← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
The King of Moab: Ultrarunner Max Jolliffe On Winning Moab 240, Recovery From Heroin Addiction & Why Suffering Is His Greatest Teacher
01:40:57
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
So a little over nine months ago, I underwent spinal fusion surgery. And since then, my focus has shifted away from chasing these really big, audacious performance goals like I did in the past, to now accepting my limitations in this current reality and learning how to build a daily rhythm that actually feels sustainable for where I'm at right now, today. And whoops. This wearable health and fitness coach that you see right here on my wrist every time you see me is this amazing tool that gives me insights into all the things that influence how I feel and how I perform. My sleep, my recovery, my strain, and my overall health so that I can better understand how my habits are influencing how I feel. And what's interesting is how these insights translate beyond training. Better sleep changes improve how I show up at work. Recovery changes how patient I am with my family. And when I'm planning for bigger goals, like lining up to participate in the New York City Marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday this fall, Whoop. Helps me stay grounded in what my body needs right now, not what my ego wants it to do or what I used to be able to do. And I think that's really what adding more life to your years means. Making decisions today that allow you to show up more fully tomorrow. Go to join.wooc.com roll for one month free of woop.
- [01:30]
Max Joliff
I've been sober for 12 years. It's a big part of who I am. I just come from like a really long line of alcoholics and drug addicts. People ask me what is my heritage? And it's like alcoholism. Max Joliff, the King of Moab.
- [01:45]
Rich Roll
The Moab 240 is a 240 mile race through the desert of Ut. You have climbing, you have descending, you have dirt, dust, sand. Moab 240's got everything for you to win.
- [01:57]
Max Joliff
Moab, after only a few years of running, is so unique in this space. If you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve, and you do put in the work, anything is possible.
- [02:10]
Rich Roll
You come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better. But how have they made you like a better runner?
- [02:21]
Max Joliff
That's a great question.
- [02:25]
Rich Roll
Super nice to meet you. It's been so fun following your journey over the past couple years and I'm just delighted to talk to you.
- [02:32]
Max Joliff
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [02:33]
Rich Roll
Thanks for coming. For people that don't know, you won the Moab 240 and you're on this kind of ascent path right now in your career as an ultra runner, what do people not get about a race like Moab 250? We see these videos, we watch your videos, we think we have a sense of what's involved. What is your kind of like reality check on what it's actually like to cover that much distance in a competitive environment?
- [03:06]
Max Joliff
It's almost like these races are not even races. Like I try to go into the multi day events almost looking at it as this is a big adventure that I'm just trying to do absolutely as fast as possible. And it's like you almost can't wrap your head around being out there and pushing so hard for I mean quite literally days straight and not sleeping. It's just there's, there's so many outside factors and variables. I mean you run 100 miles and it's like you're problem solving and dealing with, you know, all these different little issues that might come up and foot stuff and pains and you know, fueling and hydration and you know, managing electrolytes and sodium and the crew logistics and the gear. There's like so many moving parts and I think the, the two hundreds and the multi day stuff is just like that, just longer and on a bigger scale. So yeah, it's hard to almost even look at them as a race. And most of the time you're like out there by yourself. Like the field is so spread out.
- [04:18]
Rich Roll
You're on some kind of spiritual. Spiritual journey.
- [04:22]
Max Joliff
Yeah, no, quite literally, yeah. And like I said earlier, it's like you can experience every single human emotion during, the, during a race like that.
- [04:32]
Rich Roll
The crazy thing in, in the King of Moab video is those last four miles, you know, that, that last stage where you know, after all that time and distance it was still up for grabs. Like are you going to win? Are you going to get past? Did you like all these, you know, like you're moving so slowly at this
- [04:50]
Max Joliff
point, anything can happen.
- [04:52]
Rich Roll
And then you find your legs. You're like, you know, God gave me my legs back. And you're hitting, you know, paces that you hadn't like in the entire race. Like at the very end of this thing. Like it makes no sense that you could like like dig that deep or suddenly, you know, find that like deeper reservoir of, you know, access, like, you know, a capacity that you know, no one would have thought possible.
- [05:20]
Max Joliff
Yeah, and that's like kind of just the race factor and you know, being motivated and getting a little spike of adrenaline or like seeing like the Hope or the light at the end of the tunnel, like, oh, maybe there is still a chance for me, which is really what I felt. During Moab. I was, you know, five hours behind the leader at mile 200, 15 miles behind him, and he just happened to be going through, you know, a rough part of the race for him. He kept having to stop and, you know, the 12 hours before, I was having a really rough section. So it's just like, it's so variable and the races are so long and so many things that could happen. Like, you can quite literally get to the very end of the race, you know, second to last aid station, like I did at Cocodona, and just have to drop. I can't stand up anymore. I got a cellulitis infection in my legs and I can't stand up. I can't put shoes on. I can't move. It's over.
- [06:18]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [06:19]
Max Joliff
After all that time being out there, pushing so hard, so much work, so much, so many months of training, and it all comes down to this race, and it's just. Just doesn't happen.
- [06:27]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [06:28]
Max Joliff
It's just the way it goes, you know.
- [06:30]
Rich Roll
What do you think? Are this the most salient aspects of your upbringing that have contributed the most to you being who you are today?
- [06:43]
Max Joliff
Yeah, this could be a very long story, but I think maybe the best way for me to just put it is, like, I had just a really complicated upbringing in life. There was lots of good that happened. You know, I. I can't say it was all bad. Like, I really did enjoy my childhood. And, you know, I was lucky enough to be born and raised in, like, a really incredible place, you know, Newport beach, like, of all places, like, what a. What a killer place to. To be out to, you know, be a kid and to grow up in. But, yeah, I just come from, like, a really long line of alcoholics and drug addicts. You know, my entire family, both my. My sister, my grandparents on each side, probably, you know, their parents and their parents and their grandparents. It's like people ask me what is my heritage? And it's like alcoholism. It's not like English or European descent. It's like alcoholism is just where I come from. And yeah, as much as, you know, I've had it, just absolutely rock my family. It was kind of inevitable that I was going to go down the same path. And, like, I really do think if I. Even if I had the best upbringing ever and there was no trauma and no abuse, like, I still probably would have gone down the same path that I Did. And yeah, I think that all just like, started from the beginning with me just having this, this obsessive mind and, you know, like, even when I was like a little, like real little kid, it was like Halloween time, like candy, like, being obsessed and like hoarding, like, candy or sneaking off to go to 711 to get a little sugar fix and, you know, just. Yeah, the, the signs were all there. And it was pretty clear from, you know, third person perspective that I was gonna end up with an addictive personality and kind of fall into alcoholism and drug addiction as much as I would have not liked to. And I've seen it absolutely rock my family. My mom's been sober for, you know, 36 plus, almost 40 years. And my dad, you know, is. Has had a really rough go and is still currently suffering and he's out. And yeah, that's, that's a really difficult and complicated relationship for me to even talk about. But I know it's not different than a lot of other people. Like, I know, I know so many people that, you know, suffer from the same thing that I do and have a very similar story. So me at least being able to share that with people and tell my story and if people relate to it and can get something good out of it, that's like what, what I, what I look forward to and what satisfies me the most. And yeah, it's like, you know, first started drinking and using right around, I don't know, middle school times, like, 13, 14, like, started off smoking weed with friends and, you know, cracking a couple beers and, you know, just being a curious kid, trying things out. And kind of right around the same time, I ended up, I think I was 14 years old. I was with my mom and my sister. We were at Trader Joe's, and I had some friends that were gonna go to the skate park. And I was in a rush to get home and was crossing the street in the crosswalk with my skateboard, and this lady hit me in her car going like 35 miles an hour. And I ended up in the hospital. I, like, almost broke my femur. I ended up just, just chipping a bunch of my teeth, got road rash all over my body. They rushed me straight to the hospital. They're doing CT scans on my brain. I wasn't wearing a helmet. So just a very chaotic, traumatic event. And, you know, they get me into the ER and they just hit me with morphine. And that was the first time in my life where I was like, okay, like, I'm going to be okay. Like, despite this, like, crazy traumatic event that had just happened to me, it was like I felt the relief for the first time, you know, a warm blanket. Yeah. And then they send me home with a prescription for oxy. And that kind of like set in motion this. This snowball that turned, like into a really, really big problem for me in my life throughout the next, I don't know, 10 years.
- [11:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah. So it was oxy that was the drug of choice.
- [11:30]
Max Joliff
Yeah, I mean, it was. It was always kind of opiates. And I, like, I was a garbage disposal for a disposal for a long time. Like, I would do or try anything, but in the end it ended up just being opiates and heroin and like Those Purdue Pharma OxyContin pills, like the Sackler family, like the. That documentary painkiller. Like, that's. Those are the pills that really, like, destroyed me and like almost an entire generation of people and a ton of my friends and. Yeah, I've. It's just. It's just brutal, man.
- [12:04]
Rich Roll
So the heroin is the heroin when you just run out of the pills and you can't, you don't. You can't get them. Yeah, well, it was the path to heroin.
- [12:12]
Max Joliff
Yeah, it was around. God, it had to have been right. When I was graduating high school, around 2010, I think the government and people started to catch on. These things are so highly.
- [12:26]
Rich Roll
You go into those pill clinics where it was just super easy to like, fake a script or something.
- [12:31]
Max Joliff
Yeah, I wasn't specifically, but I had, you know, multiple friends that were doing the doctor shopping, you know, going, coming up to LA, you know, seeing crooked doctors, getting 120 of these 80 milligram oxy pills and then going down the street to another crooked doctor that'll write them a prescription for another 120. So they were like everywhere. I mean, if you were a user, it was like very easy to get those things. And around 2010 and. Well, what was super unique and weird about those pills is like, you know, you could so easily just scrape the time release coating off of them and like people were smoking them on tinfoil, like, like straight up heroin.
- [13:08]
Rich Roll
And I didn't know you could smoke them.
- [13:11]
Max Joliff
Yeah, so that's what me. And I mean, you could smoke them, shoot them, eat them. They were like. It was a very maybe innovative.
- [13:18]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it's like creation. That's dark shit though, right?
- [13:22]
Max Joliff
And was that intentional on their part? Who knows? But yeah, that was just like, you know, I, you know, having. And like a lot of those friends who were doing that same thing that I was, that are doing the doctor shopping thing and addicted. Just like I was like, I have a friend who. He broke his leg surfing and like they prescribed him those pills. It was like we almost like we like none of us planned on being like junkies and drug addicts, but that's just like, you know, you. I, I think anyone, if you put on those pills for long enough, like, you will become addicted. There's like, it's unavoidable. Like our brains are just wired. When that chemical hits your brain, it's just like you become dependent upon it. And around 2010, the government caught on. They just stopped making them, they banned them. So they just pretty much overnight disappeared everywhere. And all of these people who are addicted to these pills just immediately switched to heroin.
- [14:21]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [14:21]
Max Joliff
Yeah.
- [14:23]
Rich Roll
Your mom's. Your mom was sober. Has been sober your whole life though.
- [14:26]
Max Joliff
Yeah.
- [14:27]
Rich Roll
Right. So. And I would assume that she's got some, you know, kind of radar vision. You know, when this starts, when this starts kicking off for you, like, what. And how many siblings do you have? Like, what was going on at the, at the house at this time?
- [14:40]
Max Joliff
So I have one younger sister and my mom, she's been, you know, sober her whole life. She was a stay at home mom. And this is where kind of the whole family dynamic gets a little bit interesting. Is she. She like never really worked a job and when, you know, right around the same time that, you know, I'm starting to experiment with using drugs and alcohol. Like, we have the 2008 financial collapse and my dad, he was a. A creative writer. He has a master's degree in journalism from Northwestern. Just a very smart and very gifted and talented human being, but just deep at his core, just an alcoholic that never really was equipped to deal with life, you know. And he ended up losing his, his job due to alcoholism. And you know, for the majority of my childhood, he was like, kind of pulling it off, but, you know, always kind of chipping on the side. Like, we'd go on family vacations and the family car would like be. Be totaled. And you know, he would have a DUI or some story that was like, oh, someone borrowed my car. You know, typical, typical alcohol.
- [15:56]
Rich Roll
He was in the house.
- [15:58]
Max Joliff
He was in the house. And then their marriage, I mean, just. I mean, my dad just really lost everything and their marriage fell apart. My mom, you know, didn't really have anywhere to go, so she ended up moving to Arizona to live with her parents. And me and my sister just like, didn't want to go and we chose to stay where we were and what we were familiar with. And we're kind of like, left with this man who was just a progressing alcoholic. And yeah, things got, like, really bad and dark pretty quickly, you know, My dad, like, it was every day like a pint of vodka.
- [16:44]
Rich Roll
I'd come home from school and leaving Las Vegas style.
- [16:48]
Max Joliff
Like, worse. Like, he, like, he would spend, you know, days on end just on the couch. Like, couldn't even get up or stand up. Like, he would drink fifths and just giant bottles of vodka. And I, you know, I'd come home from school and, like, find him on the floor of the kitchen and have to, like, get on my hands and knees to check if he was breathing. And that was like a daily occurrence. Like, I remember one time I got arrested at school for stealing a sandwich from this, like, deli that was, like, across the street. And I ended up getting busted, coming back on campus. And they had me, you know, in handcuffs in a cop car. And school gets out and everyone walks, walks past. I'm just completely humiliated. And this cop, I ended up getting suspended and whatever. It was, like, wasn't that big of a deal. But the cop was sent, was telling me, he's all, hey, like, you. Like, I can release you if you have a family member that can come pick you up. And I was like, I just straight up told him. I was like, dude, you can call my dad, but he's not going to answer. Like, we're across. Like, we live in these apartments across the street and, like, you can walk me over to our house and I'll open the door and he'll be passed out on the ground. And cop drove me over there. We walked up to my door and opened the door, and lo and behold, he's just, like, literally passed out on the floor. And it was just like that, you know, it was just so.
- [18:07]
Rich Roll
You're just. You're just left to your own devices. You gotta raise yourself. It's just chaos.
- [18:12]
Max Joliff
And, like, I, you know, do. But the only thing that I like, that makes me feel comfortable is just like, the same that he's doing. It's like drugs and alcohol were like, the solution and the fix and just, like, what made me just feel okay with, like, the shitty circumstance, circumstances of
- [18:30]
Rich Roll
my life, but the internal conflict, the tension of, like, I'm never gonna be like my dad. And knowing that, like, yeah, you're kind of headed in that direction, like, deep down, like, maybe not consciously admitting it
- [18:43]
Max Joliff
to yourself as much as I knowing that, yeah, as Much as I don't want to float down the river to,
- [18:48]
Rich Roll
you know, you're on this inevitable like, escalator that you can't get off. Yeah, yeah, it's. I'm so sorry, man. You know, the. I can't imagine, like I, My circumstances growing up were very different, but this idea of the home environment being so chaotic and this, this, this notion that like, no one's, no one's coming to save me. Like, it's just up to me and trying to figure that out as a young person, like all on your own with just, you know, your sister.
- [19:20]
Max Joliff
Yeah. And then like, I mean, eventually my mom did come and save us. We ended up moving to Arizona for a year and living with her and which I just continued the progression of my own disease. But there was almost a whole year in high school where I was like homeless, like living at friends houses because I just like couldn't or didn't want to stay at home. And you know, it was like at one point my dad owned two houses on this street that got. If he didn't lose those houses, they'd probably be worth, you know, $5 million in total. But yeah, lost one house, then, you know, drank the other house away and then we move into apartments and eventually just like gets his seventh DUI in however many years and he ended up going to jail. So it was just me and my sister living at friends houses, sleeping on floors, trying.
- [20:12]
Rich Roll
How did you not end up in the system somehow?
- [20:15]
Max Joliff
Well, I think we were about to. So when my dad finally, you know, went away for a pretty long stint in jail, my mom just showed up and she was like, you guys are, you guys got to come with me. Like this, it's, it's a wrap here.
- [20:28]
Rich Roll
Were you at Newport High School?
- [20:30]
Max Joliff
Newport Harbor High.
- [20:31]
Rich Roll
Newport Harbor High. Like for people that don't know, like, this is, you know, an insanely, you know, well heeled, privileged, like high net worth like area, you know, like a lot of people with a lot of money, you know, conservative community. And for you to be, you know, kind of in the circumstances that you were, I would imagine, you know, created some social consternation.
- [20:53]
Max Joliff
Yeah. And like I always felt like, like, why me? You know, like seeing all of my friends that have all these like kind of picture perfect families and then like, I'm just stuck in this household of chaos and abuse and fighting and the cops getting called to my house and wondering if one of my parents is going to go to jail. Like just the chaos of my life. I almost, yeah, just a Lot of times remember thinking like, God, like, why, like, why do this to me? You know, like, why. Why do I deserve this? And I don't know, it turns out, like, I. Like, in hindsight, I'm like, so grateful that I was able to experience, you know, some. Some hardship early on in my life. And it taught me some really valuable lessons. And as much as, you know, as terrible as alcoholism and drug addiction is, like, I really feel like it's made me the person that I am today. And yeah, like, honestly wouldn't take any of it back.
- [21:54]
Rich Roll
There is this amazing pipeline from drug addicts and alcoholics in recovery into ultra endurance sports and ultra running. It's just like show up at the start line of any ultra and it's just tattoos as far as the eye can see. And it seems like there's just an insanely high percentage of people who are in recovery.
- [22:18]
Max Joliff
Yeah. And sometimes I wonder, it's like, did I just become so desensitized to life just from just all the. That I've been through that ultra running is like the most extreme form of running and just inability for me to, like, feel something. You know what I mean? If it's hardship or pain or. I mean, dude, some races you can almost experience an entire lifetime of emotions in one single race. So I don't know, maybe that's a big reason why I was just so drawn to ultra running.
- [22:51]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I think there's.
- [22:52]
Max Joliff
That's.
- [22:53]
Rich Roll
That's an interesting lens on it. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I mean, the way that I generally think about it is I believe that addicts are seekers on some level, and they're seeking answers to their questions and they're seeking comfort to their discomfort in unhealthy ways. But ultimately, like, they're. They want what everyone wants. They want. They want to feel connected, they want to feel love, they want to feel safe. Like, all of these things and, you know, drugs and alcohol, you know, are very reliable in providing those things temporarily until they derail your life. But then when you take that away, that. That hardwired, you know, kind of predisposition for extreme experiences, to feel something, to feel alive, to try to understand yourself in the world. When that gets removed, like, you're going to find another way to explore that. And ultra running is like, right there. Like, hey, you know, you can go as deep as you want and suffer. And, you know, on some level, maybe it's like, you know, that addict thing, like, I'm better than everyone else, but I'm Also the biggest piece of shit in the world. You know, it's like, well, ultra running will deliver on both levels, you know, because if you finish a race, you're like this amazing, you know, esteem building sort of situation, but also like, you're just gonna go to the darkest cave you've ever gone to and you're gonna experience that level of suffering that on some level, maybe you're. You, you. You're kind of looking for.
- [24:22]
Max Joliff
Right? There's something therapeutic in that.
- [24:24]
Rich Roll
Yeah, yeah. Like, how do you think about suffering as a teacher?
- [24:28]
Max Joliff
I feel like, yeah, pain and suffering is my biggest motivator in life to do anything. Like I remember specifically, you know, finally, you know, after all the, that I went through, overdosing, you know, getting arrested multiple times, spending quite a bit of time in jail, which is how I did finally end up getting sober. I just like. And the one thing that my dad did for me that I like was the most valuable thing that he ever taught me was he just like dragged my ass to aa and while I was like, kind of in the worst time of my addiction, he was actually sober for, you know, quite a few years. So there were, there were times when,
- [25:13]
Rich Roll
you know, he had periods.
- [25:15]
Max Joliff
He had periods of, of, you know, kind of pulling it off and multiple years of sobriety here and there, which came and went. But I remember, you know, when I was like, just really strung out and really bad, the only thing he could really think to do was like, I just need to like, get this kid in an AA meeting. And he would drag me to meetings and I was like, I'd be going to meetings high. And it was, yeah, I just like, wasn't ready. But at least it planted the seed for me to know that, hey, when the stars do align and I do finally have this opportunity where I'm ready and willing to get sober, I know where to go. And I ended up getting out of jail. I spent almost three months in there. And you just.
- [26:01]
Rich Roll
For what? You just got busted?
- [26:03]
Max Joliff
Yeah, I mean, I had originally gotten arrested for possession with intent to distribute cocaine and marijuana. Two separate charges, and then was, you know, ended up getting put on formal probation for multiple years. And I just like, could not give a clean drug test. Like, I failed just dirty drug tests over and over and over. And then finally my probation officer was like, dude, this is like the 10th one. Like, you're out of here. You're going in for a 90 day violation. Which was the, the best thing to happen to me. Like, I just needed to be removed from the Situation that I was in, the people that I was in, I was just strung out. And I had, you know, I tried detox and had little brief stints, but I just, like, kept going back to the same thing. And I needed, like, a long, extended period of time of being locked up, away from everyone to like, finally get my straight and like, just physically detox. So, yeah, spent three months in like, a very low security jail facility in Orange County. And then as soon as I got out, I just, like, got super plugged into aa and I just, like, it was every day I was going to meetings and I got really lucky that, like, a lot of my friends that, you know, I was out there using and running and gunning with, like, a lot of them were like, like, kind of like ended up getting sober right around the same time. And I just had like a super, like, awesome support group. And I like, feel so lucky. I just got so plugged in with this, like, this community down in Orange County. And Orange county is, like, weirdly a hub for aa. Like, there's tons of, you know, rehabs and treatment centers. It's like almost kind of like a mecca for recovery and Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. So, yeah, I just, like, really dove in head first to the program and working the 12 steps. And yeah, you know, I, I. My life did start to get better, but it was, you know, like anything, you know, you become complacent and going back to, like, the pain. Pain was the biggest motivator thing for me. Like, it really took me to get to a point where I was, like, sober but, like, still completely miserable. To actually, like, really invest into working the 12 steps and actually applying them to my life. And then, you know, once I finally do work the 12 steps and I start working with other people and taking them through the steps and like, that's when, like, I really started to make serious progress in my life and start to feel the benefits. And like, right around the same time, I like, randomly just discover running. I just, like, yeah, quite by mistake.
- [28:38]
Rich Roll
Cleanup after dinner. This is something that used to end with a compost routine. Scraping plates, dealing with the bin, taking stuff outside. And it worked kind of, but it was just one more chore at the end of the day and always way more messy than it should have been. But now, courtesy of mill, we have this fully automated food recycler that has completely changed the game. Now everything just goes into our mill. Scraps, pits, leftovers, almost anything. And while we sleep, it quietly turns it all into dry, odorless ground. No mess, no stress, no smells. And in our house, where the kitchen and the living room are kind of basically one big room, that is a huge upgrade. We still care just as much about food waste, but now it's just a frictionless process and seeing the impact tracked in the app is oddly satisfying. You can try Mill Risk Free right now for 90 days and get $75 off@mill.com and use the code richroll at checkout. I've been sleeping on my Birch for many years now and what I have realized over time is how much my day actually starts the night before when my sleep is solid. Shocker. Everything feels steadier. My energy, my focus, my mood. You all know what I'm talking about. So your mattress maps and with Birch I sleep cooler, I sleep deeper and with a kind of quiet ease that I don't think I really had before. I don't love the idea of spending a third of my life surrounded by synthetic foams or off gassing materials, so I appreciate that. Birch is made from natural, responsibly sourced materials. Comfortable, but also built to last. Birch mattresses are thoughtfully designed, they're stylish, and they're crafted with organic fair trade cotton and natural latex, all chosen very intentionally to support better, more restorative sleep. Birch also gives you this amazing 120 night risk free trial so you can truly see how your body responds and they stand behind their work with a limited lifetime warranty. I want all of you to experience what I get to experience, which is a deep, restful night's sleep with a new mattress from birch. Go to birchliving.com rich roll for 20% off sitewide. This episode is brought to you by Noble Mobile. And oh my goodness, I gotta say, the mission that this company is on is about as aligned with my values and as could even be possible because it's all about reclaiming our attention by changing our relationship with our phones. Noble is the first phone carrier that pays you to use your phone less. You heard me correctly. It sounds insane, but it's actually true. The big carriers out there all overcharge us, everyone for data that we don't actually use and then they pair that with poor customer service and make it seem like there are no better options because their whole business model is built around keeping us glued to our screens. Noble flips that you still get unlimited talk and text and 5G data and you get it on the T mobile network, which is an amazing network, but you also get it at a fraction of the price the big carriers Charge. And on top of that, they pay you cash, cash back for the data that you don't use, meaning that you can earn up to $20 a month. Not only did I keep my same phone number, it turned out to be this incredibly quick and easy process. But it's not just about saving money. It's about taking back your time and your attention. And right now, as a listener of this show, you can try Noble today for just $10. Go to noblemobile.com rich roll get paid to use your phone less. It's an interesting kind of conundrum when you know you need to change. You know, it's inevitable that at some point you're going to have to, like, you know, give up this thing and start doing something else, but that's not enough to get you to do it. You know, there is something very specific about pain and suffering that gives birth to the willingness. It's all about willingness. It's like, you know what you need to do, right? But are you willing? And until you're willing, you're not going to make that choice and you're going to continue to slide and your life's going to get worse until you reach that point where enough's enough. As we say, you reach that point in jail. But willingness is such a fickle kind of energy. Like, you can't will somebody to be willing and you can't just decide to be willing. It's almost like this weird thing that descends down on you when you're in enough pain and gives you this burst of energy that you didn't have five minutes prior to finally do that different thing.
- [33:47]
Max Joliff
And I think for me, I was just like, quite literally, like, beaten into a state of willingness. Like, I share about this in meetings all the time. The, you know, weeks and months leading up to the day that I got sober, like, truly, every single day felt like the worst day of my life. It was like Groundhog's Day on repeat of just like, just the worst day ever. And, yeah, when, you know, the cops showed up in my door, you know, like they always do when you're on probation. They just show up at any given time. And they showed up one morning and I was like, this. Like, this is it. This is my one opportunity. Like, I know they're taking me to jail, so, like, I'm just. This might be my only shot to get sober. So I was, you know, quite literally beaten into a state of willingness and reasonableness. And I, you know, had a moment of clarity where I saw that, like, hey, this might Be, you know, where the stars align. And I might only have this small window of opportunity to, like, actually fleeting
- [34:48]
Rich Roll
moments, because, you know, if you don't act in that moment, it will pass, and you'll be back to your bullshit, you know? And I think for people that don't really understand addiction, they struggle with this idea of, like, well, clearly, you know, you're going down the wrong path here. Look at your dad. Like, there's the blueprint. This is where you're headed. How come you can't just make this different choice, but you're stuck in this cycle of compulsion and craving and reward that is so cunning, baffling, and powerful, it's near impossible when people take hits at AA and 12 step all the time, like, oh, it doesn't really work. The sobriety rate is very low. And all of that, they miss the fact that, you know, when somebody relapses or goes out, it's like, oh, my God, somebody dranks. Like, no, the miracle is that, like, all these other people didn't drink today. You know, it is. It's. It's so. It's so pernicious and challenging to overcome, and it requires those moments of clarity where willingness descends. And you realize you have this brief moment of time to, like, make that different decision and set something in motion that's going to move your life in a new direction.
- [36:03]
Max Joliff
And then through working those steps, you know, you end up developing a relationship with God and, you know, getting. I mean, the byproduct is, like, I've just, like, been gifted this, like, super amazing life now that I, like, never thought would have ever been possible. It was just. It looked like scorched earth just all around me.
- [36:23]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, the arc. And so that was 2012, right?
- [36:28]
Max Joliff
Yeah. I got sober April 6th of 2012. So I'll have 14 years on April 6th.
- [36:34]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's amazing.
- [36:35]
Max Joliff
And, like, yeah, I just, like. I can't really take any credit for it. It's all, like, what God has done for me and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and, like, all the people around me, like, I could go on and name a hundred different people that, like, have done so much for me in my life, but I just, like. I just, like, quite literally, like, grew up in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and, like, finally, for the first time, had, like, real men around me who were, like, solid role models and, like, learned valuable life skills and how to live a life. Like, I. I had no skills of any kind. I wasn't good at anything. I had nothing going for me. And all I do is, like, show up to these meetings and, like, listen to people talk and, like, get my hand held as I figure out how to be a normal human being, you know?
- [37:22]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And you had no solid, stable male role model in your life.
- [37:28]
Max Joliff
I mean, it's, like, so weird. Like, my dad was. He's, like, been around my whole life, but not really ever super present. And, like, I really don't feel like I even know the guy. I mean, especially in the last, you know, seven or eight years that we've been estranged. Like, I haven't spoken to him in many, many years. And, yeah, he's, you know, chosen a life that I can't be a part of, you know, that involves drugs and alcohol and crime and mental institutions and jails and hospitals and a life that doesn't involve his family, which, you know, is. Is fine. That's it. Is what it is. And as much as it hurts it. I don't know, it's tough.
- [38:14]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to find some level of compassion? Because he's the, you know, he's the alcoholic who's out there, you know, sick.
- [38:24]
Max Joliff
Yeah, totally. And, like, I. I don't. I don't ever, like, harbor any resentment or anger towards him. I mean, obviously, you know, it's like, that does no one any good is, like, the resentment is only killing me, but, like, yeah, I just, like, genuinely, like, feel sorry for people who are just, like, suffering and just cannot get it because I've. I've been there. I, like, I've so badly wanted to just stop getting high and stop drinking and stop using, but just not being able to, like, for the life of me. So, yeah, I just, you know, I just really feel for him and I still do love him, but I just have to separate myself and, like, for my own mental health insanity. It's just like I've. I've done this dance over and over where, you know, I let him back in and give him an inch and he takes a mile and just chaos ensues. And it's just. Yeah, it's. It's just really complicated and messy, you know?
- [39:25]
Rich Roll
So you're this skater kid, basically, right? Like, I'm trying to imagine, you know, you in high school, like. Like punk rock. Like, what are you listening to? Like, who are your influences? Like, what are you thinking about? And then let's, like, lead it up into, like, how you get introduced to running.
- [39:42]
Max Joliff
I think I was just real. I. I mean, super into skating and surfing was always, like, My two loves. I'm, like, decent at both. Never good enough to be. Never good enough to end up being on the surf team or skating in contests or anything, but just always really loved, you know, both surf and skate culture. And, you know, growing up in Orange County, Costa Mesa, like, all of the big brands are there, like Volcom, Quicksilver, Ruka Hur, like, you name it. That's kind of where surf and skate mecca was. So, you know, being a kid, I just, like, loved going to the skate park and loved going to the beach and surfing, and that was, like, kind of my whole life. And idolizing dudes like Andy Irons and Kelly and skaters, like, all of the Baker guys and Tony Hawk. I mean, I. Dude, I was just. My friend sent me an old photo of me and a bunch of us little groms as kids, and I'm like, in every single photo, I'm wearing, like, a Tony Hawk shirt and, like, old Vulcom shirts, which is funny, but that was just like me. I just. I just was a little skate surf rat.
- [40:53]
Rich Roll
And what was the vision like, do you had. Did you have an idea of what you wanted your life to be, or were you thinking about, like, what you might want to do?
- [41:01]
Max Joliff
Not really. I mean, I don't know. I think there was just so much going moment. I think there was so much going on at home that I, like, really didn't have an opportunity to envision a life for myself. And, like, I remember being like a little kid, like, I mean, young, like almost a toddler, and, like, wanting to be a trash man, just because I saw the trash.
- [41:21]
Rich Roll
Right. When you're in high school and things are going sideways, it's like, hey, man. Like, I don't, you know, I'm not really seeing, like, a path.
- [41:28]
Max Joliff
Oh.
- [41:29]
Rich Roll
For myself. So I'm just gonna enjoy.
- [41:30]
Max Joliff
I mean, I got good grades in school, and I just, like, knew I was never gonna make it to college. Like, there was just no way that I was going to be able to financially be able to afford or pull it off or even just, like, apply for a loan or a scholarship. Like, I just, like, that was. It was never even, like, in the cards for me. I was just, like, quite literally trying to survive. Like, I was, you know, homeless in high school, so I knew that.
- [41:54]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [41:54]
Max Joliff
It. Yeah, I was just, like, trying to survive. Just barely making it, you know.
- [41:59]
Rich Roll
So you're plugged into meetings post 2012, you're dialed. You're starting to put the, you know, pieces back together and figure your life out.
- [42:10]
Max Joliff
I get A job at a surf company? Yeah, no, I worked it early for,
- [42:14]
Rich Roll
until like this past year.
- [42:16]
Max Joliff
Yeah, up until just last year, November left I was there for almost 15 years. But yeah, just started off at the company sweeping floors and cleaning screens, like T shirt printing screens and doing artwork with a friend of mine and you know, weird little marketing activations. But yeah, it was just like kind of like a hangaround grom and worked my way up through the company going from you know, just a 1099 freelance contractor, just contracted help to getting brought on to the graphic design team and then designing T shirts and board short prints for a couple years and you know, acquiring more skills and hunting my craft and then becoming an apparel designer for multiple years after that. Like I, you know, at the beginning when I first got brought on, like I was a Nike employee at the time, Hurley was a, the surf category for the Nike organization. So was you know, affiliated with Nike
- [43:11]
Rich Roll
and this is like your college for learning how to be an effective storyteller and kind of public facing content creator.
- [43:19]
Max Joliff
And it was cool being part of like such a big like well oiled kind of corporate machine. Like I saw the inner workings of like how focused Hurley and the Nike organization was on brand and storytelling and we'd have these big town hall meetings where it was like, it felt like almost like a broken record on repeat. It was like storytelling, storytelling, storytelling and yeah, just like getting to work with like John Florence, you know, he was you know, a huge part of the brand. And I'm still super tight with a lot of the, the Hurley family that's gone on and started Florence Marine X, John's company. So yeah, just being really plugged in with very talented and creative people and just kind of being brought up and learning from the people around me.
- [44:06]
Rich Roll
But it never been like a quote unquote like a athlete, like an athlete as we understand an athlete. Like in high school you didn't play sports or anything like that?
- [44:15]
Max Joliff
No, I played, I played water polo for like the first two years of high school.
- [44:19]
Rich Roll
And was that like when you live in, in Newport?
- [44:22]
Max Joliff
Yeah, I mean I just like, I always kind of like loved the water and like wasn't good enough to make it on the surf team. So like what's the only other water sport that you can do? It's like water pole and swimming and I was just like really small in the beginning of high school and you know, was never going to make it onto the varsity team. So my sophomore year, they swim season was coming and I was like, I don't want to go through the hell of just being on swim team during swim season. It's just like, so grueling and so much like hard work, which is funny that I was like, hilarious avoiding hard work. So I was like, I'm just gonna. And then I ended up getting recruited by the. The coach of the wrestling team. So I ended up wrestling my sophomore year. High school. Got brought on straight to the varsity team because they didn't have a 103 pounder, so I was like the lightest weight and already was in pretty good shape just from being on the swim team. And so.
- [45:13]
Rich Roll
Yeah, so you weren't like a total burnout in high school then?
- [45:15]
Max Joliff
No, but I was like the worst player on the swim team, in the water polo team. And then, you know, because I'm so small, I'm in this weight class where I'm like. Because I have decent cardio. I was, you know, immediately put onto the varsity team and like, had, I don't know, I had some wins, but mostly losses. Like, I wasn't a gifted or talented athlete, but I did always have the ability to, like, put in the hard work. Like. Yes. I wasn't like genetically gifted to like, ever get big or be talented or have any skills in any sports, but I always was able to work hard, if that makes sense.
- [45:48]
Rich Roll
Yeah, but not on the cross country team or the track and field team.
- [45:51]
Max Joliff
Yeah, I didn't. I didn't even ever run once until I was 25 or 26.
- [45:55]
Rich Roll
Yeah, where is that first touch point with running?
- [45:58]
Max Joliff
So once I once I got a job at Hurley. They had a skate park in one of the warehouses. They had this huge campus, like probably 10 or 15 buildings. And one of the buildings was this dedicated warehouse that was just a skate park in it. So, you know, I get a job there. I'm, you know, a couple years sober. You know, my life's starting to get good. I'm starting to piece things together. I'm starting to do things that I had, you know, completely given up, like surfing and skate. Like, I'm getting back into skating. I'm getting back into these things that I love doing. I got this nice crew of people. Like, we're going to the skate park at night. Like, I'm getting better. I'm, you know, progressing. And, you know, when you're skate, skating is one of those sports where, like, you do it like you're just bound to get injured. And I ended up breaking both of my ankles, like a year apart. So had a couple injuries. And at the time I was living with a friend of mine who, he was just like a. He was like really into the gym. He was a bodybuilder, so he was just really into the gym at the time. And I was in a boot for a while and. Or a cast and then a boot for a while and I just got like really out of shape. And at the time I was just, you know, eating junk food and smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day. Just naa. Just drinking coffee, smoking cigs, like the only two vices that I have. And you know, over that year just like got really out of shape and just felt like a lot. And once I started to finally be able to move around and walk again and felt like I got to the point where I could work out, my roommate at the time was like, dude, just come to the gym with me. Like, it's the best investment in your health. Like, just, just. I'll show you what to do. Just, we're gonna just work out every single day. So started going to the gym with him and that was great. And I love lifting. I just like wasn't really trying to be a bodybuilder like he was. And I found myself going to the gym and I would just like gravitate to the cardio section and the, the stair climber was actually like my entry, my gateway into running and than ultra running. But I would just like go to the gym and just do an hour on the stair climber and that was like all I would do. And then after a while at that point just go. Being on the stairs, like my ankles were still like just too messed up to be able to run at that point. And then I remember one day trying to go for a run on the treadmill and then I was like, oh, this feels good. And then I, you know, started running on the treadmill and then doing the, the stair climber and the treadmill. And then eventually I found myself just going to the gym to only run on the treadmill. And I'm doing this for, you know, a couple weeks or a month. And I'm like, why do I have this gym membership if I'm just going to run on the treadmill? Like, I can do this outside. And then, yeah, just started running outdoors. And I like, I never really enjoyed or liked running, but when I finally started doing it on my own, like, we always had to run for wrestling and I mean even water polo and swimming, they would have us run and soccer and baseball and sports that I played as a kid. Running was always involved But I just like never really thought that I liked it. And it wasn't until I started running on my own and like doing this thing that was like very easily and rapidly producing like tangible results and progress for me, I think that's when I was like, oh, this is like something that's hard. It makes me feel good and I'm like getting these like small little wins. It was like the first time in like so long in my life where I was like actually felt like I was starting to make progress and I was, I was winning. Even though I was just like completing a five mile run, like that was a win for me. Or like running a mile at eight minute pace, like that was a win. Like those things were so hard. And yeah, I just somewhere along the line just like fell in love with running and just ran more and more. I remember I'd do like an hour long run and be so wrecked. I couldn't run for a week after, but just kept with it. And every time I'd run, I'd try to, you know, either run a little bit further or run a little bit faster and just continued to push myself. And at one point was like, I just did. I just ran 10 miles without stopping. Like I could probably like sign up and train for a marathon and signed up for my first marathon in 2019. OC Marathon and the rest is kind of history.
- [50:30]
Rich Roll
2019 was your first marathon. Like that was not that long ago. When did you realize that you were actually good at this? Was it that first marathon?
- [50:40]
Max Joliff
I think it was that first marathon. I after like talking with some people and I dude, I knew nothing going into it. I just had heard from some people that maybe four hours is a decent time goal. Which for the average person, I think four hours is a very, very good and very achievable goal. And then I ran 3 hours and 27 minutes. Like I ran, you know, over 30 minutes faster than I was even expecting.
- [51:05]
Rich Roll
And without knowing what you were doing?
- [51:07]
Max Joliff
Yeah, without knowing what I was doing, I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then, you know, signing up for another marathon. I think my second one was LA Marathon. Ran a 306. You know, it was like that kind of kept happening to me where I'd have this maybe like just too conservative goal for myself and I would just blow my expectations out of the water. And then that carried on into, you know, my third marathon. I ran 240, 248 or 247 or something. Boston qualified, got like 14th or something at the race. And Then, you know, my first ultra, I mean it was a super Competitive Ultra Race, 50K Broken Arrow sky race. I, I, I, it wasn't, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't that good of a performance. But I did beat all of my other friends that I was doing it with who were like fairly accomplished runners and had been, you know, running ultra races and running for a long time. And I'm like brand new in this thing and I'm like, okay, I'm like actually surprising myself at every turn. And it really wasn't until I ran my first 50 miler, which was in 2020, the end of 2022 or 2023, and I signed up for this race saddles 50 miler. It's in Arizona. It's a satisfy sponsored race. Michael Verstique puts it on. And I was out there just hanging out and they were like, hey, we got a bib for you if you want to run just the night before the race. And I was like, I don't really have any nutrition or electrolytes or anything, but I, you know, I got my vest and you know, there's some like old expired gels that are like in this like Tupperware thing. I'm like, I, I could just pee somebody. I'll just run the race for fun. And ended up jumping into the 50 miler the next morning and ended up winning, which was like the, and then after that I was like, okay, like there might be something here. And you know, I'm really am starting to feel the success that I'm having. And I was like, I'm just like really gonna lean into this thing. Like, maybe this running thing is my thing, you know, that I've been looking for for so long. Like I've, I've just never really ever been good at anything. And then I find this thing where I'm starting to have a little bit, bit of success and I'm like, maybe this is it. I'm just gonna go all in on this thing.
- [53:21]
Rich Roll
So that was it. Like, okay, now whether or not this is my thing almost doesn't matter. I'm deciding that it is and I'm gonna just focus on it. Exactly. Take all of my, you know, kind of like, you know, addict obsessiveness and just like here.
- [53:39]
Max Joliff
Yes, exactly.
- [53:41]
Rich Roll
Into this thing. That also, not for nothing, is pretty good at emotional regulation. You know what I mean? Like when, you know, like that antsy kind of addicty feeling of like not feeling comfortable in your own skin. Yes. And like, this is pretty good at managing that.
- [53:57]
Max Joliff
And if you're training super hard during the day, it's like I always say, it almost feels like you just have to exhaust yourself. You're so exhausted. You almost have this like force field around you where like anything that, like, someone might say to you that might like, irritate you or piss you off, it just like, that stuff just seems to like, bounce off you. You're just like, more content with life. It like, almost does the same thing that like, drugs and alcohol will do
- [54:17]
Rich Roll
for you, you know, so do people, I'm sure they do, like, say, oh, well, you just transferred your addiction. Like, you're just, you're out of control, Max. Like, you're just, you're just a dry drunk. Like with all this ultra running stuff. How do you answer that?
- [54:32]
Max Joliff
Well, I mean, for. I mean, for, you know, over 10 years, I was like super involved and plugged in with Alcoholics Anonymous and, you know, have had a sponsor and sponsors. It's not until, like maybe the last couple of years where I've just. I just have been blessed with this path that I just have to go down. And my time is very limited and, you know, I'm doing so much traveling and training that I haven't been able to like, make it to AA and be like super active and involved with meetings in a group in a little while. But yeah, I mean, I would totally agree. Like, I take everything to the extreme and running is definitely one of those things. But at least it's, you know, a healthy outlet that's become a very fruitful part of my life and brought me so many blessings and so many friends and so many experiences that I never would have been able to experience if
- [55:21]
Rich Roll
it wasn't for, I mean, it certainly expanding your life aperture, not like narrowing it in the way that drugs and alcohol do. But there is also the, the kind of warning signs or the danger zone of making these races and this sport your higher power.
- [55:38]
Max Joliff
Yeah. And I totally know where you're coming from. And there's something that happens with training and sometimes during races where, like, I feel closest to God during those times and I, like, have a stronger relationship with God today than I ever did being super involved and plugged in with aa. And I don't know if that's just a product of, you know, seeing the blessings that he's given to me in my life. But yeah, I'm very cognizant of the fact that, like, I can't rely on racing and training to be my everything. I do still have to be carrying the message and being of service and surrounding myself with good people who are on like the same path as me and invested in the same lifestyle as me and just like also on the pursuit of bettering their lives and being better people.
- [56:42]
Rich Roll
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Money stress is something most of us carry at some point in our lives. It's not just numbers on a spreadsheet. It can shape how we sleep, how we show up in relationships, and the pressure we put on ourselves when things feel uncertain. Believe me when I tell you I have weathered some extremely challenging financial storms in my life and I know that the intense stress, the distress, the anxiety, the pressure and the overwhelm it can cause. And what I've learned is that those feelings often go deeper than the dollars themselves. Therapy has been extremely helpful to me in understanding the deep seated beliefs that distorted my relationship with money and really helped me develop healthier ways to cope with that pressure. If you're new to the idea of therapy, BetterHelp is a great way to get connected with fully licensed therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct. After answering a few questions about what you're looking for, they match you with a therapist so you can focus on your goals and if the fit isn't right, you can switch anytime. With more than 30,000 therapists and over 6 million people served globally, BetterHelp has helped many people find support. With an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com richroll that's betterhelp.com richroll this episode is sponsored by Rivian. Our phones get better over time. Our watches do. Even our thermostats do. There's no reason why our cars shouldn't. And that's one of the things that really sets Rivian apart. These are deeply intelligent connected vehicles that evolve over time through over the air updates. One day it's a refined interface, the next it's a new feature like pet comfort so your dog stays cool while you run into the store. Just the other week I woke up to Universal Hands Free Review Rivian's driver assistance system. It's just wild how my car just keeps getting better and smarter. And the thing is, it's not just fancy bells and whistles. The tech is actually useful because everything that Rivian does serves function. Thoughtful safety features, adaptive lighting that responds to the road and other drivers, an app that lets you plan trips with charging stops built in and warm or cool the car before you ever step outside. It's advanced, but never overwhelming, seamless, super intuitive, designed for real life. It might be the most sophisticated piece of technology you own, but it's built to help you focus on what matters, the journey. When you think about the tools of sobriety, how do they inform or how have they made you like a better runner? I'm always interested in this relationship between these two worlds. You come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better, but are pretty applicable as an athlete. And the decisions that you make about what's important and where to focus your energy and your time and how to hone your mindset and, you know, kind of push your body.
- [60:12]
Max Joliff
I think the biggest thing is like just knowing that nothing is ever going to be as hard as getting sober. That will forever be the hardest thing that I've ever done. And no matter what, like no matter how hard training or how much pain I'm in during a race, like nothing is worse than kicking heroin in jail. So like just knowing that having that in the back of my mind is, you know, a big kind of like motivating factor that I can and I am able to do these really hard things. But I think more so is just like just being able to surrender to circumstances and situations that are out of your control, which a lot of ultra running is just like problem solving and dealing with these things that just pop up and are out of your control and being, being, you know, able to just roll with the punches and I mean even more so just being a public figure or a person on social media. I think the tools of AA have helped me navigate this weird world that is social media and you know, putting my story out online and just dealing with people, you know, in person, it's like, it's always great. There's never any issues at races. Like the community is amazing. I've only ever had good encounters or interactions with people. It's, you know, online where there's can be some resistance or just like weird that goes on with people online. And I, I, that's where I really have to lean on the tools of AA to, you know, not fire back at people online and not make comments, you know, and just keep my mouth shut and you know, take an, take an inventory and admit when I am wrong, when I do something stupid or fire off something, you know, a comment that hurts someone's feelings, like take a step back, do a 10th step and reflect on like, okay, what is my part in this? Like where was I wrong? Like this is a human being who has real feelings and emotions and like I, I just want to keep my side of the street clean and not have someone, you know, with their feelings hurt because of some stupid that I said. So yeah, I, I mean I'm, you know, a real person. I'm, you know, am emotional. I struggle with the same things that everyone else does. I'm not perfect. But you know, being brought up and learning from the principles of AA has helped me be able to like just deal with that and be a man, you know.
- [62:53]
Rich Roll
I'm glad that you mentioned surrender because I think that that's like a key piece in all of this. You can't get sober if you're relying on your self will. You're going to just relapse and relapse and relapse if you think that you're going to be able to figure it out on your own. It's only when you get to that point where you are willing to let go, let people in and understand that you're not the center of the universe and don't have all the answers and that you're more powerless than powerful. And in the context of, you know, running ultras, you have to be in a state of surrender. There's too many variables, it's too long. The distances are so mind boggling. You have no control over the elements or the other competitors. I mean that's true in any athletics but the only way you're going to be able to get from the starting line to, you know, 240 miles later is if you are, you know, in that, in that state of like surrender, like, okay, God, like, you know, help me get from here to there and like I don't know what's going to happen but you know, I'm not going to be able to do it completely under my own power and I certainly have no control over all the things that might happen along the way and
- [64:07]
Max Joliff
to like always remain being teachable, you know, like always trying to learn the lessons and a lot of these races like I'm just like, I'm learning as I'm going, like I'm still very new to this thing. Even the 200 mile distances are a very new world within ultra running. So yeah, just trying to, and it's like a lot of it's uncharted territory and trying to learn from the mistakes that I made and I've made so many mistakes, like I really honestly haven't felt like I've had a good 200 mile race yet. Like I've won one, I've DNF'd another and had, you know, a decent podium performance at another race. But I, like, I really feel like I haven't cracked the code at that distance. I've had some.
- [64:50]
Rich Roll
Dude, you've only been doing this a couple years.
- [64:52]
Max Joliff
No, right.
- [64:53]
Rich Roll
You're still like so new. I mean, the idea of these 200 mile races is new. You're new to it. You're also super young. And the other people that are excelling at those distances are like 20 years older than you and have been like running for, you know, most of their lives.
- [65:08]
Max Joliff
Sure, yeah. But I mean it's. I think it's more so just all of us like learning together on this new thing, you know, like, what's the.
- [65:16]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it's brand new.
- [65:17]
Max Joliff
What's the best way to handle sleep in a 200 mile race? You know, like, no one's really cracked the code or figured it out. So just. Yeah, me, I always try to like, take valuable lessons and learn from these races and be able to apply it into future races. So, yeah, that's just like another principle of, you know, the programs, like, learn from your mistakes, Try not to do it again, like, be teachable.
- [65:44]
Rich Roll
I mean, I think when I think of the ultra world, like, we forget, like, it's so new, you know, the idea of this being a competitive landscape and to the extent that people are like, well, this is how you train for 100 and this is how you do. It's like. Is it, you know, like, I think like we're at the very beginning of trying to figure out, you know, what the best way to approach these kind of races are. And that's what makes people like David Roche so interesting, you know, like they're trying different things and like, who knows what's, what's going to, you know, pan out or not. But like he's sort of approaching it like a scientist in a lab and I think that's real. And sharing it transparently, which I think
- [66:20]
Max Joliff
is really so much respect to him for sharing everything publicly. It's like.
- [66:23]
Rich Roll
And that's like in the, at the 100 mile range.
- [66:25]
Max Joliff
Yeah.
- [66:26]
Rich Roll
But, you know, then you get to the, like, I think people equate these things like, oh, 5100, 200, it's all the same. Like these things are wildly. The universe is apart. And, and I think when it comes to like, the distances that you're excelling at, like this is just, you know, the wild west right now.
- [66:42]
Max Joliff
Yeah.
- [66:43]
Rich Roll
I was out to dinner the other night with some friends and Molly Seidel was, was there and I never met her before. For people don't know, she won the bronze medal in the, in the Olympics in 2020 and she's now like, you know, like moving into the ultra world. And to me that's super exciting. Like, I think that when you start to see, you know, Olympic gold, Olympic medalists and like, you know, people who are like, you know, in the, in the top, top, top of the, the kind of international marathon world decide to move into the ultra world, we're going to see a lot of innovation and a lot of records being broken because they're bringing, you know, kind of an elite legacy into a, a world that's really untapped right now. Yeah.
- [67:32]
Max Joliff
And she, I mean, props to Molly. Just earning a golden ticket at I think her second ultra race ever. So she'll be in, right. Western states, the most competitive 100 miler. Yeah. Super excited for her. I've met her before. She's an amazing human being. And yeah, I would love to see more of those kind of higher profile people coming into trail. I mean, it's great for the sport and trail running is booming. I mean, maybe I'm biased, but I feel like trail running and ultra running is growing at a faster rate than maybe any sport out there right now. Yeah.
- [68:06]
Rich Roll
What do you foresee for the future near and far in the sport? Just the sport generally, not yourself in it, but like, where is this, where is this heading in terms of like, is the popularity going to continue to grow, do you think, like you're going to see more? I mean, it seems to me like there's going to be more money coming in. We already see what happened with utmb. Like, that's going to continue. And as soon as there's more money there, more of the Molly Seidels are going to like, if you're on the, if you're on the world marathon circuit and you're coming in, you know, 8th or 10th in these races consistently, you're like, I don't know, 10 minutes off the pace or whatever. Like, why not move? Like the ultra world is like wide open for you.
- [68:46]
Max Joliff
Yeah. And I think, you know, as more eyes grow on the sport, you know, the brands are going to be forking over more money. We will get some of those athletes that are crossing over and we're starting to see it. So I envision the sport just growing as a whole. It's really is a very accessible sport. Like, you can essentially do it in so many different places in the US and throughout the world. I mean, it's a worldwide sport. And yeah, I think also just a lot of people just really crave and have a desire to do hard things. And there's nothing more simple and challenging than just running really far.
- [69:27]
Rich Roll
Yeah, all you need is a pair of shoes, too. Well, and now with these, like, you know, these, these, these backyard ultras and all, like, all these, you know, unique formats that are popping up, people designing their own challenges. Like, there's no barrier to entry to this.
- [69:41]
Max Joliff
And then like, how. I mean, there's, you know, the monster 300. There's a 300 mile rate. Like, what are we gonna say? I mean, I've heard people. I've heard people talking about. And I kind of exists in this
- [69:52]
Rich Roll
whole other world talking about doing 500.
- [69:55]
Max Joliff
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, even so, you can go, you can race the John Mir trail or, you know, the Pacific crest trail, like, doing fkts. Like, that's a whole nother world of ultra running that there's almost like, there's people who do that that don't even really run races. They just are focused on setting records and setting times on, like, super long distance. I mean, in FKT can be any little route that's, you know, 20 miles up, up to, you know, the Pacific crest trail. That's 3,000 miles.
- [70:22]
Rich Roll
You know, the amazing thing about your story is the fact that it's such an unlikely story. Like, you've been living your whole life with this, like, reservoir of potential you had no idea about. And. But for like, a couple things that happened, you might have lived your entire life never going on a run or realizing that you have this capacity. And when you reflect on that, you can't help but think, well, how many, like, is this something that is like how many millions or billions of people are walking around. Yeah. With capacities and capabilities that they're not aware of because they never are in a situation or presented with an opportunity to kind of do the math and, you know, like, square that equation.
- [71:07]
Max Joliff
Right. I think, like, yeah, if you're a person who's listening or curious about ultra running or just running in general, like, maybe just like, maybe just try it. You know, maybe it could end up being that thing for you and. Or like, maybe it's not even running. Maybe it's playing guitar or artwork or whatever. Like, I just, I hope that people just, like, find something that they're into and just, Just pour everything that they have into it. And I don't, I, I think about this all the time. Like, back when I was younger, I, I used to think it was so cool seeing people who just like, effortlessly were good at things. And I think now I have so much more respect for people who actually care and people who actually try hard and people who like, fail at things over and over and over and they dedicate their lives to, you know, going back to maybe a race or whatever it is. But like, I really like watching and hearing stories of people just overcoming adversity and really trying hard. Like, I thought it was so cool to like, not care or not give a about anything. But like, nowadays I'm like, I love people who like, like give a and like, want to dedicate everything in their life to one specific pursuit. Like, I think that is so sick and so cool.
- [72:34]
Rich Roll
When you think about your life now and reflect upon, you know, where you were not that long ago, like, it must just be mind blowing. Astonishing.
- [72:45]
Max Joliff
Yeah, it seems like an almost an entire lifetime ago. Like, I, like, I haven't had the urge or the thought of drinking or using in like a very long time. Like, I was, was blessed with the gift of the obsession being lifted, like quite a long time ago and it's never came back. And I'm super grateful for that. I think there's something that people say that every 16 years or something, like all of the cells in your body quite literally are replaced. So it, I, I really do feel like it was an entire lifetime ago and my life is so different now that I, you know, every year on my sobriety date, I do a lot of reflecting and I just try not to get, not to forget what it felt like that day before I got sober. And like, that's something that I always need to remember that this whole thing really is a daily reprieve. And if I, you know, slip up and make the mistake of putting something in my body that can cause the allergy and the craving of, of alcoholism, like, I'm right back to square one and I don't ever want to go back there again. Like, as much as my life is different today and I have so much to lose, I, like, I'm really one bad day away from being right back at square one trying to get sober again. And it's so much easier to just stay sober than to try to get sober again. And I don't ever want to have to do that again.
- [74:13]
Rich Roll
What do you say to the person who looks at you and says, well, you know, Max is different from me, obviously. He's this gifted runner. I can see how he was able to, you know, pull himself up, you know, from his. With his bootstraps and change his life and, you know, become this runner. But, like, I, I don't. I don't really see how I'm going to be able to make that change. Like, what have you learned about just the nature of change itself or the power that we all have to make a significant life change?
- [74:45]
Max Joliff
I mean, I felt the same, same exact way for a long time. There's. There's no way that, you know, sitting in meetings, listening to people tell their stories, it's like, well, yeah, like, that's true for you. But I'm. I'm different, you know, terminally unique. I'm terminally unique. I, you know, what, what, what you suffer from and what you feel in your head is like, just not what I'm feeling. And I'm different and just like, you know, I just would love to be an example. Like, I'm, I'm no different than anyone. Like, I'm not talented. I'm not special. I suffer from the same thing that like, literally millions of other people suffer from. And, you know, there is a solution if you want it, as long as you're willing to do the work. And that's true for getting sober. That's true for, you know, getting good at anything. Like running. It's like if you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve, and you do put in the work, anything is possible.
- [75:46]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's the great thing about running. I mean, you said it earlier, like, if you put in the work, you see the results. And when you start seeing the results, then you feel more connected to it. And, you know, as. As we say in the rooms, like, you know, self esteem is built on the shoulders of performing esteemable acts. And like, going out and running, running is an esteemable act on behalf of yourself. Right. You know what I mean? The more you do that, the better you feel about yourself, and then you see that progress and you want to do more these things. And it doesn't have to be running. It can be whatever, whatever your curiosity is fascinated by.
- [76:18]
Max Joliff
That's almost exactly the inverse of the more I drink, the worse my life gets. The worse my life gets, the more I drink and use and do drugs. And the more I do drugs, the worse my life gets. So it's, it's. Exactly.
- [76:31]
Rich Roll
But you don't understand my problems, Max. And when I wake up in the morning it's so bad I have to drink, you know, and then there goes the cycle. Around and around and around. On a mindset level, I've heard you say, like, you're, you know, like, you're just a never quit guy, right? Like, how do you think about mindset and what are some of the ways that you try to, you know, foster a growth mindset?
- [76:55]
Max Joliff
Yeah, the never quit mindset. I mean, that's a tough thing. I almost invested too much of, like, my identity into being someone that's like, never gonna quit or gonna die before I quit. And then when I'm finally presented with a situation during a race where I'm like, quite literally about to die, you know, at mile 238 of a 250mile race, and I have, you know, and endless amount of problems going on with me and people around me are very scared for me in my life and I have to make that hard decision of, like, letting my ego go and like, okay, this race is over. I'm gonna drop. I'm gonna have to quit this race and I'm going straight to the hospital, which is what happened to me at Cocodona last year. It's kind of like, changed my perspective and I've kind of let go of the, like, I'm not like, invincible. I'm really not that tough. Like, and, you know, I'd rather. I'd rather just fight another day, you know, like, we all, you know, have these situations and points within races or any part of our life where, like, today is just not the day. And I've experienced that. And I now look back and think, like, oh, I was a little bit naive to think that there's never going to be a situation where I'm ever going to give up. But I think for the most part, like, I try not to make quitting an option. And I think that just kind of goes back to just sobriety. There was like, like drinking and I had to in my head make it like, absolutely mandatory that I was never going to use again, like, no matter what. And with running, maybe I just tried to borrow that philosophy with racing. Like, I'm just never going to quit when in reality, like, there are going to be situations where you quit. And as much as I would have loved to have gone my, my entire career never having quit or dropped from a race, it's like, I'm doing some of the hardest races in the world. It's bound to happen. Yeah, of course.
- [79:01]
Rich Roll
Right. So, I mean, but that binary is helpful, right? Especially in the early Days. Like the. When you're in the room, it's like, it's very clear. Like, you. You're either sober or you're not. You know, it's like there's no gray area, you know, but life is full of grays. But when you get into running and you're like, okay, well, I'm going to use that rule that works so well for me in this context, text and apply it over here. There's value in that initially, but then as you grow and evolve, like, you have to, you know, you have to amend these rules.
- [79:27]
Max Joliff
And I think a lot of that just boils. Boils down to ego. You know, it all comes down to ego.
- [79:32]
Rich Roll
So when you're. When you. You mentioned, you know, doing inventories, when you are, like, doing. Whether it's a daily inventory or more formal inventory, like, what are the. What are the patterns that continue to. To kind of recur that. That trip you up that, you know, that you still need to work on?
- [79:52]
Max Joliff
I think a lot of it just has to do with patience, you know, having patience with people. A lot of it has to do with, you know, fear, like, I may react a certain way because I'm just. I'm just afraid of people not liking me or, you know, things not working out or. Yeah, just, like, getting angry over stupid shit. You know, I think just, like, having real human emotions that all of us, all of us have. And like, I. Dude, it's like, I am so a product of my parents. Like, I see the things that I suffer from are, like, character flaws that. That have just been passed down to me. And, like, me being impatient or me, you know, getting angry or upset or just all of those things are just a. I mean, almost a part of my genetics. And at least, you know, being aware and cognizant of those things and addressing them when they happen and immediately, like, trying to figure out, okay, what's the part that I played in this? Like, where was I wrong? Let me, you know, fix this. Whether it's, you know, an apology, like, I always try to. And it's almost like I am a confrontational person, but I will, like, if anything happens or comes up, I will immediately, like, try to squash it and, you know, fix things. Like, yeah, I just a human being like everyone else. Like, I have. I have of. I'm not perfect.
- [81:33]
Rich Roll
How's the. How's the imposter syndrome going?
- [81:36]
Max Joliff
Oh, God.
- [81:37]
Rich Roll
I mean, yeah, I definitely have surprises, people, when you. Because you're very. You're. You talk about it a lot.
- [81:44]
Max Joliff
I Don't know. I think I came up in an era when like self promotion and self glorification was like very frowned upon, you know, And I think, I don't know, I'm just like so hyper critical of myself and almost kind of like my own worst enemy. And like another thing with, you know, just that comes at me online, it's like nothing that anyone can say is like any worse than what I actually feel about myself. I am very self deprecating and feel like I'm not good enough and I'm not enough and you know, that's just, you know, a pattern of thinking that's just existed within me for a long time and you know, a work in progress to feel any different. But yeah, the. I mean, I feel like. I don't know, I, I think a lot of it boils down to like. I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that maybe don't respect me or my accomplishments or don't want to give me the credit that I feel like I deserve and that's okay. You know, I'm like not running the most competitive races in the world. Like, I'm just like carving my own path and doing stuff that intrigues me. And I really actually don't like competing. Like, I don't like the racing. I don't like the competitiveness of it. I just like really crave the challenge. And it's really easy to find the challenges within these races. Especially like that super, super long distance stuff.
- [83:12]
Rich Roll
Like you're not racing against anyone else anyway in those.
- [83:14]
Max Joliff
I. Dude, I think the Barkley marathons is the sickest race ever because none of the people are racing against each other. They're racing against the race. Race. It's like no one wins. It's just finishers, you know, Like, I, I love that. I just really crave the challenge. And yeah, it's like I, I see shit that people say about me online and maybe, maybe I shouldn't even ever
- [83:37]
Rich Roll
learn any of it. Yeah, you keep coming back to this thing. I think that's where your work is. The, like finding a way to detach from all of that. Obviously this is like, like agitating you, right? You know, this, this, this thing. And it has nothing to do with you, you know, it's just, it's other stuff, but it's renting a lot of space in your mind.
- [83:55]
Max Joliff
You know, I'm, I'm aware of it and it like, you know, somehow it just always seems to, to get to me. But so, I mean, but it's, it's all good. I mean, I'm. I'm grateful for everything. I know I'm just like, only getting better. I'm only making progress and I'm like, not even close to where my potential could be.
- [84:13]
Rich Roll
So I think you're just, I think you're just beginning, but I think to the extent that you have some degree of imposter syndrome or have an attachment to being perceived in a certain way, like, these are, these are all human traits, obviously, but at the same time, you have to have, you know, incredible self belief to toe the line at a race like Moab and say, like, you know, I'm. I'm in the hunt for this thing or, you know, like, I have a chance to win this thing. Like, those two things are in conflict with each other. I mean, this is a very kind of like alcoholic trait.
- [84:47]
Max Joliff
Right.
- [84:49]
Rich Roll
And it's interesting how they can cohabitate with each other. Like, I'm an imposter. They're gonna come and tell me, like, you know, we figured you out at the same time, thinking, like, I'm gonna win this race. You know what I mean? Because I'm better than these guys. You know what I mean?
- [85:05]
Max Joliff
It's insane.
- [85:06]
Rich Roll
Like, how does that work?
- [85:07]
Max Joliff
Yeah. I mean, hating yourself but thinking that you're the go at the same. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, it's. That's alcohol. That's the ism of alcoholism, is the, the ego and self obsession and. Yeah, it's, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. Yeah.
- [85:24]
Rich Roll
What's the key race this year? What. What are you focused on?
- [85:28]
Max Joliff
I'm really excited to go back to Cocodona and just get a finish out there. I just got so close last year that I really want to cross the finish line. That's like my main goal and objective of that race. But then a couple months after that, I'm running Badwater 135. Yeah. Which is a. Exciting and challenge.
- [85:49]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Yeah. But you are somebody who does well in the heat.
- [85:53]
Max Joliff
Yeah.
- [85:53]
Rich Roll
So this is playing your strength.
- [85:55]
Max Joliff
Some of my best performances.
- [85:56]
Rich Roll
And it's pavement.
- [85:58]
Max Joliff
Yeah. It's a road. I'm okay at road running.
- [86:01]
Rich Roll
Yeah. How are you changing your training to. To make sure that you're ready for that race?
- [86:07]
Max Joliff
So, I mean, I'm lucky that I live here in Southern California and Death Valley is really only like a four hour drive, so I'm actually just planning on spending a bunch of time out there. Like, I'm unemployed now. I don't Have a job. So I can quite literally have a job. Yeah.
- [86:24]
Rich Roll
You don't have a. Yeah, yeah, I
- [86:25]
Max Joliff
don't have a corporate job. I mean, this is your job. This is my job. Right. Imposter syndrome again. But no, I'm. I ju. I just plan on going out there a bunch this year and just doing a ton of training out there, especially in the summer once it starts to heat up. But yeah, that's, that's a really exciting race that's intrigued me for a really long time. I think I first found out about that race watching Sally McCrae win it back in. God, what was that? 21:22 When I first kind of started discovering ultra races. And you know, I grew up going out to Death Valley and doing camping and Boy Scout stuff as a little kid out there. So just having a, you know, a connection with that area and then being able to, you know, race my wind, race my way into the race, like winning Sean O', Brien, which got me a ticket into AC100 and then I went AC100 which got me a ticket into Bad Water. So it's kind of been this cool like progression of races to, to get me there. But I do really well in the heat. I've actually been working with Satisfy to help create some heat specific product that will be. That I'll be wearing for the. I mean it'll be coming out and I'll be wearing it for the first time at Badwater. So it's been like the response to
- [87:42]
Rich Roll
the Nike ACG like mesh shirt that what's his name wore at Western States last year.
- [87:47]
Max Joliff
It's, it's a bit different. I mean that's kind of one, one item. But this is like a full kit. I mean when you see people at Badwater just like how everyone's decked out in white sleeves.
- [87:58]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [87:58]
Max Joliff
You know, I don't want to give away too much of what the product is.
- [88:01]
Rich Roll
Like white Beekeeper suits.
- [88:03]
Max Joliff
Yeah, everyone's just all kitted out in everything white just because it's so hot and the sun is so harsh. But it was, it was a really cool opportunity getting to work with them and present them with like, hey, this is like I live in, I live in this area where I'm running all these like super hot races. It would be really cool and fun to develop some heat specific products and you know, presented the idea to them. They worked on creating some stuff, sent me prototypes. I've been wear testing them and then we were just in South America and shot the campaign for, for all this stuff. So it was a really cool, like, kind of full circle moment. And I'll be able to wear and race and use the product at Badwater this year. So that's been like, really fun and exciting.
- [88:45]
Rich Roll
And you're putting the treadmill in the sauna like some of these guys have over the years. I think Harvey Lewis.
- [88:51]
Max Joliff
Yeah.
- [88:52]
Rich Roll
Used to do that.
- [88:52]
Max Joliff
So I have a, I have like a stair climber machine, a stepper stair climber machine in my garage. And in the summer my garage will get like 85 to 90 degrees. So I'll do that. And then I saw, I saw David Roche doing all his heat suit training. So I, I just bought like this Tyvek Painters heat suit and cut the feet off of it. So I'll do the stair climber with the heat suit on in the summer. That's kind of like one way that I'm doing active heat training. But I'm also like toying with ideas of like, do I build like a tent in my backyard and get like a cheap little treadmill or a bike trainer and just throw my bike and some heaters in this thing and be able to do some active heat. I just feel so bad going to the gym and being like that guy in the sauna that's like doing squats or lunges or something. It's just like kind of obnoxious. So I'm, I'll do the, you know, the passive heat training in the sauna at the gym and then, then I'll do, you know, the active heat training in the garage. Maybe I'll, you know, do another. But like, my whole year this year is very focused on like building durability and volume and heat training. Because all my races this year, Cocodona is tip. I mean, not last year was freezing cold, which was a freak year. But usually Cocodona is a very hot race. Bad water, hottest race in the world. And then AC100 right here in the San Gabriel's is typically very hot. They did move the race from August to October going forward, so hopefully it'll be a little bit more mild temperatures. But I mean, last year when I won it, it was over 100 degrees during the day, so.
- [90:23]
Rich Roll
Have you met David Roche?
- [90:25]
Max Joliff
No, I haven't.
- [90:26]
Rich Roll
You. You gotta talk to this guy. You guys should. You guys should. I'm a fan. Compare notes.
- [90:30]
Max Joliff
I'm a fan. Yeah.
- [90:32]
Rich Roll
What is a day in the life of training now that you're, you know, liberated from having like any kind of day job and you can just focus on that?
- [90:41]
Max Joliff
Yeah. I still feel like, weirdly like I'm still as busy. I got, you know, quite a few things going on in the works where I'm working on some collabs and doing some freelance stuff and working on building my personal brand. So as much as I thought that I was, you know, I got let go from my job and I was like, I'm just gonna run 200 miles a week now. Didn't, didn't really work out like that, nor would that be a smart thing to do. But yeah, my, my mornings are typically wake up, have a coffee, chill with my dogs, maybe take them for a run, four to five miles and then have a little bite to eat, maybe hop on a call or two and then do a midday run, maybe 10 to 15 miles. So trying to hit 15 to 20 miles a day. Also my fiance, Mackenzie, she's a personal trainer. So I've been getting in to the gym with her quite a bit more now that, that, you know, I don't have to be in the office at 8am I can, you know, two to three days a week in the mornings go work out with her and then, yeah, just getting to travel and run pretty much any race that I want anywhere in the world has been super cool and fun and exciting. And just last weekend going to Austin Marathon and running Austin Marathon was super fun. So, yeah, just kind of getting to do whatever I want and really focused on getting all of the training in with a lot less distractions has been really nice.
- [92:12]
Rich Roll
How many miles did you run the week leading up to the Austin Marathon?
- [92:18]
Max Joliff
This probably wasn't smart, but I, like, I didn't really plan on racing the race. I kind of was just going into
- [92:26]
Rich Roll
it that was more like, you're there for this brand and it's a bunch of dudes or we're gonna hang out. Oh, and they're having happens to be a marathon.
- [92:32]
Max Joliff
And I haven't been doing a ton of marathon specific training.
- [92:35]
Rich Roll
Like I'm training on the track, throwing down like, like intervals. Are you like, like speed work and stuff like that? Are you?
- [92:43]
Max Joliff
I, I had been a little bit here and there. Like, I, I do know that that is still a very important part of ultra training. I, I being in the best shape that you can and being as fast as you can is great running shape. So I do, you know, I try to be consistent with throwing in speed work, speed workouts and doing longer tempo and threshold workouts, which I kind of had been doing because I was toying with the idea of running Surf City Marathon. Which is in Huntington. It's around the same time as the Austin Marathon. But BPN had reached out and they were like, hey, we're. I mean, they're the main sponsor the. Of the Austin Marathon. They were like, hey, couple of you athletes, like, we want you to come out. If you want to run the race, cool. If not, all good. And I was like, I'll just like, jump into the full, um, use it as a training run for Antelope Island 50 miler, which is another race I got coming up in March. Um, but, yeah, I didn't even know what I was gonna do up until the morning of the race. Like, I was like, should I. Should I run hard or should I just cruise? Or should I be like a pacer for like a 2 4? I thought I was gonna run like maybe 2:45 or something. I didn't know what kind of shape I was in. I haven't raced a road marathon in over a year. I mean, hadn't specifically trained for a road marathon or PR'd in over three years. So I, yeah, I just ended up showing up to the start line and my friend Matt Lanahan, teammate of mine on satisfy, he just ran a Olympic trials qualifier at CIM in December. And I was out there and during the race, I thought it was so cool. He just, he set his watch to time of day mode and just didn't pay any attention to any splits. Didn't look at his heart rate, just nothing. Just ran what he felt like was sustainable for him on that day and was right there with the lead pack and ran his personal best and OTQ'd. I was, like, so stoked for him, and I thought that was, like, so sick and cool. So at awesome Marathon, I was like, I'm just gonna do what Matt did. I'm just gonna set my watch to time of day mode and use this run as just a solid, steady, hard run workout. And ended up pring the race.
- [94:52]
Rich Roll
Yeah, well, that is. That is sort of a surrender lesson also. You're like, I'm just here. I'm going to be present for the experience and, you know, let it tell me what it wants to be or whatever, whatever. Relax.
- [95:02]
Max Joliff
Yeah, whatever. My fitness is today is what it is. So just, you know, do that. I don't need to.
- [95:09]
Rich Roll
Which is the opposite. Sort of an antidote to the kind of fitness culture like optimization, like, obsession that people have, like, you know, with every little metric being dialed in and, and, you know, athletes at your level, like, you have that connection with your body, like you know what it feels like, you know what you're capable of and like, you don't need to be dependent upon all of these things because there's like intuit, like there's a, there's a integration, you know, and sometimes it
- [95:38]
Max Joliff
is just better to listen to your body and to run intuitively and just give the best that you can on that day. Like the numbers don't really matter.
- [95:45]
Rich Roll
So you must have been happy with a 234.
- [95:47]
Max Joliff
Oh, was stuck.
- [95:48]
Rich Roll
Crazy.
- [95:48]
Max Joliff
Yeah, I was, I was, I had no idea. I. You know, the only split that I saw was when I crossed the. There was a timer at the halfway point and I saw one 1740 something and I was like having flashbacks of CIM where I went out too fast and ran, you know, a 116 half and just absolutely blew up in the second half and. Awesome. Marathon isn't known for being a PR course. Like it's a thousand feet of gain. And on like on the day it was like 20 mile an hour. It was like super windy. So the conditions were not ideal. The course was not ideal.
- [96:19]
Rich Roll
Deal.
- [96:20]
Max Joliff
And I saw my split at the halfway point. I was like, oh no, here it comes, I'm gonna blow up.
- [96:24]
Rich Roll
And you're hanging out with the BPN guys. You're probably like, they're making you like lift weights.
- [96:29]
Max Joliff
We were lifting weights the day before. But to get back to your. What was my training the week. So the week before I ran a 146 mile week.
- [96:38]
Rich Roll
146 miles the week leading before Austin.
- [96:42]
Max Joliff
Before Austin, yeah. Just because I was more focused on the 50 miler that was coming up and I, I was like, ah, the ra. Like running the marathon doesn't really matter. I'm probably not going to PR anyway, so I'm just going to, I'm just going to keep my volume up and use the race as a hard run workout. And ended up running also 100 miles the week of the race. So the race ended on Saturday. So I ended up finishing the week with 100 miles. And then this last week I ran another 100 miles. So I'm like really just focused on like the ultra training and just keeping high volume and keeping my mileage up and building the durability and doing tons of heat trap. I mean, dude, we were out there sitting in Nick's sauna and the sauna at the BPN hq and those are like the hottest saunas in the world. Like 200°, over 200°. Just absolutely cooking in there. But yeah, it was a really Fun and amazing trip and I honestly just had no expectations going into the race. I just kind of sent it for fun and went off feeling had a great result. Yeah.
- [97:37]
Rich Roll
Going into the season. What is motivating all of this? What is the source of your motivation? Do you have a sense of what that is? What's the animating energy behind all of it for you?
- [97:54]
Max Joliff
I think just the desire to push myself to whatever this potential is that I have and just my desire to do hard things. I just love training and I love the process of prepping for a race and I love putting in the work. And as much as I don't love a lot of aspects of the competitiveness of races, I do love the adventure of races. Yeah, I think it just really boils down to I just like a challenge. I just like doing hard things and I like pushing myself and I like seeing the tangible results of my hard work, which is, you know, what you can get if you put in the work and race really hard and pour your heart and soul into this thing. Like if you put in the work, you will get results.
- [98:48]
Rich Roll
When are you getting married?
- [98:50]
Max Joliff
June.
- [98:51]
Rich Roll
And she's like your crew captain, right? Like she's the essential team member? Yeah, I mean she's thing.
- [98:58]
Max Joliff
She's like kind of like my coach, my strength and conditioning.
- [99:00]
Rich Roll
I was gonna ask you, like, you don't have, you don't have a proper coach?
- [99:04]
Max Joliff
No, but I'm like, I'm very obsessed like with like, I mean training and product and every like I'm always like learning things and I like, I just like see like it's pretty easy to see what a lot of elite athletes are doing and it's really not that hard to research, you know, training philosophy. And I just like, I, I do a lot of research and I just kind of like copy what a lot of people do, you know, and borrow workouts from people and I, I know the recipe and the formula. Maybe I don't have a lot of the structure that maybe like the day to day structure that maybe having a coach would give me. But I don't know, I, I also think it's, I'm pretty good at listening to my body and knowing what I need to do and you know, someone could lay out a plan for you, but you still need to be able to show up every day and execute that plan. And I think I can create a decent plan for myself and just do it on my own.
- [100:06]
Rich Roll
As we're coming to the end here, obviously you're this incredible avatar example of the Power of changing your life. You've made these dramatic changes in your life, and it's just this incredible 180 turnaround. What can you share about what you've learned about the capacity we all have to make changes in our lives?
- [100:31]
Max Joliff
I think everyone has the potential to do amazing things, and a lot of times it's just really hard to take that first step, to start on a path of pursuing a crazy dream that you might have or just dedicating everything in your life to one specific thing. I love people who are just obsessed and just truly dedicated to whatever it is. I mean, it could be running, it could be surfing or skating or artwork or any other thing, but I think everyone has the ability to do amazing things, but it's just sometimes a little bit difficult to find what that thing is for you and also to have the knowledge and the awareness to really lean into that thing when you do discover it, which is kind of just what I've found with this whole running journey. But, yeah, and aside from that, like, I don't know, I just feel insanely grateful to be able to live this life and share my story and inspire people. Like, that's the most satisfying thing that I get from, you know, putting out content and running races and telling stories is when I hear people say that, like, oh, this inspired me to lose weight or this inspired me to get into running. And I love running, and it's a part of my life now. Like, that's where I get. Get maybe some of the most satisfaction in my life and something that I'm kind of, like, most grateful for, that I've kind of discovered on this weird, crazy journey.
- [102:21]
Rich Roll
And what is the message that you want to say to the kid, Max, who is sitting in a jail cell in 2012, knowing what you know now?
- [102:35]
Max Joliff
Man, just hold on tight. Stick with it. Put in the work. As long as you just do the right thing and continue on the right path, try to better yourself. Like, everything will work out and good things will come.
- [102:52]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I mean, when I reflect on your story, there's just no way that you can script this when you're that kid in jail. Back then, if you told that kid, like, hey, one day, you know, it's like, what are you even talking about? About, like, so the notion of even, like, we'll set a goal and work towards it. And this is how it's like.
- [103:11]
Max Joliff
It's.
- [103:11]
Rich Roll
It's not even that. It's, like, bigger and more mystical and magical than that. Like, by you just doing the next right thing. Like, Taking a contrary action and then the next right action after that and repeating that and repeating that and repeating that, your life, the trajectory of your life, you know, starts to alter. And then it leads you to these little opportunities that you say yes to and you make these little discoveries and then you wake up one day and you're like winning ultra. Like, you're living a life that like, you just. It wouldn't even like, compute to that person. So to me, what I, what I gather from that is like hope and possibility. Like, no matter how far down the path you have, you have gone, right? Like, there is always the opportunity for hope and possibility. If you can just do the next right thing in front of you to do, magical things can happen. And you're this incredible example of that. Like, it's the most unlikely story. And yet here you are sitting across from me and in my mind, like, you're just at the very beginning of this, you know, incredible journey that you're on.
- [104:18]
Max Joliff
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and just stay the path, Focus on today. All we have is today, you know, so, yeah, I'm just going to keep putting in the work and doing my thing and, and hopefully good things will come.
- [104:31]
Rich Roll
Well, I'm a fan, man, and keep making like, awesome, you know, content docs and all that. It really is cool.
- [104:38]
Max Joliff
Thank you.
- [104:38]
Rich Roll
I'm trying really appreciate it a lot and I think when you do that, everyone else sees it and then they have to up their game and it's just up leveling the quality and the caliber of, you know, what's available to the public to like, be inspired and, and learn about, you know, these, these subcultures and these ways of life. Thank you for that. Yeah, man. All right, well, come back and share more adventures from the trails, buddy.
- [105:04]
Max Joliff
Sweet. All right, thank you.
- [105:05]
Rich Roll
Peace.