as it was actually. And that was a really exciting moment for us actually when we saw that streaming is paying off.
- [103:13]
Tucker Halpern
But a lot of it was like the catalog, like it's not just like the new songs we put out now that, you know, have. I don't know.
- [103:20]
Rich Roll
And that catalog just increases in value with every new contribution to it.
- [103:25]
Sophie Hollyweld
And I'm sure, you know, in the olden days it would have been more and obviously different, but I think, you know, we kind of.
- [103:31]
Rich Roll
But you would have had to have been on a label and you would be splitting that up with a lot of people.
- [103:36]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, it's different. Who knows if we ever would have. In the olden days, you know, the only artists who you would get introduced to were people that labels, you know, paid the radio stations to play and there's only a certain amount of them that would get signed. I don't think they would have signed a Portuguese singing guitar dance music band. So I don't, you know. Yes, if we had a Grammy nominated album in the time of CDs and vinyls, we would have made a lot more money. Would we have had that?
- [104:10]
Rich Roll
You wouldn't have had.
- [104:12]
Tucker Halpern
I don't think so. Yeah, so like. Yeah, yeah, you can't really.
- [104:15]
Rich Roll
Yeah. How do you think about like those platforms like Spotify, Amazon, you know, Apple Music, all of those, like I'm sure you have relationships at all of those places. I was just at a event the other day for Spotify. Like they put on this whole thing at the headquarters here in la. They're introducing all these new tools for podcasters and the creator economy and they put on a huge show and it's like impressive to see a company who's thinking about these things and trying to iterate. But I also am well aware that anything they're introducing is benefiting them more than it's like they're creating a Better experience for the audience. They're creating these tools for their creators, but ultimately it's about, like, growing their platform and their premium subscriber base. Right. So you need them because they're what's spreading everything out into the world. How do you kind of, like, think about those relationships?
- [105:15]
Sophie Hollyweld
I don't think too much about the sort of technology and the changing technology, because I just don't feel like I could keep up. But. But I think we just try to have really good relationships, period, across the board. And our team is amazing. We just have really great people working for us and making sure that we're giving attention to all of our different relationships. And their fingers are on the pulse in terms of what's happening with Amazon. Music versus Apple, music versus. Oh, actually, in this country, Deezer has a bigger market share, so let's make sure that we're super serving them. And I think, you know, Tuck and I, for the most part, are just kind of like, we're here to, like, we love running business.
- [106:04]
Rich Roll
You're focused on doing the important thing, which is like, focusing on your music.
- [106:08]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And we've delegated, you know, thinking about the technology and the pulse and the market shares and that kind of thing to some really smart people, and then we do our best to keep up. And it's. It's a lot. It can be a lot because, you know, there's, like, at any given time, just so many different partners to be sort of paying attention to and super serving to the point where we also have to sometimes push back and be like, if we did all of this, we would have no time for making music. So we simply cannot spend our time doing this. Even though on a business, the bigger.
- [106:39]
Rich Roll
You get, the more, like, kind of onerous that'll become. Right. All the pressure to do all those other things.
- [106:44]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [106:45]
Tucker Halpern
And I think in terms of, you know, the. The types of deals that they have and the percentages they take in those things. Like, also. You also can go on your phone and look up any song in, like, the world and listen to it.
- [107:02]
Rich Roll
Right. It's crazy.
- [107:03]
Tucker Halpern
Pretty cool.
- [107:04]
Rich Roll
Like, our youngest. Our youngest daughter, like, she listens to all kinds of stuff that, like, when I was that age, it's just, like, to your point, like, yeah, it's like, oh, my friend's older brother gave me a Steve Miller album or something like that. Now the entire Encyclopedia of Music is available, and young people are being exposed to so many genres, and they're not limiting themselves to any one of them.
- [107:31]
Tucker Halpern
And I think they're seeing the trends of the past few years have also been. A lot of older music is having more streams than new music, like the Padres chart of new releases compared to sort of legacy catalogs. The legacy catalogs are growing. And it's just. It is what it is.
- [107:50]
Rich Roll
It's super interesting.
- [107:52]
Tucker Halpern
It's cool. I think, you know, what is your.
- [107:54]
Rich Roll
Advice to young, creative musicians who are at the start of their journey with this? Like, what mistakes did you make? Or what should people look out for? What should they worry about and not worry about?
- [108:07]
Tucker Halpern
I think. I mean, I've said this before, but make music you love. I think too many people make music that's like a hot genre right now, and it sounds like what the successful people are doing. And if I had listened to a, I don't know, Calvin Harris song and tried to make something that sounded just like that, it would be worse. He's the best at that, so why would you want to compete with that? You know? So for us to come out and make something that sounded like nothing else else, it was sort of just what we made. It just sort of happened to be what we make. But I think that was one of the reasons it cut through and was able to penetrate the world, because it wasn't being like, oh, is this better than this giant Calvin Harris hit? Or, you know, it wasn't being compared to those things. And if you're not being compared to those things, it can just be good on its own. So if you make something you love that's unique and different, that would be. I think that's the best way to do it because there's so much stuff and people are so good. Like, people are so good at making music so much better than we are. Like, there's so many talented people, but a lot of people are trying to make things that sound the same.
- [109:23]
Rich Roll
Right. But then you're sort of involving yourself in, like, a competition, right? Like a competitive mindset. And, like, you're an athlete. I'm sure you're very competitive and you want to win, right? So. But you have to let go a little bit of that, right? And just be like, I'm not competing against Calvin Harris or anyone else. I'm basically competing with myself to bring voice to whatever is unique about me.
- [109:49]
Tucker Halpern
Also, the dance music world specifically is really inclusive. Everyone's kind of friends with everyone. Yes. I'm sure everyone inside has a little bit of I want to be the biggest or best or competitiveness. But people are really like, oh, they're popping off, collaborate, you know, like, the people are pretty supportive of each other. That I found surprising coming out of sports and coming out of, like, schools. Honestly, that is really cool. Also, the other thing I realized, coming from basketball, you go out to play a game and there's a whole other team trying to make you lose. And often there's half the fans trying to make you lose. You go out and play a concert, everyone wants you to win. There's, like no other team trying to make you lose. Things can go wrong, but it's pretty much.
- [110:40]
Rich Roll
And you can win every night.
- [110:41]
Tucker Halpern
You can win every night.
- [110:42]
Rich Roll
And it's always a home team advantage, basically, no matter where you are.
- [110:46]
Sophie Hollyweld
Unless you're, like, opening for. What if we've opened for some really funny people where we're going right before. Oh, my God. Do you remember that one in New Orleans, who were we right before? Marilyn Manson.
- [110:57]
Tucker Halpern
Yes.
- [110:58]
Rich Roll
Oh, my God, you opened for Marilyn Manson.
- [111:00]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [111:01]
Tucker Halpern
Basically, it was a fest. Voodoo.
- [111:02]
Sophie Hollyweld
We were right before that.
- [111:03]
Tucker Halpern
It was a long time ago, early on, and there was like four layers of Marilyn Manson fans in the front waiting for him to play after us. They were looking at us. So just. Yeah, unimpressed is the right word.
- [111:19]
Sophie Hollyweld
We've definitely had moments like that. It's not really like a home game then. But that's true.
- [111:24]
Tucker Halpern
It's not always that perfect. So you can get put in some bad suits, situations, but you know what I mean, you know, and if you're.
- [111:31]
Rich Roll
The opening act, it's an away game.
- [111:33]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. It depends on who you're opening for, too.
- [111:36]
Tucker Halpern
It's true.
- [111:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
For sure.
- [111:37]
Tucker Halpern
Sorry, go ahead. Just the other thing that I like to make the comparison to is in basketball or any sport, if you're an amazing basketball player, it doesn't matter if you're an asshole. It doesn't matter if you people like being around you. It doesn't matter if you're a good teammate. Like, if you're the best player you're gonna play, you're gonna be on the court. And in this, I noticed it helps a lot to be a good person. It helps a lot to be someone people wanna be around. Like all those intangibles, I think can get you really far in this compared to in athletics, because it's just about production and it's not exactly like that with music. So I've really. I learned that early and I thought that was pretty exciting because I can use other skills that I've, you know, developed my whole life to, to help us in this that are unrelated to music.
- [112:37]
Rich Roll
Yeah. What do you Think, Sophie, in terms of, like, advice you would give to your younger self or a younger artist, whether it's a musician or some other kind of, like, creative pursuit that you've.
- [112:50]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I mean, I would definitely encourage collaboration in this case, you know, I. I would encourage my younger self to say yes to collaborating with Tucker.
- [112:59]
Tucker Halpern
We got there.
- [113:00]
Sophie Hollyweld
We got there eventually. And I think we've seen a lot of young artists or just sort of people that are starting out as artists when they do embrace collaboration and working with other people and sort of sharing ideas and getting inspired by other people, that it's really, really worked for them. And we have also seen artists that sort of gatekeep and get really fearful of, like, their ideas being taken or, like, you know, when they're not open to collaboration and they're not, like, going into it with an open heart. And that has hurt a lot of people and a lot of friends, actually, that we've seen along the way. And I think, like Tucker said, these intangibles, you know, there's a lot of people that we got to work with early on. For the first couple years, we were, you know, we were not making money and they took a chance on us because we had good relationships and they believed in us as human beings. And I'm sure those people would not have stuck it out for those first couple years had we, you know, been assholes. So just relationships are huge in our industry, and people want to work with.
- [114:07]
Rich Roll
Like, people that they like and who are respectful.
- [114:10]
Sophie Hollyweld
It's really cool.
- [114:11]
Tucker Halpern
You'll hear about. You'll hear. Hear about the people who aren't nice. And it's simple. It's like we're all playing the same venues, we're all playing the same festivals, all the same crew members are working all the same festivals and venues. If you're, you know, if you're a dick, they're gonna.
- [114:26]
Rich Roll
That's gonna get around quick. Yeah, everybody's gonna know.
- [114:29]
Sophie Hollyweld
And I think it also has to do with who you work with. You know, we've talked about Neil and Justina, who's. This is like our sort of core four that we've been working with since the very beginning and the number of times that we've hurt from other people in the industry who come to us and they say, we worked with your management team and, you know, we work with so many different people, but your team was so fair, so kind, so, you know, good at listening and all these things. Like, we really just wanted to keep working with you and that. I think you can't really quantify how far that takes you, but it's been something that has helped us, for sure, enormously. And also just. Just makes our life a joy because we have good business relationships and also just good relationships in general. It's fun.
- [115:13]
Rich Roll
You're, like, playing the long game, too.
- [115:15]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah.
- [115:15]
Rich Roll
The one thing about you guys that really stands out is just that it's just positive vibes all day long. Like, there's no negativity, to your point about, like, competition or, like, you know, kind of thinking about what other people are doing. Like, it's just. It's just. It's all good, you know, it's all, like, positive. Positive, uplifting energy. And I'm sure that's the. You know, that's the experience that being in your audience, you know, is, like. Right. Like. But it exudes. It's like a very authentic, you know, kind of, like, aura around you.
- [115:49]
Tucker Halpern
I feel like I have to calm myself out a little bit here because Sophie's definitely thinking it, and I know what she's thinking.
- [115:54]
Sophie Hollyweld
What was I thinking? Well, that I. I was nodding my head, just being like.
- [115:58]
Rich Roll
Yeah, because we're so positive.
- [116:00]
Tucker Halpern
No, no, we are. We are positive. We're definitely positive.
- [116:03]
Sophie Hollyweld
What were you thinking?
- [116:03]
Tucker Halpern
One of the ways that I motivate is being very aware of how everyone else is doing and using my competitiveness to drive me. So I can't say that I don't look at other people who are, like, selling more tickets than us or have a better song or a song is doing better or whatever it is. And it's. There was a bit of a time when I remember I would, like, forward stuff to Sophie and be like, damn, look at that. Look at them. Look at their show. Look at the venue they played, you know?
- [116:38]
Rich Roll
But that's different from, like, talking shit about people.
- [116:40]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I agree.
- [116:41]
Tucker Halpern
Oh, no, it's positive. I mean, I'm.
- [116:43]
Rich Roll
I mean, it's one thing to, like, look at that and be inspired and have it motivate you.
- [116:46]
Tucker Halpern
So. Yeah, I guess the point was she took it as negative because she was like, that's not what motivates me. Comparing and seeing that, like, maybe our venue's smaller than theirs. That's not. That's just. I'm gonna take that sort of negatively, and I'm gonna internalize that negatively, and it's not gonna make me feel good. And for me, I'm like, let's go. You know, I wanna go get it.
- [117:13]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. Well, I think in that way, I get it in that way. Yeah. I don't know if I would use the word negative and positive to describe that, but definitely, definitely. The thing that most motivates me is, you know, being really grateful for what we do have and focusing more on that. And then kind of.
- [117:34]
Tucker Halpern
You don't like the comparisons?
- [117:36]
Sophie Hollyweld
I don't like too much of it. I think without gratitude, it hurts me. And so I just felt like there was perspective.
- [117:46]
Rich Roll
She's more evolved than I am.
- [117:48]
Sophie Hollyweld
No, I'm just.
- [117:49]
Tucker Halpern
I'm a little more evolved.
- [117:50]
Sophie Hollyweld
The killer, maybe. But I think we're also, in our own ways. I don't know. I think. I do think that when you focus on the things that you're really grateful for, they tend to expand, expand and multiply.
- [118:03]
Tucker Halpern
I'm not saying let's not focus on what we're grateful for. Yeah, that's all we were saying.
- [118:07]
Rich Roll
Let's get after it.
- [118:08]
Tucker Halpern
Let's get after it a little bit.
- [118:10]
Sophie Hollyweld
So I like both perspectives, but again, I think the motivational piece of it is, like, I actually think that if what we want is bigger venues and all these things, that actually focusing on what's really working for us is actually going to get us there. So it was more like a pivot of perspective of how do we get there. And for me, yeah, focusing on the positive things, we're definitely going to be more fruitful in that way, towards that same goal.
- [118:38]
Tucker Halpern
But I just didn't take them negatively. They're the same things. I just didn't take them negatively.
- [118:43]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. And to some extent, it's kind of semantics, whether it's, like, positive or negative. But I do think that we. We have a culture of positivity, of lifting people up. And this is kind of what I was saying where I feel like this last tour was a moment for us where we realized that all of the people who come to our shows feel that same way and that that message is clear that people are showing up, being like, I'm gonna come to this show and I'm gonna dress up with the craziest outfit I have in my closet, and I gonna scream and dance and, like, let loose and let go of all the things that are not serving me anymore and make friends. And, like, the fact that we've created an environment that people come to for that is just so cool and something I'm so proud of. I think that culture does permeate, like, our entire business, our friendship. And that isn't to say that there aren't hard things, challenges, negative moments that I think we have. Have to give some Space for. It's not like we're, you know, what's the word? Sort of like positivity police. Like we're not like you must be positive at all moments. You know, I think there's a lot of.
- [119:54]
Tucker Halpern
No, not at all. I mean, last week we had a week of bad news, honestly. Like we had a bunch of shows, but there was an election and the day before we had played at the other side's the side who lost rally. And so then, so that was sort of like a weird. And then the Grammy nominations came out and we weren't on them. And as a competitive person, I was pissed. I wasn't happy for a lot of reasons. Women. And then also myself for the Grammy one. And we got a bunch of messages, sort of encouraging messages, mostly from our family, I think. Just saying, like what? Your show tonight is actually more important now than it was yesterday because like you need to give that these spaces of joy and inclusion and, you know, loving yourself and fun and escape from a really heavy world right now is more important than ever. And so that did feel. That felt good. Even in a shitty time.
- [120:59]
Rich Roll
No, it's special what you guys are doing. Sophie, do you feel like you're changing the world?
- [121:03]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah, I do, but I also. But I also don't feel like it's my responsibility to anymore. That's even better, actually. Like, I feel like I'm really proud of what we do on a daily basis. But it's also like I don't have this like savior complex thing anymore. You know, I'm like, it's not all. It's not my job. It's my job to do the best that I can every day. But I'm not supposed to like save the world single handedly, you know, that's unrealistic. No. God, no. I would be the worst. Don't.
- [121:34]
Rich Roll
Oh my God. Where would that leave you? How would you fit in the administration?
- [121:42]
Tucker Halpern
I'll be in the administration somewhere. Maybe her stylist.
- [121:50]
Rich Roll
That's amazing. You guys are awesome. I'm just delighted by both of you. I think you're just the very beginning of a very long journey that is going to be bright indeed. So I appreciate you guys coming in today. It's super fun.
- [122:05]
Sophie Hollyweld
Thank you.
- [122:05]
Rich Roll
I hope you guys get some rest at some point.
- [122:07]
Sophie Hollyweld
I feel rested.
- [122:08]
Tucker Halpern
Not today.
- [122:09]
Sophie Hollyweld
I feel amazing.
- [122:10]
Tucker Halpern
Call her at 4am today or after the flight in the morning.
- [122:15]
Rich Roll
I still have to come to a show. Also. I know that I was trying to remember what show did Julie come to, how she came on stage.
- [122:23]
Sophie Hollyweld
I don't know where.
- [122:25]
Tucker Halpern
In Miami. That's where I met.
- [122:26]
Rich Roll
Was it Miami?
- [122:28]
Tucker Halpern
Miami, for sure.
- [122:29]
Sophie Hollyweld
Oh, my God. That was such a long. That was pre. Pandemic.
- [122:31]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah. A long, long time ago.
- [122:32]
Sophie Hollyweld
Yeah. Wow.
- [122:34]
Tucker Halpern
I remember.
- [122:34]
Sophie Hollyweld
That's amazing.
- [122:35]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, that was fun.
- [122:37]
Rich Roll
I can't stay up that late, though. Anyway.
- [122:39]
Tucker Halpern
Well, our live shows are like nine, you know, it's.
- [122:42]
Sophie Hollyweld
It's not all we can. We. We have like.
- [122:43]
Tucker Halpern
We have day shows.
- [122:44]
Rich Roll
Daytime. I'll sign up for the day show.
- [122:47]
Tucker Halpern
Yeah, it's fun.
- [122:48]
Rich Roll
All right, cool.
- [122:49]
Tucker Halpern
A real honor, though. Thank you for having us. Yeah, this is.
- [122:52]
Rich Roll
Honestly. No, you guys are awesome. I'm a huge fan of everything you're doing and, you know, wind in your sails. Thanks for coming in.
- [123:00]
Tucker Halpern
Thank you so much. Cheers.
- [123:15]
Rich Roll
That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power meal planner@meals.richroll.com if you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the Meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by David Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace.
- [124:56]
Tucker Halpern
Nice.
- [125:04]
Sophie Hollyweld
It.