Working It Out With Mike Birbiglia: Comedy & Creativity, Podcasting & The Pope

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rich Roll Podcast – "Working It Out With Mike Birbiglia: Comedy & Creativity, Podcasting & The Pope"

Release Date: May 26, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Rich Roll Podcast, Rich Roll engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed comedian, storyteller, and actor Mike Birbiglia. Delving deep into the art of storytelling, personal growth, and the intersections of comedy and creativity, the episode offers listeners a masterclass in navigating life's complexities through humor and narrative.

---

1. The Essence of Storytelling

Rich Roll opens the discussion by highlighting Mike Birbiglia's exceptional storytelling prowess, emphasizing its foundational role in human connection and personal understanding.

Rich Roll [03:23]: "Story is the foundation of everything that Mike does... it's a primordial need that informs how we learn, how we make sense of the world..."

2. Mike Birbiglia’s Journey in Comedy and Storytelling

Mike shares his evolution from writing one-liner jokes in high school to becoming a master storyteller who intertwines personal experiences with humor.

Mike Birbiglia [03:42]: "Stories are one of the world's oldest art forms. It's the way we understand ourselves."

He recounts his first emotional moment on stage during his show "Sleepwalk with Me," where a deep personal story elicited genuine emotions, marking a pivotal shift from pure comedy to meaningful narrative.

Mike Birbiglia [53:13]: "The first time I got emotional on stage... I was just choked up talking about the doctor in the emergency room..."

3. Personal Narratives: Fatherhood and Healing

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Mike's relationship with his father, especially in the context of his father's stroke and Mike's own struggles with a sleepwalking disorder.

Mike Birbiglia [07:08]: "The story is the story. I'm living in the present... my dad is still in care and had an acute stroke."

Rich draws parallels between Mike’s journey and his own experiences with his parents, fostering a profound discussion on empathy, forgiveness, and the transformative power of storytelling.

Rich Roll [09:36]: "The real arc of the story... traveling from that place to a place of love and compassion and forgiveness."

4. Creativity and the Craft of Comedy

Mike delves into his creative process, discussing how he structures his stories to maintain audience engagement and the importance of causality in storytelling.

Mike Birbiglia [30:19]: "The best way to tell a story is you tell a little bit of plot and then how you feel about the plot and then a little more plot..."

He shares insights gained from mentoring relationships, particularly with Ira Glass, emphasizing the importance of iterative feedback and vulnerability in creating authentic comedy.

Mike Birbiglia [35:12]: "It's something that comedians... have been very resistant to, which is like, showing people how it's done..."

5. The "Good Life" Special and Emotional Authenticity

Mike discusses his latest Netflix special, "The Good Life," exploring how he manages to convey genuine emotion even after countless performances.

Mike Birbiglia [53:13]: "Every night I walk on stage and I think, whatever happens tonight is the show... all for all of us."

He explains the challenge of maintaining authenticity and emotional connection when performing personal stories repeatedly.

6. Insights and Advice for Aspiring Creatives

Throughout the episode, Mike offers invaluable advice to budding comedians and storytellers, emphasizing the importance of passion, community, and perseverance.

Mike Birbiglia [75:56]: "Do what you love instead of what you like... you're never going to get rich from it, probably. And it doesn't matter, because if you love doing it, it doesn't matter."

He underscores the significance of building a supportive creative community and continuously refining one's craft through feedback and collaboration.

7. The Pope Story: Humor in Sacred Spaces

One of the standout moments is Mike’s anecdote about being invited to speak with Pope Francis about comedy, blending reverence with humor.

Mike Birbiglia [64:56]: "Pope Francis had this thought, which was he wanted to invite comedians to the Vatican to speak about comedy... It's such a great example of power corrupting."

He reflects on the meaningful interactions and the unifying power of humor, even in the most unexpected settings.

8. Balancing Personal Struggles with Professional Life

Mike opens up about his long-term use of Klonopin to manage his sleepwalking disorder, offering a candid look into the challenges of balancing mental health with a demanding career.

Mike Birbiglia [70:36]: "I've been taking Klonopin basically every night... it is highly addictive."

This vulnerability adds depth to his storytelling, illustrating how personal hardships can fuel creative expression.

9. Concluding Reflections: The Power of Stories

As the conversation wraps up, both Rich and Mike reflect on the transformative power of stories in fostering empathy, understanding, and personal growth.

Rich Roll [85:36]: "It's the storytelling aspect of your comedy... needed connective tissue in our divided world."

Mike Birbiglia [85:39]: "Thanks a lot, Rich. That means a lot to me and I'm glad we did this."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rich Roll [03:23]: "Story is the foundation of everything that Mike does..."

• Mike Birbiglia [07:08]: "The story is the story. I'm living in the present..."

• Rich Roll [09:36]: "The real arc of the story... traveling from that place to a place of love and compassion and forgiveness."

• Mike Birbiglia [30:19]: "The best way to tell a story is you tell a little bit of plot and then how you feel about the plot..."

• Mike Birbiglia [35:12]: "It's something that comedians... have been very resistant to, which is like, showing people how it's done..."

• Mike Birbiglia [53:13]: "Every night I walk on stage and I think, whatever happens tonight is the show..."

• Mike Birbiglia [64:56]: "Pope Francis had this thought, which was he wanted to invite comedians to the Vatican to speak about comedy..."

• Mike Birbiglia [70:36]: "I've been taking Klonopin basically every night... it is highly addictive."

• Rich Roll [85:36]: "It's the storytelling aspect of your comedy... needed connective tissue in our divided world."

---

Key Takeaways

• Storytelling as Connection: Stories are fundamental to human connection, allowing individuals to empathize and understand diverse experiences.

• Vulnerability in Creativity: Embracing vulnerability can enhance authenticity in creative work, fostering deeper audience engagement.

• Personal Growth Through Narrative: Reflecting on personal challenges through storytelling can lead to healing and a better understanding of oneself and others.

• Mentorship and Feedback: Constructive feedback and mentorship are crucial in honing one's craft and pushing creative boundaries.

• Balancing Personal Struggles: Managing personal health issues, such as Mike’s sleepwalking disorder, while maintaining a demanding career requires resilience and support.

---

Conclusion

This episode serves as an inspiring exploration of how storytelling transcends entertainment, becoming a powerful tool for personal and communal growth. Mike Birbiglia's candid discussions and Rich Roll's thoughtful inquiries provide listeners with profound insights into the art of narrative, the complexities of personal relationships, and the relentless pursuit of creative authenticity.

Whether you're a fan of Mike's work or someone seeking inspiration in your personal or professional life, this episode offers valuable lessons on embracing vulnerability, fostering empathy, and the enduring power of a well-told story.

Transcript

[Rich Roll]

If there's one thing, one thing that I've learned over the years, it's that sleep is the bedrock of everything. Recovery performance, mental clarity, longevity, emotional regulation. All things that are amazingly enhanced by sleep in ways that nothing else can. It follows therefore that when it comes to enhancing sleep, we should all do everything we can. Which is why I'm such a super fan of eight Sleep, which is a game changing product that really has done more to improve my sleep quality than pretty much anything else I can think of. Eight Sleep's latest innovation is the Pod 5 Ultra, which is a smart mattress cover that turns your existing bed into a personalized recovery machine. You get dynamic temperature control from 55 all the way to 110 degrees Fahrenheit on each side of the bed. And now they've added a blanket that extends that comfort across your entire body in ways bespoke to your needs. And the more you use it, the better it gets. Automatically adjusting temperature throughout the night to optimize your sleep cyc and even reduce snoring up to 45% based upon feedback from its built in sleep sensors that track everything from sleep stages to heart rate variability, all without any wearables. It's next level and rigorously evidence based. In fact, clinical studies show the POD users gain up to an extra hour of sleep per night. Think about that. That is real recovery time. More deep sleep, better HRV, better everything. So head on over to eightsleep.com richroll and use the code richroll for $350 off your Pod 5 Ultra and you can try it risk free with their 30 day at home trial. Your body will thank you. Movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion even. Movement is a language. It's a way of connecting body, mind and environment. Movement as a way of being, a way of being that brings me close to myself, closer to other people, and to what matters most in life. And for me, what we wear in that pursuit plays a crucial role. And that's what I appreciate about on they don't just make gear, they engineer apparel that supports and elevates the practice of movement itself. From running shorts with built in support to technical tees that cool you down right where it matters. Every detail is widely intentional. Seam placement, reflectivity, breathability, minimalism that works together so the gear disappears and nothing gets in the way. This is apparel born from precision and tested by elite athletes, but made for anyone committed to the path. I've been with on since 2023 and I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not Flash. Head to on.comrichroll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. Mike Birbaglia is pretty hilarious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My wife and I hate going to parties, but we love driving away from parties.

[Rich Roll]

But what separates Mike from other very funny people is story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Stories are one of the world's oldest art forms. It's the way we understand ourselves. I remember the first time I got emotional on stage and I didn't know what to do. Every night I walk on stage. Whatever happens tonight is the show.

[Rich Roll]

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is the great Mike Birbiglia. Mike is a comedian, which if you've heard of him, then you already know that. I certainly have been a fan of his for a very long time. But what he really is is a mast storyteller. Story is the foundation of everything that Mike does, from performing live on stage to behind the mic on this American Life, which is where I first discovered him many years ago on his own podcast called Working it out and on screen in films like Sleepwalk With Me, which he wrote and directed based on his best selling book and his one man show about his crazy experiences with a sleep disorder. Story is something that I think about a lot because story is something that's innately human. It's hardwired into us. It's a primordial need and that informs how we learn, how we make sense of the world and serves as the primary way we connect ourselves to and feel connection with other people and the world. So in many ways, the way we experience reality is a story. So fundamental is storytelling, in my opinion, that the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, who we are, what we're capable of or not, and tell others about ourselves and other people, whether they're true or not, create and inform our reality. And only by changing those stories can we change our experience of reality. Mike is also an actor. He's appeared in movies like Trainwreck and the Fault in Our Stars and a bunch of TV shows like Girls Billions and Orange is the New Black. He also has a couple Netflix specials under his belt, including the Old man and the Pool, which I got to see live. Quite amazing. So today we're going to get into all of it and we're going to do what Mike does best, which is work it out. From comedy and creativity to parenting and podcasting and even some stories about the Pope. But more than anything, this is about storytelling. Why it's vital and how to do it well. The Good Life is his new Netflix special. It's out now, so check it out, because it's super good. But right now, check this out, which is Mike Birbiglia sharing stories about storytelling and vice versa. But mostly me doing what you do when someone is telling a really great story, which is sit back and listen. Dude, we worked it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We made it happen. We worked it out.

[Rich Roll]

After many years of back and forth, it finally happened. And today we're gonna work it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep, we're gonna work it out also.

[Rich Roll]

It's great to have you here. I've been a fan for a long time, and I thought when the old man in the pool came out, I was like, oh, this is like, the perfect set of circumstances for us to talk, like swimming, midlife, you know, health and all this sort. But actually, your new special is sort of hitting the bullseye of, like, stuff I'm going through right now with my parents. And I thought it was really beautiful, this expression that you're now sharing and the honesty and the vulnerability and how that impacts how you think about parenting. And it's just a highly relatable story. So, yeah, really well done. I had seen some of the pieces of it. Cause I saw you at Largo, and you were kind of. You were working out the show, I assume, at that time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

So I'd heard a couple of those stories before. But, like, to have it all come together as this woven together like fabric, where you go from A to Z, it's like you're really a master storyteller.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I appreciate it. I think for me, the experience of this one, what made it different from the other specials, is that the. That the story is the story. I'm living in the present. Like, my dad is still in care and had an acute stroke. And it's really struggling, and so the pain is still there. A lot of the things. It's like, things that I've dealt with in the past. Having a sleeping disorder, sleepwalking disorder. But I've dealt with it to some degree. I had bladder cancer when I was 20. It hasn't come back. I've been doing well on that front. This is like, oh, this is my life now, and this is hard. And it was interesting because I started out writing a show two years ago about what can I teach my daughter, who at the time was 8. And I was having this thing where I thought, when the kids are little, this is a joke in the special. But I go, you don't have to know that. Much, because it's a lot of layups. It's like, what's that? That's an egg. I'm a genius. And then at a certain point you're like, oh, I think my ceiling for intelligence might be like, age seven.

[Rich Roll]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean? And then you don't know the answers. And then the thing happened with my dad where he had a stroke, and I'm trying to explain to my daughter what a stroke is. I'm going, I'm not even sure. I can't really explain this. This is hard to explain. And that's what the show became ultimately about, which is, what can I teach my daughter? And then what have I learned from my dad? And to do that, I had to be, I think, more empathetic with my dad than I had been previously. So it was a good exercise in the sense that my dad has always felt distant to a degree, even though our family's close. But it forced me to just go, well, as a writer of a play, you want to have. You want to care about all the characters and do justice to all the characters, because otherwise it just feels cartoonish. And I was like, yeah, he was angry and he had a temper, but also he was a great doctor and he was very compassionate in these ways. And so it was an interesting challenge for me and, like, I think made me understand my father more.

[Rich Roll]

Well, the low hanging fruit from a comedy perspective is all the anger and resentment that you've stored over many years of, like, why didn't he do this and why was he like that? And here's why I'm this way. Yes, but the real arc of the story and the kind of spiritual aspect of it is traveling from that place to a place of, like, love and compassion and forgiveness and to your point, empathy, like, seeing him maybe for the first time as a holistic person who did the best that he could with what he had.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I mean, truly, like, when I was a kid, I really viewed my dad as like this, this mythological creature. In hindsight, and as I've in the last few years, I feel like I just understood him as a person.

[Rich Roll]

How old is he?

[Mike Birbiglia]

84. So he's born in 1940.

[Rich Roll]

So is my dad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Oh, really? I mean, my dad grew up in 1940 in Bushwick, Brooklyn, was, you know, it was really unlikely for him to have the life he had. Like, he got. I mean, I asked him about this. So much of this stuff is, like, in the condition he's in, he can't remember what's happened. In the last year. But he can remember things from the distant past. So I've asked him all these things that I had never asked him about his life. And yeah, one of the things was, I go, how did you end up going to Xavier High School in New York and Holy Cross College and med school and all this? And he goes, you know, it was like some kid at school was going to take the entrance exam for Xavier and this Jesuit school in Manhattan. And I go, I'll try that. And then he, like scored really well and got a scholarship and he ended up leading him on this path that I think he never imagined for his life at all.

[Rich Roll]

My favorite joke is when you say, you know, he was this great doctor, but then that wasn't enough. So he went to law school. That's how much he didn't want to be a dad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In his free time, he went to law school.

[Rich Roll]

It's crazy, but that is an amazing thing. But you're this kid who's vying for attention and never able to get it. I mean, there has to be a connection between that and you becoming this comedian.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, certainly. I think part of it is, and maybe this is the reason why I'm the comedian of the four children is like, I was youngest of four and I think I was like the oops baby of the family. And I think my dad was kind of done with parenting at that point.

[Rich Roll]

Whatever attention he had available to him to give to the kids had been long past spent.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, it's like he would come to soccer games and he would come to, you know, but it's not like I was good at soccer. You know what I mean? It's like, no come to my plays. But he would, yeah, he would show up to things, but he wasn't around a lot. And it was. And I do think that, like you're saying, like, the correlation between that and becoming a performer is not lost on me.

[Rich Roll]

Being the youngest. The youngest, you get free reign to kind of be who you want to be though. Also. Right. Like, so there's not the pressure that the eldest has to like, follow in the footsteps or the expectations. It's sort of like you go do whatever you want to do. Right. Like, so was that part of it too, where you felt like you could go into this, you know, off kilter world and profession without the intensity of your parents judging it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

100%? So much of my childhood, and it's so confusing the way we, me and others raise our children now. It's like it really was. There weren't a ton of rules. We were just in the forest. We would be at the park. We would. It's that cliche people say, come back by dark. You know what I mean by when it's dark.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And of course, parenting is not like that now for almost anyone, but. But yeah, so it did give me free rein. And then the other thing is, it's not lost on me that my mom was extraordinarily loving, and so that gave me a stability also to feel comfortable in trying things. And she's a good storyteller, and I think that I had always admired that and kind of copied that in a certain way. So I don't know. Yeah, but it's. It's definitely. It's all part of the alchemy that leads one to being. Doing something so odd as being a comedian.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. Have you ever had your dad on your podcast?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No. My dad, like, it's so hard to describe, like, how. How uninterested he is in show business.

[Rich Roll]

But I raised that because I had my dad on, and there was a reason for that. He. He was a lawyer, but then when he retired from his profession, he started writing these really dense historical biographies, you know, unlike historical figures. And he had written this book, and it's like, I'll have him on, but obviously, this is my opportunity to, like, you know, like, let's. Let's go into it, you know? But the formality of podcasting allowed us to talk about his life in a way that I don't know if I ever would have taken the opportunity to sit down with him across the breakfast table and engage with him in that way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have definitely tried to interview my parents over the years about different things, and they just don't really want to engage in it. I just have to go. Okay, sure.

[Rich Roll]

And, of course, we do the opposite as parents. Right. We let that pendulum swing way too far in the other direction. And you talk about that in the special as well. Like, we're going to try to do all the things that, you know, give our kids all the things that we feel like we were deprived of, but as a result of the stoic, you know, kind of unemotional, you know, landscape of, you know, intimacy being, you know, something impossible to get.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, no, and exactly. It's like, whatever. Whatever we're doing wrong, my wife and I parenting, we're gonna find out when she's an adult, and you can't even guess what it is.

[Rich Roll]

So Una's 10, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Okay, so I'm Way further down this path. And I can report back to you that, you know, most assuredly, you know, these. It'll be. There's gonna be a whole laundry list of, you know, things to, you know, grievances that, you know, why did you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do it this way?

[Rich Roll]

And, like, you know, all those choices that you make that you feel like are the right ones, like, it's wired such that it' always going to be the wrong choice from their perspective for some reason later in life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, absolutely. And I will say my parents have. While they haven't been extremely supportive of my comedy career, they don't come to a lot of my shows, etc. They also haven't complained a lot. I mean, apparently they complained to other members of my family. Like, they complain to my brother and sisters about stuff I'm talking about, but they don't. It's not to the point where they say, like, you can't talk about that. You know, I think, like, in some ways, if, like, the lineage of my comedy does go back to, like, another theme in the show, which is I went to the Vatican last year and met the Pope, which is so lucky before he passed. And. And that was. My strict upbringing, was Catholicism. And I do feel like, there was, at least in that 1980s Massachusetts Catholicism, a sense of, like, don't talk about things. And I feel like in a lot of ways, my comedy is like, talk about everything.

[Rich Roll]

Right. So that's what I'm always thinking about when I watch your stuff. Cause you're naming names and you're talking about the people that you're closest to in your life. And it's, like, deeply uncomfortable to me as a people pleaser. Like, how does he just do that? You know, there must be a whole domino effect to that. You talk about your wife and they're getting wind of whatever you're saying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, certainly. And I mean, fortunately, yeah, there's a little bit of a hack to it if you look at. If you deconstruct sort of who are the main players in my shows, which is to say that I talk about my brother Joe a lot, and he's a collaborator of mine. We've worked together for 20 years. And I talk about my wife a lot. She's a collaborator of mine, and we worked together for probably almost 20 years. So they have a lot of input on, you know, the depiction of. Yeah. The line and the depiction of themselves sometimes. You know, in the case of my special, a few, three specials ago, the new one, I included poetry from my wife about the birth of our child. And that was my depiction of her feelings about how it was because it's so sensitive for her. So I was like, oh, I'll read it verbatim and just say, this is a poem that Jen wrote. So there's that and then there's. I mean, mostly in my comedy, I try to make myself the butt of the joke. I try to find the humor of, you know, that. I was talking about this with Conan recently. It's like the comedy of like we're the ones in the mud with everybody, you know, and that there's something fun about that, of being part of the joke. Being part of what the joke is, as opposed to looking down at people who are in the mud.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, no, there's nothing condescending about it. You're in the middle of the whole thing and you're the one who created the disaster and, you know, has to find their way out of it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right, yeah. No, completely. And I will say, like, as I've gotten older, the most rewarding part of being a comedian has become that people feel connected to the personal experiences. Like the stuff that you're describing of that this is similar to what you're experiencing in your life. For me, that's the most rewarding part of being a comedian. More than anything, more than any part of it, which is so different from what got me into it. What got me into it was like, look at me. And I feel like as I've gotten older, it's like, no, no, look at everybody.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. The connection that you're creating, look at all of us and just telling jokes or making fun of yourself or pointing a finger at other people. That doesn't accomplish that. What accomplishes it is storytelling, like a story well told, where every member of the audience can see themselves and feel themselves somewhere in that narrative, even though the facts of their are very different from yours. The emotional experience of whatever you're traversing is something highly relatable. So I wanted to talk about storytelling. That is the defining feature of what you do. And I think you're a master at it. Why do you see this as so central to your work? What is it about storytelling and how do you think about it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I started out writing jokes when I was in high school. It was the first my brother Joe took me to see Steven Wright, who's like a great classic one liner comedian from Boston. We saw him at the Cape Cod Melody tent in Massachusetts and I was entirely transfixed. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe people think like this. This is kind of like the illusion of stand up comedy, which is like, that's what I think. He's saying what I think. And of course, because I've never experienced that before, I'm thinking, this is only me.

[Rich Roll]

You're the only.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I went home just like a notebook like this. I just started writing jokes and they're all like one liner jokes. So in college, I entered the Funniest Person on Campus contest and I won that. And I worked the door at the Washington D.C. improv and I studied all these comedians. And then probably when I was about 24, I was asked to do the Moth storytelling series. And it was the first time I told a story. And it was. I told this story that ended up being eventually in my special called My Girlfriend's Boyfriend about how when I was in high school, I had my first, like serious girlfriend. And she told me that I couldn't tell anyone that she was my girlfriend because she had another boyfriend in another town or whatever. And so I was like, okay. And then eventually she invites me to meet her parents and I was like, this is my moment. And I went over and I met her parents and this other guy is like hanging around the house and I'm slowly realizing like, that's the other boyfriend. And he seems nice and then he invites us to meet his parents. And I go, it's a very strange thing meeting your girlfriend's boyfriend's parents for the first time. And that was the first time I told that on stage. It was in Aspen, Colorado. And it was the first time where I was like, oh, this is deep. Like, what's happening in this room is pretty deep because I, you know, like the thing I just said to you, the version I just said to you, that's a joke. But then there's also moments of silence where it's like people are really feeling something in the room of, oh my God, I've had that, I've lived that.

[Rich Roll]

Or it's their worst fear or it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Their worst fear or they've lived something like it. And I was like, really hooked. I was like, oh, I should tell a story like this. And then I told for the Moth. I told my sleepwalking story where I jumped through a second story window. Sleepwalking. And then Ira Glass from this American Life heard about it and asked me to put it on this American Life.

[Rich Roll]

I think that was the first time that I heard you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And that in a lot of ways changed my whole career because Ira really Kind of taught me how to tell stories. And the more that I would tell stories, the more I was just interested in that format of, like, there's something about, you know, stories are, you know, one of the world's oldest art forms. It's the way we understand ourselves. You know, that's that. I mean, look, it's like people always say, filmmakers say this, playwrights say this, this. It's like, make the movie you want to see, you know, not the movie you think people want. Make the movie you want to see. It's like, for me, I, I, when I was a kid, I would watch. I'm trying to think of a movie that, like, really captures that. Like, it's, it's funny. Like the James L. Brooks movies for me, like, you know, or the Woody Allen movies. But, like, I'm thinking of, like, Broadcast News where it's like, it's so funny. The Albert Brooks character is so funny and sweating and he's in love with this woman and she's not in love with him. And it's funny. I'm saying that now. I'm like, that's my girlfriend's boyfriend. Yeah, it's literally my girlfriend's boyfriend.

[Rich Roll]

The context of the story is irrelevant. It's just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Rich Roll]

The idea that even though he's sweating on camera and all of that, like, we all have had some version of that experience in our own private lives.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. And so when I watch movies like that, or like more recently, Jesse Eisenberg's movie A Real Pain, I like, so deeply connected with that movie because I'm like, yeah, I've been in that relationship that he and Culkin are in, their characters are in. And it's like, yeah. The way that we see ourselves through stories is powerful. And it's like, when it works, it's amazing. When it doesn't work, it's brutal.

[Rich Roll]

If you've ever wondered what generations of nutritional wisdom looks like bottled, meet Bragg, the OGs and original architects of whole Food Wellness. Their organic apple cider vinegar is a perfect, perfect example of thoughtful, clean nutrition. It's non GMO, USDA organic, produced in the USA with absolutely no additives or processed sugars. Made with 100% apples and naturally fermented, of course. It's kind of like this perfect and versatile and super healthy addition to salad dressings and a wide variety of recipes for this tangy, nutritious boost. From the very beginning of my personal adventures in nutrition and well being 18 years ago. Bragg. I gotta tell you was the first brand I turned to. I actually talk about this in my book Finding Ultra, which came out 13 years ago. And it's a brand that I've remained unwaveringly loyal to because their products are best in class, because of their insane commitment to quality, because they're a B corp, which speaks volumes about their integrity and commitment to the ethics of both health and production. And not for nothing, because Bragg is a brand that's been doing things right for over 100 years. 100. A century of walking their talk. So check it out. They've got tons of products and when you use the code richroll you will get 20% off your first order when you visit bragg.com visit bragg.com b r a g g.com to get your daily dose of wellness. After many, many years of sharing my plant based journey, a common question that I just get all the time is how do I actually make this work in my daily life? And this is precisely why we created the Plant Power Meal Planner. But this meal planner is way more than just meal planning. It's actually designed to help you nourish inward and thrive outward by simplifying healthy eating, supercharging your nutrition, and helping you to stay on track with relative ease. As a Plant Power Meal Planner member, you unlock powerful tools to transform your health and take charge of your plate. Based on your preferences, you'll gain access to literally thousands of nutritionist and chef crafted recipes rooted in the plant Power lifestyle, allowing you to build vibrant health from the inside out. And what sets this apart is complete personalization. You can create unlimited, fully customizable menus that fit your goals, your routine and your taste buds. So if you need guidance, that's on check too. Get one on one support from expert food coaches who are right there for you to help you succeed. We've streamlined the entire process. You can breeze through grocery storage shopping with smart lists that take the guesswork out of it and you can enjoy convenient delivery in most major cities and score exclusive member only deals on aligned brands. So check it out. It's also incredibly [e-mail] and use the code RICHROLL for $10 off your membership, take charge of your plate today. When it works, it's transcendent.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Rich Roll]

And it lives forever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Rich Roll]

You know, it really is an incredibly powerful thing and Ira is like the ultimate, you know, mentor, guru of storytelling and you have this opportunity to like learn the craft with him and you talk about it all the time in your podcast. But you know this guy has X ray vision when it comes to story and what works and what's not working about it in ways that, you know, mere mortals can't see. What is it that he has and how does he deconstruct stories?

[Mike Birbiglia]

If he were here, he would say it's the sheer amount of stories that he's edited that has made him so sharp. He's one of these. He's one of these fierce believers of. It's not talent. It's like, I worked for this, I figured this out. I do it over and over and over again. And I think he's, of course, a cheater, so I'll argue with him about that. But I think he has five or ten things that he believes about what should be in a story. And he's just very rigorous about making sure that that is there. And one of the biggest things he's taught me over the years is that the best way to tell a story is you tell a little bit of plot and then how you feel about the plot and then a little more plot and then how you feel about the plot. And he said to me years ago, he goes, you have this lucky thing, which is you have jokes, and jokes is your version of how I feel about the plot. So the time where you might lose the audience, they're actually laughing and so they're engaged.

[Rich Roll]

Right. The other thing that he talks about and that you talk about all the time is this idea of structuring the story so there's never a situation in which it's in. And then it's always a. So then, like everything is propelling the next thing forward.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's like a. That's the thing he talks about. I think Pixar talks about. That's in their storytelling book, which is great. It's. Whenever a young storyteller asks me for advice, I always say, just get really nerdy on the causality of the story. It's like I jumped through the second story window sleepwalking. So then I walked to the front desk and explained what happened. So then he told me to go to the hospital. So then I got into the rental car. So then I drove to the hospital. So then I flew home and I saw a doctor. So then if a story essentially has a so then structure, the audience is always waiting for what the next thing is. And they're always. And the key thing is, like, when you're breaking apart a story is if the audience gets ahead of the story and they know what's going to happen, it actually becomes Boring.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so that's why I workshopped this show, the good life in 70 cities. And what I'm looking for a lot of times is, where are the laughs and where is the audience ahead of me? When do they know they can anticipate where this is going?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. The predictability of it. There's also the part of identifying which stories or what aspects of these stories are actually important and which aren't. And when you're talking about yourself, there's many things that you could say, well, I could tell this story, this story, this story, but what is the story that actually is driving forward, like, the theme or the point that I'm trying to make and being rigorous and saying, yeah, this story's really funny, but it actually isn't like, speaking to the underlying kind of, like, idea that I'm trying to get to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So when I'm developing these shows, I probably write about three or four hours of material in a show that ends up being about an hour 15. So it's essentially like, three times as much material as ends up being in the show. And a lot of the bits that I cut are pretty good. Some of them are great. Some of them. My brother Joe collaborates with me on some of the shows, and sometimes he'll just be like, you're taking out the rap song about drugs. And I'm like, yeah, it's a funny story, but it's.

[Rich Roll]

But story's king. You can't hold onto the funny thing if it's not moving the story forward. Every comedy director will try. Tell you that, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, absolutely. And my director, Seth Barish, who's directed my last five specials and all of these solo shows, he and I will have painful conversations about. He'll go, I just don't. This story, I don't get anything from it. I get that it's funny, but I don't get how it relates to the story you're telling. And he won't say, you have to cut it, but he'll just go, that's how I'm experiencing it. And those are painful conversations.

[Rich Roll]

Well, this gets to the idea of working it out. Like everything you learned from Aira and the way that you, you know, workshop and craft these shows, you solicit input and feedback from other people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

True.

[Rich Roll]

And then you created this podcast, Working It Out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

During COVID Is that when you started it, five years old, where you bring on your buddies and other people, other creative people who are working on things, and you share what you're working on and you give Each other feedback. And I think, like, it's funny and it's just enjoyable on a surface level to, like, you know, hear you, like, talk to all these people. But I actually think it's a real public service because you're modeling this practice of being open to other people's perspectives on your work, which is something that is essential if you're a creative person in order to, you know, make the best version of your project. But is a real life skill that I think most people lack because we over identify with whatever we're doing, and we're defensive. We're not receptive or open to other people saying, hey, maybe don't do this and look at this instead.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Rich Roll]

And when you. And, you know, whether it's. Whoever it is, John Mulaney or Pete Holmes or Judd Apatow, to watch you guys kind of get together and say, you know what? That thing that's not working. Here's why. And be excited about that. Like, oh, cool. Tell me more about that. Is a way of showing people, like, this is a way of being in the world also with your own behavior. Because I don't think you can grow or change or evolve or achieve your goals or manifest whatever it is you're trying to do unless you can learn how to model that very behavior.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's funny. Yeah. It is a little bit like the Silicon Valley version of open sourcing, where you just say, like, here's the code. Here's how we did it. You can do your version of it. It's basically like. And it's something that comedians for many years, and myself included, have been very resistant to, which is like, showing people how it's done and what it looks like along the way, because it's a vulnerability. When you go out and you perform your best 10 minutes of standup comedy, you don't do versions of the jokes that just aren't there yet. And as a result, if you go out and you kill for 10 minutes, people just go, oh, that guy's a genius. Right? They go like, that guy doesn't miss. That guy's just home runs all day. And if you show an audience that, oh, they don't start like that. The jokes don't start like that. There's a vulnerability that you're risking where people go, oh, no, he's not a genius. He's actually like me. He's just someone thinking about this and working on it and trying and failing. And it was during COVID that I was like, well, I don't want to give away My jokes, but, like, in their early form. But why not? Why not try it? And then what happened was, by the time people started performing again in front of audiences, my audiences were, like, two or three times as big as they were before the podcast because people wanted to see where the jokes started and where they ended up. And so it was like a kind of an awesome experience.

[Rich Roll]

But as a comedian, you have to have a healthy relationship with failure and imperfection because you're constantly getting up and working on stuff that isn't working, and you have to deal with people who aren't laughing and all of that. So I feel like more than most people, like, you're engaging with your own limitations publicly in a way that most people don't or don't have to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. But with typically smaller audiences. So, like, I would, like, I would go to the Comedy Cellar for years and work on jokes that I thought were pretty good but could be great. And then once they got great, I would bring them out to the theater tour. But this is like recording and filming, working out things that are just not done.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's a weird level of trust. It's a trust that the audience is smart enough at home to go, no, no, we've seen him do it well, so we're comfortable seeing him do it not well and not judge him for it.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. What I take away from it is just leaning into being open to. Like, you have to choose the people who you're going to expose your work to. Right. Like, you can't just do it to everyone, but how vital it is to be receptive to other people's perspectives and to be objective about your own blind spot. To, like, have the humility. Like, in order to create something great, you have to have. You have to believe in yourself, but you have to have the humility to know that you don't. You can't see all of it. And there are other people who can make it better.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think, like, that was why, in some ways, like, when I first moved to New York, I wanted to have comedians who were mentors, and I didn't really have that as much. But that's why when Ira came along, Ira became something of a mentor, and I feel like that's why my comedy veered in that direction.

[Rich Roll]

Do you feel that your success in doing your comedy in this way is now influencing other comedians to follow in suit with their version? I mean, Andrew Scholz's show follows a narrative through line in a way that. That is a little bit different than Most of what you see in these comedy specials. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I talked to him when he was developing that, and I gave him a couple thoughts on things he could do. But, yeah, I think it's out there. I think that I've been part of a series of Hannukadsby shows are like that. I've been part of of. I would say the last decade of comedy has moved towards narrative storytelling much more than when I started. And, you know, when I moved to New York in 2000, it was like no one was really doing stories.

[Rich Roll]

But you come out of Georgetown. When did you graduate Georgetown?

[Mike Birbiglia]

2000.

[Rich Roll]

2000. You moved to New York right after that. But at Georgetown. You're at Georgetown at the same time or in the same range as Mulaney, John Mulaney and Nick Kroll, which is insane.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Even beyond that. Bradley Cooper.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, that's right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So Bradley Cooper was in a theater company called Nomadic Theater Company. We were the Georgetown Players Improv Group. In my screenwriting class was Jonah Nolan, who has co written.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Those Batman movies and the Prestige and all these brilliant things. He was in my screenwriting class.

[Rich Roll]

It's like, it's so funny, though, because Georgetown, it's not like, you know, USC or nyu. It's like, you don't go to Georgetown to be in the entertainment industry. You go there to become a senator, you know, and so here you go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so. It is so confusing, and it hasn't been repeated.

[Rich Roll]

It's not like, oh, you know, every couple years, amazing talent is coming out of Georgetown and making its way to Hollywood.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it was so, so utterly strange because I remember in college thinking, like, everyone's really good.

[Rich Roll]

And then cut to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, a ton of people are like luminaries in the businesses. Like, you know, the director of my improv group was James Murray, who now has a show, Impractical Jokers, that's like a mega hit tv, like, prank TV series. And like, they were just, for whatever reason, like a bumper crop of people. It's like the Malcolm Gladwell theory of, I think outliers, which is like that groups of people are overachieving is good for each other because it kind of demonstrates that for the other person and they kind of see a through line for it.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, like Seattle and grunge music.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. That's right. So like, even, like, Mulaney wasn't. He was a year after I graduated. So I cast Nick Kroll, and then Nick Kroll cast John Mulaney. But then I came back to visit Georgetown like a year later. I met John, I met Jacqueline Novak, who's another one, who's a brilliant comedian. And it just, we all became friends. And then when John moved to New York, he like opened for me for a little bit. And he, you know, he said this before. It's like, it's a thing where you see, you see someone else do it. Something that's unorthodox as a job. And you go, oh, I guess that could be a job, which I think is a huge part of it.

[Rich Roll]

But it's not like it's set in motion. A wave, right? Where then the people who are younger than John then saw that and then they came up. It didn't become a self perpetuating situation. So this is where I asked the question that Ira Glass would ask, which is like, what do you make of that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, what do you make of that? The. I think it is the outliers phenomenon, which is. There was a bunch of people. I mean, for starters, my screenwriting playwriting professor is a guy named John Glavin, who has taught for so many years at Georgetown. Revered, also, little feared. My first week in class, I. He told me I was late or something. And then I think he told me not to come back. And it was kind of like, felt like West Point or something. Like, he was just like, no, no, you're not in the class anymore. I was like, so I went to office hours, like, no, this is really important to me. I really want to pursue screenwriting. His classes were so hard. You'd hand him a script, you'd hand him a screenplay or short film, and he would write things like, no on the top. And you'd just be like, this is craz. But then like, but I kind of.

[Rich Roll]

Did he do that on Jonathan Nolan's scripts?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe? I mean, you'd have to ask, but I think so. Like, he was so tough. But then it was interesting because I remember sitting in John Glavin's office hours one day and we're talking about the different people in class and he goes, jonah. He goes, jonah's gonna be a major screenwriter. I was like, oh. And now, you know, I'm like 20 years old in Washington D.C. going, okay, you know what I mean? Jonah Nolan, who, you know, works at Eagle Liquors, and you know what I mean? Like, he's just the guy.

[Rich Roll]

But then you move to New York and you're almost immediately on Letterman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Almost immediately. Felt like a long time.

[Rich Roll]

Well, was it two years, maybe?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Two years it was.

[Rich Roll]

But still, to be that young after.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A year of being in New York, I got a thing that's hard to get, which is Montreal Comedy Festival, New Faces, which in comedy is a big deal because, like, Ray Romano got it and then he got a sitcom. There was seemingly a pathway for that to be how you get introduced to the industry. In my group was like. Like Kevin Hart, Demetri Martin, like a bunch of people. We were the new faces that year. Yeah, it was like 20, 23 years old. And then the booker of Letterman, Eddie Brell, saw me at Montreal and he said, I think we could put together a set for Letterman. And it's going to take a while. We're gonna have to work on it. And we did. We worked on it for about a year, and then I was on it at 24. And that really. Yeah, really changed my career.

[Rich Roll]

So it was still in the period of time in which something like that could be an incredible lever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it was. I mean, I was touring. I was touring the country, as quote, unquote, the youngest comedian to ever be on the Letterman. This is not. I don't even think it's true.

[Rich Roll]

I'm sure that went over really well when you would show up at the comedy clubs with the other comedians.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't even think it's true, actually. I looked it up once. I think. I think the two younger people were Chappelle and Bobcat Goldthwaite.

[Rich Roll]

Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I think Chappelle did it when he was, like, 19 or something, and Bobcat maybe when he was 20 or 22. But, no, it didn't go over well. That was a hard era for me, because it was. I had a lot of success fast, and then there were some resentments, and. And I was too young to navigate it well. And so I ended up, I don't know, just in, like, stickier conversations with people that I wish I'd never had. And I feel like I'm still kind of at age 46, like, reliving those conversations in my brain.

[Rich Roll]

Is this like a situation in which you and Marc Maron have to sit down and rehash some bullshit from way back?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I talked to Maren last week on the phone, and we're talking. Talking about stuff that happened 20 years ago. I mean, it's. Well. Cause I was. My first solo show was called Sleepwalk with Me, and it was at the Bleecker Street Theater, and he was doing a solo show in the basement of that theater at the same time. And then I invited him to come see the show, and he Was like, fuck you. And it's like the whole thing. And of course, Mark and I. I put him in my movie when I made Seabawk. In the movie, he's like the mentor comedian character. But, yeah, I mean, it's like those relationships you have in your 20s, like, you somehow never live down. You never live down how immature you were or the ways that you put your foot in your mouth and all that.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. I feel like Marin's podcast could have also been called Working it Out. You know, it's like he started it to, you know, basically repair all these relationships.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, completely. And it's. But what was interesting about my 20s was that I got that big break and I was touring the country, and then that's when I started to tell stories, probably when I was, like, 25, 26, 27 years old. And so this thing where I got into it with that look at me. Energy of like, oh, I'm funny, look at me. I started to tell stories and really connect with people and go, oh, this is really kind of like. Like just a meaningful experience. Like.

[Rich Roll]

But wasn't necessarily a path. Well, trodden at that point. Like, the paradigm was go on Letterman and then, you know, develop a sitcom.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Rich Roll]

There's a parallel universe where, you know, there was a. I think this even almost happened, right, where there was going to be, you know, a sitcom, and then you could have spent 10 years doing that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

100%. Yeah. I got a sitcom deal with CBS. Well, first it was with NBC, then it was with CBS. You know, there's that whole thing. They go, you're the next Seinfeld, and you're the next this, and you're the next that. And I was believing it. I was like, yes, yes, this is true. And then we shoot the pilot, and it doesn't get picked up to series. And it was that kind of death by a thousand cuts artistically thing where you write the script based on your life, and then they say, change this, Change this. And you go, okay. And then you give it back, and they say, change this, change this. By the time the thing gets filmed, it's nothing like what you had written. And then it didn't get picked up. And thank God it didn't get picked up, because it ended up literally three months later. I came back to New York and I produced Sleepwalk with me off Broadway. My friend Eli Ganda produced it, and then Nathan Lane was willing to present it, and it was a big hit. And it kind of changed my whole. A big hit, a Humble off Broadway hit in New York City, but a hit hit in relation to what I had done previously.

[Rich Roll]

But also, it gives you this opportunity to flex your muscles in all these different ways. I mean, the moth to this American Life, to the One man show, and then the book, and then the movie that you wrote and directed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, and I'd always wanted to direct movies since I was basically studying screenwriting in college, and so that was a huge thing. And then four years later, I was able to direct Don't Think Twice. And. And now I'm actually. I'm getting ready. I'm writing my next movie. And so that's been. That's kind of a dream because, honestly, like, this. The Good Life Special is so close to the bone, personally, that I'm just like, I need to write fiction. Like, this is too much. I can't do this all the time.

[Rich Roll]

How many times have you performed that show?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, 70 cities on the tour, and in some cities, you know, two or three shows. So I would say, I would guess probably 400 times.

[Rich Roll]

Wow. It seemed like the Old man in the Pool was touring forever. Like, you were on the road incessantly with that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think Old man pool was, like, 120 cities. That was probably something in the universe of, like, six or 800 performances.

[Rich Roll]

Wow. And when I'm watching the new one, there's moments where I feel your emotion is real. Like, and I'm wondering, like, is he a really good actor, or is he still able to emotionally connect with this after performing it so many times and maybe just because now it's being filmed for Netflix.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, no, no. It's certainly like. Like, I remember the first time I got emotional on stage, and it was in Sleepwalk with me in 2008 at the Bleecker Street Theater. And I didn't know what to do, you know, because it came. I was, like, just choked up, talking about, you know, the doctor in the emergency room taking glass out of my legs and how close the glass was to my femoral artery and all this stuff. And I really was choked up. And I said to my director, Seth Barish, who's directed tons of plays, I go, what should I do if I feel like I'm getting choked up? And he. He goes, yeah, just live it, you know, like, that's what we're here for. Like, that's what live theater's for. We're for what happens. And so, like, with. With. With the Good Life, it's. It really is me. Every night I walk on stage and I think. I would think whatever happens tonight is the show. And yes, I have this line and this line and this, this story. It follows this story. And. But whatever happens with this audience is that's for, like, all of us.

[Rich Roll]

Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know what's funny? We don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes. I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run, constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them, or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense? Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first. But not at the cost of fashion, I should say, helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions, with everyday frames designed for movement. Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology. Patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions. And they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil. Super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next level. Razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20% off your order with code rich [e-mail] that's R O-K-A.com all of you who have been alongside me for this podcast, A Coaster Ride know that I am and have been for quite some time an avid user of and a partner with AG1. But this is not just another version of the shout out you've come come to expect. This is actually sort of breaking news because AG1 has just launched their new next generation nutritional formula. It's the same single scoop, you know, but now it's been significantly upgraded with more vitamins, minerals and upgraded probiotics. It's an upgrade that's of significant proportions based upon four human clinical trials that go above and beyond the industry standard in testing to make a great product even better. More specifically, specifically, the new formula has been optimized to improve absorption. New vitamins and new minerals have been added and AG1 has enhanced their probiotic blend. All part of their ongoing commitment to producing the best foundational nutritional supplement designed to support overall wellness. Now clinically backed with an advanced formula, this is the perfect time to try AG1 if you haven't yet. I've been drinking AG1 for many years now as I mentioned, and I'm so happy to be partnering with them. So subscribe today to try the next gen of AG1. If you use my link, you also get a free bottle of AG D3K2, an AG1 welcome kit, and five of the upgraded AG1 travel packs with your first order. So make sure to check out drinkag1.com richroll to get started with AG1's next gen and notice the benefits for yourself. That's drinkag1.com richroll and is the special one singular performance or did you Is it edited together from multiple it was.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mostly one we stole. We filmed for three nights. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, the Beacon Theater and then the Friday one was like the circle and then the circle take and then the other ones we've just like taken little patches from cause it was like a nice inspired moment.

[Rich Roll]

I won't spoil it. But the long term married couple in the audience, I mean that was a gift from God. That can't happen every night.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Every time we do that, well, it's always different. I can say what the question is to the audience. I always ask who's been married the longest. And then when people say how long they've been married, I say, if you're in a conversation with your wife or husband and it's kind of there's a silence or there's something in the air and you don't know what it is, do you probe or do you let it lie? And what's amazing is people's answers are never the same. The one in the special is hilarious, but like every night is hilarious in a. Like people's. When you get a. When you get an insight into people's marriages behind closed doors, it is fascinating. I feel like I might do a show just on that.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. The idea that everybody's marriage is, you know, impossible to understand.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. One night a guy goes, I probe. And I go, oh, you probe? He goes, I probe relentlessly. I'm like, what does that look like?

[Rich Roll]

Be fun to live with that guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, there's a lot of people when they answer that question, you're like, oh, this person's a lot. And then you're like, everyone's a lot. Maybe.

[Rich Roll]

But it's all in the context of trying to understand how to be married. Like, nobody taught me how to Be married completely.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. That's what I bring up in the show is this idea of, like, I'm trying to teach my daughter all these things, but, like, no one taught me how to be married. No one gave me a sex talk. No one told me about drugs. No one told me, like, so. So in a certain way, we're all just winging it all the time. But with marriage particularly, I mean, I just, like, I have no idea.

[Rich Roll]

Meanwhile, we want our parents to answer these questions or, like, lead the way. But it's our kids who are real teachers. Like, Una, is this sort of in between the lines in your show is she's the teacher because she's pointing out the things that you need to learn and explore. Right. And so as much as you wanted your dad to do that or you lament the fact that he didn't, she's right there to kind of highlight the journey that you need to go on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, that's right.

[Rich Roll]

And that's what kids do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. No, and it's powerful.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's something I never would have expected in my life. I mean, that's what my whole show, which was called the new one on Broadway, was about how I never wanted to have a child and all the reasons I never wanted to have a child and how I had a child and how why I was right and then ultimately why I was wrong. That's sort of the emotional turn.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, one, your relationship with your daughter is borderline an obsession. That's how it comes across sometimes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's why I'm taking a break from the autobiographical stuff and making a movie where people can go, okay, enough Mike Birbiglia for now. We can just see his movies.

[Rich Roll]

She asks you a question that is the kind of inciting incident for the show. But how would you answer this question? If Una put it to you, daddy, what is creativity?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, what's creativity? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. You know, my brother Joe has this great one, a great answer for that, which is. He always describes comedy writing as letting your brain go for a walk. You know, and it's like, in some ways, I think that's what it is. In a way, that's what creativity is.

[Rich Roll]

What does that mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Letting go of essentially, what are the stringent aspects of your life? I have to be at this appointment at this time. I should eat at this time and just going, I'm just gonna let my imagination run wild. You know, like, sometimes my daughter will be, like, daydreaming. And Jenny and I, my wife and I are always like, great. You know what I mean? Like, daydreaming is great. Daydreaming is everything. Like, Mitch Hedberg is one of my favorite comedians of all time and sadly passed many years ago. But like, he always said that daydreaming is what is. Is what joke writing is.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, that's the juice. So how do you hold on to that? I mean, you've got a journal in front of you right now. It's all like dog eared. Like, what is the practice?

[Mike Birbiglia]

The practice, the daily practice is just like me writing in my journal every morning about how I feel. A lot of it's how I feel, you know, so it's like, you know, this is what I've been doing. This is what my day is like. This is what I always say. Like, this is in the old man in the pool. I say, I find that if I write in my journal what I'm saddest about or angriest about, I can start to see my life as a story. And if you see your life as a story, you can start to encourage the main character to make better decisions. I feel like that's like this in a nutshell. And then what happens is you write down what happened. And often when you write it, the moment you write it, it is infuriating. It's the thing you're mad about and you read it a couple months later and you go, that's pretty funny. The guy who wrote that doesn't know what's gonna happen the next day.

[Rich Roll]

And how do you know when an idea has leg to take it further? If you're just writing tons of stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All the time, a lot of it's conversational. So like, you know, it's so funny because, like, so much of it is iterative. With the way that my standup comedy is iterative, like doing in front of like with jokes. It's like doing it in front of audiences, seeing what is getting laughter and then, and then writing towards that, writing in that direction. And even with my movies, it's like, Don't Think Twice was a really basic idea. It's like, what if there's a group of friends in an improv group and one of them gets cast on Saturday Night Live and then the rest of them don't. And what happens in those friendships when that happens? And I would say that to people casually, I'm working on this movie and that's the premise. And they would go, oh my God, that's just like my life. That's just like me and my band. That's Just like, me and my friend group from college, whatever. And that's when I knew I was like, oh, okay. This isn't just me. This is, like, everybody. Everybody.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. That's interesting. Is that something you've just developed over time, or is it like, you do it in the morning, or you just take it with you and you're doing it throughout the day?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And what's funny is I have, like, you know, I have 50 of these, and they're just around my house.

[Rich Roll]

And you go back and you read them?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Some of them, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Cause I'll journal tons, but then I never go back and look at.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. It's a lot. Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A lot.

[Rich Roll]

I want to hear about the Pope story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Rich Roll]

I don't want to spoil this special.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, sure.

[Rich Roll]

Whatever you're willing to share about this, because this is kind of an amazing thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, the Pope, Pope Francis had this thought, which was he wanted to invite comedians to the Vatican to speak about comedy, which I make the joke in the special. I go, he talked to us about comedy, which is. Which is a great example of power corrupting. If you get so confident as a priest, you're like, I should invite Chris Rock over and tell him my thoughts about comedy. Because that's who it was. It was like, Chris Rock and Conan o' Brien and Julia Louis Dreyfus, Whoopi Goldberg, all these people. I mean, it was crazy.

[Rich Roll]

This was like a year ago, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly a year ago. And Jim Gaffigan called me. I think Colbert. Stephen Colbert had called him, and he said, hey, you're on this list. And my first inclination was to say no. I mean, I just thought Catholic Church. I grew up in the 80s in Massachusetts. I mean, I wasn't abused. But if you read anything about this stuff, it's so many people. And one of the most powerful movies I've ever seen is Tom McCarthy's movie Spotlight. About that, which is, if people haven't seen that is, I think, one of the great movies of the last 25 years.

[Rich Roll]

So the. The reluctance has to do with your own personal relationship to Catholicism, but also, you don't want to be, like, involved in the. In the, you know, like, laundering of its new image 100%.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then what happened was, is I was with my dad, and I told my dad this, and he. He was like, oh, you know, he was like, you know, Grandpa Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, like, he couldn't believe it. And then I said, now you might.

[Rich Roll]

Finally be Able to get the attention of your dad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly.

[Rich Roll]

All your ethics and moral principles go out the window.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's funny you should say that. Ira pointed that out. Ira Glass pointed that out. He goes, you know, the thing you're not saying in your show is that your dad wouldn't have done that for you, but you did it for your dad because he wouldn't have. It was some comedy legend or something. He wouldn't have gone to see the comedy legend for you because you're interested in comedy. But, yeah, there was that. There was my dad of it, who had been through a stroke and all that. And then there was. I just started doing research on Pope Francis, and I'm just going, okay, well, everything is compared to everything else. And, you know, compared to other popes, this guy's great. You know what I mean? But only compared to other popes. If you met him at a party, you'd be like, this fucking guy. But compared to other popes, he's amazing. And he blessed gay couples in the church, and he advocated for refugees. And he was very critical of America in these ways that were very bold. And I just thought, you know, this guy's really special. And this is an unbelievable invitation. The idea that someone would invite me to something like this is a real honor. And I went and I say it in the special, like, the things he said. But a lot of it had to do with, like, humor has the power to unite people, bring people together. When you make a joke and one audience member laughs, that God laughs, which is sweet. And I thought it was very moving. I thought it was very heartfelt. And I thought being in his presence, we went up and he shook his hand and took a photo and said two words. And I just thought, this is a peaceful person who believes in or seemingly believes in the real message of Jesus Christ. And I do think that that's very good. I think that what's happened to various churches from Jesus Christ's message, I think, is wild. But I think that at its core, the idea of selflessness and self sacrifice and being kind to people who are sick and downtrodden is beautiful.

[Rich Roll]

And perhaps the Vatican did a very good job with its propaganda machine, pr, in changing your perspective.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The PR machine over there is wrong.

[Rich Roll]

But you had finished. I assume you'd already taped the special by the time he passed away. He just passed away recently, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly. So then we thank him in the credits.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. I was gonna say, had you still been on tour with this and not yet taped it, would you have added a button to that, that might have had something to do with J.D. vance.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's really funny. Maybe there is a, there is a.

[Rich Roll]

Low hanging fruit joke in there somewhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I almost never reference people who are cultural figures, especially ones who one might hope might be short term cultural figures. And so, yeah, I wouldn't have included that probably with that.

[Rich Roll]

I had, I saw your movie the Sleepwalk with me and I've heard you tell that story a bunch of times, but for some reason I didn't know something about that story that you talk about in the new special, which is the fact that for 20 years you've been taking Klonopin basically every night.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

That is wild.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is, right?

[Rich Roll]

That is such a powerful drug.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you, what are your concerns?

[Rich Roll]

I don't know. I went to, to, dude, I went to rehab with people who were there strictly because of their Klonopin habit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you know what the dosage was?

[Rich Roll]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Rich Roll]

I'm sure it was. Well, of course it was more intense. But it's also highly addictive.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know.

[Rich Roll]

And so you're able to take, what do you take? A milligram and a half?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, well, I used to take, I used to take one and a half, but I, I taper. I used to take two and then I took one and a half. I've tapered it down to one. I take one milligram. I don't know.

[Rich Roll]

But this is to treat the rapid eye movement disorder that caused you to sleep well, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

And you're able to do that and, and like it not be dysfunctional. That's why, that's, that's really something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Coffee in the morning.

[Rich Roll]

That one milligram would have escalated quickly in my life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, really?

[Rich Roll]

What do you do if you have that disorder but you're like a, you know, a drug addict in recovery?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God.

[Rich Roll]

Is there another treatment for that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's amazing is like there wasn't. It's not like there was a case study for people jumping through second story windows sleepwalking. It's not. I was the guy that, that's why, you know, I'm in the, I'm in the DSM as the example because they don't have a ton of examples of, of people doing stuff like this. So. And, and then weirdly like, and I say this in the special that they don't even know for sure if that's what I have because it's such a young field of medicine. You know, sleep medicine is, I think it's from the 70s, you know what I mean? Like, it's not that recent or it's not that old.

[Rich Roll]

There's something interesting about the fact that, you know, fundamentally, it's a neurological disorder of some form. Right. And your dad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Not lost in me. Neurologist, cry for health.

[Rich Roll]

Like, what's happening? You know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, I know. No, sure. We could talk about this all day. I mean, I don't know what to say.

[Rich Roll]

I know, but I am in this process of trying to find grace in my relationship with my parents, particularly my mother, who's suffering. And it's challenging, man, to let go of all that baggage and, you know, find that place of empathy and. And when they're in the later stages of life or they're suffering health situations, it's easier to do that. And I still find I can still feel my own resistance around it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I mean, with my dad, it's like he would shout when I was a kid, and that was very hard. And he had just a hot temper. And then the first joke that I was able to make to even a lot of these things as a comedian, you go like, well, maybe I could try talking about that as a topic. But then your dad having a stroke, the audience goes silent if you bring that up as a topic. But that. My first joke was. It's devastating, But I will say it has calmed him down. And it was funny because it was like that church laugh. Is that kind of. Not everyone's laughing, but a few people are laughing really hard at it. And I was like, okay, that's kind of my way into this. And I will say, like, to your point about your mom, it's like I have, in a certain way, gotten closer to my dad than I have been in my entire life through this horrible ailment.

[Rich Roll]

How is he doing now?

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's okay. I mean, he had pneumonia and the flu a few weeks ago, and. And so he was in and out of the hospital. But what's amazing is how sharp he is about. I'll talk to him about me having a sickness or something like that, and he'll diagnose it. His doctor brain is sharp as a tack. His memory, particularly his memory of the last year, is tough, but he doesn't have. What's interesting, he doesn't have the temper he did when I was a kid. And so it's like, you take out that thing, and you do start to see him more as a person.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. I think the practice of asking the questions you never asked about their life, rather than waiting for them to Be interested in yours, like showing interest in theirs 100%. That's the mending energy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that that's. And, yeah, I think that that's where. That's where the special lands as an idea. And I think it's absolutely. What I would recommend to people who have challenges with their parents is just ask. Ask questions.

[Rich Roll]

What about people who are challenged with their own creativity? Maybe they would like to be more creative or they're inspired by your storytelling. You know, talent and facility. Do you think everybody has a story to tell? And if so, what is the. What is the advice or the practice of helping people connect with the stories in their own lives that might be important for them to explore?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think, like, you know, I always tell people to journal. I think writing and. And rereading your own work and then repeating just over and over and over again is great. I think that building a community of creatives and it could be as small as two or three people is great. I mean, I feel like my entire creative life changed when I met my improv group in college. I think that's why I ended up making the movie Don't Think Twice kind of about this improv group, because I was so obsessed with this idea of life. Like, oh, my God, there's people like me who just want to just goof around in this way that's just unfiltered and go in kind of wild directions and explore their creativity. And that can be. In an improv class that could be asking a group of friends to read. Everyone could read their essays that they wrote or stories they wrote or screenplays or plays that they wrote, and everyone can play a part. Even my last movie, I invited a bunch of friends to come over and read the screenplay in my living room, and people gave their thoughts, and it was just a good hang. The thing about creativity is you want it to get to a point where you're a productive and creating a lot of things because there's so much trial and error, and it's mostly error. And then you want that to coincide with it being just kind of a fun hang with a few friends, because then you're not alone in it.

[Rich Roll]

Did you see that video that has been swirling around kind of virally the past couple days of Jordan Peele talking about writing and storytelling?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I thought it was really interesting where.

[Rich Roll]

He'S like, it's supposed to be fun.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's supposed to be fun.

[Rich Roll]

And it gets that idea you were saying of like, you know, writing the story you want to tell and you would like to read or watch on a screen.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. No. I think Jordan Peele is one of the great visionaries of film and TV in the last 20, 30 years. And I think he completely has the right idea. When I saw get out in the theater, I think I saw it opening weekend and I just remember going, oh, yeah, this is like. This is best picture, best screenplay, Best, Best movie. Like, this is like, this guy clearly wanted to make this movie.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean? Like, it has so much. Just like, it's teeming with that kind of, like, inspiration.

[Rich Roll]

Well, yeah, and it's just. It's undeniable, you know, in a weird way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I think, like, my recommendation to people in the creative space is to not do the things you like, but do the things you love, because no one's paying you anyway. You know what I mean?

[Rich Roll]

And even if they are, nobody's really waiting for your thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no. I feel like in the creative spaces, a lot of times what ends up happening is you have people who. They sign up for a lot of things that they sort of like and they're sort of interested in. And that's fine when you're in the kind of early stages of trying to figure out what it is you love. But at a certain point, I think you gotta go hard at what you love, because that's the thing that's really rewarding.

[Rich Roll]

And all you have is your unique voice. That's the only differentiator.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Years ago, I wrote this piece for the New York Times, and it was called Six Tips for Making it Small in Hollywood, which is how I viewed this.

[Rich Roll]

I like on your website, you have an advice. Literally, it's like bio shows, schedule advice, advice. You know why?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because I got so many of my emails from people were asking for advice. I'm like, I just gotta put this up there so people can see.

[Rich Roll]

It's New York Times articles where you're like, here's what I would do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Six tips for making small in Hollywood. And one of them is do what you love instead of what you like. And this was Ira Glass's one that he gave to me, which is a start. Now it's like, there's no reason to wait. And also, also weirdly, like, no one's like, if you're looking to pursue a creative job, it's like, just know, like, you're never going to get rich from it, probably. And it doesn't matter, because if you love doing it, it doesn't matter. You can have another job and you can do that too.

[Rich Roll]

It reminds me of that speech that Mark Duplass gave at south by Southwest about like. Like, they're not. Nobody's coming to save you. Like, nobody's coming to save you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Nobody's coming to save you. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

The moment is right now. Like, if you want to make a thing, like, you're going to have to. You know, the bad news is, is you're going to have to make it yourself. But the good news is you get to make it yourself, basically, is the idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No. And Mark is amazing. I remember seeing Puffy Chair, one of his first movies at Nantucket Film Festival. My wife and I saw it and it's brilliant, brilliant movie. And I didn't know him. I know he and I are friends now, but I didn't know him at the time. But that's the other thing. It's like, go to film festivals, go to one act play festivals. Like, if you're a creative and you want to be in the world of it, it's like, just go to the things that the creatives are making and they're doing. It's like, I can't tell you how many people through the years, years I've seen in the audience of a UCB theater show or interning at UCB Theater, Improv theater in New York. And then one day you go, oh, they're on the Office.

[Rich Roll]

Because when you're in it, you're just like, oh, that's just whoever, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, absolutely. I remember I used to rent my. I had an office, like a real, you know, rinky dink office in New York City where I would do creative work and then I would rent it out to improv groups to help pay for the rent. And Ellie Kemper used to come all the time and like had an improv group where she practiced and just be my crazy improv space. And then it's like one day I'm like, she's at the office. This is crazy. She's on Bridesmaids. She's like a major star. This is crazy. But it's like, what's weird is those kind of are the people who are in the proximity of creative spaces consistently, and they're consistently getting better, making mistakes, learning. Those are the people that end up eventually getting the larger slots in art and art culture.

[Rich Roll]

Proximity, just making sure they push through that door and then stay there. A lot of it is just, just about like the refusal to stop doing it or walk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

100%. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

You know, once you've been around for a while, then you're like, you look around and like, all these people, you know, that you. That you've, you know, knew way back when are all, like, when you get older, these are the people who are now in charge.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. No, it's crazy.

[Rich Roll]

Which is like, encouraging, but also like, we're in big trouble.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah, we're in big trouble.

[Rich Roll]

That guy, like, nobody knows anything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Trust me, you know, 100%. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Which maybe that is good because it like lowers the bar like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, completely.

[Rich Roll]

That's really funny. I. In a past life, I made a short film called Down Dog that I wrote and directed that was sort of a parody of the LA yoga scene and did it, did a little film festival circuit run. And I remember I was at the Bend Film Festival with this thing. And that's when the puffy chair was there and Mark was there. And, you know, I ended up meeting him and like hanging out with him that weekend or whatever. And it's like that was the incessant perception of what, you know, what would become a really huge career for him and his brother.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, truly.

[Rich Roll]

Which is inspiring.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Are you still swimming? How's the pool?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I swim, truthfully, because I'm on the east Coast. I swim mostly in the summer, but. But yeah, I do. I do swim and now my daughter's great at swimming, so I go to like the swim meets.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, now you're a swim meet dad?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Rich Roll]

Sitting. I mean, kids, swim meets are. They're just interminably long and you're sitting in these overly chlorinated environments. I mean, my dad did this for me when I was a kid. You know, that's a way of me, like, feeling compassion and empathy. I'm like, poor guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. No, absolutely no.

[Rich Roll]

But just 10,000 heats of the 25 yard breaststroke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I gotta get back to the YMCA. I've been doing different things. Things physically, but yeah, the health is okay, though. Health is good right now. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Cool.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Well, this was great, man. I love talking to you. This is really fun. I think the new special is fantastic. And you are a master storyteller. And I think it's a real gift that you give all of us to show us how powerful story is. And the Pope is right, you know, like, not only comedy, but it is the storytelling aspect of your comedy in particular that I think is needed connective tissue in our, you know, divided world at the moment.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks a lot, Rich. That means a lot to me and I'm glad we did this.

[Rich Roll]

It's super fun, man. Anytime. You're always welcome here. Maybe five years from now when your.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Schedule online years in the making. Cheers dude. Thanks. All right, thank you.

[Rich Roll]

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode [e-mail] where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books Finding Ultra Voicing, Change and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power meal [e-mail] if you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe. Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsor and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any [e-mail] Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Sepulcher, Boy copywriting by Ben Prior, and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Namaste. It.