The Weight of Gold: Peter Carlisle On The Olympian Mental Health Crisis, Michael Phelps, Simone Biles & The Hidden Cost of Greatness

Summary

The Rich Roll Podcast: "The Weight of Gold" Featuring Peter Carlisle

Released: July 28, 2025
Host: Rich Roll
Guest: Peter Carlisle, Managing Partner at Octagon and renowned sports agent representing elite athletes like Michael Phelps and Simone Biles.

---

Introduction

In this episode titled "The Weight of Gold," Rich Roll engages in a profound conversation with Peter Carlisle about the mental health crisis plaguing Olympic athletes. The discussion delves into the immense pressures of elite sports, the challenges athletes face during transitions back to civilian life, and the systemic issues within youth sports that contribute to these struggles.

---

Mental Health Challenges in Elite Athletes

Peter Carlisle opens the dialogue by addressing the "post-Olympic blues," highlighting how most athletes grapple with returning to civilian life after the Games. He emphasizes the abrupt shift from global recognition to relative anonymity, which can be jarring and difficult to process.

Peter Carlisle (02:17): "There's so much sacrifice, there's so much imbalance that when they come out of the Olympic Games, the overwhelming majority of athletes suffer what has now been called the post Olympic blues."

Rich Roll concurs, noting the historical shift in sports from community and fun to hyper-specialization and commercialization. He reflects on how young athletes are thrust into intense focus early on, often leading to identity crises when their athletic careers peak or end unexpectedly.

Rich Roll (18:42): "And that identity is sort of indelibly woven into performance... especially on a young mind that isn't fully formed."

---

Early Specialization and Its Consequences

The conversation shifts to the topic of early sports specialization. Carlisle points out that modern youth sports systems push children to specialize at incredibly young ages, sometimes as young as seven, which can stifle their overall development and lead to psychological issues later on.

Peter Carlisle (16:06): "Nowadays the entire system is set up to encourage specialization... kids get treated differently, isolated in their focus."

Rich Roll echoes these concerns, referencing David Epstein's book "Range," which argues that a diversity of experiences fosters greater success and longevity in athletes.

Rich Roll (26:19): "Our illusion that they were hyper focused from day one is nothing more than that, an illusion."

---

Systemic Failures and Governing Bodies

Carlisle critiques the role of national governing bodies (NGBs) in sports, arguing that they are often disconnected from the day-to-day realities of athletes. This disconnect prevents NGBs from effectively addressing mental health issues until they become public relations crises.

Peter Carlisle (33:32): "National governing bodies don't necessarily understand they're not living with the challenges that these athletes have."

Rich Roll questions the extent to which these organizations have moved beyond lip service to implement substantive mental health programs.

Rich Roll (30:45): "What is the gap between the lip service version of this with the governing bodies and real substantive attention?"

Carlisle acknowledges some progress but maintains that much work remains to bridge this gap effectively.

---

Personal Experiences and Client Stories

Carlisle shares personal anecdotes, including his first meeting with Michael Phelps at the 2002 Paris Olympics. He discusses the challenges of managing top-tier athletes' mental health and the delicate balance between fostering competitiveness and ensuring psychological well-being.

Peter Carlisle (69:14): "I almost failed to sign Michael Phelps."

The conversation highlights how Carlisle's relationship with Phelps and other athletes has shaped his approach to advocacy and support within the sporting community.

---

Strategies for Enhancing Mental Resilience

Both hosts explore strategies to build mental resilience among athletes. Carlisle emphasizes the importance of shifting focus from results to the process, encouraging athletes to find intrinsic value in their efforts rather than external validations.

Rich Roll (90:10): "That's mastery. I mean, that's mental mastery of your own mind."

They discuss the concept of viewing failures as growth opportunities, a mindset that can alleviate the immense pressure athletes face to perform flawlessly.

Peter Carlisle (97:44): "Win or learn. And I just thought that was like, yeah, right. Which is more valuable."

---

The Role of Parents and Coaches

Addressing parents and coaches, Carlisle advocates for a proactive approach in supporting young athletes. He suggests instilling an appreciation for the process over results from an early age and fostering environments where children can engage in multiple sports to develop a well-rounded identity.

Peter Carlisle (48:35): "If you were to start when they're younger to give them an appreciation for process over results, I don't think it would undermine the advancement within sport."

Rich Roll highlights the challenges parents face in navigating the overly competitive and commercialized youth sports landscape, reiterating the need for systemic changes.

---

Future of Sports and Mental Health

Looking ahead, the hosts discuss the impending LA28 Olympics and the opportunities it presents for athletes to further advocate for mental health awareness. Carlisle underscores the importance of strategic planning to maintain athletes' platforms beyond the Olympic spotlight, ensuring sustained support and recognition.

Peter Carlisle (82:43): "It's a huge opportunity because of the platform that it's in the US... building a platform for exposure that the athletes can have more control over."

---

Conclusion

"The Weight of Gold" serves as a compelling exploration of the hidden psychological costs of athletic greatness. Through insightful dialogue, Rich Roll and Peter Carlisle shed light on the urgent need for systemic reforms in how athletes are nurtured, supported, and transitioned out of competitive sports. The episode not only emphasizes the critical intersection of mental health and athletic performance but also calls for a cultural shift towards holistic athlete development.

---

Notable Quotes

• Peter Carlisle (02:17): "There's so much sacrifice, there's so much imbalance that when they come out of the Olympic Games, the overwhelming majority of athletes suffer what has now been called the post Olympic blues."

• Rich Roll (26:19): "Our illusion that they were hyper focused from day one is nothing more than that, an illusion."

• Peter Carlisle (48:35): "If you were to start when they're younger to give them an appreciation for process over results, I don't think it would undermine the advancement within sport."

• Rich Roll (90:10): "That's mastery. I mean, that's mental mastery of your own mind."

• Peter Carlisle (82:43): "It's a huge opportunity because of the platform that it's in the US... building a platform for exposure that the athletes can have more control over."

---

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the deeper psychological dimensions of elite sports and the ongoing efforts to create a more supportive environment for athletes both during and after their competitive careers.

Transcript

[Rich Roll]

Hey, everybody. Very quick ask. We are running an audience survey, and I'd love for you to take a moment to check it [e-mail] survey. Why are we doing this? Well, first and foremost, we really want to know you better. And the more we know who you are and what interests you most, the better that we can align the show with what matters most to you, the kinds of guests, conversations, and themes that you find most meaningful. So second, as you know, the show would not be possible without the amazing brand partnerships that support it, which, of course means ad breaks. But I really want to make the experience the best it can be, Better, more relevant, and frankly, less intrusive. And to do that, to do it well, we need to understand you a little bit better. So it's super simple, just two minutes, tops. But it's a small, direct way you can help us keep evolving and improving the podcast. So thanks in advance. And Again, please visit richroll.com survey to fill out our audience survey. All right, let's do the show.

[Peter Carlisle]

The Olympic experience is so difficult for athletes to process and to get there. There's so much sacrifice, there's so much imbalance that when they come out of the Olympic Games, the overwhelming majority of athletes suffer what has now been called, like, well, the post Olympic blues, or whatever it may be. But there's a very, very difficult transition coming from the Olympics back to civilian life or back to whatever that life is. It may be going back into college, you're still competing. It doesn't really matter because you go from relative anonymity to this global stage where really the whole world is kind of celebrating what you do. And it's very hard, I think, and abrupt. It's just difficult, I think, to process that, to make sense of that. I'm not sure it does make sense, and I think that athletes really suffer for that.

[Rich Roll]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. You know, I've been doing this thing for a long time. I wouldn't say I was part of the first wave, more like the second wave, but I've been at it long enough to be considered a bit of an OG in the space. And the space, this space has changed a lot since the early days. I can remember when it wasn't a business, when barely anyone was listening to these things. And if you told people at that time that you had a podcast, they would probably consider you a bit of a weirdo, like some kind of ham radio operator or something. So, yeah, things are different now, and there's a lot of great things about it. On that plus side, I would say that I could have never predicted that podcasting would become such a popular medium. I loved it way back in the day, but I can't tell you that I was convinced it could ever become as mainstream as it has. And that's amazing. And I'm so grateful to be in this thing. And it really is a privilege to wake up every day and get to do something you truly love. That, on top of which is meaningful for other people and has definitely given me more than I could have ever dreamed of. There are a few downsides, however. It's definitely crowded out there. It's much harder to stand out than it used to be, and pretty much impossible to release an episode that not that long ago would have been something of an event. And this is in part because great guests tend to do the rounds, appearing on many of the shows similar to mine and often around the same time, which leads over time to things sort of blending together. Everything's starting to look the same. All of the shows start to take on a certain similar tenor. And if you're not careful, this then leads to a situation in which what you do starts to appear indistinguishable from what so many others out there are doing, because it's all becoming so institutionalized. And then there's video, which is now basically mandatory if you want to have a successful podcast. And personally, I love the visual aspect of it. I wish I had gotten into video earlier than we had. It was just a budgetary thing, because I think it really does a great job of connecting the audience a little bit more deeply with the host and the guest by putting faces and visual personalities to the names. But what I don't love about this is the incentives that drive video, because I think they influence substantive decisions in not a great way. They have an impact on guest selection around the questions to ask. All of which are seeming, from my perspective, kind of looking out over the ecosystem of what other people are doing, seem to increasingly be a function of trying to fit the algorithm to farm attention or create virality. All of which in turn creates this tension between doing the show that I want to do versus what everyone who knows more about this stuff than me tells me, quote, unquote works, or is quote unquote, best practices. All of which, in my opinion, generally comes at a cost. And that cost is integrity, or being able to sleep at night, or really just staying in contact with remembering why I'm doing this thing in the first place and staying true to the real purpose of it. All which is to create and share something that isn't just some short lived dopamine hit, but instead is something that is substantive, that's truly meaningful and impactful and authentic and most of all, real. So look, don't get me wrong, I love my job. I still love it. I have no intention of slowing down, but I do want to make sure that I hold on to what excited me about it when I first began. Which is why, first, that at the risk of losing you for this protracted meandering, I'm returning to doing these looser longer intros for the audio version of the show. Because despite the growth of the RRP on video, this has always been an audio first podcast and that is how the vast majority of you continue to consume it. And also because it gives me the opportunity in between these roll ons to share a few thoughts on what's going on with me and what happens to be on the top of my mind in the moment. Second of all, all of this motivates me to be more intentional about the guests that I invite on the show to invest more time finding rare gems that are off the well trodden podcast tour path. More people that you may not have ever heard of that happen to have an amazing story or a message to share. Which is very much like today's guest, Peter Carlile, who is one of the world's preeminent sports agents in the Olympic and action sports space, with a client list that includes Michael Phelps, who he has represented for, I don't know, something like 25 years. Also Simone Biles and many other of the world's most elite top performers. And it's all coming up quick. But first, movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion even. Movement is a language. It's a way of connecting body, mind and environment. Movement as a way of being. A way of being that brings me close to myself, closer to other people, and to what matters most in life. And and for me, what we wear in that pursuit plays a crucial role. And that's what I appreciate about on they don't just make gear, they engineer apparel that supports and elevates the practice of movement itself. From running shorts with built in support to technical tees that cool you down right where it matters. Every detail is widely intentional. Seam placement, reflectivity, breathability, minimalism that works together so the gear disappears and nothing gets in the way. This is apparel born from precision and tested by elite athletes, but made for anyone committed to the path I've been with on since 2023 and I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not flash. Head to on.com rich roll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way I've been drinking AG1 for 10 years now, a decade which is so wild. And I bring it up because it affirms a rule that is the secret to every success I have enjoyed. And that rule is the little things are the big things. And by that I mean the tiny little positive actions that you take consistently daily are the very thing that move the needle the most when it comes to turning who you are today into that better version of tomorrow. And one of those small daily habits just happens to be AG1. A very easy and delicious way to simply sidestep any nutritional gaps that helps personally, my energy stay high and my Focus Key. AG1 is one supplement that just works and therefore a foundational part of how I start my day every day. One scoop, some water. That's it. Simple. I don't even think about it and I know I'm covering my bases in a way that supports my immune health and keeps my gut healthy. And now AG1 has leveled up even more with their AG1 Next Gen. This upgraded formula has been clinically shown to increase healthy gut bacteria by 10x, all for the same price of less than $3 a day. Now, clinically backed with an advanced formula, this is the perfect time to try AG1 if you haven't yet. I've been drinking AG1 for years now as I mentioned and I'm just so happy to be partnering with them. So subscribe today to try the next gen of AG1 for less than $3 a day. If you use my link, you'll also get a free ag1morning person hat exciting, a welcome kit and more goodies included. Check out drinkag1.com richroll to get started yourself. That's drinkag1.com richroll all right, I met Peter for the first time at the Paris Olympics last summer. We had a great lunch and I knew then that I wanted to have him on the show. Not just to learn about what he does and what he's learned about high performance from this incredible career. Working intimately with the best of the best, but mostly for this very clear passion that he has and this call to advocacy around the mental health issues that are faced by athletes. Not just world class level athletes, but all the way down to what is going on in youth sports in your backyard, in our neighborhoods. So this is what we get into. It was an honor to spend time with him and share a conversation that I think is pretty great, which was made possible by our friends at WOOP who opened up their studio to us at their headquarters so this could go down in the midst of my recent visit to Boston. So thank you to everyone at woop. And final note, if you dig this one, and I think you will, please make a point of checking out the HBO documentary Weight of Gold. I've mentioned it before on the podcast. It's a documentary that Peter and Michael Phelps produced together, which is very much, much about the topics we get into today. The mental health issues faced by Olympic athletes. A link to which you will find on the episode [e-mail] as well as various youth sports resources that Peter has provided us with to support all of you parents out there who have kids, who are engaged in youth sports, who are in high school sports, even college sports and beyond. So that's it. Crazy. Long intro complete. Did that work for you? Do you want me to continue with these longer audio intros? Do you want to go back to the short ones? Anyway, let's do it. This is me and Octagon managing partner and sports agent extraordinaire, Peter Carlisle. Cool, Peter, thanks for doing this. It's exciting to have this opportunity to talk to you. I really enjoyed meeting you in Paris. That was almost a year ago. Exactly. It took a year to get you in front of me. And I just wanted to shout out to everybody at WHOOP for creating a home for this podcast in Boston. WHOOP has opened up their podcast studio to allow this conversation to happen. And you drove down from your home in Maine to do it. So thanks for doing that.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, no, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

[Rich Roll]

I wanted to start with something that you said that I think kind of opens up the door to a conversation around mental health that I want to have with you. And what you said was, competitive success is enhanced by diversity of experience, enhanced by prioritizing mental wellness. So I just wanted to give you the opportunity to explain what that means and expound upon it.

[Peter Carlisle]

Well, I think that I said that is kind of interesting to me because it's. I'd say you could, you know, probably have it either way in the sense that I think many people in a narrow sense would say competitive success is enhanced by specialization, by a narrow focus, and not by diversity of experience. And I think that's part of the problem in sports today. But. But I think that in terms of success, generally it's the diversity of experience that, that matters the most. And I think when you get to the highest level of sports, that's when the perspective where they're saying, hey, I realize that the predominant viewpoint is specialized. Get very good at this one thing and that will take you the furthest. But they then will say once they're there. Actually it was all of these other experiences and this balance that enabled me to achieve that success. And I think that's the tricky situation. Which do you choose, which path?

[Rich Roll]

It is a counterintuitive thing. And I think that sports, we're of a similar age. We've borne witness to many changes in sports from when we were kids where it was about fun and community and now it's about hyper specialization and bringing in experts. And if you're a young kid who's showing promise, there's gonna be kind of a bum rushing effect that takes place there. And what does that do to a young person's mind when sudden that kind of enters the picture and puts them on a trajectory such that if they are lucky enough to reach that elite level, that's when they suddenly come onto your radar. By the time you're getting involved in athletes lives, they're at the kind of later stages of all of that. And I would have to imagine or presume that this is what has given birth to your concerns and your passion around the mental well being of, of the athletes that you work with and what that means or what needs to be done with respect sort of systemically about sports writ large.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I think that if you think about it, it happens at such a young age and it may not have when we were coming up, but nowadays the entire system is set up to encourage specialization. I mean you have like 8 year olds committing to colleges.

[Rich Roll]

Is that true?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. No, it's true. If you look at social media, I don't know how it works because where is the enforceability of that? But they'll commit to college at ages before they've gone through puberty to play football, say at Oregon.

[Rich Roll]

That's wild. I had no idea it was that deep.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, it can be that deep. And moreover, you've got social media, you've got the fact that if you show promise at a young age, and of course with sports being so much more organized now at the younger ages that you've got social media, you've got all of these influences and pressures and parents of course. How does it feel as a parent if your child has been identified as someone with that unique potential to Play in college, to go beyond that, whatever, even at a young age. So if your kid is starting to play sports at the age of, what, seven, Think of the impact on the child, because all of the peers begin to think, well, this kid is special. The parents, the other parents, the coaches treat them differently. They go to school, they're treated differently. And you can so easily see how tempting it is to just narrow the focus. Like, this is the answer. This is what makes me special. And so long before I ever meet these athletes, their identity is, you know, well established. And I'd say it's, it's so narrowly based that it's, you know, in my view, it becomes problematic outside of the sport.

[Rich Roll]

And that identity is sort of indelibly woven into performance. Like, as an athlete, like there is no identity outside of that which can't help but be deranging, especially on a young mind that isn't fully formed and deranging on the parents. Like what happens when you're that young and the world's starts to kind of cater to you or bow to you and cohere to whatever it is that you want and need, and then they reach the peak and invariably things don't always go as planned. Right. And what happens when that happens, or what happens when they get injured and they can't do that anymore or they've done their Olympic thing and then it's over and they have to become a civilian?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, it's an existential threat, all of that. And if you think about all of the, the athletes that are fortunate enough to qualify for the Olympics, you know, they, they dream of gold and how many win gold? So what is that experience? You know, is it that, that's a disappointment, that's a letdown. Do they stay in it longer because they're that close to the answer to all of their problems or what? And for the people that win gold, I would argue that it's just as much of a problem, if not more, because you've eliminated the one potential answer.

[Rich Roll]

Right. And when that, that hole inside of you still isn't filled by that, what is that, Auger? You know, in terms of, like, what life is about. But even in the best case scenario, they win Olympic gold, what does their life look like once they can't compete anymore? There's only one Michael Phelps or Simone Biles. And having attended the Olymp this past summer, you know, how many names do you remember that are going to be able to create something long term and sustainable on the heels of their performance at that Olympics. There aren't very many.

[Peter Carlisle]

No. And what is that? Fulfillment. I mean, the fulfillment itself. It's like peer to peer comparison. It's results oriented, it's times, it's marks, it's whatever historical measurements that they are driven by. And when you take yourself out of that system, what are you left with?

[Rich Roll]

And if you lack that diversity of experience and you're so self identified with your identity as an athlete and performance, you don't have anything to fall back on to become a fully rounded human being.

[Peter Carlisle]

Right. You've got to get to know yourself for the first time almost.

[Rich Roll]

I'm sure you've seen many varieties of that existential crisis bloom over the many years that you've been doing what you've been doing.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I mean, I think from the begin, I would say, I don't know. I mean, the more than 90%, all of them, I can't think of too many exceptions of the athletes that I've worked with over the years. They don't all win gold medals, but it doesn't matter. Just the Olympic experience, I think is so difficult for athletes to process and to get there. There's so much sacrifice, there's so much imbalance that it's when they come out of the Olympic Games. So I'm not talking about retirement, I'm talking about whether you could compete in three different Olympics. But in my experience, the overwhelming majority of athletes suffer what has now been called the post Olympic blues or whatever it may be. But there's a very, very difficult transition coming from the Olympics back to civilian life or back to whatever that life is. It may be going back into college, you're still competing, it doesn't really matter because you go from relative anonymity to this global stage where really the whole world is kind of celebrating what you do. And then it's football season, we're done. Now you drift off into. And it's very hard, I think, and abrupt. It's just difficult, I think, to process that, to make sense of that. I'm not sure it does make sense. And I think that athletes really suffer for that. I noticed that throughout and saw so many athletes struggling with it. You know, in thinking about it, you kind of trace it all the way back to when they were kids. And I think, you know, watching the clients that, that I've had as I raised my own kids, I think that was like for me informed a lot of the way I think about it and have thought about it and also the way I've. I've tried to you know, support my clients through that process because you can see, wow, these things that are happening to my kids, and they don't have that type of ability, but I can see how it's affecting them just through.

[Rich Roll]

Their own involvement in youth sports and just youth sports in high school sports and stuff like that.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, not even high school. I mean, I think I struggled with it. My oldest son, he was 7 years old, and if he was going to play ice hockey, that was all he was going to play, at least for, like, a significant part of the year. And I just thought that was insane.

[Rich Roll]

Honestly, it's almost like the 70s, Soviet era. Kind of like we're choosing who you're going to be at a very young age and you're going to get. It's a farm system from the moment you enter the picture of youth sports.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. And I would resist that for them in the sense that I would say, well, no, that's fine. You play ice hockey, but you love soccer, so you're gonna play soccer and you love baseball, let's say. So I would have to sort of play defense just to provide enough space for them to play multiple sports in addition to whatever you're doing around the neighborhood. I mean, I grew up playing. I love all sports. I mean, and that, to me, is a healthy way to do it. But. But to play three sports at the age of, like, 7 to 10 required me to intervene. And what was crazy is I couldn't effectively intervene.

[Rich Roll]

And was it the coaches or the leagues or where was the resistance coming from?

[Peter Carlisle]

All of it. And it may trickle down, but it becomes all of it. Right. In the sense that I would tell the hockey coach, the hockey administration, like, look, I understand that you're going to start, you know, the, you know, the season or practice in August, but my son plays soccer, too, and so he's going to play that and he'll join the team in November. And, you know, you'll. You'll find somewhere.

[Rich Roll]

You can't do that. You gotta. You can. You gotta pick, and you can. You can only do one or the other because we start, you know, they overlap or, you know, they're competing with each other.

[Peter Carlisle]

They're competing with each other. Or if they say, like, okay, we. We encourage that, they don't mean it. It's that, okay, so he never did do the early hockey. He would play soccer and then play hockey. But once you're back on the team, you're ostracized because parents are resentful that their kids may not be getting that Ice time because this kid came in late and the child is feeling somewhat isolated in that way. So it's just, it's very, very hard to allow for that diversity of experience within sports and it becomes just a slippery slope into specialization.

[Rich Roll]

We encourage that, but only in lip service. Right. Like there is an understanding, like, yeah, that would be better for the kid, but that's not actually what we're doing. And the irony, of course, is that what you're saying is true. Like a diversity of experiences, even in the best cases with the most elite athlete is going to be the better path. Like I'm sure you've read David Epstein's book Range, like this is like the bible on this. Like tracking all of these incredible high performers and realizing that, you know, our illusion that they were hyper focused from day one is nothing more than that, an illusion. And in fact, why they're so good and why they have such longevity in their career is because they're drawing on so many different influences over the course of their life that contribute, that create this sort of recipe for greatness.

[Peter Carlisle]

The challenge with that is that youth sports has become commercialized. And so if you're, if you've built a business that benefits from having, you know, these 7, 8, 9, 10 year olds in your system 10 months out of the year, you don't want to lose them, you know, for half of that time. So it is, it's lip service. It's also lip service in the terms of like, this isn't about results, it's not about getting a college scholarship. This is about character building, all of the things that we all know to be true. There is this temptation and of course now the system being so commercialized, it's very, very difficult for parents and kids to actually follow that recipe.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, the incentives are misaligned, especially now with nil rights and college. And that's just going to continue to expand the commercialization all the way down to the ro. And at the very beginning, what is the impact of that on young people?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. And I mean, and culturally, if you're in high school or even in middle school and you're seeing the nil stuff, you're seeing like the value of social media, the value of results, the value of peer to peer comparisons. And you aspire to that. I mean, what kids don't? I mean, you grow up watching SportsCenter, you want to be on SportsCenter. It's like slightly different now with social media, but with the nil stuff. And that is, you know, from a short term perspective, that, you know, sort of lends credence to specialization, doesn't it? I mean, because you can surpass your peers, make yourself more attractive to coaches, to your social media audience, to potential nil deals, whatever it may be, to exposure. And so you. You take that route.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, the conversation, the discourse around mental health and high performance is much more robust than in past years. Like, we are talking about this in no small part because of two of your clients, like Simone Biles and Michael Phelps, who have become really prominent advocates in the dialogue around this. But there's still a lot of work to be done. And when we had launch in Paris, you painted a very different picture than what I imagined with respect to governing bodies at the highest, at the higher echelons of sport with respect to how they're contending with this.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, the Olympics is big business, and the Olympic brand stands for a certain, you know, purity, I think. And I think, you know, when Michael was going through some of his issues, you know, that was the last thing that these governing bodies wanted to deal with. Right. I mean, you could have just said, look, this is not unique to the Olympics. This is life. This is sports. And so we need to consider that and think about how we can best support these athletes. But it also impacts the brand. Well, wait a minute. Is the Olympics causing this? Are these organizations exacerbating the problem? And if the thought immediately goes, well, how does that affect sponsorship? How does that affect how our audience views the Olympic brand? It becomes a more defensive situation. And like, well, let's contain that rather than, let's shed light on it, let's talk about it, let's address it. And I think that there was an effort, I think, at the outset to do that. And then ultimately, I think the only reason it was, you know, it's been handled a little bit differently now. And as you say, it's more a part of the conversation is because it was like, there's no stopping it. I mean, it's. You can't fight the tide. This is our reality. And so now we actually have to try to do something about it. But I think the motivation matters both in terms of when you start to address those problems and also how aggressively and effectively you address them.

[Rich Roll]

What is the gap between the lip service version of this with the governing bodies and real substantive attention and programming and support? Because when I think of whether it's USA Swimming or USA Gymnastics, these are sports that have a long history of not great behavior, coach abuse, things like that, many Occasions in which there were attempts to sweep these things under the rug. And it took a long time for this to percolate to the surface on a level that, you know, captured mainstream awareness in order for these governing bodies to do anything about it. Like, what's the state of the union now with governing bodies like that in terms of being proactive about mental health and preventing, you know, that kind of thing from transpiring?

[Peter Carlisle]

Well, I think the biggest challenge is, you know, there's a disconnect between athletes and these organizations. And that's not a condemnation of the organizations as much as it is just that's the reality. I mean, you know, people have the mistaken perception that, oh, you know, the gymnastics team, I mean, they're with USAG all of the time. I mean, that's their team, let's say, or USA Swimming. Like, yeah, they're part of the national team. But the reality is these athletes train and compete often with their own coaches in a totally different area. They're not really interacting with the national governing body as frequently as people think. And so that disconnect comes into play because the national governing bodies don't necessarily understand they're not living with the challenges that these athletes have. And they're somewhat desensitized to it, I think, until it smacks them in the face and then maybe they do something. And so that's a big part of the problem. And so what is the role of the NGBs then? If they're not developing these athletes, if they're not sort of managing them through their competitive careers, what are they doing? And the answer is they're charged with the responsibility of developing the sport in the abstract and to market the sport, which in many instances is to generate sponsorship opportunities for the governing body. And yes, they do fund some of those athletes to a degree, not nearly enough. And they run the events and they handle the broadcasts and all of that. That's so far away from the daily grind. That's so far away from the challenges that these individual athletes face on a day to day basis. And so the priorities are just totally different.

[Rich Roll]

Today's episode is brought to you by roka. You know, it's funny, we don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing without a real solution. Solution for athletes. I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run, constantly shoving my glasses back up My nose tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense? Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first. First, but not at the cost of fashion, I should say. Helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions, with everyday frames designed for movement. Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology. Patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions. And they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil. Super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next level. Razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference and wear without limits. Unlock 20% off your order with code [e-mail] that's R O-K-A.com this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. And today I want to help you better by talking about workplace stress, which is something that is real and also something that's getting worse. In fact, 61% of people globally are dealing with higher than normal stress levels, which, when you understand the very real connection between chronically elevated stress levels and chronic lifestyle disease, is concerning. While we can't walk away from our jobs this summer, we can change our relationship with what we do. Because while a vacation is great, that is not a long term solution. A long term solution requires we take steps towards reducing the negative emotions that we associate with our occupation. And those steps include learning how to navigate daily challenges, set boundaries, develop coping skills, all of which are very difficult. I say this from personal experience to do alone, which is where therapy comes in. I'm a huge advocate for therapy. I have been for years. And this is something that really isn't just for crisis moments. It's mental maintenance, learning tools to handle whatever the workday throws at you. And BetterHelp really has done a great job of making this accessible possible. Over 30,000 therapists or 5 million people worldwide. 4.9 out of 5 stars from 1.7 million reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp offers access to a diverse range of mental health professionals with various areas of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp, all of you can get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com richroll that's BetterHelp H-E-L-P.com richroll For the athlete, the kind of lived experience when they are struggling is a very quiet and private one. Right. Because they feel like they're the only person who's experiencing this. And to admit it or to talk to somebody about it would. Would compel them to. You know, it feels like a weakness. Right. Like, I have to be strong. Everybody's telling me, just focus, get it done. And when you're. When you're having a problem, and I'm not even talking about going public with it, but just to, like, confront it is a very scary prospect, perhaps, you know, scarier for that person than it would be for the average person who's struggling.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about that.

[Rich Roll]

It's like an existential threat to their career.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. And to acknowledge it is to become weaker in a way. That's the. That's a. I think. How many athletes would think about it. But, I mean, thinking back through some of Michael's experiences, I think that it was. He has spoken openly about how, you know, I wasn't about to acknowledge, you know, any problem because I can't be seen as weak. I'll be vulnerable to my competitors. And that's. I mean, that's just a very difficult situation. And I think one of the most impactful things he ever did was to just say, well, that may be the case, but I just can't handle that anymore and I'm just going to unload. And that's really what he did. When he first opened up in a Sports Illustrated interview, he didn't have a plan to do that. He still can't articulate exactly why he did that. It just happened. But as he did it, it was like this burden just evaporated. And in the end, he realized that didn't make me weaker, that may have made me stronger. Yeah. There was no calculation to that, which is what I find to be most courageous about it or most desperate about it. He was at that point where I'm just. There's no other route that I can take. But it opened that conversation up for a lot of other people because if he, at his level, is willing to talk about that, then I can do it.

[Rich Roll]

Almost a survival move. Right. Like, the only way that I can move forward is if I unburden myself from this. Otherwise it's too painful. Right. And to have that cathartic experience and realize not only are you okay in the aftermath of that, but actually you feel empowered. And it wasn't the threat that you imagined it to be. I would have to imagine that's where kind of the seed, you know, was sown to. To help him realize, like, oh, I have a voice in this that I think is important.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. I mean, I think speaking about it initially made him feel better. And then, interestingly, after he'd done that, people. I mean, he's recognizable everywhere he goes. I mean, it's something else. But everyone, if you think about it, you know, they come up like, oh, I watched you. So thank you for, you know, everything you've done for the country and, you know, the team and all of that. And it was all about his, you know, athletic accomplishments. But after he did that, people would come up to him and say, hey, thanks. I listened to what you said. And so it's the sharing of it alone, cathartic. But I think that as he. It was a different feeling when he realized, like, I'm actually helping people, which is a very different phenomenon, I think. And so I think that he continued to do more and more of that. But it was when he was in Rio in 2016, and he was the old man of the team at that point, and he talks about how he's on the relay team. He's just about to go out to the podium, or he's on the podium, and these kids that are much younger than him at this point, he's looking at them, he says, these kids, I know what they're going through right now. I can see it, and they're in for it, and that's not okay. Something has to be done. And so I think that's what sort of fueled his drive to address the problem however he could coming out of Rio. I mean, it was.

[Rich Roll]

We.

[Peter Carlisle]

When he's out of, you know, we'll go back and forth through each of the games by text and whatever. And then when he's done, then, you know, I'll get him out of the village and we'll be together. And he called me when he finished up. He just finished the, you know, his last event, and he'd done the, you know, the mandatory press stuff. And he called, and it was the first thing he said. He said, look, I mean, he described that experience. He said, like. Like that's what we're doing now. And with the same kind of conviction that he'd had when I first met him when he. Back in 2002, when he said, I want to change the sport of swimming, which may sound so vague and abstract, but it really wasn't about that is, here's A kid who like, best ever in the sport, he's awkward high school kid who the school doesn't even recognize as being this incredible athlete. I think developed this chip on his shoulder. Swimming should be respected more than it is. I mean, it should be on SportsCenter, which again, if you're a high school kid at that time, that would be your, you know, your measurement of whether it's relevant. And so that's what I think he meant by that. But that drove him in so many ways, not just for the sport, but like, I think to prove himself.

[Rich Roll]

I think that what's interesting about that is you have, so you have this kid with this incredible drive, right, chip on his shoulder, this insane ability to, you know, just put the blinders on and focus like, you know, to a superhuman level. Part of that is something to celebrate. There's another piece to that, like not so good for life, right? And when you careen into a mental health crisis, the fear of contending with that, of course, is, well, if I go into therapy or what, I'm going to lose that thing that made me so great and brought me here. Like, that's the. I think that's, you know, a big piece of it as well. He has this cathartic, you know, experience and realizes he has another path. And what a gift because now he take that focus and that determination and channel it in a direction that is service based. And that's like almost the only path that he could have found that was going to supplant or replace these peak experiences that no human being on earth. There's nothing he could do for the rest of his life that's ever going to match that, right? Unless he finds a way to figure out how to make his life about something more than himself. And making swimming like, you know, more than it is. That's great, but it doesn't really go all the way. But like the mental health thing, like that's something you can, he could sink his teeth into for the rest of his life and be able to find meaning and purpose. When so many athletes at the end of their career having had peak experiences like really struggle because nothing is really.

[Peter Carlisle]

Going to match that and it's not. A lot of those skills are not applicable to day to day life.

[Rich Roll]

And that's confusing because you're so good at one thing and it requires. There's a certain mindset that should be transferable to all these other areas of life. And I think that's another thing that disorients a lot of professional athletes. After retirement, like, why can't I plug into something else in the way that I could plug into this one thing?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, and your expectations are that you're going to be really good at that as well. And you don't have the diversity of experience to make those easy lateral move. So you've got to like reset your whole intention, I think, put the work in. I mean, I think that's very difficult. And you've, if you've, from the age of seven or whenever you showed yourself to be uniquely talented, you know, I think that's where it's a realistic perspective within the sport. But once you're out of the sport, what's so special about being able to swim even a second faster than someone else? Unless you're like being chased by like something, right?

[Rich Roll]

I mean, it has no use.

[Peter Carlisle]

It has no use. And that's the case with what separates the best athletes from great athletes from good athletes. It's like really sort of irrelevant skills to the rest of life. What's relevant, I think is everything that you. The hard work, the drive, the competitiveness, the values, all of that, the overcoming adversity, any number of things, that's what's applicable to the rest of life. And I think honestly that to me is the answer to youth sports. And I know it sounds totally oversimplified, but I believe that it's a matter of perspective. I think that if you understand early on the value of those things, it's not going to, to detract from the competitive drive to be the best swimmer, to be the best tennis player, whatever it may be. It's just the purpose for it will be a little bit different. You'll have a broader understanding of it. And so I think that in thinking about, there's no fighting the tide with specialization. I don't think it's realistic right now for there to be this epiphany in our society to shift that. And that's I think what my kids experience has informed for me. And it's like, okay, well if there's. Because if you don't specialize, you don't. Nowadays you don't even play high school sports. So if you value your athletic experience, right, if you value what you can get through sports and I've gotten a lot through sports so I feel it'd be a real loss if, if my kids didn't have the opportunity to participate in competitive sports. But it's just amazing that to participate in high school varsity sport you really do have to specialize. Even if you're good enough. You almost have to specialize because the high school coach also has a private club and is going to favor those kids that are within that club. So it's a very difficult ecosystem.

[Rich Roll]

So what is your advice to the parents that are listening or watching who have either young kids or kids in high school who are active and in sports, and they're seeing this happen? Like, you know, having, you know, having kind of navigated that yourself, like, what can you tell them about how to help their kids kind of avoid the negative aspects of this systemic situation?

[Peter Carlisle]

If you work backwards from, well, the Weight of Gold, which is the HBO documentary that we did, I think that because you're talking about athletes, the very, very best athletes in the world in a variety of sports. But if you work backwards from there, okay, that's what you're driving towards.

[Rich Roll]

So let's just explain for people who haven't seen that documentary, what it is.

[Peter Carlisle]

So Way to Gold is there are about a dozen of the very best Olympic athletes, U.S. athletes, that all sort of experience the same letdown, either between games or after retiring. Much of what we've been talking about. And they agreed to talk about it on camera and to sort of describe how all of that impacted them. And what was really interesting is that it was a daunting prospect for them to do that, because while Michael had opened up about it, a lot of these other athletes hadn't. And I think because Michael was doing it, I think they felt, okay, I can do this.

[Rich Roll]

You executive produced it with Michael. Right. And it's on hbo or HBO Max or whatever we're calling it these days. Right. Came out a couple years ago. It's been a while since I've seen it. Mandatory watching, but go ahead.

[Peter Carlisle]

We produced it ourselves primarily because. Because we feared that if we sought distribution, which we assumed we could get, that we'd have to forfeit control over the project. And that would, in my view, be too problematic for all of these athletes, that many of whom were talking about it for the first time. And so essentially, we just created a venue for these athletes to tell their story and talk about their experience and, you know, with the assurance that no one's going to see this if you're not comfortable with it. And I think that that allowed for pretty candid conversations. But what was interesting is, you know, you do these interviews, and each athlete had no idea what their fellow athlete had said in their interview. It's not like they were all doing this within the same room, but when they got together afterwards. Right. And they were able to see what the other athletes had said. It was such a common experience and they were blown away. They're like, I can't believe that anybody else felt this way. And so I think that's a really powerful thing. And I think as a parent, if you say, wow, these are literally all of the best athletes in the Olympic space and, and these are the struggles that they're going through, this is really difficult. I didn't realize that. And that doesn't mean you shouldn't aspire to be, you know, great within sport. It doesn't mean you shouldn't, you know, drive to realize your potential at all. But I do think that if as a parent, if you listen to these athletes and you hear what they're saying in terms of that imbalance and the idea that, well, the purpose of this is to succeed competitively relative to peers and that that's going to be the answer. I don't think it will ever be the answer. And it doesn't have to be the answer. Right. I mean, it's the process. It's becoming your best person and that process. And I think that's just a shift in perspective that I get it down the road may be difficult to shift, but I think if you were to start when they're younger to give them an appreciation for process over results, I don't think it would undermine the advancement within sport. But I do think it would help to insulate kids from some of the disappointment when the results, whether they achieve them or not, don't answer all of their questions.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, well, given the state of affairs with organized sports, from a parental point of view, you know, basically what I'm getting from this is like you, you have to be proactive, right? You have to insert yourself to care for your child and you know, act on in their, their own, you know, kind of long term best interest so that they're learning the lessons for life that everyone should from sport and not become this, you know, battery from which we're just supposed to extract revenue and, you know, accolades and fame. You're right, that's, that's sort of incentive structure here and you have to cut across the grain and circumvent that. I guess on some level, like that's a, it's like a, of course every parent, you know, should, should be doing these things for their kid. But like, you shouldn't have to, you know, go to war with the organizations or, you know, the powers that be or the coaches or whatever it is in order to do that. Like it should just naturally be that.

[Peter Carlisle]

So I. This has been how I think of it before my kids ever, like, started youth sports because, I mean, I was dealing with athletes that were struggling coming out of each Olympics and with that imbalance. And so I wanted to encourage my kids to play sports. I wanted to support that. But I also felt really strongly about, you know, multiple sports, you know, sort of keeping a healthy perspective, all of that. It made me sick to, you know, see signs up in the hockey rink, like, you know, you know, D1, you can go D that type of thing to get kids into the program. And I mean, all of that frustrated me greatly. So, I mean, one. The only way I could deal with it, the only way I could, like, feel okay about my kids being in that system was if I coached, you'd have to have that level of, like. I don't know, like, involvement, I think. And even that was really difficult because you're coaching, but you have all of the other parents, you have the administration of the league, you have all of that. It's really, really difficult. I would preach to my kids about all of these things, and it's like, they would obviously follow Michael. They knew a lot of these different athletes. But I would. I wouldn't talk about the number of medals. I wouldn't talk about that. I would just say, let's talk about this other stuff. I mean, some of the challenges they're having and why. And despite all of that, and despite the fact that they played multiple sports, my kids, it really wasn't enough because they also wanted to play in high school or college. And to do that, they did have to specialize. And at a certain point, it was like, I have a son who's just finished up his sophomore year. He plays baseball in college, and he wanted to play college baseball. And so the only, you know, he played three sports and then, you know, obviously had to commit to try to play in college. And he. It's. That's just what he wanted. Wanted to do. And, you know, I would. We'd have conversations that's. That's. That's fantastic, if that's what you want to do. But understand that you're going to college to learn and that, you know, it's like, you're. What you're getting out of. You're not going to go pro. Okay? So I. Or the odds are against it. Like, I was unapologetic about that assessment. And for fact, if he. If he were to go pro, it would be because I said he's not. So I'M not doing him a great.

[Rich Roll]

Dissertation, which is, like, kind of even harder. It's like, here my dad knows all the great athletes, and then so he has, like. There's a level of credibility there that is sort of crushing.

[Peter Carlisle]

But he, you know, so you have to specialize. And, you know, despite all of that, like, I had that perspective, I had those tools. I mean, not everybody gets to see, like, you know, athletes that are at the very top, maybe ever, of their sport and some of the challenges and the imbalance and the things that people don't see that you might not want for your child. And there was no stopping my son from wanting to play. And so he's part of that system. And I could see how the impact that it would have if he wasn't recruited by a certain school, the impact it would have if he had a bad game or whatever it might be. And. And so I'm watching on sort of the front end, like, whoa. It's all by degree, of course, but it's having that. It's the same effect that I see among the Olympians. It's just happening. He's had more diversity of experience. He's getting an education and all of that. But still, it was. As a parent, it was like, what do you do? Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Despite all of your best efforts to buffer against that.

[Peter Carlisle]

That. Yeah. And I think, finally I accepted that specialization is. It's unavoidable right now, probably for a while, because if you want to play a sport, it's all so competitive now, and the system is what it is. It's necessary. And so at that point, I thought, like, well, what do you do then? Like, does that mean all of these kids are going to end up at this moment of existential threat, and is there nothing that can be done about it? So, as a parent, it was kind of out of desperation, but I thought, he's not going to listen to me. I think somehow he's got to come to this on his own. I wrote a book for him in a way that he wouldn't know it was written by me.

[Rich Roll]

From you? Yeah. In situations like this, they can't hear it from the parent. You know, they need to hear it from some sort of mentor figure that they respect. That isn't you.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. And the idea was simply, like, all I can do, best I can do, best I can think of to do is to try to shift his perspective from results to process. And I studied philosophy in college. It's what I like, you know, it's what I'm interested In it's what I read. And it was out of desperation, really, because I just wanted to do what I could to help him. But I thought, like, look, you've got Zen masters, right, that are the very best archers, let's say swordsmen, whatever. It's all about specialization, and yet it's nothing about archery. There's the answer in my mind, right? In the sense that they are able to develop this strength of mind, this balance, because they specialize or through specialization, and they know all the while that, that it's not the result, it's not becoming a master archer, it's about mastering your own mind. Doesn't mean you're not gonna care about the results. If you get shelled as a pitcher, it's gonna suck. But at the same time, if you recognize that it's the process and you go about it with that different perspective, that's a huge change. So a minor shift in perspective could be a huge change in terms of your resilience, in terms of what you think you're taking out of this sport each day, the progress you're making, that has nothing to do with results, that has nothing to do with a good or bad call. So much of that. If you're staking your identity on a result that could be determined by a bad call, that's a pretty tough situation.

[Rich Roll]

That you're a fragile human, then you're not a fully formed human. The Zen archer example is a way of saying how do anything is how you do everything. And the answers are always in just how present you can be with whatever it is you're doing. And when you are identifying yourself with destinations and results, you're future tripping on something that hasn't happened yet. And you're giving value, you know, you're placing value on that. You know, how you value yourself and how you think other people are going to value you, when in fact it's. It's mastering the capacity of your mind to be fully present in whatever you're doing. That is the solution to, you know, all the questions you're asking yourself, like it's a very profound thing, but also like, very practical. And anybody, I'm sure you would agree with, all the athletes that you've worked with who has been able to sustain success over a long period of time is solely because they are about, about the process and not the destination, right? You have to, on some level hold on to what it was you loved about that sport or whatever activity it was to begin with in order to be fully engaged with process. Over destination.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I think that's right. And it's interesting because I listened to an interview with one of the best wrestlers in the world, and he was recounting how he struggled at certain events, and then came to the realization that he was thinking too much about that result. And at a certain point, he just said, ah, hell with it. I'm just gonna wrestle. But that he sort of happened upon that realization after already becoming one of the best wrestlers in the world. That's the opportunity. I think it's like, can you help athletes develop that perspective or at least acquire an appreciation for that earlier on in the process? And in my view, I think that's one of the most valuable thing about sports. I mean, you say it's a difficult thing to remain present given all that's thrown at you in life, but I think sports, it's not life and death, but it feels like it, doesn't it? It feels like it so often when you're competing. And I think that's the beauty of sports. And so we laugh about, like, yeah, well, how useful is it to swim, like a second fast or a hundredth of a second fast, or, like, maybe not, but the pressure that you put yourself through and to succeed, even to advance, like, it doesn't matter if you win gold, doesn't matter what your time is, just to progress and advance. More and more of it becomes mental. And I think you develop this capacity to equalize. You develop the ability to sort of be in the moment, remain in the moment, and I think, deal with pressure. And that is, in my experience, the most valuable thing that you can take out of sports. And it's unique because maybe you could have done it back in the day by actually having to fight for your life, but that's not realistic now. But sports does an amazing job of creating this tension and this pressure. And if you want to advance through it, you simply have to become mentally strong. And I think that's, I think, creating more of an appreciation for that, not just the results. Yeah, I think that's really important.

[Rich Roll]

I want you to pause for a moment because I want to tell you about my friend rj. Now, you might know this guy as the founder and CEO of Rivian. He's certainly that, but he's really so much more. He's one of those rare people who actually walks the walk. I've watched him over many years, and I know him to be this incredibly deeply committed person committed to preserving wild spaces while also. Also inspiring people to explore responsibly. And that's basically Rivian in a nutshell. Their mission, keep the world adventurous forever, comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet, these are not separate things, they're the same thing. Here's what gets me. Every generation deserves wild places to roam, to climb higher, to run farther, to be changed by the journey. But obviously the that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there. So yeah, Rivian builds electric vehicles, but really they're building something bigger, momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature, but actually inspires us to protect it. It's like, why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves? And that's why I'm so proud to align forces in partnership with Rivian. This isn't just about transportation. It's about building a world worth exploring for our kids, for their kids and for generations to come. There's a difference between managing all those externalities and pressures from a place of like peace and equanimity versus compartmentalizing all the fear, you know what I mean? That's sort of like the amateur version is like, you know, I'm scared, I'm afraid. I don't think I'm good enough. I don't know how to handle all these people coming, all of that. Like, I'll just, I'll repress it, I'll push it away, I'll pretend it's not there. And that works for a while until it doesn't. Right. Mastery is the Zen archer example of like understanding that the only thing that you have control over is your behavior and how you respond to the world and, and developing the capacity to be malleable and, and, and be cool with whatever's coming at you. You with a deeper self confidence that you'll be able to manage it. I had John, John Florence on the podcast recently, World champion surfer. And he shared this really fascinating story. Like this is a kid who, from the minute he was like this grom on the beach, everybody telling him he's going to be the next Kelly Slater. And to some extent early on he was sort of living up to that, won back to back world championships, but then he was losing a lot and got injured and just had seven years where it was kind, he was kind of awash a little bit. And he ultimately won the world championships again this past year. And the way that he did it, well, there's a lot that went into it, but a big piece of it was that very thing like just being okay like, when you're out there in the waves, like, you have no control over what wave you're going to get and what everybody else is doing. Like, the variables are infinite. Right. How can he be okay with whatever's happening and. And kind of arrest the looping mind and just remember, like, I know how to surf. I don't have to think about this. What I have to do is stop thinking about it and just allow myself to be and tap into that deeper reservoir of confidence. And one of the tools that he used that I thought was super interesting was a visualization tool, but not the normal one, where an athlete is imagining every step of the race or the competition and what it's going to feel like when that. When their hand hits the wall, you know, 1/100th of a second, you know, before the other guy, but instead visualizing how he wanted to feel emotionally, like, when he was out in the set. Like. Like, I want to feel good, I want to feel happy. You know, I want to feel confident, I want to feel calm and, like, rehearsing that state of mind so that when he's there, he can, like, channel that or tap into that, like, drop into that state. And I think that's a really powerful twist on that normal practice of visualization that you typically hear about.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I think that's. That's strong. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

True or false? You almost passed on signing Michael Phelps?

[Peter Carlisle]

Well, well, I'd say it's. It's true that I almost. I almost failed to sign Michael Phelps.

[Rich Roll]

But the story I heard is that Bowman was trying to get your attention. And, I mean, this. This is early. Michael's super young, and you were, like, representing snowboarders at the time, right?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I mean, I had. I mean, Michael's. He had unique potential, even at that age. I mean, he was. You know, I was aware of him. But it's a big decision, as you know, to forego college within swimming and go pro. I mean, not that many swimmers have done that because it's a great system to go through to swim in college. And so, you know, when he made that decision, then it became like, a concerted effort to sign with an agent and do all of that. But when they reached out to me, I just happened to be, like, if I was maybe two weeks from going to Salt Lake City with a significant roster of athletes, I mean, it's a busy time. I mean, so I said, yeah, I'm very interested, but it's going to have to wait because I've got commitment to these athletes, and it's going to go for probably a few weeks after the Games, but after that I would love to meet. And understandably, when you start that process, I think Michael wanted to make a decision and get on with it. As I. The story that Bob and Michael told me since is that, like, yeah, they were really antsy to make a decision. And Bob saw me on the Today show talking about marketing snowboarders, which at the time was sort of an emerging sport. And he said, well, we gotta wait. Let's wait. Let's give him some time. And it really was. It was probably, oh, at least three weeks after the Games, if not a month, because, you know, the clients that I had in Salt Lake did really well. And so then you're. You're running around doing all sorts of things and. But eventually they. They did fortunately, you know, wait to commit, and we had a good meeting down in Baltimore and. And they decided to.

[Rich Roll]

The rest is history. I mean, how long have. Has this relationship been going on?

[Peter Carlisle]

On 2002?

[Rich Roll]

Wow. That long?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, yeah. Long, long time. He was 17.

[Rich Roll]

How do you describe your philosophy of the. Of. Of what you do? Like, I see you like your sports agent. You're very distinguished, successful one, but I think you're unique in many ways. So, like, how do you put words to what it is that you do and the. And the kind of meaning and philosophy behind it?

[Peter Carlisle]

It. Well, that's a big question. I don't know. I. I think that the way I got into it helped me in the sense that there was no path to follow. I had no mentor. You know, I mean, so. So when I started to work with these athletes in sport, like initially, you know, snowboarding in particular, you know, it was. It was about, how can I help. Help these athletes become recognizable to a bigger audience, become more relevant to that audience. And it really was, more than anything else, was like a communications exercise, right? It's pr. And then if you do that well, the rest sort of the commercial stuff will come if their results are there. But I think in terms of philosophy, it's. I would try to understand what each of them wanted to get out of it. I mean, the obvious stuff is like, well, I'd like to be able to continue to compete. And honestly, it's that it's not making money for the overwhelming majority of these athletes. It's about, can I stay in the sport? Can I earn enough money to not have to work a job so that I can realize my potential? And that sort of thing. And so that's the obvious stuff. But in terms of. Of, like, okay, well, what are we, you know, what is the story that you're telling? Who are the partners that might be aligned with that? I mean, what are we building together? And I think that's just a matter of, like, you know, trying to be proactive, understand, you know, what each athlete's about and then. And then not. Not waiting for the opportunities to come, but trying to get out in front of it. And I mean, I think that's the approach that we. We try to take.

[Rich Roll]

To me, it feels like it extends well beyond, like, what you think of a manager's role is, which is just to be a deal maker. I see you as somebody who is a creative partner who's always thinking long term. And it's a very interesting world, this world of Olympic sports, because for the vast majority of the athletes, they're under the radar and only emerge once every four years in this very heightened situation in which the stakes are very high. And you, as their representative, have to plan for that, strategize around that, and be ready to kind of pounce and execute on deals that might happen in the immediate aftermath of a performance before the window closes and the halo effect is over. And to do that, that by thinking about their best interest long term, like, who are the partners that are going to serve this person where there's mutual benefit and there's some path that's going to at least bridge them to the next Olympiad. Because memory is short and people forget, as we were talking about earlier, immediately what happened. And that's very different than representing an NBA athlete or an NFL athlete, where these people are in the public consciousness, you know, for most of the year, you know, kind of persistently, year after year.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, they have a platform that they don't have to create and maintain, whereas Olympic athletes don't. I mean, they have. Their platform is, for the most part, every four years. And so, you know, I think strategically from the beginning, it was, okay, we can do business around the Games, like that year, around the Games, and then, then you'll have to wait and maybe if they continue, you know, a year prior to the next Games, there'll be more activity. And that just seemed like a pretty lousy way to do it. So I think it was, you know, strategically, it's about how can you create and maintain a platform for exposure that the athletes, you know, can have more control over, over. And however small it may be. And I think that's where it's only sustainable if it's aligned with who they are. And what they actually want to do. But I think each media opportunity, each partner activation should be aligned, should be strategic. That's the key. Treat each of these things as a platform and try to integrate all of that them strategically. And if you do that.

[Rich Roll]

So it's all telling one story. Yeah.

[Peter Carlisle]

And they'll weave together. And if you've got three overlapping partners activating in a similar way or amplifying the same message, well, that's not dependent upon world championships necessarily. That's not dependent upon the games. And you start to. To create a bridge between the games. And I think that's the most valuable thing you can do for, for athletes, I think from, you know, from my standpoint, and that's gotten a lot easier, you know, more recently because of social media and just content. But, you know, certainly back in late 90s and early 2000s, it was tricky because you really, you know, you had had, you know, a couple of televised events and that's it.

[Rich Roll]

And so the social media aspect of it has changed the game in so many ways for, for better and for worse. Like in Paris, we saw the emergence of. Of stars that we wouldn't have expected, but for social media, by these athletes sort of taking responsibility for telling their own story and doing it in a. In a way that was so captivating that it almost didn't matter how well they performed. Like, the world fe love with them, like Alona Mar or the rugby player is probably the best example of that, which is exciting for the young athlete, where it isn't necessarily just about medals, but they're being given this platform to tell their own story. And if they do it well, like they can have a similar experience. At the same time, there's this burden, I think, that athletes now feel that they have to be a brand and they have to be filming everything and capturing everything. And it's not enough just to aspire to be the best in the world at something. They also have to run a production company around themselves and are constantly in this process of content creation, which maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but is certainly an added burden, if not a total distraction from them just doing the thing. And I would imagine there's a lot of athletes who are like, I don't want to do that. I just want to. Why can't I just. Just, you know, do the. Do the sport? Like, why is it now expected that I also have to do that?

[Peter Carlisle]

There's pressure to do that from a lot of different sources, but I mean, it's part of every deal that These athletes do now. I mean, they're, you know, social media activation. It becomes an entitlement to the company and an obligation for the athlete. And they. They value the partnership not entirely because of social media, but it's a significant factor. And so you could have that athlete that just said, look, I get it, but I'm not into it, and I am just going to be the best athlete I can be. And hopefully commercial interest is still there, and it probably would be, but it's a matter of degree, and there's a lot of temptation to maximize that value while you can, especially where that could be your funding to continue within the sport. And so, yeah, I think social media, it. It, in my view, only works if it's authentic, but it can't be authentic for all.

[Rich Roll]

It's not for everyone.

[Peter Carlisle]

Right.

[Rich Roll]

Are you starting to see deal flow around AI Like, Nil rights around AI, for example? Like, you know, we want to, you know, we want to scan Michael's body, you know, and then we can insert him into commercials in Japan and things like that. Like, is that happening yet?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, there are conversations around AI that are happening more now. That sort of thing. Haven't really seen in terms of performance. I mean, the closest we've gotten on that was this is years ago, before the whole AI thing, but it was holograms.

[Rich Roll]

I remember that.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, yeah, they wanted to scan him in with the thinking that if they scanned him in, he could be everywhere at once and he could be doing appearances all over the world.

[Rich Roll]

This is going to happen, though, I would imagine. Like, this is on the near horizon, I think.

[Peter Carlisle]

Oh, I think from a performance standpoint, you must see that, right? I mean, it's in terms of evaluating all of the data and.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I mean, sort of in my space, it's like you can create your own AI that, like, knows everything that you, you know, like every podcast episode, or you can create like, an encyclopedia out of that or like a research tool for that. And I've already, you know, I've been deep faked a couple times. I'm sure, like, your clients probably have as well, and you kind of. Of go to battle with that and play defense against that. But, you know, soon, and this is something Hollywood is, you know, going to be dealing with. It's like, oh, well, we can just recreate Cary Grant and, like, put him in a movie, and no one, it's going to look exactly like he did. Like, this is the world that we're tiptoeing into where, you know, Nil takes on A whole different, like, flavor of what it represents and, and what it would mean to do that, like, when somebody's still young and vital to say, okay, do that. It's one thing if you're Cary Grant, there's an estate, that person's dead. But, like, when they're still alive, to be having facsimiles of you, like, you know, doing commercials and things like that, like, it's gonna get very strange very soon, I think.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I think it's all gonna change very rapidly.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, it does feel like the Olympics are back, though. Paris, you know, was. Was really something special. I think that it was a definitive statement that the world still loves the Olympics. And now we're in this ramp up to LA28. And I know that you have to strategize and think about, you know, what that represents for your clients and be planning well in advance. So where is your head around LA28 and what this experience is going to be like?

[Peter Carlisle]

Well, it's just a. I mean, it's a huge opportunity because of the platform that it's in the us if you look at the investment into, you know, the LA Games and what it will mean, mean for the American audience, I mean, it's. It's just a huge opportunity for any athlete. So whatever potential they may have. And we're talking about, you know, in terms of building a brand or commercially, I mean, it's not going to be any different in terms of the competitive results, but in terms of building and generating commercial opportunities, it'll be that much easier, that much more productive for them. You know, the appetite for activation around athletes will be far greater than we've seen in a while. And so it's the same strategy. I mean, it's, what are you trying to accomplish? And okay, we have more options now, so let's think about how we're going to, you know, pursue them. So that, I mean, the biggest difference is that it's just, I think the scale of the opportunities and the demand will be that much greater. And we're seeing that. I mean, the Winter Games were less than a year away. And Winter Games are always, you know, less significant than the Summer Games from a commercial standpoint. But it's almost like the, the LA and, And, you know, Milan Cortina, they're, like, proceeding on parallel pass. We've got just as much business, you know, relating to the Summer Games as we do winter already. And that's pretty, that's pretty rare. Usually, you know, there's a shift and with summer, it would come immediately after the Winter Games because it is such a bigger opportunity. But no, I think now there's, there's a lot of preparation and again, opportunity for the athletes, for the sports. I mean, some of these sports that have been recently added to the Games or, or more emerging, I think, you know, every sport has a bigger opportunity and it's a unique opportunity that won't come again necessarily in some time. So, you know, they should be planning and, and really working hard between now and then.

[Rich Roll]

As somebody who has so many relationships with just incredibly high performing athletes, what are some of the shared common traits that these individuals have that normal everyday people don't have? Do you see themes that emerge from all the young athletes that you work with where you can kind of identify what makes them, them so special and different?

[Peter Carlisle]

I think by the time I come to know them, they've distinguished themselves from a, from a, you know, athletic standpoint. But I think what they have in common is competitiveness. And by that I, I mean, I can't take credit for it. It's Eddie Reese, who's a legendary Texas swimming coach. Yeah, yeah. And longtime, like U.S. olympic coach and all of that.

[Rich Roll]

But he, it, yeah.

[Peter Carlisle]

Beloved. And he had a great quote that I think answers your question better than I could, which is he had said at one point, of the all American swimmers, 80% love to win, 20% hate to lose. The Olympic team is comprised of the 20%. And if I think of not all of my clients, but the clients that have really been at the highest level of their sport, it's like, you take that 20% and who hates to lose most? You know, I think that's what separates, you know, these athletes at the very top because that would inform what they do every single day and how they're going to react in that moment when it matters most.

[Rich Roll]

This brings it all the way back to the mental health conversation because fundamentally, if your fuel is that you hate to lose, that's dysfunctional. You know, that's very different from like, I want to be the best version of myself. And if what it takes to be on the top of that podium is hating to lose, like, what is the origin of that hate? Like what, you know, what's underneath that, that, that drive. Right. And generally there's going to be something, you know, that is probably going to show up later in life and not a great way, you know, so it's.

[Peter Carlisle]

Like, no doubt the whole thing is.

[Rich Roll]

Like, you know, rigged for, you know, dysfunctional mental health. And that's what it's like, okay, well, if you solve for mental health, then you're going to basically take that 20% off the table.

[Peter Carlisle]

Well, yeah, it'd be really fascinating to take the 20% or even the top 10% of the 20% and go back and try to identify a common denominator there. But I think we talk about Michael and we talk about any of the athletes, but where Michael's spoken so much about it, I think he had a chip on his shoulder. Okay, but what's a chip on your shoulder? I mean, I think it's ego, which is, in my view, insecurity. And I think that that is what drives so much of the competitiveness that we all feel. I mean, like, I think about it, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's like, if you really honestly boil it down, it's insecurity, it's fear of failure, that somehow you can't comprehend. End losing. Because that is the existential threat.

[Rich Roll]

Right. So not to play, you know, armchair psychologist here, but, you know, in Michael's case, like, if you remove the absentee dad aspect of the whole thing, like, does it all cave in? Like, because, you know, there was this, you know, I mean, it's a childhood trauma. Right. Like, you don't have a dad. Right. And so what does that do to your young psyche? And at what point does that motivate you or drive you with this desire to feel worthy and be seen? Okay, he rejected me, so I need to distinguish myself as worthy of love. And the way I'm going to do that is to just be undeniable.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, but I think that certainly comes into play. But so too does, like, he had adhd and, you know, he was told by teachers that he'd never amount to anything. You know, there.

[Rich Roll]

There probably like, yeah, a thousand cuts along the way.

[Peter Carlisle]

Right, exactly. And it all, you know, and it's how he processed that uniquely. But I would imagine that you could find, you know, the. That combination of factors among these great athletes that create that need to win, however unhealthy it may be. And I think you could do the same in business. I think you could do the same in so many different areas of life. I mean, I know that the highest level of business, at least as I've been exposed to it, in terms of, like, okay, if we're dealing with companies or media or whatever, there's an imbalance that I think is common among them. And I think that ego and insecurity has to come into play. You may not know that story, but that's What I've come to believe, anyway.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, it's tension. You need to be balanced fundamentally as a human being if you're going to live a meaningful life. Life. Right. But if you want to achieve some insane level of greatness that demands you be out of balance, and in order to, you know, have the motivation to go out of balance to that degree, you know, you have to be. There has to be some kind of, like, mental tweak there.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. I guess the question is, can you compete as ferociously as you need to and still be okay if you don't win?

[Rich Roll]

Right.

[Peter Carlisle]

I like to believe that you can. I mean, if you couldn't, I mean, then where's the Zen Master Archer?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I think that challenges the Yogi Berra quote. Like, is it really the 20% who can't stand to lose, or is it the people who are so committed to excellence within themselves that anything short of that is somewhat intolerable? So it's not about beating other people or losing to another individual. It's the demands you place on yourself, right?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, but the demands shouldn't be results oriented. I mean, I think it's really fascinating because each sport offers, like, a different opportunity to challenge that mindset. My son's a pitcher, so I just end up thinking about that more. But you're setting yourself up for failure if you're going to feel different depending upon whether you win or lose, depending upon whether you get out of an inning. I mean, because there are conditions that you cannot control, the results do not.

[Rich Roll]

Reflect your value as a human being.

[Peter Carlisle]

Or even your value as a pitcher. Everything, you could do everything perfectly and it's just a bad call. Happens all the time. I mean, you watch baseball with anybody, you won't go through a single at bat without having a difference of opinion in terms of a call. You know, luck comes into play, chance. So, I mean, it may be unrealistic, but I think the right objective is challenge yourself to feel the very same way from the beginning of the game to the end, no matter what the result. And I think that's achievable. I think it requires a certain perspective and you have to go through this process. I mean, I think you have to earn, like really work, work to get to the point where you can maintain that perspective and that calm. But if you think about it, if you're pitching the way you want to pitch, the results won't necessarily reflect that. So can you go through that game despite all of those uncontrollable conditions, bad results, whatever, and feel the same way you may feel badly because I did this wrong. Okay, that's different. That's not results. That's. That's sort of like the physical process whereby you're pitching, but in terms of results. Win, lose, to get a hit, what was a strike or a ball, those things. It's irrational to tie your, you know, frame of mind to those results.

[Rich Roll]

The way into that is to. I mean, failure is such a terrible word. Like, there should be a different word that frames it or gives it the connotation of. Of growth, opportunity. Like, when something goes wrong, that's when you learn about how to course correct and do it better the next time. And if we could just be curious about that rather than lambast ourselves and self identify with it, I think we'd all be better off. But something about our human wiring kind of gets in the way.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, it's what we drive to a certain result. But I mean, it's. Now, I've heard it in other places. The first time I ever heard it was Michael and I were in Singapore, and we went to an MMA fight there, and the athlete who was favored lost, but said, hey, win or learn. And I just thought that was like, yeah, right. And which is more valuable, right? I mean, you know, it's hard to think that way.

[Rich Roll]

And Michael's like, yeah, no thanks.

[Peter Carlisle]

That's a rhetorical question.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, like, tell him, like, you know, it might have been better if he lost that race. You would have, like, no, no, no.

[Peter Carlisle]

Exactly.

[Rich Roll]

So that's the difference between theory and practice. And the greatest, you know, is like, okay, well, you're the best. So, you know, you figured something out. You know, everybody else didn't. And yet we're still saying, like, hey, maybe a little more balance, maybe a little bit more diversity. Maybe all these things that, you know, are just so foreign to somebody who is that focused and determined and. And it is that thing that took them to that place.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I mean, compartmentalization works to a point. I mean, Michael, he's a great swimmer, and he's, he's, He's. He worked so hard, and he's built for it. And he's, he's be the first one to tell you, like, he was very good at compartmentalizing and amazing under pressure. So in that moment when people may tighten up a bit, he didn't. And so you say, like, that's the recipe. That's what you want. I think it may be in a very narrow sense, but again, the question that I would pose is, can you achieve that With a different perspective.

[Rich Roll]

That's scary. That's very scary because it's basically threatening your whole worldview.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I think you can't. I think it's too much of a shift at that point. But the question is, well, what if you started that? What if you took a different approach at the youth level or along the way, a Zen master archer or Zen master in anything. You don't know how long that's going to take. It's a painful experience. Right. I mean, there's a process. And to me, the process is. The pressure is going to. You're thinking, thinking. You're thinking it's going to impact your performance. And it's not until you. You get past that that it all starts to flow. And I think that's. Why can't it work that way in sports?

[Rich Roll]

Well, that's. That's mastery. I mean, that's mental mastery of your own mind. All of that pressure, you think it's real. It's. It's a story you're telling yourself. Like, you can choose to have a different experience. It's your relationship with it. Right. And I think that ability to, you know, the archer has to be completely in the moment, present without any kind of interfering thought. It's only then that you can tap into that flow and unleash the best, you know, performance that you're capable of. But at the Olympic level, when that pressure is so intense, that story is just so loud.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah, again, it's. I think it's something you have to cultivate over a longer period of time, probably. But I think it's, you know, it's a. It is a difference in perspective in the sense that it would. You'd view the setbacks very differently. The. The failures. Right. You'd view them differently, and they would appear to you as progress in some way, as opposed to. As opposed to a setback back.

[Rich Roll]

Well, these low moments, you know, are our greatest teachers and ultimately in, you know, many cases become the. The growth accelerators. Like when you think about what Michael went through in that, you know, that. That, like, dark period of his life. And I'm interested in, like, how you helped to guide him through that. You know, I'm sure he looks back on that now as a gift because it's given him, you know, this new life and this new sense of purpose. So we're not very good at judging the merits of these situation when we're in them. And it's only in retrospect or how we develop a relationship. With them, and in the best case, you know, use them as, as fuel to grow in new and interesting ways that they become like, these, these. These gifts instead of, like, failures to be ashamed of or to feel guilty about.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

You know, there's not going to be a revolution where you're going to tear down the structures of youth sports, et cetera, but let's just say in some parallel universe, you got nominated to some federal government position of power, like presidential fitness guru or something like that, where you had the authority to make certain changes in youth sports, high school sports, et cetera. What kind of programs would you like to see implemented and developed and funded that could create, you know, a new generation of young athletes who are more kind of mentally fit around the ideas we've been talking about?

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, it's funny, I think if you look at like, the bylaws of some of these organizations or even at like, the. The local level, like the, you know, like Maine Principals association, which governs high schools, all of the sports in. In Maine, for example, and it's like a lot of the values are there in writing, like the right ones, the balance. And, you know, here's the purpose of high school sports, and it's written there, but it'. Not. It's not enforced in that way. It's not. Nothing that is done is, you know, reflects those values. And so I think it's a matter of, you know, staying true to, like, let's think about it. Why. Why are we spending so much time and so much money on sports? I'm talking from the youth level through high school. You know, towns, cities, municipalities, like, like the money that is invested in sport. And I'm not saying that that shouldn't happen. I'm just saying we should all be cognizant of the reason for it. What is the purpose. What is the purpose of sports in the lives of all of these kids? Because the sacrifices that families make, that parents make, the cost. I mean, if you total up what is spent from the time your kid gets into sports to graduate from high school, and that's the end of, I mean, the overwhelming majority of high school athletes, they're done then. And you take all of that money and then what's left for college? I mean, the average family struggles for that cost. And so it doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. But I think at the outset. But that should be a consideration in terms of, like, what are we getting out of this? What is the purpose of this? And then from an administrative standpoint, how can we support that? And, I mean, part of that is, I think you have to consider, okay, the privatization of youth sports and these clubs. How are they integrating with community programs? How are they integrating with school programs? Is access to sports like, you know, equal among kids? All of those things, I think are really important. But the biggest shift would come with, from the very beginning, to instill in kids an understanding of why you're playing sports and what you. What you'll likely get out of it and to somehow counter, you know, the, the idea that, you know, that whoever lost that game is, you know, suffering in some way, or whoever, you know, won three games in a row is a more valuable individual. I mean, you've got to, I think, counter that and have open conversations about it. And I think those conversations shouldn't just be about technique. It shouldn't just be about, you know, the sport itself, but rather, you know, a more, you know, abstract conversation to try to get kids just understanding that used to talking about it, it get parents, you know, familiar with those ideas. So you're really just revisiting, you know, what is the fundamental purpose for any of this?

[Rich Roll]

Easier said than done, for sure. Yeah. There's also a question of, like, okay, well, whose responsibility is that? Is it the coaches? It's the parents, is it the athletic departments? Is it the organizing bodies? And I think until there is some, some kind of infrastructure or, you know, kind of guiding principles around that, it just gets passed around like, that's not my job. That's the parents job, that's the coaches, you know, so nothing ever kind of gets done. But I think where I feel optimistic about it is just that this conversation is happening and young people are having it, and there's a cultural shift in our relationship with mental health from something that, you know, would be considered a weakness or something you should, you should feel bad about or hide from other people to very normalized. And I think that that is, you know, there's a lot of credit that's due to Michael and Simone and other people who are advancing that right now. And I think that that is the biggest impact on the next generation in terms of how they think about their own well being.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah, I agree. And it's. I mean, that the, the number of athletes that openly, you know, talk about their challenges and their struggles, I mean, it's changed so dramatically over just the, the past five years.

[Rich Roll]

And I think to see press conferences where they're like, you know, they just flat out, like, we'll just tell you, like, what's, you know, it's like that would have never happened.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Even like I don't know, five or ten years ago.

[Peter Carlisle]

Yeah. It's huge progress.

[Rich Roll]

You're a legend. I appreciate you taking the time to do this and I love everything that you're doing and I think you're a force for good in this world of sport and mental well being. So thanks for talking to me today.

[Peter Carlisle]

Thank you Rich. Been a real pleasure.

[Rich Roll]

Appreciate it. See you in LA in 28, if not sooner. Cheers. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources is related to everything discussed today, visit the episode [e-mail] where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any [e-mail] Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatta, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.